How is this setup not optimal for Jordan's game?

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2015/ppFxTf.gif


Statistical fact: Midrange shots (all shots that aren't at-rim or 3-pointers) is the most-used shot in today's game... Defenses allow it, especially in crunch time.. Just look at Westbrook last night vs. Orlando - 4 of his 5 shots in overtime were uncontested midrange (shown above and below):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2015/Fio2iQ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2015/WXD2lv.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2015/Pd-VeP.gif


In previous eras, screen-roll was only used to hit the big man rolling, or pick-n-pop for a long 2-pointer - these are lower efficiency plays than today's screen roll, which is used for drive-and-kick, specifically drive-and-kick for 3-pointers.

The lower efficiency of previous era's screen rolls is why screen-roll wasn't used as much back then - the exception is Stockton/Malone, who had abnormal chemistry and skill that made it worthwhile to run these lower efficiency, non-drive-and-kick screen rolls.

But in today's game, screen-roll is a higher efficiency, drive-and-kick play that everyone can use.. Today's screen-rolls are initiated further out on the floor, which allows the ballhandler a head of steam and bigger driving lane - this is the perfect, optimal setup for ballhandlers, as shown above with Westbrook.. Today's screen-roll setup is so deadly, that uncontested midrange jumpers are ALLOWED by the defense - uncontested midrange is how Westbrook dominated overtime last night, as shown in gifs above.

This is remarkable because Westbrook is a horrible midrange shooter, smaller, and less athletic than MJ.. Today's spacing would maximize MJ's superior athleticism, while the uncontested midrange would give him a free 2 points anytime he wanted - MJ would obliterate today's league - literally add 10 ppg and 10% fg to Westbrook's averages, just like MJ did in the 80's.
.

[sdot_thadon]

And unfortunately not win titles to this point like the player you used for reference.

[kennethgriffin]

todays league is dominated by outside shooting, passing, team play, ball dominant point guards etc...




mid range is dead
posting up is dead



jordan would basically be turned into a defensive role player


yeah he'd get stats. but only if his team wasn't expected to win

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan wouldn't even make an NBA roster in today's game

[LoneyROY7]

Poor man's Tony Allen honestly.

[Lebronxrings]

they dared westbrook to shoot it because he kept penetrating the d when they tried to get near him. Jordan would not be able to have that as he wouldn't be quick enough to get that defensive attention today. Jordan is like a poor mans derozan, mostly just mid range shots.

[3ball]

mid range is dead


Do you enjoy being stupid?

The highest proportion of shots are taken between 10-23 feet - midrange shots are the most-used shots in the game dumbass - this is statistical fact.

4 out of Westbrook's 5 shots in OT were UNCONTESTED MIDRANGE... The defense allows midrange shots in today's game - the paint is wide open in virtually every play.

[kennethgriffin]

Do you enjoy being stupid?

The highest proportion of shots are taken between 10-23 feet - midrange shots are the most-used shots in the game dumbass - this is statistical fact.


mid range is dead. everythings a three or a shot inside



join 2015 with the rest of us


even kobes giving up on it.

[3ball]

mid range is dead. everythings a three or a layup



join 2015 with the rest of us


even kobes giving up on it.
The highest proportion of shots are taken between 10-23 feet - midrange shots are the most-used shots in the game dumbass - this is statistical fact.

4 out of Westbrook's 5 shots in OT were UNCONTESTED MIDRANGE... The defense allows midrange shots in today's game - the paint is wide open in virtually every play.

[kennethgriffin]

The highest proportion of shots are taken between 10-23 feet - midrange shots are the most-used shots in the game dumbass - this is statistical fact.

4 out of Westbrook's 5 shots in OT were UNCONTESTED MIDRANGE... The defense allows midrange shots in today's game - the paint is wide open in virtually every play.


10-23 feet isnt midrange


i'd say between 12-15 feet is

mid = middle .. i.e. middle of where people can shoot

[3ball]

10-23 feet isnt midrange


i'd say between 12-15 feet is

mid = middle .. i.e. middle of where people can shoot
stfu dumbass and making up your own rules.. it's better to know the facts, than live in your own delusional world of dumbness.

almost 40% of all shots taken in today's game is from 10-23 feet.. midrange is the most-used shot in today's game.

and that's how westbrook dominated OT last night vs. Orlando - 4 out of Westbrook's 5 shots in OT were UNCONTESTED MIDRANGE... The defense allows midrange shots in today's game - the paint is wide open in virtually every play.

[GIF REACTION]

midrange is 16-23






















































































































Isn't that obvious?

[Smoke117]

The off-season is over...nobody cares about this Jordan nonsense anymore.

[3ball]

midrange is 16-23


midrange is 10-23 feet and almost 40% of all shots in today's game are from that distance.. midrange is the most-used shot in today's game.

midrange is how westbrook dominated OT last night vs. Orlando - 4 out of Westbrook's 5 shots in OT were uncontested midrange - see the gifs in OP.

The defense simply allows midrange shots in today's game - the paint is wide open in virtually every play.

[GIF REACTION]

Rule Enforced Spacing
Rule Enforced Spacing relates to the offensive floor spacing teams achieved during the Illegal Defense period (1981-2001)

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book

The new wave of coaches made defenses sophisticated enough by 1981 that the league created an “illegal defense” rule to open up the paint. Here’s how referee Ed Rush explained it to SI: “We were becoming a jump-shot league, so we went to the coaches and said, ‘You’ve screwed the game with all your great defenses. Now fix it.’ And they did. The new rule will open up the middle and give the great players room to move. People like Julius Erving and David Thompson who used to beat their own defensive man and then still have to pull up for a jump shot because they were being double-teamed, should have an extra four or five feet to move around in. And that’s all those guys need.”

Effect:
1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds. (THIS IS THE CURRENT 3 seconds rule)
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9

The Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed teams to achieve spacing by simple positioning on the court and not actual shooting ability. The rules allowed them to do so. Today we know the value that the 3 point shot has with regards to opening the lane to the rim, yet in the 80's and 90's (before they shortened the 3pt line) the league average ranged from 2 3pters a game, to 10. How were these teams able to be such efficient offenses without having shooters to spread the half court? The Rules enforced, allowed them to do so... Commonly known as the ISO, or Clear-out, that commentators would mention at the time.

DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE SPACING, THIS MADE THESE PLAYS EFFICIENT AND LEGITIMATE AS A CONSISTENT MEANS OF SCORING

http://i.imgur.com/UZg8H99.gif
Barkley is allowed easy post position and entry due to section C of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (CANNOT DOUBLE SOMEONE OFF-BALL) and has the lane open to work his post moves, as his team mates are situated in a spread manner, kind of like today where shooters hang at the 3pt line to space the floor, except these guys are not 3pt shooters... Simply providing positioning to achieve appropriate spacing for Barkley. Charles has enough time to get into a favorable turnaround jumper, before the hard double can get there. Defenders on the weak side are sagging off slightly, which could be considered a phantom zone, which was the topic of conversation during the Illegal Defense era.

http://i.imgur.com/AcHHb0N.gif
Barkley iso's on the strong side, as his team mates clear to the weak side to open up the floor. The center in the middle gets caught out and if not for Barkley's quick shot attempt, would have been called for Illegal defense. You can see the attention that the defenders are paying to Barkley's teammates flooding the weak side to open the floor for Barkley's ISO. This is kind of messy but it provides the opportunity and spacing via Illegal defense rules, for Barkley to capitalize on the smaller opponent.

http://i.imgur.com/j7XS9e4.gif
David Robinson has the floor open because his teammates are situated in a very modern 3pt shooting style spread. Make it known that, they are NOT 3pt threats nor was it used as such weapon during this time period. The spacing is provided by the Illegal defense rules. Once again we see the weakside defenders sagging off a little, playing a phantom zone, but it really has minimal effect on Robinson, as he is able to comfortably get to his spot and hit a nice 10 foot jumper over the smaller opponent.

http://i.imgur.com/VJVCqBZ.gif
Robinson is allowed easy post position and entry due to section C of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (CANNOT DOUBLE SOMEONE OFF-BALL) and has the lane open to work his post moves, as his team mates are situated in a spread manner, kind of like today where shooters hang at the 3pt line to space the floor, except these guys are not 3pt shooters... Simply providing positioning to achieve appropriate spacing for Robinson. David has enough time to get into a favorable point blank dropstep basket, before the hard double can get there. Defenders on the weak side are sagging off slightly, which could be considered a phantom zone, which was the topic of conversation during the Illegal Defense era.

http://i.imgur.com/TmVr1N5.gif
Robinson isolates on the right wing, while his team mates situate towards to perimeter, to facitilate and provide adequate spacing for Robinson. 2 above the key and the other 2 at the corner 3. A quick mobile athlete like Robinson is able to capitalize and beat the hard double team and finish at the hoop strong. Robinson's spaced out team mates are not all 3pt shooters, the Illegal defense rules allow them to position themselves to create the space required for the Robinson ISO drive to the hoop.

[GIF REACTION]

//

The modern NBA is much more advanced in defensive schemes. It is not so simple to say somethign and expect a result in that fashion!

Shooting Encouraged Spacing
Shooting Encouraged Spacing refers to the offensive floor spreading, occurring after Illegal Defense was removed in 2001. "Encouraged" implies that it is not mandatory, or enforced, to space the floor. Whereas with Rule Enforced Spacing, failure to spread the court with accordance to the Illegal Defense Guidelines, results in a technical and eventual free throws.

2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines
Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place

(Up coming quotes are from some of the most renowned and well respected NBA analysts and writers on the Earth today. Earning the big bucks because they are the best at what they do... Including ESPN's Henry Abbott, and Grantland's Zach Lowe)


“Getting to the hole is getting harder and harder,” says Chicago’s Carlos Boozer


“A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes,” says Houston GM Daryl Morey, in reference to the league’s decision a decade ago to abandon illegal defense rules and essentially allow zone defenses. “First the defense evolved by overloading the strong side, and now the offenses are evolving to beat that.”


“The league has gotten so different today,” (Jim) Boylan says. “You just have to move the ball from one side to the other against the really good defensive teams.”

Isolation and Post up plays are much easier to defend now compared to the Illegal Defense era. Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses, which require full court use, putting a premium on shooting ability enforced spacing (Not rule enforced spacing), passing and movement.


The league overall understands this, though some coaching staffs have been quicker than others in adjusting their systems. The percentage of offensive possessions that end with isolation plays and post-up shots has declined every season for the last five years, per Synergy Sports. In 2008-09, the year after the Celtics used a Thibodeau-designed system to create one of the stingiest defenses ever, 27 of the league’s 30 teams still finished at least 9 percent of their offensive possessions via an isolation play, according to Synergy Sports. The Magic, at 7.4 percent, were the least isolation-prone team in the league that season.3 This season, 15 teams — half the league — are below that 9 percent isolation mark, and a whopping 11 have lower isolation shares than Milwaukee’s league-low number from 2008-09. The drop in post-ups has been similar, and the numbers would seem to indicate an increase in ball movement.

Conversely, this has had an effect on the specifics of personnel scoring, not necessarily team scoring output. Elite scorer numbers are down across the board, and this is in direct effect due to advanced defenses thanks to the removal of Illegal defense. With post ups and isolation plays being able to be defended much better, more ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.


Thorpe explains it best in the video, but the gist is this: In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there.


That's all happening. Stars putting up big numbers are incredibly hard to find this season compared to five years ago, but overall team scoring is down only about two points per game -- the non-star scorers must be picking up a little slack.

And as for assists, in 1985-86, the 10 players who played the longest minutes in the season's first 36 games combined for 1,308 assists. Five years ago, that number was 1,482. This year it's all the way up to 1,768.

David Thorpe

Now, when you beat that first line of defense, you’ve got four dudes very often sitting, waiting for you on ball-side …You might have three, four, even five defenders on that ball-side box. That wasn’t the case when Jordan played … You couldn’t go anywhere near a ball-side box back then. There were great teams like Chuck Daly’s Pistons and Pat Riley’s Lakers that devised “zone,” so to speak, to kind of flood the ball more, but it was nothing, Henry [Abbott of ESPN], like it is today. The teeth of the defense today is much sharper, and there’s many more teeth then there was back when Jordan played,

George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient

“The game is getting out of balance,” says George Karl, now coaching perhaps the league’s preeminent post-up brute. “But until we figure out a way to make the post-up more efficient, we’re not going back. You just can’t win throwing the ball into the post 60 times per game.”


Referees let point guards flit around unfettered, but the paint remains a war zone where brutality can trump skill. Legalized zone frees help defenders to sandwich dangerous post-up threats. “The reason the post-up doesn't work anymore is that teams just front now,” Karl says. Help defenders can drift from their assignments to prevent a lob pass over that front, forcing the defense to whip the ball elsewhere.


http://i.imgur.com/c09G6c1.gif
Dwight post up to face up drive to the hoop from the low post, while Steve Nash, Kobe, MWP, and Antwan Jamison spread the court with their 3 point shooting. Jameer sags off MWP and attempts to swipe the ball from Dwight. This would be an illegal defense in the 90's because it would be considered a double, but it was not a hard double, very much slow and awarely trying to zone and cover space. Dwight finishes strong with the nifty left hook.

http://i.imgur.com/OFCH8de.gif
Blake works in the low post. The strong side and rim is spaced due to having elite 3pt shooters Chris Paul and JJ Reddick at the top of the key, and Matt Barnes in the weakside corner 3. Deandre is baseline, creating a threat with his lob ability, so his defender has to keep contact and respect his offensive threat. This allows Blake to work his way in the post and get a great spin right hand hook shot. Also, noticed how Curry is jumping back and forth, trying to softly double and annoy Blake while being ready for pass out to Paul at the 3 line. This would be considered a clear illegal defense in the Rule Enforced Spacing era.

http://i.imgur.com/gMYnoFZ.gif
Lebron ISO drives to the rim for the AND1 while he has the floor spaced with Mozgov at the top, ready for an 18 footer which he can hit well, Delly and Shump at the 3, spacing the weakside, and Thompson spacing weakside baseline with his Lob ability, similar to Deandre Jordan.

[kennethgriffin]

jordans flat as **** three point shot wouldnt hold up in todays league.

his mid range wouldn't be effective


he'd basically have to spam layups like lebron

[3ball]

GIF REACTION - your posts make no sense - there isn't a single rule from previous eras that "enforced spacing".. If there is, then tell me what it is.

The only time in history that rules enforced spacing is today's defensive 3 seconds, which requires that defenders vacate the paint (thus creating spacing) if they aren't within "armslength" of their man.

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the policy governing the most important area of the floor - the paint.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

GIF REACTION - your posts make no sense - there isn't a single rule from previous eras that "enforced spacing".. If there is, then tell me what it is.

Sounds like you've found a twin. :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

Jordan's mid range game wasn't elite enough to exploit today's defenses, his midrange was simply passable

[3ball]

Jordan's mid range game wasn't elite enough to exploit today's defenses, his midrange was simply passable
In previous eras, screen-roll was only used to hit the big man rolling, or pick-n-pop for a long 2-pointer - these are lower efficiency plays than today's screen roll, which is used for drive-and-kick, specifically drive-and-kick for 3-pointers.

The lower efficiency of previous era's screen rolls is why screen-roll wasn't used as much back then - the exception is Stockton/Malone, who had abnormal chemistry and skill that made it worthwhile to run these lower efficiency, non-drive-and-kick screen rolls.

But in today's game, screen-roll is a higher efficiency, drive-and-kick play that everyone can use.. Today's screen-rolls are initiated further out on the floor, which allows the ballhandler a head of steam and bigger driving lane - this is the perfect, optimal setup for ballhandlers, as shown above with Westbrook.. Today's screen-roll setup is so deadly, that uncontested midrange jumpers are ALLOWED by the defense - uncontested midrange is how Westbrook dominated overtime last night, as shown in gifs above.

This is remarkable because Westbrook is a horrible midrange shooter, smaller, and less athletic than MJ.. Today's spacing would maximize MJ's superior athleticism, while the uncontested midrange would give him a free 2 points anytime he wanted - MJ would obliterate today's league - literally add 10 ppg and 10% fg to Westbrook's averages, just like MJ did in the 80's.

[Jameerthefear]

The magic just didn't play that well. SHould have been going under the screen.

[3ball]

The magic just didn't play that well. SHould have been going under the screen.


In previous eras, screen-roll was only used to hit the big man rolling, or pick-n-pop for a long 2-pointer - these are lower efficiency plays than today's screen roll, which is used for drive-and-kick, specifically drive-and-kick for 3-pointers.

The lower efficiency of previous era's screen rolls is why screen-roll wasn't used as much back then - the exception is Stockton/Malone, who had abnormal chemistry and skill that made it worthwhile to run these lower efficiency, non-drive-and-kick screen rolls.

But in today's game, screen-roll is a higher efficiency, drive-and-kick play that everyone can use.. Today's screen-rolls are initiated further out on the floor, which allows the ballhandler a head of steam and bigger driving lane - this is the perfect, optimal setup for ballhandlers, as shown above with Westbrook.. Today's screen-roll setup is so deadly, that uncontested midrange jumpers are ALLOWED by the defense - uncontested midrange is how Westbrook dominated overtime last night, as shown in gifs above.

This is remarkable because Westbrook is a horrible midrange shooter, smaller, and less athletic than MJ.. Today's spacing would maximize MJ's superior athleticism, while the uncontested midrange would give him a free 2 points anytime he wanted - MJ would obliterate today's league - literally add 10 ppg and 10% fg to Westbrook's averages, just like MJ did in the 80's.

[Jameerthefear]

In previous eras, screen-roll was only used to hit the big man rolling, or pick-n-pop for a long 2-pointer - these are lower efficiency plays than today's screen roll, which is used for drive-and-kick, specifically drive-and-kick for 3-pointers.

The lower efficiency of previous era's screen rolls is why screen-roll wasn't used as much back then - the exception is Stockton/Malone, who had abnormal chemistry and skill that made it worthwhile to run these lower efficiency, non-drive-and-kick screen rolls.

But in today's game, screen-roll is a higher efficiency, drive-and-kick play that everyone can use.. Today's screen-rolls are initiated further out on the floor, which allows the ballhandler a head of steam and bigger driving lane - this is the perfect, optimal setup for ballhandlers, as shown above with Westbrook.. Today's screen-roll setup is so deadly, that uncontested midrange jumpers are ALLOWED by the defense - uncontested midrange is how Westbrook dominated overtime last night, as shown in gifs above.

This is remarkable because Westbrook is a horrible midrange shooter, smaller, and less athletic than MJ.. Today's spacing would maximize MJ's superior athleticism, while the uncontested midrange would give him a free 2 points anytime he wanted - MJ would obliterate today's league - literally add 10 ppg and 10% fg to Westbrook's averages, just like MJ did in the 80's.
no, you autist.
skiles even admitted to the mistake, he just didn't want to switch it mid-game because they aren't ready for adjustments.

[warriorfan]

Midrange isn't dead, just the players who have the skills to thrive in midrange are.

[3ball]

Midrange isn't dead, just the players who have the skills to thrive in midrange are.


Spot on.

People don't realize that midrange shots (10-23 feet) are taken more than any other shot in today's game.. And Westbrook's domination last night was an example of how easily-available midrange shots are:

In overtime, 4 of Westbrook's 5 shots were UNCONTESTED midrange shots.. The defense simply allows midrange shots in today's game because the paint is wide open in virtually every play.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

//

The modern NBA is much more advanced in defensive schemes. It is not so simple to say somethign and expect a result in that fashion!

Shooting Encouraged Spacing
Shooting Encouraged Spacing refers to the offensive floor spreading, occurring after Illegal Defense was removed in 2001. "Encouraged" implies that it is not mandatory, or enforced, to space the floor. Whereas with Rule Enforced Spacing, failure to spread the court with accordance to the Illegal Defense Guidelines, results in a technical and eventual free throws.

2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines
Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place

(Up coming quotes are from some of the most renowned and well respected NBA analysts and writers on the Earth today. Earning the big bucks because they are the best at what they do... Including ESPN's Henry Abbott, and Grantland's Zach Lowe)







Isolation and Post up plays are much easier to defend now compared to the Illegal Defense era. Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses, which require full court use, putting a premium on shooting ability enforced spacing (Not rule enforced spacing), passing and movement.



Conversely, this has had an effect on the specifics of personnel scoring, not necessarily team scoring output. Elite scorer numbers are down across the board, and this is in direct effect due to advanced defenses thanks to the removal of Illegal defense. With post ups and isolation plays being able to be defended much better, more ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.





David Thorpe


George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient





http://i.imgur.com/c09G6c1.gif
Dwight post up to face up drive to the hoop from the low post, while Steve Nash, Kobe, MWP, and Antwan Jamison spread the court with their 3 point shooting. Jameer sags off MWP and attempts to swipe the ball from Dwight. This would be an illegal defense in the 90's because it would be considered a double, but it was not a hard double, very much slow and awarely trying to zone and cover space. Dwight finishes strong with the nifty left hook.

http://i.imgur.com/OFCH8de.gif
Blake works in the low post. The strong side and rim is spaced due to having elite 3pt shooters Chris Paul and JJ Reddick at the top of the key, and Matt Barnes in the weakside corner 3. Deandre is baseline, creating a threat with his lob ability, so his defender has to keep contact and respect his offensive threat. This allows Blake to work his way in the post and get a great spin right hand hook shot. Also, noticed how Curry is jumping back and forth, trying to softly double and annoy Blake while being ready for pass out to Paul at the 3 line. This would be considered a clear illegal defense in the Rule Enforced Spacing era.

http://i.imgur.com/gMYnoFZ.gif
Lebron ISO drives to the rim for the AND1 while he has the floor spaced with Mozgov at the top, ready for an 18 footer which he can hit well, Delly and Shump at the 3, spacing the weakside, and Thompson spacing weakside baseline with his Lob ability, similar to Deandre Jordan.


Do you keep this post on hand on your computer just for whenever 3ball says stupid shiT?
:lol :lol

[GrapeApe]

Midrange isn't dead, just the players who have the skills to thrive in midrange are.

Shockingly good post.

If the midrange is dead it's because there's a lack of players who properly develop a midrange game. There's several players in the league who would be much more effective if they had an in-between-game to go to when their 3 ball isn't dropping. For half the perimeter players in the league it seems like it's either a 3 pointer, a dunk/layup, or nothing. Having a midrange game makes a player much more difficult to defend.

[nba_55]

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Rule Enforced Spacing
Rule Enforced Spacing relates to the offensive floor spacing teams achieved during the Illegal Defense period (1981-2001)

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book


Effect:
1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
[COLOR="Blue"]

[Mike Armstrong]

MJ would be GOAT in any era. Everybody knows this, so OP is just wasting his breath.

[Smoke117]

Shockingly good post.

If the midrange is dead it's because there's a lack of players who properly develop a midrange game. There's several players in the league who would be much more effective if they had an in-between-game to go to when their 3 ball isn't dropping. For half the perimeter players in the league it seems like it's either a 3 pointer, a dunk/layup, or nothing. Having a midrange game makes a player much more difficult to defend.

James Harden comes to mind immediately for me...though what he desperately needs to work is on some floaters and scoop shots. He breaks down his man easily enough, but he's not that great of a finisher at the rim. He drives for the foul most of the time, but if he had some floaters/scoop shots like Wade and Parker he'd be a lot more effective and not have to get all the way to the rim.

[3ball]

How can midrange be "dead" when shots between 10-23 feet are taken more than any other shot?

Seriously, why keep repeating an ignorant media talking point when it's clearly wrong?... You form your basketball opinions based on what the media says - they're wrong more than they're right, and this is a great example.

In last night's overtime, four of Westbrook's five shots were UNCONTESTED midrange shots - this is standard in today's game - look at Mudiay - he will build his career on midrange pull-ups.. The defense simply allows midrange shots in today's game because the paint is wide open in virtually every play.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

[warriorfan]

Why do you think there are so many 3 and D players in the league today? It's because players are not as skilled as they used to be.

Prospects are now scouted based on their athletic ceiling over their basketball skills. People figure that you can't teach freak athleticism but on the flip side they need to realize that you can't teach everyone top level basketball skills. So in return you get raw athletic players that can only shoot 3's, finish inside, and play defense. In order to have a polished midrange game you need to have very legit skills. Those skills aren't as much of a priority when compared to athletic talent when players are being prospected. It's easier for players to launch 3's rather than building a complete offensive game, and now with the new coaching philosophies and rule changes they have the green light to do it.

[3ball]

Do you keep this post on hand on your computer just for whenever 3ball says stupid shiT?



http://lookingforamerica.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Nba-Basketball-Court-Dimensions-300x300.jpg


Except GIF REACTION made it all up - there isn't a single rule in previous eras that "enforces spacing", and he never provided one.. Here are the facts: defenders in previous eras could sag off offensive players who are behind the 3-point line MORE than today's defenders can.

Just like today's game, defenders in previous eras could sag off 3-point shooters, and even dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds.. However, when defending corner/sideline 3-pointers, defenders in previous eras could sag off and paint-camp "with no time limits" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown in diagram above..

Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.. Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras.
.

[Blue&Orange]

this mid range talks is nonsense. Games would be layups drills for Jordan.

[3ball]

this mid range talks is nonsense. Games would be layups drills for Jordan.
Agreed.. In last night's overtime, four of Westbrook's five shots were uncontested midrange shots (shown in the OP) - this is standard in today's game - look at Mudiay - he will build his career on midrange pull-ups..

The defense simply allows midrange shots in today's game because of the spacing and resulting wide open paint.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

[GrapeApe]

Agreed.. In last night's overtime, four of Westbrook's five shots were uncontested midrange shots (shown in the OP) - this is standard in today's game - look at Mudiay - he will build his career on midrange pull-ups..

The defense simply allows midrange shots in today's game because of the spacing and resulting wide open paint.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

This is actually true to a degree, but the midrange shot is without question one of the most difficult to defend. It's essentially no-man's land for a defense and very disruptive to rotations. A player with a strong midrange game and the ability to break down his defender can get a high percentage look on nearly any possession. This is also true of players who excel off the ball and can exploit the holes in the defense. The same logic applies to football in terms of the intermediate areas being the toughest to defend. Any QB can take check downs and throw deep, but the great QB's know how to attack the middle of the field and find the soft spots in the defense.

[diamenz]

3ball, you're getting trolled hard as **** in your own thread.

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ 10-23 feet being mid-range


Anything 6-11 feet = short 2's

Mid-range = 12-17 feet.

18 feet to 3pt line = a long 2.

[3ball]

Anything 6-11 feet = short 2's (43.6%)

Mid-range = 12-17 feet (35.8%)

18 feet to 3pt line = a long 2 (38.8%)



As the bolded above shows, Lebron has horrific percentages from all of the distances you picked.

Long and short 2's are under the broad category of midrange.. Midrange is considered anything that isn't at-rim or 3-pointer.. So from 4 feet to 23 feet... That's where nearly 2/3 of all shots are taken.

For the purposes of this thread, I went with 10-23 feet, as shown on basketball-reference.

[3ball]

This is actually true to a degree, but the midrange shot is without question one of the most difficult to defend. It's essentially no-man's land for a defense and very disruptive to rotations. A player with a strong midrange game and the ability to break down his defender can get a high percentage look on nearly any possession. This is also true of players who excel off the ball and can exploit the holes in the defense. The same logic applies to football in terms of the intermediate areas being the toughest to defend. Any QB can take check downs and throw deep, but the great QB's know how to attack the middle of the field and find the soft spots in the defense.



Agreed.. Midrange attempts are the least preventable, so a defense must rely on a good contest.. Also, for a good midrange shooter, their higher FG% on midrange shots becomes important on must-have possessions in the clutch, when there isn't a "long-term" to make the layups/3-pointer shot allocation more favorable - this is why all clutch players have great midrange.

Look at Kawhi vs. Durant in the possessions they scored on each other, shown below - 6 of Kawhi's 13 field goals were midrange jumpshots.. 3 of Durant's 6 fg's were midrange jumpshots - midrange is how you have a big scoring game and score against great defenders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhJnmnllAII


Also, since high shot volume can't be achieved on all 3-pointers and layups, good midrange efficiency is required to shoot WELL at high volume.. Unfortunately, Lebron's career 37% efficiency at the additional midrange required of high volume shooting meant he isn't capable of shooting well at high volume and therefore doesn't require a double-team to PREVENT high volume, as the playoffs showed.

At 39%, it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming - they only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals.. Compare that to MJ, where his high efficiency at high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too.. As you can see, midrange is the key to goat-level skill.
.

[Showtime80']

Hell of a post Warriorsfan, hell of a post!

The truth is post play and mid range game started dying in the mid 90's, long before the new soft zone rules came into play. The new age "big man" like Rasheed Wallace, Chris Webber, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Stoudamire etc... were very perimeter oriented since they were teenagers! Tim Duncan was the last true solid back to the basket big man drafted and that was in 1997!

The NBA started looking for the next Jordan in the middle of the decade and in a great error in judgment thought that anybody with the same body frame and athleticism would fit the bill forgetting that MJ had some of the most solid fundamentals, work ethic and basketball IQ ever seen in the basketball world and THOSE QUALITIES were not as easy to find as freakish athleticism.

What's easier to develop? Kevin McHale's, James Worthy's, Hakeem Olajuwon's or Kareem's post and mid range games or being a perimeter oriented player like Dirk, Garnett or Webber? The answer is easy and that's why the NBA became the "lay up or 3 pointer" cesspool you see today and it has NOTHING to do with rule changes!

[Smoke117]

Hell of a post Warriorsfan, hell of a post!

The truth is post play and mid range game started dying in the mid 90's, long before the new soft zone rules came into play. The new age "big man" like Rasheed Wallace, Chris Webber, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Stoudamire etc... were very perimeter oriented since they were teenagers! Tim Duncan was the last true solid back to the basket big man drafted and that was in 1997!

The NBA started looking for the next Jordan in the middle of the decade and in a great error in judgment thought that anybody with the same body frame and athleticism would fit the bill forgetting that MJ had some of the most solid fundamentals, work ethic and basketball IQ ever seen in the basketball world and THOSE QUALITIES were not as easy to find as freakish athleticism.

What's easier to develop? Kevin McHale's, James Worthy's, Hakeem Olajuwon's or Kareem's post and mid range games or being a perimeter oriented player like Dirk, Garnett or Webber? The answer is easy and that's why the NBA became the "lay up or 3 pointer" cesspool you see today and it has NOTHING to do with rule changes!

Yao Ming?

[Showtime80']

True forgot about Yao and without the injuries he would've been remembered differently but he did not come up in the "I wanna be like Mike" American AAU system of the 90's

[dhsilv]

The highest proportion of shots are taken between 10-23 feet - midrange shots are the most-used shots in the game dumbass - this is statistical fact.

4 out of Westbrook's 5 shots in OT were UNCONTESTED MIDRANGE... The defense allows midrange shots in today's game - the paint is wide open in virtually every play.

Year % Mid Range Attempted % Mid Range Made
2015 26.21% 23.05%
2014 26.85% 23.26%
2013 28.37% 24.53%
2012 30.29% 26.13%
2011 31.08% 27.08%
2010 31.48% 27.23%
2009 32.19% 28.11%
2008 32.97% 28.94%
2007 33.05% 28.72%
2006 34.45% 30.17%
2005 35.45% 31.03%
2004 35.64% 31.02%
2003 36.93% 32.27%
2002 37.10% 32.61%
2001 37.89% 33.42%
2000 38.19% 33.58%
1998 36.74% 31.71%
1999 36.99% 32.19%
1997 39.69% 35.10%

From nba.com

Bottom line the 40% claim is incorrect, based on reality. :)

[3ball]

Bottom line the 40% claim is incorrect, based on reality. :)


Even though 3-pointers have replaced some midrange, midrange is still the most-used shot in the game, more than 3-pointers.

As Westbrook showed against Orlando, the midrange area is wide open for anyone to get open shots because today's 3-point shooting and defensive 3 seconds forces defenders to leave the paint wide open.





based on reality. :)


For a good midrange shooter, their higher FG% on midrange shots becomes important on must-have possessions in the clutch, when there isn't a "long-term" to make the layups/3-pointer shot allocation more favorable - this is why all clutch players have great midrange.

Look at Kawhi vs. Durant in the possessions they scored on each other, shown below - 6 of Kawhi's 13 field goals were midrange jumpshots.. 3 of Durant's 6 fg's were midrange jumpshots - midrange is how you have a big scoring game and score against great defenders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhJnmnllAII


Also, since high shot volume can't be achieved on all 3-pointers and layups, good midrange efficiency is required to shoot WELL at high volume.. Unfortunately, Lebron's career 37% efficiency at the additional midrange required of high volume shooting meant he isn't capable of shooting well at high volume and therefore doesn't require a double-team to PREVENT high volume, as the playoffs showed.

At 39%, it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming - they only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals.. Compare that to MJ, where his high efficiency at high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too.. As you can see, midrange is the key to goat-level skill.

[iamgine]

Jordan was nowhere the shooter Curry is.

[3ball]

What's easier to develop? Kevin McHale's, James Worthy's, Hakeem Olajuwon's or Kareem's post and mid range games or being a perimeter oriented player like Dirk, Garnett or Webber? The answer is easy and that's why the NBA became the "lay up or 3 pointer" cesspool you see today and it has NOTHING to do with rule changes!


You misunderstand what "midrange" is.. It isn't just the post games of Kareem, Hakeem and the like... "Midrange" also includes the scoring repertoires of Worthy, Bernard King, Alex English, Larry Bird, MJ - it's any shot taken within the midrange area, which can include all shots that aren't layups or 3-pointers.

The reason midrange shots aren't the staple of players' repertoires anymore is because the NBA changed the rules to make penetration easier and promote drive-and-kick - the NBA said so itself:


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

NBA: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

NBA: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

NBA: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.
.

[3ball]

Jordan was nowhere the shooter Curry is.


You're right - MJ was a far better 2-point shooter, especially under duress...

Let me know when Curry gets 40, 50, or 60 points on all two-pointers... Or averages 35 and 37 ppg on all 2-pointers with 60% ts.. :rolleyes:

Curry can't even average 20 or 25 on all 2-pointers.. :rolleyes:

The chasm between previous era's best and today's best is huge.

[iamgine]

Also, other than Curry much superior shooter, as good as GSW is now, Jordan also had better supporting casts.

[3ball]

Also, other than Curry much superior shooter, as good as GSW is now, Jordan also had better supporting casts.
let me know when Curry scores 50 on all 2-point jumpshots or averages 35-37 ppg on all two-pointers and 60% ts.. until then, MJ is a far better 2-point shooter then steph curry.

also, it's obvious that MJ had much worse supporting casts and carried a far bigger load because his stats are better than Curry's could ever dream of.. Infact, Curry's team is so stacked, he can't even win fmvp.

[dhsilv]

Even though 3-pointers have replaced some midrange, midrange is still the most-used shot in the game, more than 3-pointers.

As Westbrook showed against Orlando, the midrange area is wide open for anyone to get open shots because today's 3-point shooting and defensive 3 seconds forces defenders to leave the paint wide open.



For a good midrange shooter, their higher FG% on midrange shots becomes important on must-have possessions in the clutch, when there isn't a "long-term" to make the layups/3-pointer shot allocation more favorable - this is why all clutch players have great midrange.

Look at Kawhi vs. Durant in the possessions they scored on each other, shown below - 6 of Kawhi's 13 field goals were midrange jumpshots.. 3 of Durant's 6 fg's were midrange jumpshots - midrange is how you have a big scoring game and score against great defenders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhJnmnllAII


Also, since high shot volume can't be achieved on all 3-pointers and layups, good midrange efficiency is required to shoot WELL at high volume.. Unfortunately, Lebron's career 37% efficiency at the additional midrange required of high volume shooting meant he isn't capable of shooting well at high volume and therefore doesn't require a double-team to PREVENT high volume, as the playoffs showed.

At 39%, it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming - they only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals.. Compare that to MJ, where his high efficiency at high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too.. As you can see, midrange is the key to goat-level skill.

http://i.imgur.com/JVDTCcq.jpg

The most common shots are in the paint. With even more last season slightly more 3's were attempted than mid range 2's.

http://i.imgur.com/6QGcPoS.jpg

Looking at our top 5 scorers from last year the 10-3p range only Westbrook took more than 33% of his shots from this zone. The stats once again do not backup your statements.

As for your wild ideas on what all this means, I don't have any reason to engage in that. We all know part of being a great scorer is the ability to score and the more options you have the better.

[3ball]

The stats do not backup your statements.


Your stats absolutely back up me up:

Paint shots in previous eras have the same proportion as today - otherwise, the biggest category is still midrange.

Yor data is arbitrary anyway - many paint shots ARE midrange - a 10 foot shot near the FT line is a midrange shot.. And again, shots taken from 10-23 feet are taken more frequently than any other shot..

And don't forget the point of the thread - Westbrook dominated the Magic by making 4 uncontested midrange shots in OT.. The wide open midrange coupled with a high scrreen roll/spaced-out court that is optimally arranged for ballhandlers would allow MJ to dominate today's game more than ever.. Especially considering he's bigger, stronger, with more hops and far better shooter than Westbrorok.

[dhsilv]

Your stats absolutely back up me up:

Paint shots in previous eras have the same proportion as today - otherwise, the biggest category is still midrange.

Yor data is arbitrary anyway - many paint shots ARE midrange - a 10 foot shot near the FT line is a midrange shot.. And again, shots taken from 10-23 feet are taken more frequently than any other shot..

And don't forget the point of the thread - Westbrook dominated the Magic by making 4 uncontested midrange shots in OT.. The wide open midrange coupled with a high scrreen roll/spaced-out court that is optimally arranged for ballhandlers would allow MJ to dominate today's game more than ever.. Especially considering he's bigger, stronger, with more hops and far better shooter than Westbrorok.

The first set by team is from NBA.com and is ONLY paint shots. You're correct there could be overlap in the second data point as a 10 foot arch could have over lap (I used basketball reference for those due honestly just because I'm more familiar with their data and nba.com is kinda a pain to use).

The data shows that last season more shots were attempted from the 3 point range than the mid range as defined by the NBA.

I'm just posting to fact check you since you constantly post false information and state it as a fact. This thread like all your posts is complete nonsense and idiotic. I"m just trying to avoid you spreading false statements. Nothing more nothing less.

[Jameerthefear]

Holy shit. June 2015 comin out and SHITTING on 3ball with facts.

[3ball]

The first set by team is from NBA.com and is ONLY paint shots. You're correct there could be overlap in the second data point as a 10 foot arch could have over lap (I used basketball reference for those due honestly just because I'm more familiar with their data and nba.com is kinda a pain to use).

The data shows that last season more shots were attempted from the 3 point range than the mid range as defined by the NBA.

I'm just posting to fact check you since you constantly post false information and state it as a fact. This thread like all your posts is complete nonsense and idiotic. I"m just trying to avoid you spreading false statements. Nothing more nothing less.
but you didn't correct anything - shots between 10-23 feet are the shots most frequently taken in today's game...

Btw, midrange is actually ALL shots other than at-rim and 3-pointers - any definition other than this is arbitrary, even my definition of 10-23 feet.. So you wasted your time - my statement was correct.. Midrange is the most frequently taken shot in today's game.

also, you haven't refuted the thread title or any other assertion itt, so it's unclear why you think the thread is idiotic - otoh, if you're saying that a perpetually open paint with defenders spaced-out to the maximum and screen roll initiated 30 feet from the hoop WOULDN'T be optimal for MJ's game, then you're the idiot.

[dhsilv]

but you didn't correct anything - shots between 10-23 feet are the shots most frequently taken in today's game...

Btw, in reality, midrange is actually ALL shots other than at-rim and 3-pointers - any definition other than this is arbitrary, even my definition of 10-23 feet.. So you wasted your time - my statement was correct.. Midrange is the most frequently taken shot in today's game.

also, you haven't refuted the thread title's assertion or any other assertion itt, so you're just spouting off by saying this thread is idiotic - because if you're saying that a perpetually open paint with defenders spaced-out to the maximum and screen roll initiated 30 feet from the hoop to further enhance spacing WOULDN'T be optimal for MJ's game, then you're the idiot.

NBA has defined a mid range which is anything not in the paint and not a 3.

In 2015 those shots made up 26.21% of shots (not the absurd 40% you claimed was a statistical fact and why I posted this). 3 point attempts made up 26.69%.

26.69>26.21

The 3 pointer was shot more last season than mid range as defined by the NBA. While you can argue it's arbitrary, this is how the league defines it and thus is the official definition.

As for the topic, I seriously don't care. MJ is an old man and retired. He isn't playing in today's game and trying to play the game of moving him to today's game is silly. It might be entertaining if you didn't post 10 of these thread a day, but seriously you're actually making talking about Jordan painful. I seriously never thought that was possible, and didn't hate seeing Space Jam!

[90sgoat]

dhsilv, can you find me stats for mid range FG% year by year?

[catch24]

NBA has defined a mid range which is anything not in the paint and not a 3.

In 2015 those shots made up 26.21% of shots (not the absurd 40% you claimed was a statistical fact and why I posted this). 3 point attempts made up 26.69%.

26.69>26.21

The 3 pointer was shot more last season than mid range as defined by the NBA. While you can argue it's arbitrary, this is how the league defines it and thus is the official definition.

As for the topic, I seriously don't care. MJ is an old man and retired. He isn't playing in today's game and trying to play the game of moving him to today's game is silly. It might be entertaining if you didn't post 10 of these thread a day, but seriously you're actually making talking about Jordan painful. I seriously never thought that was possible, and didn't hate seeing Space Jam!

3ball getting wrecked in this thread, tbh

The game is centered around 3PT shooting now, not midrange like your originally claimed.

[StephHamann]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1890145/perkins.gif

if you are able to knock down midrange Js you are immeaditly one of the top guys in the league.

Moreyball (3 pointers and layups) is the focus of 99% of all gameplans in the NBA, and the defense adjusts to that gameplan. If you are able to knock down the midrange J you can effectively destroy that defensive gameplan.

No wonder most top 30 guys that are not Centers had a brilliant midrange game.

Bird,Dirk,Jordan,West,Garnett etc. pp

[dhsilv]

dhsilv, can you find me stats for mid range FG% year by year?

Sure, what exactly do you want?

[sd3035]

3ball just got wrecked

[3ball]

NBA has defined a mid range which is anything not in the paint and not a 3.

In 2015 those shots made up 26.21% of shots (not the absurd 40% you claimed was a statistical fact and why I posted this). 3 point attempts made up 26.69%.

26.69>26.21

The 3 pointer was shot more last season than mid range as defined by the NBA. While you can argue it's arbitrary, this is how the league defines it and thus is the official definition.


So a 10-footer is midrange if it's taken on the baseline, but not midrange if it's taken in the paint?... This is the way you think about the game just because the NBA's website says so (because they're too lazy to differentiate between the two)??.. What are you, 12 years old?

A 10-footer in the paint is a midrange shot - my statement that midrange was the most-used shot was based on a 10-23 foot range, regardless of whether that 10-16 footer is in taken in the paint or not.. :rolleyes:

And again - the point of the thread is what a previous poster just said - midrange is how you bust a good defense and score in the clutch.. Westbrook took over in OT with midrange, and his midrange was uncontested - midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to the spaced-out court and open paint.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

[dhsilv]

So a 10-footer is midrange if it's taken on the baseline, but not midrange if it's taken in the paint?... This is the way you think about the game just because the NBA's website says so (because they're too lazy to differentiate between the two)??.. What are you, 12 years old?

A 10-footer in the paint is a midrange shot - my statement that midrange was the most-used shot was based on a 10-23 foot range, regardless of whether that 10-16 footer is in taken in the paint or not.. :rolleyes:

And again - the point of the thread is what a previous poster just said - midrange is how you bust a good defense and score in the clutch.. Westbrook took over in OT with midrange, and his midrange was uncontested - midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to the spaced-out court and open paint.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

I can break down the numbers differently instead of using zones I can use distance. Some of us what accuracy and the official definitions from the NBA seemed better. They also break it down by multiple different distances.

You stated mid range was the most used shot. Then once proven it wasn't you said, it was the most used OTHER than paint shots. Now that I've shown even that is incorrect you want to change how the shots are classified. Yet you you've still not admitted that your 40% claim was absurd.

When looking at the elite scorers in the game, we once again see that they generally like shooting 3's and/or paint shots. Not perhaps as biased as the league as a whole is (none are big men and at least two of them do not really have a great 3 point shot).

Here's the thing 3ball. If you're right and you're facts are wrong...nobody is going to take you seriously. Admit you were wrong about your facts. Go back and figure out why you think you're right when your support was incorrect and maybe I'll engage your talking point. I'm not going to waste my time when you just go around making up stats to fit your agenda. It takes actual time go pull in data and calculate these things, but I have to do it damn near every time I even consider responding to you because you constantly make things up or worse yet post stats that don't even remotely support your point. Normally I just ignore you, but every now and then at least the information I'm gathering seems relevant to the topics on the board, so I go ahead and pull in the data.

If you want people to engage you by all means make smart intelligent posts and fact check yourself before posting. If you reduced your posts by 50% and increased the quality you'd get much better discussions. Maybe even some where you don't just repost the same thing over and over again.

[90sgoat]

Sure, what exactly do you want?

League wide % for shots from different distances pr. year?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Stop deleting and re-posting your stuff you ****ing ****. That's the second or third time in the last 10 minutes that you've bumped this shit with a delete+re-post.

[3ball]

Some of us think the official definitions from the NBA seemed better.

You stated mid range was the most used shot. Then once proven it wasn't you said, it was the most used OTHER than paint shots. Now that I've shown even that is incorrect you want to change how the shots are classified.


The paint is 16 x 19 feet, but according to your data, a 16 footer isn't midrange if it's taken in the paint... That's ridiculous, and it nullifies your data.

Also, I've never changed my definition of midrange itt - I said midrange is defined as shots between 10-23 feet - however, your definition wants to exclude 10-16 footers if they're taken in the paint, which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

And again, midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.. But regardless of what definition you want to use, one thing we know for certain is that midrange doesn't exclude a 12 or 16 footer just because it's in the paint.. Only dumb people would go along with that.

So again, midrange shots - shots between 10-23 feet, or whatever distances you want to assign, are the most frequently-used shots in the game.. Furthermore, as Westbrook showed with his midrange clinic in OT the other nigh - midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power..

[24-Inch_Chrome]

4th time. Mods, ban this idiot. 4 re-posts of the exact thing post.

[3ball]

4th time. Mods, ban this idiot. 4 re-posts of the exact thing post.
Where did I post the same thing??... Stop lying just because I'm destroying dhsilv and exposing his stupidity

[ShawkFactory]

Where did I post the same thing??... Stop lying just because I'm destroying dhsilv and exposing his stupidity
Is that what you think is happening?? So adorable

[catch24]

The paint is 16 x 19 feet, but according to your data, a 16 footer isn't midrange if it's taken in the paint... That's ridiculous, and it nullifies your data.

The freethrow line is 15 feet from the basket. How the hell do you shoot a "16 footer" in the paint?

What kind of drugs are you on right now?

[3ball]

The freethrow line is 15 feet from the basket. How the hell do you shoot a "16 footer" in the paint?

What kind of drugs are you on right now?
The paint is 16 x 19 feet, but the basket is 4 feet in front of the baseline, so it's easy to get confused.. Regardless, a 14 or 15-footer attempted in the paint is a midrange shot, whereas dhsilv says it isn't, which is ridiculous and dumb.

And again, midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.. But regardless of what definition you want to use, one thing we know for certain is that midrange doesn't exclude 12 or 14-footers just because they're taken in the paint.. Only dumb people would go along with that.

So again, midrange shots - shots between 10-23 feet, or whatever distances you want to assign, are the most frequently-used shots in the game.. Furthermore, as Westbrook showed with his midrange clinic in OT the other nigh - midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power..

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Where did I post the same thing??... Stop lying just because I'm destroying dhsilv and exposing his stupidity

I have watched you delete and re-post the exact same thing at 2:50, 2:52, 2:55, and 3:02. The thread was updated as containing unread posts at those times, and every time it was your post (containing the exact same information).

[3ball]

I have watched you delete and re-post the exact same thing at 2:50, 2:52, 2:55, and 3:02. The thread was updated as containing unread posts at those times, and every time it was your post (containing the exact same information).


Damn n igga... I've never been more rent free.. :oldlol: :dancin :hammertime: :yaohappy:

[kshutts1]

Midrange today = 3p of Jordan's time.

Not dead, not useless. Just not enough players that focus/are good in that aspect of the game.

And I only skimmed through the first two pages of blather. Has no one yet taken offense to Westbrook being called less athletic than Jordan? I have no clue what their measureables are, but the eye-test says they are in the same ballpark. I'd hardly call one better than the other.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Damn n igga... I've never been more rent free.. :oldlol: :dancin :hammertime: :yaohappy:

Yeah, my user CP being bumped every ****ing time you re-post your garbage is rent free. :rolleyes:

[kshutts1]

I also want to point out that 3ball is posting that midrange, defined as ANY shot that is NOT at rim or behind the 3p line, is the most used in the game.

Very quick mathematical calculations show that...

Area of regularly used portion of the half-court = 50' (width) x 27' (length) = 1350 square feet.

Approx area of inside arc = [pi(radius^2)]/2 = [3.141592(23^2)]/2 = 830.95 square feet

Approx area of "at rim" shots = [3.141592(3^2)]/2 = 14.137 square feet

So midrange encompasses (830.95-14.137)/1350 % of the usable area.. otherwise known as 60.5% of the usable area. Is it any surprise that the majority of the space is used the majority of the time?

[dhsilv]

The paint is 16 x 19 feet, but according to your data, a 16 footer isn't midrange if it's taken in the paint... That's ridiculous, and it nullifies your data.

Also, I've never changed my definition of midrange itt - I said midrange is defined as shots between 10-23 feet - however, your definition wants to exclude 10-16 footers if they're taken in the paint, which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

And again, midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.. But regardless of what definition you want to use, one thing we know for certain is that midrange doesn't exclude a 12 or 16 footer just because it's in the paint.. Only dumb people would go along with that.

So again, midrange shots - shots between 10-23 feet, or whatever distances you want to assign, are the most frequently-used shots in the game.. Furthermore, as Westbrook showed with his midrange clinic in OT the other nigh - midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint.. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power..

The nba lists shots by zone. They post inside the restricted area, paint outside the restricted area, mid range, left corner, right corner, and whatever else is infront of the basket and a 3.

I took the mid range numbers from the nba. I'm not 100% how they define it or if there is some overlap in the data.

All I did was take the official data from the official source using their terms which should be seen as the official terms. If you don't like the term, please use a different term and call it 3ball range.

Now i could break it down differently, they provide 5 and 8 foot (fact check that) segments. I didn't use those in part because the 3 point line is not consistent and the ranges caused overlap. I by no means was attempting to cherry pick data. I simply was providing you and everyone reading with officially what the stats were.

If you want to argue with the nba's definitions, email them. Start a thread discussing why the nba is wrong. But please don't post silly responses like this. You should by this point be well aware I'm not posting these things for any reason other than I wanted to post correct information and provide useful data. I honestly don't understand what you're trying to argue so I couldn't tell you if I agree or disagree. This whole thing seems like the biggest waste of time ever. I mean are you really trying to claim that being good at creating shots in multiple zones is a good thing? I mean....duh? Outside of center is there any guard who you'd want with the ball not well above average in at least 3 of the zone's the NBA defined? Hell if they're not league average or better in 4 of the zones that would be a problem. But that doesn't that mid range is not 40% of shots by the NBA's data and definitions.

[dhsilv]

The paint is 16 x 19 feet, but the basket is 4 feet in front of the baseline, so it's easy to get confused.. Regardless, a 14 or 15-footer attempted in the paint is a midrange shot, whereas dhsilv says it isn't, which is ridiculous and dumb.


Me???????????????

You mean the NBA? And again I'm just guessing on how they did this crap. I just pulled zone data from them, threw it into excel and calculated %'s in each zone. Not my fault if you don't official data.

[3ball]

Me???????????????

You mean the NBA? And again I'm just guessing on how they did this crap. I just pulled zone data from them, threw it into excel and calculated %'s in each zone. Not my fault if you don't official data.
It doesn't matter what the NBA website says.. A website can be wrong.

Otoh, we can look up midrange in the dictionary - we know for a fact that midrange refers to DISTANCE, and a 12-foot shot taken in the paint is a midrange shot... Again, shots taken between 10-23 feet are taken more frequently than any other shot - no amount of data will change that... And midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.

Regardless of what distances you want to assign, Westbrook's midrange clinic against Orlando showed us that midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint (as shown in the OP).. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

[Stu Jackson]

3ball has all of you shook :lol

[dhsilv]

It doesn't matter what the NBA website says.. A website can be wrong.

Otoh, we can look up midrange in the dictionary - we know for a fact that midrange refers to DISTANCE, and a 12-foot shot taken in the paint is a midrange shot... Again, shots taken between 10-23 feet are taken more frequently than any other shot - no amount of data will change that... And midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.

Regardless of what distances you want to assign, Westbrook's midrange clinic against Orlando showed us that midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint (as shown in the OP).. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

Dude just say it.

"I"m wrong"

That's all you gotta do and people will respect you 100x more.

[3ball]

3ball has all of you shook :lol
These fools can't accept reality.

[3ball]

Dude just say it.

"I"m wrong"

That's all you gotta do and people will respect you 100x more.


Shots taken between 10-23 feet (midrange) are taken more frequently than any other shot - no amount of data will change that... And midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.

Regardless of what distances you want to assign, Westbrook's midrange clinic against Orlando showed us that midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint (as shown in the OP).. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

June 2015 with the W. :applause:

When 3ball resorts to just copy+pasting the same crap, he's lost.

[Stu Jackson]

3ball has you all shook :lol

cant mess with his facts

[dhsilv]

Shots taken between 10-23 feet (midrange) are taken more frequently than any other shot - no amount of data will change that... And midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.

"I was wrong:"


You have to say it before anyone will ever accept another line from you. And you just said posting proof that you're wrong won't change that you're wrong. What kind of sick ass are you? Seriously? What did your mother do wrong? Were you beaten as a kid? Seriously, this is some twisted crap you're posting.

[Stu Jackson]

"I was wrong:"


You have to say it before anyone will ever accept another line from you. And you just said posting proof that you're wrong won't change that you're wrong. What kind of sick ass are you? Seriously? What did your mother do wrong? Were you beaten as a kid? Seriously, this is some twisted crap you're posting.
3ball in your head :lol

i bet you never even dunked before

3ball has posted pictures of him going chest to chest off two feet

unathletic scrub :lol

[3ball]

"I was wrong:"


You have to say it before anyone will ever accept another line from you. And you just said posting proof that you're wrong won't change that you're wrong. What kind of sick ass are you? Seriously? What did your mother do wrong? Were you beaten as a kid? Seriously, this is some twisted crap you're posting.

You melted down.. I addressed your issues but you didn't address the thread title - how is this not the optimal setup for MJ again?


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2015/ppFxTf.gif

[dhsilv]

League wide % for shots from different distances pr. year?

The NBA has 3 ways it presents the data. I don't have it all gathered and oddly I have some on one computer and another set on this one. Anyway just an idea. Honestly there are clear differences in shot selection over time, but using this sample I'm not seeing differences in accuracy or at least notable as far back as the NBA has it recorded. I'll see if some other breakdowns give more details.

http://i.imgur.com/Elct7m7.png

[dhsilv]

You melted down.. I addressed your issues but you didn't address the thread title - how is this not the optimal setup for MJ again?


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2015/ppFxTf.gif

If you can't admit you're incorrect, what is the point of going further? I'm not going to play a game where you make up your own facts. You get to have opinions, not facts.

[3ball]

If you can't admit you're incorrect, what is the point of going further? I'm not going to play a game where you make up your own facts. You get to have opinions, not facts.


How am I incorrect?... I said that 10-23 footers are midrange shots, which is true.. You posted erroneous data that says 10-15 footers in the paint are NOT midrange shots, which is ridiculous.

I would never agree that a 10 to 15-footer in the paint isn't a midrange shot... Any data that says so is understating the number of midrange attempts.

Again, shots taken between 10-23 feet (midrange) are taken more frequently than any other shot - this is statistical fact... And midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.

Regardless of what distances you want to assign, Westbrook's midrange clinic against Orlando showed us that midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint (as shown in the OP).. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

[Paul George 24]

Jordan wouldn't even make an NBA roster in today's game
wade won't able play in 90s,because his legs will broken :roll:

[dhsilv]

How am I incorrect?... I said that 10-23 footers are midrange shots, which is true.. You posted erroneous data that says 10-15 footers in the paint are NOT midrange shots, which is ridiculous.

I would never agree that a 10 to 15-footer in the paint isn't a midrange shot... Any data that says so is understating the number of midrange attempts.

Again, shots taken between 10-23 feet (midrange) are taken more frequently than any other shot - this is statistical fact... And midrange shots are actually ANY shot that isn't a 3-pointer or at-rim, so my definition of 10-23 feet is generous.

Regardless of what distances you want to assign, Westbrook's midrange clinic against Orlando showed us that midrange shots are easier to get in today's game, due to defensive 3 seconds and a spaced-out court that opens up the paint (as shown in the OP).. It's the perfect storm for an elite ballhandler and midrange shooter like MJ, let alone a bad shooter like Westbrook, who is smaller with less hops and power.

You said mid range. I cited the official midrange data. You said 40% and there's no mixing or data that would make that statement correct.

There's no material differences in field goal percentages by really any range from 97 till today. This indicates that you're incorrect on the westbrook comments as well.

Unless you can show me 40% with hard data, you're incorrect and trolling.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You said mid range. I cited the official midrange data. You said 40% and there's no mixing or data that would make that statement correct.

There's no material differences in field goal percentages by really any range from 97 till today. This indicates that you're incorrect on the westbrook comments as well.

Unless you can show me 40% with hard data, you're incorrect and trolling.

Ignore him. He just copy+pastes the same crap when he's lost an argument. :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

Midrange isn't dead because of how the game has changed, there's just few players who are truly great at it because everyone is either practicing how to dunk or shoot from 3. MJ was elite from midrange off screens, catch and shoot, off the dribble. There's no reason he wouldn't thrive today when last season's fcuking scoring champion basically lives off drives and mid range pullups while shooting .299 from 3.

MJ was also a good enough 3point shooter after 1990 that you at least had to respect it, that would setup his drives either to the basket or where he could get to his optimal midrange spots. Some guys try way too hard to say MJ would be less successful in todays game, when we see clearly inferior players thriving. He was also a dominant enough postup force at guard that he required a double team down low, surround him with shooters and he's going to be absolutely lethal.