Current Draymond Green vs Prime Odom

[Ca$H]

Draymond: 12.3 PPG, 7.9 RPG, 7.1 APG, 1.5 STLPG, 1.5 BLKPG, 18.35 PER Top 5 defender in the NBA

Who is better?

[KrizMiz]

Odom - and its not even close

[TheImmortal]

Draymond Green and it ain't even close.. There's a reason Odom is called "Odumb".. dude has zero focus and lacks motivation for the game.. give me a guy that has fire in Draymond. Better shooter, passer, can push the ball up the floor better (odom only went one way and couldn't pass for shit to the right side of the court) and a better defender. Green >>>> Odumb.

For And1 streetball, Odumb would be a good choice though.

[Prime_Shaq]

On a good day? Odom, better scorer + rebounder but the problem with Odom has always been his consistency. Green would be a more stable choice.

[Uncle Drew]

Draymond's impact isn't in the stats.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Dray Green : 12 / 8 / 7 on 55%TS
06 Odom : 15 / 9 / 6 on 56%TS ----(20 / 13 / 2 on 56%TS in the playoffs)

They were both great defenders.
Close... but I think Odom was the greater talent.

[Magic 32]

Odom at his best (2011) was also Odom at his most disappointing (2011 playoffs).

In that way he is at lot like Green.

Third options at their best. Doing all the little things.

[feyki]

Dray .

[Genaro]

Odom had a lot more talent but he was inconsistent and lazy. Dray shows up every night.
The rest of the team composition matters. If you're looking for a defensive player Green would be the better choice, if your defense is already good you go with Odom for his superior offensive talent.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Odom had a lot more talent but he was inconsistent and lazy. Dray shows up every night.
The rest of the team composition matters. If you're looking for a defensive player Green would be the better choice, if your defense is already good you go with Odom for his superior offensive talent.

Agreed.

Odom had a good NBA career but some could argue it should have been a lot better. He had a ton of offensive capability as a 6'9'' player and PG like handles.

Green has made the most out of his physical tools. His work ethic is outstanding. Jumpshot is great, his follow through is very mechanical and has been working in his favor. Green has the larger "market" type of personality than Odom. He's a goofy young player who puts in the effort and it shows.

[HOoopCityJones]

It's close. Draymond bringing elite Defense kinda tilts scales here.

Love LO in transition tho

[DMAVS41]

I'd probably take Odom, but it's close.

Also, Green is the clear cut better defender. Green's defense is being under-rated here.

[SwishSquared]

Give me Draymond. Really high motor and you know what you'll get with him nightly. Odom was an X-Factor for the Lakers- they were really hard to beat when he was on but you couldn't count on him showing up every game.

Also, Green is a fantastic rim protector. If Odom were in his prime now, he'd playing a ton of C, too. I think Draymond is a smarter guy on D though.

Odom was more talented, for sure, especially with his handle.

[Hopper15]

Both are pretty equal skill wise. But I'd lean towards Green as he plays with more intensity than Odom on a nightly basis.

[brandonislegend]

PRIME odom?

easily odom if thats the case

[inclinerator]

green's defense is easily better

[DaOldLion]

green's defense is easily better

his playmaking is better, his rebounding is better, and yes his defense is on another level

and he's way more consistent

[warriorfan]

green's defense is easily better

you dont know shit about basketball

Lamar was at least a top 5 defensive player in the league during his championship runs with the Lakers...

[Dr Hawk]

you dont know shit about basketball

Lamar was at least a top 5 defensive player in the league during his championship runs with the Lakers...

No. At least Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Lebron, Bogutm Deng and Iguodala over him

[dhsilv]

you dont know shit about basketball

Lamar was at least a top 5 defensive player in the league during his championship runs with the Lakers...

Top 5...no chance in hell. He was a very good defender and was a HUGE reason for the Gasol/Kobe lakers winning their two titles.

Green should have been the defensive player of the year. He is the best defensive player in basketball right now.

That said Odom was a legit top 20 player during that 08-11 time frame. This board seems to often under value the "other guys" on the lakers who weren't kobe.

These two are pretty close but Green isn't in his prime yet and he's got a lot of opportunity to grow on the offensive end.

[DaOldLion]

you dont know shit about basketball

Lamar was at least a top 5 defensive player in the league during his championship runs with the Lakers...


:oldlol: :oldlol:

can you please explain how a top 5 defensive player in the league during those years didn't make any all defensive teams or finish in the top 16 for DPOY voting..

[DaOldLion]

Top 5...no chance in hell. He was a very good defender and was a HUGE reason for the Gasol/Kobe lakers winning their two titles.

Green should have been the defensive player of the year. He is the best defensive player in basketball right now.

That said Odom was a legit top 20 player during that 08-11 time frame. This board seems to often under value the "other guys" on the lakers who weren't kobe.

These two are pretty close but Green isn't in his prime yet and he's got a lot of opportunity to grow on the offensive end.


then how come he was selected as one of the top 24 players each of those years during the all star game? You can talk about fan voting all you want but he wasn't good enough to be a starter, and that's all the fans vote on..

[warriorfan]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

can you please explain how a top 5 defensive player in the league during those years didn't make any all defensive teams or finish in the top 16 for DPOY voting..

*****, DPOY voting is a sham. Perfect example of this is when DeAndre Jordan finished neck and neck with Green and Leonard for DPOY votes last year. Do you honestly think DJ was near the best defender in the league last season? If you do then you can just stop reading here.


name 5 players better defensively than Odom in 2009...

Dwight
Kevin Garnett
Bogut would of been but he was injured
Tim Duncan maybe

and that is it....

Odom was a defensive stud back in the day. Very versatile defender that could guard the perimeter and also protect the rim. Could pretty much cover every position on the court off switches for limited stretches of time much like Garnett could.

[warriorfan]

No. At least Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Lebron, Bogutm Deng and Iguodala over him

Bogut was injured a lot during those years.

Deng and Iguodala could not protect the rim nor guard bigs the way that Lamar Odom did. Deng and Iguodala could not rebound like Odom did. Odom had much more defensive impact. Odom was scoring near 2x the score of Deng and Iguodala in Defensive RAPM in 2009.

[bdreason]

DayGod would crush Odom both mentally and emotionally in a H2H series matchup.

[dhsilv]

then how come he was selected as one of the top 24 players each of those years during the all star game? You can talk about fan voting all you want but he wasn't good enough to be a starter, and that's all the fans vote on..

He was in the west, where 15 of the 24 best normally are. He was under valued. Forwards were also pretty stacked those years.

[Showtime2001]

Draymond and its not even close.

[theaussieguy]

The one with less brain damage

[DaOldLion]

*****, DPOY voting is a sham. Perfect example of this is when DeAndre Jordan finished neck and neck with Green and Leonard for DPOY votes last year. Do you honestly think DJ was near the best defender in the league last season? If you do then you can just stop reading here.


name 5 players better defensively than Odom in 2009...

Dwight
Kevin Garnett
Bogut would of been but he was injured
Tim Duncan maybe

and that is it....

Odom was a defensive stud back in the day. Very versatile defender that could guard the perimeter and also protect the rim. Could pretty much cover every position on the court off switches for limited stretches of time much like Garnett could.


Wade, Lebron, Paul, Battier, Rondo, Gerald Wallace, MWP, Marion, AK47, etc etc etc etc

Odom never received a single vote for DPOY and never made a all defensive team.. if you are top 5 in the league then you would have received a DPOY vote or made an all defensive team

[warriorfan]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

can you please explain how a top 5 defensive player in the league during those years didn't make any all defensive teams or finish in the top 16 for DPOY voting..


*****, DPOY voting is a sham. Perfect example of this is when DeAndre Jordan finished neck and neck with Green and Leonard for DPOY votes last year. Do you honestly think DJ was near the best defender in the league last season? If you do then you can just stop reading here.



What's up with people not watching games or taking into account stats and just going along with whatever the hell the Media votes for? :facepalm

[DaOldLion]

whats up with people making ridiculous claims and then getting destroyed when their claim is challenged :oldlol:

i'll ask again, if he was top 5 then he would have received a vote for DPOY.. I'm not even asking for him to have won, or finished 2nd or something.. just get yourself on the ballot big dawg :lol

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html

[warriorfan]

whats up with people making ridiculous claims and then getting destroyed when their claim is challenged :oldlol:

i'll ask again, if he was top 5 then he would have received a vote for DPOY.. I'm not even asking for him to have won, or finished 2nd or something.. just get yourself on the ballot big dawg :lol

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html

Too bad you never watched the games and made an informed opinion of your own.

Deepthroating whatever the media shoves you is not a good look.

[DaOldLion]

Too bad you never watched the games and made an informed opinion of your own.

Deepthroating whatever the media shoves you is not a good look.

and calling somebody who never made the ballot for DPOY voting and never made the all defensive team (voted on by COACHES not MEDIA pre 2015) is making you look like a complete dumb ass

:roll: :roll:

[warriorfan]

and calling somebody who never made the ballot for DPOY voting and never made the all defensive team (voted on by COACHES not MEDIA pre 2015) is making you look like a complete dumb ass

:roll: :roll:

http://www.nba.com/2014/news/04/21/joakim-noah-kia-defensive-award-release/


NEW YORK -- Chicago Bulls center Joakim Noah, the centerpiece of a defense which held opponents to a league-low 91.8 ppg, is the recipient of the 2013-14 Kia NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award, the NBA announced today. Noah becomes the first Bulls player since Michael Jordan in 1987-88 to earn the honor.

Noah received 555 of a possible 1,125 points, including 100 first-place votes, from a panel of 125 sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada. Indiana's Roy Hibbert (166 points, eight first-place votes) and the Los Angeles Clippers' DeAndre Jordan (121 points, eight first-place votes) finished second and third, respectively. Players were awarded five points for each first-place vote, three points for each second-place vote and one point for each third-place vote received.

[DaOldLion]

can you read?

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

and calling somebody who never made the ballot for DPOY voting and never made the all defensive team (voted on by COACHES not MEDIA pre 2015) is making you look like a complete dumb ass

:roll: :roll:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/04/21/dpoy.20090421/


Howard became the fifth player in NBA history to finish the season leading the league in rebounding and blocks (1973-74 was the first season blocks were kept as an official statistic). The select group includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (L.A. Lakers, 1975-76), Bill Walton (Portland Trail Blazers, 1976-77), Hakeem Olajuwon (Houston, 1989-90) and Ben Wallace (Detroit, 2001-02).

Howard received 542 points, including 105 first-place votes, from a panel of 119 sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada. Cleveland's LeBron James finished second with 148 points and Miami's Dwyane Wade finished third with 90 points. Players were awarded five points for each first-place vote, three points for each second-place vote and one point for each third-place vote received.



:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DaOldLion]

the all defensive team has been voted on by coaches up until last year

stop melting down and compose yourself, it's killing your reading comprehension

[warriorfan]

DaOldLion doesn't watch games, just reads the All-NBA lists

:roll:

[warriorfan]

List 5 players of 2009 that were better defensively than Lamar Odom and use your own words to describe why...

I wont hold my breath.

[DaOldLion]

meltdown, can't even read properly :oldlol:

If you aren't receiving any votes from the media (DPOY) and not making any all defensive teams (Coaches vote pre 2015) then you're not a top 5 defender in the league :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

meltdown, can't even read properly :oldlol:

If you aren't receiving any votes from the media (DPOY) and not making any all defensive teams (Coaches vote pre 2015) then you're not a top 5 defender in the league :oldlol:


List 5 players of 2009 that were better defensively than Lamar Odom and use your own words to describe why...

I wont hold my breath.

:confusedshrug:

[DaOldLion]

List 5 players of 2009 that were better defensively than Lamar Odom and use your own words to describe why...

I wont hold my breath.

Duncan, Dwight, Wade, Battier, Lebron, Chris Paul, KG, all easily better

[DMAVS41]

meltdown, can't even read properly :oldlol:

If you aren't receiving any votes from the media (DPOY) and not making any all defensive teams (Coaches vote pre 2015) then you're not a top 5 defender in the league :oldlol:

Why?

I'm not saying he was necessarily, but the media was really dumb back then. The kind of smart media that exists now simply didn't exist back in 09.

Coaches also vote absurdly and have different criteria than one might want to have when determining who was actually a better defender.

[warriorfan]

Duncan, Dwight, Wade, Battier, Lebron, Chris Paul, KG, all easily better


List 5 players of 2009 that were better defensively than Lamar Odom and use your own words to describe why...


:facepalm

[warriorfan]

Why?

I'm not saying he was necessarily, but the media was really dumb back then. The kind of smart media that exists now simply didn't exist back in 09.

Coaches also vote absurdly and have different criteria than one might want to have when determining who was actually a better defender.

He hasn't been able to make any commentary on the best defenders of 2009 besides listing off who made the All-Defensive team and who won DPOY.

What an embarrassing level of basketball knowledge. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Duncan, Dwight, Wade, Battier, Lebron, Chris Paul, KG, all easily better

Wade and Paul were absolutely not easily better.

[DaOldLion]

Why?

I'm not saying he was necessarily, but the media was really dumb back then. The kind of smart media that exists now simply didn't exist back in 09.

Coaches also vote absurdly and have different criteria than one might want to have when determining who was actually a better defender.

Wad Odom better defensively than Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Dwight or KG?

[DMAVS41]

Wad Odom better defensively than Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Dwight or KG?

I'd take Odom's defensive impact over Wade in 09...Wade might have been capable of playing better defense if he put all his energy into it, but Wade was too busy carrying an offense.

Wade played really good defense for a guard in 09, but he did not impact his team's defense as highly as Odom did.

[DaOldLion]

He hasn't been able to make any commentary on the best defenders of 2009 besides listing off who made the All-Defensive team and who won DPOY.

What an embarrassing level of basketball knowledge. :facepalm

the guy who spends all his time on a message board trying to down play every teammate Curry has is trying to tell us that Draymond Greene isn't as good defensively as Lamar Odom :oldlol:

2009 Defensive win shares

1. Dwight Howard ▪ ORL 7.6
2. LeBron James ▪ CLE 6.5
3. Rajon Rondo ▪ BOS 5.1
4. Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 5.0
5. Yao Ming ▪ HOU 5.0



Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1. Dwight Howard ▪ ORL 4.3
2. Kendrick Perkins ▪ BOS 4.1
3. Kevin Garnett ▪ BOS 3.7
4. Marcus Camby ▪ LAC 3.7
5. LeBron James ▪ CLE 3.6

[warriorfan]

Wad Odom better defensively than Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Dwight or KG?

Can you tell us why LeBron and Wade were better defenders than Lamar Odom in 2009? :confusedshrug:

[DaOldLion]

I'd take Odom's defensive impact over Wade in 09...Wade might have been capable of playing better defense if he put all his energy into it, but Wade was too busy carrying an offense.

Wade played really good defense for a guard in 09, but he did not impact his team's defense as highly as Odom did.

Odom was the most inconsistent player in the league out of players who were good enough to matter, didn't bring it every game like Wade did. Wade also played 10 more minutes per game than Odom so his defensive impact was felt more throughout the game than Lamars.. Averaged more steals, better DWS, was about even with blocks..

Odom's defensive wasn't anything special, I'd really love to know how anybody could believe that a top 5 defensive player wouldn't even make the DPOY ballot while being ignored for the all defensive team also.. It's one thing to say the best defender didn't win DPOY (which happens) but when has an elite defender that is "top 5" in the league not even make the DPOY ballot, and get completely ignored on the defensive teams

[warriorfan]

Odom was the most inconsistent player in the league out of players who were good enough to matter, didn't bring it every game like Wade did. Wade also played 10 more minutes per game than Odom so his defensive impact was felt more throughout the game than Lamars.. Averaged more steals, better DWS, was about even with blocks..

Odom's defensive wasn't anything special, I'd really love to know how anybody could believe that a top 5 defensive player wouldn't even make the DPOY ballot while being ignored for the all defensive team also.. It's one thing to say the best defender didn't win DPOY (which happens) but when has an elite defender that is "top 5" in the league not even make the DPOY ballot, and get completely ignored on the defensive teams


So Wade was a better defender because he averaged more steals and had more defensive win shares?

I'm not trying to be a dick here but seriously stop posting you don't know shit about basketball.

[DaOldLion]

Can you tell us why LeBron and Wade were better defenders than Lamar Odom in 2009? :confusedshrug:

can you tell me why Odom was better? I've given you plenty of evidence, the fact that he wasn't even on the DPOY ballot, that he wasn't selected for all defensive team, that he wasn't top 5 in DWS, etc etc..

yet you haven't given any evidence to back up your claim

[DaOldLion]

And all of these guys played 10 more mpg than Odom, their defensive impact was felt more throughout the game than Odoms seeing as they were on the court for a longer period of time

[Gus Hemmingway]

DaOldLion straight SHITTING on Warriorsfan :lol


Curry fam is a joke

[DaOldLion]

here's the list for every player who didn't make the all defensive team list in 09, but still received a vote

Tayshaun Prince, Detroit, 15 (3); Raja Bell, Charlotte, 8 (2); Joel Przybilla, Portland, 7 (1); Chauncey Billups, Denver, 5; Ronnie Brewer, Utah, 5 (1); Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia, 5; Yao Ming, Houston, 5; Emeka Okafor, Charlotte, 5 (1); Kendrick Perkins, Boston, 4 (1); Samuel Dalembert, Philadelphia, 3; Derek Fisher, L.A. Lakers, 3 (1); Udonis Haslem, Miami, 3; Jason Kidd, Dallas, 3 (1); Anderson Varejao, Cleveland, 3; Deron Williams, Utah, 3; Trevor Ariza, L.A. Lakers, 2; Kirk Hinrich, Chicago, 2; Joe Johnson, Atlanta, 2 (1); Andrei Kirilenko, Utah, 2 (1); David Lee, New York, 2 (1); James Posey, New Orleans, 2; J.R. Smith, Denver, 2 (1); Gerald Wallace, Charlotte, 2; Nen

[DMAVS41]

Odom was the most inconsistent player in the league out of players who were good enough to matter, didn't bring it every game like Wade did. Wade also played 10 more minutes per game than Odom so his defensive impact was felt more throughout the game than Lamars.. Averaged more steals, better DWS, was about even with blocks..

Odom's defensive wasn't anything special, I'd really love to know how anybody could believe that a top 5 defensive player wouldn't even make the DPOY ballot while being ignored for the all defensive team also.. It's one thing to say the best defender didn't win DPOY (which happens) but when has an elite defender that is "top 5" in the league not even make the DPOY ballot, and get completely ignored on the defensive teams

the minutes argument above is the only good one.

Odom was a really good defensive rebounder. He could play the pick and roll and recover. He could get switched onto smaller players and not get burned...he could play backside help and protect the rim...

He's also just an under-rated smart player. He knew where to go and how to defend specific situations and players.

Like I said...I love Wade...not knocking him...he was just focused on so many other things other than defense/defensive rebounding (kind of go together actually) to actually make as big of an impact

Also, a player of Odom's size and position is just going to most of the time...impact the defense more

I'm not getting into the top 5 argument because I don't want to really think about it too much, but Odom really was an under-rated defensive player. Having said that, Green is clearly better defensively imo.

[warriorfan]

can you tell me why Odom was better? I've given you plenty of evidence, the fact that he wasn't even on the DPOY ballot, that he wasn't selected for all defensive team, that he wasn't top 5 in DWS, etc etc..

yet you haven't given any evidence to back up your claim

For one Odom didn't have the offensive responsibilities as Wade or LeBron so he was able to give a more consistent effort on the defensive side of the ball. In addition Lamar Odom had way more versatility in defense when compared to LeBron and Wade. Odom could guard the perimeter and protect the rim as well and can defend more positions than LeBron and Wade both can. Odom was a much better rebounder than both LeBron and Wade as well.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

Sort by defensive split and you will see he was one of the most impactful players defensively in 2009.

[catch24]

People really using RAPM as their "evidence"?

AThe "stat (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm)" ranking Dirk ahead of Wade and LeBron defensively?

Odom was definitely key to our success, and one of the best players coming off the bench, but he wasn't better than Draymond defensively. Offensively is a FAR closer debate.

[juju151111]

For one Odom didn't have the offensive responsibilities as Wade or LeBron so he was able to give a more consistent effort on the defensive side of the ball. In addition Lamar Odom had way more versatility in defense when compared to LeBron and Wade. Odom could guard the perimeter and protect the rim as well and can defend more positions than LeBron and Wade both can. Odom was a much better rebounder than both LeBron and Wade as well.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

Sort by defensive split and you will see he was one of the most impactful players defensively in 2009.
Agreed here it is too https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm He wasn't better then Green last year through. Green had the higher Drapm

[DMAVS41]

People really using RAPM as their "evidence"?

AThe "stat (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm)" ranking Dirk ahead of Wade and LeBron defensively?

Odom was definitely key to our success, and one of the best players coming off the bench, but he wasn't better than Draymond defensively. Offensively is a FAR closer debate.

I have Green over Odom defensively, but that isn't how RAPM is used. You don't really compare PF's with perimeter players...

Although really it does call into question what kind of impact perimeter players are really having on defense when they aren't consistently elite...which is why you see Battier consistently score so well imo.

[juju151111]

People really using RAPM as their "evidence"?

AThe "stat (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm)" ranking Dirk ahead of Wade and LeBron defensively?

Odom was definitely key to our success, and one of the best players coming off the bench, but he wasn't better than Draymond defensively. Offensively is a FAR closer debate.
Dirk was a good defender in his younger years and their is noting wrong with Rapm

[DaOldLion]

For one Odom didn't have the offensive responsibilities as Wade or LeBron so he was able to give a more consistent effort on the defensive side of the ball. In addition Lamar Odom had way more versatility in defense when compared to LeBron and Wade. Odom could guard the perimeter and protect the rim as well and can defend more positions than LeBron and Wade both can. Odom was a much better rebounder than both LeBron and Wade as well.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/

Sort by defensive split and you will see he was one of the most impactful players defensively in 2009.

I did and 2009 Dwight Howard wasn't even top 20 in the league in defensive impact.. :wtf: :wtf:

great stat..

[dhsilv]

People really using RAPM as their "evidence"?

AThe "stat (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm)" ranking Dirk ahead of Wade and LeBron defensively?

Odom was definitely key to our success, and one of the best players coming off the bench, but he wasn't better than Draymond defensively. Offensively is a FAR closer debate.

It is the best "single stat" we have. However unlike say PER which is a clear formula. Stats created through some of these more complex statistical models if the goal is to say is so and so better, there's a margin for error which is somewhat high here.

For what it's worth KG (missed games), Camby, Battier (if you're ok with missing 22 games), Lebron (he was a legit great defender that year, able to guard all but skilled post players), Duncan, and Howard would be my list of guys I'm pretty sure are better. I'm just not sure that Ramp was able to correctly isolate what Odom was doing vs. what having 3 giants on the court like the lakers did does for defense. Odom not being a rim protector just leaves me a bit off here and he's not the freakish on ball guys Battier was.

You have others like Ben Wallace and Artest still around who'd be in this discussion as well. Same with a handful of others.

[fpliii]

People really using RAPM as their "evidence"?

AThe "stat (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm)" ranking Dirk ahead of Wade and LeBron defensively?

Odom was definitely key to our success, and one of the best players coming off the bench, but he wasn't better than Draymond defensively. Offensively is a FAR closer debate.
That's a bad site. colts18 didn't actually calculate RAPM, he just took it from a bunch of different sources (all of which use different priors), and added them together.

Problem with that is, you remove the benefits from an actual multi-year RAPM sample (namely eliminating covariance with teammates due to possessions overlap, allowing players to move further from the mean of zero, and not weighing by possessions each year appropriately).

J.E. actually put out 15 year RAPM recently (here it is raw (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0) and age-adjusted (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-R9RXLp6eYuRcptQIQVTBIkLrxvrTCfLh_WB2P-DBwE/edit#gid=0)).

RAPM doesn't claim to answer the question 'is player A better than player B', all it does is attempt to isolate (using a peer-reviewed mathematical process) each player's impact on scoring margin.

Be careful when using off/def splits, since transition play can muck things up since play moves quickly from off->def and vice versa. There are some relationships that might affect the split (which is a separate regression, after total RAPM is calculated):

Inflate off split
high STLs
high DRBs

Inflate def split
low TOVs
high FG%

[bigkingsfan]

First time I've heard Odom top five anything.

[fpliii]

It is the best "single stat" we have. However unlike say PER which is a clear formula. Stats created through some of these more complex statistical models if the goal is to say is so and so better, there's a margin for error which is somewhat high here.
Error is around +/- 2.0 from an earlier study by J.E. (https://web.archive.org/web/20150206043736/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.html).

[WorldWarriors]

Odom was the guy I rooted for from the time he was drafted. Talented but could never quite put it together to become elite at his game. Dray on the other hand not nearly as talented but has the will to work and improve. He's smart and wants to be a winner. And now he's not only a great defender but he's a legit 3 point threat and another facilitator for the team. Right now he's averaging more assists than Steph. He got a triple double last night. These are things Lamar could have excelled at. But for whatever reason he just couldn't. So on that note, I'm gonna go with Dray.

[juju151111]

That's a bad site. colts18 didn't actually calculate RAPM, he just took it from a bunch of different sources (all of which use different priors), and added them together.

Problem with that is, you remove the benefits from an actual multi-year RAPM sample (namely eliminating covariance with teammates due to possessions overlap, allowing players to move further from the mean of zero, and not weighing by possessions each year appropriately).

J.E. actually put out 15 year RAPM recently (here it is raw (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0) and age-adjusted (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-R9RXLp6eYuRcptQIQVTBIkLrxvrTCfLh_WB2P-DBwE/edit#gid=0)).

RAPM doesn't claim to answer the question 'is player A better than player B', all it does is attempt to isolate (using a peer-reviewed mathematical process) each player's impact on scoring margin.

Be careful when using off/def splits, since transition play can muck things up since play moves quickly from off->def and vice versa. There are some relationships that might affect the split (which is a separate regression, after total RAPM is calculated):

Inflate off split
high STLs
high DRBs

Inflate def split
low TOVs
high FG%
Where can you view the individual year through spreadsheet. They are discussing 09 odom and last year Green.

[fpliii]

Where can you view the individual year through spreadsheet. They are discussing 09 odom and last year Green.
Single year for 01 - 15:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/11181n4avq5wefk/AAAZ4muMkVh3aNDYIzq_NNHEa?dl=0

Multi-year (weighs previous seasons less; adding past seasons improves predictive value, but can hurt explanatory value, since it includes past season data; I mostly use non-prior informed/NPI/single year):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0

Both were pretty elite (before somebody jumps in complaining about them both being near the top...remember to only compare players who are playing similar roles to one another), but the differences fall within the margin of error in both single year and multi-year. Can't really use RAPM to separate them.

[Donkey4trading]

That's a bad site. colts18 didn't actually calculate RAPM, he just took it from a bunch of different sources (all of which use different priors), and added them together.

Problem with that is, you remove the benefits from an actual multi-year RAPM sample (namely eliminating covariance with teammates due to possessions overlap, allowing players to move further from the mean of zero, and not weighing by possessions each year appropriately).

J.E. actually put out 15 year RAPM recently (here it is raw (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0) and age-adjusted (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-R9RXLp6eYuRcptQIQVTBIkLrxvrTCfLh_WB2P-DBwE/edit#gid=0)).

RAPM doesn't claim to answer the question 'is player A better than player B', all it does is attempt to isolate (using a peer-reviewed mathematical process) each player's impact on scoring margin.

Be careful when using off/def splits, since transition play can muck things up since play moves quickly from off->def and vice versa. There are some relationships that might affect the split (which is a separate regression, after total RAPM is calculated):

Inflate off split
high STLs
high DRBs

Inflate def split
low TOVs
high FG%

Why do guys like Dirk rank higher offensively than guys who were obviously superior like Shaq? Manu > Stockton offensively?

[catch24]

That's a bad site. colts18 didn't actually calculate RAPM, he just took it from a bunch of different sources (all of which use different priors), and added them together.

Problem with that is, you remove the benefits from an actual multi-year RAPM sample (namely eliminating covariance with teammates due to possessions overlap, allowing players to move further from the mean of zero, and not weighing by possessions each year appropriately).

J.E. actually put out 15 year RAPM recently (here it is raw (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0) and age-adjusted (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-R9RXLp6eYuRcptQIQVTBIkLrxvrTCfLh_WB2P-DBwE/edit#gid=0)).

RAPM doesn't claim to answer the question 'is player A better than player B', all it does is attempt to isolate (using a peer-reviewed mathematical process) each player's impact on scoring margin.

Be careful when using off/def splits, since transition play can muck things up since play moves quickly from off->def and vice versa. There are some relationships that might affect the split (which is a separate regression, after total RAPM is calculated):

Inflate off split
high STLs
high DRBs

Inflate def split
low TOVs
high FG%

Thanks for the info.

I figured that site was off. Just too many inconsistencies to take at face value. Posters in this thread, and in a few more I recently had discussions in, were using this chart as their holy grail of evidence. Pretty hilarious.

Watching games with basic stats is all I really need... But of course that's just me.

[DMAVS41]

Single year for 01 - 15:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/11181n4avq5wefk/AAAZ4muMkVh3aNDYIzq_NNHEa?dl=0

Multi-year (weighs previous seasons less; adding past seasons improves predictive value, but can hurt explanatory value, since it includes past season data; I mostly use non-prior informed/NPI/single year):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0

Both were pretty elite (before somebody jumps in complaining about them both being near the top...remember to only compare players who are playing similar roles to one another), but the differences fall within the margin of error in both single year and multi-year. Can't really use RAPM to separate them.

Not sure why everyone can't grasp the bold.

[dhsilv]

Error is around +/- 2.0 from an earlier study by J.E. (https://web.archive.org/web/20150206043736/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.html).

Yeah, I know the RAMP error is 2.0. What about just the defensive aspect, which seems at least gut to be a higher error than the combined.

[DMAVS41]

Thanks for the info.

I figured that site was off. Just too many inconsistencies to take at face value. Posters in this thread, and in a few more I recently had discussions in, were using this chart as their holy grail of evidence. Pretty hilarious.

Watching games with basic stats is all I really need... But of course that's just me.


Nothing wrong with that, but also a bit harder to find errors in value and impact.

I'd argue the Arenas vs Duncan stuff we talked about would be one of those errors.

Now, I'm not saying RAPM is the way to fix it, but I don't think looking at less good data is the best course of action.

[fpliii]

Why do guys like Dirk rank higher offensively than guys who were obviously superior like Shaq?
Part of it might be issues with the offense/defense splits...I mostly use the total number (and it is a nice analog to a team stat like SRS). Playoffs are weighted more (2x as much as regular season possessions), but while Dirk was very good in the playoffs, Shaq was a monster at his best towards the end of the postseason. But Dirk isn't far off from GOAT offensive big man tier (especially at his peak).

Thanks for the info.

I figured that site was off. Just too many inconsistencies to take at face value. Posters in this thread, and in a few more I recently had discussions in, were using this chart as their holy grail of evidence. Pretty hilarious.

Watching games with basic stats is all I really need... But of course that's just me.
Yeah. There's a lot of miscommunication with it, and as I think I've noted before, a lot of sources add their own methodology/priors. J.E. didn't do any favors since he's used 'RAPM' on his site interchangeably to refer to NPI RAPM, multi-year RAPM, xRAPM/RPM, and 'fake RAPM'. Then sites like colts' and talking practice use their own priors and lambdas. A lot of these tweaks improve predictive value from year n-1 to year n, but you lose the explanatory power. I honestly don't get behind anything aside from vanilla NPI RAPM, because it can be replicated.

Watching games and impact stats (RAPM, net on/off, and SRS with/without) is the base of my analysis (not saying my methodology is any better than anyone else's, just what works for me; I don't consider box score/box score based stats or accolades, though I know most do). I also like to monitor some specifics/take notes when watching games sometimes (kind of like stuff from Synergy, like how well a team ran a certain offensive set, or shot charts, watching for defensive errors).

[juju151111]

[/B]

Nothing wrong with that, but also a bit harder to find errors in value and impact.

I'd argue the Arenas vs Duncan stuff we talked about would be one of those errors.

Now, I'm not saying RAPM is the way to fix it, but I don't think looking at less good data is the best course of action.
Agreed and KG is a monster defensively.

[dhsilv]

Thanks for the info.

I figured that site was off. Just too many inconsistencies to take at face value. Posters in this thread, and in a few more I recently had discussions in, were using this chart as their holy grail of evidence. Pretty hilarious.

Watching games with basic stats is all I really need... But of course that's just me.

Advanced stats can really help in identifying where our biases are clouding our judgement. I'd LOVE to be 3ball and claim Lebron is full of empty stats and isn't nearly as good as he is. I dislike watching him play, his style seems poor, and I constantly want to down play him. Stats work as a nice smack to the face and I have to accept that I just dislike how he plays, but it works.

[juju151111]

Dirk has a high Offensive rating because he is efficient and shoot alot of 3s and high Ft%.

[fpliii]

Yeah, I know the RAMP error is 2.0. What about just the defensive aspect, which seems at least gut to be a higher error than the combined.
The offense/defense splits are a separate regression, but the process is analogous (literally involves swapping some +/- signs in the source file and running the same code). I can't give you a direct answer, but each of offense and defense is probably +/- 2.0, though no study has been performed.

I would just be careful with them. Almost every team uses some form of RAPM, but a big part of it is in player acquisitions/lineup optimization.

[dhsilv]

The offense/defense splits are a separate regression, but the process is analogous (literally involves swapping some +/- signs in the source file and running the same code). I can't give you a direct answer, but each of offense and defense is probably +/- 2.0, though no study has been performed.

I would just be careful with them. Almost every team uses some form of RAPM, but a big part of it is in player acquisitions/lineup optimization.

Hasn't PER actually preformed as well or better than RAMP in projecting wins for teams with major pieces being traded? Or was that just a few studies done where that worked out just through some level of dumb luck?

[ralph_i_el]

Give me Dray for an entire season, and Odom on his best day.

[fpliii]

Hasn't PER actually preformed as well or better than RAMP in projecting wins for teams with major pieces being traded? Or was that just a few studies done where that worked out just through some level of dumb luck?
Not sure, would need to see the studies to give my take. Do you have a link?

[sundizz]

It is a bit tough to say because they both are excellent in somewhat oddly different ways. Dray is (now) a significantly better three point shooter. Odom is a naturally better scorer and ball handler.

With Steph Curry, Draymond Green is a significantly better fit since Dray simply needs to finish plays off, not initiate them or his own offense.

With Kobe, Lamar is a much better fit because Lamar will initiate on his own due to his halfcourt ball handling, array of moves (e.g., baby hooks), and is a bit better at knowing how to rebound with a superstar.

Defensively, people don't give Lamar enough credit. He was an excellent defender. Tall, lanky, and strong. He wasn't a Dray level defender, but Dray gets a ton of help that Lamar didn't necessarily always have. Lakers always were more of a do it on your own style than these Dubs are.

At the end of the day it'll be Dray because of his attention to detail, intensity and the team that he plays with caters to him getting across the board numbers.

He could easily have a 15 ppg, 9 rpg, 7 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg on 45%, 35%, 77% line this upcoming in a lengthy (WCF reaching at minimum) playoff run and that would cement him as having arguably 2 significantly better post season runs than anything Lamar has done.

[dhsilv]

Not sure, would need to see the studies to give my take. Do you have a link?

There was something on the old basketball reference blogs. There wasn't data to back up the claim, thus my question. Not sure how to track that down, their content like that is horrible to search for.

[1987_Lakers]

Odom was great with the Lakers, when he was on his game LA always seemed to win, but he did have a tendency to be inconsistent at times and he didn't have Draymond's intensity & heart.

Draymond this year is probably better than any version of Odom, as evident to his sure All-Star lock, Odom was a very versatile player, but Draymond's versatility is just off the charts, he is more consistent, a better defender, better passer, & a better 3 point shooter.

[Ca$H]

Odom was great with the Lakers, when he was on his game LA always seemed to win, but he did have a tendency to be inconsistent at times and he didn't have Draymond's intensity & heart.

Draymond this year is probably better than any version of Odom, as evident to his sure All-Star lock, Odom was a very versatile player, but Draymond's versatility is just off the charts, he is more consistent, a better defender, better passer, & a better 3 point shooter.

I think peak Draygod will end up being closer to Pippen than Odom.

[houston]

green by far