Why is Mike Tyson so overrated?

[stalkerforlife]

Tyson is great entertainment, I love the guy. However, when people try to name him as the best boxer ever or even top 5, I cringe.

Holyfield owned his soul.

Lewis obliterated him.

Douglas knocked his ass out and Tyson never sought a rematch.

He is the most entertaining boxer of all time to me, but early in his career, he was beating some straight up scrubs. If you actually posed a challenge to Tyson, he withered and his mental weakness prevailed.

Top 10, maybe...but not top 5.

[~primetime~]

you watched the ESPN 30 for 30 lol

[~primetime~]

Tyson is barely top-100

http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/ring_80_best.htm

[stalkerforlife]

you watched the ESPN 30 for 30 lol

Saw a glimpse of it.

But i've always maintained Tyson is definitely not top 5 all time.

Very mentally weak once challenged.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Tyson is great entertainment, I love the guy. However, when people try to name him as the best boxer ever or even top 5, I cringe.

Holyfield owned his soul.

Lewis obliterated him.

Douglas knocked his ass out and Tyson never sought a rematch.

He is the most entertaining boxer of all time to me, but early in his career, he was beating some straight up scrubs. If you actually posed a challenge to Tyson, he withered and his mental weakness prevailed.

Top 10, maybe...but not top 5.

Main reason why I like him is the bolded. I know he's no top 5 boxer.

[SCREWstonRockets]

tyson was a network tv star. all action all the time. straight power and knockouts. they managed his career perfectly until Gus died, the only person Tyson would listen to. but man he was a legit star. imagine tyson in his prime, today in this age of digital and social media.

hes only regarded that highly in the minds of casual fans. but if he was as mentally, as strong as his boxing was, who knows what he could have accomplished

[NBAplayoffs2001]

tyson was a network tv star. all action all the time. straight power and knockouts. they managed his career perfectly until Gus died, the only person Tyson would listen to. but man he was a legit star. imagine tyson in his prime, today in this age of digital and social media.

hes only regarded that highly in the minds of casual fans. but if he was as mentally, as strong as his boxing was, who knows what he could have accomplished

Only issue is that today's boxers does not have the quality of the fighters in the 90s: Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield, Ruddock, Old man Foreman.

[Rooster]

Saw a glimpse of it.

But i've always maintained Tyson is definitely not top 5 all time.

Very mentally weak once challenged.

He's not even a top 10 heavyweight of all time :no:

Casual fans tend to overrate popular fighters like him:rolleyes:

[Lebron23]

He's a very exciting fighter. One of his main weaknesses was taller opponents who used Jabs, and Tyson had a $hitty stamina.

[SugarHill]

no one seeing tyson at his peak

[~primetime~]

Why is Mike Tyson so overrated?


Top 10, maybe...but not top 5.


Asks why Tyson is overrated...then overrates Tyson

[West-Side]

He's like Shaq to me.
Top 10 career, but a top three fighter in his absolute prime.

He wasn't in his prime when he fought Lewis & Hollyfield, smarten up son.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Personality.

[KevinNYC]

Douglas knocked his ass out and Tyson never sought a rematch.

This could be why. Wiki:

The defeated Tyson clamored for a rematch and Douglas was offered more money than he had ever made before for a fight. Not wanting to deal with Tyson's camp or his promoter King, Douglas decided to make his first defense against #1 contender Evander Holyfield, who had watched the new champion dethrone Tyson from ringside in Tokyo. Douglas came into the October 25, 1990 fight at 246 pounds, 15 pounds heavier than he was for the Tyson match and also the heaviest he'd weighed in for a fight since a 1985 bout with Dion Simpson, in which he tipped the scale at just over 247 pounds.
In the third round of the fight, Douglas attempted to hit Holyfield with a hard uppercut that he telegraphed. Holyfield avoided the uppercut and hit an off-balance Douglas with a straight right to the chin to knock him down. Douglas did not get up from the punch and lost his championship, electing to retire after the fight.


Tyson's manager was nicknamed Cus, not Gus, Constantine "Cus" D'Amato and supposedly Kevin Rooney was doing OK with Tyson until Tyson fired him.

It's significant for Tyson's legacy that Buster Douglass KOed him before he went to prison.

[KevinNYC]

no one seeing tyson at his peak
what does this mean?

[KevinNYC]

He's like Shaq to me.
Top 10 career, but a top three fighter in his absolute prime.

He wasn't in his prime when he fought Lewis & Hollyfield, smarten up son.
What about Buster Douglas?

[Tarik One]

tyson was a network tv star. all action all the time. straight power and knockouts. they managed his career perfectly until Gus died, the only person Tyson would listen to. but man he was a legit star. imagine tyson in his prime, today in this age of digital and social media.

hes only regarded that highly in the minds of casual fans. but if he was as mentally, as strong as his boxing was, who knows what he could have accomplished

I'm with you on the management part, but in regards to skill Tyson would have inevitably declined towards the early and mid 90s. In fact, Tyson never had a fight where he maintained his head movement/bob and weave past the sixth round, even when he was with Kevin Rooney. The eye test should tell you that while Tyson was impressive vs scared fighters and/or guys with weak chins, he lost interest and became discouraged after 6 or 7 rounds. When guys were still fighting back after 6 or 7 and trying to win, he lost.

No way a prime Tyson steamrolls through the likes of Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and even Foreman. Also, none of these guys would have been scared of him.

I've never bought into the idea that Tyson would have dominated for a much longer time under D'Amato, Rooney.

[Lebron23]

People didn't know that Mike Tyson was screwed by the referees in the Douglas Fight.

It was a long count. Douglas was down for almost 14 to 15 seconds. it should have been a KO victory for Iron Mike in the 8th round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRVIHKRe8LE

[Thorpesaurous]

The entertainment value was already mentioned, but Tony Kornheiser talks about sometimes, and really expresses just how entertaining he was. Tony says of all the things he's covered, which is a huge span, Olympics, Jordan, Bird/Magic, Super Bowls, you name it, he says the most awe inspiring moments he experienced were Tyson Fights.


80s Tyson was a legitimately superb fighter. A little different than most of the heavyweight prototypes. His lack of length let him get inside guys, and his short arms gave him clearance to land brutal punches in ranges that are otherwise unavailable. He's really cut from the same cloth as Joe Frazier.

But if he existed now he'd suck weight to get down a weight class. In combination with his getting out of prison, the training / dietary sort of revolution (probably in combination with a variety of advancing chemical resources) just changed the scale of Heavyweight Boxing. There were excellent really big boxers prior to that, Ali was big, but Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, and others just begot bigger and bigger guys. Holyfield was a puffed up guy. Spinks was a feux contender who was puffed up.


But the problem with people making hard and fast rankings is that it takes out the experience of the moment. That matters, and might matter more than anything else involved, which probably is a lot about why people defend the athletes (music, film, etc ...) of their formative years, because that's when those experiences are novel and most meaningful. Outside of a few exceptions (Like Jackie Robinson, Ali's fight against Vietnam, and stuff like that), the moment is often overlooked.

[~primetime~]

The entertainment value was already mentioned, but Tony Kornheiser talks about sometimes, and really expresses just how entertaining he was. Tony says of all the things he's covered, which is a huge span, Olympics, Jordan, Bird/Magic, Super Bowls, you name it, he says the most awe inspiring moments he experienced were Tyson Fights.


80s Tyson was a legitimately superb fighter. A little different than most of the heavyweight prototypes. His lack of length let him get inside guys, and his short arms gave him clearance to land brutal punches in ranges that are otherwise unavailable. He's really cut from the same cloth as Joe Frazier.

But if he existed now he'd suck weight to get down a weight class. In combination with his getting out of prison, the training / dietary sort of revolution (probably in combination with a variety of advancing chemical resources) just changed the scale of Heavyweight Boxing. There were excellent really big boxers prior to that, Ali was big, but Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, and others just begot bigger and bigger guys. Holyfield was a puffed up guy. Spinks was a feux contender who was puffed up.


But the problem with people making hard and fast rankings is that it takes out the experience of the moment. That matters, and might matter more than anything else involved, which probably is a lot about why people defend the athletes (music, film, etc ...) of their formative years, because that's when those experiences are novel and most meaningful. Outside of a few exceptions (Like Jackie Robinson, Ali's fight against Vietnam, and stuff like that), the moment is often overlooked.
Yes I am an 80s kid, I think I am your age Thorpe...and I watched every single Tyson fight starting with Trevor Berbick...I can still remember seeing him for the first time vs Berbick thinking "damn that guy is a TANK!"

His fights were truly 'special'...every one of them was a big event

The heavyweight division in general was special in the 90s, an awesome thing to witness, I miss it.

[ThePhantomCreep]

In terms of resume, Tyson not a top 10 heavyweight.

In terms of peak skills, many of the fighters ranked above him would get crushed.

[Rooster]

I'm with you on the management part, but in regards to skill Tyson would have inevitably declined towards the early and mid 90s. In fact, Tyson never had a fight where he maintained his head movement/bob and weave past the sixth round, even when he was with Kevin Rooney. The eye test should tell you that while Tyson was impressive vs scared fighters and/or guys with weak chins, he lost interest and became discouraged after 6 or 7 rounds. When guys were still fighting back after 6 or 7 and trying to win, he lost.

No way a prime Tyson steamrolls through the likes of Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and even Foreman. Also, none of these guys would have been scared of him.

I've never bought into the idea that Tyson would have dominated for a much longer time under D'Amato, Rooney.

Tyson has no father figure to listened to and respect when Cus died. Cus would probably found a way for Tyson to stay in the ring longer and focus in boxing instead of Tyson becoming a ticking time bomb ready to explode. Just listen to Tyson interviews, he is well verse when it comes to boxing and I'm pretty sure Cus has a lot to do with it.

As far as those aforementioned fighters, I think Tyso could have probably outfought this guys. Bowe is a bad example, he could have ducked him like he did with Lewis.

[Lebron23]

Don King also ruined Mike Tyson. After Tyson KO'ed Michael Spinks. Iron Mike fired Kevin Rooney. Tyson's skills in the boxing ring noticeably declined, and 18 months later he was defeated by Buster Douglas.

[DonDadda59]

Every time Tyson faced a taller fighter who had actual Boxing skills, he not only lost- he got knocked the f*ck out. People act like the Buster Douglas loss was some fluke, but Buster straight dominated Tyson the entire fight. If anything was a fluke, it was the KD Tyson scored. Holyfield beats Mike everyday of the week and twice on Sunday at any point of their respective careers. Same with Lennox.

That is the reason he refused to fight Bowe (used the excuse that they were friends) and even old man Foreman.

[Thorpesaurous]

Yes I am an 80s kid, I think I am your age Thorpe...and I watched every single Tyson fight starting with Trevor Berbick...I can still remember seeing him for the first time vs Berbick thinking "damn that guy is a TANK!"

His fights were truly 'special'...every one of them was a big event

The heavyweight division in general was special in the 90s, an awesome thing to witness, I miss it.


I think we are. And you're absolutely right. I remember having illegal cable back then, and my house filling up with my friends, and uncles and cousins. Drinking and eating and waiting for the fight to start, there was a tension that doesn't exist in world today when it feels like everything is available right as it happens and it only matters in so much as how it informs whatever the next things is. And the fights were fast and brutal, it was like a pop.

And when the cable went digital, and I still had a descrambler box, and they'd occasionally try to shoot them out before a big fight like that. We had an extra one we'd keep unplugged just in case something happened. And after that we would pay for the fights. I remember paying for the Tyson Holyfield Fan Man fight and getting a keg of Icehouse and it felt sort of how only a Super Bowl feels now. I know Paq Mayweather did huge numbers, but it didn't feel anything like those Tyson fights.

[KevinNYC]

People didn't know that Mike Tyson was screwed by the referees in the Douglas Fight.

It was a long count. Douglas was down for almost 14 to 15 seconds. it should have been a KO victory for Iron Mike in the 8th round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRVIHKRe8LE

I don't think so at all. Buster Douglas is listening to and responding to the ref's count. It's called a 10 count. You listen to the ref count. There was no time left in that round. All he had to do was get to his feet. He came back and won the next round pretty decisively.

Even if Tyson won that fight, Douglas has exposed him. Listen to how the announcers were talking about the fight by the 7 round.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11849961

[Rooster]

Every time Tyson faced a taller fighter who had actual Boxing skills, he not only lost- he got knocked the f*ck out. People act like the Buster Douglas loss was some fluke, but Buster straight dominated Tyson the entire fight. If anything was a fluke, it was the KD Tyson scored. Holyfield beats Mike everyday of the week and twice on Sunday at any point of their respective careers. Same with Lennox.

That is the reason he refused to fight Bowe (used the excuse that they were friends) and even old man Foreman.

Razor Ruddock was taller and skilled :confusedshrug: but I think he fell so much in love with his power by the time he fought Tyson.

[KevinNYC]

You can also see in that replay that when Tyson got KOed he hit the canvas at 1:51 and got to his feet at 1:37

[warriorfan]

Mike Tyson had some of the most raw talent out of any fighter ever.

If Cus D'Amato never dies then Tyson ends up being one of the GOATs.

[KevinNYC]

Mike Tyson had some of the most raw talent out of any fighter ever.

If Cus D'Amato never dies then Tyson ends up being one of the GOATs.
If Cus keeps Mike from slipping. That's a big if. Tyson wasn't the first super successful guy to get to the top and **** it up. His trainer said he stopped doing road work before the Buster Douglas fight. Tyson seemed pretty determined in the late 80's to **** up.

Even if Cus was his father figure, lots of kids rebel against their father.
Given his marriage and his mental health issues, it was probably bound to happen at some point. Even if he beat Douglas, Holfield was waiting on him.

[~primetime~]

I think we are. And you're absolutely right. I remember having illegal cable back then, and my house filling up with my friends, and uncles and cousins. Drinking and eating and waiting for the fight to start, there was a tension that doesn't exist in world today when it feels like everything is available right as it happens and it only matters in so much as how it informs whatever the next things is. And the fights were fast and brutal, it was like a pop.

And when the cable went digital, and I still had a descrambler box, and they'd occasionally try to shoot them out before a big fight like that. We had an extra one we'd keep unplugged just in case something happened. And after that we would pay for the fights. I remember paying for the Tyson Holyfield Fan Man fight and getting a keg of Icehouse and it felt sort of how only a Super Bowl feels now. I know Paq Mayweather did huge numbers, but it didn't feel anything like those Tyson fights.
You should watch the 30 for 30 "Chasing Tyson", it's good stuff.

Made me remember all sorts details surrounding Holyfield-Tyson that I had forgotten about.