Lebron's time of possession in 2015 Finals was 50% higher than RS leader

[3ball]

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4

Lebron's time of possession (the amount of time he possesses the ball each game) was a whopping 12.0 minutes per game in the Finals - that's 50% higher than the regular season leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes.

Overall, for the 2014-2015 regular season and playoffs, Lebron's time of possession was higher than any non-pg in the league - he and Harden were the only non-pg's with equal or higher time of possession than point guards.

Since today's spaced-out, screen-roll setup allows more ball-domination and higher time of possession to accumulate stats, wings from prior eras like MJ and Dr. J would have higher stats today.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

It's almost like he slowed down the tempo of the game to not allow gsw to play to their strengths

[FKAri]

Why the fucc would time of possession matter when it comes to "accumulation of stats". The number of possessions is what matters.

[GIF REACTION]

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.

He was responsible for an average of 57.7 points per game on points he either scored or assisted on; which in turn, accounted for 62% of the Cavaliers’s points in the NBA Finals.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, by pulling the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, and taking into account a team’s home-court advantage, it was able to project each team’s chances of winning prior to the Finals. What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list. If you consider that James still managed to win two titles with those odds stacked against him, the four losses don’t seem so terrible. And if we look at the 2015 Finals by itself, we’ll realize that James did was pretty much unprecedented.

“If we look at a multi-year Statistical Plus/Minus talent projection for every NBA Finals team, this Cavs team ranks as the ninth-least talented NBA finalist since 1985. (By contrast, Cleveland’s opponents, the mighty Golden State Warriors, rank as the 14th-most talented.) Remove James, and things get even more dire; his supporting cast ranks as the third-worst team carried by its best player to the NBA Finals since 1985.”

If you were to take James’s talent rating (6.6) and replace it with that of the league-average player (0.0), the Cavaliers’s talent rating would dwindle to -0.1. So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship. Of course, what we forgot to mention was that FiveThirtyEight also determined that these Golden State Warriors finished the year with the second-highest peak Elo Rating (1822) in NBA history and third-highest Composite Elo Rating of all time (1796), making them one of the best basketball teams ever. And what James did against them remarkable.

When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG


http://giant.gfycat.com/FlimsySpitefulButterfly.gif

[Eye Test]

^^^^ lebrons reaction when Kevin Love signed with the cavs

[FKAri]

I think that post killed 3ball. If he survived, he's frantically looking through his Word documents for something with enough paragraphs that can buy him time to regroup.

What about Curry, bro? Why'd you stop praising him this season? He's playing his best ball yet.

[3ball]

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.


All great players have this effect.. When a great player goes to the bench, his team's performance will suffer - this is nothing new.. It's not an argument for Lebron anymore than it is for Nash, Kevin Johnson, MJ, Magic or Stockton.





According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.


He needed 50% more time of possession achieve his stats than the RS leader in time of possession.

AND he only shot 39% despite only being double-teamed 3 times per game (18 times in the entire series)..

How come Lebron shot so poorly despite getting secluded 1-on-1 over and over??... High volume - Lebron's efficiency is poor at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume.. Otoh, as Haberstroh said, Jordan WON his Finals, because he shot well at high volume - he shot 51% on 33 fga.





What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list.


According to the 538 list, MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves that MJ won with less.. MJ was capable of winning with less, as the 538 lists prove.

And when you compare Jordan's per 100 stats to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

[dhsilv]

Lebron is an all time great nba player. Anyone posting anything to counter this, should never be taken seriously.

And I hate watching lebron and hope he retires to I never have to watch his horrible boring awful basketball! As you can tell I'm doing my best to say nice things about how much I hate watching him play!

[3ball]

Why the fucc would time of possession matter when it comes to "accumulation of stats". The number of possessions is what matters.


Why would time of possession matter?... Lebron needed 50% more time of possession achieve his stats than the RS leader in time of possession..

If you don't think that's remarkable, then you're ridiculously biased... Read that again - 50%... more... time of posssession... than the RS leader.

And of course, he only shot 39% despite only being double-teamed 3 times per game (18 times in the entire series)..

[dhsilv]

All great players have this effect.. When a great player goes to the bench, his team's performance will suffer - this is nothing new.. It's not an argument for Lebron anymore than it is for Nash, Kevin Johnson, MJ, Magic or Stockton.



He needed 50% more time of possession achieve his stats than the RS leader in time of possession.

AND he only shot 39% despite only being double-teamed 3 times per game (18 times in the entire series)..

How come Lebron shot so poorly despite getting secluded 1-on-1 over and over??... High volume - Lebron's efficiency is poor at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume.. Otoh, as Haberstroh said, Jordan WON his Finals, because he shot well at high volume - he shot 51% on 33 fga.



According to the 538 list, MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves that MJ won with less.. MJ was capable of winning with less, as the 538 lists prove.



So you agree Lebron is an all time great and one of the best ever to play?

What was the point of this topic then? We all agree. Lebron was amazing in the finals last year.

FYI removed all your stuff with weird colors and font and stuff. I assumed that was stuff you didn't mean to post since it looked bad.

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron increased his teams offensive rating by an NBA finals record +46.4

Legendary impact

[dhsilv]

Why would time of possession matter?... Lebron needed 50% more time of possession achieve his stats than the RS leader in time of possession..

If you don't think that's remarkable, then you're ridiculously biased... Read that again - 50%... more... time of posssession... than the RS leader.

And of course, he only shot 39% despite only being double-teamed 3 times per game (18 times in the entire series)..

You know I can't tell. Is more time good or bad? I'm struggling with what you're going for. Do you think Triston Thompson should have the ball? WIth Irving out there's no doubt Lebron is the top scorer and point guard for the cavs. So....what is the point? How can I be baised if I don't even know if this is favorable or unfavorable?

Seriously post your thought process on these weird posts. Mind you once you do, I'm likely to laugh at you and not keep posting because you never seem to have a point that isn't comical.

[3ball]

Lebron is an all time great nba player. Anyone posting anything to counter this, should never be taken seriously.

And I hate watching lebron and hope he retires to I never have to watch his horrible boring awful basketball! As you can tell I'm doing my best to say nice things about how much I hate watching him play!
Lebron is an all-time great, but so is Barkley and Malone and Pete Maravich.

For once, accept the statistical facts - Lebron takes more time to score than any non-pg in today's gamee... and for him to achieve his Finals stats, he needed a whopping FIFTY PERCENT MORE time of possession than the regular season leader..

Of course, he only shot 39% despite being double-teamed only 3 times per game (18 times in the entire series)..

Btw, when you compare Jordan's per 100 stats to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

[dhsilv]

Lebron increased his teams offensive rating by an NBA finals record +46.4

Legendary impact

Had his shots fallen, is it possible he could have by himself beaten a top 15 team all time? How crazy is that?

Now honestly I think the warrior were jsut screwing around and were shocked the cavs even had a chance.

[FKAri]

Respond to my earlier post about Curry.





All great players have this effect.. When a great player goes to the bench, his team's performance will suffer - this is nothing new.. It's not an argument for Lebron anymore than it is for Nash, Kevin Johnson, MJ, Magic or Stockton.


Show me the numbers for MJ and Dr J





He needed 50% more time of possession achieve his stats than the RS leader in time of possession.

AND he only shot 39% despite only being double-teamed 3 times per game (18 times in the entire series)..

How come Lebron shot so poorly despite getting secluded 1-on-1 over and over??... High volume - Lebron's efficiency is poor at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume.



Because literally no one else on that team was scoring. His usage was so high throughout the playoffs that he had no more legs for his jumper. Also, Lebron's not an all-time great iso scorer. It might be his greatest weakness. Yet he still put up 30 something across the whole series.

Let's use YOUR OWN suggested sources to destroy you:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebron-james-may-go-down-as-the-greatest-loser-ever/




According to the 538 list, MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves that MJ won with less.. MJ was capable of winning with less, as the 538 lists prove.

EDIT - my bad I thought you were referring to 2015.


https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png


That's by 538 btw.
Right here:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/



Bye bye 3ball. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron increased his teams offensive rating by an NBA finals record +46.4

Legendary impact
This is so rare because you never get a team with such a weak supporting cast make the NBA finals

Let alone sweep a 60 win team

It takes a GOAT tier player to do these things

[dhsilv]

Lebron is an all-time great, but so is Barkley and Malone and Pete Maravich.

For once, accept the statistical facts - Lebron takes more time to score than any non-pg in today's gamee... and for him to achieve his Finals stats, he needed a whopping FIFTY PERCENT MORE time of possession than the regular season leader..

And of course, he only shot 39% despite only being double-teamed 3 times per game (18 times in the entire series)..



Maravichi is kinda pusing it on all time great. But again what's your point?

Lebron IS the point guard for the cavs or at least was in the finals. He was also the offensive scorer. He's a pass first player....which we all know.

[3ball]

Lebron increased his teams offensive rating by an NBA finals record +46.4


horseshit... We don't have stats for past greats..

The reality is that Lebron's teammates shot better than he did in the Finals - they shot 43.3% eFG to his 43.2%.

Lebron's Finals stats were not great - his FG% and defense ruined it...

MJ's impact was greater when he averaged 41/9/6/51 in 1993 Finals with GOAT defense.......... or his 33/7/11/56 in 1991 Finals, with GOAT defense.

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron increased his teams offensive rating by an NBA finals record +46.4

Legendary impact

[3ball]

That's by 538 btw.
Right here:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

Bye bye 3ball. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Get some glasses... Seriously - you're literally misreading the stats.

According to the 538 list, MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves that MJ won with less..

There is no way to refute this - if you put your faith in 538, the list says MJ won with less.
.

[dhsilv]

horseshit... We don't have stats for past greats..

The reality is that Lebron's teammates shot better than he did in the Finals - they shot 43.3% eFG to his 43.2%.

Lebron's Finals stats were not great - his FG% and defense ruined it...

MJ's impact was greater when he averaged 41/9/6/51 in 1993 Finals with GOAT defense.......... or his 33/7/11/56 in 1991 Finals, with GOAT defense.

So now you're just saying stuff without any clue what you're talking about? If you don't have any evidence shut up. God, stop insulting MJ. MJ was the GOAT! He shouldn't have slime like you insulting his legacy!

[stalkerforlife]

3ball schooling these youngsters as usual.

http://i.imgur.com/ByQSoLU.gif

[dhsilv]

How dumb are you?
According to the 538 list, MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves that MJ won with less..

There is no way to refute this - if you put your faith in 538, the list says MJ won with less - you dumb ****

Bro MJ is better than lebron. I don't care how many times you try and claim otherwise. STOP POSTING THIS CRAP.

MJ> Lebron

Stop trying to sell people on lebron being better than MJ. Christ, you just won't stop!

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron increased his teams offensive rating by an NBA finals record +46.4

Legendary impact
This is by far the largest offensive rating increase by a superstar simply because supporting casts this weak never make the NBA finals... You need a very special type of player to be able to do this

[3ball]

Lebron increased his teams offensive rating by an NBA finals record +46.4


This isn't true - we don't have data for MJ's Finals where he played much better than Lebron on both ends... nor do we have stats for Magic, or Stockton, or anyone else.

Here's what we do know: Lebron played horrible defense and shot 39% despite not getting double-teamed, while having 50% higher time of possession than anyone had all year.
.

[stalkerforlife]

This is by far the largest offensive rating increase by a superstar simply because supporting casts this weak never make the NBA finals... You need a very special type of player to be able to do this

Eastern conference where their biggest obstacle was the phucking Hawks.

STFU.

[GIF REACTION]

This isn't true - we don't have data for MJ's Finals where he played much better than Lebron on both ends, or Magic, or Stockton, or anyone else.

Here's what we do know: Lebron shot 39% despite not getting double-teamed or having 50% higher time of possession than anyone had all year.
Incorrect

We do have the data

Jordan doesn't come close because he had a significantly stronger supporting cast, which minimizes his impact on the team offensive rating

[dhsilv]

This isn't true - we don't have data for MJ's Finals where he played much better than Lebron on both ends, or Magic, or Stockton, or anyone else.

Here's what we do know: Lebron shot 39% despite not getting double-teamed or having 50% higher time of possession than anyone had all year.

So like I keep saying. MJ likely was more valuable but just because i can't prove it doesn't mean MJ wasn't the goat. seriously....

[Monta Ellis MVP]

As many of you may already know I am a big time Pacers fan but I am a fan of the Cavaliers as well. LeBron did have an uphill battle vs the Warriors and MVP Steph Curry and put up guady numbers, however it was at the sacrifice of ball sharing and an equal opportunity offense. LeBron put up a lot of points but his efficiency was way off, this plus the sheer amount of time he was dominating the ball lead to a non winning style of basketball and ended up hurting us overal. If LeBron mixed in more off ball game with less ball domination he could of gotten our 3 point shooters much more involved. This would of helped spread the floor for LeBron to start working inside again. Instead LeBrons ball dominating, playground style basketball allowed Golden State to gameplan accordingly and take the series.

[FKAri]

Get some glasses... Seriously - you're literally misreading the stats.

According to the 538 list, MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves that MJ won with less..

There is no way to refute this - if you put your faith in 538, the list says MJ won with less.
.

You're right I misread what you wrote and edited the post. I thought you were referring to 2015.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in this thread. You think Dr J would have taken the Cavs further than Lebron?

[3ball]

As many of you may already know I am a big time Pacers fan but I am a fan of the Cavaliers as well. LeBron did have an uphill battle vs the Warriors and MVP Steph Curry and put up guady numbers, however it was at the sacrifice of ball sharing and an equal opportunity offense. LeBron put up a lot of points but his efficiency was way off, this plus the sheer amount of time he was dominating the ball lead to a non winning style of basketball and ended up hurting us overal. If LeBron mixed in more off ball game with less ball domination he could of gotten our 3 point shooters much more involved. This would of helped spread the floor for LeBron to start working inside again. Instead LeBrons ball dominating, playground style basketball allowed Golden State to gameplan accordingly and take the series.
Spot on

[FKAri]

Only if Dr. J was capable of good efficiency in the same spots Lebron had and at 33 FGA shot volume.

It's remarkable that Lebron fans and the media think it's impossible to shoot better than 39%...

especially while holding the ball 50% longer than anyone has all year and playing secluded 1-on-1 with no double-teaming... It's ridiculous.

So Cavs win with any iso scorer better than Bron?

Cavs win with Paul Pierce? Carmelo? Bernard King? Adrian Dantley? Connie Hawkins?

[3ball]

I don't understand what you're trying to say in this thread


I'm saying Lebron's 2015 Finals wasn't all-time great because:


1) he held the ball 50% longer than anyone else did all year (this is amazing - 50 frieking percent more than the RS leader - lebron had LITERALLY all day to make his move)

2) he wasn't double-teamed

3) he employed a stat-friendly, playground style, so his stats lack integrity compared to those accumulated using an equitable, team approach (the only approach that has EVER won championships)

4) despite 1-3 above (50% longer time of possession, no double-teaming, stat-friendly style) - he only shot 39%

5) his defense was poor (again)

[knicksman]

i agree. Thats why 2/6 is the best that he could do despite doing what others has never done-colluding.

[FKAri]

I'm saying Lebron's 2015 Finals wasn't all-time great because:


1) he held the ball 50% longer than anyone else did all year (this is amazing - 50 frieking percent more than the RS leader - lebron had LITERALLY all day to make his move)

2) he wasn't double-teamed

3) he employed a stat-friendly, playground style, so his stats lack integrity compared to those accumulated using an equitable, team approach (the only approach that has EVER won championships)

4) despite 1-3 above (50% longer time of possession, no double-teaming, stat-friendly style) - he only shot 39%

5) his defense was poor (again)

So all those guys I listed earlier would've won in Lebron's place, right?

Also, how come if I post something that goes against what you say, it's "media" being wrong.

If the stats are neutral or in your favor, they are real?

I already linked this and you didn't respond:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebron-james-may-go-down-as-the-greatest-loser-ever/

You just go in circles man. There is no point in debating.

[3ball]

So Cavs win with any iso scorer better than Bron?

Cavs win with Paul Pierce? Carmelo? Bernard King? Adrian Dantley? Connie Hawkins?
No, only the very best can shoot well at high volume while still contributing in other areas (like defense).

MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Bird, Kareem, and more - these guys would've won with that Cavs team, assuming they shot better than Lebron's 39%.

Do you think it's impossible or something to shoot better than 39%?... Do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45 or 50%?.. The way you guys defend Lebron's 2015 Finals, it's like you think these things.

[3ball]

I already linked this and you didn't respond:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebron-james-may-go-down-as-the-greatest-loser-ever/


Lebron shot 39%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

His totals equaled MJ's, except he shot 12 percentage points worse!!!!!!!!!.. He also employed a playground, stat-padding style, while MJ achieved his stats within winning, team concept.

Why ignore this?

Again, do you think it's impossible to shoot better than 39%?... Do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45 or 50%?.. The way you guys defend Lebron's 2015 Finals, it's like you think these things.
.

[knicksman]

great leaders trust their teammates. And thats what lebron and lebron fans dont get. Theres a reason why russell, duncan, magic are the greatest winners coz they trust their teammates to do their roles. Meanwhile bran wouldnt, not because he doesnt trust them but because playing off ball means sacrificing stats, which is actually worse than not trusting them. The guy is selfish. Just like oscar robertson was considered cancer. These 3, bran, wilt, oscar, are the greatest losers of all time which also happens to be the greatest statpadder. Coincidence? Nah..

[FKAri]

No, only the very best can shoot well at high volume while still contributing in other areas (like defense).

MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Bird, Kareem, and more - these guys would've won with that Cavs team, assuming they shot better than Lebron's 39%.

Do you think it's impossible or something to shoot better than 39%?... Do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45 or 50%?.. The way you guys defend Lebron's 2015 Finals, it's like you think these things.

No center wins in place of Bron. The team wouldn't be able to bring the ball up the court. Guard play would be a disaster when Dellavadova is your best player.

Bird, MJ, maybe Kobe give them similar chances as they had with Bron. Sure they'd get doubled more and fouled more as well. But the outcome of the game wouldn't change much.


Lebron shot 39%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

His totals equaled MJ's, except he shot 12 percentage points worse!!!!!!!!!.. He also employed a playground, stat-padding style, while MJ achieved his stats within winning, team concept.

Why ignore this?

Again, do you think it's impossible to shoot better than 39%?... Do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45 or 50%?.. The way you guys defend Lebron's 2015 Finals, it's like you think these things.
.

Team concept goes out the window when you lose 2 out of your top 3 players on an already top heavy team. Why are you cherry picking evidence?

[3ball]

Bird, MJ, maybe Kobe give them similar chances as they had with Bron. Sure they'd get doubled more and fouled more as well. But the outcome of the game wouldn't change much.


Do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45%+, or are you saying MJ couldn't have shot 45%?
.

[3ball]

Team concept goes out the window when you lose 2 out of your top 3 players on an already top heavy team. Why are you cherry picking evidence?


Horseshit - a team should still play like a team when they lose their top guys - they shouldn't just clearout everytime for the best player like it's AAU.. This is what the Cavs did and this is why I can't respect Lebron's stats (although thee 39% already prevented any respect level)

Btw, I'm cherry-picking Lebron's 39%?

Again, do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45%+, or are you saying MJ couldn't have shot 45%?

[3ball]

But the outcome of the game wouldn't change much.


Are you that stupid that you think 39% is the best anyone could've done?

GTFO... That's why I said you were a dumbass earlier.

[FKAri]

Horseshit - a team should still play like a team when they lose their top guys - they shouldn't just clearout everytime for the best player like it's AAU.. This is what the Cavs did and this is why I can't respect Lebron's stats (although thee 39% already prevented any respect level)

Btw, I'm cherry-picking Lebron's 39%?

Again, do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45%+, or are you saying MJ couldn't have shot 45%?


If MJ starts shooting 45 he'll draw more defensive attention. This will bring his % down. When it goes down enough he will be forced to pass to the open man or pass it out. Who is he passing to? Who else will score? If MJ averages 40ppg (big IF vs the Warriors great perimeter D) over the series that means the rest of the team still has to make up 60 points.

How till this happen?

Three things can happen. A: MJ's gonna playmake. Ok now you're asking him to do even more. You're asking him to score AND playmake. And not just natural, kick it out to the open guy for an easy 2. Because in today's zone defense you can get doubled without there being a pass that will lead directly to a basket. You're basically asking him to run sets. You're asking him to play PG.

B: He kicks it out for a reset. Now you're asking someone else to playmake. Who's doing that on that roster?

C:MJ swings the ball. If you have a team of great role players they will be able to make the correct pass immediately to the weakside and get it to a finisher or shooter. Who's doing that on the Cavs? And who are the great finishers?

[3ball]

If MJ starts shooting 45%, he'll draw more defensive attention.....

(But) Who is he passing to? Who else will score? And who are the great finishers?


You're being contradictory - on one hand, you concede that Jordan would get double-teamed and attract more defensive attention than Lebron... But then you say it makes no difference because the Cavs don't have anyone that can finish... You can't have it both ways - if MJ gets doubled, teammates will get better looks than what they got with Lebron.

Btw, it's interesting - in 2014 Finals, the Spurs didn't double Lebron because he only shot 17 times per game... In the 2015 Finals, Lebron doubled this volume to 33 fga, but he still didn't get doubled because he shot so poorly at the higher volume.

[3ball]

fkari is fos

[3ball]

If MJ starts shooting 45 he'll draw more defensive attention. This will bring his % down. When it goes down enough he will be forced to pass to the open man or pass it out. But Who is he passing to? Who else will score on the Cavs?


If Lebron shot 45%, the Cavs would've won easily - Jordan would be no different.

But at 39%, it benefited the Warriors every time Lebron shot and made no sense to double-team him.

So obviously, if MJ shoots 45% and starts getting doubled - that's better than what Lebron did.. That's what Lebron was TRYING TO DO - he was trying to shoot 45%, since that would've yielded better results obviously..

Unfortunately, I have to explain these basics to you, because your bias has made you irrational... "B-b-b-but if MJ shoots 45%, then he'll get doubled and have to pass"... wtf???... Again, Lebron was TRYING to shoot 45%, but he couldn't - so if MJ shot actually DID shoot 45%, that would be better than what Lebron did.. The Cavs win if MJ shoots 45%, just like they would've won if Lebron had shot 45%.

[Sakkreth]

If Lebron shot 45%, the Cavs would've won easily - Jordan would be no different.

But at 39%, it benefited the Warriors every time Lebron shot and made no sense to double-team him.




Hey imbecile, did you even check Cavs production without LeBron on the floor in those finals ? :facepalm

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Are You Telling Me That Lebron Handled The Ball With His Go To Offensive Player Being Mathew Friggin Delledova

Shocking

[3ball]

Hey imbecile, did you even check Cavs production without LeBron on the floor in those finals ?


What does your post ^^^^ have to do with the reality that the Cavs would've won easily of Lebron shot better than his abysmal 39%??

Or that Lebron needed 50% more time of possession than anyone got all year to achieve his stats?

[3ball]

Are You Telling Me That Lebron Handled The Ball With His Go To Offensive Player Being Mathew Friggin Delledova


No, I'm telling you the Cavs would've won easily if Lebron shot better than 39% - that's obvious.

And I'm also telling you that Lebron needed 50% more time of possession than anyone got all year to achieve his stats - this is utterly amazing and completely invalidates his stats (although running stat-padding clearouts every possession was never a respectable way to accumulate stats anyway).

[sdot_thadon]

Whole thread premise is incredibly stupid. You're arguing what? That time of possession is more critical to stats than actual number of possessions? Cause its definitely possible to score multiple times in a possession if you just hold the ball longer....:rolleyes: So if for whatever reason lebron has the same series but only holds the ball 45% of the time it's somehow more impressive? Clown shoes goin clown shoes.

[Hey Yo]

Horseshit - a team should still play like a team when they lose their top guys - they shouldn't just clearout everytime for the best player like it's AAU.. This is what the Cavs did and this is why I can't respect Lebron's stats (although thee 39% already prevented any respect level)

Btw, I'm cherry-picking Lebron's 39%?

Again, do you think the Cavs still lose if Lebron shoots 45%+, or are you saying MJ couldn't have shot 45%?
Do the Cavs still lose if J.R Smith shoots 37% instead of 31%? (3P% 29)
Dellavedova shoots 34% instead of 28%? (3P% 28)
Shumpert 31% instead of 25%? (3P% 32)


What was MJ's shooting % in his 5th consecutive Finals appearance?

[Hey Yo]

No, I'm telling you the Cavs would've won easily if Lebron shot better than 39% - that's obvious.

And I'm also telling you that Lebron needed 50% more time of possession than anyone got all year to achieve his stats - this is utterly amazing and completely invalidates his stats (although running stat-padding clearouts every possession was never a respectable way to accumulate stats anyway).
Which players last season faced GS and their number 1 defense (6 straight games) w/o their 2nd and 3rd best players?

[3ball]

You're arguing what? That time of possession is more critical to stats than actual number of possessions? Cause its definitely possible to score multiple times in a possession if you just hold the ball longer....


It's easier to score when you have more time to decide what to do and can wait for the right spot.

In Lebron's case, he had 50% more time of possession than anyone had all year - his 12.0 minutes per game was 50% higher than the regular season league-leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes..

Such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..

Keep it real bro - 50% higher time of possession is insane and very likely the record, BY A MILE
.

[3ball]

Which players last season faced GS and their number 1 defense (6 straight games) w/o their 2nd and 3rd best players?
Do you realize that Lebron had 50% more time of possession than the regular season leader?... Do you know how RIDICULOUS that is?... Tbh, it should've been a media story, but the media isn't that smart.

MJ took the same number of shots on MANY playoff runs, yet he never held the ball forever or played with a point-guard-level time of possession like Lebron.

MJ was far more skilled, so he didn't need so much time with the ball to score.

But for Lebron - such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..

[sd3035]

3ball is rustlin some jimmies in this thread :roll:

[Hey Yo]

Do you realize that Lebron had 50% more time of possession than the regular season leader?... Do you know how RIDICULOUS that is?... Tbh, it should've been a media story, but the media isn't that smart.

MJ took the same number of shots on MANY playoff runs, yet he never held the ball forever or played with a point-guard-level time of possession like Lebron.

MJ was far more skilled, so he didn't need so much time with the ball to score.

But for Lebron - such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..
LOL @ comparing someones RS numbers to another players Finals numbers cause we all know those RS situations are always the same and comparable.

:hammerhead: DUMB

[Hey Yo]

It's easier to score when you have more time to decide what to do and can wait for the right spot.

In Lebron's case, he had 50% more time of possession than anyone had all year - his 12.0 minutes per game was 50% higher than the regular season league-leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes..

Such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..

Keep it real bro - 50% higher time of possession is insane and very likely the record, BY A MILE
.
Then why is the fastbreak so cherished? Are you insinuating that the 80's Lakers teams etc... would have been better off slowing down the pace so they could have more time to decide how to get the best shot?

[Hey Yo]

Do the Cavs still lose if J.R Smith shoots 37% instead of 31%? (3P% 29)
Dellavedova shoots 34% instead of 28%? (3P% 28)
Shumpert 31% instead of 25%? (3P% 32)


What was MJ's shooting % in his 5th consecutive Finals appearance?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/db/6a/fc/db6afccac70dc671b5ecf06b36b5d3f3.jpg

[3ball]

LOL @ comparing someones RS numbers to another players Finals numbers cause we all know those RS situations are always the same and comparable.

:hammerhead: DUMB
Lebron's 12.0 minutes of possession time was 20% higher than the playoff leader (John Wall's 10.1 minutes) and 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes).. Again, that's ****ing amazing.

You're aware that teams don't win championships that way right?... Teams don't win rings with 1 player having 12 minutes of possession time, or 50% more time than the league leader.. So Lebron was in complete stat-padding mode with the entire game set up for him to accumulate stats, yet he still only shot 39%.

Such a massive time of possession invalidates his stats... Of course, the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron's 12.0 minutes of possession time was 20% higher than the playoff leader (John Wall's 10.1 minutes) and 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes).. Again, that's ****ing amazing.

You're aware that teams don't win championships that way right?... Teams don't win rings with 1 player having 12 minutes of possession time, or 50% more time than the league leader.. So Lebron was in complete stat-padding mode with the entire game set up for him to accumulate stats, yet he still only shot 39%.

Such a massive time of possession invalidates his stats... Of course, the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats.
You're aware that Kyrie missed the last 5 games and Love missed the entire series, right?

You're aware that LeBron's possession time wouldn't have been that high if those 2 play the entire series, right?

[3ball]

What was MJ's shooting % in his 5th consecutive Finals appearance?


Who cares... Lebron shot even worse in his 1st Finals - he shot 35.6% in 2007, so fatigue has nothing to do with it.

Btw, do you realize that in the 2015 Finals, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times, while MJ was doubled that much in a single HALF of 1 game in the 1993 Finals??... Yet MJ shot 51% to Lebron's 39%... And unlike Lebron, MJ never got the AAU-style, secluded clearouts over and over - he had to achieve his stats within a strict, professional offense.

But don't be surprised - MJ is the greatest high volume shooter of all time.. When you compare his PER 100 STATS to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

[Kvnzhangyay]

3Balls getting wrecked again :lol

Although I have to admit it's admirable how he is so FOS that he doesn't realize he's getting destroyed on every post he makes :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Who cares????

You're ripping LeBron for his shooting % in his 5th consecutive Finals appearance, yet the fat head on your bedroom ceiling wasn't able to make it 5 consecutive. Hell, he quit the league twice w/o even trying to make it 4 straight.

[Hey Yo]

Do the Cavs still lose if J.R Smith shoots 37% instead of 31%? (3P% 29)
Dellavedova shoots 34% instead of 28%? (3P% 28)
Shumpert 31% instead of 25%? (3P% 32)
STILL WAITING

[swagga]

Who cares... Lebron shot even worse in his 1st Finals - he shot 35.6% in 2007, so fatigue has nothing to do with it.

Btw, do you realize that in the 2015 Finals, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times, while MJ was doubled that much in a single HALF of 1 game in the 1993 Finals??... Yet MJ shot 51% to Lebron's 39%... And unlike Lebron, MJ never got the AAU-style, secluded clearouts over and over - he had to achieve his stats within a strict, professional offense.

But don't be surprised - MJ is the greatest high volume shooter of all time.. When you compare his PER 100 STATS to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

lol you suck donkey dick.:roll:

[FKAri]

I went to bed last night cuz he wasn't responding. Didn't know this thread kept going :oldlol:

If you refute him on one point he will simply pull something else out of the bag. A traveling salesman with a cases of snake oil. Eventually you just gotta shut the door.


It's easier to score when you have more time to decide what to do and can wait for the right spot.

In Lebron's case, he had 50% more time of possession than anyone had all year - his 12.0 minutes per game was 50% higher than the regular season league-leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes..

Such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..

Keep it real bro - 50% higher time of possession is insane and very likely the record, BY A MILE
.

No it's not. Point blank. This post is garbage.

[3ball]

This post is garbage


That's why I win all my threads - you guys don't refute shit - you just say "that's garbage" in big caps, which means you meltdown and I win.

Anytime you guys try to actually refute my points, you get shut down:

see a few posts up where I murdered Hey Yo - this fool tried to say Lebron's 5 straight Finals made him shoot bad, when he shot worse in his first Finals than any other Finals!!!!... Wreeeeecked
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

That's why I win all my threads - you guys don't refute shit - you just say "that's garbage" in big caps, which means you meltdown and I win.

Anytime you guys try to actually refute my points, you get shut down:

see a few posts up where I murdered Hey Yo - this fool tried to say Lebron's 5 straight Finals made him shoot bad, when he shot worse in his first Finals than any other Finals!!!!... Wreeeeecked
.

:lol Any time you have to bring up you "wrecking somebody", in reality it's you got wrecked, but you are too FOS to realize it.

[3ball]

Do the Cavs still lose if

J.R Smith shoots 37% instead of 31%? (3P% 29)
Dellavedova shoots 34% instead of 28%? (3P% 28)
Shumpert 31% instead of 25%? (3P% 32)


Not sure, but they definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.

And you're forgetting that Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals!!!!!.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG

Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact... Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).

[3ball]

The Cavs definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.

And you're forgetting that Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals!!!!!.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG

Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact... Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).



This 2nd destruction of Hey Yo (shown above) is basically the thread cliffs.. /thread


http://bennorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/mic-drop-kanye-west.gif

[Hey Yo]

Do the Cavs still lose if J.R Smith shoots 37% instead of 31%? (3P% 29)
Dellavedova shoots 34% instead of 28%? (3P% 28)
Shumpert 31% instead of 25%? (3P% 32)

STILL WAITING

[FKAri]

you guys don't refute shit.

Because what you posted was an opinion. And that opinion is the basis of your argument...ya..get wrecked.


Not sure, but they definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.

And you're forgetting that Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals!!!!!.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG

Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact... Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).

So Lebron managed to actually perfectly balance when to score himself and when to pass? That's incredible. I actually didn't feel that when I was watching the series but thanks for enlightening me. How did the team shoot with him off the floor?

[3ball]

STILL WAITING
The Cavs definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.

Unfortunately, Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG

Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact... Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).

[warriorfan]

It is easier to score when you take more time from the shot clock...

[Hey Yo]

Not sure, but they definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.

And you're forgetting that Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals!!!!!.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG

Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact... Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).
Of course you're "not sure" :oldlol:

J.R, Delly and Shump shot 50-173. But if they would've shot better, not sure if the Cavs would have won.

:rolleyes:

[warriorfan]

I went to bed last night cuz he wasn't responding. Didn't know this thread kept going :oldlol:

If you refute him on one point he will simply pull something else out of the bag. A traveling salesman with a cases of snake oil.Eventually you just gotta shut the door.



No it's not. Point blank. This post is garbage.

Of course it's easier to score earlier in the shotclock in transition scenarios. However If you are not in transition and in the half court offense, the longer you hold onto the ball the better chance you have to get a quality offensive look.

[3ball]

Of course you're "not sure" :oldlol:

J.R, Delly and Shump shot 50-173. But if they would've shot better, not sure if the Cavs would have won.

:rolleyes:
The Cavs definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.

The statistical reality is that Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG

Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact... Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).

[riseagainst]

3ball putting in work.

:applause:

[3ball]

Of course it's easier to score earlier in the shotclock in transition scenarios. However If you are not in transition and in the half court offense, the longer you hold onto the ball the better chance you have to get a quality offensive look.
Of course and thanks for pointing that out..

I should have told FKari that my post assumes HALF COURT SETS, which are literally 80% of the NBA offense..

The NBA is less than 20% transition/early offense.. This is statistical fact.. So I assumed FKari knew I was talking about half court sets.

[warriorfan]

Of course and thanks for pointing that out..

I should have told FKari that my post assumes HALF COURT SETS, which are literally 80% of the NBA offense..

The NBA is less than 20% transition/early offense.. This is statistical fact.. So I assumed FKari knew I was talking about half court sets.

You shouldn't of even have to spell it out for FKari. This should be known by true basketballs fan as a given. When not it makes me suspect of trolling...

[fpliii]

http://www.vantagesports.com/story/VEkOBCgAACcARDvz/everything-you-need-to-know-about-shot-selection

I'll just leave this here. Second graph speaks for itself.

[warriorfan]

http://www.vantagesports.com/story/VEkOBCgAACcARDvz/everything-you-need-to-know-about-shot-selection

I'll just leave this here. Second graph speaks for itself.

Sources?

[fpliii]

Sources?
Uh, what? Vantage is one of the player tracking/analytics/data partners of the NBA. That graphic is just a visualization of their data.

https://team.vantagesports.com
https://mobile.twitter.com/vantagesports

[FKAri]

3ball sidestepping as usual.

You tell him he's flat out wrong on point A. He replies saying he's not wrong about point B. :oldlol:

I'm going to level with you because you're probably thinking I'm a Lebron stan.

I agree with you that "Lebron ball" isn't a great way to win. A superstar holding the ball at the top of the key trying to do everything isn't going to work.

Now here's the thing: He's pretty damn good at it, probably one of the best ever at that. But on top of it not being an optimum strategy, unfortunately, Lebron's play style almost dictates it. He's always defaulted to this style. He's a great scorer so you want him scoring; he's a great playmaker so you want the ball in his hands; he's a great defender so you want him defending. But a guy can't do all that and attempting to do all that hinders the rest of the team. I don't think Lebron could fit in a highly orchestrated system where the star has to lower their usage. I don't think his instincts or tool set caters to it. If he was drafted and played for someone else, then, maybe. But he's an almost-master of all trades. That's who he is.

[Spurs m8]

This was obvious watching the games tbh, and why I think it was a boring finals series for the most part...Cavs just didn't have the talent, LeBron didn't have the talent, so they thought their best shot was running the clock and having games with less possessions.

Thank **** it didn't work, karma, cop a dick, Cavs

[Hey Yo]

The Cavs definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.

Which means if Delly shoots 29% instead of 28% Cavs win. J.R Smith shoots 32% instead of 31%, Cavs win, Shump shoots 26% instead of 25% Cavs win....correct?


The statistical reality is that Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG
Which means if LeBrons teammates shot a combined 45.3% eFG, they would have won the series.....correct?


Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact... Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).
Yet you can't get past the fact that the 3 other perimeter players shot a combined 50-173. If they shoot better, Cavs win...correct?

[3ball]

Uh, what? Vantage is one of the player tracking/analytics/data partners of the NBA. That graphic is just a visualization of their data.

https://team.vantagesports.com
https://mobile.twitter.com/vantagesports
What does the article have to do with Lebron's time of possession being an insanely high 12.0 minutes per game in the Finals and 50% higher than the regular season leader?

If you can't say what the connection is, then why even enter the thread?

[FKAri]

http://www.vantagesports.com/story/VEkOBCgAACcARDvz/everything-you-need-to-know-about-shot-selection

I'll just leave this here. Second graph speaks for itself.

RIP 3ball


What does the article have to do with Lebron's time of possession being an insanely high 12.0 minutes per game in the Finals and 50% higher than the regular season leader?

If you can't say what the connection is, then why even enter the thread?

Really, bro? That post is the ether to your earlier post. You know, the one I called garbage and you sidestepped? This kind of deception should be a bannable offense. Take the L. Start a new thread where you'll find unsuspecting posters who won't see that you go in circles.

[fpliii]

What does the article have to do with Lebron's time of possession being an insanely high 12.0 minutes per game in the Finals and 50% higher than the regular season leader?

If you can't say what the connection is, then why even enter the thread?
I don't care about your LeBron debate. You and another poster claimed it is easier to score later in the shot clock. The data confirms that the opposite holds.

[3ball]

I don't care about your LeBron debate. You and another poster claimed it is easier to score later in the shot clock. The data confirms that the opposite holds.

I never claimed it was easier to score late in the shot clock.. So you just lied by claiming I said that..

Here was my post - after reading it, vacate the thread, since you have nothing pertinent to add:





It's easier to score when you have more time to decide what to do and can wait for the right spot.

In Lebron's case, he had 50% more time of possession than anyone had all year - his 12.0 minutes per game was 50% higher than the regular season league-leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes..

Such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..

Keep it real bro - 50% higher time of possession is insane and very likely the record, BY A MILE

[FKAri]

It's like watching an insect on its back. It's over. Yet you keep squirming.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa461/mauverelic/13.gif

[3ball]

Yet you can't get past the fact that the 3 other perimeter players shot a combined 50-173. If they shoot better, Cavs win...correct?


Lebron is the team's best player, so he bears more blame if he shoots poorly than his teammates.

But you want to blame the lesser players instead, and exhonerate the best player???... Even though the best player shot worse than his teammates?

Keep deluding yourself and thinking Lebron's repeated Finals losses have nothing to do with him... Go ahead and exhonerate a guy for shooting 39%.... even though he didn't get double-teamed, used a stat-padding clearout style, and had insanely high time of possession.

[fpliii]

I never claimed it was easier to score late in the shot clock.. So you just lied by claiming I said that..

Here was my post - after reading it, vacate the thread, since you have nothing pertinent to add:
You co-signed this post

Of course it's easier to score earlier in the shotclock in transition scenarios. However If you are not in transition and in the half court offense, the longer you hold onto the ball the better chance you have to get a quality offensive look.
with:

Of course and thanks for pointing that out..

I should have told FKari that my post assumes HALF COURT SETS, which are literally 80% of the NBA offense..

The NBA is less than 20% transition/early offense.. This is statistical fact.. So I assumed FKari knew I was talking about half court sets.
Nothing else needs to be said.

[3ball]

You co-signed this post

with:

Nothing else needs to be said.


warriorfan was talking about an INDIVIDUAL player's efficiency, not a team's efficiency:


"the longer you hold onto the ball the better chance you have to get a quality offensive look."


So your data isn't relevant - your data measures a team's efficiency late in the shot clock... It doesn't measure a player's individual efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time.. Obviously, the two are very different.

This thread is about Lebron's insanely high time of possession, so a player's individual efficiency after holding the ball is the relevant stat, not team efficiency at the end of shot clocks.. Again, take your Lebron fan-dom elsewhere.. We were actually having fruitful discussion before your senseless derail.
.

[fpliii]

warriorfan was talking about an INDIVIDUAL player's efficiency, not a team's efficiency:


"the longer you hold onto the ball the better chance you have to get a quality offensive look."


So your data isn't relevant - your data measures a TEAM'S efficiency late in the shot clock... It doesn't measure a player's INDIVIDUAL efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time.. Obviously, the two are very different.

This thread is about Lebron's insanely high time of possession, so a player's individual efficiency after holding the ball is the relevant stat, not team efficiency at the end of shot clocks.. Again, take your Lebron fan-dom elsewhere.. We were actually having fruitful discussion before your senseless derail.
Are you for real? Team efficiency is an aggregate of individual player efficiency. Jesus Christ dude.

Funny that you call anybody who disagrees with your points a LeBron fan (and I don't derail discussion, I correct the spread of misinformation). That's my cue to leave. There's no conspiracy, it's not the world against you.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron is the team's best player, so he bears more blame if he shoots poorly than his teammates.
Except he didn't shoot worse than the other perimeter teammates.


But you want to blame the lesser players instead, and exhonerate the best player???... Even though the best player shot worse than his teammates?
Except he didn't shoot worse than the other perimeter teammates.


Keep deluding yourself and thinking Lebron's repeated Finals losses have nothing to do with him... Go ahead and exhonerate a guy for shooting 39%.... even though he didn't get double-teamed, used a stat-padding clearout style, and had insanely high time of possession.
He was the best player on those B2B Finals losses. Could have shot better in 2015 but so could have his teammates.

[3ball]

Except he didn't shoot worse than the other perimeter teammates.


Lebron's eFG was 43.2%, while his teammates' was 43.3%... Lebron's teammates shot better than he did in the Finals.. This is a fact.

Again, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).
.

[3ball]

Are you for rea? Team efficiency is an aggregate of individual player efficiency. Jesus Christ dude.


So wait - you think a TEAM'S efficiency at the end of a shot clock is indicative of an INDIVIDUAL PLAYER'S efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time?

Seriously, let's just agree to disagree on basketball..

Also, your Lebron fan-dom is creepy, because you try to hide it.. You're disingenuous about the guys you root for.

[fpliii]

So wait - you think a team's efficiency at the end of a shot clock is indicative of an individual player's efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time?

Seriously, let's just agree to disagree on basketball.. You're such a shallow, basic thinker, it's amazing.
How am I a shallow thinker? Dude, we never actually debate our basketball opinions on here. It always comes down to an argument over semantics or straight data. :lol

For real, I just chime in when I see something worth correcting. If you want to have a debate on basketball philosophy, start a thread at some point and I can chime in. I think you're a good dude, but I think you let this agenda stuff get out of hand.

[3ball]

How am I a shallow thinker? Dude, we never actually debate our basketball opinions on here. It always comes down to an argument over semantics or straight data. :lol

For real, I just chime in when I see something worth correcting. If you want to have a debate on basketball philosophy, start a thread at some point and I can chime in. I think you're a good dude, but I think you let this agenda stuff get out of hand.
You didn't correct anything - you said team efficiency is indicative of an individual's efficiency, which is ridiculous..

You just derailed the thread with useless information that has no bearing on Lebron's high time of possession.

[fpliii]

Also, your Lebron fan-dom is creepy, because you try to hide it.. You're disingenuous about the guys you root for.
lol I'm disingenuous?

People on Real GM give me shit for having a guy like KG clearly better than LeBron all-time, yet because somebody disagrees with you in any topic, he/she is automatically a LeBron fan.

:kobe:

[catch24]

Makes sense considering the Cavs were missing BOTH Kyrie Irving and K Love. Nothing really shocking here.


So wait - you think a TEAM'S efficiency at the end of a shot clock is indicative of an INDIVIDUAL PLAYER'S efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time?

Seriously, let's just agree to disagree on basketball..

Also, your Lebron fan-dom is creepy, because you try to hide it.. You're disingenuous about the guys you root for.

What makes you think he's a LeBron fan? lol.

[fpliii]

You didn't correct anything - you said team efficiency is indicative of an individual's efficiency, which is ridiculous..

You just derailed the thread with useless information that has no bearing on Lebron's high time of possession.
I did two things:

1) Correct a belief that it's easier to score later in the shot clock than earlier.

2) State the obvious, that team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring.

I made no reference to ball dominance, time of possession, LeBron, or anyone.

[fpliii]

Makes sense considering the Cavs were missing BOTH Kyrie Irving and K Love. Nothing really shocking here.



What makes you think he's a LeBron fan? lol.
He thinks I'm a LeBron fan because last year on Real GM before he was banned, and on here, I mentioned that in the 2014 Finals, the Heat lost because of their poor defense, as opposed to offense. That pissed 3ball off for some reason (even though LeBron was a part of the team defense and was responsible for many of the blown rotations that gave up easy threes), and since then the dude has disliked me.

[warriorfan]

Are you for real? Team efficiency is an aggregate of individual player efficiency. Jesus Christ dude.

Funny that you call anybody who disagrees with your points a LeBron fan (and I don't derail discussion, I correct the spread of misinformation). That's my cue to leave. There's no conspiracy, it's not the world against you.

Now you are just reaching. Just stop dude. :facepalm

[3ball]

I did two things:

1) Correct a belief that it's easier to score later in the shot clock than earlier.

2) State the obvious, that team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring.


No one itt has claimed the red above... So again, your data was an unnecessary derail.. I already posted warriorfan's quote - he was referring to an individual's efficiency, which is obviously different from a team's efficiency.

Regarding #2 above - team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring, but a team's scoring stats are far different from any one player's stats, which is what we were talking about - the individual..

So again, your post was a derail, as usual.. You have a real penchant for posting irrelevant shit.. :confusedshrug:.. I've noticed this trend for a while now.
.

[fpliii]

Now you are just reaching. Just stop dude. :facepalm
Excuse me?

Team efficiency in PPP = sum (all individual player points scored) / sum (all individual possessions used). This is vacuously true.

[3ball]

Excuse me?

Team efficiency in PPP = sum (all individual player points scored) / sum (all individual possessions used). This is vacuously true.
That's fine... But it has NOTHING to do with the thread.

An individual's efficiency is a far different topic than a team's efficiency.. Why you brought up team efficiency in this thread, I will never know.

[fpliii]

No one itt has claimed the red above... So again, your data was an unnecessary derail.. I already posted warriorfan's quote - he was referring to an individual's efficiency, which is obviously different from a team's efficiency.

Regarding #2 above - team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring, but a team's scoring stats are far different from any one player's stats, which is what we were talking about - the individual..

So again, your post was a derail, as usual.. You have a real penchant for posting irrelevant shit.. :confusedshrug:.. I've noticed this trend for a while now.
.
Scroll up to post 95 in this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11843346&postcount=95

I'm not going in circles with you.

[juju151111]

Scroll up to post 95 in this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11843346&postcount=95

I'm not going in circles with you.
Is espn not doing Rapm this year?

[fpliii]

Is espn not doing Rapm this year?
It's too early in the season probably, since you need a lot of possessions for them to be relevant. Jeremias Engleman (J.E.) is still working for them, so he'll have his numbers out soon. Note that those aren't pure RAPM, they're RPM (also known as xRAPM) - which is a blend of box score data and play-by-play data.

[3ball]

Because what you posted was an opinion.


You're factually incorrect - it isn't opinion that Lebron shot horrifically in the 2015 playoffs and Finals..

It isn't opinion that Lebron used stat-padding, AAU-style clearouts to achieve his Finals stats.

It isn't opinion that Lebron's time of possession in the Finals was 50% higher than the regular season leader.

Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).

[3ball]

Scroll up to post 95 in this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11843346&postcount=95

I'm not going in circles with you.
The fact that Lebron's high time of possession helped him accumulate stats has nothing to do with a team's efficiency late in the shot clock.

Only someone who is dumb and biased for Lebron would think the two have connection.

[fpliii]

The fact that Lebron's high time of possession helped him accumulate stats has nothing to do with a team's efficiency late in the shot clock.

Only someone who is dumb and biased for Lebron would think the two have connection.
When have I mentioned LeBron in this thread?

Is this a roundabout way of asking me my opinion on the Finals?

[juju151111]

It's too early in the season probably, since you need a lot of possessions for them to be relevant. Jeremias Engleman (J.E.) is still working for them, so he'll have his numbers out soon. Note that those aren't pure RAPM, they're RPM (also known as xRAPM) - which is a blend of box score data and play-by-play data.
What do you consider the more reliable one pure or xrapm.

[fpliii]

What do you consider the more reliable one pure or xrapm.
xRAPM in a previous year is superior at predicting xRAPM the next year than RAPM in a previous year is at predicting RAPM in the next year (since the blend includes elements of the box score that are consistent). So in terms of statistical 'reliability' (which is the consistency of a measure), xRAPM would be superior.

In terms of statistical validity (degree of correctness), RAPM is superior. It has superior explanatory value, since it is a mathematical isolation of an individual's impact on scoring margin.

I use RAPM in my analysis since my primary interest is in player/team comparisons.

Hope that helps.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron's eFG was 43.2%, while his teammates' was 43.3%... Lebron's teammates shot better than he did in the Finals.. This is a fact.

Again, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).
.
Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[juju151111]

xRAPM in a previous year is superior at predicting xRAPM the next year than RAPM in a previous year is at predicting RAPM in the next year (since the blend includes elements of the box score that are consistent). So in terms of statistical 'reliability' (which is the consistency of a measure), xRAPM would be superior.

In terms of statistical validity (degree of correctness), RAPM is superior. It has superior explanatory value, since it is a mathematical isolation of an individual's impact on scoring margin.

I use RAPM in my analysis since my primary interest is in player/team comparisons.

Hope that helps.
Oh ok because one think i payed very close attention too was Harden defense last year in the RS and he was definitely giving more effort and better and the stat showed he was better then 14. I been trying to find a stat that correctly judges individual defense and DRAPM seems to be the closest one.

[warriorfan]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[Hey Yo]

This is the point that I was trying to make. LeBron's playground style, non ball sharing, and non equal opportunity offense decreases the statistical output of his teammates. When other players play in LeBron's ball dominated style of basketball, it doesn't allow them to get into the flow of the game. Imagine playing a game of basketball and you get frozen out for stretches of 5 to 10 minutes with out even touching the basketball because one player is dominating the ball the entire time. When you finally get the ball in your hands you are not going to be in rhythm and not be able to play up to your best ability. It's quite obvious that Jr Smith Jones and Shumpert are all respectable shooters and far superior than a player with 0 FG%. Unfortunately that is the biproduct of LeBron ball, it completely freezes out the rest of the team.
So why were they only able to score when LeBron was ON the court?

[warriorfan]

So why were they only able to score when LeBron was ON the court?

LeBron played for over 90% of the total minutes of the Finals. You are extracting too small of a sample size for any sort of factual conclusion to be drawn.

What is a factual conclusion that can be drawn is that LeBron has decreased the overall statistical output of all of his team mates through his ball dominating, playground style of basketball. There are hundreds of examples of this with sample sizes 10 times as large as 10% of one 6 game series.

[fpliii]

Is this a roundabout way of asking me my opinion on the Finals?
In case it was...

I will state several observations about the 2015 Finals:

1) I don

[Hey Yo]

LeBron played for over 90% of the total minutes of the Finals. You are extracting too small of a sample size for any sort of factual conclusion to be drawn.

What is a factual conclusion that can be drawn is that LeBron has decreased the overall statistical output of all of his team mates through his ball dominating, playground style of basketball. There are hundreds of examples of this with sample sizes 10 times as large as 10% of one 6 game series.
0-21 is not a small sample size.

[warriorfan]

0-21 is not a small sample size.

:facepalm

You are obviously trolling. I think we are done here.

[dhsilv]

[QUOTE=fpliii]

[warriorfan]

[QUOTE=fpliii]In case it was...

I will state several observations about the 2015 Finals:

1) I don

[sdot_thadon]

It's easier to score when you have more time to decide what to do and can wait for the right spot.

In Lebron's case, he had 50% more time of possession than anyone had all year - his 12.0 minutes per game was 50% higher than the regular season league-leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes..

Such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..

Keep it real bro - 50% higher time of possession is insane and very likely the record, BY A MILE
.
Completely and utterly untrue. I see fpliii already stomped you out like you were begging for. But I'll reiterate anyhow. Fg% lowers as clock time gets scarce, so if he's holding the ball all these insane amounts of time then it's harder to score not easier. (Seven seconds or less offense anyone?) Just in case you couldn't parse what the link said. The fact that Lebron thinks through possessions actually complicates his scoring, so maybe you should appreciate the numbers even more because he basically played with a handicap so to speak.

Lastly, you continue to parrot this weak topic around but never get to the real root. Not even once. If MJ reaches the finals without grant/rodman, then loses pippen after game 1.......He'd have the ball the same amount if not more, unless you think he's going to be cool with more attempts going to kukoc, king, bucheler, Williams, etc. Also you actually believe he'd work at normal efficiency without those guys there against finals teams as well.....say 96 for example?

[GIF REACTION]

Holy shit. warriorfan AKA slim jim getting his ass DESTROYED.

[3ball]

In case it was...


I don't respect your opinion.. I only engage you to inform you of things you don't know about the game, that I want you to know.