2000-2002 Shaq is the equivalent of 1991-1993 MJ [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 11:46 AM

I think that should settle any "Kobe > Shaq" questions, if you give Shaq MJ (Kobe got Shaq, same help/impact), they probably win 6 straight.

Only a fool would make that comparison to begin with.

00-04 Shaq >>> 06-10 Kobe (everyone agrees that Peak Shaq >>> Peak Kobe)
05-06 Shaq >> 11-12 Kobe (this is rather obvious also).
Now that we have that out of the way...

00-05 Kobe VS 95-99 Shaq (Pre-Peak Shaq VS Pre-Peak Kobe)
(playoff stats) (5 year samples for both)

Shaq : 27 / 11 / 3.4 on 58%TS --- (38-mpg)
+2.0 -bpg ||| [***28.1 PER***]
---------
---------
Kobe : 26 / 5.4 / 5.1 on 52%TS --- (43-mpg)
+1.5 -spg ||| [***21.4 PER***]

Don't compare Kobe to Jordan, Kareem or Shaq... not now, not ever.

That's why I when people act like it's blasphemous to rank someone like Hakeem over Kobe. They each won 2 titles as the man, but could you imagine if you gave him the perimeter equivalent of Shaq with peak Jordan? How many titles you think they win?

Agreed.
Yeah Hakeem only won 2 titles as "the man" but that is the same as Kobe.

Give young Hakeem the support of a player like Peak Shaq (or a comparable guard like 91-93 Jordan) for multiple years and you don't think he could potentially win 2/3 titles at a minimum?

Prime Hakeem has better playoff scoring stats then Kobe while also being 25x the defensive force.
Hakeem even has comparable and or better longevity.
There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about ranking him above Bryant All-Time.

Magic 32

11-14-2015, 11:49 AM

And throw Lebron 2012-2014 in there too

http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/kawhi-leonard-rare-smile-dot-gid.gif

ArbitraryWater

11-14-2015, 11:59 AM

And throw Lebron 2012-2014 in there too

yup, 2009-2014 Bron on that level for sure.

That's why I :lol when people act like it's blasphemous to rank someone like Hakeem over Kobe. They each won 2 titles as the man, but could you imagine if you gave him the perimeter equivalent of Shaq with peak Jordan? How many titles you think they win?

exactly

Hakeem and Jordan 6 peat, too

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-14-2015, 12:08 PM

I always said that Shaq's peak = MDE

Jordan's 1991-93 peak was only slightly better, and that's because he was never a liability down the stretch (freethrows).

Some people take Kobe because of the resume, and the fact his prime coincided with most of the 2000s. For me, the fact Shaq had a greater prime, peak, and was better in the playoffs and finals basically seals the deal.

Magic 32

11-14-2015, 12:16 PM

HighFlyer23

11-14-2015, 12:20 PM

I'll give Shaq the nod because of his ability to protect the basket

Gileraracer

11-14-2015, 12:29 PM

Who won more rings without the other, Kobe or Shaq? :coleman:

SouBeachTalents

11-14-2015, 12:31 PM

Who won more rings without the other, Kobe or Shaq? :coleman:

Havlicek > Russell too then right

dhsilv

11-14-2015, 12:33 PM

Hmm

Shaq VORP

9.3 6.8 5.5

MJ VORP

9.8 8.3 8.9

Shaq winshare

18.6 14.9 13.2

MJ Winshare

20.3 17.7 17.2

You might have a case if you hold your argument on exclusively the playoffs, but during the season, you gotta actually play in the games. You can't impact a game you don't play in.

90sgoat

11-14-2015, 12:34 PM

dhsilv

11-14-2015, 12:37 PM

Shaq played 8 seasons during the 90s where he could have won a ship. He could not beat Hakeem with a team of role players and he got owned repeatedly and swept by the Greg Ostertag Utah Jazz.

You simply can not claim Shaq to be MDE when he 2 years before his so called prime got owned by a team which center rotation was Antoine Carr, Greg Ostertag and Adam Keefe.

Shaq won once Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Robinson et al got old and even then his only challenger was Duncan and they took the championship from right under his nose.

Shaq was not leaps and bounds better than the rest of the centers in the 90s, he simply was not, look at the head to head stats.

Shaq looked so dominant because there was not a single center left in the league to guard him.

In shaq's defense he actually worked out in 2000, might have been the first and only time in his career...

ImKobe

11-14-2015, 12:45 PM

91-93 MJ didn't need the offense to get him the ball to get his points and 91-93 MJ was the closer on his team.

Do you think Jordan would seriously be considered a GOAT if he had Pippen dominate a Game 7 to get their team to the Finals the 1st time while he put up 18 points or if Pippen closed out a Finals game on the road with Jordan fouled out?

Here are pivotal games Kobe took over to help the Lakers three-peat

2000 - WCF Game 6 game-saving block, 25/12/7 4 blocks Game 7, Finals Game 4
2001 - the WC Playoffs, where Kobe was the best player in all of the series with Shaq himself admitting that during the run
2002 - Kings Game 6 & 7

Shaq was dominant because no one in the league could match him physically but he was a terrible shooter and you couldn't exactly put the ball in his hands in crunch time because he would get fouled instantly.

Pippen was a scrub compared to 2001 Kobe so please...Shaq had a player as good as 91-93 MJ playing on HIS team.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 12:46 PM

Shaq played 8 seasons during the 90s where he could have won a ship.

More like 2 years actually.
95 & 96.

He was stuck with shitty casts in all the other years without a single legit All-Star at his side.

95 = Made Finals. Outplayed Hakeem over the first 3 games and pretty much played Peak Hakeem to a wash over the full series.
His supporting cast got badly outplayed.

96 = Made CFinals. Lost to 96 Bulls (GOAT team). Starting PF and 3rd best player (Grant) got injured before the series. Penny got outplayed by Pippen.
Was absolutely dominant individually in that series.

You simply can not claim Shaq to be MDE when he 2 years before his so called prime got owned by a team which center rotation was Antoine Carr, Greg Ostertag and Adam Keefe.

Basketball isn't golf you dummy.
Shaq was absolutely dominant in that series but his supporting cast played like complete shit.

Van Exel : 9.0-ppg / 4-apg on 36%TS
Eddie J : 15 / 3-apg on 52%TS
Kobe : 10 / 1-apg on 37%

Shaq before his first title in his 8th year won many more playoff series then Jordan did before his first title in his 7th year.

Shaq's Prime Playoff stats are better then anyone not named Jordan.

He was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995 and 2005
He made the Finals in his 3rd year, his 8th/9th/10th year, his 12th year and his 14th year.
He 3peated as the man something only Russell and Jordan also accomplished.
He won 4 titles total and made the Finals 6 times.

Shaq has the stats, the team success and everything else you could hope for in abundance.
He is one of the strongest GOAT candidate along with Jordan & Kareem.

:pimp:

catch24

11-14-2015, 12:55 PM

More like 2 years actually.
95 & 96.

He was stuck with shitty casts in all the other years without a single legit All-Star at his side.

95 = Made Finals. Outplayed Hakeem over the first 3 games and pretty much played Peak Hakeem to a wash over the full series.
His supporting cast got badly outplayed.

96 = Made CFinals. Lost to 96 Bulls (GOAT team). Starting PF and 3rd best player (Grant) got injured before the series. Penny got outplayed by Pippen.
Was absolutely dominant individually in that series.

Basketball isn't golf you dummy.
Shaq was absolutely dominant in that series but his supporting cast played like complete shit.

Van Exel : 9.0-ppg / 4 on 36%TS
Eddie J : 15 / 3 on 52%TS
Kobe : 10 / 1 on 37%

Shaq before his first title in his 8th year won many more playoff series then Jordan did before his first title in his 7th year.

Shaq's Prime Playoff stats are better then anyone not named Jordan.

He was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995 and 2005
He made the Finals in his 3rd year, his 10th year and his 14th year.
He 3peated as the man something only Russell and Jordan also accomplished.
He won 4 titles total and made the Finals 6 times.

Shaq had the stats, the team success and everything else you could hope for in abundance.
He is one of the strongest GOAT candidate along with Jordan & Kareem.

Your shitty and illogical argument don't hold any water bud.
:pimp:

:oldlol:

Popped that 'ignant' like a zit. I remember having this discussion with either him or 3ball a few weeks back. Dude literally blamed Shaq for Orlando losing in the finals (despite Shaq playing Hakeem to a statistical draw), and also claimed he was "outplayed by Ostertag" in 1998 (despite having superior stats and a pretty good series (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805160UTA.html) all-around)... It's just lies and propaganda to sell the "MJ = most dominant, and its not close!!" bullshit.

Wouldn't be surprised if those two cornball posters were the same guy.

Anaximandro1

11-14-2015, 12:56 PM

At his best, Jordan controlled every facet of the game, on both ends of the court ...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qYFDgFwdANc/VkdnXXW5T5I/AAAAAAAAE5o/HCboK5iVf10/s1600/200.jpg

kennethgriffin

11-14-2015, 12:58 PM

jordan didnt need pippen to save his ass in the most important game of his life like shaq needed kobe in game 7 wcf 2000

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 01:01 PM

jordan didnt need pippen to save his ass in the most important game of his life like shaq needed kobe in game 7 wcf 2000

Bleh.
Shaq carried the Lakers to a 3-1 lead over the first 4 games of that series despite Kobe playing poorly.

Over those games Shaq averaged : 29 / 12 / 4.3-apg / 3-bpg on 56%TS

Over those games Kobe averaged : 17 / 5-apg and was shit in 3/4 games + 2/3 wins.

+++++++

Then in G5 with a chance to end the series.
----
Shaq : 31 / 21 / 3-ast / 2-BLK on 61%TS
Kobe : 17 / 5 / 4-ast / 6-TOV / 6-PF on 50%TS

Kobe playing well in G7 was just making up for his shitty play in 2 of their first 3 wins and in G5 where they should have ended the series.

Pippen was far better then 2000 Kobe in the 91 & 92 playoffs and unlike #8 he was not injured and mostly irrelevant in the Finals.

ImKobe

11-14-2015, 01:02 PM

:oldlol:

Popped that 'ignant' like a zit. I remember having this discussion with either him or 3ball a few weeks back. Dude literally blamed Shaq for Orlando losing in the finals (despite Shaq playing Hakeem to a statistical draw, and also claimed he was outplayed by Ostertag in 1998 (despite having superior stats and a pretty good series all-around)... It's just lies and propaganda to sell the "MJ = most dominant, and its not close!!" bullshit.

Wouldn't be surprised if those two cornball posters were the same guy.

played Hakeem to a statistical draw?

Hakeem averaged 33/12/6 2 stls 2 bpg 2.8 TO

Shaq averaged 28/13/6 0.3 stls 2.5 bpg 5.3 TO

not to mention that Penny had better overall production than Drexler...

Magic got swept because the Rockets were better from deep and because they lost both close games, starting with a 2 pt loss Game 1 at home..

It's not like the Rockets had a much better team because Grant and Penny were at least as good (if not better) than Drexler and Horry and Shaq was in his athletic prime while Hakeem was at the tail end of his. Should have at least been a 6 game series with the Magic having HCA.

ShawkFactory

11-14-2015, 01:03 PM

ArbitraryWater

11-14-2015, 01:04 PM

played Hakeem to a statistical draw?

Hakeem averaged 33/12/6 2 stls 2 bpg 2.8 TO

Shaq averaged 28/13/6 0.3 stls 2.5 bpg 5.3 TO

not to mention that Penny had better overall production than Drexler...

Magic got swept because the Rockets were better from deep and because they lost both close games, starting with a 2 pt loss Game 1 at home..

It's not like the Rockets had a much better team because Grant and Penny were at least as good (if not better) than Drexler and Horry and Shaq was in his athletic prime while Hakeem was at the tail end of his prime. Should have at least been a 6 game series with the Magic having HCA.

Is there a mention of efficiency here? :oldlol:

Its funny, because you go on to mention Penny outplayed Drexler, and the only way that were to be true, is if you DO include efficiency...

so you pick your spots just where you need them, to fit your biased argument :applause:

ImKobe

11-14-2015, 01:07 PM

Is there a mention of efficiency here? :oldlol:

Its funny, because you go on to mention Penny outplayed Drexler, and the only way that were to be true, is if you DO include efficiency...

so you pick your spots just where you need them, to fit your biased argument :applause:

Turning the ball over almost twice as much while putting up 5 less points per game is not playing to a statistical draw

Hakeem had the edge because he got the ball out to his shooters and he wasn't a liability at the end of games when they needed him to make free throws. Magic choked the series away twice..

ImKobe

11-14-2015, 01:10 PM

So..you just said 00-02 Kobe was as good as 91-93 MJ...

not in 2000, but even then he had big games where he looked as unstoppable as MJ, from game-winners to game-saving blocks to leading his team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks in the biggest game of their season in a must-win situation in a big 4th quarter comeback...

2001 WC Playoffs 32/6/7 a game on great efficiency, ~10 points a game in 4th quarters, 2002 Game 6 & 7 vs the Kings, destroyed the Nets in the Finals..

Pippen is a scrub compared to Kobe.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 01:11 PM

played Hakeem to a statistical draw?

Shaq was better statistically especially over the first 3 games.
Here are there stats over those 3 games.

Shaq : 29 / 12.7 / 7.3-apg / 2.0-bpg on 62%TS
Keem : 32 / 10.3 / 5.3-apg / 2.7-bpg on 50%TS

:pimp:

not to mention that Penny had better overall production than Drexler...

Maybe slightly better.
What about Horry who badly outplayed Grant?
What about the Rocket's main offensive roleplayers who absolutely destroyed the choking Magic roleplayers?

I guess they don't matter.

Magic got swept because

Magic got swept because the Houston roleplayers actually showed up and played very well (while the Magic roleplayers didn't) and because Anderson choked away G1.

It's not like the Rockets had a much better team

A team is only as good as it performs.
Names on paper mean nothing.
The Rockets outside of Hakeem performed far better then the Magic outside of Shaq.

catch24

11-14-2015, 01:12 PM

Is there a mention of efficiency here? :oldlol:

Its funny, because you go on to mention Penny outplayed Drexler, and the only way that were to be true, is if you DO include efficiency...

so you pick your spots just where you need them, to fit your biased argument :applause:

Exactly.

Just look up colts18 post (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1242882) regarding the H2H.

Its one of the greatest breakdowns I've ever seen (as far as shutting myths down).

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 01:15 PM

Pippen is a scrub compared to Kobe.

Only in your mind.

00 Kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4.4-apg on 52%TS (19.4 PER)
02 Kobe : 26 / 5.8 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS (pre-Finals stats) (20.5 PER ~ full run)

92 Pippen : 20 / 8.8 / 6.7-apg on 54%TS (20.1 PER)
91 Pippen : 21 / 8.9 / 5.8-apg on 56%TS (22.0 PER)

Stats obviously don't show the sizable defensive disparity in Pippen's favor.
They were both great #2's... Kobe was not better let alone far better though.
Not in my current opinion anyway.

ShawkFactory

11-14-2015, 01:16 PM

not in 2000, but even then he had big games where he looked as unstoppable as MJ, from game-winners to game-saving blocks to leading his team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks in the biggest game of their season in a must-win situation in a big 4th quarter comeback...

2001 WC Playoffs 32/6/7 a game on great efficiency, ~10 points a game in 4th quarters, 2002 Game 6 & 7 vs the Kings, destroyed the Nets in the Finals..

Pippen is a scrub compared to Kobe.
Pippen might be a scrub compared to Kobe. 2001 Kobe is not the player 91-93 MJ was.

Just because he was clutch doesn't mean he was capable of that consistent absolute dominance. We're talking about the pinnacle of modern basketball.

Kobe was great though.

ImKobe

11-14-2015, 01:16 PM

Shaq was better statistically especially over the first 3 games.
Here are there stats over those 3 games.

Shaq : 29 / 12.7 / 7.3-apg / 2.0-bpg on 62%TS
Keem : 32 / 10.3 / 5.3-apg / 2.7-bpg on 50%TS

:pimp:

Maybe slightly better.
What about Horry who badly outplayed Grant?
What about the Rocket's main offensive roleplayers who absolutely destroyed the choking Magic roleplayers?

I guess they don't matter.

Magic got swept because the Houston roleplayers actually showed up and played very well (while the Magic roleplayers didn't) and because Anderson choked away G1.

A team is only as good as it performs.
Names on paper mean nothing.
The Rockets outside of Hakeem performed far better then the Magic outside of Shaq.

first 3 games LOL? Like Game 4 (close-out game) doesn't matter one bit? :biggums:

Hakeem was a better player than Shaq because of experience and skill, Shaq's physical dominance and higher FG% because of lobs and putbacks is not comparable to what Hakeem was doing, from distributing the ball efficienctly to his shooters to spacing the floor to making clutch FTs and long-range jumpers.

Hakeem was shooting 15-footers while Shaq was catching lobs.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 01:23 PM

first 3 games LOL? Like Game 4 (close-out game) doesn't matter one bit? :biggums:

Hakeem was a better player than Shaq because of experience and skill, Shaq's physical dominance and higher FG% because of lobs and putbacks is not comparable to what Hakeem was doing, from distributing the ball efficienctly to his shooters to spacing the floor to making clutch FTs and long-range jumpers.

Hakeem was shooting 15-footers while Shaq was catching lobs.

Sorry but you're full of sh*t.
You are either delusional or never watched that series.

Shaq was incredibly skilled and was scoring many of his baskets off jump-hooks while displaying beautiful Hakeem-esque footwork.
You talk about Shaq like he was DeAndre fukkin Jordan... goddamn.

He also was an amazing passer and averaged more APG in that series despite his shooters sucking ass compared to Hakeem's.

Hakeem DID NOT do a better job of creating looks for his guys or passing his guys just shot better on their looks.
If you watched the series you would know that.

And yes the closeout game matters and that was the one game where Hakeem clearly outplayed Shaq.
Thats why for the series as a whole I basically have it as a wash between the two. Over the first 3 games though Shaq DID perform better.

catch24

11-14-2015, 01:27 PM

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 01:29 PM

Lobs and putbacks? Not that this should be ignored in production (because after all...its about putting the ball in the hoop), but you have a gross misunderstanding of Shaq's game if you honestly believe that.

Shaq scored most of his points on ISO postups not on lobs or whatever bull that guy said.
You don't average 7.3+apg over multiple games if you're just a lob finisher. :facepalm
The offense was ran through Shaq and he created most of his own offense and tons of open shots for his teammates.

HOoopCityJones

11-14-2015, 01:30 PM

Lobs and putbacks? Not that this should be ignored in production (because after all...its about putting the ball in the hoop), but you have a gross misunderstanding of Shaq's game if you honestly believe that.

I can assure you Shaq was more than "dunks" and "putbacks". Watch the tape again. While you're at it LEARN to use efficiency in statistical comparisons. Withholding that information is dishonest on your part.

His teardrop from about 10 to 15ft was especially deadly. :cheers:

catch24

11-14-2015, 01:50 PM

Shaq scored most of his points on ISO postups not on lobs or whatever bull that guy said.
You don't average 7.3+apg over multiple games if you're just a lob finisher. :facepalm
The offense was ran through Shaq and he created most of his own offense and tons of open shots for his teammates.

His teardrop from about 10 to 15ft was especially deadly. :cheers:

Yup :cheers:

Among "lobs" and "putbacks", dude had a quick drop step (and subsequent spin), great strep-through, knew how to use his pivot well, and angled/used his body to score over double/triple teams. The teardrop or "baby hook" as I like to call it was probably his signature move though.

90sgoat

11-14-2015, 01:52 PM

In shaq's defense he actually worked out in 2000, might have been the first and only time in his career...

Worked out as in gained weight?

Imo, Shaq tried too much to play a sophisticated offense in his younger years, when really his main weapon always was his impossible size.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:00 PM

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:01 PM

.
Jordan's 1991-1993 versus Shaq's 2000-2002:

REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP

PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48

FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd

Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%

90sgoat

11-14-2015, 02:03 PM

:oldlol:

Popped that 'ignant' like a zit. I remember having this discussion with either him or 3ball a few weeks back. Dude literally blamed Shaq for Orlando losing in the finals (despite Shaq playing Hakeem to a statistical draw), and also claimed he was "outplayed by Ostertag" in 1998 (despite having superior stats and a pretty good series (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805160UTA.html) all-around)... It's just lies and propaganda to sell the "MJ = most dominant, and its not close!!" bullshit.

Wouldn't be surprised if those two cornball posters were the same guy.

Shaq stats in 98 against Jazz:

Game 1: 19 points, 6-16 fg, 7-16 ft, 8 reb, 2bk, 7 tov
Game 2: 31 points, 14-21 fg, 3-8 ft, 7 reb, 0 blk, 2 tov
Game 3: 39 points, 17-30 fg, 5-13 ft, 15 reb, 1blk, 5 tov
Game 4: 38 points, 14-24 fg, 10-18 ft, 7 reb, 1blk

Yes he scored well, however he rebounded like shit, particularly for his size, that's less than Lebron rebounds and in 4 games he only amassed 4 blocks, again that's just shit. Shaq was a lazy ass defender most of his career.

In that series Karl Malone averaged 30-10-5 shooting 51% and 83% FT.

Why is Karl Malone not deemed among the MDE of all time?

SouBeachTalents

11-14-2015, 02:07 PM

Shaq stats in 98 against Jazz:

Game 1: 19 points, 6-16 fg, 7-16 ft, 8 reb, 2bk, 7 tov
Game 2: 31 points, 14-21 fg, 3-8 ft, 7 reb, 0 blk, 2 tov
Game 3: 39 points, 17-30 fg, 5-13 ft, 15 reb, 1blk, 5 tov
Game 4: 38 points, 14-24 fg, 10-18 ft, 7 reb, 1blk

Yes he scored well, however he rebounded like shit, particularly for his size, that's less than Lebron rebounds and in 4 games he only amassed 4 blocks, again that's just shit. Shaq was a lazy ass defender most of his career.

In that series Karl Malone averaged 30-10-5 shooting 51% and 83% FT.

Why is Karl Malone not deemed among the MDE of all time?

Lol, dude had an off game in Game 1 and averaged 36/10 the rest of the series. You know you're good when that's merely brushed off as meh

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:07 PM

Ha when did Jordan get outscored and out assisted for 2 straight series by his teammate from 91-93?

And when did Jordan have somebody beside him leading the nba in 4th quarter playoff scoring 2 years in a row?

When did Jordan only outscore his second best player by .5ppg for an entire season?

When did Jordan get outscored through the eastern conference playoffs (in this case the WC)?
Exactly - Shaq's stats don't tower over his #2 guy like MJ's did... MJ made Pippen's stats look like pure dogshit, whereas Shaq didn't do that to Kobe's.

MJ's stats tower over his #2 guy more than any player in history - FACT

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:11 PM

Yes he scored well, however he rebounded like shit, particularly for his size, that's less than Lebron rebounds and in 4 games he only amassed 4 blocks, again that's just shit. Shaq was a lazy ass defender most of his career.

He completely outplayed Ostertag and had a pretty good series. The exact opposite of what you and "2ball" originally claimed.

In that series Karl Malone averaged 30-10-5 shooting 51% and 83% FT.

Why is Karl Malone not deemed among the MDE of all time?

Why is Karl Malone not deemed MDE based off ONE series?

Gee... tough question. Let me think about that one. :rolleyes:

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:13 PM

Ha when did Jordan get outscored and out assisted for 2 straight series by his teammate from 91-93?

And when did Jordan have somebody beside him leading the nba in 4th quarter playoff scoring 2 years in a row?

When did Jordan only outscore his second best player by .5ppg for an entire season?

When did Jordan get outscored through the eastern conference playoffs (in this case the WC)?

What was Jordan's playoff record without his second best player?

90sgoat

11-14-2015, 02:15 PM

Why is Karl Malone not deemed MDE based off one series?

Gee... tough question. Let me think about that one. :rolleyes:

Malone averages 25-11-3 in 193 playoff games over 18 seasons!

Shaq averages 24-12-3 in 216 playoff games over 18 seasons.

Malone averaged 27-9 in the playoffs at 37 years old.

Shaq averaged 12-5 in the playoffs at 37 years old.

Malone is criminally underrated and would EASILY be top 5-10 had MJ never played.

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:16 PM

.
Comparing MJ and Lebron's 1st Round Opponents from Early Career

Bucks. 1985: 59-23... #2 defense.. Division Champs
Celtics 1986: 67-15... #1 defense.. World Champs
Celtics 1987: 59-23... #9 defense.. Eastern Conference Champs
__________________________________________________ ____________
Combined Record: 185-61... 0.752.. some of the best teams ever

Wizards 2006: 42-40... #22 defense
Wizards 2007: 41-41... #28 defense
Wizards 2008: 43-39... #24 defense
__________________________________________________ ____________
Combined Record: 126-120... 0.512... some of the worst playoff teams ever

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:20 PM

Malone averages 25-11-3 in 193 playoff games over 18 seasons!

Shaq averages 24-12-3 in 216 playoff games over 18 seasons.

Malone averaged 27-9 in the playoffs at 37 years old.

Shaq averaged 12-5 in the playoffs at 37 years old.

Malone is criminally underrated and would EASILY be top 5-10 had MJ never played.

You forgot their efficiency numbers.

For an even more accurate comparison, you should post stats from their peak and primes. Shaq's numbers took a hit, because unlike Malone, he played, carried and WON in a handful of Finals which later took a toll on his body.

ShawkFactory

11-14-2015, 02:21 PM

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:22 PM

So was Jordan's second best player good enough to break away and win 2 FMVP while making 3 straight finals without Jordan?

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:22 PM

:wtf:
that was a response to previous poster who said MJ's record was bad before Pippen

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:24 PM

.
On the post, MJ was double-teamed equally to Shaq - Here's a video of Shaq's post moves where he is doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%), compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).

SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg

However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as a standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:24 PM

What was Jordan's playoff record without his second best player?

that's trolling.. Pippen was the first good player Jordan got to play with and he won with him..

Shaq had peak Penny, peak Kobe, peak Wade and finished off his career with Nash & Lebron..

Imagine if Jordan had the equivalent of playing with peak Penny, peak Kobe & peak Wade throughout his career..

all three of those guys at one point or another made people ask "who's better Shaq or his teammate".. NOBODY EVER asked that about Jordan and Pippen

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:26 PM

that's trolling.. Pippen was the first good player Jordan got to play with and he won with him..

Shaq had peak Penny, peak Kobe, peak Wade and finished off his career with Nash & Lebron..

Imagine if Jordan had the equivalent of playing with peak Penny, peak Kobe & peak Wade throughout his career..

all three of those guys at one point or another made people ask "who's better Shaq or his teammate".. NOBODY EVER asked that about Jordan and Pippen

That's not "trolling" at all.

Pippen was arguably the greatest perimeter defender of his era, the lead playmaker on his team, and was basically a top 5 perimeter player for the majority of Chicago's championship runs.

Without that guy, Jordan was...well...what was his record in the playoffs again?

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:27 PM

That's not "trolling" at all.

Pippen was arguably the greatest perimeter defender of his era, the lead playmaker on his team, and was basically a Top 5 perimeter player for the majority of Chicago's championship runs.

Without that guy, Jordan was...well...what was his record in the playoffs again?

so are you just going to completely ignore my post or are you going to continue with your dubeta level of trolling?

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:28 PM

Shaq had peak Penny, peak Kobe, peak Wade and finished off his career with Nash & Lebron..

Imagine if Jordan had the equivalent of playing with peak Penny, peak Kobe & peak Wade throughout his career..

all three of those guys at one point or another made people ask "who's better Shaq or his teammate".. NOBODY EVER asked that about Jordan and Pippen

and why don't you go ahead and post Shaq's ring total, finals total, MVP total and FMVP's total without Kobe

then post Kobe's without Shaq..

and these include years where Shaq played with peak Wade and peak Penny, Kobe never played with anybody as good as peak Wade when he wasn't with Shaq so it's a more fair comparison

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:28 PM

so are you just going to completely ignore my post or are you going to continue with your dubeta level of trolling?

I addressed your post.

Pippen was a top 5 perimeter player for the vast majority of the 90's (the bulk of Jordan's prime).

Muh help doe :confusedshrug:

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 02:31 PM

Shaq stats in 98 against Jazz:

Game 2: 31 points, 14-21 fg, 3-8 ft, 7 reb, 0 blk, 2 tov
Game 3: 39 points, 17-30 fg, 5-13 ft, 15 reb, 1blk, 5 tov
Game 4: 38 points, 14-24 fg, 10-18 ft, 7 reb, 1blk

Yes he scored well, however he rebounded like shit, particularly for his size and he only amassed 4 blocks, again that's just shit.

I agree that he could have rebounded better.
His defense in that series was actually pretty solid.
Yeah he didn't have many blocks but the Jazz shot alot of perimeter jumpers in that series rather then taking it inside at him.

I still think it was an excellent series.

Also the playoff are not one series.
His first 2 rounds were amazing especially his 2nd round series against a solid Seattle team.

98 Shaq VS Seattle (2nd round) : 31 / 10 / 4.0-apg / 4.0-bpg on 64%TS

That was an absolutely amazing series.
:pimp:

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:33 PM

I addressed your post.

Pippen was a top 5 perimeter player for the vast majority of the 90's.

Muh help doe :confusedshrug:

no you didn't, you're missing the entire point.. Kobe was so good that people began to question who was better between him and Shaq, same with Penny, same with Wade

Pippen never was good enough to bring who was better between he and Jordan into question..

and if 00-02 Shaq is equivalent to 91-93 Jordan then please remind us when Jordan got outscored by his teammate through 3/4 of the playoffs during a championship run, remind us when Jordan had his teammate leading the nba in 4th quarter playoff scoring b2b years, remind us when Pippen bailed out Jordan in game 7 etc.. etc..

that never happened.. because Jordan was so much better that he didn't need his second best teammate outperforming him over three playoffs series just to get to the finals..

also.. Jordan CARRIED the offense, he was shooting 25+ per night in the playoffs.. while Kobe was actually leading the team in FGA for 2/3 of the three peat years.. Shaq didn't have to worry about carrying nearly as much weight as Jordan did...

can you imagine how fresh Jordan would be in the finals if he only had to take 20 FGA per game through the playoffs like Shaq did?

kennethgriffin

11-14-2015, 02:34 PM

Bleh.
Shaq carried the Lakers to a 3-1 lead over the first 4 games of that series despite Kobe playing poorly.

Over those games Shaq averaged : 29 / 12 / 4.3-apg / 3-bpg on 56%TS

Over those games Kobe averaged : 17 / 5-apg and was shit in 3/4 games + 2/3 wins.

+++++++

Then in G5 with a chance to end the series.
----
Shaq : 31 / 21 / 3-ast / 2-BLK on 61%TS
Kobe : 17 / 5 / 4-ast / 6-TOV / 6-PF on 50%TS

Kobe playing well in G7 was just making up for his shitty play in 2 of their first 3 wins and in G5 where they should have ended the series.

Pippen was far better then 2000 Kobe in the 91 & 92 playoffs and unlike #8 he was not injured and mostly irrelevant in the Finals.

shaq was great.. dont get me wrong

but so is lebron

get it?

if you don't get it i'l spell it out for you.... shaq was a choker and dominated until something was weighing in the balance. kobe saved him every time with shots or assists to roll players while shaq cringed...

remember 1997 when shaq admitted he was afraid and rookie kobe wasnt

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:38 PM

Can somebody please tell us which two years from 91-93 where Jordan got outscored and out assisted through the first three rounds of the playoffs :oldlol: :oldlol:

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG,
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG,

2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG,

If Shaq was the equivalent of Jordan then why wasn't he dominating during his path to the finals like Jordan did?

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 02:40 PM

Shaq had peak Penny, peak Kobe

Can you please stop overhyping Shaq's help?

00 Kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4.4-apg on 52%TS (19.4 PER)
02 Kobe : 26 / 5.8 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS (pre-Finals stats) (20.5 PER ~ full run)
**
95 Penny : 20 / 3 / 7.7-apg on 58%TS (19.2 PER)

VS...

92 Pippen : 20 / 8.8 / 6.7-apg on 54%TS (20.1 PER)
91 Pippen : 21 / 8.9 / 5.8-apg on 56%TS (22.0 PER)
10 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5-apg on 60%TS (24.0 PER)

He didn't play with Peak Kobe he played with Baby Kobe and Penny while very good in his first year as an All-Star was not unusually good for a contending level #2.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:44 PM

Can you please stop overhyping Shaq's help?

00 Kobe : 21 / 4.5 / 4.4-apg on 52%TS (19.4 PER)
02 Kobe : 26 / 5.8 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS (pre-Finals stats) (20.5 PER ~ full run)
**
95 Penny : 20 / 3 / 7.7-apg on 58%TS (19.2 PER)

VS...

92 Pippen : 20 / 8.8 / 6.7-apg on 54%TS (20.1 PER)
91 Pippen : 21 / 8.9 / 5.8-apg on 56%TS (22.0 PER)
10 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5-apg on 60%TS (24.0 PER)

He didn't play with Peak Kobe he played with Baby Kobe and Penny while very good in his first year as an All-Star was not unusually good for a contending level #2.

you are rounding up Pippen/Gasols stats and rounding down Penny and Kobe's :oldlol:

ANYWAYZ..

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG,
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG,

2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG,

If Shaq was the equivalent of Jordan then why wasn't he dominating during his path to the finals like Jordan did? :confusedshrug:

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:45 PM

no you didn't, you're missing the entire point.. Kobe was so good that people began to question who was better between him and Shaq, same with Penny, same with Wade

Pippen never was good enough to bring who was better between he and Jordan into question..

Why would that matter if for basically Jordan's entire prime (and peak), he had some of the best help that ERA could offer?

and if 00-02 Shaq is equivalent to 91-93 Jordan then please remind us when Jordan got outscored by his teammate through 3/4 of the playoffs during a championship run

Why would that matter if Shaq was still better than Kobe?

because Jordan was so much better

If you swapped Pippen with Kobe, Jordan wouldn't have to take ALL those shots, so no, that doesn't really have anything to do with him being "MUCH better" than Shaq.

You do realize you're using a false equivalency here, right?

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:46 PM

Jordan's 1991-1993 versus Shaq's 2000-2002:

REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP

PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48

FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd

Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%

How can anyone look at the cold-hard stats and say Shaq's 2000-2002 was equivalent to Jordan's 1991-1993?

He clearly wasn't - Shaq had less MVP's, less all-defensive teams, less PPG, PER, efficiency, win shares, and he beat weaker competition in Finals.

Those are the only relevant stats since rebs/assists, blocks/steals, and FG%/FT% all cancel out (i.e. MJ got twice the assists, but Shaq got twice the rebs)

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:47 PM

[QUOTE=catch24]

Why would that matter if Shaq was still better than Kobe?

/QUOTE]

because we are comparing Shaq and Jordan, Shaq had the benefit of being able to rely on Kobe who was able to outscore and out assist him through entire playoff series..

while Jordan never had the luxury, and had to be the leading scorer for every series he played in, his team needed him to drop 30 per game just for them to have a chance.. while Shaq didn't have that pressure, he could go out there and let Kobe dominant and the team would still win.. hell they went 12-0 during a stretch where Kobe was arguably outplaying Shaq..

Jordan never had that luxury.. he HAD TO dominant every game and he did..

Shaq isn't the equivalent to Jordan when Jordan was easily carrying a bigger load and wasn't getting trumped by his second best player for long stretches in the playofffs..

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 02:48 PM

If Shaq was the equivalent of Jordan then why wasn't he dominating during his path to the finals like Jordan did?

He did though.

Alphas
******
00 Shaq : 31 / 15 / 3 on 56%TS (30.5 PER)
02 Shaq : 29 / 13 / 3 on 57%TS (28.7 PER)
+++
91 Jordan : 31 / 6 / 8 on 60%TS (32.0 PER)
92 Jordan : 34 / 6 / 6 on 57%TS (27.2 PER)
____________________________________

2nd options
******
00 Kobe : 21 / 4 / 4.4-apg on 52%TS (19.4 PER)
02 Kobe : 26 / 6 / 4.6-apg o 51%TS (20.5 PER)
+++
92 Pippen : 20 / 8.8 / 6.7-apg on 54%TS (20.1 PER)
91 Pippen : 21 / 8.9 / 5.8-apg on 56%TS (22.0 PER)

The gap between Shaq & Kobe in 00 & 02 was about the same between Jordan/Pip in 91 & 92.

The stats and their PER ratings make it rather obvious.

Kobe was a pretty meh 2nd option in 2000 honestly based on his actual performance level and didn't even perform at an All-Star level in almost half their playoff wins.

Even in 2002 his 26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS against the West was hardly that great let alone good enough where you'd compare him to Peak Shaq which is beyond absurd.

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:53 PM

because we are comparing Shaq and Jordan, Shaq had the benefit of being able to rely on Kobe who was able to outscore and out assist him through entire playoff series..

And Jordan had the benefit of having Pippen set up Chicago's offense, be THE guy on the defensive end, and become one of the greatest perimeter players of his era.

Not only that, but the 90s Bulls were FAR more stacked than the 3-peat Lakers.

And at that point, you're not even discussing the individual H2H anymore. :oldlol:

Shaq isn't the equivalent to Jordan when Jordan was easily carrying a bigger load and wasn't getting trumped by his second best player for long stretches in the playofffs..

You're right. Instead, the Bulls had a better supporting cast than the Lakers, while Jordan got to take plays off on defense because of Pippen - the best perimeter defender of his era.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 02:53 PM

Keep ducking this

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG,
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG,

2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG,

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Shaq didn't have to dominant like Jordan did in order to get to the finals..

again, point out the 2 years where Jordan was out scored and out assisted by his teammate through the first 3 rounds of the eastern conference playoffs..

because for 2 straight years Shaq was out scored and out assisted by his teammate through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs..

that right there goes to show that Shaq was not the equivalent to 91-93 Jordan.. as Shaq was getting outscored and out assisted by his teammate through the first three rounds of the playoffs for two straight years..

TWO STRAIGHT YEARS OF BEING OUTSCORED AND OUT ASSISTED THROUGH THE FIRST THREE ROUNDS OF THE PLAYOFFS

"equivalent to peak Jordan doe"

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 02:56 PM

How can anyone look at the cold-hard stats and say Shaq's 2000-2002 was equivalent to Jordan's 1991-1993?

You have a right to your opinion but the overall stats and their PER ratings are basically a wash.

Personally I think Jordan may have been slightly better offensively but Shaq's defensive impact was much, much greater and he also dominated the boards.

I think 00-02 Shaq > 91-93 Jordan in terms of overall two way impact and many others would agree.

Sorry bud. The world won't end if everyone doesn't think Jordan is the best at everything.

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:56 PM

Can you please stop overhyping Shaq's help?

Kobe is far better when you look at their ENTIRE TENURES alongside MJ/Shaq, which his the only objective way to do it...

You can't cherry-pick the only 2 years of Pippen's career where he comes close to Kobe.. This kind of blatant bias ruins your credibility.

Penny while very good in his first year as an All-Star was not unusually good for a contending level #2.

:wtf: :biggums: :coleman:

PENNY WAS 1ST TEAM ALL-NBA IN 1996 - Shaq was actually 2nd team..

Again, your bias is unbelievable - you're credibility is GONE

3ball

11-14-2015, 02:58 PM

You have a right to your opinion but the overall stats and their PER ratings are basically a wash.

It isn't opinion

During the 3 year periods in question, Shaq had less MVP's, less all-defensive teams, less PPG, PER, efficiency, win shares, and he beat weaker competition in Finals.

catch24

11-14-2015, 02:59 PM

So because Kobe wanted to take and MISS more shots than Shaq, that means Shaq wasn't as good as Jordan?

What the f*ck? :roll:

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:00 PM

So because Kobe took more shots than Shaq, that means Shaq wasn't as great as Jordan?

What the f*ck? :roll:
No - during the 3-year periods in question,

Shaq had less MVP's, less all-defensive teams, less PPG, PER, efficiency, win shares, and he beat weaker competition in Finals.

SHAQisGOAT

11-14-2015, 03:02 PM

GOAT peaks (probably in this order)...

Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:02 PM

Keep ducking this
2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG,

I like how you left out efficiency as if it doesn't matter.
Shaq : 26.4 / 12.7 / 2.6 on 55%TS
Kobe : 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.4 on 49%TS

A nearly 6% difference is HUGE buddy.
Shaq was far more effective scorer, had much greater overall production and was the Laker's defensive anchor.
He was also the main focus of opposing defenses.

The stats aren't close and when you factor in contextual factors as I did above the gap grows much, much larger.

The fact remains that Shaq got out of a tough Western Conference in 2002 with his #2 putting up
26.6 / 4.4 on 49%TS

Pippen put up better offensive & overall numbers in his 91 & 92 runs.
So... what exactly makes Kobe better?

catch24

11-14-2015, 03:03 PM

No - during the 3-year periods in question,

Shaq had less MVP's, less all-defensive teams, less PPG, PER, efficiency, win shares, and he beat weaker competition in Finals.

Jordan had 1 more MVP, and the rest of that stuff is ALL really close.

The least you could do is put them in the same tier. They were both dominant as hell.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:06 PM

Kobe is far better when you look at their ENTIRE TENURES alongside MJ/Shaq, which his the only objective way to do it...

I suppose that is arguable but 91 & 92 Pippen >> 00 & 02 Kobe
Kobe in 00 was actually a rather weak 2nd option in an All-Time sense.

PENNY WAS 1ST TEAM ALL-NBA IN 1996 - Shaq was actually 2nd team..

I said first year he was an All-Star which is 1995.
Quit foaming at the mouth you idiot.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:11 PM

It isn't opinion

Shaq had less PER

Eh.

Shaq = 29.3 PER
MJ = 29.5 PER

PER also doesn't account for the massive difference defensively.
Shaq during the 3peat especially in the playoffs was a DPOY level defensive anchor at the C position.
Jordan's defensive impact while great wasn't even close.

Offensively Jordan has a case but in terms of two way impact and overall dominance
3peat MDE Shaq > 91-93 Jordan.

Sorry boss. Accept the truth.
:pimp:

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:16 PM

Shaq = 29.3 PER
MJ = 29.5 PER

Jordan didn't just have higher regular season and playoff PER.

He had more MVP's, more all-defensive teams, more PPG, efficiency, win shares, and he beat better competition in Finals.

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:21 PM

Jordan had 1 more MVP

That's a super-ton, especially in a 3-year period.

and the rest of that stuff is ALL really close.

MJ is higher ACROSS THE BOARD in all those categories in the regular season, playoffs and Finals - it's a thorough ass-whooping.

MJ had higher PPG, efficiency, MVP's, all-defensive teams, win shares, PER

catch24

11-14-2015, 03:21 PM

Jordan didn't just have higher regular season and playoff PER.

He had more MVP's, more all-defensive teams, more PPG, efficiency, win shares, and he beat better competition in Finals.

Jordan's 5 vs Shaq's 4 total MVPs (including Finals MVP), Jordan with one more defensive team, while ALL the raw and advanced stats are relatively close.

Yup. BOTH look like Tier 1 players to me. :applause:

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:22 PM

GOAT peaks (probably in this order)...

Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Specifically, what's the argument for Shaq's peak over MJ's.

It isn't the stats because MJ's were better across the board - PPG, PER, WS/48, MVP's, all-defensive teams... MJ scored a higher proportion of his teams points... He was more dominant by every metric

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:24 PM

He had more MVP's

Don't really care about that.
MVP is a subjective media based award voted on by a small group of mortal men.
Personally I thought Shaq was the MVP (or best player) from 01-02 but certainly in 01. So he should have had 2+ MVP like Jordan at worst.

more all-defensive teams

Another subjective award and in my eyes it is irrelevent since Shaq was a DPOY level C from 00-02 especially in the playoffs and indeed did finish 2nd in DPOY voting in 2000.

Shaq's defensive impact imo was far greater then Jordan's.
I know you'll disagree so we can just agree 2 disagree on that.

more PPG, efficiency

Yeah slightly more PPG and ever so slightly better effiency.
You can probably argue that Jordan was somewhat better offensively but you can also argue that Shaq was better defensively and of course his dominance of the boards had its own value which MJ could not replicate.

win shares

Never cared for that stat and don't value it.
That is just me though.

and he beat better competition in Finals.

Even if true I don't know how much relevance that has.
Who guarded Jordan in those series?

Shaq faced DPOY Mutombo and a nice Dale Davis/Smits combo in 00.
Plus in 2000 he had to win without his #2 for most of the series while Jordan always had a healthy Pippen for all 3 Finals series.

Plus in all 3 series he was heavily double/triple teamed to an extreme level in a way Jordan wasn't in his Finals series.

I recently watched parts of the 92 Finals and Jordan wasn't getting doubled much and the Portland defense didn't look all that great.

So did Jordan have an "easier time" getting his numbers in his situation as opposed to Shaq?
I don't know but currently I lean towards yes.

I don't think there is much of a gap between the two.
I personally think Shaq was better overall but if you can't admit they are on the same tier as wise Catch said then I don't think there is much left to talk about.

97 bulls

11-14-2015, 03:24 PM

5 vs 4 total MVPs (including Finals MVP), one more defensive team, with all the raw and advanced stats being relatively close.

Yup. BOTH look like Tier 1 players to me. :applause:
But who was there to compete with Shaq at center? Even Shaq knew this. Shaq took advantage of a league chalk full of weak centers. Old ass Mutombo was probably his biggest competition at the time.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:29 PM

But who was there to compete with Shaq at center? Even Shaq knew this. Shaq took advantage of a league chalk full of weak centers. Old ass Mutombo was probably his biggest competition at the time.

Who was Jordan facing? Who was guarding him?
Shaq faced Duncan & Robinson twice, Sabonis & Sheed, DPOY Mutombo who was still an incredible player despite your attempt at downplaying him.

Shaq faced plenty of good defensive frontcourts and also faced more double/triple teams in those Finals then any other player ever.
Indiana would double him off the ball at times (as did Portland) and the Nets would regularly surround him with half their team.

There are many things to factor in... have to look at the whole picture.
I certainly don't think Shaq had an easier time getting his numbers then Jordan did. The opposite is true...

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:30 PM

if you can't admit they are on the same tier

4/6 with inferior stats/accolades across the board, and better supporting talent is not on the same "tier" as

6/6 with better stats/accolades across the board, and inferior supporting talent

/thread

btw, do you realize Shaq played with Penny, Kobe, Wade and Lebron?

catch24

11-14-2015, 03:31 PM

But who was there to compete with Shaq at center? Even Shaq knew this. Shaq took advantage of a league chalk full of weak centers. Old ass Mutombo was probably his biggest competition at the time.

Mourning, Duncan (he and Robinson alternated between center and PF), Garnett, Smits, Divac, Sabonis, Ben Wallace, Mutombo (at the time, Dikembe was still arguably the best shot-blocker and defender)...

I don't understand the myth about Shaq facing 'weak competition'. They weren't as great as the 90s centers, but still ATG and completely formidable.

We gonna knock Jordan's competition due to the lack of swing-men?

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:33 PM

6/6 with better stats/accolades across the board

So this is about your insecurity over Jordan's All-Time ranking?
I actually rank Jordan above Shaq on my All-Time list.

I still think Shaq from 00-02 was more dominant overall then Jordan from 91-93.
Shaq from 00-01 was the MDE. Better then any other player ever in my book.

Then again I am a Shaq fan and you a HUGE Jordan fan so it doesn't seem odd that we'd disagree.
And yes overall I expect that slightly more people would support you since Jordan is probably the most popular player ever and Shaq in that regard is much further down on the list.

:cheers: :pimp:

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-14-2015, 03:36 PM

Damn. Shaqtwizzle and catch24 are like the Kobe/Shaq 1-2 punch ... Y'all are killing this thread.

Great posts :pimp:

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:46 PM

We gonna knock Jordan's competition due to the lack of swing-men?

Comparison of Top Wings

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
Lebron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Dominique Wilkins
Kawhi Leonard........... Scottie Pippen
James Harden........... Adrian Dantley
Paul Pierce............... Bernard King
Carmelo Anthony....... James Worthy
Andre Igoudala.......... Clyde Drexler

Is there anyone else?

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 03:46 PM

I like how you left out efficiency as if it doesn't matter.
Shaq : 26.4 / 12.7 / 2.6 on 55%TS
Kobe : 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.4 on 49%TS

A nearly 6% difference is HUGE buddy.
Shaq was far more effective scorer, had much greater overall production and was the Laker's defensive anchor.
He was also the main focus of opposing defenses.

The stats aren't close and when you factor in contextual factors as I did above the gap grows much, much larger.

The fact remains that Shaq got out of a tough Western Conference in 2002 with his #2 putting up
26.6 / 4.4 on 49%TS

Pippen put up better offensive & overall numbers in his 91 & 92 runs.
So... what exactly makes Kobe better?

why do you refuse to talk about 01 :oldlol:

The fact remains that Shaq got out of a tough Western Conference in 2002 with his #2 putting up
26.6 / 4.4 on 49%TS

you act like this is bad? :biggums: what other player had his teammate putting up 27ppg on their way to the finals..?

Pippen put up better offensive & overall numbers in his 91 & 92 runs.
So... what exactly makes Kobe better?

01 Kobe: 29/7/6/2/1 on 56% TS; 25 PER; 3.8 WS (led the playoffs in WS); .260 WS/48;

91 Pippen: 22/9/6/3/1 on 56% TS; 22 PER; 2.9 WS; .197 WS/48

92 Pippen: 20/9/7/2/1 on 54% TS; 20 PER; 3.1 WS; .168 WS/48

O rly? :oldlol: :lol:

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:49 PM

I still think Shaq from 00-02 was more dominant overall then Jordan from 91-93.

Except you can't support this opinion with any facts, stats or logic.

Whereas I can support MJ's superiority with tons of facts, stats and logic.

That's the difference, and that's how you know who's better - people who say Shaq's peak was better can't back it up... Look at ShaqisGOAT... Since I asked him to back it up, he's ghost.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:50 PM

why do you refuse to talk about 01 :oldlol:

Why do you think?

Kobe was a monster in that 2001 run.
MVP level.

I still think Shaq was considerably better even just against the West but yeah Kobe was awesome that year and in that run.

Much better then Pippen has ever been.

you act like this is bad? :biggums: what other player had his teammate putting up 27ppg on their way to the finals..?

Plenty of #2's have put up better stats then 26 / 4.4 on 49%TS.
I am not saying he was a bad #2 but he wasn't anything special either.

Also I am not huge on just looking at raw ppg for impact and I greatly value effiency but thats just me.

01 Kobe:
91 Pippen:
92 Pippen:

Yes.
01 Kobe >>>> 91/92 Pippen
And...
91/92 Pippen >> 00/02 Kobe

:cheers:

catch24

11-14-2015, 03:51 PM

Comparison of Top Wings

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
Lebron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Dominique Wilkins
Kawhi Leonard........... Scottie Pippen
James Harden........... Adrian Dantley
Paul Pierce............... Bernard King
Carmelo Anthony....... James Worthy
Andre Igoudala.......... Clyde Drexler

So in the 90s, Jordan not only went H2H against a past his prime Magic and shell of his former self James Worthy, but dueled himself and his teammate Scottie Pippen. :eek:

GOAT gonna GOAT.

3ball

11-14-2015, 03:53 PM

So in the 90s, Jordan not only went H2H against a past his prime Magic and shell of his former self James Worthy

Magic was runner up for league-MVP in 1991..

Meanwhile, Worthy was All-NBA and led the Lakers in scoring in regular season and Finals with 19 ppg on 48%.

Keep telling yourself lies though... That's the best way to learn and get smart about the game.. :rolleyes:

Btw, MJ's 1991 Finals is the goat performance - he thoroughly outplayed a top 5 all-time player by guarding Magic and then dropping 33/7/11 offense, with goat clutch... It's the greatest two-way performance ever, by far.
.

catch24

11-14-2015, 03:54 PM

Oh I forgot. Larry Bird who spent games on the sidelines, laying on his back.

You can't make this shit up :bowdown:

feyki

11-14-2015, 03:55 PM

Havlicek > Russell too then right

Hondo has 2 w/out Bill , Bill has 5 w/out Hondo . You are bad on math .

No , Old Jordan better than prime Shaq. And Young Jordan has goat prime with Wilt,Kareem,Bill,Bird,Mikan .

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 03:55 PM

Except you can't support this opinion with any facts, stats or logic.

The major stats are pretty much neck & neck and none of them can account for Shaq's defensive advantage which I personally think is rather large.

If I truly cared about proving that Shaq was better in this regard (I don't) I guess I would try and spend some time gathering info that could support & prove my opinion about his defensive value being considerably greater.

Until then I can only say that I don't think the offensive gap between them is significant even if it does indeed go in Jordan's favor and that when you factor in the defensive advantage that I believe Shaq has with his dominant rebounding and other intangibles he becomes the more valuable and overall more dominant player.

We are still splitting hairs here and I do believe MJ/Shaq are the two most dominant playoff/finals performers ever with the two best playoff Peak & Primes.
Even if my research led me to eventually take your side on this I wouldn't feel bad.
Being slightly below Jordan is not a bad place to be, right?

:pimp:

catch24

11-14-2015, 04:01 PM

Magic was runner up for league-MVP in 1991.

What happened to Magic after 1991?

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how MJ went H2H with himself and Pippen...?

Tell us his secret brah. Was it his "special stuff"?

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr05/2013/4/5/12/enhanced-buzz-7040-1365179982-23.jpg

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:01 PM

Magic was runner up for league-MVP in 1991..

Was he a good defender?
Was he guarding MJ?

Also while the injured 91 Laker's Jordan faced might have been a better team then say the 00 Pacer's (who are underrated and had good depth) Shaq had a much, much weaker supporting cast especially once Kobe went down.

So... on quick review one might easily argue that Shaq individually had a tougher job winning his series.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:03 PM

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr05/2013/4/5/12/enhanced-buzz-7040-1365179982-23.jpg

:lol

3ball

11-14-2015, 04:04 PM

The major stats are pretty much neck & neck

Except MJ is ahead in all of them in regular season, playoffs and Finals.

That's a comprehensive ass-whooping.

and none of them can account for Shaq's defensive advantage which I personally think is rather large.

I don't know where you got the idea that Shaq's defense was all-time great from 2000-2002..

Shaq's defense actually sucked in 2002... In 2000 and 2001, it was good, but not all-time great..

MJ's 1991 Finals is the goat 2-way performance - he thoroughly outplayed a top 5 all-time player by guarding Magic and then he dropped 33/7/11 on offense, with goat clutch... It's the greatest two-way performance ever, by far.

We are still splitting hairs here and I do believe MJ/Shaq are the two most dominant playoff/finals performers ever with the two best playoff Peak & Primes.

So wait, are you saying Shaq matches Jordan in OVERALL playoff and Finals performance?

Because that's a joke - MJ's career playoff and Finals stats DESTROY Shaq's.

Shaq's peak is closer, but still behind in every category across the board for RS, PO and Finals.. Those are the facts.

3ball

11-14-2015, 04:11 PM

Also while the injured 91 Laker's

In the Finals, Worthy played 41 mpg and averaged 19 ppg on 47%, which is exactly what he did in regular season.

Magic averaged 19/7/13, same as regular season.

Was he a good defender?
Was he guarding MJ?

You said Magic was past his prime in 1991 - so I informed you that Magic was runner-up for league-MVP in 1991, therefore ethering you.

:whatever: :kobe: :yaohappy:

fpliii

11-14-2015, 04:12 PM

3ball

11-14-2015, 04:13 PM

3ball is correct. MJ guarded Magic for more than twice as many possessions as Scottie did.

Magic vs different Bulls defenders, per 95 possessions

player poss TS% PTS AST TOV FGA FTA F drawn
Jordan 253 73,2 20,3 16,1 4,5 9,4 10,1 6,4
Pippen 102 64,9 20,5 11,2 4,7 12,1 8,4 7,5
no one 031 26,5 15,3 12,3 3,1 27,6 3,1 0
Horace 010 0,00 0,00 19,0 28,5 38,0 0,0 0
others 017 68,5 67,1 16,8 5,6 39,1 22,0 22,4

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1261129#p36419034

So Pippen did spot duty on Magic.... and Pippen's offensive burden was a small fraction of Jordan's

Jordan in 1991 Finals: 33.1 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 55.8 fg
Pippen in 1991 Finals: 20.8 ppg.. 9.4 rpg... 6.6 apg... 45.3 fg

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:15 PM

Except MJ is ahead in all of them in regular season, playoffs and Finals.

That is debatable especially regarding their best Finals series but even so a minor edge doesn't mean its a whooping especially when Shaq has the clear edge in rebounding and imo defense so it doesn't all go in MJ's favor.

I don't know where you got the idea that Shaq's defense was all-time great from 2000-2002..

He was a legit DPOY level C in 2000 and carried a non-stellar defensive unit to the #1 spot.
The 01 Laker's also had the best playoff defense.

So wait, are you saying Shaq matches Jordan in OVERALL playoff and Finals performance?

Mike 87-98 Playoffs = 28.7 PER --- (11 years)
Shaq 94-03 Playoffs = 28.7 PER --- (10 years)

Pretty close amigo. As I said they have the two best playoff Primes.

I took out 86 for MJ because he barely played that season and wouldn't have made the playoffs in a half decent conference.
Not that including it would have inflated his PER anyway because of the small sample size (3g).

95 should also probably not count...

SamuraiSWISH

11-14-2015, 04:15 PM

Except MJ didn't get carried in the clutch by Pippen, the way Kobe did Shaq. Real talk.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:20 PM

You said Magic was past his prime in 1991

I never said anything like that.

Except MJ didn't get carried in the clutch by Pippen, the way Kobe did Shaq. Real talk.

I don't believe in the value of "clutch" etc...
A game is won over 48 minutes.
Early or late no part of the game has a highly elevated value.

Either way Shaq led the 00-02 Laker's in total 4th quarter playoff points scored and set the record for highest 4th quarter PPG average in a Finals series ever in 2000.

This idea that Shaq wasn't almost always involved in the offense even at the end of games is revisionist history and nothing more.
He was always a dominant 4th quarter performer in close or not close games.

longhornfan1234

11-14-2015, 04:23 PM

I never said anything like that.

I don't believe in the value of "clutch" etc...
A game is won over 48 minutes.
Early or late no part of the game has a highly elevated value.

Either way Shaq led the 00-02 Laker's in total 4th quarter playoff points scored and set the record for highest 4th quarter PPG average in a Finals series ever in 2000.

This idea that Shaq wasn't almost always involved in the offense even at the end of games is revisionist history and nothing more.
He was always a dominant 4th quarter performer in close or not close games.

Source to numbers?

3ball

11-14-2015, 04:23 PM

.
As Flpiii showed, Pippen was a SPOT DUTY defensive specialist with a small fraction the offensive burden of Jordan:

Jordan in 1991 Finals: 33.1 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 55.8 fg
Pippen in 1991 Finals: 20.8 ppg.. 9.4 rpg... 6.6 apg... 45.3 fg

MJ's 1991 Finals was the greatest 2-way performance - the greatest performance of all time.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 04:25 PM

warriorfan

11-14-2015, 04:26 PM

so autistic german soccer fans think shaq is as good as MJ

interesting

Lakers Legend#32

11-14-2015, 04:27 PM

Different types and styles of play, but each dominant in their own way.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:31 PM

Source to numbers?

Shaq - 388
Kobe - 351

These are the totals for the entire 3peat.
I collected the 01-02 totals from readily available PBP data online I think from espn's site.

I self-tracked some or most of the 4th quarter scoring data from their 2000 run by hand years ago which was time extensive and boring but I did it well.

On my honor its all legit but if you had the time you could go through the PBP data for 01-02 and watch the 00 games yourself and pen down the data for a self confirmation.

I have much more specific data regarding each individual series and even individual games for all 3 runs on my old computer and I remember posting it online somewhere but I don't really feel like looking for it at the moment.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 04:31 PM

in the 4th quarter of the 2002 playoffs

Kobe averaged 8 ppg on 49%

Shaq averaged 6ppg on 37.5%

Jordan never played that poorly in the 4th for an entire championship run

3ball

11-14-2015, 04:31 PM

I don't believe in the value of "clutch" etc...
A game is won over 48 minutes.
Early or late no part of the game has a highly elevated value.

A game is won over 48 minutes, but the latter stages of a close game play much differently than the opening stages or middle stages of a game..

In the 2nd half, 4th quarter and final minutes of a game, teams don't allow all the things they were allowing earlier in the game, and strategy tighten's up for both teams.. Players that are better at the late stages of the game have more value.

If you don't understand this, then I feel sorry for you... You're probably one of those guys that doesn't believe in "momentum" or the "hot hand" either.

But momentum is real - that's why it's a word... So is optimism, confidence and adrenaline - and all humans perform better when these things are higher - this is common knowledge that you shouldn't deny.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:32 PM

Kobe led the entire league in 4th quarter scoring for both the 01 & 02 post seasons

Yes he had a small edge for those two runs while Shaq had a MASSIVE edge in both 4th quarter points total & 4th quarter scoring efficiency in their 2000 run.

Overall Shaq scored more 4th quarter points in the entire 3peat as you can see from a few posts back where I listed their full totals.

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:36 PM

But momentum is real - that's why it's a word.

Momentum can occur at any time in a game not just at the very end and "pressure" can also exist much earlier then the final waning moments.

Imagine you're in a Finals G7... the pressure can be there from start to finish.
Or another important playoff game the pressure can start at the beginning of the 4th of a close game.

You know this is true.

3ball

11-14-2015, 04:38 PM

:lol

3ball

11-14-2015, 04:39 PM

Momentum can occur at any time in a game not just at the very end and "pressure" can also exist much earlier then the final waning moments.

Imagine you're in a Finals G7... the pressure can be there from start to finish.
Or another important playoff game the pressure can start at the beginning of the 4th of a close game.

You know this is true.
In the 2nd half, 4th quarter and final minutes of a game, teams don't allow all the things they were allowing earlier in the game, and strategy tighten's up for both teams.. Players that are better at the late stages of the game have more value.

It's basically insane to think the late stage of a game plays the same way as the early or middle stage..

Btw, momentum consists of optimism, confidence and adrenaline - and all humans perform better when these things are higher - this is common knowledge that you shouldn't deny.. Humans aren't robots.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 04:42 PM

How do people like Twizzle over here not see that when they have to make an argument about who was better in the clutch between Shaq or his teammate that they've already lost the discussion on Shaq being equivalent Jordan..

You already admitted that Kobe had an edge over Shaq for two straight years during their championship runs while we all know Jordan was clearly the go to guy in the 4th for his teams, while having to carry a larger load offensively.. Shaq was only putting up 28 points per game in 02, by 93 Jordan was averaging 35 in the playoffs, and 40 in the finals..

references

11-14-2015, 04:47 PM

SamuraiSWISH

11-14-2015, 04:47 PM

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:49 PM

You already admitted that Kobe had an edge over Shaq for two straight years during their championship runs

I never said that.
Their 4th quarter numbers in 01 were very close and outside of the Spurs series their numbers in 02 were also very close or in Shaq's favor.

4th quarter points

02 1st round (Portland)
Shaq : 22
Kobe : 15

02 CFinals (Sacramento)
Shaq : 60
Kobe : 46

02 Finals (NJN)
Shaq : 28
Kobe : 29

Shaq led in 2/3 Western series and the Finals was a sweep so who cares even though it was still a draw.

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 04:52 PM

shaq put up 35 in the 02 Finals

Jordan put up 41, wasn't outscored by a teammate in any game and played against a better team

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 04:56 PM

Jordan put up 41

Yes... 4-5 more ppg on nearly 10% worse efficiency without all the rebounds or half of the defensive impact.

But lets ignore that.

Shaq was also facing #1 defensive team. Phoenix was 10th and led by no defense Barkley.

:kobe:

references

11-14-2015, 04:58 PM

Yes... 4-5 more ppg on nearly 10% worse efficiency without all the rebounds or half of the defensive impact.

But lets ignore that.

Shaq was also facing #1 defensive team. Phoenix was 10th and led by no defense Barkley.

:kobe:

I need to repent and pray to the jordan poster

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 05:02 PM

I never said that.
Their 4th quarter numbers in 01 were very close and outside of the Spurs series their numbers in 02 were also very close or in Shaq's favor.

I never said that.

yes you did

Yes he had a small edge for those two runs

their numbers in 02 were also very close or in Shaq's favor.

No they are not :oldlol: :oldlol:

in the 4th quarter of the 2002 playoffs

Kobe averaged 8 ppg on 49%

Shaq averaged 6ppg on 37.5%

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?sort=PTS&dir=1&Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 05:08 PM

yes you did

Saying Kobe had a lead in the totals for that year doesn't mean I said he was more clutch or whatever.

Kobe averaged 8 ppg on 49%
Shaq averaged 6ppg on 37.5%

Those numbers (if correct) are badly, badly skewed by the Spurs series in which Kobe was murderously good in the 4th quarters (and generally terrible before them) while Shaq was murderously terrible in the 4th quarters and generally good before them.

In the other 2 Western series Shaq led the Laker's in 4th quarter points and likely did so on better efficiency.

02 1st round (Portland)
Shaq : 22
Kobe : 15

02 CFinals (Sacramento)
Shaq : 60
Kobe : 46

02 Finals (NJN)
Shaq : 28
Kobe : 29

Shaq was better in 2/3 WC series with the Finals being a wash.
He was better if anything...

:pimp:

DaOldLion

11-14-2015, 05:13 PM

in the 4th quarter of the 2002 playoffs

Kobe averaged 8 ppg on 49%

Shaq averaged 6ppg on 37.5%

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?sort=PTS&dir=1&Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*

2 pages back "show efficiency stats" then you completely ignore efficiency here :oldlol:

Kobe was better than Shaq in the 02 4th quarter.. let it go facts are facts.. 2 more ppg on 10% better efficiency..

its not like that's knocking Shaq.. Kobe led the entire league in 4th quarter scoring for 2/3 or their championship runs.. and again, you've already lost the argument on whether 00-02 Shaq was the equivalent of 91-93 Jordan..

ShaqTwizzle

11-14-2015, 05:17 PM

in the 4th quarter of the 2002 playoffs

Kobe averaged 8 ppg on 49%
Shaq averaged 6ppg on 37.5%

I never denied your numbers potentially being correct I just said that they are skewed and explained why.

Shaq was better in 2/3 WC series. Kobe was MUCH better in 1 WC series.

2 pages back "show efficiency stats" then you completely ignore efficiency here

I never ignored it I only explained why it is skewed and that outside of one series Shaq was producing more and "probably" did so on better efficiency.
Does that site show you efficiency for separate series or only for entire runs?
If not I will collect those stats myself when I have time.

Kobe was better than Shaq in the 02 4th quarter.

The stats show Shaq was considerably better in 2/3 WC series with the Finals being a wash.
I don't think that means Kobe was better.

I also didn't "lose" anything since I don't give a special value for 4th quarters nor do I obsess only on raw ppg.

dhsilv

11-14-2015, 05:42 PM

A game is won over 48 minutes, but the latter stages of a close game play much differently than the opening stages or middle stages of a game..

In the 2nd half, 4th quarter and final minutes of a game, teams don't allow all the things they were allowing earlier in the game, and strategy tighten's up for both teams.. Players that are better at the late stages of the game have more value.

If you don't understand this, then I feel sorry for you... You're probably one of those guys that doesn't believe in "momentum" or the "hot hand" either.

But momentum is real - that's why it's a word... So is optimism, confidence and adrenaline - and all humans perform better when these things are higher - this is common knowledge that you shouldn't deny.

Unicorn is a word. Unicorns are real?

feyki

11-14-2015, 06:03 PM

Kobe better than Shaq at 2001 playoffs .

catch24

11-14-2015, 06:03 PM

Unicorn is a word. Unicorns are real?

:roll:

I have Jordan as the GOAT, but man, his fans on here are fukking clowns...

HighFlyer23

11-14-2015, 06:09 PM

:roll:

I have Jordan as the GOAT, but man, his fans on here are fukking clowns...

They are fakkits

They make it seem as if the nikka never missed a shot

ballinhun8

11-14-2015, 06:26 PM

They are fakkits

They make it seem as if the nikka never missed a shot

You have the number 23 in your username bro

Face it, if it weren't for MJ, no one would recognize that number as being cool and elite

dhsilv

11-14-2015, 06:28 PM

:roll:

I have Jordan as the GOAT, but man, his fans on here are fukking clowns...

You know discussing how a guy like Jordan would play differently in different eras is actually a great topic.

But these guys take any possible fun out of it and just start posting crazy stuff, and worse the guys just copying and pasting stuff not even relevant to what was said and trying to change the topic.

24-Inch_Chrome

11-14-2015, 08:10 PM

Pippen is a scrub compared to Kobe.

6/6 doe. :confusedshrug:

3ball

11-14-2015, 08:19 PM

Shaq was also facing #1 defensive team. Phoenix was 10th and led by no defense Barkley.

:kobe:

First of all, anyone who watched at the time knows the Nets were one of the weakest Finals teams ever, along with the Sixers..

But speaking of the Nets - you mean THIS #1 defense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes

Or THIS one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgiSxmCGCLs

:whatever: :kobe: :durantunimpressed:

SwishSquared

11-14-2015, 08:19 PM

All these players had great teams at the exact right moment in their careers.

For some it developed organically (Jordan, Shaq) for some it was a calculated and colluding move (Lebron).

That's why I love Kareem, Hakeem and Kobe.

Found a way to be all time greats despite being denied a great team during their peak. :applause: :applause: :applause:Jordan and Shaq happened to have great coaches and/or front offices that helped them be a part of something great. Heck, it eventually took a team change (via FA) for Shaq to achieve all-time greatness. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley had major influences in the ability of Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Kareem, and LBJ to win multiple rings. Hakeem is really unique in that regard though.and yes I took a troll post seriously

SwishSquared

11-14-2015, 08:22 PM

Shaq played 8 seasons during the 90s where he could have won a ship. He could not beat Hakeem with a team of role players and he got owned repeatedly and swept by the Greg Ostertag Utah Jazz.

You simply can not claim Shaq to be MDE when he 2 years before his so called prime got owned by a team which center rotation was Antoine Carr, Greg Ostertag and Adam Keefe.

Shaq won once Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Robinson et al got old and even then his only challenger was Duncan and they took the championship from right under his nose.

Shaq was not leaps and bounds better than the rest of the centers in the 90s, he simply was not, look at the head to head stats.

Shaq looked so dominant because there was not a single center left in the league to guard him.Timing is a big part of winning a title(s) and it's often underrated. Usually once a team gets too old, another squad rises and wins big for a while. Then they get too old and the cycle repeats.

Same way Pistons broke through once Showtime Lakers and Bird Celtics got old. Then MJ's Bulls broke through. Then Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

Duncan's Spurs are the one team that's consistently been in the mix for his entire career, which is a big anomaly for the modern NBA imo.

24-Inch_Chrome

11-14-2015, 08:28 PM

First of all, anyone who watched at the time knows the Nets were one of the weakest Finals teams ever, along with the Sixers..

But speaking of the Nets - you mean THIS #1 defense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes

Or THIS one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgiSxmCGCLs

:whatever: :kobe: :durantunimpressed:

He means the team that posted the league's best DRTG in 2002. :cheers:

dhsilv

11-14-2015, 09:07 PM

MJ would be the best in today's 3-point-driven league (better than Wade/Westbrook), and he was the best in the 2-pointer eras - he averaged 37 PPG on 56% TS shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) and was the best player from 88' to 98.

Btw, regarding Wade/Westbrook - they led the league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.. Nor could they double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ.
.

This is exactly why we can't discuss these topics.

3ball

11-14-2015, 09:12 PM

This is exactly why we can't discuss these topics.

Think of it this way - would you like you see Lebron DO MORE, like take more shots and score more points at the same efficiency - that's Jordan - Jordan took far more shots per game and scored more at the same or better efficiency.. The stats show this clearly:

PER GAME IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 33.4 pts.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 ast.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 25.1 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
DURANT:. 28.9 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 3.8 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 1.2 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
LEBRON:. 28.2 pts.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 ast.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
KOBE:.... 25.6 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 4.1 dreb.. 4.7 ast.. 2.9 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 0.7 blk.. 20.5 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:... 22.9 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.1 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 1.6 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 17.4 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

PER 100 POSSESSIONS IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

dhsilv

11-14-2015, 09:13 PM

Think of it this way - would you like you see Lebron DO MORE, like take more shots and score more points at the same efficiency - that's Jordan - Jordan took far more shots per game and scored more at the same or better efficiency.. The stats show this clearly:

PER GAME IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 33.4 pts.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 ast.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 25.1 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
DURANT:. 28.9 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 3.8 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 1.2 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
LEBRON:. 28.2 pts.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 ast.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
KOBE:..... 25.6 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 4.1 dreb.. 4.7 ast.. 2.9 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 0.7 blk.. 20.5 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 22.9 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.1 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 1.6 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 17.4 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

PER 100 POSSESSIONS IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

What are you even talking about? Again...we can't discuss how MJ's game would change because people like you post shit like this.

3ball

11-14-2015, 09:16 PM

a lot of misinformation itt

3ball

11-14-2015, 09:19 PM

What are you even talking about? Again...we can't discuss how MJ's game would change because people like you post shit like this.
What's wrong with saying MJ is better than Wade or Westbrook (who didn't have 3-point shot) and would therefore still be the best in today's 3-point-driven league?

So MJ would be better than league-leading scorers Wade and Westbrook, and he was already king of the 2-pointer eras - he scored 37 PPG on 56% TS on ALL TWO'S amidst every-possession (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) double-teams... and he was the best player from 88' to 98.

dhsilv

11-14-2015, 09:22 PM

What's wrong with saying MJ is better than Wade or Westbrook (who didn't have 3-point shot) and would therefore still be the best in today's 3-point-driven league?

It isn't the topic mentioned? It's a given. Just for starters....

3ball

11-14-2015, 09:33 PM

It isn't the topic mentioned? It's a given. Just for starters....
such a baby - you are the one that wanted to consider MJ playing in different eras..

so I pointed out that he's better than Westbrook/Wade, who didn't have 3-point shot... and now you say, "who brought it up?"... you did!

3ball

11-14-2015, 09:36 PM

Hakeem is really unique in that regard though.

Hakeem is unique indeed - in 1995, he became the only player to ever win a championship while taking 25+ shot attempts per game at 45%+ field goal percentage - this means he's the only player to ever shoot well at high volume AND win a championship.

Oh wait.. There's one other guy that did it - MJ did it 4 times, in 1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998.. But go back the basics - high shot volume by itself might control pace somewhat, but it can't win.. High shot volume AND high efficiency can win, as MJ and Hakeem proved.

Btw, would you like you see someone like Lebron DO MORE, like take more shots and score more points at the same efficiency - that's Jordan - Jordan took far more shots per game and scored more at the same or better efficiency.. The stats show this clearly - MJ is the greatest high volume shooter of all time:

PER GAME IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 33.4 pts.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 ast.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 25.1 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
DURANT:. 28.9 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 3.8 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 1.2 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
LEBRON:. 28.2 pts.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 ast.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
KOBE:.... 25.6 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 4.1 dreb.. 4.7 ast.. 2.9 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 0.7 blk.. 20.5 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:... 22.9 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.1 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 1.6 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 17.4 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

PER 100 POSSESSIONS IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

Smoke117

11-14-2015, 09:41 PM

It's hilarious how insecure the Kobe stains are in this thread. :oldlol:

SwishSquared

11-14-2015, 09:54 PM

Hakeem is unique indeed - in 1995, he became the only player to ever win a championship while taking 25+ shot attempts per game at 45%+ field goal percentage - this means he's the only player to ever shoot well at high volume AND win a championship.

Oh wait.. There's one other guy that did it - MJ did it 4 times, in 1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998.. But go back the basics - high shot volume by itself might control pace somewhat, but it can't win.. High shot volume AND high efficiency can win, as MJ and Hakeem proved.

Btw, would you like you see someone like Lebron DO MORE, like take more shots and score more points at the same efficiency - that's Jordan - Jordan took far more shots per game and scored more at the same or better efficiency.. The stats show this clearly - MJ is the greatest high volume shooter of all time:

PER GAME IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 33.4 pts.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 ast.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 25.1 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
DURANT:. 28.9 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 3.8 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 1.2 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
LEBRON:. 28.2 pts.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 ast.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
KOBE:.... 25.6 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 4.1 dreb.. 4.7 ast.. 2.9 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 0.7 blk.. 20.5 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:... 22.9 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.1 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 1.6 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 17.4 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

PER 100 POSSESSIONS IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 tsI get that this has been your shtick for the entirety of your posting on this board (and similarly apparently on Real GM based on that thread somebody recently made), but that line about Hakeem was him not winning titles under Phil Jackson or Pat Riley. All other guys that I put in my post either had those guys as a coach or GM when they were winning.

Nice try to change the topic discussed in my post from ATG NBA leadership at the coaching/FO level to scoring.I have got to stop feeding trolls on this site, even unintentionally.

gcvbcat

11-14-2015, 10:39 PM

shakeel is an overrratrd jihadist. he was dominant only because incomprtrnt refs did not call travels on him.

AlphaWolf24

11-14-2015, 11:58 PM

Kobe better than Shaq at 2001 playoffs .

Kobe better then Snaq in 2001, 2002,2003, 2004,2006,2007,2008,2009,2010 playoffs also

houston

11-15-2015, 12:04 AM

not really but I get the point

3ball

11-15-2015, 03:44 AM

I get that this has been your shtick for the entirety of your posting on this board (and similarly apparently on Real GM based on that thread somebody recently made), but that line about Hakeem was him not winning titles under Phil Jackson or Pat Riley. All other guys that I put in my post either had those guys as a coach or GM when they were winning.

I asked a question, but you never answered - would you like you see someone like Lebron DO MORE, like take more shots and score more points at the same efficiency - well that's Jordan - Jordan took far more shots per game and scored more at the same or better efficiency.. The stats show this clearly - MJ is the greatest high volume shooter of all time:

PER GAME IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 33.4 pts.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 ast.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 25.1 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
DURANT:. 28.9 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 3.8 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 1.2 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
LEBRON:. 28.2 pts.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 ast.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
KOBE:.... 25.6 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 4.1 dreb.. 4.7 ast.. 2.9 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 0.7 blk.. 20.5 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:... 22.9 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.1 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 1.6 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 17.4 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

PER 100 POSSESSIONS IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

dhsilv

11-15-2015, 04:08 AM

I asked a question, but you never answered - would you like you see someone like Lebron DO MORE, like take more shots and score more points at the same efficiency - well that's Jordan - Jordan took far more shots per game and scored more at the same or better efficiency.. The stats show this clearly - MJ is the greatest high volume shooter of all time:

PER GAME IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 33.4 pts.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 ast.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 25.1 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
DURANT:. 28.9 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 3.8 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 1.2 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
LEBRON:. 28.2 pts.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 ast.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 20.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
KOBE:.... 25.6 pts.. 1.0 oreb.. 4.1 dreb.. 4.7 ast.. 2.9 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 0.7 blk.. 20.5 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:... 22.9 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.1 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 1.6 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 17.4 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

PER 100 POSSESSIONS IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

Do you know anything about basketball? Shooting more is nearly always bad. Jordan is the one and ONLY modern exception of a guy who could do that! A FLUKE!

3ball

11-15-2015, 03:15 PM

PER 100 POSSESSIONS IN PLAYOFFS

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

Do you know anything about basketball? Shooting more is nearly always bad. Jordan is the one and ONLY modern exception of a guy who could do that! A FLUKE!

If MJ's peers could shoot/score more at the same efficiency WHILE winning championships - they would - would you agree?

But instead, the stats of MJ's peers are all similar and bunched together in group, while MJ's production stands alone by itself at the top - that's exactly what the stats look like (above).

So MJ's ability to shoot well at high volume separated him from everyone, as the stats show above.