Lol at people saying D Rose was finished

[Cocaine80s]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYxNYdtH7nc


Look at how much better he looks than Westbrook. East is going to be a ****ing bloodbath as usual

[dubeta]

Rose is not even a top 10 player in the East, yet he's as good as any Western player.




#bloodbathconference #prayfortheCavs

[poido123]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYxNYdtH7nc


Look at how much better he looks than Westbrook. East is going to be a ****ing bloodbath as usual



Rose has fooled us early in the season before. String a couple of good games here and there, then goes back to chucking shots and cruising through games.


I'd like to beleive it's been his eye all along, but Rose doesn't give me the impression that he gives 100% effort every game.


Seems like he is playing for a contract, while at the same time conserving his body. So he'll come out and play a game like this, just to remind everyone he can still play and some stupid franchise will throw the max at him thinking he potentially will get back to pre injury Rose.

[plowking]

Rose is so bad defensively, that he really strains his team.

He is seriously one of the worst PG defenders I've seen in such a long time. They play such an over exerting style of defense. The whole team is ready to collapse in the paint on Roses guy whenever his man has the ball. Him and Jimmy Butler, but Butler for obvious reasons since he is guarding the best guy on the other team usually.

If you can shoot the ball, and make your outside shots, it is easy to beat the Bulls. They'll collapse and double team on every drive.

[Smoke117]

29 points on 25 shots...super impressive. :facepalm

[nathanjizzle]

29 points on 25 shots...super impressive. :facepalm

he started teh game 1-8, and finished 11-17. he scored 10 straight points in clutch time, when the game was less than 5 minutes and under a 5 point differential.

[poido123]

Rose is so bad defensively, that he really strains his team.

He is seriously one of the worst PG defenders I've seen in such a long time. They play such an over exerting style of defense. The whole team is ready to collapse in the paint on Roses guy whenever his man has the ball. Him and Jimmy Butler, but Butler for obvious reasons since he is guarding the best guy on the other team usually.

If you can shoot the ball, and make your outside shots, it is easy to beat the Bulls. They'll collapse and double team on every drive.


Not through lack of effort, he does genuinely try and defend.

Rose biggest problem is he steps up too close inside the opposing player's space. Like he will hop too close, then the perimeter player will simply blow by him, leaving the frontcourt to come out and patch up the hole.

[plowking]

Not through lack of effort, he does genuinely try and defend.

Rose biggest problem is he steps up too close inside the opposing player's space. Like he will hop too close, then the perimeter player will simply blow by him, leaving the frontcourt to come out and patch up the hole.

It doesn't look like it to me from watching him over the years.

In fact, it looks like one of the main reasons the Bulls won was because Westbrook was lazy on the defensive end too. He looked as bad as Rose at containing the dribble penetration.

No effort from either. Which is weird, because Westbrook usually puts a shift in.

[Pointguard]

It doesn't look like it to me from watching him over the years.

In fact, it looks like one of the main reasons the Bulls won was because Westbrook was lazy on the defensive end too. He looked as bad as Rose at containing the dribble penetration.

No effort from either. Which is weird, because Westbrook usually puts a shift in.
Over the years??? You are complaining about his defense??? Name the all star guard that has had a good game against him since 2010. There hasn't been one elite guard that Rose hasn't put the clamps on at least once. Even the guards like Westbrook who utilize a lot of screens rarely have had great games against him. Are you just watching the non marque games??? That's odd.

Rose is so bad defensively, that he really strains his team.

He is seriously one of the worst PG defenders I've seen in such a long time. They play such an over exerting style of defense. The whole team is ready to collapse in the paint on Roses guy whenever his man has the ball. Him and Jimmy Butler, but Butler for obvious reasons since he is guarding the best guy on the other team usually.

If you can shoot the ball, and make your outside shots, it is easy to beat the Bulls. They'll collapse and double team on every drive.
Before the injuries, they were one and two in perimeter defense??? Also the team hasn't been over exerting itself on defense this year. I'm not saying he's great but in the Marquee games he's been far above average. The pick and roll has been pretty bad but you don't mention that at all.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Rose injured more than his ACL in 2012. He injured his mentality. His handlers have corrupted a once positive, hard working, humble kid. He's more self consumed and less worried about basketball than ever.

He's not finished however. Last game was proof. Games in last years playoffs was proof. He's shown to be a very good player still at times the past two seasons when he could stay on the court. All Star caliber ever.

But before the 3x consecutive knee injuries, all major ones but the last he was most definitely a GREAT player.

In 2011 he was a transcendent MVP caliber player the way Curry is now.

Ironically Curry's story is basically the antithesis to D-Rose. Steph started out often injured his first 3 seasons, morphed into reliable, and dominates in MVP fashion off other wordly pure skill.

Rose started off healthy his first 3.5 years, durable, and morphed into an unreliable / unpredictable player who at once dominated in MVP fashion off other wordly athleticism and quickness.

The knee injuries have taken their toll on Derrick's game, his approach, and even the man he is off the court.

Last game v.s. OKC was the first time in awhile he attacked the rim (which is his game) than he has in a long time. It's when he's most productive and dangerous to an opposing defense. Not when he's hoisting long jumpers or 3 ball. That's not, nor will it ever be his game. He should be peaking now. We'd know if he had a consistent jumper or not He has to realize that ...

Derrick isn't young anymore either. He's 27, he's getting up there. Not old. But basically peak. He's lost near 3 years of ball in his athletic prime. But he isn't skilled enough to rely on a jumper consistently. Attack the cup while you can.

It's depressing though knowing he's a Chicago product, many of his hometown have turned on him due to his selfishness or poor decisions. And we'll never see the youngest MVP of all time, with insane athleticism ... amazing bunnies for dunks every game (he doesn't dunk in traffic at all, or rarely even open court) who still had all the time and potential in the world.

We just need him to be very good. Along with Butler. But neither are NEO at this point. Neither of them are the one to bring us to the glory. At this point he just needs to be a very good, important piece to the puzzle.

And yes before his injury Rose was every bit as dominant as 2015 Curry, not this year's godly version, and every bit as good as current peaking Westbrook.

And sadly he was still just 22 years old in his 3rd season with plenty of room for improvement before Thibs kept him out there too long to tear his ACL.

:(

[nathanjizzle]

Rose injured more than his ACL in 2012. He injured his mentality. His handlers have corrupted a once positive, hard working, humble kid. He's more self consumed and less worried about basketball than ever.

He's not finished however. Last game was proof. Games in last years playoffs was proof. He's shown to be a very good player still at times the past two seasons when he could stay on the court. All Star caliber ever.

But before the 3x consecutive knee injuries, all major ones but the last he was most definitely a GREAT player.

In 2011 he was a transcendent MVP caliber player the way Curry is now.

Ironically Curry's story is basically the antithesis to D-Rose. Steph started out often injured his first 3 seasons, morphed into reliable, and dominates in MVP fashion off other wordly pure skill.

Rose started off healthy his first 3.5 years, durable, and morphed into an unreliable / unpredictable player who at once dominated in MVP fashion off other wordly athleticism and quickness.

The knee injuries have taken their toll on Derrick's game, his approach, and even the man he is off the court.

Last game v.s. OKC was the first time in awhile he attacked the rim (which is his game) than he has in a long time. It's when he's most productive and dangerous to an opposing defense. Not when he's hoisting long jumpers or 3 ball. That's not, nor will it ever be his game. He should be peaking now. We'd know if he had a consistent jumper or not He has to realize that ...

Derrick isn't young anymore either. He's 27, he's getting up there. Not old. But basically peak. He's lost near 3 years of ball in his athletic prime. But he isn't skilled enough to rely on a jumper consistently. Attack the cup while you can.

It's depressing though knowing he's a Chicago product, many of his hometown have turned on him due to his selfishness or poor decisions. And we'll never see the youngest MVP of all time, with insane athleticism ... amazing bunnies for dunks every game (he doesn't dunk in traffic at all, or rarely even open court) who still had all the time and potential in the world.

We just need him to be very good. Along with Butler. But neither are NEO at this point. Neither of them are the one to bring us to the glory. At this point he just needs to be a very good, important piece to the puzzle.

And yes before his injury Rose was every bit as dominant as 2015 Curry, not this year's godly version, and every bit as good as current peaking Westbrook.

And sadly he was still just 22 years old in his 3rd season with plenty of room for improvement before Thibs kept him out there too long to tear his ACL.

:(

stop being so pessimistic. hes a great player that is coming out of his injury phase, he will be great again.

[SamuraiSWISH]

stop being so pessimistic. hes a great player that is coming out of his injury phase, he will be great again.
I just said he's very good. That isnt' pessimism, dumb ass. That's realism.

You're being overly optimistic. Maybe even delusional.

Most agree with me. And the proof is in the pudding the past year or two.

It would be foolish to think after 3x years of major injuries, singificant loss of athleticism, and siginificant atrophy on his skills ... along with a regression in mentality that he would come even close to the trajectory he was on from 2011 forward.

[DMAVS41]

Rose injured more than his ACL in 2012. He injured his mentality. His handlers have corrupted a once positive, hard working, humble kid. He's more self consumed and less worried about basketball than ever.

He's not finished however. Last game was proof. Games in last years playoffs was proof. He's shown to be a very good player still at times the past two seasons when he could stay on the court. All Star caliber ever.

But before the 3x consecutive knee injuries, all major ones but the last he was most definitely a GREAT player.

In 2011 he was a transcendent MVP caliber player the way Curry is now.

Ironically Curry's story is basically the antithesis to D-Rose. Steph started out often injured his first 3 seasons, morphed into reliable, and dominates in MVP fashion off other wordly pure skill.

Rose started off healthy his first 3.5 years, durable, and morphed into an unreliable / unpredictable player who at once dominated in MVP fashion off other wordly athleticism and quickness.

The knee injuries have taken their toll on Derrick's game, his approach, and even the man he is off the court.

Last game v.s. OKC was the first time in awhile he attacked the rim (which is his game) than he has in a long time. It's when he's most productive and dangerous to an opposing defense. Not when he's hoisting long jumpers or 3 ball. That's not, nor will it ever be his game. He should be peaking now. We'd know if he had a consistent jumper or not He has to realize that ...

Derrick isn't young anymore either. He's 27, he's getting up there. Not old. But basically peak. He's lost near 3 years of ball in his athletic prime. But he isn't skilled enough to rely on a jumper consistently. Attack the cup while you can.

It's depressing though knowing he's a Chicago product, many of his hometown have turned on him due to his selfishness or poor decisions. And we'll never see the youngest MVP of all time, with insane athleticism ... amazing bunnies for dunks every game (he doesn't dunk in traffic at all, or rarely even open court) who still had all the time and potential in the world.

We just need him to be very good. Along with Butler. But neither are NEO at this point. Neither of them are the one to bring us to the glory. At this point he just needs to be a very good, important piece to the puzzle.

And yes before his injury Rose was every bit as dominant as 2015 Curry, not this year's godly version, and every bit as good as current peaking Westbrook.

And sadly he was still just 22 years old in his 3rd season with plenty of room for improvement before Thibs kept him out there too long to tear his ACL.

:(

Agree with almost all of this...

But you really think 11 Rose was on the level of current Curry?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agree with almost all of this...

But you really think 11 Rose was on the level of current Curry?
2011 Rose and 2015 Curry? Yes. 2011 Rose and this 2016 version? God no.

[ArbitraryWater]

Rose injured more than his ACL in 2012. He injured his mentality. His handlers have corrupted a once positive, hard working, humble kid. He's more self consumed and less worried about basketball than ever.

He's not finished however. Last game was proof. Games in last years playoffs was proof. He's shown to be a very good player still at times the past two seasons when he could stay on the court. All Star caliber ever.

But before the 3x consecutive knee injuries, all major ones but the last he was most definitely a GREAT player.

In 2011 he was a transcendent MVP caliber player the way Curry is now.

Ironically Curry's story is basically the antithesis to D-Rose. Steph started out often injured his first 3 seasons, morphed into reliable, and dominates in MVP fashion off other wordly pure skill.

Rose started off healthy his first 3.5 years, durable, and morphed into an unreliable / unpredictable player who at once dominated in MVP fashion off other wordly athleticism and quickness.

The knee injuries have taken their toll on Derrick's game, his approach, and even the man he is off the court.

Last game v.s. OKC was the first time in awhile he attacked the rim (which is his game) than he has in a long time. It's when he's most productive and dangerous to an opposing defense. Not when he's hoisting long jumpers or 3 ball. That's not, nor will it ever be his game. He should be peaking now. We'd know if he had a consistent jumper or not He has to realize that ...

Derrick isn't young anymore either. He's 27, he's getting up there. Not old. But basically peak. He's lost near 3 years of ball in his athletic prime. But he isn't skilled enough to rely on a jumper consistently. Attack the cup while you can.

It's depressing though knowing he's a Chicago product, many of his hometown have turned on him due to his selfishness or poor decisions. And we'll never see the youngest MVP of all time, with insane athleticism ... amazing bunnies for dunks every game (he doesn't dunk in traffic at all, or rarely even open court) who still had all the time and potential in the world.

We just need him to be very good. Along with Butler. But neither are NEO at this point. Neither of them are the one to bring us to the glory. At this point he just needs to be a very good, important piece to the puzzle.

And yes before his injury Rose was every bit as dominant as 2015 Curry, not this year's godly version, and every bit as good as current peaking Westbrook.

And sadly he was still just 22 years old in his 3rd season with plenty of room for improvement before Thibs kept him out there too long to tear his ACL.

:(

I agree with most besides him being as good as current Westbrook (who's > 2015 Curry).

Westbrook is at a point where he's been the best player in long playoff runs, he's a blind Lion, but the moment won't get to him, thats for sure. Rose experienced that spotlight in 2011, and his playoff campaign was still very mediocre.

He was visibly growing up, but not 'ready' enough yet, which is why he's not better than this years Westbrook.

Westbrook has made it there since 2014, which is why I might give him the 'top PG' label for last year, even though he wasn't able to show off in the post-season.

[DMAVS41]

2011 Rose and 2015 Curry? Yes. 2011 Rose and this 2016 version? God no.

I'm interested to know what makes you think they were even. What does Rose do to make up for the huge gap in scoring efficiency and off ball impact?

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm interested to know what makes you think they were even. What does Rose do to make up for the huge gap in scoring efficiency and off ball impact?
By putting up comprable raw numbers, 25 ppg 8 apg, on a team with significantly less talent. Especially offensively.

Rose was playing for a coach and system where it was grind it out, half court ball, with no imagination. Where as Curry plays on a team stacked with offensive talent, in a free flowing, high pace / space enviornment and put up the same numbers on better efficiency (aided by context and support talent though)

So Rose was actually shouldering a larger burden of the offense for his 2011 Bulls. And he was also the better, more capable defender.

Derrick's next best offensive player was Luol Deng. Who is an inferior player, defender, scorer, and creator compared to even say Iguodala who comes off the damn bench for the Warriors.

I mean I look at it like this ... Curry played with way more talent than 2011 Rose. Take for instance last years Finals. Curry for a couple games was getting frustrated, near locked up by just the physcality of one journeyman Delladova when the refs were swallowing whistles allowing guys to play.

Rose in 2011 had prime LeBron, and Wade guarding him off the drive. With an entire defense shading on him because they didnt respect the likes of garbage like: Ronnie Brewer's jumper. Keith Bogan's anything. Boozer's post game being stuffed by much longer Bosh. Noah's anything. And Luol Deng's inability to create off the dribble.

Not Klay Thompson scoring 50 something in 3 quarters caliber scorer. Or athletic freak Harrison Barnes. Or Andre Iguodala coming off the bench. Who on his lone straight up is better than Deng.

The context and difficulty is totally different. And it was more difficult for 2011 Derrick Rose. Clearly.

I would've like to have seen 2015 Curry on the 2011 Bulls v.s. the stacked 2011 Heat, with LeBron guarding him. And just sitting on his face up game contesting his jumpers. Without a care or worry in the world of anyone else on the floor.

2016 Curry however? Playing with an edge, and chip on his shoulder? If he keeps it up ... it's no contest. So far this is one of the greatest players I've ever seen play. It's only been 2 weeks though.

[DMAVS41]

By putting up comprable raw numbers, 25 ppg 8 apg, on a team with significantly less talent. Especially offensively.

Rose was playing for a coach and system where it was grind it out, half court ball, with no imagination. Where as Curry plays on a team stacked with offensive talent, in a free flowing, high pace / space enviornment and put up the same numbers on better efficiency (aided by context and support talent though)

So Rose was actually shouldering a larger burden of the offense for his 2011 Bulls. And he was also the better, more capable defender.

Derrick's next best offensive player was Luol Deng. Who is an inferior player, defender, scorer, and creator compared to even say Iguodala who comes off the damn bench for the Warriors.

I mean I look at it like this ... Curry played with way more talent than 2011 Rose. Take for instance last years Finals. Curry for a couple games was getting frustrated, near locked up by just the physcality of one journeyman Delladova when the refs were swallowing whistles allowing guys to play.

Rose in 2011 had prime LeBron, and Wade guarding him off the drive. With an entire defense shading on him because they didnt respect the likes of garbage like: Ronnie Brewer's jumper. Keith Bogan's anything. Boozer's post game being stuffed by much longer Bosh. Noah's anything. And Luol Deng's inability to create off the dribble.

Not Klay Thompson scoring 50 something in 3 quarters caliber scorer. Or athletic freak Harrison Barnes. Or Andre Iguodala coming off the bench. Who on his lone straight up is better than Deng.

The context and difficulty is totally different. And it was more difficult for 2011 Derrick Rose. Clearly.

I would've like to have seen 2015 Curry on the 2011 Bulls v.s. the stacked 2011 Heat, with LeBron guarding him. And just sitting on his face up game contesting his jumpers. Without a care or worry in the world of anyone else on the floor.

2016 Curry however? Playing with an edge, and chip on his shoulder? If he keeps it up ... it's no contest. So far this is one of the greatest players I've ever seen play. It's only been 2 weeks though.

I totally agree that the Warriors were a better team with better coaching. I don't think that is in dispute and I completely agree.

However, I don't see what Rose does to make up for a huge gap in scoring efficiency and off ball impact.

Putting up raw stats on that Bulls team would be nothing of note. Post 12 Curry could average 25/8/4 on 20 shots and 37 minutes in his sleep. So I don't see how the raw stats argument makes much sense.

Regardless of team, Curry's shooting and off ball impact...I also think Curry is a better passer...really is a large difference than Rose. Rose is a better finisher and is willing to attack and get to the line more...and that matters, but I don't think there is much Rose does better than Curry in a large enough way to make up for that huge gap between them I keep referencing.

Just look at what Curry was able to do in 13...when he was definitely not the player he was in 15. He was a 23/7/4 59% TS player...playing on a team coached by Mark Jackson with a decent squad, but hardly anything special on either end yet. I think that is a pretty good indication for some of your questions.

I mean...there is a reason why Curry kind of blows Rose out of the water on pretty much all advanced metrics.

Being able to shoot from 30, pass with both hands, get doubled off the ball on screens...that impact is just staggering. And as good as Rose was in 11...his lack of consistent shooting keeps him from being on that Curry level imo.

[Pointguard]

I'm interested to know what makes you think they were even. What does Rose do to make up for the huge gap in scoring efficiency and off ball impact?
I'm loving this new version of Curry and I haven't seen a player of that level in a long time. But put Curry on a team that doesn't have good spacing and isn't setting a lot of picks and I can't say for sure he can carry a team. Though he is looking like he can hit anything these days, I can't really say. A player that is aggressive and breaks down defenses alone is worth more than a player that is good off of the ball and is efficient. Especially a player that frequently gets tripled teamed on set plays without picks. Looking at Westbrook play now and last year, he gets a lot more picks than Rose ever got. Rose could break down defenses straight up, without picks. Westbrook isn't at that level right now. Because Rose is obviously stronger than Westbrook, WB couldn't turn the corner on him. WB is more explosive but he couldn't get that step on a slowed down Rose yesterday.

Westbrook gets a lot of dunks because his defender is usually compromised by picks. Rose in 2011 was fully capable of frequently getting to the rim without picks. OKC sets much better picks than Bulls right now. These things (picks, how the team sets them, how they execute... are on the coach). Rick Carlise is great on spacing like Steve Kerr is but most coaches aren't great at it. Its a tremendous advantage. Pau Gasol's whole game is dependent on spacing. That's why sitting Noah down almost has to be done. But Chicago has to get their pick setting down as well.

[poido123]

Rose has fooled us early in the season before. String a couple of good games here and there, then goes back to chucking shots and cruising through games.


I'd like to beleive it's been his eye all along, but Rose doesn't give me the impression that he gives 100% effort every game.


Seems like he is playing for a contract, while at the same time conserving his body. So he'll come out and play a game like this, just to remind everyone he can still play and some stupid franchise will throw the max at him thinking he potentially will get back to pre injury Rose.



:confusedshrug:



Anddd....back to underwhelming 3/13 and 4 too many 3s



:sleeping

[plowking]

Over the years??? You are complaining about his defense??? Name the all star guard that has had a good game against him since 2010. There hasn't been one elite guard that Rose hasn't put the clamps on at least once. Even the guards like Westbrook who utilize a lot of screens rarely have had great games against him. Are you just watching the non marque games??? That's odd.

Before the injuries, they were one and two in perimeter defense??? Also the team hasn't been over exerting itself on defense this year. I'm not saying he's great but in the Marquee games he's been far above average. The pick and roll has been pretty bad but you don't mention that at all.

Yes.

He has sucked. Noah and the rest of the bigs work hard as hell to cover for him. Both now, and all his time in Chicago. He is terrible, as in, worse than Steve Nash terrible.

He hasn't put the clamps on anyone. The team helps out and makes him look good. This guy doesn't put the effort in, and is hardly ever in defensive stance. Don't believe me, go watch the last game against Westbrook on the highlights.

[keep-itreal]

Derrick Rose's career ended the moment he tore his acl. I don't pay much attention to his game anymore after that

[poido123]

Yes.

He has sucked. Noah and the rest of the bigs work hard as hell to cover for him. Both now, and all his time in Chicago. He is terrible, as in, worse than Steve Nash terrible.

He hasn't put the clamps on anyone. The team helps out and makes him look good. This guy doesn't put the effort in, and is hardly ever in defensive stance. Don't believe me, go watch the last game against Westbrook on the highlights.


I believe you. And yeah he wasn't showing at least the normal effort he shows. I think there's a lot going on behind the scenes, Rose's games are so up and down it's crazy.


I think the best thing to do right now is to move on from him and trade for whatever we can get. He's weighing heavy on the Bulls team like a dark cloud and he's just too much of a distraction from game tro game.


Gasol also needs to go IMO. He needs to be a bench player at this stage of his career, this league is just simply too fast and too strong.

[DMAVS41]

I'm loving this new version of Curry and I haven't seen a player of that level in a long time. But put Curry on a team that doesn't have good spacing and isn't setting a lot of picks and I can't say for sure he can carry a team. Though he is looking like he can hit anything these days, I can't really say. A player that is aggressive and breaks down defenses alone is worth more than a player that is good off of the ball and is efficient. Especially a player that frequently gets tripled teamed on set plays without picks. Looking at Westbrook play now and last year, he gets a lot more picks than Rose ever got. Rose could break down defenses straight up, without picks. Westbrook isn't at that level right now. Because Rose is obviously stronger than Westbrook, WB couldn't turn the corner on him. WB is more explosive but he couldn't get that step on a slowed down Rose yesterday.

Westbrook gets a lot of dunks because his defender is usually compromised by picks. Rose in 2011 was fully capable of frequently getting to the rim without picks. OKC sets much better picks than Bulls right now. These things (picks, how the team sets them, how they execute... are on the coach). Rick Carlise is great on spacing like Steve Kerr is but most coaches aren't great at it. Its a tremendous advantage. Pau Gasol's whole game is dependent on spacing. That's why sitting Noah down almost has to be done. But Chicago has to get their pick setting down as well.

But what about what Curry did in 2013? I mean...it was a team coached by Mark Jackson...a team that was the 11th best offense and 14th ranked defense.

A team with Barnes and Green as rookies...a team with Klay only having 1 year of experience. A team with Curry coming off his 12 season in which he missed like 60 games.

So, I mean, in 13 Curry was not the player he was in 15. In 13 he was really really good, but he had not reached that 15 level.

Now, I totally agree that Curry is in a near perfect situation and a better situation than Rose was in 11.

However, if back in 13 a lesser Curry can get a team with rookie Barnes/Green and young Klay...with David Lee playing a ton of minutes with Mark Jackson coaching...to 45 wins in the West.

Curry's skills are what they are regardless of team. His circumstances, like it does for every player, will impact his performance, but his skill set is just so beyond a guy like Rose on offense. It opens everything up with his shooting and when he doesn't have the ball...he's actually a huge threat...he's a guy that often takes 2 defenders with him off the ball when they screen for him on the baseline.

So not only is he great on the ball as a scorer and a passer, but he's great off the ball. I don't see anything in Rose that makes up for that huge gap.

And don't see any evidence that Curry couldn't produce and carry a team that wasn't as ideal. He basically did that in 13 and he wasn't the player he's become back then.

[TrueBlue89]

Isn't it about time we put Westbrook's defense under the microscope?

[swagga]

it only took 7games for gasol's 3rd option to put up some inefficient stats ... i guess that makes rose an all star in the east :applause:

[DMAVS41]

On to the OP...

Can we please stop the reactions after 1 game or a handful of games?

PG...you literally asked me to admit I was wrong about Rose after his game against the Thunder. Now, I don't want you to think I'm "hating" so I'll say it again.

Rose is not done. He has shown flashes of brilliance multiple times a game so far this year and I had been saying this before the Thunder game...and you can check that. But it was just one game...and Rose was magnificent. Absolutely great and carried them in crunch time...it was a vintage performance.

But...asking me to admit I was wrong? For starters, what was I wrong about? I asked you in that other thread and you didn't respond with substance. I had Rose as the MVP in 11 and as a top 8 player. Since then...I've said he's been really bad...which he has.

But to your point about this year...sorry, but Rose has been terrible so far this year. Just awful...

He's shooting 36% from the field on low volume scoring. He currently is producing negative win shares, negative bpm, and negative vorp. His PER is 9.1 and his TS% is 41%.

The Bulls are -6.1 points per 100 with him on the court and +7.8 points with him off the court.

So...I mean...you see one game and want everyone to ignore the reality of the last 4 plus years?

Do you really not see how biased and narrow minded you are on Rose? Everything you say literally flies in the face of reality right now...and you are asking people to admit they were wrong about him? Really? After honestly the worst start imaginable to this season for him?

This isn't to say he can't get back to playing well more consistently...those flashes are there.

But please...please...don't act the way you did after the Thunder game and expect people to ignore what is actually going on this season so far.

[Magic 32]

Look at how much better he looks than Westbrook. East is going to be a ****ing bloodbath as usual

That's like because...because Lebron...good....so like the east....good but not true.....and then Kobe fan mad....and then I win, because like......

[Cali Syndicate]

In the past 4 seasons, rose has played 100 games out of 328. Dude works hard to rehab, then comes back and bam another injury. That would mess with anyone's head. Because of this, rose holds back when he plays...imo that's mainly what it is. There's no confidence in his body. Every now and then, you see him explode like pre-injury rose which makes me think it's still there. Maybe not all of it but still enough of it to allow him to play the way he knows how. He won't get there unless he proves his mind over matter,but if he does I can see rose playing star caliber ball again. Won't happen though unless he can actually get through a full season or two without major injuries.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Rose injured more than his ACL in 2012. He injured his mentality. His handlers have corrupted a once positive, hard working, humble kid. He's more self consumed and less worried about basketball than ever.

He's not finished however. Last game was proof. Games in last years playoffs was proof. He's shown to be a very good player still at times the past two seasons when he could stay on the court. All Star caliber ever.

But before the 3x consecutive knee injuries, all major ones but the last he was most definitely a GREAT player.

In 2011 he was a transcendent MVP caliber player the way Curry is now.

Ironically Curry's story is basically the antithesis to D-Rose. Steph started out often injured his first 3 seasons, morphed into reliable, and dominates in MVP fashion off other wordly pure skill.

Rose started off healthy his first 3.5 years, durable, and morphed into an unreliable / unpredictable player who at once dominated in MVP fashion off other wordly athleticism and quickness.

The knee injuries have taken their toll on Derrick's game, his approach, and even the man he is off the court.

Last game v.s. OKC was the first time in awhile he attacked the rim (which is his game) than he has in a long time. It's when he's most productive and dangerous to an opposing defense. Not when he's hoisting long jumpers or 3 ball. That's not, nor will it ever be his game. He should be peaking now. We'd know if he had a consistent jumper or not He has to realize that ...

Derrick isn't young anymore either. He's 27, he's getting up there. Not old. But basically peak. He's lost near 3 years of ball in his athletic prime. But he isn't skilled enough to rely on a jumper consistently. Attack the cup while you can.

It's depressing though knowing he's a Chicago product, many of his hometown have turned on him due to his selfishness or poor decisions. And we'll never see the youngest MVP of all time, with insane athleticism ... amazing bunnies for dunks every game (he doesn't dunk in traffic at all, or rarely even open court) who still had all the time and potential in the world.

We just need him to be very good. Along with Butler. But neither are NEO at this point. Neither of them are the one to bring us to the glory. At this point he just needs to be a very good, important piece to the puzzle.

And yes before his injury Rose was every bit as dominant as 2015 Curry, not this year's godly version, and every bit as good as current peaking Westbrook.

And sadly he was still just 22 years old in his 3rd season with plenty of room for improvement before Thibs kept him out there too long to tear his ACL.

:(

Good analysis. I know a couple of Chitown people and they have told me over the past 2-3 years, a lot of local fans have become bitter towards Rose and feel he's selfish. Rose had all the potential in the world in 2011 to become a better player. A lot of people including myself said his jumpshot still needed a lot of work despite being MVP. I thought he would eventually become a 30 ppg scorer to be honest.

[KelticForce1349]

By putting up comprable raw numbers, 25 ppg 8 apg, on a team with significantly less talent. Especially offensively.

Rose was playing for a coach and system where it was grind it out, half court ball, with no imagination. Where as Curry plays on a team stacked with offensive talent, in a free flowing, high pace / space enviornment and put up the same numbers on better efficiency (aided by context and support talent though)

So Rose was actually shouldering a larger burden of the offense for his 2011 Bulls. And he was also the better, more capable defender.

Derrick's next best offensive player was Luol Deng. Who is an inferior player, defender, scorer, and creator compared to even say Iguodala who comes off the damn bench for the Warriors.

I mean I look at it like this ... Curry played with way more talent than 2011 Rose. Take for instance last years Finals. Curry for a couple games was getting frustrated, near locked up by just the physcality of one journeyman Delladova when the refs were swallowing whistles allowing guys to play.

Rose in 2011 had prime LeBron, and Wade guarding him off the drive. With an entire defense shading on him because they didnt respect the likes of garbage like: Ronnie Brewer's jumper. Keith Bogan's anything. Boozer's post game being stuffed by much longer Bosh. Noah's anything. And Luol Deng's inability to create off the dribble.

Not Klay Thompson scoring 50 something in 3 quarters caliber scorer. Or athletic freak Harrison Barnes. Or Andre Iguodala coming off the bench. Who on his lone straight up is better than Deng.

The context and difficulty is totally different. And it was more difficult for 2011 Derrick Rose. Clearly.

I would've like to have seen 2015 Curry on the 2011 Bulls v.s. the stacked 2011 Heat, with LeBron guarding him. And just sitting on his face up game contesting his jumpers. Without a care or worry in the world of anyone else on the floor.

2016 Curry however? Playing with an edge, and chip on his shoulder? If he keeps it up ... it's no contest. So far this is one of the greatest players I've ever seen play. It's only been 2 weeks though.


Awesome post. I remember that version of Rose and the Bulls very well. Those teams were frustrating to watch, but Rose was the source of so much hope for the near future.

The only thing I feel like you forgot to mention is how often the refs let Rose get pummeled on the way to the hoop without calling a foul in his favor. He really had to earn his points in a way that seemed a but unusual for someone considered to be a star player or the very best player on big market team like the Bulls.

The amount of physical play or contact allowed against Rose reminded me of how the refs would often overlook the hacking against prime Shaq. It was like the refs were saying, if you are going to attack the basket that often we just can't call each foul. Derrick Rose certainly never got the James Harden treatment.

I will always wonder if some of his future injuries resulted from those first years of taking so much contact in the paint.

[Pointguard]

But what about what Curry did in 2013? I mean...it was a team coached by Mark Jackson...a team that was the 11th best offense and 14th ranked defense.

A team with Barnes and Green as rookies...a team with Klay only having 1 year of experience. A team with Curry coming off his 12 season in which he missed like 60 games.

So, I mean, in 13 Curry was not the player he was in 15. In 13 he was really really good, but he had not reached that 15 level.

Now, I totally agree that Curry is in a near perfect situation and a better situation than Rose was in 11.

However, if back in 13 a lesser Curry can get a team with rookie Barnes/Green and young Klay...with David Lee playing a ton of minutes with Mark Jackson coaching...to 45 wins in the West.
Rose dominated the elite in the West in 2011, and complete domination after December 14 and he did it with an injured brand new team.

David Lee was the most consistent front court player in the league at that time. I believe that was the year he lead the league in double doubles? He was within 4 ppg of Curry as well. And Klay the third highest scorer on the team was scoring like Boozer. Jarrett Jack was a much more consistent player and more productive than any Bulls player in the playoffs.



Curry's skills are what they are regardless of team. His circumstances, like it does for every player, will impact his performance, but his skill set is just so beyond a guy like Rose on offense. It opens everything up with his shooting and when he doesn't have the ball...he's actually a huge threat...he's a guy that often takes 2 defenders with him off the ball when they screen for him on the baseline.
Put Curry on a bad spacing team that isn't the best in shooting and defense, and can't set good picks, its different just as it is for any player. It's common sense. I remember when Reggie Miller lost the two Davis's one year. It totally ruined his game. The shooting skill went caput because the picks went bad. The down low presence wasn't what it was. Reggie Miller had the team utilize all four players to help get him open.

Now Rose not needing picks to break down a team is a skill that few players have had since the new millennium. Most coaches can handle that. The Bulls team could not break a trap. I teach how to break a trap to Jr High schoolers. The team wouldn't set picks for him when Lebron was guarding him. To say a guy like Curry would be the same on that team isn't correct. You don't see all the picks they set for Curry. You think that GS can't break a trap.

[Pointguard]

Yes.

He has sucked. Noah and the rest of the bigs work hard as hell to cover for him. Both now, and all his time in Chicago. He is terrible, as in, worse than Steve Nash terrible.

He hasn't put the clamps on anyone. The team helps out and makes him look good. This guy doesn't put the effort in, and is hardly ever in defensive stance. Don't believe me, go watch the last game against Westbrook on the highlights.


Huh??? in 2011 every elite PG had a game or two shooting 30% against him. Ironically last year the best shooting PG ever was hot and Rose clamped down on him in the 4th and overtime - it was the best defense I ever seen on Curry (traditionally Curry has scored better on Rose than anybody else tho). Rose guarded Wade better in the playoff better than I ever seen any player guard a healthy Wade, including the legend Allen. And you think he did that without a defensive stance??? A guy who bullies shooting guards.

You are really sounding crazy. Name me a star PG that Rose didn't stop before the injuries (outside of Curry). Noah and them scrambling like crazy to cover for him??? You don't watch the games do you?

[ArbitraryWater]

And Rose went back to being utter garbage.....

[SamuraiSWISH]

Put Curry on a bad spacing team that isn't the best in shooting and defense, and can't set good picks, its different just as it is for any player. It's common sense. I remember when Reggie Miller lost the two Davis's one year. It totally ruined his game. The shooting skill went caput because the picks went bad. The down low presence wasn't what it was. Reggie Miller had the team utilize all four players to help get him open.

Now Rose not needing picks to break down a team is a skill that few players have had since the new millennium. Most coaches can handle that. The Bulls team could not break a trap. I teach how to break a trap to Jr High schoolers. The team wouldn't set picks for him when Lebron was guarding him. To say a guy like Curry would be the same on that team isn't correct. You don't see all the picks they set for Curry. You think that GS can't break a trap.
:applause:

[Indian guy]

The game against OKC felt like fool's gold to me. He was making a lot of difficult jumpers that he normally misses. A clearly unsustainable performance given how poor of a shooter he is. And just like that, he was back to struggling again in his next game. And has looked like that for a while too, if we factor in last season as well. Which is why I don't put much stock in his facial injury slowing him down. He has looked mediocre for too long now. Ability-wise, he's just not the player he was pre his assortment of injuries after 2012. He's nowhere close to being the same athlete. It's so obvious if you just watch him play. He ranked 22nd amongst point guards in PER last year. Doesn't even feature in the top 50 so far this season. I don't see how he can even return to being a fringe All Star level player again, much less the superstar he was in 2011 and 2012.

[Jameerthefear]

curry is regularly being claimed better than lebron and rose fans STILL think rose/curry is even a legitimate comparison.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The game against OKC felt like fool's gold to me. He was making a lot of difficult jumpers that he normally misses. A clearly unsustainable performance given how poor of a shooter he is. And just like that, he was back to struggling again in his next game. And has looked like that for a while too, if we factor in last season as well. Which is why I don't put much stock in his facial injury slowing him down. He has looked mediocre for too long now. Ability-wise, he's just not the player he was pre his assortment of injuries after 2012. He's nowhere close to being the same athlete. It's so obvious if you just watch him play. He ranked 22nd amongst point guards in PER last year. Doesn't even feature in the top 50 so far this season. I don't see how he can even return to being a fringe All Star level player again, much less the superstar he was in 2011 and 2012.
That's what I said. And that's the REALITY ... but I'm being a pessimist apparently. He's had more than enough grace period to round back into form. He just can't consistently perform at a good level, let alone great. Greatness is in consistency. And he visibly looks so inferior ability wise to the guy he was from 2010 - 2012.

:rolleyes:

[LoneyROY7]

2011 Rose has become a mythical figure on ISH, like Orlando T-Mac. :oldlol:

How about we focus on current Rose, eh?

[SamuraiSWISH]

2011 Rose has become a mythical figure on ISH, like Orlando T-Mac.
Yea but those guys were great. Just like Detroit Hill, and Orlando Penny. It's not MYTH. It happened. McGrady was still great the first couple seasons in Houston though too. Just a little slower due to back injuries.

[BasedTom]

2011 Rose has become a mythical figure on ISH, like Orlando T-Mac. :oldlol:

How about we focus on current Rose, eh?
This is offensive to TMac

Dairy Crows is a bum, a veritable hack

[LoneyROY7]

This is offensive to TMac

Dairy Crows is a bum, a veritable hack

Of course T-Mac was a better player. I speaking in reference to the over-embellishment of a season due to lost "potential" via an injury.

[nathanjizzle]

if d rose doesnt shape up by mid season, hes finished and should be traded immediately to the lake show.

[DMAVS41]

Rose dominated the elite in the West in 2011, and complete domination after December 14 and he did it with an injured brand new team.

David Lee was the most consistent front court player in the league at that time. I believe that was the year he lead the league in double doubles? He was within 4 ppg of Curry as well. And Klay the third highest scorer on the team was scoring like Boozer. Jarrett Jack was a much more consistent player and more productive than any Bulls player in the playoffs.


Put Curry on a bad spacing team that isn't the best in shooting and defense, and can't set good picks, its different just as it is for any player. It's common sense. I remember when Reggie Miller lost the two Davis's one year. It totally ruined his game. The shooting skill went caput because the picks went bad. The down low presence wasn't what it was. Reggie Miller had the team utilize all four players to help get him open.

Now Rose not needing picks to break down a team is a skill that few players have had since the new millennium. Most coaches can handle that. The Bulls team could not break a trap. I teach how to break a trap to Jr High schoolers. The team wouldn't set picks for him when Lebron was guarding him. To say a guy like Curry would be the same on that team isn't correct. You don't see all the picks they set for Curry. You think that GS can't break a trap.


I don't get this argument. I'm not saying 13 Curry was better than 11 Rose.

But, the 13 Warriors were absolutely not anywhere near as good as the 11 Bulls...to argue otherwise would be a huge mistake.

I also never said Curry would be the same on every team. I said he'd have the same skills that translate into huge assets for teams in a way Rose simply doesn't have.

If you gave 15 Curry the best defense/rebounding team in the league with offensive players similar to the 11 Bulls...he'd get that team to at least the 10th best offense.

But again...that isn't what makes a player better or worse than the other. How players do in certain circumstances is how they'd to in those.

The simple fact is that Curry's skillset on offense is simply much greater than Rose's at any point in his career...I don't see how one could refute that after last season.

Curry is a better shooter, passer, better in the pick and roll, better off the ball...etc.

And there is no difference in defensive impact. Both can play a role on an elite defensive team while playing big minutes.

[nathanjizzle]

I don't get this argument. I'm not saying 13 Curry was better than 11 Rose.

But, the 13 Warriors were absolutely not anywhere near as good as the 11 Bulls...to argue otherwise would be a huge mistake.

I also never said Curry would be the same on every team. I said he'd have the same skills that translate into huge assets for teams in a way Rose simply doesn't have.

If you gave 15 Curry the best defense/rebounding team in the league with offensive players similar to the 11 Bulls...he'd get that team to at least the 10th best offense.

But again...that isn't what makes a player better or worse than the other. How players do in certain circumstances is how they'd to in those.

The simple fact is that Curry's skillset on offense is simply much greater than Rose's at any point in his career...I don't see how one could refute that after last season.

Curry is a better shooter, passer, better in the pick and roll, better off the ball...etc.

And there is no difference in defensive impact. Both can play a role on an elite defensive team while playing big minutes.

let me know when 2014- 2015 curry averages 27 points and 7 assists against the top 8 teams in the league. and has a winning record plus winning 9 of the last 9 of those games, aswell as averages 27-9 against west teams. i can do the math if you want? and i bet he will short d rose. your opinion and stat based opinion is retarded. theres not getting much better than 2011 rose in terms of impact. in terms of "stats and efficiency" sure. this years curry has surpased it in the 6 games., last years curry, the one that rarely played in the 4th? lol. rose was carrying the team in the 4th quarter. remember 30-10 record in clutch games, thats rose. not curry. now go fuc yourself fat loser.

[DMAVS41]

let me know when 2014- 2015 curry averages 27 points and 7 assists against the top 8 teams in the league. and has a winning record plus winning 9 of the last 9 of those games, aswell as averages 27-9 against west teams. i can do the math if you want? and i bet he will short d rose. your opinion and stat based opinion is retarded. theres not getting much better than 2011 rose in terms of impact. in terms of "stats and efficiency" sure. this years curry has surpased it in the 6 games., last years curry, the one that rarely played in the 4th? lol. rose was carrying the team in the 4th quarter. remember 30-10 record in clutch games, thats rose. not curry. now go fuc yourself fat loser.


You realize he averaged 28/6/5 61% TS en route to the title...right?

Also, mods? How is there not a mod to issue a ban for the bold?

[Pointguard]

I don't get this argument. I'm not saying 13 Curry was better than 11 Rose.

But, the 13 Warriors were absolutely not anywhere near as good as the 11 Bulls...to argue otherwise would be a huge mistake.
You brought them up. I just don't think it was an adequate comparison. But you are right here.


I also never said Curry would be the same on every team. I said he'd have the same skills that translate into huge assets for teams in a way Rose simply doesn't have.
Most great smaller players are penetrators, not shooters. That's a too big of debate for this thread.


The simple fact is that Curry's skillset on offense is simply much greater than Rose's at any point in his career...I don't see how one could refute that after last season.

Rose shot as good from the field as Curry ever did in only his second season. When he lost his shooters and good spacing his game suffered. So once again its context. Its obvious that Westbrook and Curry game would suffer if the spacing, and team resources to help free them up had stopped. Every player is subject to that. Rose in his MVP campaign was amazing in that there were far fewer picks set for him. That his burden offensively was much greater than their's right now. So its not as easy as saying well they look better now. Every offensively player would look better in a Kerr system and look worse in a Thibes system.

I love Curry and Westbrook's game and I can't say who is the game's best PG right now. If they both played in a Thibes system Westbrook would be the better player. If they played each other under a coach like Thibes I think Westbrook would do a lot better than Curry in a series primarily because the spacing and little use of picks would favor the more aggressive player and not the shooter. In Thibe's first year, Rose's leadership and creativity would have an advantage over both of them. In Kerr's system nobody is going to be better than Curry.

[DMAVS41]

You brought them up. I just don't think it was an adequate comparison. But you are right here.

Most great smaller players are penetrators, not shooters. That's a too big of debate for this thread.

Rose shot as good from the field as Curry ever did in only his second season. When he lost his shooters and good spacing his game suffered. So once again its context. Its obvious that Westbrook and Curry game would suffer if the spacing, and team resources to help free them up had stopped. Every player is subject to that. Rose in his MVP campaign was amazing in that there were far fewer picks set for him. That his burden offensively was much greater than their's right now. So its not as easy as saying well they look better now. Every offensively player would look better in a Kerr system and look worse in a Thibes system.

I love Curry and Westbrook's game and I can't say who is the game's best PG right now. If they both played in a Thibes system Westbrook would be the better player. If they played each other under a coach like Thibes I think Westbrook would do a lot better than Curry in a series primarily because the spacing and little use of picks would favor the more aggressive player and not the shooter. In Thibe's first year, Rose's leadership and creativity would have an advantage over both of them. In Kerr's system nobody is going to be better than Curry.

Every player is going to suffer based on certain circumstances that aren't ideal...I have repeatedly agreed with this statement and we are on the same page.

But this is the reason I brought up the 13 Warriors. That team was not the team you think it was in terms of spacing and just the offense in general.

And if a clear worse Curry coming off missing basically an entire year in 13 can still go for 23/7/4 59% TS...I don't think your argument holds a lot of weight....because that 13 Warriors teams simply did not have a lot of the things you are saying Curry is so reliant on.

I mean...how much better was Curry in 15 than 13 just as a polished player? His individual improvement was dramatic over those years...even though he was already very good in 13.

So, again, of course every player is subject to their circumstances, but circumstances aren't going to make Curry's skills worse. And if he, as a clear cut lesser player with an average team around him, is able to produce like he did in 13...

I don't see the argument you are making as having much support.


I'd also like an answer as to why you wanted me to "admit I was wrong about Rose" after the Thunder game?

Wrong about what for starters? And could you then explain why that one game trumps about 4 years of play now...or, why that game matters more than the disaster game he just played.

The Bulls have been abysmal with Rose on the court this year and very good without him.

So I'm really confused as to why you somehow think the start to this year should cause me to change my tune about Rose.

[Pointguard]

Every player is going to suffer based on certain circumstances that aren't ideal...I have repeatedly agreed with this statement and we are on the same page. When have you argued this? I'm just curious. What situation?


But this is the reason I brought up the 13 Warriors. That team was not the team you think it was in terms of spacing and just the offense in general.
They couldn't break a trap? That's not true because I personally know a couple of Jackson's coaches before he went to college. Jarret Jack had his best year ever along with David Lee and Carl Landry both making big jumps in their FG% and they are the scorers on that team. Thibes doesn't do that for big time scorers. Are you just talking off of the top of your head. Offensively they run a lot of the same sets.???


And if a clear worse Curry coming off missing basically an entire year in 13 can still go for 23/7/4 59% TS...I don't think your argument holds a lot of weight....because that 13 Warriors teams simply did not have a lot of the things you are saying Curry is so reliant on.
Jackson did set picks for him and the spacing was vastly superior to Chicago's. What else did I say?



I'd also like an answer as to why you wanted me to "admit I was wrong about Rose" after the Thunder game? I thought you had just said he was the worse starter in the league. But that could have been Kendrick Perkins who was underneath you in another thread.

Even if you didn't say that, you keep acting like he has no claim to fame.

[Jameerthefear]

ARE WE REALLY STILL HAVING THE ****ING CURRY vs. ROSE ARGUMENT???
REALLY??? REALLY??? ITS NOT CLOSE. ITS NOT A COMPARISON ANYMORE. JUST STOP

[BasedTom]

ARE WE REALLY STILL HAVING THE ****ING CURRY vs. ROSE ARGUMENT???
REALLY??? REALLY??? ITS NOT CLOSE. ITS NOT A COMPARISON ANYMORE. JUST STOP
"we" is just nathanjizzle

who, judging by his delusion and autism, might actually be the real Dairy Crows shitposting on ISH

[dubnation]

ARE WE REALLY STILL HAVING THE ****ING CURRY vs. ROSE ARGUMENT???
REALLY??? REALLY??? ITS NOT CLOSE. ITS NOT A COMPARISON ANYMORE. JUST STOP

This. It's embarrassing tbh.

[ArbitraryWater]

ARE WE REALLY STILL HAVING THE ****ING CURRY vs. ROSE ARGUMENT???
REALLY??? REALLY??? ITS NOT CLOSE. ITS NOT A COMPARISON ANYMORE. JUST STOP

Its nathan and that pointguard ****er

[Pointguard]

ARE WE REALLY STILL HAVING THE ****ING CURRY vs. ROSE ARGUMENT???
REALLY??? REALLY??? ITS NOT CLOSE. ITS NOT A COMPARISON ANYMORE. JUST STOP
I don't see that anywhere in this thread.

[Pointguard]

Its nathan and that pointguard ****er
I've been clear that Curry and Westbrook are battling for the one spot... idiot.

[DMAVS41]

When have you argued this? I'm just curious. What situation?

They couldn't break a trap? That's not true because I personally know a couple of Jackson's coaches before he went to college. Jarret Jack had his best year ever along with David Lee and Carl Landry both making big jumps in their FG% and they are the scorers on that team. Thibes doesn't do that for big time scorers. Are you just talking off of the top of your head. Offensively they run a lot of the same sets.???

Jackson did set picks for him and the spacing was vastly superior to Chicago's. What else did I say?

I thought you had just said he was the worse starter in the league. But that could have been Kendrick Perkins who was underneath you in another thread.

Even if you didn't say that, you keep acting like he has no claim to fame.


When have I argued that circumstances matter? Literally since day 1 here.

I'm not going to get into semantics about NBA teams being able to set screens and break traps. They all can...some do it better than others. One thing I think you miss on Rose is that he's not a great pick and roll player...or at least not like Curry because he can't shoot well enough and his passing isn't on that level imo.

I never said he was the worst starter in the league. I do think he and Joe Johnson and Kobe and a few others are in the running for least valuable players over the last 2 to 3 years given their poor play, huge salaries, and inability to stay on the court (at least for Rose / Kobe)...

Claim to fame? I don't know how to define this statement. Imo, of course he does...he was an elite NBA player and won MVP back in 11.