NBA: Open Court - All Decade Teams (60s, 70s, 80s, 90s & 00s) [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 03:11 AM

kareem 1980s =

21/8/3 average

Championships
1980 Los Angeles Lakers (NBA)
1982 Los Angeles Lakers (NBA)
1985 Los Angeles Lakers (NBA)
1987 Los Angeles Lakers (NBA)
1988 Los Angeles Lakers (NBA)

allstar games
1980 NBA
1981 NBA
1982 NBA
1983 NBA
1984 NBA
1985 NBA
1986 NBA
1987 NBA
1988 NBA
1989 NBA

awards

1984-85 NBA Finals MVP
1979-80 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)

probly should be 1980 finals mvp aswell

jordan? what the ever loving shit did that ****** do in the 80s except get bum rushed by bird and zeke? LOL

plowking

10-30-2015, 03:51 AM

2010's

Stephen Curry
Dwayne Wade
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis

Wade has had two good seasons in this span. No way is he the 2010 SG.

Some players are just part of that middle ground, and don't really fit in certain cases.

KG and Dirk don't belong over Bron in 2000 either. Bron achieved more than both of them in that time.

brownmamba00

10-30-2015, 03:59 AM

00s

Kidd
Kobe
KG
TD
Shaq

You could put lebron in there too but KG's playoff run in 08 and his MVP season in 04 gives him the edge IMHO so I'd take Kidd/AI off the list before I take down KG who is underrated by the new generation because they didn't see him play in the early 00s.

Gileraracer

10-30-2015, 04:04 AM

and how the mother ****ing shit was jordan better than kareem in the 80s

lol

MJ (80s)
33.3PPG / 6.4 RPG / 6.1APG / 2.8 SPG / 1.1 BPG on .52FG%

Kareem (80s)
20.6PPG / 7.6 RPG / 2.8 APG / 0.7 SPG / 2 BPG / .56FG %

3ball

10-30-2015, 04:04 AM

and how the mother ****ing shit was jordan better than kareem in the 80s

MJ was DPOY and scoring leader in 1988.. Here's stats from 1987-1989:

Jordan 1987-1989 RS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1987-1989-sum:per_game): 34.9 ppg.. 6.2 rpg.. 6.1 apg.. 3.0 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 51.6% fg
Jordan 1987-1989 PO (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1987-1989-sum:playoffs_per_game): 35.4 ppg.. 7.0 rpg.. 6.5 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.6% fg

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:09 AM

Wade has had two good seasons in this span. No way is he the 2010 SG.

Some players are just part of that middle ground, and don't really fit in certain cases.

KG and Dirk don't belong over Bron in 2000 either. Bron achieved more than both of them in that time.

:oldlol:

Lebron:

All-Star Games
2005 NBA
2006 NBA
2007 NBA
2008 NBA
2009 NBA
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA MVP

Dirk:

All-Star Games
2002 NBA
2003 NBA
2004 NBA
2005 NBA
2006 NBA
2007 NBA
2008 NBA
2009 NBA
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA MVP

Garnett:

All-Star Games
2000 NBA
2001 NBA
2002 NBA
2003 NBA
2004 NBA
2005 NBA
2006 NBA
2007 NBA
2008 NBA
2009 NBA
1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1999-00 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA MVP
Championships
(Minimum 1 playoff game)
2008 Boston Celtics (NBA)

ShaqTwizzle

10-30-2015, 04:09 AM

MJ was DPOY and scoring leader in 1988..

Yeah except MJ wasn't the real DPOY in 1988 was he?
I am pretty sure that Hakeem with his 2+ steals and nearly 3+ blocks per game at the C position had considerably more impact on that end then Jordan did.
He carried a roster of literal no names to the 4th best defense that year.

Jordan on the other hand atleast had Pippen... a recognizable name and a GOAT defender.
He also had Oakley & Grant (both excellent defenders).

The voters that year for the DPOY award seemed to be doing alot of drugs.

An older Larry Bird who was not some fantastic defender finished 2nd after Jordan.
Magic Johnson (not a great defender) finished 3rd.

Charles f*ck**g Barkley finished 4th (ahead of Hakeem).

Dominique (terrible defender) was 6th just behind Drexler and just ahead of Hakeem who was 7th.

So yeah. DPOY voters that year were off their rocker or analysis back then just sucked.
The voting seems more like you'd see in an MVP vote then in a DPOY one.

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:10 AM

MJ was DPOY and scoring leader in 1988.. Here's stats from 1987-1989:

Jordan 1987-1989 RS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1987-1989-sum:per_game): 34.9 ppg.. 6.2 rpg.. 6.1 apg.. 3.0 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 51.6% fg
Jordan 1987-1989 PO (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1987-1989-sum:playoffs_per_game): 35.4 ppg.. 7.0 rpg.. 6.5 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.6% fg

and?

this trumps 5 titles/2 fmvps ?( realistically 2.. **** magic in 1980 wtf )

3ball

10-30-2015, 04:12 AM

Yeah except MJ wasn't the real DPOY in 1988 was he?

:facepalm

Another snotty-nosed teenager who wasn't alive in 1988 trying to rewrite history.

It's no different than some kid coming on here in 20 years saying "but Kawhi wasn't really the dpoy in 2014 was he?"

No... Sorry bud.. he was

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:12 AM

Yeah except MJ wasn't the real DPOY in 1988 was he?
I am pretty sure that Hakeem with his 2+ steals and nearly 3+ blocks per game at the C position had considerably more impact on that end then Jordan did.
He carried a roster of literal no names to the 4th best defense that year.
Jordan on the other hand atleast had Pippen... a recognizable name and a GOAT defender.

The voters that year for the DPOY award seemed to be doing alot of drugs.

An older Larry Bird who was not some fantastic defender finished 2nd after Jordan.
Magic Johnson (not a great defender) finished 3rd.

Charles f*ck**g Barkley finished 4th (ahead of Hakeem).

Dominique (terrible defender) was 6th just behind Drexler and just ahead of Hakeem who was 7th.

So yeah. DPOY voters that year were off their rocker or analysis back then just sucked.

this ^

jordans 88 mvp was suspect too

bird deserved that shit ( based on the general criteria... or else give kobe mvp in 2003 )

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:14 AM

:facepalm

Another snotty-nosed teenager who wasn't alive in 1988 trying to rewrite history.

It's no different than some kid coming on here in 20 years saying "but Kawhi wasn't really the dpoy in 2014 was he?"

No... Sorry bud.. he was

jordan was the man in the 90s

but common dude. even a big time jordan fan like yourself ( who routinely forgets that the 90s bulls were built on defense .. but none the less ) even you must know 1980s jordan got his ass kicked up and down the court night in and night out by isiah thomas and larry bird

ShaqTwizzle

10-30-2015, 04:26 AM

Ah.
Forgive my stupidity.
I clicked on DPOY voting for 1988 and for some reason BBRef showed me MVP voting.
I should have thought to check it after the ridiculous names it gave me.

The voting was actually.
1. Jordan (nearly all the votes)
2. Eaton
3. Hakeem

I still maintain that Hakeem was the DPOY that year.
4th best defense with a bunch of no names and zero notable defenders.

Bulls had 3rd best but they had a young Pippen, Oakley & Grant all amazing defenders and largely responsible for their team defensive excellence.

Also Jordans Bulls were only 0.2 better then Houston (basically nothing) in terms of their team defensive rating despite the huge roster/coaching/other advantages.

3ball

10-30-2015, 04:31 AM

even you must know 1980s jordan got his ass kicked up and down the court night in and night out by isiah thomas and larry bird

MJ's stats in the 80's were better than Kobe's career best season.

That's why Bird thought Jordan was god in basketball shoes.

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:32 AM

MJ's stats in the 80's were better than Kobe's career best season.

That's why Bird thought Jordan was the 2nd coming.

dude nobody ****in cares

you sound like a lebron stan right now

pippen saw lebrons stats and said he's the 3rd coming ...

sometimes stats lie bro

jordan was one of the rare stat padders that had successful title runs

3ball

10-30-2015, 04:34 AM

dude nobody ****in cares

you sound like a lebron stan right now

pippen saw lebrons stats and said he's the 3rd coming ...

sometimes stats lie bro
You're the one that said Bird was kicking MJ's ass up and down the court, so I figured it was relevant to point out that MJ's performance and stats in the 80's were better than Kobe's career best season

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:34 AM

talent/potential doesnt trump kareem in the 80s

its about substance and accolades/achievements

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:35 AM

You're the one that said Bird was kicking MJ's ass up and down the court, so I figured it was relevant to point out that MJ's performance and stats in the 80's were better than Kobe's career best season

allot of guys stats back in the day were better than kobes best seasons

different era. faster pace. less defense

was 80s jordan better than 90s jordan cause he had better all around numbers?

dude you sound like such a letard right now. you've gotten infected by dubeta. you think like them now

instead of promoting what counts you get into stat padding debates

3ball

10-30-2015, 04:37 AM

talent/potential doesnt trump kareem in the 80s

its about substance and accolades/achievements
:facepalm

it's no surprise that a kobe fan knows nothing about having to build a team from scratch and thinks it's normal to be gifted a top 5 all-time player upon entering the league.. :oldlol:

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:38 AM

:facepalm

it's no surprise that a kobe fan knows nothing about having to build a team from scratch and thinks it's normal to be gifted a top 5 all-time player upon entering the league.. :oldlol:

so your argument for jordan over kareem is basically letard fans argument for lebron over jordan

i see

yup.. you went full retard

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:41 AM

literally the only way to argue 80s jordan over 80s kareem is to absolutely throw out everything that makes jordan the goat in the first place

you're only contradicting yourself and doing more damage than good

please. just take the 90's nomination and be happy with it

asking for an 80s nod over guys that won titles as the man ...?

youre actin like a damn fool

3ball

10-30-2015, 04:44 AM

so your argument for jordan over kareem is basically letard fans argument for lebron over jordan

i see

yup.. you went full retard
Lebron has better stats than Jordan?... Show me where.. MJ's stats are easily better at every stage of his career - peak, overall, you name it.

More importantly, MJ never underachieved by losing as the favorite - whereas Kobe has, and Lebron has even more - that's why MJ's stats are valid in the 80's - he never underachieved based on what he had, whereas Kobe and Lebron's entire careers are riddled with underachievements.

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:49 AM

Lebron has better stats than Jordan?... Show me where.. MJ's stats are easily better at every stage of his career - peak, overall, you name it.

More importantly, MJ never underachieved by losing as the favorite - whereas Kobe has, and Lebron has even more - that's why MJ's stats are valid in the 80's - he never underachieved based on what he had, whereas Kobe and Lebron's entire careers are riddled with underachievements.

And MJ's stats are better WHILE WINNING, which is your argument for Kobe over Lebron - your argument is that Kobe's stats aren't as good but he wins.. And they're FAR better than Kobe's

i really don't care. stats are subjective to eras/teams/padding/lottery or contending years etc...

but if i must bring you down to reality.. sure

lebrons 2000's stats = 28/7/7 on 48%

jordans 1990's stats = 30/6/5 on 49%

yea i'd say lebrons are slightly better.. sure why not

but jordan was twice the player. and numbers lie

i know this cause i'm not an analytic retard

you're becoming one bro

ya ****in cuck...

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:51 AM

if i want stats i'm gonna take lebron

if i want wins i'm gonna take jordan

3ball is turning into a big ****in goof thinking its getting him anywhere arguing with lebron fans about who had the better numbers

JohnFreeman

10-30-2015, 04:52 AM

I would take LeBron over Garnett

kennethgriffin

10-30-2015, 04:54 AM

I would take LeBron over Garnett

Lebron:

All-Star Games
2005 NBA
2006 NBA
2007 NBA
2008 NBA
2009 NBA
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA MVP

Garnett:

All-Star Games
2000 NBA
2001 NBA
2002 NBA
2003 NBA
2004 NBA
2005 NBA
2006 NBA
2007 NBA
2008 NBA
2009 NBA
1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1999-00 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA MVP
Championships
(Minimum 1 playoff game)
2008 Boston Celtics (NBA)

https://sabarton.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/facepalm-picard-gif-i4.jpg

JohnFreeman

10-30-2015, 05:00 AM

Wow, Garnett won All Star selections before LeBron was in the league..

3ball

10-30-2015, 05:00 AM

lebrons 2000's stats = 28/7/7 on 48%

jordans 1990's stats = 30/6/5 on 49%

MJ's stats are still better, even though they include his older years and Lebron's don't.. But it's irrelevant anyway.

You're trying to argue that stats don't matter, which is only true when a player's team underperforms.. Then the player's stats were achieved at the expense of optimal team play and the stats are "empty".

But MJ's teams never underachieved, so his stats are what they are.. simply better than everyone's.. And btw, anytime the gap in stats is massive like MJ and Kareem's 80's stats, then the win-loss records don't matter... 80's MJ was far better than 80's Kareem.
.

Dragonyeuw

10-30-2015, 06:16 AM

Wow, Garnett won All Star selections before LeBron was in the league..

Thats an understatement, his first allstar game was 1996-97. He's been through 3 generations of players.

3ball

10-30-2015, 06:29 AM

Thats an understatement, his first allstar game was 1996-97. He's been through 3 generations of players.

And for much of that time, Garnett was the perfect example of why taller players were a big mismatch for MJ:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/ZiK2Dz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2015/2CzSlq.gif

dhsilv

10-30-2015, 06:39 AM

Wade has had two good seasons in this span. No way is he the 2010 SG.

Some players are just part of that middle ground, and don't really fit in certain cases.

KG and Dirk don't belong over Bron in 2000 either. Bron achieved more than both of them in that time.

KG was ahead of Lebron in the 00's. Dirk and Kobe you could have an interesting argument for. Lebron was the best player in the NBA starting in 2006.

Similarly MJ was better in the 80's than Isiah however this one isn't even debatable, it isn't close.

3ball

10-30-2015, 07:14 AM

Lebron was the best player in the NBA starting in 2006.

No way - it's easier for Lebron to have better stats, because his stats are achieved in a playground style designed to rack up stats but not win, and his stats come at the expense of teammates' stats - it's a fact that he significantly lowers the APG of teammates and also PPG..

Otoh, Kobe achieved his stats within a winning framework that was designed to win over accumulate stats, and all of Kobe's teammates had equal or higher APG alongside Kobe - some teammates' stats improved to career highs under Kobe's watch... I don't think anyone did that alongside Lebron.
.

dhsilv

10-30-2015, 07:30 AM

No way - it's easier for Lebron to have better stats, because his stats are achieved in a playground style designed to rack up stats but not win, and his stats come at the expense of teammates' stats - it's a fact that he significantly lowers the APG of teammates and also PPG..

Otoh, Kobe achieved his stats within a winning framework that was designed to win over accumulate stats, and all of Kobe's teammates had equal or higher APG alongside Kobe - some teammates' stats improved to career highs under Kobe's watch... I don't think anyone did that alongside Lebron.
.

Lebron's stats directly impacted wins. This is a statistical fact proven through ridged regression analysis with both box score stats and plus minus and play by play data looking at on off plus minus.

This just isn't up for debate and your overly simple and non informative per 100 crap or looking at YEAR's vs. on off within a year is absurdly false.

There is no statistical or well reviewed data that will change this.

3ball

10-30-2015, 07:36 AM

Lebron's stats directly impacted wins. This is a statistical fact prove through ridged regression analysis with both box score stats and plus minus and play by play data looking at on off plus minus.

This just isn't up for debate and your overly simlpe and non informative per 100 crap or looking at YEAR's vs. on off within a year is absurdly false.

There is no statistical or well reviewed data that will change this.
Who said Lebron's stats didn't impact wins?... I never said that - I said it's easier for Lebron to have better stats, because his stats are achieved in a playground style designed to rack up stats and good regular season records rather than have maximum teamwork that can win championships... The weaker teamwork is shown in the stats - Lebron's teammates have much lower APG alongside him and also PPG.

By preventing teammates from playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underachieves.. And by lowering teammate APG, Lebron hurts the team, since a 1 playmaker team < multiple playmaker teams.

Otoh, Kobe achieved his stats within a winning framework that was designed to win at a championship level over accumulate stats, and all of Kobe's teammates had equal or higher APG alongside Kobe - some teammates' stats improved to career highs under Kobe's watch... I don't think anyone did that alongside Lebron.

Fallen Angel

10-30-2015, 07:37 AM

Right now for the 2010s:

Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Lebron James, Kevin Durant

These players have multiple elite individual seasons and multiple regular season/playoff success years.

dhsilv

10-30-2015, 07:40 AM

Who said Lebron's stats didn't impact wins?... I never said that - I said it's easier for Lebron to have better stats, because his stats are achieved in a playground style designed to rack up stats and good regular season records rather than have maximum teamwork that can win championships... and also, his stats come at the expense of teammates' stats - it's a fact that he significantly lowers the APG of teammates and also PPG..

Otoh, Kobe achieved his stats within a winning framework that was designed to win at a championship level over accumulate stats, and all of Kobe's teammates had equal or higher APG alongside Kobe - some teammates' stats improved to career highs under Kobe's watch... I don't think anyone did that alongside Lebron.

The goal of a player is to maximize his team's change of winning. That is the only thing that matters. Lebron statistically did this better than Kobe. None of your other absurd crap matters what so ever. You know it but you're trying to take an assumption and back into an answer you want to see. That's not how reality works.

kshutts1

10-30-2015, 07:50 AM

dhsilv

10-30-2015, 07:52 AM

3ball, why are all of your posts edited when all you do is copy/paste previous arguments? :biggums:

Worse yet people have already responded to him and his "adds" are things he's posted elsewhere so it's not like he's even adding anything new or interesting. He know everyone already read his prior copy and paste job....

SpanishACB

10-30-2015, 07:53 AM

I love these interactions, I wish other sports (like soccer) had a show like this.

Lmao at the Pippen hate though, hah. Issiah is totally on point though.

kunk75

10-30-2015, 08:02 AM

agreed. people in here are dumber than they'd be in a mike huckabee support forum

MJ's stats are still better, even though they include his older years and Lebron's don't.. But it's irrelevant anyway.

You're trying to argue that stats don't matter, which is only true when a player's team underperforms.. Then the player's stats were achieved at the expense of optimal team play and the stats are "empty".

But MJ's teams never underachieved, so his stats are what they are.. simply better than everyone's.. And btw, anytime the gap in stats is massive like MJ and Kareem's 80's stats, then the win-loss records don't matter... 80's MJ was far better than 80's Kareem.
.

kunk75

10-30-2015, 08:03 AM

chris paul is an elite level whiner with no mvps and no rings

Right now for the 2010s:

Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Lebron James, Kevin Durant

These players have multiple elite individual seasons and multiple regular season/playoff success years.

3ball

10-30-2015, 08:14 AM

The goal of a player is to maximize his team's change of winning.

Lebron does a decent job of this in the regular season.. A lot of players do.. In Lebron's case, turning teammates from playmakers into play-finishers doesn't hurt him or get exposed in the regular season.

But in the postseason, 1-playmaker teams get exposed.. Look what happened in 2009 against Orlando - Mo Williams had become less of a playmaker alongside Lebron, which gave the team less capacity for a diverse offense - his apg had cratered from 6.3 to 4.1 in just 1 season alongside Lebron - this is what Lebron does to all his teammates - Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love.

Lebron's ball-dominant, play-hogging approach might rack up stats and work well enough to get regular season wins, but it will always be doomed to a horrible record at the championship level, except for the rare times sufficient talent is stuffed onto the team to overcome Lebron's suboptimal style.

Psileas

10-30-2015, 08:21 AM

Wow, I don't remember having seen this 180 dunk by Wilt at 4:08 on Russell, taken from the 1963 ASG.
NBA still bringing new material to surface...

3ball

10-30-2015, 08:40 AM

Worse yet people have already responded to him and his "adds" are things he's posted elsewhere so it's not like he's even adding anything new or interesting. He know everyone already read his prior copy and paste job....
Also, the fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing when ranking players.

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014)..

His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win at a championship level.

Dragonyeuw

10-30-2015, 09:09 AM

And for much of that time, Garnett was the perfect example of why taller players were a big mismatch for MJ:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/ZiK2Dz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2015/2CzSlq.gif

It takes a special skill to take a comment that had nothing to do with MJ...................and make it about MJ. How do you do it?

ShawkFactory

10-30-2015, 10:11 AM

Kenneth and 3ball seeing who can out-troll the other.

Impressive stuff.

ProfessorMurder

10-30-2015, 10:30 AM

And for much of that time, Garnett was the perfect example of why taller players were a big mismatch for MJ:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2015/2CzSlq.gif

Literally no player helped Garnett. Szczerbiak just let him walk by.

LAZERUSS

10-30-2015, 09:15 PM

Wow, I don't remember having seen this 180 dunk by Wilt at 4:08 on Russell, taken from the 1963 ASG.
NBA still bringing new material to surface...

Nice catch Psileas...especially since the footage was only for a instant.

Hopefully more footage is unearthed. Maybe one day we will have the pleasure of a full 40+ point game.

dhsilv

10-30-2015, 09:36 PM

Nice catch Psileas...especially since the footage was only for a instant.

Hopefully more footage is unearthed. Maybe one day we will have the pleasure of a full 40+ point game.

Do we not have any full games from wilt out there to view? I'll admit I looked a bit once but it was a while ago. If not that's insane!

dhsilv

10-30-2015, 09:42 PM

double post....delete me

LAZERUSS

10-30-2015, 09:45 PM

Do we not have any full games from wilt out there to view? I'll admit I looked a bit once but it was a while ago. If not that's insane!

Off the top of my head...

A playoff game in '71; and Finals games in '70 and '72. Then there are halves of a Finals game in '64 and '70, as well as a playoff game in '67. And finally, quite a bit of footage of his '62 ASG (in which he scored 42 points on 17-23 shooting.)

Unfortunately, none of his 40+ point games (although I believe CavsFTW had footage of a college game in which he scored 40.) Given that he had 271 40+ point games in his NBA career, many against HOF centers, it is a damn shame that none of them seem to have been captured on video (and there were at least some that were televised at the time.)

Interesting too, that every game of the '72 WCF's (against Kareem) were nationally televised...and yet, not one in video.

tmacattack33

10-30-2015, 10:23 PM

Lebron does a decent job of this in the regular season.. A lot of players do.. In Lebron's case, turning teammates from playmakers into play-finishers doesn't hurt him or get exposed in the regular season.

But in the postseason, 1-playmaker teams get exposed.. Look what happened in 2009 against Orlando - Mo Williams had become less of a playmaker alongside Lebron, which gave the team less capacity for a diverse offense - his apg had cratered from 6.3 to 4.1 in just 1 season alongside Lebron - this is what Lebron does to all his teammates - Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love.

Lebron's ball-dominant, play-hogging approach might rack up stats and work well enough to get regular season wins, but it will always be doomed to a horrible record at the championship level, except for the rare times sufficient talent is stuffed onto the team to overcome Lebron's suboptimal style.

This is stupid as fukk.

"Style X can indeed win in the regular season and rounds 1-3 of the playoffs, but it will never win in the Finals"

LOL, terrible logic. Anything that can win you the Conference Finals can win you the Finals.

Not to mention that Style X actually got Cleveland 2 Finals wins last year. So I guess you are wrong, it can win games in the Finals?

But I bet your response to Cleveland winning 2 games with Style X in the Finals is that "Style X is not good for Games 4 and 5 of the Finals specifically". :roll: Like as though Games 4 and 5 have magical powers and the basketball Gods come down and make Game 4 and 5 completely different than the other games.

dhsilv

10-31-2015, 06:34 AM

Also, the fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing when ranking players.

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014)..

His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win at a championship level.

None of what you're saying matters. If the stats say he's making the TEAM better despite everything else then that's what it is. If you want to argue the stats are showing us a false positive, show me why. Otherwise, seriously shut up.

The funny things about stats is they don't care if you like a player or not. They are numbers. Numbers have contexts, they have formulas used to create them, but if you trust the inputs you gotta trust the output. You can't spin it...

dhsilv

10-31-2015, 06:37 AM

Off the top of my head...

A playoff game in '71; and Finals games in '70 and '72. Then there are halves of a Finals game in '64 and '70, as well as a playoff game in '67. And finally, quite a bit of footage of his '62 ASG (in which he scored 42 points on 17-23 shooting.)

Unfortunately, none of his 40+ point games (although I believe CavsFTW had footage of a college game in which he scored 40.) Given that he had 271 40+ point games in his NBA career, many against HOF centers, it is a damn shame that none of them seem to have been captured on video (and there were at least some that were televised at the time.)

Interesting too, that every game of the '72 WCF's (against Kareem) were nationally televised...and yet, not one in video.

That is a shame. I certainly don't have such a high opinion of Wilt as you do, but watching his games would be great to do.

It also sucks because without footage we can't hire grad students to build play by play stats so we can do better stats on that era. Would love to get a better feeling of his shot selection, teammates shots, etc.

LAZERUSS

10-31-2015, 08:15 AM

That is a shame. I certainly don't have such a high opinion of Wilt as you do, but watching his games would be great to do.

It also sucks because without footage we can't hire grad students to build play by play stats so we can do better stats on that era. Would love to get a better feeling of his shot selection, teammates shots, etc.

In some ways it was unfortunate for Wilt to have put up his unfathomable '61-62 season. Why? Because so many associate Chamberlain with that one season, and dismiss the rest of his career. And the Wilt "bashers" come up with all kinds of "explanations" for his numbers that year.

The fact was, Wilt was putting up records nearly every season in his career. Even into his last season, he set a FG% mark that still stands today. And in that post-season he averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 playoff games (while playing 47.1 mpg...which, amazingly, was below his career playoff average of 47.2 mpg in his 160 playoff games.) Hell, in his very last game, at nearly 37 years of age, and against HOFer Willis Reed, he hung a 23 point, 21 rebound game.

And in that last season, and thanks to some exceptional research, we know know that he averaged 5.42 bpg. Given that Mark Eaton set the "official" mark just 12 years later, at 5.56 bpg, and in year in which Magic, Bird, MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, and many other stars were playing, and in a season in which the NBA averaged 89 FGA per game, per team, as compared to Wilt's '73 NBA, which averaged 97 FGAs per game, per team...it gives us a better indication of just how great a shot-blocker he really was.

And how about Wilt, at age 33, and being asked to score, leading the league in ppg at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%), when he shattered his knee in the ninth game of the '69-70 season? The same season that a rookie Alcindor (Kareem) would average 28.8 ppg on a .518 FG%? When you take into account that Kareem would have his highest scoring season just two years later, at 34.8 (on a .574 FG%), and that KAJ was still hanging multiple 40+ point games on a 24 year Hakeem at age 39...again, we have a pretty good indication as to how Chamberlain's offense would have translated into the current era.

Or that a 32 year old Chamberlain hung two 60+ point games just the year before Kareem's rookie season, and against two centers whom a peak Kareem would face many times (and his career high against both was 41 points.) The same Kareem who would play 20 years, and with a career high game of 55 points.

And forget the pure numbers, as well. The fact was, Wilt was just overwhelming his peers. He had multiple seasons against HOFers such as Russell, Reed, and Bellamy, and in years in which he faced them between 10-12 games, in which he averaged between 38 ppg to as high as 53 ppg. He had a span of 11 games in which he hung six 30+ point games on HOFer Thurmond, including games in which he outscored Nate by margins of 38-15 and 45-13. The same full-time Thurmond that a peak Kareem faced some 35 times in his career, and could only muster five 30+ point games, with a high of 34. Or that Wilt, in his last two seasons, covering 11 H2H games, averaged 24 ppg on a .750 FG% against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier. The same Lanier who was among the best centers of the entire decade of the 70's, and who was still putting a 19-9-3 .537% season as late as the '80 season (and a 14-6-3 .572 FG% at age 35 and in the '85 season.)

So, while Chamberlain would not be hanging 50-26 seasons in the current NBA, we do have strong transitory evidence to suggest that he still would be putting up staggering seasons in the more current NBA.

dhsilv

10-31-2015, 08:24 AM

In some ways it was unfortunate for Wilt to have put up his unfathomable '61-62 season. Why? Because so many associate Chamberlain with that one season, and dismiss the rest of his career. And the Wilt "bashers" come up with all kinds of "explanations" for his numbers that year.

The fact was, Wilt was putting up records nearly every season in his career. Even into his last season, he set a FG% mark that still stands today. And in that post-season he averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 playoff games (while playing 47.1 mpg...which, amazingly, was below his career playoff average of 47.2 mpg in his 160 playoff games.) Hell, in his very last game, at nearly 37 years of age, and against HOFer Willis Reed, he hung a 23 point, 21 rebound game.

And in that last season, and thanks to some exceptional research, we know know that he averaged 5.42 bpg. Given that Mark Eaton set the "official" mark just 12 years later, at 5.56 bpg, and in year in which Magic, Bird, MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, and many other stars were playing, and in a season in which the NBA averaged 89 FGA per game, per team, as compared to Wilt's '73 NBA, which averaged 97 FGAs per game, per team...it gives us a better indication of just how great a shot-blocker he really was.

And how about Wilt, at age 33, and being asked to score, leading the league in ppg at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%), when he shattered his knee in the ninth game of the '69-70 season? The same season that a rookie Alcindor (Kareem) would average 28.8 ppg on a .518 FG%? When you take into account that Kareem would have his highest scoring season just two years later, at 34.8 (on a .574 FG%), and that KAJ was still hanging multiple 40+ point games on a 24 year Hakeem at age 39...again, we have a pretty good indication as to how Chamberlain's offense would have translated into the current era.

Or that a 32 year old Chamberlain hung two 60+ point games just the year before Kareem's rookie season, and against two centers whom a peak Kareem would face many times (and his career high against both was 41 points.) The same Kareem who would play 20 years, and with a career high game of 55 points.

And forget the pure numbers, as well. The fact was, Wilt was just overwhelming his peers. He had multiple seasons against HOFers such as Russell, Reed, and Bellamy, and in years in which he faced them between 10-12 games, in which he averaged between 38 ppg to as high as 53 ppg. He had a span of 11 games in which he hung six 30+ point games on HOFer Thurmond, including games in which he outscored Nate by margins of 38-15 and 45-13. The same full-time Thurmond that a peak Kareem faced some 35 times in his career, and could only muster five 30+ point games, with a high of 34. Or that Wilt, in his last two seasons, covering 11 H2H games, averaged 24 ppg on a .750 FG% against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier. The same Lanier who was among the best centers of the entire decade of the 70's, and who was still putting a 19-9-3 .537% season as late as the '80 season (and a 14-6-3 .572 FG% at age 35 and in the '85 season.)

So, while Chamberlain would not be hanging 50-26 seasons in the current NBA, we do have strong transitory evidence to suggest that he still would be putting up staggering seasons in the more current NBA.

Where the wilt story gets iffy and I mean this in that I'm not sure I know, is in his value add to the team winning.

One of the great things today we have is that we have plus minus (wilt playing 48 would make that crazy to work with) and we have more play by play data to see the impact.

I'm SURE wilt's a huge value add but I'd like to see by how much next to say a Russel who everyone in that era thought was better (ok not everyone). It's this huge black hole and without tape we'll never have a clue. sadly I think that's what it is...

LAZERUSS

10-31-2015, 08:33 AM

Where the wilt story gets iffy and I mean this in that I'm not sure I know, is in his value add to the team winning.

One of the great things today we have is that we have plus minus (wilt playing 48 would make that crazy to work with) and we have more play by play data to see the impact.

I'm SURE wilt's a huge value add but I'd like to see by how much next to say a Russel who everyone in that era thought was better (ok not everyone). It's this huge black hole and without tape we'll never have a clue. sadly I think that's what it is...

Not everyone. In fact, how about this...in their 10 years in the league together, Wilt held a 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBA's.

BTW, John Wooden was on record as saying that had Chamberlain and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, and it likely would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

And how about the Wilt-Russell H2H's?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9jddU8eNWrI8MMOPs_0l58WnjFNADvF4iIcu0Sfz7A/edit?pli=1#gid=0

As for the "tape"...here is one of my favorites...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

And if you want the most comprehensive footage that exists...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94iJr8ZbzM

dhsilv

10-31-2015, 12:17 PM

Not everyone. In fact, how about this...in their 10 years in the league together, Wilt held a 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBA's.

BTW, John Wooden was on record as saying that had Chamberlain and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, and it likely would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

And how about the Wilt-Russell H2H's?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9jddU8eNWrI8MMOPs_0l58WnjFNADvF4iIcu0Sfz7A/edit?pli=1#gid=0

As for the "tape"...here is one of my favorites...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

And if you want the most comprehensive footage that exists...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94iJr8ZbzM

And yet those MVP's...

please don't argue this, I don't care. I don't want to argue. I think both are the two most overrated players ever. So I don't care enough to fight :)