2003 - GOAT Year for Top Level Players? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

ArbitraryWater

11-01-2015, 12:44 PM

A Top 6 consisting of Duncan, Shaq, KG, Dirk, Kobe, T-Mac...

Duncan, Kobe, T-Mac at their peak, KG one year ahead of Peak, Dirk around Peak level... Kidd wasn't shabby either.

Dirk 25/10/3 on 46%, 25/12 on 48% in the playoffs, on his way to winning the title before his injury, having just beaten the Blazers and Kings in 2 fantastic individual 7 game series' (multiple 40 point games, not one game under 10 rebounds, capped off by great game 7's).

Kobe 30/7/6 on 45%, defensive team, 40+ point streak

T-Mac 32/7/6 on 46%, forced the Pistons to 7 games, back-to-back playoff 40 point games

Shaq 28/11/3 on 57%, 27/15/4 on 54% in the playoffs, all defensive second team

Duncan 23/13/4 on 51%, 25/15/5 on 55% in the playoffs, MVP, title, Finals MVP, all defensive first team

KG 23/13/6 on 50%, 27/16/5 on 51% in the playoffs, all defensive first team

Any shame in the fact that in this years NBA, I wouldn't take one player over any of those? Depends on how it pans out, obviously... might be KD, underdog chances for Bron and Curry, depends on how Bron holds up and what Curry continues to do.

Definitely one of the best seasons of individual elite.

STATUTORY

11-01-2015, 12:48 PM

in the toughest defensive and most offensive depressed era of all time too.

there's been a lack of great shooting guards for some reason in recent years, which was a really talent rich position in the early-mid 2000s

PHILA

11-01-2015, 01:01 PM

1990 as well. MVP voting both years.

http://i.imgur.com/cT0S9SG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/M0fiB0s.jpg

dhsilv

11-01-2015, 01:14 PM

http://i.imgur.com/qJv8gE6.jpg

Easily the best top 3 year I can think of. The rest wasn't bad either.

ArbitraryWater

11-01-2015, 01:33 PM

1990, 2003, 2009...

http://i.imgur.com/qJv8gE6.jpg

Easily the best top 3 year I can think of. The rest wasn't bad either.

Yeah, stretch that to top 6... I'd probably put Dirk at number 2 in 2009, and CP3's season equalued Wade statistically.

T_L_P

11-01-2015, 01:40 PM

Not sure what you're saying, AW.

Dirk > CP3/Wade in 09?

KembaWalker

11-01-2015, 01:42 PM

1990 as well. MVP voting both years.

http://i.imgur.com/cT0S9SG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/M0fiB0s.jpg

Ben Wallace with that single first place MVP vote :bowdown: :bowdown:

4 Inches

11-01-2015, 01:45 PM

I was just frontin' you know I want you girl :banana:

ArbitraryWater

11-01-2015, 01:51 PM

Not sure what you're saying, AW.

Dirk > CP3/Wade in 09?

Why not.. 2009 may have just been his peak, best combination inside out, legs under him, clutch as ever, orchestrated a great playoff run that may have been even longer if not for the no call.

SouBeachTalents

11-01-2015, 01:54 PM

1987 is up there too

Magic: 24/6/12 52%
Bird: 28/9/8 53%
Jordan: 37/5/5 48%
Barkley: 23/15/5 59%
McHale: 26/10/3 60%
Dominique: 29/6/3 46%

DMAVS41

11-01-2015, 01:56 PM

Not sure what you're saying, AW.

Dirk > CP3/Wade in 09?

Can't go wrong with any of them...but Dirk in 09 was probably at or close to his peak as a basketball player imo.

He was a better basketball player and capable of doing more in 09 than he was in 11.

That is why some of these stats that try to account for teammates really never can...a player can only play in the situation they are in...there is no way to get out of that.

This is my problem with people when they act like Dirk took a dip after 07...from 08-10...he didn't at all as a player overall..in fact, I'd argue he was better...it was the circumstances that changed.

Yet if you looked at VORP or RAPM...that wouldn't be the case...but I don't know many people that watched Dirk night in night out over his career would argue he was significantly better in 06 than he was in 09 and 10. Because he just wasn't at all...it was the circumstances that were different.

SHAQisGOAT

11-01-2015, 02:01 PM

1988...

Prime Jordan
Last year of Bird's prime
Prime Magic
Prime Barkley
You can say an already prime Hakeem
Prime Nique
Karl Malone in his 1st prime year
Prime Drexler
Ewing in his 3rd season
Stockton entering his prime
Prime Zeke
Prime Worthy
McHale still doing his thing
Moses still active and playing well
Kareem in his penultimate season
...

http://oi68.tinypic.com/iwma6p.jpg

http://oi66.tinypic.com/dwte69.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/11jyxvs.jpg

https://mikefratello.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/mf_czar-asks-you_ultimate-f.jpg

https://40.media.tumblr.com/2cc09a3e08b7dfa8fb91257f2c00861d/tumblr_nge0pcdXv21trt6xpo1_1280.jpg

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/4799543/james-brown-crying-o.gif

T_L_P

11-01-2015, 02:02 PM

Why not.. 2009 may have just been his peak, best combination inside out, legs under him, clutch as ever, orchestrated a great playoff run that may have been even longer if not for the no call.

Nah. You know I've given Dirk his props before (called him the 05 MVP, said he probably deserved 06 too), but Paul and Wade had two of the greatest Regular Seasons ever.

From a pure statistical standpoint, but those players blew Dirk away.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2009&p1=paulch01&y2=2009&p2=wadedw01&y3=2009&p3=nowitdi01&p4=&p5=&p6=

Dirk averaged 26/8/3 with the lowest TS% of the group
Paul averaged 23/6/11
Wade averaged 30/5/8

Both players were better defensively relative to their position. Paul had 18 WS, Wade had 15, Dirk had 11.

Paul's Box +/- was an insane 11.2. Wade's was 10.7. Dirk's was a pretty underwhelming 1.2.

Really can't be assed to look up the On/Offs, but I remember Paul's being an all-time high and Dirk's being like a -5 or something.

Now, I'm not saying Dirk was anything less than spectacular...in any other season, yeah. But 09 Wade and especially 09 Paul were on some once-in-a-generation shit. :confusedshrug:

ArbitraryWater

11-01-2015, 02:04 PM

1988 looks pretty good, lotta guys having good seasons, but not really near their best. If you'd add up all the statistics it would be among the top, but otherwise nahhh.

dhsilv

11-01-2015, 02:10 PM

Can't go wrong with any of them...but Dirk in 09 was probably at or close to his peak as a basketball player imo.

He was a better basketball player and capable of doing more in 09 than he was in 11.

That is why some of these stats that try to account for teammates really never can...a player can only play in the situation they are in...there is no way to get out of that.

This is my problem with people when they act like Dirk took a dip after 07...from 08-10...he didn't at all as a player overall..in fact, I'd argue he was better...it was the circumstances that changed.

Yet if you looked at VORP or RAPM...that wouldn't be the case...but I don't know many people that watched Dirk night in night out over his career would argue he was significantly better in 06 than he was in 09 and 10. Because he just wasn't at all...it was the circumstances that were different.

Stats are far from perfect, but I'm struggling with 09 Dirk being better than he was in 2006. I'm also struggling to see a case that the situation was all that different. Just simple things like true shooting indicate eh was stronger similar with rebound rates.

SHAQisGOAT

11-01-2015, 02:15 PM

1988 looks pretty good, lotta guys having good seasons, but not really near their best. If you'd add up all the statistics it would be among the top, but otherwise nahhh.

Pretty good? :rolleyes: Major understatement...

Not really near their best?! Magic peaked in 1987, Jordan peaked in 1990/1991, Bird peaked in 1986, Chuck peaked in the early 90's...

You got THREE top5 GOAT players in their PRIME.
Another top10 player (or at the very least borderline) not that close to his very best but already in his prime too.
Two top20 players in their prime, and another still playing well.
A whole bunch of - at least - top50 players in their prime or playing very well...

Definitely better than what you got in 2003, tbh.
And I wouldn't call 2003 Kobe, PEAK Kobe.

Young X

11-01-2015, 02:18 PM

1990 is easily the best.

You had Jordan/Magic/Barkley playing the best basketball of their careers.

Then Ewing had by far his best season averaging nearly 29/11 with 4+ blks a game on 60 TS%. Malone, almost 31/11 on 63 TS%.

Robinson had one of the most dominant rookie seasons ever.

Stockton had the highest APG in NBA history.

Hakeem led the league in rebounding and blocks while being top 10 in steals.

Drexler, Wilkins, KJ all had some of their best seasons.

Bird was still an all star caliber player, Mullin and Price also had terrific years.

Isiah Thomas didn't even make the All-NBA 3rd team. Think about that. That's how stacked the league was in terms of guards.

SHAQisGOAT

11-01-2015, 02:20 PM

GIF REACTION

11-01-2015, 02:21 PM

The 1980's had around 20+ odd more possessions a game

Check the stats per 100 possessions

Young X

11-01-2015, 02:29 PM

Think 1988 was slightly better, tbh.Most of the top players in 1988 either peaked or got better in 1990.

MJ
Barkley
Malone
Ewing
Hakeem
Wilkins
Drexler
Stockton

were all better in 1990.

Magic also had a better season in 1990 than 1988.

The only big difference is prime Larry Bird.

ArbitraryWater

11-01-2015, 02:44 PM

Most of the top players in 1988 either peaked or got better in 1990.

MJ
Barkley
Malone
Ewing
Hakeem
Wilkins
Drexler
Stockton

were all better in 1990.

Magic also had a better season in 1990 than 1988.

The only big difference is prime Larry Bird.

Yup, as soon as it moves out of the 80's he thinks less of it :oldlol:

The 1980's had around 20+ odd more possessions a game

Check the stats per 100 possessions

that also

SHAQisGOAT

11-01-2015, 02:46 PM

The 1980's had around 20+ odd more possessions a game

Check the stats per 100 possessions

Pace was at 99.6 in 1988, it has been around 94 in recent times, 99.2 so far this year...

****in fool :rolleyes: :facepalm

Most of the top players in 1988 either peaked or got better in 1990.

MJ
Barkley
Malone
Ewing
Hakeem
Wilkins
Drexler
Stockton

were all better in 1990.

Magic also had a better season in 1990 than 1988.

The only big difference is prime Larry Bird.

:coleman: Wilkins was better and had a better year in 1988.

Prime Bird is a HUGE plus.

Magic peaked in 1987... 1988 was RIGHT after it, he was slightly better by then, imho, than in 1990.
Jordan also won MVP and DPOY in 1988 but not in 1990... You gonna say that MJ was better in 1988?

McHale and Worthy were better in 1988. Moses too.

Drexler was just as good in 1988.

Chuck was better in 1990, but not by much AT ALL.

Olajuwon didn't make that BIG of a leap from 1988 til 1990.

SHAQisGOAT

11-01-2015, 02:47 PM

Yup, as soon as it moves out of the 80's he thinks less of it :oldlol:

that also

:rolleyes: :facepalm

ArbitraryWater

11-01-2015, 02:49 PM

Chuck was better in 1990, but not by much AT ALL.

Olajuwon didn't make that BIG of a leap from 1988 til 1990.

Chuck and Hakeem made huge leaps. Where Hakeem really stagnated was 1991 and 1992.

GIF REACTION

11-01-2015, 03:01 PM

Pace was at 99.6 in 1988, it has been around 94 in recent times, 99.2 so far this year...

****in fool :rolleyes: :facepalm

:coleman: Wilkins was better and had a better year in 1988.

Prime Bird is a HUGE plus.

Magic peaked in 1987... 1988 was RIGHT after it, he was slightly better by then, imho, than in 1990.
Jordan also won MVP and DPOY in 1988 but not in 1990... You gonna say that MJ was better in 1988?

McHale and Worthy were better in 1988. Moses too.

Drexler was just as good in 1988.

Chuck was better in 1990, but not by much AT ALL.

Olajuwon didn't make that BIG of a leap from 1988 til 1990.

We are like 3 days into the season you ****ing jerkoff

80's had a lot more possessions a game

Deal with it

DMAVS41

11-01-2015, 03:07 PM

Stats are far from perfect, but I'm struggling with 09 Dirk being better than he was in 2006. I'm also struggling to see a case that the situation was all that different. Just simple things like true shooting indicate eh was stronger similar with rebound rates.

Yea...that is just a bit of ignorance to the teams. The team in 09 was significantly worse than the team in 06.

Young X

11-01-2015, 03:19 PM

:coleman: Wilkins was better and had a better year in 1988.

Prime Bird is a HUGE plus.

Magic peaked in 1987... 1988 was RIGHT after it, he was slightly better by then, imho, than in 1990.
Jordan also won MVP and DPOY in 1988 but not in 1990... You gonna say that MJ was better in 1988?

McHale and Worthy were better in 1988. Moses too.

Drexler was just as good in 1988.

Chuck was better in 1990, but not by much AT ALL.

Olajuwon didn't make that BIG of a leap from 1988 til 1990.
Magic got injured and had a down season in 1988, it's maybe the worst season of his prime. He was definitely better in 1990 in almost any way you look at it.

You're right, Bird is definitely a huge plus. Wilkins also did have a slightly worse season in 1990. McHale was worse as well. Besides those guys, pretty much everybody else got better.

Alot of the top stars in '88 were still young and getting better, that year is more about the legendary trio of Bird/Magic/Jordan.

They're both probably the 2 best seasons for individual stars but 1990 was crazier. The numbers these guys were putting up that year were unbelievable. Jordan averaged about 34/7/6 on 61 TS% on a 2nd seed and only finished 3rd in MVP voting. That's just crazy.

One thing I'll say is the All-NBA 1st team in '88 is probably the best ever.

GIF REACTION

11-01-2015, 03:23 PM

Lebron 2009 is the best statistical season of all time

SHAQisGOAT

11-01-2015, 03:25 PM

Chuck and Hakeem made huge leaps. Where Hakeem really stagnated was 1991 and 1992.

No, they really didn't... You don't know what you're talking about though.

Yup, as soon as it moves out of the 80's he thinks less of it :oldlol:

that also

Yea, because I'm just saying stuff for the **** of it... Not even backing my claims or anything close to it :rolleyes: :facepalm

And why are you agreeing with a known ignorant, troll? :wtf:

The 1980's had around 20+ odd more possessions a game

Check the stats per 100 possessions

You're simply a bitch-ass ignorant troll, who only posts worthless stuff...

Oh, and you REALLY want them per100 possessions stats? OK...

1988 vs 2003

Jordan - 43.6 / 6.8 / 7.4 / 3.9 / 2.0 / .603 TS%

Kobe - 37.6 / 8.6 / 7.3 / 2.8 / 1.0 / .550 TS%

Bird - 37.6 / 11.6 / 7.7 / 2.1 / 0.9 / .608 TS%

Timmy - 31.6 / 17.5 / 5.3 / 0.9 / 4.0 / .564 TS%

Chuck - 35.7 / 15.0 / 4.0 / 1.6 / 1.6 / .665 TS%

Dirk - 33.5 / 13.2 / 4.0 / 1.8 / 1.4 / .581 TS%

Malone - 33.5 / 14.6 / 2.9 / 1.7 / 0.7 / .568 TS%

Garnett - 29.6 / 17. 3 / 7.8 / 1.8 / 2.0 / .553 TS%

Nique - 40.5 / 8.5 / 3.8 / 1.7 / 0.8 / .534 TS%

T-Mac - 42.0 / 8.5 / 7.2 / 2.2 / 1.0 / .564 TS%

Hakeem - 30.1 / 16.0 / 2.7 / 2.7 / 3.6 / .555 TS%

Shaq - 37.7 / 15.2 / 4.2 / 0.8 / 3.3 / .602 TS%

Magic - 25.9 / 8.2 / 15.8 / 2.1 / 0.2 / .581 TS%

Kidd - 26.2 / 8.8 / 12.5 / 3.1 / 0.4 / .526 TS%

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

1988 "wins" the majority of them stats there... And those are "just" stats though, there's much more to it ofc, but you were the one who wanted them per100 stats.

And in 1988 you ALSO got Drexler, Zeke, Worthy, Ewing, McHale, Stockton or Moses :confusedshrug:

Go troll somewhere else, ignorant nikka :lol

GIF REACTION

11-01-2015, 03:28 PM

Use 2009-2010 moron

Use 2008-2009 moron

GIF REACTION

11-01-2015, 03:30 PM

Is 2007 the top year ever because 12 guys averaged over 35 points per 100 possessions?

SHAQisGOAT

11-01-2015, 03:32 PM

Use 2009-2010 moron

Use 2008-2009 moron

:oldlol:

U mad, son?

Move that goal-post another time now :roll:
Dumb sob.

Either way, you ain't ****in with Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Wilkins, Zeke, Malone(s), McHale, Worthy, Drexler, Stockton, Ewing...

tmacattack33

11-01-2015, 05:07 PM

That might be the one of best at the very top (top 5) that I've ever seen.

The deepest I've ever seen was around MJ's second three peat...in 1996 when you had people like Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, and Kemp being considered borderline top 10 because these players were the ones locked in as top 10: MJ, Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Pippen, Shaq, Penny, Payton, and Grant Hill

LoneyROY7

11-01-2015, 05:08 PM

This feels like it could be one of those kind of years.

Bankaii

11-01-2015, 11:05 PM

Not having AI on the 2003 list:facepalm

But 2009/10 could be a good list. Possibly even this year.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-01-2015, 11:18 PM

Nice thread, Arby - and yes, a tremendous year for top tier talent.

This season will be no slouch either (assuming everyone is healthy).

Some might not be in their peaks, but Bron/KD/AD/Harden/Westbrook/Curry/Paul/Griffin are ALL in their primes, in my opinion. They're all MVP caliber players as well.

If I had to go with ONE year? Give me 1988. Hakeem, Bird, Jordan, Magic and Chuck were all MVP candidates. 4 of the 5 are regarded as Top 10 players all-time.