Wade - "Kobe is the best player of our era."

[stalkerforlife]

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/11/10/dwyane-wade-kobe-bryant-is-the-greatest-player-of-our-era/

Yet another current or former player giving Kobe the ultimate respect. Wade says Kobe is better than Duncan and Bran.

Yawn.

Kobe is the 2nd best of all time and no one can deny it.

[plowking]

Kobe is the 2nd best of all time and no one can deny it.

I deny it.

What now?

[stalkerforlife]

I deny it.

What now?

I don't take it seriously.

Just be logical.

Think about it.

[plowking]

I don't take it seriously.

Just be logical.

Think about it.

That is exactly what I did.

[dhsilv]

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/11/10/dwyane-wade-kobe-bryant-is-the-greatest-player-of-our-era/

Yet another current or former player giving Kobe the ultimate respect. Wade says Kobe is better than Duncan and Bran.

Yawn.

Kobe is the 2nd best of all time and no one can deny it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWCDT4AMbBA

Do you have any men's views on best player?

[AintNoSunshine]

That's about as true as:

Stalkerforlife - "Kobe will EMBARRASS Wade tonight"

[Mr Feeny]

Beautiful but that's not what Wade said.
He said that he's stated before and still believes that Kobe is the best player of OUR era (post 2004) BEFORE Lebron's signing with the Heat and the titles. Therefore Wade might believes that Kobe was the best overall player from 2004-2010. Thats all Wade said Great:applause:

Ofcourse we know that then Lebron came along and Duncan had his resurgence and have already overtaken Kobe on the all time list and still climbing, as mentioned in the article you quoted :Lebronamazed:

[catch24]

Beautiful but that's not what Wade said.
He said that he's stated before and still believes that Kobe is the best player of OUR era (post 2004) BEFORE Lebron's signing with the Heat and the titles. Therefore Wade might believes that Kobe was the best overall player from 2004-2010. Thats all Wade said Great:applause:

Ofcourse we know that then Lebron came along and Duncan had his resurgence and have already overtaken Kobe on the all time list and still climbing, as mentioned in the article you quoted :Lebronamazed:

Our as in Kobe and Wade's era, right? So why would Wade's era conclude in 2010 if he was arguably the best player in 2011, and still ELITE in 2012?

:confusedshrug:

[Rocketswin2013]

He was the best overall from 06 - 08.

[Eye Test]

"Kobe is the best player of our era."

- Captain Obvious, 2015

[AlphaWolf24]

Wade stating the obvious....


We already knew this in 2010

[magnax1]

Whoever wrote that article sounds really buttmad.

[Real14]

Wade know wassup.

[Fudge]

LeBron and Duncan are the best players of our era.

[francesco totti]

You gotta define the era.



1999 - 2007 I call it the Duncan/Shaq era
2007 - 2009/2010 - I call it kobe era
2010 - present Lebron era


Its pretty much it. From 1999, 2007 teams duncan/shaq on dominated the titles. Apart from 2004 pistons.
From 2007 to 2010 teams Kobe on been to finals, and dominated the title.
2010 - present teams lebron on always present in final..and won 2.

[Smoke117]

It's called being nice and humble...Kobe isn't even close to a Wade, Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, Durant (mvp year) during their peaks.

[Mr Feeny]

Our as in Kobe and Wade's era, right? So why would Wade's era conclude in 2010 if he was arguably the best player in 2011, and still ELITE in 2012?

:confusedshrug:Because Wade explicitly precluded those years when he cognizantly added "before lebron came"

As hard as it may be for a Kobe fan to grasp, some people just don't rate Kobe THAT high. Wade, who rates him higher than most, wouldnt even get himself to go that far.

And you must be on some good crack if you think Kobe was anywhere NEAR being the best player in 2011. There's nothing arguable about it. Lebron, Wade, Dwight and Dirk were all miles ahead of him.

[Akrazotile]

It's called being nice and humble...Kobe isn't even close to a Wade, Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, Durant (mvp year) during their peaks.


This.

[catch24]

Because Wade explicitly precluded those years when he cognizantly added "before lebron came"

All he said was that LeBron became the best player. Nothing about LeBron being the "greatest" of any era.


And you must be on some good crack if you think Kobe was anywhere NEAR being the best player in 2011. There's nothing arguable about it. Lebron, Wade, Dwight and Dirk were all miles ahead of him.

Read my post again. Nowhere did I imply Kobe was the best player in 2011.

Obviously I was referring to Wade.


It's called being nice and humble...Kobe isn't even close to a Wade, Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, Durant (mvp year) during their peaks.

Pretty sad this guy isn't even trolling. :oldlol:

[Mr Feeny]

All he said was that LeBron became the best player. Nothing about LeBron being the "greatest" of any era.



Read my post again. Nowhere did I imply Kobe was the best player in 2011.

Obviously I was referring to Wade.



Pretty sad this guy isn't even trolling. :oldlol:

Point number 1: I don't think I said that Wade claimed Lebron issue the best of the era. Wade claimed that Kobe was the man of our era, before adding the "before Lebron came". Whether Lebron has already surpassed Kobe in his eyes or not, is another thing. He hasn't said anything either way.

Point number 2: I stand corrected. I read that hurriedly and thought you stated that Kobe was unequivocally the best player in 2011.

Point 3 (response to the heat fan): which of those do you disagree with? Very few people disagree with the fact that Lebron is a better player than peak Kobe.

The rest are arguable, but you'll find quite a bunch of people who might take Wade and Durant over peak Kobe Bryant as well. At the very least, it isn't laughable.

[catch24]

Point number 1: I don't think I said that Wade claimed Lebron issue the best of the era. Wade claimed that Kobe was the man of our era, before adding the "before Lebron came". Whether Lebron has already surpassed Kobe in his eyes or not, is another thing. He hasn't said anything either way.

Point number 2: I stand corrected. I read that hurriedly and thought you stated that Kobe was unequivocally the best player in 2011.

Point 3 (response to the heat fan): which of those do you disagree with? Very few people disagree with the fact that Lebron is a better player than peak Kobe.

The rest are arguable, but you'll find quite a bunch of people who might take Wade and Durant over peak Kobe Bryant as well. At the very least, it isn't laughable.

I might be over-thinking this, but I'm not sure WHY Wade would call Kobe "the greatest of our era" AND only before LeBron became (which is why I believe he was implying "best player"). That would mean Wade's era concluded in 2010, when we all know he HIMSELF had a great argument for best player in 2011. Dude was also elite and superstar caliber in 2012. :oldlol:

Regarding your last point... To say Kobe was NOT close to any of those guys is pretty ridiculous. You could make a definitive claim that LeBron and Duncan were better peak players, but the rest? More than arguable and Kobe even has great cases over them.

[Mr Feeny]

I might be over-thinking this, but I'm not sure WHY Wade would call Kobe "the greatest of our era" AND only before LeBron became (which is why I believe he was implying "best player"). That would mean Wade's era concluded in 2010, when we all know he HIMSELF had a great argument for best player in 2011. Dude was also elite and superstar caliber in 2012. :oldlol:

Regarding your last point... To say Kobe was NOT close to any of those guys is pretty ridiculous. You could make a definitive claim that LeBron and Duncan were better peak players, but the rest? More than arguable and Kobe even has great cases over them.

Ok, we're both approaching this from different angles. I read it as him giving Kobe props and claiming that Kobe was the man of our era, before realising the oversight and deciding not to be make it a definitive statement by adding that last bit. I might be wrong and you're welcome to interpret that the way you did. Not gonna argue.

Regarding your last remark, I never claimed that Kobe wasn't anywhere near the rest? I claimed that peak for peak LeBron is certainly higher and that Wade and Durant were ARGUABLE. You'll find a similar amount of people who think Kobe at his best is better than them.
I did previously talk about 2011 Kobe (as I thought you'd stated that Kobe in that season was the number one player in the league ) and I mentioned that I didn't think he was the best - that Wade Lebron and Dirk were on a higher level that season and that I didn't think it was close. I still stand by that.
That has nothing to do with Kobe's career. Overall, there's no case to be made for Wade and Durant being better than Kobe or higher on the all time list and I never claimed such a thing.

There seems to be some confusion about what we're both trying to say.

[imnew09]

The water is wet


Kobe was voted player of the decade in 2010.

[Mr Feeny]

The water is wet


Kobe was voted player of the decade in 2010.He's also gonna be voted as an all star starter this year.

[Eye Test]

kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe kobe.

:biggums: :biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

Pretty sad this guy isn't even trolling. :oldlol:


No, he's just a well known alcoholic who gets beat by his Wife.

[HOoopCityJones]

:biggums: :biggums:

Exactly. :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

No, he's just a well known alcoholic who gets beat by his Wife.

Now that's unnecessary and callous.

[catch24]

Ok, we're both approaching this from different angles. I read it as him giving Kobe props and claiming that Kobe was the man of our era, before realising the oversight and deciding not to be make it a definitive statement by adding that last bit. I might be wrong and you're welcome to interpret that the way you did. Not gonna argue.

Yeah maybe. Just dont think it makes sense to say "Kobe was the greatest of our era before LeBron". That would be somewhat of a backhanded compliment, you know?

Its whatever though. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over that. IMO, LeBron is right there with Kobe all-time.


Regarding your last remark, I never claimed that Kobe wasn't anywhere near the rest?

Yeah I know. Was referring to that "Heat fan".

IMO, Duncan and LeBron are the only 2 players on that list you could make a definitive argument over Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

Yeah maybe. Just dont think it makes sense to say "Kobe was the greatest of our era before LeBron". That would be somewhat of a backhanded compliment, you know?

Its whatever though. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over that. IMO, LeBron is right there with Kobe all-time.



Yeah I know. Was referring to that "Heat fan".

IMO, Duncan and LeBron are the only 2 players on that list you could make a definitive argument over Kobe.


Fair enough with everything you've said. Well put and done with reason and a constructive approach to posting. No problems here. Wish some of the rest of the posters on this board learn from this man.

[catch24]

Fair enough with everything you've said. Well put and done with reason and a constructive approach to posting. No problems here. Wish some of the rest of the posters on this board learn from this man.

Right back at you.

Kobe and LeBron know how to bring out the best in people...and often times the worst. :lol

[Mr Feeny]

Right back at you.

Kobe and LeBron know how to bring out the best in people...and often times the worst. :lol

:oldlol:

[Cold soul]

Yeah maybe. Just dont think it makes sense to say "Kobe was the greatest of our era before LeBron". That would be somewhat of a backhanded compliment, you know?

Its whatever though. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over that. IMO, LeBron is right there with Kobe all-time.



Yeah I know. Was referring to that "Heat fan".

IMO, Duncan and LeBron are the only 2 players on that list you could make a definitive argument over Kobe.


Lebron not that close to surpassing Kobe but he is getting closer I'll give you that. I think only Duncan you can make great case could be argued to be ranked above Kobe nobody else since 90's era (Jordan) you can say has had better career. Kobe is easily ranked in top 10 players in histroy.

[Smoke117]

Pretty sad this guy isn't even trolling. :oldlol:

meltdown.

[Truth]

LeBron and Duncan are the best players of our era.


Your picture is gay as F leave town shythead

[sportjames23]

Your picture is gay as F leave town shythead


LOL you bout to get this work when Fudge sees this. :oldlol:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

LeBron and Duncan are the best players of our era.

:applause:

[SwayDizzle]

This is just another example of number 2 in an era giving number 1 respect.

[No_Look604]

I just wanted to state two things:

1) Duncan always had legit players around him, same can't be said for Kobe.

2) Fudge is definitely not from Oakland,CA

[Bankaii]

No, he's just a well known alcoholic who gets beat by his Wife.
Why make an unnecessary personal attack during a simple basketball debate? Kobetards are pathetic:facepalm


]Lebron not that close to surpassing Kobe but he is getting closer I'll give you that. I think only Duncan you can make great case could be argued to be ranked above Kobe nobody else since 90's era (Jordan) you can say has had better career[/B]. Kobe is easily ranked in top 10 players in histroy.
Dumbest statement of the day.

The Kobe Duncan debate is over, Duncan is higher on most objective all time lists.

Shaq, you know the guy that was the FMVP for most of 5 rings and carried him in the 2000 Finals, is ranked higher than Kobe.

Although I personally have Kobe 1-2 spots above Lebron, Lebron can easily be put over Kobe. As a player the Lebron is miles better than Kobe, he just needs more rings.

[riseagainst]

Your picture is gay as F leave town shythead

o shiiiiiit. Fudge is about to get on Vaniiaa and write essays on yo ass.

[West-Side]

stalkerforlife been putting ISH members in body bags since the release of his new rap video. :bowdown:

That logic is scary good.
Idiots on this forum can't comprehend the truth you're spitting brother.

Keep preaching though, educate the fools up in here!

[West-Side]

To contribute to this thread, Kobe Bryant was already voted the player of the decade by the NBA and the fans. :oldlol:

He was like 70% favorite, to 2nd place (Duncan) at like 17%.
It was pretty lopsided.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's called being nice and humble...Kobe isn't even close to a Wade, Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, Durant (mvp year) during their peaks.

this, he is close though.. same level as peak Wade/Dirk.

[West-Side]

this, he is close though.. same level as peak Wade/Dirk.

Peak Kobe outscored Dirk and his entire team through 3 quarters before.
Just saying. :oldlol:

[aj1987]

Peak Kobe outscored Dirk and his entire team through 3 quarters before.
Just saying. :oldlol:
I might be one of Wade's biggest fans, but saying their peaks aren't close is just asinine. That can be expected from AW though.

[WayOfWade]

Peak Kobe outscored Dirk and his entire team through 3 quarters before.
Just saying. :oldlol:
While that's impressive, I'd be even more impressed had he done it for a game, considering the fact that there are 4 quarters not 3

[stalkerforlife]

:biggums: :biggums:

:roll:

[stalkerforlife]

stalkerforlife been putting ISH members in body bags since the release of his new rap video. :bowdown:

That logic is scary good.
Idiots on this forum can't comprehend the truth you're spitting brother.

Keep preaching though, educate the fools up in here!

Posters such as yourself inspire me to keep keeping on. I just want the truth to be spread throughout eternity regarding these matters.

[DMAVS41]

Depends on how you define era. If a year or two is an "era"...then maybe.

But I don't think Kobe was ever the best player over a long period of time.

Shaq and Duncan owned the NBA from 98 through 07...Kobe was probably the best player in 08...and then Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, Durant, and Curry now all have years in which they were either as good or clearly better since 08.

So I don't think Kobe ever had an "era", but no doubt he's one of the 10 or so best players ever....and that's all that matters...not "era" BS.

[riseagainst]

Posters such as yourself inspire me to keep keeping on. I just want the truth to be spread throughout eternity regarding these matters.


dude. If I could give you a huge hug and a high five I would. You are the reason why I even come logging on this forum because of all the imbeciles that exist here. But you inspire me to live on!

:bowdown:
:applause:
:rockon:

[HOoopCityJones]

Depends on how you define era. If a year or two is an "era"...then maybe.

But I don't think Kobe was ever the best player over a long period of time.

Shaq and Duncan owned the NBA from 98 through 07...Kobe was probably the best player in 08...and then Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, Durant, and Curry now all have years in which they were either as good or clearly better since 08.

So I don't think Kobe ever had an "era", but no doubt he's one of the 10 or so best players ever....and that's all that matters...not "era" BS.


Kobe's been the best player in the league since at the very least 06-10 and that's not even considering 03 was arguably his best year as far as production on both sides of the ball. I still don't get why you're so threatened by Kobe. He's been a Top 5 player or better in this league since 2000.

[stalkerforlife]

dude. If I could give you a huge hug and a high five I would. You are the reason why I even come logging on this forum because of all the imbeciles that exist here. But you inspire me to live on!

:bowdown:
:applause:
:rockon:

You inspire me to keep breathing when life has stolen all of my proverbial oxygen. Welcome to the brotherhood.

:cheers:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe's been the best player in the league since at the very least 06-10 and that's not even considering 03 was arguably his best year as far as production on both sides of the ball. I still don't get why you're so threatened by Kobe. He's been a Top 5 player or better in this league since 2000.

Well, because I disagree. I don't think he was the best in 06 or 07...or 09 or 10.

So....

And that is why I wouldn't give Shaq or Duncan an "era" to themselves either....

What you are speaking to is Kobe having great longevity and being an elite player for a long time...and that, combined with his titles, is why he's maybe a top 10 player ever...or just looking in.

But an "era"? Just don't see it...

You guys can argue this one...I've argued it before a couple of times. The only season of Kobe's career I ever felt confident he was actually the best in the game was in 08...so I can't give said player an "era"...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe's been the best player in the league since at the very least 06-10 and that's not even considering 03 was arguably his best year as far as production on both sides of the ball. I still don't get why you're so threatened by Kobe. He's been a Top 5 player or better in this league since 2000.

Yeah, for me:

1999-2005 was the Shaq and Duncan era
2006-2010 was the Kobe era
2011-2015 was/is the LeBron era

Makes sense as Wade corrected himself by calling Kobe the greatest PRIOR to Bron joining forces with him - and later winning championships.

[HOoopCityJones]

Why make an unnecessary personal attack during a simple basketball debate? Kobetards are pathetic:facepalm




This coming from guy among a stan base that were cheering when Kobe ripped his Achilles only to then try and argue that he was faking because Kobe of all people was afraid of facing the Spurs in the first round. :oldlol:

Also, don't forget your stan base of operations thread making fun of obese, probably even slightly retarded Laker fans.

Yea, you gents just emulate class personified. :applause:

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe's been the best player in the league since at the very least 06-10 and that's not even considering 03 was arguably his best year as far as production on both sides of the ball. I still don't get why you're so threatened by Kobe. He's been a Top 5 player or better in this league since 2000.
I'll certainly give you 06-08, but 09-10 are VERY arguable. It's not an "at least" situation.

2003 is arguable as well.

[IncarceratedBob]

You gotta define the era.



1999 - 2007 I call it the Duncan/Shaq era
2007 - 2009/2010 - I call it kobe era
2010 - present Lebron era


Its pretty much it. From 1999, 2007 teams duncan/shaq on dominated the titles. Apart from 2004 pistons.
From 2007 to 2010 teams Kobe on been to finals, and dominated the title.
2010 - present teams lebron on always present in final..and won 2.
Kobes era started the year he averaged 35 ppg

[HOoopCityJones]

Well, because I disagree. I don't think he was the best in 06 or 07...or 09 or 10.

So....

And that is why I wouldn't give Shaq or Duncan an "era" to themselves either....

What you are speaking to is Kobe having great longevity and being an elite player for a long time...and that, combined with his titles, is why he's maybe a top 10 player ever...or just looking in.

But an "era"? Just don't see it...

You guys can argue this one...I've argued it before a couple of times. The only season of Kobe's career I ever felt confident he was actually the best in the game was in 08...so I can't give said player an "era"...

Here's why your logic is so fuccing flawed, and I'll only get into it once because I don't feel like having the same ol back and forth between us today.

You're sitting here praising Duncan and Shaq for the stats and rings they've accumulated in early half of the 2000's, but you want us to disregard all of that for Kobe later in the era?:biggums:

06-07 was when he was putting up amazing numbers.

08-10 is when he was doing the bulk of his winning.

And we should just downplay or disregard his because , oh you don't think it's significant?

You don't comprehend how bias and ridiculous that sounds?

[West-Side]

Depends on how you define era. If a year or two is an "era"...then maybe.

But I don't think Kobe was ever the best player over a long period of time.

Shaq and Duncan owned the NBA from 98 through 07...Kobe was probably the best player in 08...and then Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, Durant, and Curry now all have years in which they were either as good or clearly better since 08.

So I don't think Kobe ever had an "era", but no doubt he's one of the 10 or so best players ever....and that's all that matters...not "era" BS.

Kobe was voted the best player from 01' to 10'.
Both by analysts and fans.

[West-Side]

Well, because I disagree. I don't think he was the best in 06 or 07...or 09 or 10.

So....

And that is why I wouldn't give Shaq or Duncan an "era" to themselves either....

What you are speaking to is Kobe having great longevity and being an elite player for a long time...and that, combined with his titles, is why he's maybe a top 10 player ever...or just looking in.

But an "era"? Just don't see it...

You guys can argue this one...I've argued it before a couple of times. The only season of Kobe's career I ever felt confident he was actually the best in the game was in 08...so I can't give said player an "era"...

:roll:

I'm so done with the basketball forum.
I feel like I get dumber every-time I decide to visit it.

[West-Side]

Yeah, for me:

1999-2005 was the Shaq and Duncan era
2006-2010 was the Kobe era
2011-2015 was/is the LeBron era

Makes sense as Wade corrected himself by calling Kobe the greatest PRIOR to Bron joining forces with him - and later winning championships.

I agree with that assessment.
I think Kobe won the player of the decade because he was more dominant from 00' to 05' than either Duncan or Shaq were from 06' to 10'.

It really isn't rocket science.
He also won 5 rings during that time-frame, more so than any other superstar.

[Mr Feeny]

Why make an unnecessary personal attack during a simple basketball debate? Kobetards are pathetic:facepalm


Dumbest statement of the day.

The Kobe Duncan debate is over, Duncan is higher on most objective all time lists.

Shaq, you know the guy that was the FMVP for most of 5 rings and carried him in the 2000 Finals, is ranked higher than Kobe.

Although I personally have Kobe 1-2 spots above Lebron, Lebron can easily be put over Kobe. As a player the Lebron is miles better than Kobe, he just needs more rings.

Agreed with all this and personally have Lebron ahead of Kobe already, as do most people. As you said, he's miles better as a player. I think that's the point. Individually he's just flat out a better player. By a distance.
Completely agree with everything else, though.

[DMAVS41]

Here's why your logic is so fuccing flawed, and I'll only get into it once because I don't feel like having the same ol back and forth between us today.

You're sitting here praising Duncan and Shaq for the stats and rings they've accumulated in early half of the 2000's, but you want us to disregard all of that for Kobe later in the era?:biggums:

06-07 was when he was putting up amazing numbers.

08-10 is when he was doing the bulk of his winning.

And we should just downplay or disregard his because , oh you don't think it's significant?

You don't comprehend how bias and ridiculous that sounds?

It's not flawed logic at all...you can disagree, and that's fine, but I simply didn't think Kobe was the best player in any of the years you listed other than 08.

How is that flawed logic?

Like I said...you can disagree, but it's not flawed to simply say who I thought the best player was each year. And 08 is the only year of Kobe's career I thought he was the best.

[HOoopCityJones]

I'll certainly give you 06-08, but 09-10 are VERY arguable. It's not an "at least" situation.

2003 is arguable as well.

It's funny how it's only arguable when it comes to Bean. Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing, Malone etc. All these guys were putting up monster stats like Jordan in the 90's, probably not as well rounded but they have their own arguments for their respective years. But no one would argue they're better than Jordan.

Again, not saying Kobe is even close to Jordan's level but the things he was doing in this league from 06-10 and even before that as a second option putting up first option numbers, doesn't get the respect it deserves. If Lebron had the career Kobe's had , you all would be calling him The Goat.

[Mr Feeny]

:roll:

I'm so done with the basketball forum.
I feel like I get dumber every-time I decide to visit it.

Great! I'm gonna save this post. Don't let the door hit you on the behind on the way out.
And don't chicken out on your word and come back here!

[jayfan]

Beautiful but that's not what Wade said.
He said that he's stated before and still believes that Kobe is the best player of OUR era (post 2004) BEFORE Lebron's signing with the Heat and the titles. Therefore Wade might believes that Kobe was the best overall player from 2004-2010. Thats all Wade said Great:applause:

Ofcourse we know that then Lebron came along and Duncan had his resurgence and have already overtaken Kobe on the all time list and still climbing, as mentioned in the article you quoted :Lebronamazed:

:whatever:

[DMAVS41]

:roll:

I'm so done with the basketball forum.
I feel like I get dumber every-time I decide to visit it.

The only "dumb" thing would be thinking that Kobe was clearly the best player in any of those years.

[Mr Feeny]

It's funny how it's only arguable when it comes to Bean. Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing, Malone etc. All these guys were putting up monster stats like Jordan in the 90's, probably not as well rounded but they have their own arguments for their respective years. But no one would argue they're better than Jordan.

Again, not saying Kobe is even close to Jordan's level but the things he was doing in this league from 06-10 and even before that as a second option putting up first option number, doesn't get the respect it deserves. If Lebron had the career Kobe's had , you all would be calling him The Goat.

You nailed it. Kobe isnt close to Jordan's level. As far as your last sentence, no. Err if Lebron had Kobe's career he would be on Kobe's exact position (12 best all time or so).

[West-Side]

The only "dumb" thing would be thinking that Kobe was clearly the best player in any of those years.

He was clearly the best basketball player in 2006 & 2007.
This is downright laughable now.

Who was better?
Nash? Duncan? LeBron?

**** out of here.

[riseagainst]

You nailed it. Kobe isnt close to Jordan's level. As far as your last sentence, no. Err if Lebron had Kobe's career he would be on Kobe's exact position (12 best all time or so).


so you are saying Lebron and Kobe are on the same level as players?

[DMAVS41]

It's funny how it's only arguable when it comes to Bean. Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing, Malone etc. All these guys were putting up monster stats like Jordan in the 90's, probably not as well rounded but they have their own arguments for their respective years. But no one would argue they're better than Jordan.

Again, not saying Kobe is even close to Jordan's level but the things he was doing in this league from 06-10 and even before that as a second option putting up first option number, doesn't get the respect it deserves. If Lebron had the career Kobe's had , you all would be calling him The Goat.

Just no.

You even catch yourself. Kobe was nowhere near as dominant as MJ overall or in relation to his peers.

Also, the competition for Kobe was higher in my opinion. Shaq, Duncan, Wade, Lebron, KG, Dirk, Durant, and now Curry.

Given Kobe was demonstrably worse than MJ and his competition was harder...it's hard to separate himself as a player.

[DMAVS41]

He was clearly the best basketball player in 2006 & 2007.
This is downright laughable now.

Who was better?
Nash? Duncan? LeBron?

**** out of here.

You are incredibly biased. Stop acting like it was clear cut...my god.

I had Duncan, Wade, and Dirk over Kobe in 06

In 07 I thought Duncan was the best.

[Mr Feeny]

He was clearly the best basketball player in 2006 & 2007.
This is downright laughable now.

Who was better?
Nash? Duncan? LeBron?

**** out of here.

Thought you said you're done with this forum. Why are you still here?
As far as your questions go, yes Nash and Dirk and maybe Lebron were all better in 06-07. In 2009-2010, Wade and James were miles ahead in the yes of most people.

I don't expect a response. I expect you to be a man of your word and leave.

[HOoopCityJones]

It's not flawed logic at all...you can disagree, and that's fine, but I simply didn't think Kobe was the best player in any of the years you listed other than 08.

How is that flawed logic?

Like I said...you can disagree, but it's not flawed to simply say who I thought the best player was each year. And 08 is the only year of Kobe's career I thought he was the best.

You seem to be implying MVP level play is end all be all. So is Shaq's run only condensed into his single MVP season too or only Kobe? what about Duncan? It's mostly agreed Shaq was the most dominant from 00-02 and the undisputed best player.

I think this double standard you apply to Kobe is unfortunate but like you said it doesn't really matter, it's your opinion to have.

Just have to wonder if Dirk and Kobe traded careers would you still argue 06-10 wasn't his era either, highly fuccing doubt it.

[Mr Feeny]

so you are saying Lebron and Kobe are on the same level as players?How did you get that from what I said? If Lebron was in Kobe's body and averaged Kobe's numbers and gotten his accolades he'd be ranked 12th all time. Yes.

As it is, Lebron is lebron and ranked in the top 8 for a reason.

[HOoopCityJones]

Just no.

You even catch yourself. Kobe was nowhere near as dominant as MJ overall or in relation to his peers.

Also, the competition for Kobe was higher in my opinion. Shaq, Duncan, Wade, Lebron, KG, Dirk, Durant, and now Curry.

Given Kobe was demonstrably worse than MJ and his competition was harder...it's hard to separate himself as a player.

7 Finals appearances in 11 years says he shitted on all of those guys at least once in his career.

I agree the gap was closer between the 00's gang though, just so much talent in that era and that's not even considering like likes of Tmac, Iverson, Carter and Webber.

[DMAVS41]

You seem to be implying MVP level play is end all be all. So is Shaq's run only condensed into his single MVP season too or only Kobe? what about Duncan? It's mostly agreed Shaq was the most dominant from 00-02 and the undisputed best player.

I think this double standard you apply to Kobe is unfortunate but like you said it doesn't really matter, it's your opinion to have.

Just have to wonder if Dirk and Kobe traded careers would you still argue 06-10 wasn't his era either, highly fuccing doubt it.

You keep inserting words I don't use.

I am going off who I thought was the best player each year...that's it. 06-10 is some arbitrary time. Why choose that?

I don't have to look at those 5 years as anything like you do.

If I was doing it...I'd give Shaq/Duncan 99 through 07 because I thought Duncan was clearly better than Kobe during that time and I rank Duncan over Kobe in both 06 and 07.

08 was Kobe's year

And then there were other players that arrived on the scene that I thought were better than Kobe each year after 08.

It's that simple for me...

[Mr Feeny]

You seem to be implying MVP level play is end all be all. So is Shaq's run only condensed into his single MVP season too or only Kobe? what about Duncan? It's mostly agreed Shaq was the most dominant from 00-02 and the undisputed best player.

I think this double standard you apply to Kobe is unfortunate but like you said it doesn't really matter, it's your opinion to have.

Just have to wonder if Dirk and Kobe traded careers would you still argue 06-10 wasn't his era either, highly fuccing doubt it.

You could doubt it all you want. It's what it is.

[WayOfWade]

Perhaps Wade only said Kobe because he's still salty over the Spurs doing him and the Heat dirty in 2014

[DMAVS41]

7 Finals appearances in 11 years says he shitted on all of those guys at least once in his career.

I agree the gap was closer between the 00's gang though, just so much talent in that era and that's not even considering like likes of Tmac, Iverson, Carter and Webber.

Yea, but I'm not talking about titles. Or career accolades...I'm going off who I thought the best player / players were.

Kobe is of course going to be way high up on a career ranking during any time because of his titles...

Which is why he's routinely ranked as a top 10 or so player ever

What more do you guys want? Kobe was great....one of the best ever...he just wasn't clear cut better than some of the elite players of all time and of this era.

[HOoopCityJones]

You could doubt it all you want. It's what it is.

Bruh, it' cute that you keep trying to interject into our convo but I'm honestly not talking to you.

You only come around when it's ripping Kobe time, talk about fuccing rent free. Fucc outta here.

[stalkerforlife]

Publications voting Kobe player of the decade...

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba-news...yant-sg-lakers

"The numbers say...

Bryant: 28.2 points per game, 5.9 rebounds, 5.2 assists, one MVP, four titles
Duncan: 21.2 points per game, 11.7 rebounds, 3.3 assists, two MVPs, three titles

You say...

SportingNews.com voting
Bryant 55%
Duncan 45%"

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...ade-in-the-nba

"He’s not only perfected Jordan’s cobra-like "drive and strike" dribbling style and turnaround fadeaway, he’s added Magic’s junior sky-hook, McHale and Hakeem’s up-and-under move, George Gervin’s finger-roll, Tim Hardaway’s cross-over, Tim Duncan’s bank shot, Reggie Miller’s flailing-leg three point form, and Clyde Drexler’s hand-switching spin move. And he seems to be able to do all of these with either hand."

http://www.nba.com/alldecade/vote13/

http://www.thisis50.com/profiles/blo...century-do-you

TNT, Bleacher report, Dime magazine, sporting news...all have Kobe as the player of the decade. That decade included Duncan and Bran.

[HOoopCityJones]

Yea, but I'm not talking about titles. Or career accolades...I'm going off who I thought the best player / players were.

Kobe is of course going to be way high up on a career ranking during any time because of his titles...

Which is why he's routinely ranked as a top 10 or so player ever

What more do you guys want? Kobe was great....one of the best ever...he just wasn't clear cut better than some of the elite players of all time and of this era.

:biggums: Kobe' torched every single one of the players you're talking about for 30 pts or more and won championships while doing it.

The only ones in the previous era who have a case against him is Shaq and Duncan. No one else is even close.

[HOoopCityJones]

[QUOTE=stalkerforlife]Publications voting Kobe player of the decade...

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba-news...yant-sg-lakers

"The numbers say...

Bryant: 28.2 points per game, 5.9 rebounds, 5.2 assists, one MVP, four titles
Duncan: 21.2 points per game, 11.7 rebounds, 3.3 assists, two MVPs, three titles

You say...

SportingNews.com voting
Bryant 55%
Duncan 45%"

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...ade-in-the-nba

"He

[DMAVS41]

:biggums: Kobe' torched every single one of the players you're talking about for 30 pts or more and won championships while doing it.

The only ones in the previous era who have a case against him is Shaq and Duncan. No one else is even close.

What are you talking about?

What is the previous era?

Are you talking pre 08? Sure...Kobe, based on all the stuff people here care about, was the 3rd best player from 99 through 07 overall.

So what?

[ShawkFactory]

It's funny how it's only arguable when it comes to Bean. Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing, Malone etc. All these guys were putting up monster stats like Jordan in the 90's, probably not as well rounded but they have their own arguments for their respective years. But no one would argue they're better than Jordan.

Again, not saying Kobe is even close to Jordan's level but the things he was doing in this league from 06-10 and even before that as a second option putting up first option number, doesn't get the respect it deserves. If Lebron had the career Kobe's had , you all would be calling him The Goat.
That's the thing: its arguable when it comes to Bean and not Jordan because Bean is not Jordan. It's not "only arguable" because he's disrespected or something. It just IS arguable.

Bron and Wade were playing some historically good basketball in 2009, and Bron again in 2010.

Playing like that, they would have been VERY arguable with Jordan during the second 3peat as well.

[DMAVS41]

You haven't heard? All of this shit only takes significance when referring to Shaq, Bron or Duncan.


When it's said about Kobe we should act like the person saying it was drunk.

So you think Kobe was better than Shaq, Bron, and Duncan?

[stalkerforlife]

You haven't heard? All of this shit only takes significance when referring to Shaq, Bron or Duncan.


When it's said about Kobe we should act like the person saying it was drunk.

I know.

But I am driven to report the truth, regardless of the hate that spreads lies.

I can't help it. I'm just so honest.

[stalkerforlife]

So you think Kobe was better than Shaq, Bron, and Duncan?

Nikka, is you daft?

Kobe is BETTER than all of them. He's had the BETTER CAREER for various reasons.

A player isn't defined by a year or two or three. He is defined by a CAREER.

[West-Side]

You are incredibly biased. Stop acting like it was clear cut...my god.

I had Duncan, Wade, and Dirk over Kobe in 06

In 07 I thought Duncan was the best.

:roll:

35.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG, 48 2PT%, 56 TS%, 28 PER

Dirk: 26.6 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 50 2PT%, 59 TS%, 28.1 PER
Wade: 27.2 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 6.7 APG, 51 2PT%, 58 TS%, 27.6 PER
Duncan: 18.6 PPG, 11 RPG, 3.2 APG, 49 2PT%, 52 TS%, 23.1 PER

The fact that you picked Duncan over Kobe in 2006 shows me everything I need to know about the idiots on this forum.

Kobe scored almost scored DOUBLE the points Duncan did that seaosn while having a higher TS% and PER. Comprehend that for a second.

And in your typical form, you're still swallowing Duncan's jizz.

It doesn't even matter what the numbers says, anyone with a clue knows Kobe was the best basketball player in the world in 2006 & 2007, and no one was really in the discussion.

His scoring ability was out of this world those years and he still contributed 5 rebounds & 5 assists a game with nearly 2 steals on a very respectable efficiency (considering he was a volume scorer).

I think he accumulated more 40 & 50 points games in those two seasons alone than Wade, Dirk & Duncan have in their entire careers.

[Mr Feeny]

Bruh, it' cute that you keep trying to interject into our convo but I'm honestly not talking to you.

You only come around when it's ripping Kobe time, talk about fuccing rent free. Fucc outta here.

Just educating you "breh". Just educating you. Cheerio

[DMAVS41]

Nikka, is you daft?

Kobe is BETTER than all of them. He's had the BETTER CAREER for various reasons.

A player isn't defined by a year or two or three. He id defined by a CAREER.

Ok, good...now we are actually getting to what you believe.

Okay...I think that is demonstrably false. I think Duncan, Shaq, and Lebron were all better players and have had better careers (assuming Lebron continues to play for 5 more years) than Kobe.

Now, we can have that argument...but you guys need to learn to say exactly what you mean.

[Mr Feeny]

:roll:

35.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG, 48 2PT%, 56 TS%, 28 PER

Dirk: 26.6 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 50 2PT%, 59 TS%, 28.1 PER
Wade: 27.2 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 6.7 APG, 51 2PT%, 58 TS%, 27.6 PER
Duncan: 18.6 PPG, 11 RPG, 3.2 APG, 49 2PT%, 52 TS%, 23.1 PER

The fact that you picked Duncan over Kobe in 2006 shows me everything I need to know about the idiots on this forum.

Kobe scored almost scored DOUBLE the points Duncan did that seaosn while having a higher TS% and PER. Comprehend that for a second.

And in your typical form, you're still swallowing Duncan's jizz.

It doesn't even matter what the numbers says, anyone with a clue knows Kobe was the best basketball player in the world in 2006 & 2007, and no one was really in the discussion.

His scoring ability was out of this world those years and he still contributed 5 rebounds & 5 assists a game with nearly 2 steals on a very respectable efficiency (considering he was a volume scorer).

I think he accumulated more 40 & 50 points games in those two seasons alone than Wade, Dirk & Duncan have in their entire careers.

Why are you still here. Thought you'd be a man of your word?

[HOoopCityJones]

So you think Kobe was better than Shaq, Bron, and Duncan?

When you consider winning and the longevity they've had. Duncan and Kobe are 1.a and 1.b. Who's one a depends on what you value.

I wouldn't knock anyone for picking Duncan over Kobe or vice versa.

But as far as All time rankings

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

I'm sorry, I know what Duncan is still doing today , but I can't just ignore that these two had his number most times when they went head to head and Kobe is the only one of the duo to beat him without the other. So...

[stalkerforlife]

:roll:

35.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG, 48 2PT%, 56 TS%, 28 PER

Dirk: 26.6 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 50 2PT%, 59 TS%, 28.1 PER
Wade: 27.2 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 6.7 APG, 51 2PT%, 58 TS%, 27.6 PER
Duncan: 18.6 PPG, 11 RPG, 3.2 APG, 49 2PT%, 52 TS%, 23.1 PER

The fact that you picked Duncan over Kobe in 2006 shows me everything I need to know about the idiots on this forum.

Kobe scored almost scored DOUBLE the points Duncan did that seaosn while having a higher TS% and PER. Comprehend that for a second.

And in your typical form, you're still swallowing Duncan's jizz.

It doesn't even matter what the numbers says, anyone with a clue knows Kobe was the best basketball player in the world in 2006 & 2007, and no one was really in the discussion.

His scoring ability was out of this world those years and he still contributed 5 rebounds & 5 assists a game with nearly 2 steals on a very respectable efficiency (considering he was a volume scorer).

I think he accumulated more 40 & 50 points games in those two seasons alone than Wade, Dirk & Duncan have in their entire careers.

:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

:roll:

35.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG, 48 2PT%, 56 TS%, 28 PER

Dirk: 26.6 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 50 2PT%, 59 TS%, 28.1 PER
Wade: 27.2 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 6.7 APG, 51 2PT%, 58 TS%, 27.6 PER
Duncan: 18.6 PPG, 11 RPG, 3.2 APG, 49 2PT%, 52 TS%, 23.1 PER

The fact that you picked Duncan over Kobe in 2006 shows me everything I need to know about the idiots on this forum.

Kobe scored almost scored DOUBLE the points Duncan did that seaosn while having a higher TS% and PER. Comprehend that for a second.

And in your typical form, you're still swallowing Duncan's jizz.

It doesn't even matter what the numbers says, anyone with a clue knows Kobe was the best basketball player in the world in 2006 & 2007, and no one was really in the discussion.

His scoring ability was out of this world those years and he still contributed 5 rebounds & 5 assists a game with nearly 2 steals on a very respectable efficiency (considering he was a volume scorer).

I think he accumulated more 40 & 50 points games in those two seasons alone than Wade, Dirk & Duncan have in their entire careers.


I care about the playoffs a lot...and those regular season numbers are actually pretty close between Dirk and Wade.

They all beat Kobe in RAPM and they all played better than Kobe in the playoffs.

Again, I'm not saying it's clear...I'm cool with someone taking Kobe, but you are saying it was clear...and posting those numbers above...nothing clear about it.

And you left out playoffs and RAPM...

[Mr Feeny]

I care about the playoffs a lot...and those regular season numbers are actually pretty close between Dirk and Wade.

They all beat Kobe in RAPM and they all played better than Kobe in the playoffs.

Again, I'm not saying it's clear...I'm cool with someone taking Kobe, but you are saying it was clear...and posting those numbers above...nothing clear about it.

And you left out playoffs and RAPM...And PER and win share and Fg%.

[DMAVS41]

When you consider winning and the longevity they've had. Duncan and Kobe are 1.a and 1.b. Who's one a depends on what you value.

I wouldn't knock anyone for picking Duncan over Kobe or vice versa.

But as far as All time rankings

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

I'm sorry, I know what Duncan is still doing today , but I can't just ignore that these two had his number most times when they went head to head and Kobe is the only one of the duo to beat him without the other. So...

I think that is a really flawed way of looking at something...especially when Shaq/Kobe were on the same team for most of those series.

But you are talking career rankings...I am talking about who the actual best player was / is.

[HOoopCityJones]

I care about the playoffs a lot...and those regular season numbers are actually pretty close between Dirk and Wade.

They all beat Kobe in RAPM and they all played better than Kobe in the playoffs.

Again, I'm not saying it's clear...I'm cool with someone taking Kobe, but you are saying it was clear...and posting those numbers above...nothing clear about it.

And you left out playoffs and RAPM...

Cherry picking a metric as the scale tipper is so ****ing cheap bro. This is why i'd never register with RealGM, I bet most debates go like this.

[HOoopCityJones]

I think that is a really flawed way of looking at something...especially when Shaq/Kobe were on the same team for most of those series.

But you are talking career rankings...I am talking about who the actual best player was / is.


:biggums:

I clearly referred to both.

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:

I clearly referred to both.

So you think Kobe is a better player than Lebron and Shaq and Duncan...just on level of play?

[DMAVS41]

Cherry picking a metric as the scale tipper is so ****ing cheap bro. This is why i'd never register with RealGM, I bet most debates go like this.

Cherry picking?

I just said he didn't put it in.

How is this for cherry picking....playoffs:

Duncan 26/11/3 63% TS 30.4 PER
Wade 28/6/6 59% TS 26.9 PER
Dirk 27/12/3 60% TS 26.8 PER


Kobe 28/6/5 59% TS 19.9 PER


Yep...they just weren't on Kobe's level...even though the advanced metrics all put them there in the regular season and they clearly outplayed him in the playoffs.

But it's not close...

[ralph_i_el]

Cherry picking?

I just said he didn't put it in.

How is this for cherry picking....playoffs:

Duncan 26/11/3 63% TS 30.4 PER
Wade 28/6/6 59% TS 26.9 PER
Dirk 27/12/3 60% TS 26.8 PER


Kobe 28/6/5 59% TS 19.9 PER


Yep...they just weren't on Kobe's level...even though the advanced metrics all put them there in the regular season and they clearly outplayed him in the playoffs.

But it's not close...



:applause: :applause: :applause: Chucking on a bad team in the regular season doesn't make you the best player in the league.

[HOoopCityJones]

:applause: :applause: :applause: Chucking on a bad team in the regular season doesn't make you the best player in the league.

So why ya'll act like Lebron's 2015 Finals is so legendary? :biggums:

[West-Side]

I care about the playoffs a lot...and those regular season numbers are actually pretty close between Dirk and Wade.

They all beat Kobe in RAPM and they all played better than Kobe in the playoffs.

Again, I'm not saying it's clear...I'm cool with someone taking Kobe, but you are saying it was clear...and posting those numbers above...nothing clear about it.

And you left out playoffs and RAPM...

27.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.1 APG, 53 2PT%, 59 TS%
Almost helped his team beat the heavily favored Suns team.

Game winning shot in overtime.
50 point game in game 6.

He was averaging 35/7/7 before game 7.
He had like 20 points at half time and LA were down by over 30 I believe.
Everyone but Kobe choked in that series.

Wade: 28.4 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.7 APG, 51 2PT%, 59 TS%
Dirk: 27 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 2.9 APG, 49 2PT%, 60 TS%

Kobe put up the following stats in all 3 losses to Phoenix, yet people still blame him for "choking" and not his pathetic teams.

Game 5 - 29-7-5 (10 for 17)
Game 6 - 50-8-5 (20 for 35)
Game 7 - 24-4-1 (8 for 16)

Kobe scored most of his 24 points in the 1st half against Phoenix. The Suns still led by over 20 points [they were up over 30 before half time]. Kobe tried to get his teams going in the 2nd half but they continued to fail him.

Just to give you an indication;

His teammates shot 24 for 75 in game 7.
That's 32%.
Kobe shot 50%, and he was shooting nearly 75% before half-time I believe.

His team completely failed him that series.
He had a great game 5 & 6; LA even had the lead with 30 seconds left before LA allowed an offensive rebound and Tim Thomas got off a 3 to tie the game (and send it to overtime).

[catch24]

Here's what I don't get.

People call the 90s the Jordan era, right? From 1990-1993, MJ had the best stats, advanced numbers, etc. Dude was retired from 1994-1995 (basically) and Hakeem was considered the best player those two seasons. From 1996-1998, Jordan's stats rivaled peak Kobe's (literally) and yet he was STILL called the BEST in the game...despite having worse advanced numbers (VORP, BPM and PER) than the likes of Shaq, Robinson and Malone.

So if not for championships, how was 1996-1998 Jordan the best player in the game? How were the ENTIRE 90s Jordan's era if, statistically, he was only clear-cut from 1990-93?

I personally don't subscribe to the "all stats" nonsense like posters do with the Kobe vs LeBron/Wade/Duncan talk, so I'm kind of interested to see anybody that DOES explain the CLEAR double-standard here.

[DMAVS41]

27.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.1 APG, 53 2PT%, 59 TS%
Almost helped his team beat the heavily favored Suns team.

Game winning shot in overtime.
50 point game in game 6.

He was averaging 35/7/7 before game 7.
He had like 20 points at half time and LA were down by over 30 I believe.
Everyone but Kobe choked in that series.

Wade: 28.4 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.7 APG, 51 2PT%, 59 TS%
Dirk: 27 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 2.9 APG, 49 2PT%, 60 TS%

Kobe put up the following stats in all 3 losses to Phoenix, yet people still blame him for "choking" and not his pathetic teams.

Game 5 - 29-7-5 (10 for 17)
Game 6 - 50-8-5 (20 for 35)
Game 7 - 24-4-1 (8 for 16)

Kobe scored most of his 24 points in the 1st half against Phoenix. The Suns still led by over 20 points [they were up over 30 before half time]. Kobe tried to get his teams going in the 2nd half but they continued to fail him.

Just to give you an indication;

His teammates shot 24 for 75 in game 7.
That's 32%.
Kobe shot 50%, and he was shooting nearly 75% before half-time I believe.

His team completely failed him that series.
He had a great game 5 & 6; LA even had the lead with 30 seconds left before LA allowed an offensive rebound and Tim Thomas got off a 3 to tie the game (and send it to overtime).


He was worse than Duncan, Wade, and Dirk in the playoffs. Simple as that...and even on some of the limited stuff you posted...he did not separate himself in the regular season. Iverson scored 33 a game in 06...why isn't he on your list?

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe might just be the best player from 2006-2008.. why not, great argument.

For the totality of the 2006 season though, I'd take Dirk.. yes a Dirk fan, but he too, has an enormous case.

edit:


Here's what I don't get.

People call the 90s the Jordan era, right? From 1990-1993, MJ had the best stats, advanced numbers, etc. Dude was retired from 1994-1995 (basically) and Hakeem was considered the best player those two seasons. From 1996-1998, Jordan's stats rivaled peak Kobe's (literally) and yet he was STILL called the BEST in the game...despite having worse advanced numbers (VORP, BPM and PER) than the likes of Shaq, Robinson and Malone.

So if not for championships, how was 1996-1998 Jordan the best player in the game? How were the ENTIRE 90s Jordan's era if, statistically, he was only clear-cut from 1990-93?

I personally don't subscribe to the "all stats" nonsense like posters do with the Kobe vs LeBron/Wade/Duncan talk, so I'm kind of interested to see anybody that DOES explain the CLEAR double-standard here.

I think he was relatively clearly the best in 1996 and 1997, but you're right about 1998, there is no way I'm taking 35 year old MJ over prime Shaq having a beastly season.

[stalkerforlife]

Quick question...did Duncan ever have to play for Mike Brown and Byron Scott? Did Duncan ever have Kwame, Smush, and Walton in his starting lineup?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[DMAVS41]

Here's what I don't get.

People call the 90s the Jordan era, right? From 1990-1993, MJ had the best stats, advanced numbers, etc. Dude was retired from 1994-1995 (basically) and Hakeem was considered the best player those two seasons. From 1996-1998, Jordan's stats rivaled peak Kobe's (literally) and yet he was STILL called the BEST in the game...despite having worse advanced numbers (VORP, BPM and PER) than the likes of Shaq, Robinson and Malone.

So if not for championships, how was 1996-1998 Jordan the best player in the game? How were the ENTIRE 90s Jordan's era if, statistically, he was only clear-cut from 1990-93?

I personally don't subscribe to the "all stats" nonsense like posters do with the Kobe vs LeBron/Wade/Duncan talk, so I'm kind of interested to see anybody that DOES explain the CLEAR double-standard here.

You have to look at the competition....Shaq hadn't really put it all together yet and was hurt in 97. And Hakeem had dipped...and are you really going to take Robinson or Malone over Jordan?

Also, you are under-rating 96 Jordan...he was clearly better than any version of Kobe imo.

But look at Kobe's competition...it's peak Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Wade, KG, Dirk, Durant...etc. That's simply better than what MJ was going up against in 97 and 98.

[DMAVS41]

Quick question...did Duncan ever have to play for Mike Brown and Byron Scott? Did Duncan ever have Kwame, Smush, and Walton in his starting lineup?

Inquiring minds want to know!

I don't see the relevance, but if you think Kobe isn't in part to blame for those situations....no point in discussing with you.

One area where Duncan has a huge edge on Kobe is being a great teammate and a guy that is willing to play any role his team needs.

[ArbitraryWater]

You have to look at the competition....Shaq hadn't really put it all together yet. And Hakeem had dipped...and are you really going to take Robinson or Malone over Jordan?

Also, you are under-rating 96 Jordan...he was clearly better than any version of Kobe imo.

But look at Kobe's competition...it's peak Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Wade, KG, Dirk, Durant...etc. That's simply better than what MJ was going up against in 97 and 98.

when was it ever peak Shaq? Kobe wasn't really in contention for best player when Shaq peaked, and neither when Durant did... it was peak Dirk/Nash, peak-prime KG/Wade, and prime Bron...

[Mr Feeny]

Here's what I don't get.

People call the 90s the Jordan era, right? From 1990-1993, MJ had the best stats, advanced numbers, etc. Dude was retired from 1994-1995 (basically) and Hakeem was considered the best player those two seasons. From 1996-1998, Jordan's stats rivaled peak Kobe's (literally) and yet he was STILL called the BEST in the game...despite having worse advanced numbers (VORP, BPM and PER) than the likes of Shaq, Robinson and Malone.

So if not for championships, how was 1996-1998 Jordan the best player in the game? How were the ENTIRE 90s Jordan's era if, statistically, he was only clear-cut from 1990-93?

I personally don't subscribe to the "all stats" nonsense like posters do with the Kobe vs LeBron/Wade/Duncan talk, so I'm kind of interested to see anybody that DOES explain the CLEAR double-standard here.

For starters Jordan shot the ball much better. Had a higher PER, RAPM, higher Win shares, was a better defender even in his second 3 peat than peak Kobe in my opinion, lead his teams to 72 wins. 69 wins, and then almost single handedly took the injury ravaged 98 Bulls to 62 wins.

That's not even mentioning the playoffs and all the game winning shots, championship clinching defensive plays and shots, and legendary performances at the highest level (Flu game).

If you really can't see the difference, I'm not sue you and I can even have an argument. Kobe - even at his peak - was nowhere near Jordan.

Nonetheless if you want to believe that Jordan was only 2nd best during the 2nd three peat when his numbers weren't as dominant as they were in his first run then Jordan has 4 seasons as number one player (90-93) and 3 seasons as the second best. I'd say that it's his decade.

[catch24]

You have to look at the competition....Shaq hadn't really put it all together yet. And Hakeem had dipped...and are you really going to take Robinson or Malone over Jordan?

How is that any different than saying, "Are you really going to take Wade, LeBron and Dirk over Kobe from 2006-2010?"

Robinson and Malone had better numbers across the board, and THE only difference is the Bulls team was loaded.

But again...I'm not subscribing to this logic. I just want to know HOW that is ANY different than what's being said here with Kobe?


Also, you are under-rating 96 Jordan...he was clearly better than any version of Kobe imo.

Statistically? Nope.

[West-Side]

He was worse than Duncan, Wade, and Dirk in the playoffs. Simple as that...and even on some of the limited stuff you posted...he did not separate himself in the regular season. Iverson scored 33 a game in 06...why isn't he on your list?

Hey guys, this moron just said this yep.

Duncan: 18.6 PPG on 52 TS%
Kobe: 35.4 PPG on 56 TS%

To him (the Duncan dick sucker), that's not separating himself from Duncan.
Kobe was far more effective and aesthetically pleasing as a scorer in 2006. He was far more creative and versatile than Iverson.

This is a joke right?

Iverson: 33 PPG, .465 2PT%, .543 TS%, 25.9 PER

Kobe scored more while having a higher 2PT%, FG%, and TS%.
He also had more rebounds a game and higher overall PER.

Iverson was a top 5/6 player that season though.
He just wasn't as prolific of a scorer.

He also went to the line 1.3 times more a game than Kobe did.
Despite that advantage he still has a LOWER TS%.

Next question?

[stalkerforlife]

Hey guys, this moron just said this yep.

Duncan: 18.6 PPG on 52 TS%
Kobe: 35.4 PPG on 56 TS%

To him (the Duncan dick sucker), that's not separating himself from Duncan.
Kobe was far more effective and aesthetically pleasing as a scorer in 2006. He was far more creative and versatile than Iverson.

This is a joke right?

Iverson: 33 PPG, .465 2PT%, .543 TS%, 25.9 PER

Kobe scored more while having a higher 2PT%, FG%, and TS%.
He also had more rebounds a game and higher overall PER.

Iverson was a top 5/6 player that season though.
He just wasn't as prolific of a scorer.

He also went to the line 1.3 times more a game than Kobe did.
Despite that advantage he still has a LOWER TS%.

Next question?

http://i.imgur.com/ByQSoLU.gif

[catch24]

For starters Jordan shot the ball much better. Had a higher PER, RAPM, higher Win shares, was a better defender even in his second 3 peat than peak Kobe in my opinion, lead his teams to 72 wins. 69 wins, and then almost single handedly took the injury ravaged 98 Bulls to 62 wins.

They're extremely close, that is what I meant by his stats "rivaling" Jordan's. Kobe's raw numbers (PPG, RPG, AST and FG%) look nearly identitcal to Jordan's in the playoffs those years.


If you really can't see the difference, I'm not sue you and I can even have an argument. Kobe - even at his peak - was nowhere near Jordan.

I see the difference, but its not a huge one. Peak Kobe and second 3-peat Kobe are essentially the same tier of player.

[DMAVS41]

How is that any different than saying, "Are you really going to take Wade, LeBron and Dirk over Kobe from 2006-2010?"

Robinson and Malone had better numbers across the board, and THE only difference is the Bulls were loaded.

Again...I'm not subscribing to this logic, but how is that ANY different than what's being said here with Kobe?



Statistically? Nope.

When did this become about only 06 through 10 for starters?


But it's not the same because Jordan was clearly the best player in 96 and then it's 97 and 98 where you could speak like you are

But in 97 and 98...MJ didn't have the kind of competition Kobe had during those years.

If 09 and 10 Lebron was playing in the league in 97 and 98...people would not give it to MJ the way they do now.


Statistically? Based on what? Only raw numbers or something? MJ in 96 trumps Kobe on pretty much every statistical measure. 06 is probably Kobe's best year for stats...MJ beats him on PER, TS, WS, ws/48, dws, obpm, dbpm, vorp, ortg, drtg....

So...yea...not close

[ArbitraryWater]

They are extremely close, that is what I meant by Kobe's stats rivaling Jordan's. Kobe's raw numbers (PPG, RPG, AST and FG%) look nearly identitcal to Jordan's in the playoffs those years.



I see the difference, but its not a huge one. Peak Kobe and second 3-peat Kobe are essentially the same tier of player.

there never was a second 3-peat :D

Nah, but not for me though.. while 2010 Kobe was still elite, you could see him declining somewhere at the half way mark of the regular season. Didn't it look like he would put up an even better year than 2009 to start it?

2006-2008 get the edge for me on Kobe. Those years combined with 2003 are his best IMO, next up '01/'09/'10, and '01 is probably up next, for me at least. Very young, but the year he came into his own as a Superstar. FroBe, while in the regular season there were trade talks designed by Phil Jackson, he lit up the West in the playoffs :pimp:

You think 2001 has an argument as Kobe's best version? Could there be an argument? He was the 3rd best player in the NBA.

edit:

^ 2009/2010 Bron is GOAT caliber. He can be in talks with peak MJ.

[Wade's Rings]

Hey guys, this moron just said this yep.

Duncan: 18.6 PPG on 52 TS%
Kobe: 35.4 PPG on 56 TS%

To him (the Duncan dick sucker), that's not separating himself from Duncan.
Kobe was far more effective and aesthetically pleasing as a scorer in 2006. He was far more creative and versatile than Iverson.

This is a joke right?

Iverson: 33 PPG, .465 2PT%, .543 TS%, 25.9 PER

Kobe scored more while having a higher 2PT%, FG%, and TS%.
He also had more rebounds a game and higher overall PER.

Iverson was a top 5/6 player that season though.
He just wasn't as prolific of a scorer.

He also went to the line 1.3 times more a game than Kobe did.
Despite that advantage he still has a LOWER TS%.

Next question?

If you think Kobe was the clearly the best in 2006 & 2007, how was eh the best in 2009 or 2010?

[HOoopCityJones]

They're extremely close, that is what I meant by his stats "rivaling" Jordan's. Kobe's raw numbers (PPG, RPG, AST and FG%) look nearly identitcal to Jordan's in the playoffs those years.



I see the difference, but its not a huge one. Peak Kobe and second 3-peat Kobe are essentially the same tier of player.

That's what it boils down to, you should just be able to say Jordan and not even factor in the numbers difference. Do the same for Kobe and you're a worthless Kobe stan.

Kobe should change his nickname from Black Mamba to Double Standard because Kareem is considered the second most likely GOAT playing next to two of the greatest PGs of all time, one who's considered the greatest ever and another who was once considered the greatest player ever before Jordan came around.

Peak Shaq and Pau Gasol is enough to make Kobe fall damn near out the Top 10.

[DMAVS41]

Hey guys, this moron just said this yep.

Duncan: 18.6 PPG on 52 TS%
Kobe: 35.4 PPG on 56 TS%

To him (the Duncan dick sucker), that's not separating himself from Duncan.
Kobe was far more effective and aesthetically pleasing as a scorer in 2006. He was far more creative and versatile than Iverson.

This is a joke right?

Iverson: 33 PPG, .465 2PT%, .543 TS%, 25.9 PER

Kobe scored more while having a higher 2PT%, FG%, and TS%.
He also had more rebounds a game and higher overall PER.

Iverson was a top 5/6 player that season though.
He just wasn't as prolific of a scorer.

He also went to the line 1.3 times more a game than Kobe did.
Despite that advantage he still has a LOWER TS%.

Next question?

There is this thing called defense...you know...Duncan beats Kobe in RAPM...easily the best metric we have for this stuff.

Dunan was a 19/11/3 defensive monster that was actually anchoring his teams elite and number 1 ranked defense.

Sorry if I value that more than Kobe's scoring....

And again...you have no response for the playoffs.

But Kobe was clearly better than Wade, Dirk, and Duncan...right?

Oh...and if we are going all stats...why don't you have Lebron better than Kobe in 06?

Lebron beasts Kobe on PER, TS%, ws/48, bpm, and worp

So how was Kobe better than Lebron on your idiotic line of thinking?

[ShawkFactory]

That's what it boils down to, you should just be able to say Jordan and not even factor in the numbers difference. Do the same for Kobe and you're a worthless Kobe stan.

Kobe should change his nickname from Black Mamba to Double Standard because Kareem is considered the second most likely GOAT playing next to two of the greatest PGs of all time, one who's considered the greatest ever and another who was once considered the greatest player ever before Jordan came around.

Peak Shaq and Pau Gasol is enough to make Kobe fall damn near ou the Top 10.
This happens to every great player of this era. Just because Kobe is the one you like, and thus notice it more, doesn't make him unique.

[stalkerforlife]

There is this thing called defense...you know...Duncan beats Kobe in RAPM...easily the best metric we have for this stuff.

Dunan was a 19/11/3 defensive monster that was actually anchoring his teams elite and number 1 ranked defense.

Sorry if I value that more than Kobe's scoring....

And again...you have no response for the playoffs.

But Kobe was clearly better than Wade, Dirk, and Duncan...right?

Oh...and if we are going all stats...why don't you have Lebron better than Kobe in 06?

Lebron beasts Kobe on PER, TS%, ws/48, bpm, and worp

So how was Kobe better than Lebron on your idiotic line of thinking?

Why don't those things get players more rings? The ultimate goal.

You don't even know what they mean. You just blindly follow arbitrary stats to fit your agenda. You can't even calculate them.

[ArbitraryWater]

If you think Kobe was the clearly the best in 2006 & 2007, how was eh the best in 2009 or 2010?

He clearly can't be both...

playing wise and statistically LeBron blows everything away in 2009 and 2010, you can't nitpick his game 5 performance, and then gloss over Kobe's second half of game 7... ability wise they were both top level, how much quitting was in there is left to be discussed, but it doesn't really matter... one bad game meant their team was getting rolled over, and those games were evidence of that. Don't take it against them much.

yeah look at where Kobe got them, also look how many games Bron won with that Cleveland team. Zero chance in hell Kobe does that. Robinson and Bron pulled off some of the most impressive season lasting carrying jobs ever, winning 60+ games with minimal talent, only 2007 Dirk did the same with his uber impact/shooting/spacing, and he did so in an overall weaker NBA.

[DMAVS41]

That's what it boils down to, you should just be able to say Jordan and not even factor in the numbers difference. Do the same for Kobe and you're a worthless Kobe stan.

Kobe should change his nickname from Black Mamba to Double Standard because Kareem is considered the second most likely GOAT playing next to two of the greatest PGs of all time, one who's considered the greatest ever and another who was once considered the greatest player ever before Jordan came around.

Peak Shaq and Pau Gasol is enough to make Kobe fall damn near out the Top 10.

But this isn't accurate. You guys think 96 Jordan wasn't easily better than any version of Kobe, but he was...both from the eye test and from stats.

That is problem number 1 for you...you are equating Kobe and Jordan that year.

Also, the level of competition was simply different. Nobody would be saying 97 and 98 MJ was clearly better than 09 and 10 Lebron, for example...

So it's not what it boils down to. You guys fail to realize just how good MJ still was in 96 and then think Kobe had separated himself from others like MJ did...but he never did that.

[HOoopCityJones]

This happens to every great player of this era. Just because Kobe is the one you like, and thus notice it more, doesn't make him unique.

Aside from Lebron, who else does this happen to? And stop trying to make my advocacy for applying non sense double standards logic to these discussions out to be some man crush.

I'm seriously wondering why Bird and Magic played with 3 or four HoF each and are considered Top 5. Or why Wilt clearly better stats than Jordan and he's not considered the Goat unless it's by old timers.

[DMAVS41]

Why don't those things get players more rings? The ultimate goal.

You don't even know what they mean. You just blindly follow arbitrary stats to fit your agenda. You can't even calculate them.

You guys can't do this. You can't argue only stats...which I don't do. And then flip flop now.

Did you see me list Lebron over Kobe in 06? Nope...want to know why? Because those stats don't mean much to me. Kobe was better than Lebron in 06...but if we go by stats...Lebron was better.

So you...you are the one that is blindly following an agenda and aren't consistent at all.

Also, how did Kobe do in the playoffs in 06? I'd be careful using the "rings" argument in 06 when Kobe wet the bed in a game 7 and his team blew a 3-1 lead.

[ArbitraryWater]

That's what it boils down to, you should just be able to say Jordan and not even factor in the numbers difference. Do the same for Kobe and you're a worthless Kobe stan.

Kobe should change his nickname from Black Mamba to Double Standard because Kareem is considered the second most likely GOAT playing next to two of the greatest PGs of all time, one who's considered the greatest ever and another who was once considered the greatest player ever before Jordan came around.

Peak Shaq and Pau Gasol is enough to make Kobe fall damn near out the Top 10.

You're broad, either on purpose or just dumb. You're the perfect ESPN viewer, really. Don't wanna get that head thinking too much.

[Wade's Rings]

Why don't those things get players more rings? The ultimate goal.

You don't even know what they mean. You just blindly follow arbitrary stats to fit your agenda. You can't even calculate them.

West-side was using advanced stats and you were propping him up but because Dmavs does does it, it's arbitrary?

[DMAVS41]

He clearly can't be both...

playing wise and statistically LeBron blows everything away in 2009 and 2010, you can't nitpick his game 5 performance, and then gloss over Kobe's second half of game 7... ability wise they were both top level, how much quitting was in there is left to be discussed, but it doesn't really matter... one bad game meant their team was getting rolled over, and those games were evidence of that. Don't take it against them much.

yeah look at where Kobe got them, also look how many games Bron won with that Cleveland team. Zero chance in hell Kobe does that. Robinson and Bron pulled off some of the most impressive season lasting carrying jobs ever, winning 60+ games with minimal talent, only 2007 Dirk did the same with his uber impact/shooting/spacing, and he did so in an overall weaker NBA.

Exactly....at least a few get it.

This is the conundrum for the Kobe fan.

[Doranku]

I absolutely love when people use these made-up stats to back up their arguments even though they have absolutely zero idea how the stat is calculated.

F*cking mindless sheep. :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

Hey guys, this moron just said this yep.

Duncan: 18.6 PPG on 52 TS%
Kobe: 35.4 PPG on 56 TS%

To him (the Duncan dick sucker), that's not separating himself from Duncan.
Kobe was far more effective and aesthetically pleasing as a scorer in 2006. He was far more creative and versatile than Iverson.

This is a joke right?

Iverson: 33 PPG, .465 2PT%, .543 TS%, 25.9 PER

Kobe scored more while having a higher 2PT%, FG%, and TS%.
He also had more rebounds a game and higher overall PER.

Iverson was a top 5/6 player that season though.
He just wasn't as prolific of a scorer.

He also went to the line 1.3 times more a game than Kobe did.
Despite that advantage he still has a LOWER TS%.

Next question?

Watch your mouth and show some respect to the guy. You belligerent bellend.

[lakers_forever]

Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Lebron. The four greatest post Jordan. No one else comes close. You can pick any of those 4 and you will not be wrong. No matter how many posts you write, no matter how many lol's, in the end there are arguments for each one of them. No wonder they are IMO 4 of the top 10 greatest players of all time.

[West-Side]

When did this become about only 06 through 10 for starters?


But it's not the same because Jordan was clearly the best player in 96 and then it's 97 and 98 where you could speak like you are

But in 97 and 98...MJ didn't have the kind of competition Kobe had during those years.

If 09 and 10 Lebron was playing in the league in 97 and 98...people would not give it to MJ the way they do now.


Statistically? Based on what? Only raw numbers or something? MJ in 96 trumps Kobe on pretty much every statistical measure. 06 is probably Kobe's best year for stats...MJ beats him on PER, TS, WS, ws/48, dws, obpm, dbpm, vorp, ortg, drtg....

So...yea...not close

96' Jordan: 30.4 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 4.3 APG, .506 2PT%, .582 TS%
97' Jordan: 29.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 4.3 APG, .507 2PT%, .567 TS%
98' Jordan: 28.7 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, .482 2PT%, .533 TS%


07' Kobe: 31.6 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.4 APG, .497 2PT%, .580 TS%
08' Kobe: 28.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.4 APG, .490 2PT%, .576 TS%
09' Kobe: 26.8 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG, .496 2PT%, .561 TS%


But according to this guy, 07' Duncan was better than 07' Kobe.
Yet Kobe's 07' production resembles 96' Jordan.

It's moronic to compare advanced stats across two players from completely different era's with completely different rules. I've already showed you guys how Kobe stacks up to Jordan when we consider league averages. The difference still favors Jordan (as he is the GOAT) but Kobe's numbers look a lot closer once you adjust their #'s for league averages.

To clarify something; you think 07' Duncan would be comparable to 96' Jordan correct?
Seeing as those how closely Kobe resembles 96' Jordan.

[West-Side]

If you think Kobe was the clearly the best in 2006 & 2007, how was eh the best in 2009 or 2010?

I think Kobe was clearly the best in 2006, 2007 & 2008.
In 2009 & 2010 it is debatable and I'm leaning towards saying no (for 2010).

For 2009, I think he was still the best in the world (but I won't be so close minded as I am for 2006 & 2007).

[DMAVS41]

96' Jordan: 30.4 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 4.3 APG, .506 2PT%, .582 TS%
97' Jordan: 29.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 4.3 APG, .507 2PT%, .567 TS%
98' Jordan: 28.7 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, .482 2PT%, .533 TS%


07' Kobe: 31.6 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.4 APG, .497 2PT%, .580 TS%
08' Kobe: 28.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.4 APG, .490 2PT%, .576 TS%
09' Kobe: 26.8 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG, .496 2PT%, .561 TS%


But according to this guy, 07' Duncan was better than 07' Kobe.
Yet Kobe's 07' production resembles 96' Jordan.

It's moronic to compare advanced stats across two players from completely different era's with completely different rules. I've already showed you guys how Kobe stacks up to Jordan when we consider league averages. The difference still favors Jordan (as he is the GOAT) but Kobe's numbers look a lot closer once you adjust their #'s for league averages.

To clarify something; you think 07' Duncan would be comparable to 96' Jordan correct?
Seeing as those how closely Kobe resembles 96' Jordan.

Raw stats just aren't going to get you anywhere.

96 MJ vs 07 Kobe, just on stats, is a landslide in favor of MJ...I just posted all the stuff. MJ destroys him...

I don't care to argue it stats wise because it was obvious to anyone watching them both play.

And I ask again...why don't you have Lebron as better than Kobe in these years? Because his stats are better.

Also, Duncan in 07 was a ****ing monster. You clearly were not watching back then if you think it's controversial to have him as the best player.

[catch24]

When did this become about only 06 through 10 for starters?

But it's not the same because Jordan was clearly the best player in 96 and then it's 97 and 98 where you could speak like you are

Why? He had a worse RAPM than Malone, Shaq, and Robinson. Worse VORP and worse BPM than those guys too.

:confusedshrug:


Statistically? Based on what? Only raw numbers or something? MJ in 96 trumps Kobe on pretty much every statistical measure. 06 is probably Kobe's best year for stats...MJ beats him on PER, TS, WS, ws/48, dws, obpm, dbpm, vorp, ortg, drtg....

Kobe beats him PPG, AST and some of the other numbers are close (PER, TS, WS). The point is, as players, they're extremely close and can easily be comparable.

To say its not close is silly. Doesn't even make sense, tbh.


there never was a second 3-peat :D

Nah, but not for me though.. while 2010 Kobe was still elite, you could see him declining somewhere at the half way mark of the regular season. Didn't it look like he would put up an even better year than 2009 to start it?

2006-2008 get the edge for me on Kobe. Those years combined with 2003 are his best IMO, next up '01/'09/'10, and '01 is probably up next, for me at least. Very young, but the year he came into his own as a Superstar. FroBe, while in the regular season there were trade talks designed by Phil Jackson, he lit up the West in the playoffs :pimp:

I would normally agree.

2006-2008 was clearly Kobe, while 2009 and 2010 are most likely LeBron's years. IMO, Wade's rationale behind calling Kobe "the greatest of their era" were the 2 extra championships from 2009-2010 (and elite play).


You think 2001 has an argument as Kobe's best version? Could there be an argument? He was the 3rd best player in the NBA.

Nah. He was too sporadic and wild. Similar to 2004, Kobe had issues with this his teammates. It wasn't until the playoffs where he turned a new leaf and decided to play team ball, which ironically enough, made him even greater and more "dangerous" than in his touted regular-season.

Its definitely an underrated playoff run, and probably in his top 3-5, but I don't view that Kobe near the 2006-2008 versions.


2009/2010 Bron is GOAT caliber. He can be in talks with peak MJ.

2006-2008 Kobe and 2009-2010 LeBron going H2H with peak MJ would have been interesting to see. The battle of the


That's what it boils down to, you should just be able to say Jordan and not even factor in the numbers difference. Do the same for Kobe and you're a worthless Kobe stan.

Kobe should change his nickname from Black Mamba to Double Standard because Kareem is considered the second most likely GOAT playing next to two of the greatest PGs of all time, one who's considered the greatest ever and another who was once considered the greatest player ever before Jordan came around.

Peak Shaq and Pau Gasol is enough to make Kobe fall damn near out the Top 10.

Yup. Its pretty crazy how some of these people aren't willing to acknowledge the inherent double-standard here.

Jordan doesn't have the advanced stats to back up his greatness? All good.
With Kobe though? Thats it. The guy is overrated and there's nothing else to be debated.

[DMAVS41]

Why? He had a worse RAPM than Malone, Shaq, and Robinson. Worse VORP and worse BPM than those guys too.

:confusedshrug:



Kobe beats him PPG, AST and some of rest of the numbers are close (PER, TS, WS). The point is, as players, they're extremely close and can easily be comparable.

To say its not close is silly. Doesn't even make sense, tbh.



I would normally agree.

2006-2008 was clearly Kobe, while 2009 and 2010 are most likely LeBron's years. IMO, Wade's rationale behind calling Kobe "the greatest of their era" were the 2 extra championships from 2009-2010 (and elite play).



Nah. He was too sporadic and wild. Similar to 2004, Kobe had issues with this his teammates. It wasn't until the playoffs where he turned a new leaf and decided to play team ball, which ironically enough, made him even greater and more "dangerous" than in his touted regular-season.

Its definitely an underrated playoff run, and probably in his top 3-5, but I don't view that Kobe near the 2006-2008 versions.



2006-2008 Kobe and 2009-2010 LeBron going H2H with peak MJ would have been interesting to see. The battle of the titans. :pimp:

We don't have RAPM actually for those years...it's xrapm and just a guess.

I'm not making the argument using only stats. If I were...I'd say Lebron was better than Kobe in 06.

You seem very confused...you made the argument that MJ and Kobe were similar statistically...and that is just false...which forces me to use stats.

That doesn't, in turn, mean that I am forced to say Robinson was better than MJ because in certain stats he outperforms him.

It is not me working off the double standard here...it's the people that use stats to say Kobe was the best in 06 or 07, but then also claim he was the best in 09 and 10.

That is the conundrum for Kobe fans.

Again, my bringing up MJ's advanced stats was in response to your false claim about Kobe being on par with 96 MJ.

I don't care to debate whether or not Robinson or MJ was better in 96...it's just stupid.



And again, the double standard is with you guys...or anyone acting that way. I'm not using stats the way you claim I am...and I've repeatedly explained to you the difference in competition you fail to grasp. It's not a double standard to say that if MJ was going up against 09 and 10 Lebron...he wouldn't be considered the best player either. That is actually perfectly logical...

And what are you talking about MJ not having the advanced stats? In 96 he blows any version of Kobe out of the water on advanced stats...LOL

[catch24]

We don't have RAPM actually for those years...it's xrapm and just a guess.

xRAPM and RPM are basically the same thing, or so other posters have claimed.

RPM is the only form of rapm ESPN uses currently...so


I'm not making the argument using only stats. If I were...I'd say Lebron was better than Kobe in 06.

What else is it then?


You seem very confused...you made the argument that MJ and Kobe were similar statistically...and that is just false...which forces me to use stats.

They are similar statistically. Just because Jordan has the edge doesn't mean they aren't close.


That doesn't, in turn, mean that I am forced to say Robinson was better than MJ because in certain stats he outperforms him.

But if NOT for those stats, what else is it? Winshares, what MJ has in his favor, are heavily dependent on team play. Just like raw +/-

[DMAVS41]

xRAPM and RPM are basically the same thing, or so other posters have claimed.

RPM is the only form of RAPM ESPN uses currently...so



Than what else is it?



They are similar statistically. Just because Jordan has the edge doesn't mean they aren't close.



But if for those stats, what else is it?

xrapm and rapm are not basically the same thing. RPM is ESPN's new formula and they don't have it for more than a few years now iirc.

i reject your statement that they are similar stats wise in 96 for MJ and any version of Kobe, but don't care to debate that.

what do you mean...if it's not stats? it's from watching the NBA for years upon years and evaluating who I think is the best. if, i was really high or low on a player...and the objective measures disagree with my take...then I'll evaluate my opinion.

Why do I think MJ was better than Robinson in 96? Because I watched all the games and thought MJ was better...why does it have to be harder than that? Now, if I saw all this data that said Robinson was better...I'd have to evaluate more, but that isn't the case at all.

I mean...did you watch the Spurs vs. Jazz series in 96? Did you really come away thinking that Robinson was on par with Jordan? Like...really?

[West-Side]

Raw stats just aren't going to get you anywhere.

96 MJ vs 07 Kobe, just on stats, is a landslide in favor of MJ...I just posted all the stuff. MJ destroys him...

I don't care to argue it stats wise because it was obvious to anyone watching them both play.

And I ask again...why don't you have Lebron as better than Kobe in these years? Because his stats are better.

Also, Duncan in 07 was a ****ing monster. You clearly were not watching back then if you think it's controversial to have him as the best player.

No he doesn't, in fact Kobe had a higher 2PT% & TS% if you look at league averages for those respective seasons which directly influences advanced metrics like PER.

So if we actually take raw numbers and add context to them; Kobe ends up being a better scorer AND playmaker than 96' Jordan.

Kobe's adjusted 2PT% & TS% jumps up to .516 2PT% and .597 TS%.
Which is better than Jordan's numbers.

Again, when I actually took the time to show this to everyone all I saw was crickets. No one had a rebuttal.

Fact is, I can take someone like James Worthy and Chris Mullin and make them look better than LeBron James & Dirk Nowitzki.

Since their advanced metrics are better.
You're clueless bud, just stop.

No one in their right mind considered 07' Duncan better than 07' Kobe.

[Wade's Rings]

I think Kobe was clearly the best in 2006, 2007 & 2008.
In 2009 & 2010 it is debatable and I'm leaning towards saying no (for 2010).

For 2009, I think he was still the best in the world (but I won't be so close minded as I am for 2006 & 2007).

How do you decide who was the best each year? If it's Playoffs then how is Kobe better than Dirk or Wade or Duncan in '06? If it's the Regular Season or just dominance how is he better than Wade or Bron in 2009 or 2010?

[West-Side]

How do you decide who was the best each year? If it's Playoffs then how is Kobe better than Dirk or Wade or Duncan in '06? If it's the Regular Season or just dominance how is he better than Wade or Bron in 2009 or 2010?

Did you watch the game those years? That's how.
Just watch Kobe take over games with his scoring, carrying a historically pathetic group of players to the playoffs and almost upsetting a far superior Phoenix team.

When Jordan had similar talent around him, he couldn't even make the playoffs and NEVER got past the 1st round.

[ZMonkey11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWCDT4AMbBA

Do you have any men's views on best player?

DWade trying to make a Shaq face in this interview or something? PEDs got ya looking stupid.

[stalkerforlife]

96' Jordan: 30.4 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 4.3 APG, .506 2PT%, .582 TS%
97' Jordan: 29.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 4.3 APG, .507 2PT%, .567 TS%
98' Jordan: 28.7 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, .482 2PT%, .533 TS%


07' Kobe: 31.6 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.4 APG, .497 2PT%, .580 TS%
08' Kobe: 28.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.4 APG, .490 2PT%, .576 TS%
09' Kobe: 26.8 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG, .496 2PT%, .561 TS%


But according to this guy, 07' Duncan was better than 07' Kobe.
Yet Kobe's 07' production resembles 96' Jordan.

It's moronic to compare advanced stats across two players from completely different era's with completely different rules. I've already showed you guys how Kobe stacks up to Jordan when we consider league averages. The difference still favors Jordan (as he is the GOAT) but Kobe's numbers look a lot closer once you adjust their #'s for league averages.

To clarify something; you think 07' Duncan would be comparable to 96' Jordan correct?
Seeing as those how closely Kobe resembles 96' Jordan.

http://i.imgur.com/ByQSoLU.gif

[catch24]

xrapm and rapm are not basically the same thing. RPM is ESPN's new formula and they don't have it for more than a few years now iirc.

Fpliii literally said a few days back that RPM and xRAPM are essentially the SAME, and I see him using those stats regularly (he also talks with the JE...the creator of the metric).


i reject your statement that they are similar stats wise in 96, but don't care to debate that.

OK. How aren't they close?


what do you mean...if it's not stats? it's from watching the NBA for years upon years and evaluating who I think is the best. if, i was really high or low on a player...and the objective measures disagree with my take...then I'll evaluate my opinion.

Wade the player and Kobe fans alike think Kobe is the best player of the 2006-2010 era.

From watching and evaluating the games. Not much different. :confusedshrug:



Why do I think MJ was better than Robinson in 96? Because I watched all the games and thought MJ was better...why does it have to be harder than that?

Right.

...And Wade watched Kobe from 2006-2010. He thinks Kobe is the greatest of that era. What's wrong with that?

[DMAVS41]

No he doesn't, in fact Kobe had a higher 2PT% & TS% if you look at league averages for those respective seasons which directly influences advanced metrics like PER.

So if we actually take raw numbers and add context to them; Kobe ends up being a better scorer AND playmaker than 96' Jordan.

Kobe's adjusted 2PT% & TS% jumps up to .516 2PT% and .597 TS%.
Which is better than Jordan's numbers.

Again, when I actually took the time to show this to everyone all I saw was crickets. No one had a rebuttal.

Fact is, I can take someone like James Worthy and Chris Mullin and make them look better than LeBron James & Dirk Nowitzki.

Since their advanced metrics are better.
You're clueless bud, just stop.

No one in their right mind considered 07' Duncan better than 07' Kobe.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102569

You are clueless...you keep making all stats arguments but refuse to acknowledge that on your line of thinking you must put Lebron over Kobe for all these years...yet you don't. So you fail on your own criteria.

And yes...MJ blows Kobe out of the water on advanced metrics 96 vs 07...or any other year you want to bring up.

[stalkerforlife]

West-side was using advanced stats and you were propping him up but because Dmavs does does it, it's arbitrary?

Correct.

Got a problem?

The Kobe rules are being employed.

[Doranku]

Cherry picking?

I just said he didn't put it in.

How is this for cherry picking....playoffs:

Duncan 26/11/3 63% TS 30.4 PER
Wade 28/6/6 59% TS 26.9 PER
Dirk 27/12/3 60% TS 26.8 PER


Kobe 28/6/5 59% TS 19.9 PER


Yep...they just weren't on Kobe's level...even though the advanced metrics all put them there in the regular season and they clearly outplayed him in the playoffs.

But it's not close...

Wade and Kobe had identical numbers, yet Wade's PER is 7 points higher.

Cool stat. :roll:

[riseagainst]

Wade and Kobe had identical numbers, yet Wade's PER is 7 points higher.

Cool stat. :roll:


:biggums:

what the fuq? PER is such a dumb stat.

:lol

[stalkerforlife]

No he doesn't, in fact Kobe had a higher 2PT% & TS% if you look at league averages for those respective seasons which directly influences advanced metrics like PER.

So if we actually take raw numbers and add context to them; Kobe ends up being a better scorer AND playmaker than 96' Jordan.

Kobe's adjusted 2PT% & TS% jumps up to .516 2PT% and .597 TS%.
Which is better than Jordan's numbers.

Again, when I actually took the time to show this to everyone all I saw was crickets. No one had a rebuttal.

Fact is, I can take someone like James Worthy and Chris Mullin and make them look better than LeBron James & Dirk Nowitzki.

Since their advanced metrics are better.
You're clueless bud, just stop.

No one in their right mind considered 07' Duncan better than 07' Kobe.

http://i.imgur.com/ByQSoLU.gif

[DMAVS41]

Fpliii literally said a few days back that RPM and xRAPM are essentially the SAME, and I see him using those stats regularly (he also talks with the JE...the creator of the metric).



OK. How aren't they close?



Wade the player and Kobe fans think Kobe is the best player of the 2006-2010 era.

From watching and evaluating the games. Not much different. :confusedshrug:




Wade watched Kobe from 2006-2010 and thinks Kobe is the greatest of that era. What's wrong with that?

xrapm doesn't have the data set to be as accurate as rapm

they aren't close for the reasons i posted....it's semantics if you think they are.

relevance? my opinion is my opinion. you won't see me saying Kobe has no argument or its' not close. the side you are on is claiming things like "not close", "no argument", "only a moron"...etc.

Also, i still don't get this arbitrary 06 through 10 time...I have never argued just those years and would never set the "eras" at that time at all as Duncan was still better than Kobe, imo, in 06 and 07

The "kobe era" did not randomly start in 06 because he had a shit team and shot a ton in a year with joke rules that allowed Iverson and Lebron to score at will as well.

[stalkerforlife]

Wade and Kobe had identical numbers, yet Wade's PER is 7 points higher.

Cool stat. :roll:

:roll:

WTF is that? Must be a glitch or something.

[ArbitraryWater]

Did you watch the game those years? That's how.
Just watch Kobe take over games with his scoring, carrying a historically pathetic group of players to the playoffs and almost upsetting a far superior Phoenix team.

When Jordan had similar talent around him, he couldn't even make the playoffs and NEVER got past the 1st round.

G3:

https://i.gyazo.com/54a9e1e3ba84c693f0bdf1f1668dbe41.png

Don't give me "one game!" either, thats an entire 48 minutes contradicting your statement :oldlol:

Stoudemire out, their best post option/2nd best player, meanwhile Kobe has an all-star caliber player to his side.

And you spout your Hyperbole without mentioning that Bron did the exact same thing against the Pistons that year, with the exception that his teammates shot even WORSE in game 7 :oldlol:

Acting like MJ or Bron wouldn't beat that Suns team :facepalm

And are you really out here posting 2P%'s? All while ignoring the inflated scoring season that 2006 was?

Get outchea, boy.

[DMAVS41]

Wade and Kobe had identical numbers, yet Wade's PER is 7 points higher.

Cool stat. :roll:


When you realize your side of the argument has been using the stats to prop their case...:roll:

[Wade's Rings]

Did you watch the game those years? That's how.
Just watch Kobe take over games with his scoring, carrying a historically pathetic group of players to the playoffs and almost upsetting a far superior Phoenix team.

When Jordan had similar talent around him, he couldn't even make the playoffs and NEVER got past the 1st round.

Wade carried bad players to the Playoffs in '09 and was dominant with his Defense as well not only his scoring. If I give Kobe the nod for what he did in '06 than why don't Bron or Wade get that in '09 or '10?

Jordan lost to Great Teams from '85-87 and better Defenses. He missed the Playoffs at 39 & 40 and in '02 it was his knee injury that stopped them from going to the Playoffs and making a deep run.

[catch24]

xrapm doesn't have the data set to be as accurate as rapm

they aren't close for the reasons i posted....it's semantics if you think they are.

relevance? my opinion is my opinion. you won't see me saying Kobe has no argument or its' not close. the side you are on is claiming things like "not close", "no argument", "only a moron"...etc.

Also, i still don't get this arbitrary 06 through 10 time...I have never argued just those years and would never set the "eras" at that time at all as Duncan was still better than Kobe, imo, in 06 and 07

2006-2010 are years where Kobe was either arguably the best player, or had the best seasons and success.

You're welcome to your opinion dude. I just don't see why you're close-minded in thinking Kobe isn't what Wade or his fans claimed him to be.

[SwishSquared]

Wade and Kobe had identical numbers, yet Wade's PER is 7 points higher.

Cool stat. :roll:They had the same TS%, which accounts for 3 point shots and FTs. Not just overall FG%. FTs and shooting at a high % from behind the arc boost that stat.

[catch24]

Wade and Kobe had identical numbers, yet Wade's PER is 7 points higher.

Cool stat. :roll:

Yup. Which is why I don't use many advanced metrics... Most of them are team-based anyway.

I've pulled them up for the sole purpose of exposing double-standards here.

[DMAVS41]

2006-2010 are years where Kobe was either arguably the best player, or had the best seasons and success.

You're welcome to your opinion dude. I just don't see why you're close-minded in thinking Kobe isn't what Wade or his fans claimed him to be.

Because I disagree does not make me closed minded. Total red herring.

Honestly, was closed minded or really "absent minded" is trying to straw man a position I don't hold while also claiming there is a double standard with MJ which has repeatedly been shut down with no response.

But, hey, if you want to argue Robinson over MJ...go for it...

But if you think that is at all similar to Duncan, Dirk, Wade, and Lebron over Kobe some of this years....you are just ignorant

[DMAVS41]

Yup. Which is why I don't use many advanced metrics... Most of them are team-based anyway.

I've pulled them up for the sole purpose of exposing double-standards here.

There is no double standard as it's not the only thing one uses. Bringing up stats does not mean someone only uses stats.

The double standard is when Kobe fans post stats...like for example 06 Kobe vs Duncan, Wade, and Dirk...as the reason he was better

Then turn around and say Kobe was better than Lebron in 09 and 10

Please...understand...that is the double standard

It would be a double standard for me if I was doing something like that, but I'm not...I have Duncan over Kobe in 06 despite having worse raw stats and I have Kobe over Lebron in 06 by having worse stats across the board

Please grasp this...and this is why your MJ vs Kobe thing misses it...you keep thinking people rate MJ so highly because of stats...that's not it. It's also not why some of us don't see Kobe the way you do...it's not just Kobe's game...it's the players surrounding him in the years you are talking about...

[Doranku]

They had the same TS%, which accounts for 3 point shots and FTs. Not just overall FG%. FTs and shooting at a high % from behind the arc boost that stat.

Kobe: 40% on 5 attempts from 3, 77% on 7 attempts from the line
Wade: 38% on 1 attempt from 3, 80% on 11 attempts from the line

So you're telling me that Wade's PER is 7 points higher because more of his points came from FTs than Kobe? Despite the fact that Kobe shot better percentages from 3 AND from 2 (53% vs 51%)?

Again... cool stat. :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe: 40% on 5 attempts from 3, 77% on 7 attempts from the line
Wade: 38% on 1 attempt from 3, 80% on 11 attempts from the line

So you're telling me that Wade's PER is 7 points higher because more of his points came from FTs than Kobe? Despite the fact that Kobe shot better percentages from 3 AND from 2 (53% vs 51%)?

Again... cool stat. :roll:

More goes into than that though. It's a box score stat...so you have to look at rates...like turnover rate, assist rate, defensive play...etc.

Again, your side was trumping this...

[riseagainst]

PER is the most flawed stat. It's not even a legit stat, just some made up combination of numbers.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

That's a cool quote, doesn't change the fact that Duncan > Kobe.

[fpliii]

xrapm and rapm are not basically the same thing. RPM is ESPN's new formula and they don't have it for more than a few years now iirc
J.E. noted that they are comparable:



Also I don't want to cause any confusion since this thread isn't about RPM/xRAPM, but are these sets (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2001.html through
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html) comparable to the RPM/xRAPM hosted on ESPN?Yes. Not exactly the same, but comparable

Please note that for years prior to 00-01, the numbers hosted on J.E.'s (now defunct) site are not RAPM or xRAPM, but 'Fake RAPM' (since he didn't have access to play by plays for prior seasons; we still don't for most years, though acrossthecourt has put up RAPM for 96-97 through 99-00 on his site http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/?m=1). See this link for more details:

http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?t=8067

Anyhow, I don't use xRAPM/RPM personally (stick to RAPM, since it's pure play by play with no box score elements, and because it's easy to reproduce; in addition to with/without SRS and net on/off), but if you go to archive.org you can probably still grab the numbers on J.E.'s site for seasons before he started working with ESPN (again though, so not confuse the 00-01 and later seasons with those from before, which are 'Fake RAPM' and not xRAPM/RPM).

[DMAVS41]

J.E. noted that they are comparable:



Please note that for years prior to 00-01, the numbers hosted on J.E.'s (now defunct) site are not RAPM or xRAPM, but 'Fake RAPM' (since he didn't have access to play by plays for prior seasons; we still don't for most years, though acrossthecourt has put up RAPM for 96-97 through 99-00 on his site http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/?m=1). See this link for more details:

http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?t=8067

Anyhow, I don't use xRAPM/RPM personally (stick to RAPM, since it's pure play by play with no box score elements, and because it's easy to reproduce; in addition to with/without SRS and net on/off), but if you go to archive.org you can probably still grab the numbers on J.E.'s site for seasons before he started working with ESPN (again though, so not confuse the 00-01 and later seasons with those from before, which are 'Fake RAPM' and not xRAPM/RPM).


Ok...so the stuff pre 01 is "fake rapm"...is was conflating "fake rapm" and "xrapm"

[catch24]

Because I disagree does not make me closed minded. Total red herring.

Honestly, was closed minded or really "absent minded" is trying to straw man a position I don't hold while also claiming there is a double standard with MJ which has repeatedly been shut down with no response.

But, hey, if you want to argue Robinson over MJ...go for it...

But if you think that is at all similar to Duncan, Dirk, Wade, and Lebron over Kobe some of this years....you are just ignorant

I don't think me agreeing with Dwyane Wade, arguably the third best shooting guard of all-time, and a guy who regularly competed against Kobe, makes me ignorant or biased at all.

I'm not calling you out or anything. I'm legitimately curious as to why you don't think Wade's statement isn't even an argument...

How some years (like 2007) you have players with inferior stats BOTH raw and advanced...ranked above guys with superior numbers.

[fpliii]

Ok...so the stuff pre 01 is "fake rapm"...is was conflating "fake rapm" and "xrapm"
Yeah. J.E. didn't really label things well on his site, but that's the gist of it. Here's a recent archive of his site:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150408042813/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

[DMAVS41]

Yeah. J.E. didn't really label things well on his site, but that's the gist of it. Here's a recent archive of his site:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150408042813/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

Right...

Where do you get your RAPM with no box score added in? I'd be interested to see the exact formula for RPM for ESPN...I heard they value stats in blowouts less recently.

[coin24]

Wades a smart guy:cheers:

As if LeMicropeni.s is in the conversation.. Duncan most definitely is up there though. Bran has no case, the choke and quits in 09 and 10. The epic meltdown in 11 after the collusion, the pretty much no show in 13 until pops brain farted in the 4th. Then scurrying back to the cavs when there roster looked better:lol

Doesn't sound like an alpha or a player of a generation. Sounds like a front running coward..

[DMAVS41]

I don't think me agreeing with Dwyane Wade, arguably the third best shooting guard of all-time, and a guy who regularly competed against Kobe, makes me ignorant or biased at all.

I'm not calling you out or anything. I'm legitimately curious as to why you don't think Wade's statement isn't even an argument...

How some years (like 2007) you have players with inferior stats BOTH raw and advanced ranked above guys with superior numbers.

You aren't listening to what I said. Saying Kobe was the best player in any given stretch is fine, I just happen to disagree unless it's 08.

I said one would be ignorant if they thought arguing Robinson vs MJ in 96 is akin to arguing Kobe vs Lebron in 09/10...or Kobe vs Duncan or Wade or Dirk some years.

That was my comment about being ignorant...not about Kobe being maybe the best player some years.

I have repeatedly said this and it gets tiresome having to repeat. I'm cool with it...I just disagree.

Where the people on your side get me is with the double standard arguments and the "not close" and "only a moron would think Duncan was the best player in 07" type comments.

[West-Side]

G3:

https://i.gyazo.com/54a9e1e3ba84c693f0bdf1f1668dbe41.png

Don't give me "one game!" either, thats an entire 48 minutes contradicting your statement :oldlol:

Stoudemire out, their best post option/2nd best player, meanwhile Kobe has an all-star caliber player to his side.

And you spout your Hyperbole without mentioning that Bron did the exact same thing against the Pistons that year, with the exception that his teammates shot even WORSE in game 7 :oldlol:

Acting like MJ or Bron wouldn't beat that Suns team :facepalm

And are you really out here posting 2P%'s? All while ignoring the inflated scoring season that 2006 was?

Get outchea, boy.

Please elaborate on your point?
I watched that series from start to finish.

In the first 4 games, Kobe had two bad shooting games.
LA won 3 out of the 4 games. His teammates played well.

Once Kobe made that game winning shot in overtime, his teammates collapsed. Kobe played brilliantly in games 5, 6 & even 7. Despite his teammates completely folding under pressure.

P.S. - Lamar Odom never made the all-star team, so quite telling me Kobe had an "all-star" caliber 2nd option.

[catch24]

You aren't listening to what I said. Saying Kobe was the best player in any given stretch is fine, I just happen to disagree unless it's 08.

So why the big fuss about it? I don't see anybody save for MAYBE one Kobe fan saying "its not close". At that point its not even worth debating.


I said one would be ignorant if they thought arguing Robinson vs MJ in 96 is akin to arguing Kobe vs Lebron in 09/10...or Kobe vs Duncan or Wade or Dirk some years.

That was my comment about being ignorant...not about Kobe being maybe the best player some years.

Robinson, Shaq and Malone all had the advantage in advanced numbers (just like Duncan, Wade and LeBron do with Kobe). That version of MJ and Kobe from 2009-2010 (playoffs) have pretty similar raw numbers, and they both won multiple titles and FMVPs.

Why Jordan is called the undisputed best player from 1996-98, while Kobe isn't from 2009-2010 is something I have failed to grasp apparently.


Where the people on your side get me is with the double standard arguments and the "not close" and "only a moron would think Duncan was the best player in 07" type comments.

In fairness, you would be hard-pressed to find many people that had Duncan over Kobe that season. You're not a "moron" for thinking that, but definitely one of the very few sharing that opinion.

[fpliii]

Right...

Where do you get your RAPM with no box score added in? I'd be interested to see the exact formula for RPM for ESPN...I heard they value stats in blowouts less recently.
I'll PM you...

[DMAVS41]

So why the big fuss about it? I don't see anybody save for MAYBE one Kobe fan saying "its not close". At that point its not even worth debating.



Robinson, Shaq and Malone all had the advantage in advanced numbers (just like Duncan, Wade and LeBron do with Kobe). That version of MJ and Kobe from 2009-2010 (playoffs) have pretty similar raw numbers, and they both won multiple titles and FMVPs.

Why Jordan is called the undisputed best player from 1996-98, while Kobe isn't from 2009-2010 is something I have failed to grasp apparently.



In fairness, you would be hard-pressed to find many people that had Duncan over Kobe that season. You're not a "moron" for thinking that, but definitely one of the very few sharing that opinion.

Plenty more people are saying this...

The ISH thread about the best player in 07 had Duncan as number 1. This is exactly what I'm talking about...the number of people agreeing on something does not make it more valid. You have to actually have arguments...and there are no good arguments that someone is an "idiot" for thinking Duncan was the best player in 07. Could they be wrong? Sure...but it's a legit debate/conversation to be had regardless of how many people think one way or the other based on the evidence.

Again...if you watched the 96 season play out and thought Robinson had as good of an argument for best player in the league as Lebron did in 09 and 10...I either think you are lying about watching that season or are just saying things you don't actually mean

Like I said before...we can leave it there...I'm not interested in debating something like that because my mind will never change. I'll never think Robinson and MJ were as close in 96 as Kobe and Lebron were in 09/10

I think you continue to miss or ignore that some people don't only use stats...they may uses stats, but it's not the end all be all...I've repeatedly said this yet every response is about how certain players have similar advanced stats and you think it's a double standard...but it's not because the people who think MJ was clearly better than Robinson aren't using only stats...just like the people that think Lebron was better than Kobe in some years don't have to just use stats

On the flip side, the only way you could argue Robinson vs Joran in 96 is using stats...that is the difference I think you and your side often mix up

[DMAVS41]

I'll PM you...

Thanks.

[catch24]

DMAVS,

You have LeBron over Kobe in 2009 and 2010...correct? If not for the stats, what made LeBron better? Or is that a season you used stats?

Which year(s) from 2006-2010 didn't you apply numbers and simply went off your personal eye-test?

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS,

You have LeBron over Kobe in 2009 and 2010...correct? If not for the stats, what made LeBron better? Or is that a season you used stats?

Which year(s) from 2006-2010 didn't you apply numbers and simply went off your personal eye-test?

Again...this is a flaw in your thinking. You think one can either use stats or not use stats.

Why are you so against taking everything in? Watching games, reading articles, analyzing the evidence...etc.?

Why does it always have to be one thing or the other?

I thought Lebron was better those years for all of the above. A combination of watching the games and looking at the stats. I thought Lebron was unstoppable in a way Kobe wasn't...thought he physically just dominated other teams in a way Kobe couldn't. Thought him getting those teams with Mike Brown coaching to that level was special.

And that how it always is for me...a combination.

You make it sound like I'm arguing that Gilbert Arenas was the best player or something because he had great stats.

[Smoke117]

How can you be the best player of an era when there are legitimate arguments you were never even the best player in the league in any of your 20 NBA seasons?

[West-Side]

Again...this is a flaw in your thinking. You think one can either use stats or not use stats.

Why are you so against taking everything in? Watching games, reading articles, analyzing the evidence...etc.?

Why does it always have to be one thing or the other?

I thought Lebron was better those years for all of the above. A combination of watching the games and looking at the stats. I thought Lebron was unstoppable in a way Kobe wasn't...thought he physically just dominated other teams in a way Kobe couldn't. Thought him getting those teams with Mike Brown coaching to that level was special.

And that how it always is for me...a combination.

You make it sound like I'm arguing that Gilbert Arenas was the best player or something because he had great stats.

God, just shut up already you biased troll.
I watched the game just like you, so I have no idea how you would conclude that 06' & 07' Duncan was more dominant than 06' & 07' Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

God, just shut up already you biased troll.
I watched the game just like you, so I have no idea how you would conclude that 06' & 07' Duncan was more dominant than 06' & 07' Kobe.

I never said more dominant, but I think that would depend on how you are defining dominant.

I think you really miss on the value of Duncan those years and specifically his defensive dominance.

I just think you miss a lot of the value of certain players. The way you argue...I think you'd probably argue that Gilbert Arenas was better than Duncan in 06.

You can have the last word, I won't respond to you again.

[catch24]

Again...this is a flaw in your thinking. You think one can either use stats or not use stats.

Not really. I am just asking.

Looks to me as though there are seasons you want to use stats more than others. Like adhering to numbers that you don't with other players for different years.


I thought Lebron was better those years for all of the above. A combination of watching the games and looking at the stats. I thought Lebron was unstoppable in a way Kobe wasn't...thought he physically just dominated other teams in a way Kobe couldn't. Thought him getting those teams with Mike Brown coaching to that level was special.

How much do Kobe's similar raw numbers to 1996-98 playoff MJ, and winning a championship/FMVP, counterbalance the statistical gap between he and LeBron in 2009 and 2010?

[DMAVS41]

Not really. I am just asking.

Looks to me as though there are seasons you want to use stats more than others. Like adhering to numbers that you don't with other players for different years.



How much does Kobe having similar raw stats to 1996-98 MJ in the playoffs, winning a championship and FMVP, counterbalance the statistical gap between he and LeBron in 2009 and 2010?

Not really. Well, maybe on years where I think it's closer or I don't have a strong opinion on something.

Really none for me...winning has never really been that important to me when talking about how good a player is. It matters of course in certain circumstances, but when Lebron plays like he did against the Magic and he loses...just don't see any reason to penalize him for not winning.

But again...I wouldn't rank 97 and 98 MJ for sure better than 09 and 10 Lebron either. 96 MJ? Yea...I would...but not 97 and 98 MJ because he started to dip a little much like Kobe did in 10 imo. I really think you miss the boat on 96 MJ...he was way better than you are giving him credit for.

So unless it's like Lebron in the 11 finals...if a guy plays great and loses...and another guy plays great and wins at a similar level...I'll likely chalk that up to team strength, coaching, and circumstances...etc.

[West-Side]

Duncan & Kobe, heads-up in 2007.

Game 1

Lakers 106
Spurs 99

Kobe: 34 points (13 for 25), 8 rebounds, 3 steals
Duncan: 16 points (7 for 9), 13 rebounds, 5 assists

Game 2

Lakers 100
Spurs 96

Kobe: 34 (12 for 19) points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists
Duncan: 26 points (10 for 18), 9 rebounds, 4 blocks

Game 3

Spurs 96
Lakers 94

[Overtime]

Kobe: 31 points (13 for 25), 6 rebounds, 7 assists
Duncan: 21 points (10 for 23), 14 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 blocks


Eww, Kobe with Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Vlad Radmanovic & Turiaf were able to beat the "champions" twice that season and force an overtime.

Not to mention Kobe clearly outplaying Duncan in all 3 games, even shooting better than the 7'0 dude.

It doesn't even matter, 07' Kobe put up 96' Jordan type numbers. In fact he probably played even better if you adjust for league averages, Yet you actually think Duncan was better?

:rolleyes:

[West-Side]

I never said more dominant, but I think that would depend on how you are defining dominant.

I think you really miss on the value of Duncan those years and specifically his defensive dominance.

I just think you miss a lot of the value of certain players. The way you argue...I think you'd probably argue that Gilbert Arenas was better than Duncan in 06.

You can have the last word, I won't respond to you again.

This dipshit is now trying to compare Arenas to Kobe?
Yeah, please don't respond anymore.

[catch24]

Not really. Well, maybe on years where I think it's closer or I don't have a strong opinion on something.

Really none for me...winning has never really been that important to me when talking about how good a player is. It matters of course in certain circumstances, but when Lebron plays like he did against the Magic and he loses...just don't see any reason to penalize him for not winning.

But again...I wouldn't rank 97 and 98 MJ for sure better than 09 and 10 Lebron either. 96 MJ? Yea...I would...but not 97 and 98 MJ because he started to dip a little much like Kobe did in 10 imo. I really think you miss the boat on 96 MJ...he was way better than you are giving him credit for.

So unless it's like Lebron in the 11 finals...if a guy plays great and loses...and another guy plays great and wins at a similar level...I'll likely chalk that up to team strength, coaching, and circumstances...etc.

Alright... I'm getting a better understanding of where you're coming from.

Seeing as how you think that way, what about the 2007 season has you ranking Duncan over Kobe?

Kobe was definitely the superior offensive player both statistically and with the eye-test. Dude was an above average defender too (made an all-defensive team). So what exactly gives Duncan the nod besides him going deeper into the playoffs (winning a chip) with a better supporting cast?

[riseagainst]

Duncan & Kobe, heads-up in 2007.

Game 1

Lakers 106
Spurs 99

Kobe: 34 points (13 for 25), 8 rebounds, 3 steals
Duncan: 16 points (7 for 9), 13 rebounds, 5 assists

Game 2

Lakers 100
Spurs 96

Kobe: 34 (12 for 19) points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists
Duncan: 26 points (10 for 18), 9 rebounds, 4 blocks

Game 3

Spurs 96
Lakers 94

[Overtime]

Kobe: 31 points (13 for 25), 6 rebounds, 7 assists
Duncan: 21 points (10 for 23), 14 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 blocks


Eww, Kobe with Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Vlad Radmanovic & Turiaf were able to beat the "champions" twice that season and force an overtime.

Not to mention Kobe clearly outplaying Duncan in all 3 games, even shooting better than the 7'0 dude.

It doesn't even matter, 07' Kobe put up 96' Jordan type numbers. In fact he probably played even better if you adjust for league averages, Yet you actually think Duncan was better?

:rolleyes:



slaying these non-objective kobe haters.
make them see the truth.

:bowdown:
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

Alright... I'm getting a better understanding of where you're coming from.

Seeing as how you think that way, what about the 2007 season has you ranking Duncan over Kobe?

Kobe was definitely the superior offensive player both statistically and with the eye-test. Dude was an above average defender too (made an all-defensive team). So what exactly gives Duncan the nod besides him going deeper into the playoffs (winning a chip) with a better supporting cast?

Duncan's defense was dominant and I actually don't think Kobe was anything but average on that end.

Yea, Kobe was a more dominant scorer, but I think what Duncan provided was more valuable. Duncan isn't to be overlooked in terms of scoring either. He averaged 20 a game and 22 in the playoffs. He could dominate on either end and didn't a always need the ball like Kobe. Duncan was/is a better team player and gets the most out of his teammates as well, imo.

I'm just pretty much always going to take the 22/12/3 (playoffs) dominant defensive anchor over the perimeter guy that is ball dominant and not dominant defensively at all.

There are some exceptions, but I don't think 07 is one of those.

[West-Side]

Alright... I'm getting a better understanding of where you're coming from.

Seeing as how you think that way, what about the 2007 season has you ranking Duncan over Kobe?

Kobe was definitely the superior offensive player both statistically and with the eye-test. Dude was an above average defender too (made an all-defensive team). So what exactly gives Duncan the nod besides him going deeper into the playoffs (winning a chip) with a better supporting cast?

He'll resort to his "defense" argument as the underlining reason.
We had an argument in the past where he said Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem.

He also just said Dirk was better than Kobe in 2006.
Wrap that around your head.

Duncan is a great player who accomplished a lot due to Gregg Popovich.
Think about the past 15 years and remind yourself how many journey man came to SA and became impact players. They have guys like Parker, Manu & Leonard who weren't even lottery picks, yet all 3 will end up as HOF'ers.

I could recollect countless of players that Pop shaped into household names.
He's no different than Belichick from the Patriots.

New England has been a top notch teams for as long as he's been their coach. There has been countless of players who would come to New England and immediately become contributors. Look at Lafell for instance. Guy was pure garbage in Carolina, would drop passes left & right. He comes to New England and becomes a reliable 2nd option at receiver.

It's the brilliance of these coaches that makes the players around them so good. Duncan would have been a great player regardless, but he wouldn't have achieved as much without Pop.

[catch24]

Duncan's defense was dominant and I actually don't think Kobe was anything but average on that end.

Yea, Kobe was a more dominant scorer, but I think what Duncan provided was more valuable.

Why though? Don't think I've EVER seen a 20-22ppg scorer be considered "more valuable" than a more efficient 32ppg scorer (regular-season and playoffs).

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but that literally makes zero sense to me.

[DMAVS41]

Why though? I don't think I've ever seen a 20-22ppg scorer be considered "more valuable" than a more efficient 32ppg scorer (regular-season and playoffs).

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but that literally makes zero sense to me.

So was Iverson more valuable than 06 Duncan?

[West-Side]

Duncan's defense was dominant and I actually don't think Kobe was anything but average on that end.

Yea, Kobe was a more dominant scorer, but I think what Duncan provided was more valuable. Duncan isn't to be overlooked in terms of scoring either. He averaged 20 a game and 22 in the playoffs. He could dominate on either end and didn't a always need the ball like Kobe. Duncan was/is a better team player and gets the most out of his teammates as well, imo.

I'm just pretty much always going to take the 22/12/3 (playoffs) dominant defensive anchor over the perimeter guy that is ball dominant and not dominant defensively at all.

There are some exceptions, but I don't think 07 is one of those.

Called it. :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

He'll resort to his "defense" argument as the underlining reason.
We had an argument in the past where he said Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem.

He also just said Dirk was better than Kobe in 2006.
Wrap that around your head.

Duncan is a great player who accomplished a lot due to Gregg Popovich.
Think about the past 15 years and remind yourself how many journey man came to SA and became impact players. They have guys like Parker, Manu & Leonard who weren't even lottery picks, yet all 3 will end up as HOF'ers.

I could recollect countless of players that Pop shaped into household names.
He's no different than Belichick from the Patriots.

New England has been a top notch teams for as long as he's been their coach. There has been countless of players who would come to New England and immediately become contributors. Look at Lafell for instance. Guy was pure garbage in Carolina, would drop passes left & right. He comes to New England and becomes a reliable 2nd option at receiver.

It's the brilliance of these coaches that makes the players around them so good. Duncan would have been a great player regardless, but he wouldn't have achieved as much without Pop.
Same with Belichick, you could argue that the QB of the team (so to speak with Duncan) was just as important at making those players household names.

[West-Side]

Same with Belichick, you could argue that the QB of the team (so to speak with Duncan) was just as important at making those players household names.

Spurs won 60+ games with Duncan playing like 30 MPG and sitting out like 10 games just 2 years ago. :oldlol:

[catch24]

So was Iverson more valuable than 06 Duncan?

On offense? 26ppg on 54%TS is definitely more comparable than ~10 more PPG on better efficiency.

Don't you think? :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

They had the same TS%, which accounts for 3 point shots and FTs. Not just overall FG%. FTs and shooting at a high % from behind the arc boost that stat.
Wade had more points, assists, steals, and blocks. Kobe had more TOV's.

[ArbitraryWater]

2006 goes:

Dirk/Kobe
Wade/Bron
Nash/Duncan

IMO

[West-Side]

Tim Duncan: 15.1 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 1.9 BPG (49 FG%) in 29.2 MPG playing in 74 games.

Spurs won 62 games that year.

YES, it has always been Duncan that made SA so consistent, not Gregg Popovich. :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

On offense? 26ppg on 54%TS is definitely more arguable than nearly 10 more PPG on better efficiency.

Don't you think? :confusedshrug:

So you only care about offense? I thought you were saying that a guy that scores 10 or so more points per game on good efficiency is always more valuable than the guy scoring 10 less no matter how elite his defense was.

Also, Iverson scored 33 per game in 06...

So I'm confused to your point. Why would we only talk about offense when Duncan's best attribute is his ability to anchor an elite defense?

[catch24]

He'll resort to his "defense" argument as the underlining reason.
We had an argument in the past where he said Duncan is a better defender than Hakeem.

He also just said Dirk was better than Kobe in 2006.
Wrap that around your head.

Duncan is a great player who accomplished a lot due to Gregg Popovich.
Think about the past 15 years and remind yourself how many journey man came to SA and became impact players. They have guys like Parker, Manu & Leonard who weren't even lottery picks, yet all 3 will end up as HOF'ers.

I could recollect countless of players that Pop shaped into household names.
He's no different than Belichick from the Patriots.

New England has been a top notch teams for as long as he's been their coach. There has been countless of players who would come to New England and immediately become contributors. Look at Lafell for instance. Guy was pure garbage in Carolina, would drop passes left & right. He comes to New England and becomes a reliable 2nd option at receiver.

It's the brilliance of these coaches that makes the players around them so good. Duncan would have been a great player regardless, but he wouldn't have achieved as much without Pop.

Good point, and I agree with you.

I just don't see how Duncan's defense could negate Kobe's superior, ATG offense. There was a significantly larger gap with the latter.

[DMAVS41]

Good point, and I agree with you.

I just don't see how Duncan's defense could negate Kobe's superior, ATG offense. There was a significantly larger gap with the latter.

So I ask again. Was Iverson and Arenas more valuable than Duncan in 06.

Iverson dropped 33 a game and Arenas dropped 29 a game and then 34 in the playoffs on great efficiency.

So, were Iverson and Arenas better than Duncan in 06?

[West-Side]

Good point, and I agree with you.

I just don't see how Duncan's defense could negate Kobe's superior, ATG offense. There was a significantly larger gap with the latter.

That's the guy's basis for everything.
He'll talk about stats and "eye-test" whenever it suits his argument, but resort to the "defense" argument whenever it suits him (when it pertains to Duncan).

As I've said, this idiot believes that Duncan is a better (more valuable) defender than Hakeem.

Spurs had the 3rd highest DRat in 2013, when Duncan only played 29 minutes.
Just to put things in perspective.

[catch24]

So you only care about offense?

I thought you were asking me about their scoring.

Anyway, no, I don't think that. Duncan's scoring was obviously more comparable with Iverson's (while also being a MUCH better defender).

There's just no way Duncan's defense could negate the HUGE advantage Kobe had on offense. IMO at least.

[DMAVS41]

I thought you were asking me about their scoring.

Anyway, no, I don't think that. Duncan's scoring was obviously more comparable with Iverson's (while also being a MUCH better defender).

There's just no way Duncan's defense could negate the HUGE advantage Kobe had on offense. IMO at least.

Why? Iverson scored 33 a game in 06 and Duncan averaged 19. Iverson was more efficient. How was Duncan better according to your own criteria?

[West-Side]

So I ask again. Was Iverson and Arenas more valuable than Duncan in 06.

Iverson dropped 33 a game and Arenas dropped 29 a game and then 34 in the playoffs on great efficiency.

So, were Iverson and Arenas better than Duncan in 06?

Kobe was better than both offensively and made 1st team all-defense. So why does Arenas & Iverson matter? Unless your dumbass actually believes either of them were on the same level as Kobe offensively that year. :facepalm
But let me guess, your rebuttal will be that "Kobe's defense is mediocre and he didn't deserve the 1st team". :oldlol:

That's all you're good for.
You'll use stats when it suits your agenda but resort to qualitative characteristics that are difficult to properly measure as a cop out when it comes to Duncan.

[catch24]

Why? Iverson scored 33 a game in 06 and Duncan averaged 19. Iverson was more efficient. How was Duncan better according to your own criteria?

I'm referring to Iverson in 2007.

I thought we were discussing 2007 Kobe vs 2007 Duncan. :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

Spurs won 60+ games with Duncan playing like 30 MPG and sitting out like 10 games just 2 years ago. :oldlol:
Yea making teammates better can go far beyond the actual time you're physically on the court with them.

Leadership, wisdom, decision-making, etc.

[DMAVS41]

I'm referring to Iverson in 2007.

I thought we were discussing 2007 Kobe vs 2007 LeBron. :confusedshrug:

You made the following claim:


Why though? Don't think I've EVER seen a 20-22ppg scorer be considered "more valuable" than a more efficient 32ppg scorer (regular-season and playoffs).

So I simply asked you if you thought Iverson and Arenas were more valuable than Duncan in 06.

Are you backing away from the bold or are you saying Iverson and Arenas were more valuable in 06?

Could you please answer.

It relates to the kobe vs duncan in 07 argument in many ways, but first I need to know your answer...

[West-Side]

Yea making teammates better can go far beyond the actual time you're physically on the court with them.

Leadership, wisdom, decision-making, etc.

Okay.

[ArbitraryWater]

DMAVS got catch by his balls right now

[West-Side]

DMAVS got catch by his balls right now

Yes, because comparing Arenas & Iverson to Kobe in 06' or 07' is a genius argument.

Kobe was only a more efficient, versatile and creative offensive threat than both, he was also far superior defensively.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not comparing Kobe to Iverson or Arenas...just to clear that up

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes, because comparing Arenas & Iverson to Kobe in 06' or 07' is a genius argument.

Kobe was only a more efficient, versatile and creative offensive threat than both, he was also far superior defensively.

besides "versatile", no to all of those.. especially the creative one, if you'd just knew Iverson one bit :lol

[aj1987]

Tim Duncan: 15.1 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 1.9 BPG (49 FG%) in 29.2 MPG playing in 74 games.

Spurs won 62 games that year.

YES, it has always been Duncan that made SA so consistent, not Gregg Popovich. :rolleyes:
The Spurs have won 50 games EVERY year since 1999 (have been on pace in shortened seasons). The only constant over those 17 years has been Duncan. Pop is one of the greatest coaches ever, but he's not the one shutting down the paint and putting the ball in the hoop.

Look at the '03 season, for instance:

Parker - 14.7 PPG 2.8 RPG 3.5 APG on 47% TS

Manu - 9.4 PPG 3.8 RPG 2.9 APG on 52%

Robinson - 7.8 PPG 6.6 RPG 0.9 APG on 59% TS

SJax - 12.8 PPG 4.1 RPG 2.7 APG on 53% TS

And then you have Duncan - 24.7 PPG 15.4 RPG 5.3 APG 3.3 BPG on 58% TS along with DPOY defense

Duncan led the team in points, rebounds (both offensive and defensive), assists, and blocks. Lets act like it was Pop's system though.

Heck, look at the '13 Finals. Duncan was still putting up 19/12 with 1st team level defense.

[catch24]

You made the following claim:


Why though? Don't think I've EVER seen a 20-22ppg scorer be considered "more valuable" than a more efficient 32ppg scorer (regular-season and playoffs).

So I simply asked you if you thought Iverson and Arenas were more valuable than Duncan in 06.

I'm not backing away from anything dude. Relax lol

I think Duncan probably has the edge because Philly didn't even make the playoffs. We really don't know what Iverson's numbers would look like.

In the regular-season dude was a better offensive player than Duncan though.

33ppg on 54%TS vs ~18pppg on 52%TS

Come on... That isn't even debatable.

[kamil]

I deny it.

What now?

I deny it also.

[ShawkFactory]

Okay.
:kobe:

[catch24]

DMAVS got catch by his balls right now

lol

How? You already said Kobe has a great argument for 2007...

[DMAVS41]

I'm not backing away from anything dude. Relax lol

I think Duncan probably has the edge because Philly didn't even make the playoffs. We really don't know what Iverson's numbers would look like.

In the regular-season dude was a better offensive player than Duncan though.

33ppg on 54%TS vs ~18pppg on 52%TS

Come on... That isn't even debatable.

I'm about to stop because you aren't discussing in good faith. You are dodging and throwing out red herrings and straw men arguments.

I never claimed Duncan was more valuable offensively. So please stop only comparing offense.

I'm going to make this easy for you.

Gilbert Arenas scored 29 a game on 58% TS in the 06 regular season. He scored 34 a game on 60% TS in the playoffs.

Was he more valuable than 07 Duncan?

Please answer.

[West-Side]

2006

Iverson - 33 PPG, 3 RPG, 7 APG, 54% TS, .465 2PT% [25.9 PER]
10.6 WS
Bryant - 35 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG, 56% TS, .491 2PT% [28 PER]
15.3 WS
Arenas - 29 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 6.1 APG, 58% TS, .485 2PT% [23.8 PER]
13.6 WS

Most importantly,

Defensive Win Shares:

Iverson - 1.8
Bryant - 3.7
Arenas - 2.6

Duncan's - 6.9

[3.2 difference favoring Duncan]

However, in terms of offensive win shares:

Kobe - 11.6
Duncan - 3.9

[7.7 difference favoring Kobe]

Kobe also made 1st team all-defense team in 06'.

Do the ****ing math.

Class dismissed.

[catch24]

I'm about to stop because you aren't discussing in good faith. You are dodging and throwing out red herrings and straw men arguments.

I never claimed Duncan was more valuable offensively. So please stop only comparing offense.

I'm going to make this easy for you.

Gilbert Arenas scored 29 a game on 58% TS in the 06 regular season. He scored 34 a game on 60% TS in the playoffs.

Was he more valuable than 07 Duncan?

Please answer.

Don't see how. Feels like I'm just putting things in perspective. :confusedshrug:

As for your original question,

I would take 2006 Duncan over 2006 Iverson as better players are concerned. TD actually made the playoffs and was a MUCH better scorer in the postseason (compared to his regular-season). Duncan was also a far superior defender, more-so than with 2007 Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Don't see how. Feels like I'm just putting things in perspective. :confusedshrug:

As for your original question,

I would take 2006 Duncan over 2006 Iverson as better players are concerned. TD actually made the playoffs and was a MUCH better scorer in the postseason (compared to his regular-season). Duncan was also a far superior defender, more-so than with 2007 Kobe.

How about Arenas...he made the playoffs and was great?

And please compare 06 Arenas to 07 Duncan...

[West-Side]

The Spurs have won 50 games EVERY year since 1999 (have been on pace in shortened seasons). The only constant over those 17 years has been Duncan. Pop is one of the greatest coaches ever, but he's not the one shutting down the paint and putting the ball in the hoop.

Look at the '03 season, for instance:

Parker - 14.7 PPG 2.8 RPG 3.5 APG on 47% TS

Manu - 9.4 PPG 3.8 RPG 2.9 APG on 52%

Robinson - 7.8 PPG 6.6 RPG 0.9 APG on 59% TS

SJax - 12.8 PPG 4.1 RPG 2.7 APG on 53% TS

And then you have Duncan - 24.7 PPG 15.4 RPG 5.3 APG 3.3 BPG on 58% TS along with DPOY defense

Duncan led the team in points, rebounds (both offensive and defensive), assists, and blocks. Lets act like it was Pop's system though.

Heck, look at the '13 Finals. Duncan was still putting up 19/12 with 1st team level defense.

Why even mention 2003?
Duncan was once a superstar, top 3 player in the league.
Of course his presence was significant to San Antonio.

I'm talking about Pop's coaching abilities here.
Despite Duncan's decline since like 2008; SA remained a 50+ win team year in & year out. They even won a championship with Duncan putting up 19 & 12 (like you mentioned).

How does that not validate my point. :lol

PS - Duncan isn't the "only" consistent thing with those Spurs, Popovich is as well.
Thanks for proving my point.

Despite Duncan's obvious decline, Spurs still remained a contender to this day. (Duh!)

[Gus Hemmingway]

Dmavs is laying CLEVELAND STEAMERS on all KB fans

[aj1987]

That's the guy's basis for everything.
He'll talk about stats and "eye-test" whenever it suits his argument, but resort to the "defense" argument whenever it suits him (when it pertains to Duncan).

As I've said, this idiot believes that Duncan is a better (more valuable) defender than Hakeem.

Spurs had the 3rd highest DRat in 2013, when Duncan only played 29 minutes.
Just to put things in perspective.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Spurs' defensive ranking since Timmy:

'98 - 2nd
'99 - 1st
'00 - 2nd
'01 - 1st
'02 - 2nd
'03 - 3rd
'04 - 1st
'05 - 1st
'06 - 1st
'07 - 2nd
'08 - 3rd
'09 - 5th
'10 - 8th
'11 - 11th
'12 - 10th
'13 - 3rd
'14 - 3rd
'15 - 2nd

What do you? The couple of years when Duncan was out of it and people though he was done, the Spurs' defense dropped significantly. With Duncan's resurrection and Kawhi's emergence, the Spurs' defense picked up again.

It's actually a travesty that Timmy has 0 DPOY wins and fewer All-Defensive first team selections than Kobe. Just a joke.


Why even mention 2003?
Duncan was once a superstar, top 3 player in the league.
Of course his presence was significant to San Antonio.

I'm talking about Pop's coaching abilities here.
Despite Duncan's decline since like 2008; SA remained a 50+ win team year in & year out. They even won a championship with Duncan putting up 19 & 12 (like you mentioned).

How does that not validate my point. :lol

PS - Duncan isn't the "only" consistent thing with those Spurs, Popovich is as well.
Thanks for proving my point.

Despite Duncan's obvious decline, Spurs still remained a contender to this day. (Duh!)
So, Phil is the reason why Kobe won rings? Kobe did jack shit without Phil. Same with Jordan.

[DMAVS41]

seems like win shares are really important...

hmmmmm

Duncan 201.9 and .211 ws/48 regular season

Duncan 37.5 and .197 ws/48 playoffs

Kobe? Yea...not close to either.

So does that matter a lot or no?

Oh sorry....

Class dismissed. Did I do that right?

[DMAVS41]

Catch,

See...here is the point.

If you say Arenas in 06 was more valuable than Duncan in 07...we just see the game too differently to even have a legit back and forth. You and I would then just clearly value things much differently.

And that's fine, but that is where we'd be...

If you say Duncan in 07 was more valuable than Arenas was in 06...two things happen.

1. Your initial statement is false about never seeing a guy averaging that many more points on better efficiency being less valuable...you even said it makes 0 sense. So you'd have to come off that claim in a big way.

2. And because of taking Duncan over Arenas...you can at least understand, on some level, my reasons for taking Duncan over Kobe. Now...I'm not comparing Kobe to Arenas and Kobe and Duncan is far closer than Arenas and Duncan, but the point is that you can grasp why one would take the 20 ppg guy with elite defense and better leadership/teammate...etc. over the 32 mpg guy that you previously claimed made 0 sense to you.


Lastly, I hope you just witnessed the actual double standard in this debate/discussion. Did you notice how "win shares" were used as the primary reason for Kobe over Duncan in 06 and Iverson/Arenas? Well, why then isn't win shares a huge factor or primary reason when discussing Kobe vs Duncan overall? Not only does Duncan beat Kobe in totals quite easily, but he trumps him on the per 48 metric as well. Even worse, this is even more impressive for Duncan as he's actually played games during his late years while kobe has missed a ton of time which has helped his averages greatly as he's been basically a negative win shares player since 13.

See the actual double standard from your side (now I know it's not you, but I want you to see the real double standard)? Win shares matter hugely in 06, but don't matter overall. LOL

[RRR3]

Why even mention 2003?
Duncan was once a superstar, top 3 player in the league.
Of course his presence was significant to San Antonio.

I'm talking about Pop's coaching abilities here.
Despite Duncan's decline since like 2008; SA remained a 50+ win team year in & year out. They even won a championship with Duncan putting up 19 & 12 (like you mentioned).

How does that not validate my point. :lol

PS - Duncan isn't the "only" consistent thing with those Spurs, Popovich is as well.
Thanks for proving my point.

Despite Duncan's obvious decline, Spurs still remained a contender to this day. (Duh!)
Duncan was first team all-nba in 2013.


Role player doe.

[West-Side]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Spurs' defensive ranking since Timmy:

'98 - 2nd
'99 - 1st
'00 - 2nd
'01 - 1st
'02 - 2nd
'03 - 3rd
'04 - 1st
'05 - 1st
'06 - 1st
'07 - 2nd
'08 - 3rd
'09 - 5th
'10 - 8th
'11 - 11th
'12 - 10th
'13 - 3rd
'14 - 3rd
'15 - 2nd

What do you? The couple of years when Duncan was out of it and people though he was done, the Spurs' defense dropped significantly. With Duncan's resurrection and Kawhi's emergence, the Spurs' defense picked up again.

It's actually a travesty that Timmy has 0 DPOY wins and fewer All-Defensive first team selections than Kobe. Just a joke.


So, Phil is the reason why Kobe won rings? Kobe did jack shit without Phil. Same with Jordan.

Sigh, in 1997 Bob Hill was their coach.
Gregg Popovich became their coach in 1998.

Ever since then, SA were rated that highly.
Again, even when Duncan declined and started playing less minutes (and even resting) SA remained one of the very best defensive teams. I don't recall any other great big man they had all those years.

That's a credit to Gregg Popovich as well (if not more-so).

Since 2006, Duncan's minutes started to decline steadily.

34.1 - 1st
34.0 - 2nd
33.7 - 3rd
31.3 - 5th
28.4 - 8th
28.2 - 11th
30.1 - 10th
29.2 - 3rd
28.9 - 3rd

Honestly, it has a lot more to do with Pop than it did with Duncan.
Duncan started to decline and SA still remained one of the top 5 best defensive teams in the league DESPITE them not having any great defensive anchors replacing Duncan. Still, SA were able to be one of the ten best defensive teams in the league.

Heck, Duncan played only 28 MPG and SA were ranked 8th best team defensively.

I think this just shows how talented of a coach Pop is.
The biggest indication for me is his ability to turn trash into gold.

I mean, SA won 4 titles since he became their coach. Since Duncan they had a total of ZERO lottery picks (top 10) and have still managed to do all that.

It's funny how people contribute Belichick's success to Brady and Pop's to Duncan; yet they fail to realize that there's two sides to the game.

Duncan hasn't been dominating offensively for years now. Yet SA still has been one of the top offensive squads. New England have had a top defense for years now. Yet, they don't necessarily have great talent. The consistency can be directly attributed to how great of strategists Pop & Belichick are and more importantly their ability to not only develop players but utilize their biggest strengths and mix it to team needs.

[RRR3]

Sigh, in 1997 Bob Hill was their coach.
Gregg Popovich became their coach in 1998.

Ever since then, SA were rated that highly.
Again, even when Duncan declined and started playing less minutes (end even resting) SA remained one of the very best defensive teams. I don't recall any other great big man they had all those years.

That's a credit to Gregg Popovich as well (if not more-so).

Since 2006, Duncan's minutes started to decline steadily.

34.1 - 1st
34.0 - 2nd
33.7 - 3rd
31.3 - 5th
28.4 - 8th
28.2 - 11th
30.1 - 10th
29.2 - 3rd
28.9 - 3rd

Honestly, it has a lot more to do with Pop than it did with Duncan.
Duncan started to decline and SA still remained one of the top 5 best defensive teams in the league DESPITE them not having any great defensive anchors replacing Duncan. Still, SA were able to be one of the ten best defensive teams in the league.

Heck, Duncan played only 28 MPG and SA were ranked 8th best team defensively.

I think this just shows how talented of a coach Pop is.
The biggest indication for me is his ability to turn trash into gold.

I mean, SA won 4 titles since he became their coach. Since Duncan they had a total of ZERO lottery picks (top 10) and have still managed to do all that.

It's funny how people contribute Belichick's success to Brady and Pop's to Duncan; yet they fail to realize that there's two sides to the game.

Duncan hasn't been dominating offensively for years now. Yet SA still has been one of the top offensive squads. New England have had a top defense for years now. Yet, they don't necessarily have great talent. The consistency can be directly attributed to how great of strategists Pop & Belichick are and more importantly their ability to not only develop players but utilize their biggest strengths and mix it to team needs.
Kobe has never done shit without Phil Jackson. :confusedshrug:

I don't have a great way to make an argument here (for Kobe or Duncan), since I was a casual fan until pretty recently, but at least be consistent with your arguments m8

Based on what I know, I'd rather have Duncan, though. Kobe is too unpredictable.

[catch24]

How about Arenas...he made the playoffs and was great?

And please compare 06 Arenas to 07 Duncan...

I think 2006 Arenas was definitely right there with 2007 Duncan.

34ppg in the playoffs on ~60% TS is absolutely fantastic offense.

[DMAVS41]

I think 2006 Arenas was definitely right there with 2007 Duncan.

34ppg in the playoffs on ~60% TS is absolutely fantastic offense.

Fair enough.

We see the game just too differently to continue on.

Good talk though.

[West-Side]

Kobe has never done shit without Phil Jackson. :confusedshrug:

I don't have a great way to make an argument here (for Kobe or Duncan), since I was a casual fan until pretty recently, but at least be consistent with your arguments m8

Based on what I know, I'd rather have Duncan, though. Kobe is too unpredictable.

Phil Jackson never won a ring without a PRIME Jordan, Kobe, Pippen & Shaq though. Gregg Popovich did in 2013.

That's the difference and EXACTLY my point. :facepalm

No one said Duncan wasn't a great player in his prime; I'm talking about 2006 & 2007 here.

The year where Duncan was not in his peak years and Kobe was.
Yet you morons still believe Duncan was the better player.

The whole argument is surrounded by the moron DMAVS using defense as his reasoning. Kobe nearly doubled Duncan's production scoring wise [while being MORE efficient], was a better play-maker and made 1st team all defense.

Yet somehow, Duncan was still better. :oldlol:

[West-Side]

seems like win shares are really important...

hmmmmm

Duncan 201.9 and .211 ws/48 regular season

Duncan 37.5 and .197 ws/48 playoffs

Kobe? Yea...not close to either.

So does that matter a lot or no?

Oh sorry....

Class dismissed. Did I do that right?

Put some context behind these numbers you moron.
I don't even know what you're trying to say.

[RRR3]

Phil Jackson never won a ring without a PRIME Jordan, Kobe, Pippen & Shaq though. Gregg Popovich did in 2013.

That's the difference and EXACTLY my point. :facepalm

No one said Duncan wasn't a great player in his prime; I'm talking about 2006 & 2007 here.

The year where Duncan was not in his peak years and Kobe was.
Yet you morons still believe Duncan was the better player.

The whole argument is surrounded by the moron DMAVS using defense as his reasoning. Kobe nearly doubled Duncan's production scoring wise [while being MORE efficient], was a better play-maker and made 1st team all defense.

Yet somehow, Duncan was still better. :oldlol:
Jordan was in his prime for all of his rings? Not what I've been led to believe, certainly not in 1998. Kobe may have been in his prime in 2010, but he wasn't at his peak was he? I believe most say he began to fall off the following year?

[stalkerforlife]

Duncan & Kobe, heads-up in 2007.

Game 1

Lakers 106
Spurs 99

Kobe: 34 points (13 for 25), 8 rebounds, 3 steals
Duncan: 16 points (7 for 9), 13 rebounds, 5 assists

Game 2

Lakers 100
Spurs 96

Kobe: 34 (12 for 19) points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists
Duncan: 26 points (10 for 18), 9 rebounds, 4 blocks

Game 3

Spurs 96
Lakers 94

[Overtime]

Kobe: 31 points (13 for 25), 6 rebounds, 7 assists
Duncan: 21 points (10 for 23), 14 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 blocks


Eww, Kobe with Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Vlad Radmanovic & Turiaf were able to beat the "champions" twice that season and force an overtime.

Not to mention Kobe clearly outplaying Duncan in all 3 games, even shooting better than the 7'0 dude.

It doesn't even matter, 07' Kobe put up 96' Jordan type numbers. In fact he probably played even better if you adjust for league averages, Yet you actually think Duncan was better?

:rolleyes:

http://i.imgur.com/ByQSoLU.gif

[stalkerforlife]

Tim Duncan: 15.1 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 1.9 BPG (49 FG%) in 29.2 MPG playing in 74 games.

Spurs won 62 games that year.

YES, it has always been Duncan that made SA so consistent, not Gregg Popovich. :rolleyes:

:bowdown: :bowdown:

:applause: :applause:

West-side is the smartest poster on ISH.

[catch24]

Fair enough.

We see the game just too differently to continue on.

Good talk though.

I guess.

Just don't think its crazy to say 2006 Arenas had similar impact to 2007 Duncan...at all

People really underrate offense/scoring if that's the case. Also this isn't like Kobe who is a better defender than "Hibachi". I would be more inclined to take Duncan over Arenas, but 2007 Kobe over Duncan because of the large statistical gap in scoring AND the defense that Kobe played.

You also misinterpreted my earlier post. I said I have NEVER seen someone with ~32ppg and better efficiency have "less impact on offense" than a guy with ~18 points a game on less efficiency...

[West-Side]

Jordan was in his prime for all of his rings? Not what I've been led to believe, certainly not in 1998. Kobe may have been in his prime in 2010, but he wasn't at his peak was he? I believe most say he began to fall off the following year?

Are you serious? :oldlol:
2013 Spurs had ZERO superstars.

Popovich has won 50+ games with this team since 1998.
Phil Jackson won with HOF talent every time (Gasol, Kobe, Shaq, Pippen, Rodman, Jordan).

In 1998, Phil still had Pippen & Rodman on the team; even if Jordan fell off a bit. They still were hella talented.

[DMAVS41]

I guess.

I don't think its crazy to say 2006 Arenas had similar impact to 2007 Duncan...at all

People really underrate offense/scoring if that's the case. Also this isn't like Kobe who is a better defender than "Hibachi". I would be more inclined to take Duncan over Arenas, but 2007 Kobe over Duncan because of the large statistical gap in scoring AND the defense that Kobe played.

You also misinterpreted my earlier post. I said I have NEVER seen someone with ~32ppg and better efficiency have "less impact" than a guy with ~18 points a game on less efficiency...again, only talking about offense here.

Yea, but I do think it's crazy to say Gilbert in 06 was as valuable as Duncan in 07. Also, you didn't say "less impact on offense" in your original post...and even then why post that? Seems obvious and never did I claim Duncan was more valuable offensively than Kobe.

So there is no point in discussing it...


Did you at least catch the example of the double standard about win shares posted earlier? How Duncan destroys Kobe in that area both in totals and per 48...yet they were used as the primary evidence for the 06 rankings? And somehow they don't matter when it comes to overall...That is an actual double standard...

[stalkerforlife]

2006

Iverson - 33 PPG, 3 RPG, 7 APG, 54% TS, .465 2PT% [25.9 PER]
10.6 WS
Bryant - 35 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG, 56% TS, .491 2PT% [28 PER]
15.3 WS
Arenas - 29 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 6.1 APG, 58% TS, .485 2PT% [23.8 PER]
13.6 WS

Most importantly,

Defensive Win Shares:

Iverson - 1.8
Bryant - 3.7
Arenas - 2.6

Duncan's - 6.9

[3.2 difference favoring Duncan]

However, in terms of offensive win shares:

Kobe - 11.6
Duncan - 3.9

[7.7 difference favoring Kobe]

Kobe also made 1st team all-defense team in 06'.

Do the ****ing math.

Class dismissed.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Aaaaahahahahah THIS is why the Kobe army is the BEST.

[ArbitraryWater]

Are you serious? :oldlol:
2013 Spurs had ZERO superstars.

Popovich has won 50+ games with this team since 1998.
Phil Jackson won with HOF talent every time (Gasol, Kobe, Shaq, Pippen, Rodman, Jordan).

In 1998, Phil still had Pippen & Rodman on the team; even if Jordan fell off a bit. They still were hella talented.

Tony Parker may have been the 3rd best player in the NBA in 2013, sure fire Superstar.

[RRR3]

Are you serious? :oldlol:
2013 Spurs had ZERO superstars.

Popovich has won 50+ games with this team since 1998.
Phil Jackson won with HOF talent every time (Gasol, Kobe, Shaq, Pippen, Rodman, Jordan).

In 1998, Phil still had Pippen & Rodman on the team; even if Jordan fell off a bit. They still were hella talented.
Has nothing to do with what I said m8. I just questioned whether MJ was in his prime in 1998 in particular, from what I've heard most believe he wasn't.

[catch24]

Yea, but I do think it's crazy to say Gilbert in 06 was as valuable as Duncan in 07. Also, you didn't say "less impact on offense" in your original post...and even then why post that? Seems obvious and never did I claim Duncan was more valuable offensively than Kobe.

True, but I never said that.

Offense? Arenas
Defense? Duncan

Duncan's scoring and overall offense in the playoffs closed the gap some, but Duncan was a MUCH MUCH MUCH better player on the defensive end.

The comparison is a bit different with Kobe, who unlike Arenas, was an all-nba defender and ELITE in stretches.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


Did you at least catch the example of the double standard about win shares posted earlier? How Duncan destroys Kobe in that area both in totals and per 48...yet they were used as the primary evidence for the 06 rankings? And somehow they don't matter when it comes to overall...That is an actual double standard...

I never used winshares, so no, I didn't catch that. Don't lump me in with other people dude.

[DMAVS41]

True, but I never said that.

Offense? Arenas
Defense? Duncan

Duncan's scoring and overall offense in the playoffs closed the gap some, but Duncan was a MUCH MUCH MUCH better player on the defensive end.

The comparison is a bit different with Kobe, who unlike Arenas, was an all-nba defender and ELITE in stretches.

Guess will have to agree to disagree.



I never used winshares, so no I didn't catch that. Don't lump me in with other people dude.


1. I wasn't lumping you in. I was showing you the real double standard you seem blind to.

2. Again...In my opinion it is absolutely bat shit crazy to think 06 Arenas was an equal player to 07 Duncan. That doesn't mean I'm right, but nothing can ever be said to move me off that at all...if we are that far apart...no point in going further.

[aj1987]

Sigh, in 1997 Bob Hill was their coach.
Gregg Popovich became their coach in 1998.

Ever since then, SA were rated that highly.
:facepalm

Robinson was injured in '97. Go look up the Spurs' DRtg in the years before that.


Again, even when Duncan declined and started playing less minutes (and even resting) SA remained one of the very best defensive teams. I don't recall any other great big man they had all those years.
From '09 to '11, when Duncan's minutes per game dropped by like 6 MPG, the Spurs went from a #5 defense to a #11 defense.

RTFP.

The couple of years when Duncan was out of it and people though he was done, the Spurs' defense dropped significantly. With Duncan's resurrection and Kawhi's emergence, the Spurs' defense picked up again.



That's a credit to Gregg Popovich as well (if not more-so).
According to that logic, Phil deserves more credit than MJ or Kobe for making those teams top 3 offenses.


Since 2006, Duncan's minutes started to decline steadily.

34.1 - 1st
34.0 - 2nd
33.7 - 3rd
31.3 - 5th
28.4 - 8th
28.2 - 11th
30.1 - 10th
29.2 - 3rd
28.9 - 3rd

Read above.


Honestly, it has a lot more to do with Pop than it did with Duncan.
Yep. Just like the Lakers and Bulls winning had more to do with Phil and not MJ or Kobe. No wonder neither of them did jackshit without Phil.


Duncan started to decline and SA still remained one of the top 5 best defensive teams in the league DESPITE them not having any great defensive anchors replacing Duncan. Still, SA were able to be one of the ten best defensive teams in the league.
Once his true decline started, they were 10th and 11th defensively. After his resurgence and Kawhi becoming what he is now, they picked up immensely on the defensive end. There's a reason why Timmy was in the DPOY conversation in '13 and made a couple of All-Defensive teams the past couple of years.


Heck, Duncan played only 28 MPG and SA were ranked 8th best team defensively.
Didn't Kobe play like 33 MPG in '11 and the Lakers were ~#5 offense in the league? Phil... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Oh, and lets not forget that the Lakers were 10th defensively the previous year during which Kobe played like 38 MPG. A drop in 5 MPF resulted in Lakers bettering their offense by 5 spots.

GOAT coach!


I think this just shows how talented of a coach Pop is.
The biggest indication for me is his ability to turn trash into gold.
What trash did he turn into gold? Danny Green is definitely one, but the guy worked his ass off. You can't credit Pop with that. If you do, the Lakers turned Kobe, who was literal trash his first couple of years, into a legend. Kobe's a system player? Might be. Never saw any success without Phil.


I mean, SA won 4 titles since he became their coach. Since Duncan they had a total of ZERO lottery picks (top 10) and have still managed to do all that.
Thanks to Duncan.


It's funny how people contribute Belichick's success to Brady and Pop's to Duncan; yet they fail to realize that there's two sides to the game.
Yeah, because at the end of the day, it's Brady who's throwing the ball and Timmy, who's shutting down the paint and putting the ball in the hoop.


Duncan hasn't been dominating offensively for years now.
Sure. As I said, he has had very good teams and they don't need him to do everything for 35+ MPG.


New England have had a top defense for years now.
They were a top 5 defense like 4 times since BB. Since '10, they were ranked 8th, 15th, 9th, 10th, 8th, and 5th. Hardly a top defense. A top defense, IMO, is a team ranked 5th or better.

Look at their offense though. The one which Brady runs: 1st, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 1st.

If that still doesn't work for you, look at how Brady's playing this season. At 38 years. Dude is arguably the best QB in the league over guys like Rodgers, Newton, Brees, etc..


Yet, they don't necessarily have great talent.
The Spurs have had great defensive role-players. Kawhi, Timmy, and Green are all absolutely tremendous defenders.


The consistency can be directly attributed to how great of strategists Pop & Belichick are and more importantly their ability to not only develop players but utilize their biggest strengths and mix it to team needs.

So wait. Let me get this straight. You want to credit Pop and Bill for their respective teams' success, but don't want to give Phil credit for Kobe and MJ's? If Pop and BB are the reason why Brady and Timmy are successful, Phil is the reason why MJ and Kobe have rings.


Are you serious? :oldlol:
2013 Spurs had ZERO superstars.

Popovich has won 50+ games with this team since 1998.
Phil Jackson won with HOF talent every time (Gasol, Kobe, Shaq, Pippen, Rodman, Jordan).

In 1998, Phil still had Pippen & Rodman on the team; even if Jordan fell off a bit. They still were hella talented.
Tim Duncan was in MVP and DPOY talks, TP was in MVP talks, Kawhi was being talked about as being the next Pippen and was already a great defensive player. Then you have role-players like Green and Manu. Green was/is lights out from 3 and an ELITE defender.

DUNCAN won 50+ games with the Spurs since '98. If you continue to use the same logic, give Phil credit for ALL of Kobe's rings.

[catch24]

1. I wasn't lumping you in. I was showing you the real double standard you seem blind to.

Well, not gonna take sides... but people that use "winshares" to make an argument for "Player X > Player Y" are just being lazy. They need to do more research and understand there are holes using that garbage metric. Really that simple.



2. Again...In my opinion it is absolutely bat shit crazy to think 06 Arenas was an equal player to 07 Duncan. That doesn't mean I'm right, but nothing can ever be said to move me off that at all...if we are that far apart...no point in going further.

Already said I would take 2007 Duncan over 2006 Arenas.

Just think they had similar impacts is all. Arenas beasted on offense, while Duncan dominated on defense. The true distinction is when you factor in the lack of defense for Arenas - it wasn't bad, but it wasn't like Kobe's either, which was, IMO, elite for his position.