Pippen or Kawhi???!

[sundizz]

Who will end up being considered a better player from age 24 to 33 (their peak/prime)?

[FKAri]

Kawhi. I have faith in Pop, the Spurs, and in his work ethic and dedication. He is only going to get better and he will really blossom in the next few years.

[Sakkreth]

Pippen.

[bigkingsfan]

The guy who tips.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Really liking what I'm seeing from Kawhi so far this season... Looks like he really improved his game, hope he keeps it that way... Dude's a stud already, and I wouldn't be TOO surprised if he has a better prime than Scottie, tht's pretty difficult though so let's see...

[Uncle Drew]

Wonder what 3ball thinks about this. I am sure he'll foresee us with an objective analysis.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

How long is Pop going to coach? Kiwi to 33 is what? Another 9 years. Pop turns 67 in a couple months. He's probably going to die in the next 9 years, tbh. 76 is old as ****.

[Tycriss]

1e year :
S.Pippen : 7.9pts 3.8rbs 2.1ast 1.2stl
K.Leonard : 7.9pts 5.1rbs 1.1ast 1.3stl

2y :
S.Pippen : 14.4pts 6.1rbs 3.5 ast 1.9stl
K.Leonard :11.9pts 6.0rbs 1.6ast 1.7stl

3y :
S.Pippen : 16.5pts 6.7rbs 5.4ast 2.6stl
K.Leonard : 12.8pts 6.2rbs 2.0ast 1.7stl

4y :
S.Pippen : 17.8pts 7.3rbs 6.2ast 2.4stl
K.Leonard : 16.5pts 7.2rbs 2.5ast 2.3stl

5y :
S.Pippen : 21.0pts 7.7rbs 7.0ast 1.9stl
K.Leonard : 22.1pts 7.6rbs 1.1ast 2.0stl

[ArbitraryWater]

Kawhi will go down top 25

[T_L_P]

Depends on Kawhi's trajectory. Despite what the stat watchers are saying, Kawhi's not actually playing better than he was last year (especially offensively), so if he's only going to get marginally better than he is now, it's Pippen.

That said, I could easily see Kawhi taking another leap in his development which would put him in a class few have matched (like AW said, if he does improve even further and plays like it for a good decade, somewhere around the top twenty-five isn't overshooting it at all).

Pop hasn't made Kawhi though. Kawhi is the one who made improvements, with the help of Ime Udoka (Kawhi and Danny's defensive coach) and Chip Engelland (shooting coach legend). He'll still be who he is after Pop is gone (which'll be around 2020).

[SouBeachTalents]

Wonder what 3ball thinks about this. I am sure he'll foresee us with an objective analysis.

I always rely on 3ball for objective analysis. People who think Pippen isn't a top 100 player of all time are reliable sources of information

[SHAQisGOAT]

One area which I think that Kawhi's never even getting that close to Pippen, though... is playmaking/passing. And that's very important, ofc.

[gcvbcat]

Kawhi will not come within sniffing distance of Pippen. the only thing he has over scottie is the FMVP which was really a gift considering no one on the spurs really outstanding numbers, it was a team effort & of course they were against a lebron led team.

[FKAri]

Kawhi will not come within sniffing distance of Pippen. the only thing he has over scottie is the FMVP which was really a gift considering no one on the spurs really outstanding numbers, it was a team effort & of course they were against a lebron led team.

Scottie blew his chance at a finals mvp by having a meltdown.

[Magic 32]

Kawhi will go down top 25

Sure.

Just like Jason Terry and Andre Iguodala.

[dhsilv]

Scottie blew his chance at a finals mvp by having a meltdown.

I'll never forget the year his back was jacked up, the announcer at the end of the series saying something along the lines of "Jordan is taking home the finals MPV because pippen can't carry it" or something along those lines. To me Pippen earned that one, MJ was MJ so you can't ever really take an award from him, but Pippen was in so much pain and made so many HUGE plays. I really wish he'd gotten it. Of course message boards full of mostly idiots would likely hold that against jordan instead of being happy for pippen but that's sports. It's why people are fans of Duncan and get baffled at most of the discussions on these boards.

[ClipperRevival]

It's going to come down to how far Kwahi goes as a scorer. Pip never had "the man", take over the game type offensive skills and that's what kept him a tier below the true greats. Impacting the game isn't that hard when you have the measurables and athleticism as these two. It's just a matter of seeing how far Kwahi will develop as a scorer.

[Naero]

Kawhi Leonard.

Scottie Pippen is perhaps the best sidekick in NBA history; that doesn't need to be seen as an indictment on his legacy, but it does put a ceiling on where he can stand as a player due to his failure to break out of the "sidekick" epithet that's defined his career. He may be an integral piece to a championship-contention team, but he has proven he could only do so as a complementary piece rather than a centerpiece; that pecking order is always going to take a hit on his legacy when you put your GM-thinking cap and decide who to primarily build around when rebuilding a franchise.

The six-time champion and reputedly all-time-great perimetric defender had his chance to take the leadership mantle once Michael Jordan shocked the world by abruptly retiring in 1993. While they did initially exceed expectations with not too dramatic of a fall-off of regular-season success

[bizil]

It's going to come down to how far Kwahi goes as a scorer. Pip never had "the man", take over the game type offensive skills and that's what kept him a tier below the true greats. Impacting the game isn't that hard when you have the measurables and athleticism as these two. It's just a matter of seeing how far Kwahi will develop as a scorer.

Well said! If Leonard develops into an alpha dog scorer, I think he would be the superior player. In many ways, his athletic ability and hands remind me of Dr. J. If he got close to Dr. J's scoring ability AND combines it with his great defense and rebounding at the SF, then LOOK OUT!! At that point, Leonard would be a great scorer, great defender, and great rebounder for a SF. Which is something VERY RARE among SF's historically. Only guys like Bron, Baylor, Hondo, and G Hill have done shit like that from the 3 spot.

[bizil]

One area which I think that Kawhi's never even getting that close to Pippen, though... is playmaking/passing. And that's very important, ofc.


I agree! They are two different SF's in my opinion. The ONLY thing Pippen wasn't great at was scoring. But Pip was STILL a very good scorer. Leonard on the other hand isn't great at passing OR scoring. Passing wise, he will NEVER be on Pip's level. But scoring wise, Leonard could very well eclipse Pippen.

[AintNoSunshine]

Can you name a second thing Kawhi can do better on the basketball court than Pippen besides 3pt shooting?

[keep-itreal]

Can you name a second thing Kawhi can do better on the basketball court than Pippen besides 3pt shooting?

getting a FMVP

[AintNoSunshine]

getting a FMVP

Nobody was getting the FMVP over the GOAT for this doesn't count. Kawhi had a sht first 2 games of the series too. He won by default because that team was too balanced.

[dhsilv]

Can you name a second thing Kawhi can do better on the basketball court than Pippen besides 3pt shooting?

Not that we have a big enough sample, but I think he's a better rebounder. His post game at this stage in his career is better.

[Teanett]

Not that we have a big enough sample, but I think he's a better rebounder. His post game at this stage in his career is better.

:no:

Kawhi is good in the post for todays standards, because hardly anybody has a post game, but it's nothing special, e.g. he can't pass out of the post.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Kawhi Leonard.

Scottie Pippen is perhaps the best sidekick in NBA history; that doesn't need to be seen as an indictment on his legacy, but it does put a ceiling on where he can stand as a player due to his failure to break out of the "sidekick" epithet that's defined his career. He may be an integral piece to a championship-contention team, but he has proven he could only do so as a complementary piece rather than a centerpiece; that pecking order is always going to take a hit on his legacy when you put your GM-thinking cap and decide who to primarily build around when rebuilding a franchise.

This is 3ball level of stanism and Pippen hatred cleverly cloaked behind a knowledgeable basketball facade. Where do I even start?


The six-time champion and reputedly all-time-great perimetric defender had his chance to take the leadership mantle once Michael Jordan shocked the world by abruptly retiring in 1993. While they did initially exceed expectations with not too dramatic of a fall-off of regular-season success—much of which I'd attribute to the Bulls retooling the team with Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr, in addition to their enkindled motivation to prove they can sustain their success without the GOAT—they eventually collapsed, and perhaps the intangibles of his leadership deficiencies are more illustrative than the on-paper record.

Like you said, Jordan retired abruptly. So abruptly in fact that the Bulls couldn't even find a decent replacement for him at the SG position. They basically had a D-Leaguer and came within a possession of beating the team that barely lost to the Rockets in a 7 game series. Put even just an all-star SG on that Bulls team and they win the chip. What happened when Jordan didn't have an all-star SF on his team? That's right, he went 1-9.


Being a streaky scorer, Pippen never had the well-rounded game to lead his team by example—a similar quandary that the present-age Bulls seem to be facing, unless Jimmy Butler continues soaring his career trajectory. More glaring than that were his off-the-court issues; he ended up arrested partway through the 1993-94 season, was notorious for having problems with teammates on both the Bulls and the Rockets, and he had immature problem-handling approaches at times (such as when he was self-requestedly removed from a playoff game because Phil Jackson did not run an eventually game-winning play through him).

Are you 3ball's alt by any chance? I'm serious. This is some pathetic stuff, man. Stop it. Pippen not well-rounded? He's one of the most well-rounded players of all time. He's not the prototype for LeBron for nothing. His scoring is very good, nothing to sneeze at. His passing/playmaking combined with his consistent scoring puts him right up there with some of the best offensive players of all time. I don't remember who it was, but someone listed Magic's prime/peak numbers next to Pip's and they were VERY comparable, especially considering Pippen adds GOAT level defense to his side of the story as well. The dude is literally comparable to top 5/10 players of all time impact wise, but yeah, let's just call him a one-trick pony.

Off the court issues? Like gambling addiction for instance? Last I checked the league didn't ban Pippen for a year and his father is still breathing. Problems with teammates? You mean like punching a future GOAT coach teammate in the dome piece or something like that? Jordan never came back to the locker room and kicked chairs because Phil wouldn't let him chuck to his heart's content?


After overachieving in 1993-94 by maintaining most of the winning culture fostered by Jordan and sustaining the motivation with a new chip on their shoulder, the Bulls eventually collapsed to what everyone expected them to be in the wake of Jordan's retirement: a bottom-seeded playoff team at best. They were starting to truly languish under Pippen's leadership, who failed to sustained the culture that Jordan was the impetus to, and they were 34-31 before Jordan returned and surged them to a 13-4 seasonal ending.

You got damn right he overachieved. Had a below D-League SG and still nearly won the chip. Winning culture fostered by Jordan?! Jordan was a notorious loser before Jackson and Pippen arrived. You have got to be kidding me. Stop acting like Mr. 1-9 didn't leave them high and dry with no decent SG prospects. Like that had absolutely no bearing on how they did in the post season. Bottom seed? They won 55 games. They were far from a bottom seed. Anguish under Pippen's leadership? The same Pippen that Phil Jackson appointed as team captain over Jordan? Pippen and Jackson brought a winning culture to the Bulls, not Jordan. Jordan is a career loser without those boys. That's a fact. They were 34-31 because they lost Grant, not because Jordan wasn't on the roster. If that was the case, they would of been awful the year before. You're just arguing what ifs and fairy tales. Nothing you're actually saying is a fact, just personal Jordan stanism observations. It's pathetic.


The bottom line is that Pippen has proven he can't be a leader, while Leonard seems to be transitioning into that role seamlessly as we speak. The 2015 Defensive Player has a more well-rounded repertoire to him in addition to his defensive prowess, and while he sometimes needs to be pushed to be more assertive offensively, he has proven himself to be a two-way player—what's ideally needed to lead your team as an on-the-court exemplar—and has even been recognized as the team-leader at least during the 2014 NBA Finals with his Finals MVP awardeeship.

But he WAS the leader of those Bulls teams. Jackson appointed him as such. When Jordan was the leader, they got swept year in and year out with loing records. Why are you lying? Leonard is not the leader either. Duncan is the clear cut leader of the Spurs. And after that it would be Manu, Parker, etc. Even attempting to suggest that Leonard is the leader is asinine and goes to show just what lengths you'll go to push your agenda. How is Leonard more well-rounded? The ****? He hasn't even shown higher scoring unless you consider a tiny sample size anything. Let's wait and see what he actually ends up before jumping to conclusions here. Pip's playmaking/passing is far beyond that of anything Kawhi has shown so far. Again, no, he was not the team leader because he won FMVP. Was Parker the team leader in '07 when he won? What about Iggy in '15 when he won? Cornbread in '81? Yeah, that's what I thought. Leonard had 2 bad games and 3 good ones. Duncan deserved it more than anyone overall for the series, but Kawhi won because he defended LeBron. Nothing more needs to be said.


Renowned for being one of the quietest players in the NBA, the silent assassin may be shy of the locker-room vocality that's concomitant to team leadership, but it is one side of the imbalance I would prefer as to Pippen's abrasive chemistry with his teammates. Leonard might not ever be assertive enough to truly leverage the best out of his teammates, but that is not a net-negative impact compared to Pippen's divisive relationships with his teammates.

Pippen's abrasive chemistry with his teammates? Ain't Parish have to yoke up on Jordan's perpetratin' ass? Last I heard my boy Horace Grant went in on that fool too recently about the true Jordan. Too many stories have surfaced about that dude to try and pretend like he got along with everyone in the locker room or in practice. Just makes you look like a stan at this point. Now you saying BDP is a net negative impact. Why the **** would Phil Jackson appoint a net negative impact player as captain of the team? Why do people call Pippen the ultimate team player? Yeah, I've read enough. Calling it right now. This dude is 3ball y'all. Check I.P.'s. I ain't wrong. Trust me.

[Mass Debator]

Pippen. You have to game plan against him more because of his ability to run an offense for a 6-8 dude. For Kawhi, it's more about game planning the system. Pippen's defense is still >>

[Carbine]

Kawai is Pippen if Pippen went from a fantastic playmaker to a well below average one.

Pretty big difference, but Kawai still a great player.

[riseagainst]

the guy who won finals MVP

[Elosha]

For me right now it is still Scottie Pippen, but Kawhi has a lot of marks to make left in his career so time will tell. Here's what I see so far as to which player is better at different facets of the game.

Scoring - Edge to Pippen, he was a very good, relatively consistent scorer throughout his relatively long prime, taking away his first two years in the league and after he left the Bulls. Probably could have been a bit of a better jump shooter, Kawhi may already be better at the mid-range game than Scottie. Post ups are about even, both were excellent down low. About even, or a slight edge to Pippen for three point shooting, but I'd give Scottie a fairly substantial edge on the fast break and finishing. Not that Kawhi's a slouch there, but Scottie was really one of the GOAT finishers, incredibly explosive, huge hands, long arms. Rarely has any player finished higher over the rim than Scottie.

Athleticism - Both are very explosive, athletic SF's but I've got to give the edge to Scottie. For one, he was, like Jordan, an explosive leaper off one or two feet. Kawhi's a very good (not great) two foot leaper, but doesn't seem to have the same lift off one. Scottie was also one of the fastest players end to end that I've ever seen, I haven't quite seen the same speed from Leonard. Scottie's like a 9.5 - 10 athlete and Kawhi's like an 8.5 - 9.0. Both impressive, but there's a clear difference.

Rebounding - A wash or slight edge to Kawhi. But of course, when we're comparing career numbers, we must keep in mind that we're including Pippen's years of decline, which Kawhi hasn't reached yet. Both are very good rebounders from the 3 spot and can get a critical board when needed.

Playmaking/Ballhandling - Clearly goes to Pippen. Better passer, facilitator, ball handler, better at leading the break. But to be fair, that's not a role Kawhi is asked to undertake with the Spurs. But that's not to say he couldn't become a much better passer, he tends to be a ball stopper. However, Spurs need a go to, at times isolation scorer, and that's what he gives them right now. He could get better in this area as his career progresses, but I don't see the same type of overall court vision from him as Scottie's.

Defense - Both great, great defenders. Excellent ball hawks, team defenders, great lateral quickness and desires from both. Can't go wrong either way.

Intangibles/Leadership - Scottie was a good overall chemistry guy in the locker room, a guy that generated respect and cohesiveness from his teammates. True, he wasn't entirely comfortable being an alpha level player, but no one can state he didnt' play a key role in leading the Bulls to their 6 titles. Kawhi is a much more quiet, lead by example personality. He seems to have the respect of his teammates, but the true test for him will be when the Big 3 finally succumb to age and he truly becomes the primary focal point for their offense. How will he respond, how will he lead? Time will tell.

[dhsilv]

:no:

Kawhi is good in the post for todays standards, because hardly anybody has a post game, but it's nothing special, e.g. he can't pass out of the post.

Was pippen's any better at this stage? Also I was intending that to just mean his ability to score. He's nowhere near Pippen as a passer or ball handler. That gap is imo at least why I don't see him getting close to Pippen.

[West-Side]

It's obviously Pippen, like what the **** do you people smoke?
I feel like I'm talking baksetball with 12 year olds.

Kawhi has a LONG way to go before he is ever considered as good or better than Pip.

This is a top 35 player of all-time we're talking about...

Of ALL-TIME.

[DMAVS41]

Pippen.

Pippen has a huge edge here on his ability to pass and play within the flow of the game even with the ball in his hands...Leonard simply hasn't shown an ability to do anything but shoot with the ball in his hands.

[r0drig0lac]

Pippen is not close .... for now, but the difference will fall each year, and Kawhi really have a chance to overcome it when all is said and done

[sundizz]

Bump.

[JohnFreeman]

Do you understand how fvcking good Pippen was?

[dgaras]

howd we go from comparing him to parsons to saying hes better than pippen? :biggums:

[sundizz]

Do you understand how fvcking good Pippen was?

Yeah, I think he is always underrated and is one of my top 10 favorite players of all time.

His best season (93-94), age 28, when he finished 3rd in MVP voting was an outstanding 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg, .8 bpg, 3.2 to's on 49%, 32%, 66% in 38.3 minutes per game.

I think that Kawhi can get to that level.

At age 24, he is putting up 21.8 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.1 bpg, 1.3 to's on 52%, 47%, 85% in 34.9 minutes per game.

Pippen was a much better player. His averages for those 6 championships are amazing. It's doubtful Kawhi ever gets to that level of consistency and amazingness. But of all the players in the league he is the only Pippen mold that has a chance to become better than Pipp if he turns the corner into a franchise level year in year out superstar.

[Smoke117]

The fact that none of you realize how much easier Scottie would have had it in this era where you can't touch a defensive player...is hilarious. You could seriously add 3-4ppg on scottie's average if he played his entire career in this league the last 10 years. It's hilarious how you all suck of Leonard who is a poor man Scottie Pippen.

[r0drig0lac]

Kawhi with hand check would destroy opponents.

[Quickening]

The fact that none of you realize how much easier Scottie would have had it in this era where you can't touch a defensive player...is hilarious. You could seriously add 3-4ppg on scottie's average if he played his entire career in this league the last 10 years. It's hilarious how you all suck of Leonard who is a poor man Scottie Pippen.
And yet ppg is lower in this era....

[rmt]

And yet ppg is lower in this era....

Players are averaging less minutes and playing longer in this era. Gone are the days when franchise players put in 38-40 minutes a night. Look at Leonard's career average - 29.3 minutes per game.

[Smoke117]

I also find it amusing how you much high regard people have for Leonard while casually showing no respect for Pippen who was a superior player.

[Paul George 24]

Do you understand how fvcking good Pippen was?
I just know he is a cancer without jordan,see what happen IN 1994 GAME 1

[rmt]

I also find it amusing how you much high regard people have for Leonard while casually showing no respect for Pippen who was a superior player.

Leonard is an unusual case. Because of the team he's on, he hasn't proven he can carry a team like most previous franchise players yet he has performed well in the big moments and has a FMVP and DPOY. But on a night to night basis, he doesn't have the consistent numbers to be an all-star or all-nba yet (that will change this year). So for Leonard, it's still POTENTIAL (not proven - like Scottie who's got nothing to worry about for years).

[Naero]

Kawhi Leonard.

Scottie Pippen was the jack of all trades; he was a great complement to Michael Jordan at that, but that complexion of his role inherently limits his leadership impact, and his off-the-court intangibles were no saving grace to his discreditable "leadership."

Pippen is astronomically overrated; that's mostly due to Jordan-detractors who try to emasculate the perspective his GOAT impact on those championship teams. They like to vaunt about Jordan's 1-9 record without Pippen; little do they contextualize is the fact that the Jordan-led Bulls won more playoff games in spite of Pippen not even being a full-season starter for the incipient years of his career.

Leonard on the other hand--while he does need to improve his consistence--has already proven to me that he can handle the leadership onus better than Pippen. He likely leaves a lot to be desired when it pertains to locker-room vocality, but I'n not sure how many wouldn't prefer the quiet leadership over Pippen's off-the-court issues if they had to pick their poisons.

[hitmanyr2k]

Kawhi Leonard.

Scottie Pippen was the jack of all trades; he was a great complement to Michael Jordan at that, but that complexion of his role inherently limits his leadership impact, and his off-the-court intangibles were no saving grace to quote his discreditable "leadership."

Ridiculous. Pippen's teammates say otherwise about his leadership.

-- Pete Myers
"He was just unbelievable. I never viewed Scottie as a guy who needed to score hoops to feel good about himself. That wasn

[sundizz]

Kawhi at age 24 (current): 21 ppg, 7 boards on 52%, 50%, 89% and DPOY level defense.
Under his belt: 1 FMVP, DPOY

Pippen at age 24: 16.5 ppg, 6.7 boards, 5.4 dimes on 49%, 25%, 68% and good defense (started all-defensive etc recognition the next year).
Under his belt: Nada.

Gotta say I didn't think Kiwi would make this big of a jump. I predicted 20 and 8 on 50% with DPOY levels again but didn't think his three ball would have improved to this level (or free throw).

[The_Yearning]

Kawhi at age 24 (current): 21 ppg, 7 boards on 52%, 50%, 89% and DPOY level defense.
Under his belt: 1 FMVP, DPOY

Pippen at age 24: 16.5 ppg, 6.7 boards, 5.4 dimes on 49%, 25%, 68% and good defense (started all-defensive etc recognition the next year).
Under his belt: Nada.

Gotta say I didn't think Kiwi would make this big of a jump. I predicted 20 and 8 on 50% with DPOY levels again but didn't think his three ball would have improved to this level (or free throw).

Gotta respect that improved FT%. He was choking and bricking so many free throws in big games. Spurs would have probably 2peat if he made his free throws.

[Smoke117]

Kawhi at age 24 (current): 21 ppg, 7 boards on 52%, 50%, 89% and DPOY level defense.
Under his belt: 1 FMVP, DPOY

Pippen at age 24: 16.5 ppg, 6.7 boards, 5.4 dimes on 49%, 25%, 68% and good defense (started all-defensive etc recognition the next year).
Under his belt: Nada.

Gotta say I didn't think Kiwi would make this big of a jump. I predicted 20 and 8 on 50% with DPOY levels again but didn't think his three ball would have improved to this level (or free throw).

Pippen was in his 3rd year at 24...Leonard is in his 5th year. Going by age is just a stupid way to do this.