Who had the best Basketball career. Michael Jordan or Kareem Abdul Jabbar

[kennethgriffin]

http://i63.tinypic.com/2ikw07l.jpg

Career history
1969–1975 Milwaukee Bucks
1975–1989 Los Angeles Lakers

Career highlights and awards
6

[stalkerforlife]

When you include college, it's basically 1a/1b.

[Straight_Ballin]

There are winners and there are losers.

MJ showed that once he was in the finals with a good enough supporting cast to get him there, that he ensured victory. No other player has been able to demonstrate such a level of perfection. It is for this reason that he will always be ranked higher than KAJ.

[kennethgriffin]

There are winners and there are losers.

MJ showed that once he was in the finals with a good enough supporting cast to get him there, that he ensured victory. No other player has been able to demonstrate such a level of perfection. It is for this reason that he will always be ranked higher than KAJ.

if kareems bucks and lakers played the teams MJ faced. he wins all 10 of his trips to the nba finals

[Straight_Ballin]

if kareems bucks and lakers played the teams MJ faced. he wins all 10 of his trips to the nba finals

If Jordan faced the teams Kareem faced, he still would be perfect in the finals. He already demonstrated that he doesn't know how to lose if his team is a finals contender that year. There is no argument against this fact.

[kennethgriffin]

If Jordan faced the teams Kareem faced, he still would be perfect in the finals. He already demonstrated that he doesn't know how to lose if his team is a finals contender that year. There is no argument against this fact.


http://forums.riftgame.com/attachments/mage-discussion/23226d1429728310t-mage-update-3-2-350x700px-ll-82bfff63_not-sure-dog.jpeg

[kennethgriffin]

jordan fans dont realise how close 3 of jordans 6 finals were


1 ended on a game winning kerr shot

1 ended on a game winning paxson shot

1 ended on a push off game winning jordan shot

50/50 circumstances and jordan is probably 3 for 6 in half of the parallel universes out there

[Straight_Ballin]

When your mindset is "I'm in the finals now, I can't lose" then the result is exactly that.

1 time is luck
2 times is luck
3 times could even be called luck

But when you show the world that for the 6 times you went to the finals that you ensured victory each and every time and that you were the undisputed best player each and every time....well that is the definition of GOAT pure and simple.

[kennethgriffin]

When your mindset is "I'm in the finals now, I can't lose" then the result is exactly that.

1 time is luck
2 times is luck
3 times could even be called luck

But when you show the world that for the 6 times you went to the finals that you ensured victory each and every time and that you were the undisputed best player each and every time....well that is the definition of GOAT pure and simple.


or it is luck because 3 of jordans finals ended on 2 shots by role players and 1 by an offensive foul no call

[3ball]

If Jordan faced the teams Kareem faced, he still would be perfect in the finals. He already demonstrated that he doesn't know how to lose if his team is a finals contender that year. There is no argument against this fact.



Also, if MJ had Kareem's supporting cast, he'd have 15 rings for every season of his career:


Magic destroys Pippen

Worthy destroys Grant

20 ppg Byron Scott destroys Paxson

DPOY Michael Cooper destroys BJ Armstrong

All-star AC Green, Rambis, Mycal Thompson destroys Cartwright


Kareem played on the most stacked team of all-time, other than Russell's Celtics.. MJ carried a MUCH bigger load than Kareem and had vastly superior stats - it isn't remotely close - and it's ridiculous when you adjust for pacee..

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

NBA u can argue for either but i go with KAJ

including HS and college? Its not close KAJ is GOAT

[3ball]

or it is luck because 3 of jordans finals ended on 2 shots by role players and 1 by an offensive foul no call



Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1980: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1982: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... Don't compare this guy to MJ.. It's offensive

[Proctor]

Tough choice but give me Kareem :applause:

[3ball]

Tough choice but give me Kareem :applause:
Said by a dumbass

Kareem had vastly superior supporting cast but no more rings... and worse stats and accolades... There is no argument for Kareem other than people's feelings.

[Proctor]

Said by a dumbass

Kareem had vastly superior supporting cast but no more rings... and worse stats and accolades... There is no argument for Kareem other than people's feelings.
I like Jordan but Kareem takes the cake.

http://warroomsports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/kareemjordan_display_image.jpg

[bdreason]

Kareem.

[3ball]

Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1980: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1982: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... Don't compare this guy to MJ.. It's offensive


If we're objectively comparing to MJ - these 4 titles don't compare to what MJ did.

/thread
.

[kennethgriffin]

/thread


the question wasnt "who has more talent or who was the better scorer in the finals"

its "who had the best basketball career"

everyone pretty much agrees it was kareem

[3ball]

the question wasnt "who has more talent or who was the better scorer in the finals"

its "who had the best basketball career"

everyone pretty much agrees it was kareem
None of you guys were there to see EITHER... That's how dumb you guys are.

If we're objectively comparing to MJ - those 4 titles don't compare to what MJ did.

There isn't an objective soul on the planet that would take Kareem's career over MJ's perfection and goat impact on and off the court - Kareem's career doesn't compare.. Forbes said MJ's economic impact was 10 billion or more or something like that..

[kennethgriffin]

and in 1980 kareem averaged 25/11 during the season, 32/12 during the playoffs, with 33ppg during the finals..

so i dunno where you got your 20/8

what else have you been wrong about? should i bother to check?

:coleman:

[kennethgriffin]

If we're objectively comparing to MJ - those 4 titles don't compare to what MJ did.


but youre pretty damn stupid and make shit up

so i dunno what to believe out of you anymore

[3ball]

the question wasnt "who has more talent or who was the better scorer in the finals"

its "who had the best basketball career"

everyone pretty much agrees it was kareem
You realize that without MJ, there's no Kobe, Wade, Lebron, you name it..

Without Kareem?... Well, let's face it - no one does the sky hook... he's penned some decent books tho.

You guys are all just taking the other side and being MJ haters.. That's okay.. It's part of being goat.

[3ball]

but youre pretty damn stupid and make shit up

so i dunno what to believe out of you anymore


Simple typo -


Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1982: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1985: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... Don't compare this guy to MJ.. It's offensive.. If we're objectively comparing to MJ - these 4 titles don't compare to what MJ did.

[kennethgriffin]

Simple typo -


Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1982: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1985: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... Don't compare this guy to MJ.. It's offensive.. If we're objectively comparing to MJ - these 4 titles don't compare to what MJ did.


winning teams had to play more of a team game during the 1980s

do the lakers win without kareem? nope

his defense/scoring wouldn't have been easly replaced



and are you seriously lol'ing kareem in 1985

who won finals mvp?

[kennethgriffin]

put kareem in the 90s where 1-2 guys can lead a team to a title

he'l average 30ppg too.. just as he did back when he was with the bucks

[Quickening]

I would say Kareem, far better longevity throughout his career. GOAT

[3ball]

and are you seriously lol'ing kareem in 1985


He only needed to average 21 ppg in those playoffs..

Do you know how ridiculous would be for MJ?

Do you know what MJ's lowest playoff ppg was?.... 29.3... his rookie year

MJ was on another level..

Meanwhile, Kareem won 4 rings by averaging less than 21 ppg... He actually stole a ring by averaging only 14 ppg!!

[kennethgriffin]

He only needed to average 21 ppg in those playoffs..

Do you know how ridiculous would be for MJ?

Do you know what MJ's lowest playoff ppg was?.... 29.3... his rookie year

MJ was on another level..

Meanwhile, Kareem won 4 rings by averaging less than 21 ppg... He actually stole a ring by averaging only 14 ppg!!


not everyone can stat pad in the weak ass ****in 90's with a team stacked mainly with defensive role players



jordan wouldnt be winning shit in the 80s unless he shared the spotlight aswell

where did his 35ppg get him back then

[Gileraracer]

Lebron stans unite and tell us how Kareem is GOAT, not MJ :lol

[colts19]

There are winners and there are losers.

MJ showed that once he was in the finals with a good enough supporting cast to get him there, that he ensured victory. No other player has been able to demonstrate such a level of perfection. It is for this reason that he will always be ranked higher than KAJ.

Bill Russell says HI. 11 enough said.

[gcvbcat]

is abdul so overrated because he is a *****m?

MJ all day, everyday.

[SHAQisGOAT]

NBA only? I got Jordan but not by much AT ALL.

Considering college and high-school? Kareem takes the cake.

[ralph_i_el]

If Jordan faced the teams Kareem faced, he still would be perfect in the finals. He already demonstrated that he doesn't know how to lose if his team is a finals contender that year. There is no argument against this fact.

:facepalm

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.


Kareem > MJ
Why? Because it rustles 3ball's jimmies.

Betting in college, better at 40. Kareem da GOAT

[feyki]

Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1980: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1982: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... Don't compare this guy to MJ.. It's offensive

Kareem 1980 playoffs stats ;

31 pts , 12 rib , 3 ast , 1 stl , 4 blk , 3.6 to , %61 TS . You fukkin liar .


Bill Russel has greatest nba career .

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1980: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

:coleman:

1971 Playoffs (won title/FMVP):
26.6 / 17.0 / 2.5 on .548 TS%

1980 Playoffs (won title/should've won FMVP, even Magic wanted to give him the trophy):
31.9 / 12.1 / 3.1 / 1.1 / 3.9 on .611 TS%
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/whew.png

1985 Finals (at 38 years old, won title/FMVP):
25.7 / 9.0 / 5.0 / 1.0 / 1.5 on .629 TS%
:bowdown:

A peak Kareem in the 1977 Playoffs, over the course of 11 games put up:
34.6 / 17.7 / 4.1 / 1.7 / 3.5 on .645 TS%
:eek:
Facing some elite competition in Bill Walton, Clifford Ray and Robert Parish... Playing for a team that wasn't all that AND with 2 out of his 3 best teammates injured... Losing against the eventual champs.

Throughout his career Jabbar went h2h against Moses, Wilt, Thurmond, Walton, Hakeem, Cowens, Reed, Parish, Unseld, McAdoo, Lanier, Sampson, Hayes, Ewing, Sikma... I'm sorry, Jordan ain't ****in with that (at the SG position).

You put a prime KAJ leading a team with the quality of the 90's Bulls, throughout the 90's... You think he ain't winning big also? :rolleyes: Gimme a break.

Plus, MJ ain't also ****ing with Kareem's longevity, and college/high-school career.

[Naero]

You can tenably argue Kareem as the GOAT, as I believe he's one of the only 2-3 players

[DMV2]

NBA career vs NBA career, it's hands down Jordan.
MVP, Ring, FMVP, scoring title in the same season 4 times.

Jordan only needed Pippen(barely Top 50 all-time), while KAJ needed Magic(the GOAT PG, top 5 all-time) and Robertson(Top 15 all-time, Mr. Triple Double).

Why should we care about high school and college career? They're amateur not actually "careers." Ability to sell billions of sneakers and owning an NBA team? now that's a career!

[SouBeachTalents]

NBA career vs NBA career, it's hands down Jordan.
MVP, Ring, FMVP, scoring title in the same season 4 times.

Jordan only needed Pippen(barely Top 50 all-time), while KAJ needed Magic(the GOAT PG, top 5 all-time) and Robertson(Top 15 all-time, Mr. Triple Double).

Why should we care about high school and college career? They're amateur not actually "careers." Ability to sell billions of sneakers and owning an NBA team? now that's a career!

Thank you. I never understood why people include college (and I guess high school now too :lol) in these discussions, it's irrelevant. I could care less what somebody was doing against players that didn't even make the NBA.

If we care so much about that, are you guys admitting LeBron > Kobe due to his superior high school career?

[andgar923]

Thank you. I never understood why people include college (and I guess high school now too :lol) in these discussions, it's irrelevant. I could care less what somebody was doing against players that didn't even make the NBA.

If we care so much about that, are you guys admitting LeBron > Kobe due to his superior high school career?

https://38.media.tumblr.com/4ef06e0fcb600cb41bde76d5f2dae96b/tumblr_nmjh42a27c1skhdx8o1_500.gif

[ShawkFactory]

Thank you. I never understood why people include college (and I guess high school now too :lol) in these discussions, it's irrelevant. I could care less what somebody was doing against players that didn't even make the NBA.

If we care so much about that, are you guys admitting LeBron > Kobe due to his superior high school career?
Uh oh. Troll trap.

[feyki]

NBA career vs NBA career, it's hands down Jordan.
MVP, Ring, FMVP, scoring title in the same season 4 times.

Jordan only needed Pippen(barely Top 50 all-time), while KAJ needed Magic(the GOAT PG, top 5 all-time) and Robertson(Top 15 all-time, Mr. Triple Double).

Why should we care about high school and college career? They're amateur not actually "careers." Ability to sell billions of sneakers and owning an NBA team? now that's a career!

Kareem's teammates at his prime ;

70 ,

Dandridge - 16 pts , 8.7 rib , 5.7 ast , %52.7 TS

Flynn R. - 13 pts , 5 ast , %42.5 TS

McGlocklin - 15 pts , %47.3 TS

Eliminated by Champions

71 ,

Oscar - 18 pts , 5 rib , 9 ast , %53.3 TS

Dandridge - 19 pts , 9.5 rib , 3.5 ast , %50.1 TS

McGlocklin - 15 pts , %57 TS

Champ..


72 ,

Dandridge - 21.5 pts , 9 rib , 2 ast , %52.9 TS

Lucius Allen - 18 pts , 3.5 rib , 3.8 ast , %51.9 TS

Oscar - 13 pts , 6 rib , 7.5 ast , %46.2 TS

72 Lakers is best team with 67 sixers in nba history.


73 was shame for Kareem's career , unfortunately .

74 ,

Dandridge - 19 pts , 7.5 rib , 3 ast , 1.4 stl , 0.6 blk , %51.9 TS

Oscar - 14 pts , 3.4 rib , 9.3 ast , 0.9 stl , 0.3 blk , %50.3 TS

One game far to the championship.

75 ,

Dandridge - 20 pts , 7 rib , 3 ast , 1.5 stl , 0.6 blk , %50.6 TS



76 ,

Gail - 19.5 pts , 5.5 ast , 1.5 stl , %49.5 TS

Lucius - 14.7 pts , 4.7 pts , %50.1 TS

They are 4th best team on west conference but rules make them out of the playoffs .

77 ,

Cazzie Russell - 16 pts , 5 rib , 2 ast , %48.6 TS

Earl Tatum - 13.5 pts , 5 rib , 2.5 ast , %51.9 TS

Chaney - 1.9 stl

Eliminated by champions .

78 ,

Dantley - 17 pts , 8 rib , 4 ast , %60 TS

Wilkes - 12 pts , 9 rib , 3 ast , %49 TS

Eliminated by Finalists

79 ,

Nixon - 15 pts , 12 ast , %49 TS

Wilkes - 18.5 pts , 8.5 rib , 2 ast , %51 TS

Dantley - 17.5 pts , 4 rib , 1.5 ast , %56 TS


Eliminated by champions .

80 ,

Magic,Wilkes,Nixon

Championship ..

[f0und]

jordan fans dont realise how close 3 of jordans 6 finals were


1 ended on a game winning kerr shot

1 ended on a game winning paxson shot

1 ended on a push off game winning jordan shot

50/50 circumstances and jordan is probably 3 for 6 in half of the parallel universes out there

none of them went past 6 games

[ShawkFactory]

none of them went past 6 games
:lol

He's acting as though all of those events occurred when they were not leading the series already.

[West-Side]

jordan fans dont realise how close 3 of jordans 6 finals were


1 ended on a game winning kerr shot

1 ended on a game winning paxson shot

1 ended on a push off game winning jordan shot

50/50 circumstances and jordan is probably 3 for 6 in half of the parallel universes out there

How do you figure?
That wasn't game 7.

Even if Chicago losses that game, they still have game 7 to win.

[Magic 32]

The problem with Kareem as the GOAT is always going to be 75-80 and his less than perfect home court record (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

[West-Side]

KAJ and it's quite easy.
If we're talking about their achievements in high school, college and the NBA.

It has to be Kareem.
Jordan has the edge in terms of NBA resume though.

This don't necessarily mean I think KAJ was the better player, let me make that clear.

But yeah KAJ had the best basketball career of all-time.
He achieved so much at every level of competition.

He was also arguably the most intelligent person in the NBA history.
Honestly, I highly respect Kareem's poetic views on life (not just basketball).

No wonder him and Bruce were such close friends.

[sdot_thadon]

Jabbar has a decent argument for outright goat as it is, actually probably the only argument against mike. But if you look at career, it's no question Kareem had the better career. His college and prep career are vastly superior. Its crazy when you realize this guy was great in 3 different decades, unreal. Just remember career is only one aspect of the goat debate though.

[colts19]

I know 3ball loves MJ, however when it comes to NBA careers, it's Bill Russell and its not even close. 11 Championships. I don't care what era it is. You can't say a guy who won 11 out of 13 isn't the greatest nba career of all time. 2 years when he didn't win the championship, and he was injured one of them. How many years did MJ not win the title. How many years did MJ have a losing record.

MJ may be the GOAT. But Russell had the greatest career and nobody will ever have a greater career.

[riseagainst]

strictly NBA, it's MJ and not really even close.

But if you include college it's a wash.

[Sarcastic]

How is this a question? Jordan is the GOAT both with the eye test, and with the best resume.

[Hey Yo]

If NCAA rules had allowed Freshman to play at the time, it's safe to say that Kareem would have won 4 straight National Titles while at UCLA.

KAJ > MJ

[Replay32]

Kareem.

[feyki]

How is this a question? Jordan is the GOAT both with the eye test, and with the best resume.

Goat , why? For been an advertising kid?

[Sarcastic]

Goat , why? For been an advertising kid?

Best stats, best peak, best career.

[feyki]

Best stats, best peak, best career.

Best Stats - Kareem

Best Peak - Wilt

Best Career - Bill

[kennethgriffin]

KAJ and it's quite easy.
If we're talking about their achievements in high school, college and the NBA.

It has to be Kareem.
Jordan has the edge in terms of NBA resume though.

This don't necessarily mean I think KAJ was the better player, let me make that clear.

But yeah KAJ had the best basketball career of all-time.
He achieved so much at every level of competition.

He was also arguably the most intelligent person in the NBA history.
Honestly, I highly respect Kareem's poetic views on life (not just basketball).

No wonder him and Bruce were such close friends.



its funny cause even with only NBA involved ( no HS or college ). Basketball reference Hall of fame monitor lists these 10 guys as having the best careers all time





1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
2. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
6. Tim Duncan 1.0000
7. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
8. John Havlicek* 1.0000
9. Oscar Robertson* 1.0000
10. Bob Cousy* 1.0000



kareem ahead of MJ regardless... the rankings stop adding to the percentile once a player reaches over 1.0000

but they still factor into overalls

[kennethgriffin]

How do you figure?
That wasn't game 7.

Even if Chicago losses that game, they still have game 7 to win.

in utah

[feyki]

its funny cause even with only NBA involved ( no HS or college ). Basketball reference Hall of fame monitor lists these 10 guys as having the best careers all time





1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
2. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
6. Tim Duncan 1.0000
7. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
8. John Havlicek* 1.0000
9. Oscar Robertson* 1.0000
10. Bob Cousy* 1.0000



kareem ahead of MJ regardless... the rankings stop adding to the percentile once a player reaches over 1.0000

but they still factor into overalls

Hondo > Bird , Cousy > Magic :oldlol: :oldlol:

this list is shit .

[kennethgriffin]

Hondo > Bird , Cousy > Magic :oldlol: :oldlol:

this list is shit .


bird and magic had short careers

its a career rankings list

hondo and cousy also won more titles... in all seriousness. both of them get knocked for playing with bill for no good reason. why should russell get all the credit and only them get knocked for playing in an inferior era



either list them up there with bill or knock all 3 of them out of the top 10

[Sarcastic]

Best Stats - Kareem

Best Peak - Wilt

Best Career - Bill

Kareem stats are based solely on longevity. Dude only led the league in scoring twice and rebounding once :lol

Jordan led the league in scoring every damn year of his prime, and even after it. He also destroys Kareem in advanced stats. Only Wilt is close, but Wilt has a large down period of his career post injury.

Russell does beat Jordan in rings, but had a much better team around him. He usually was the best player on those teams, but not always. Jordan always was best player on his team.

[kennethgriffin]

cousy

Honors
1947-48 NCAA AP All-America (3rd)
1948-49 NCAA AP All-America (2nd)
1949-50 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1951-52 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1952-53 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1953-54 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1954-55 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1955-56 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1956-57 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1957-58 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1958-59 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1959-60 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1960-61 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1961-62 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1962-63 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

Awards
1953-54 NBA All-Star Game MVP
1956-57 NBA All-Star Game MVP
1956-57 NBA MVP


All-Star Games
1951 NBA
1952 NBA
1953 NBA
1954 NBA
1955 NBA
1956 NBA
1957 NBA
1958 NBA
1959 NBA
1960 NBA
1961 NBA
1962 NBA
1963 NBA

Championships
(Minimum 1 playoff game)
1957 Boston Celtics (NBA)
1959 Boston Celtics (NBA)
1960 Boston Celtics (NBA)
1961 Boston Celtics (NBA)
1962 Boston Celtics (NBA)
1963 Boston Celtics (NBA)





bird

1977-78 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1978-79 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1981-82 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1981-82 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1982-83 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1986-87 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1987-88 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1989-90 NBA All-NBA (2nd)


1979-80 NBA Rookie of the Year
1981-82 NBA All-Star Game MVP
1983-84 NBA Finals MVP
1983-84 NBA MVP
1984-85 NBA MVP
1985-86 NBA Finals MVP
1985-86 NBA MVPAll-Star Games

1980 NBA
1981 NBA
1982 NBA
1983 NBA
1984 NBA
1985 NBA
1986 NBA
1987 NBA
1988 NBA
1990 NBA
1991 NBA
1992 NBA

Championships
(Minimum 1 playoff game)
1981 Boston Celtics (NBA)
1984 Boston Celtics (NBA)
1986 Boston Celtics (NBA)







ofcourse bird was the better talent


but better career = cousy

[jlip]

Kareem is the only player that has a legitmate case for GOAT at all 3 levels of organized b-ball...HS, College, and NBA.

[feyki]

Kareem stats are based solely on longevity. Dude only led the league in scoring twice and rebounding once :lol

Jordan led the league in scoring every damn year of his prime, and even after it. He also destroys Kareem in advanced stats. Only Wilt is close, but Wilt has a large down period of his career post injury.

Russell does beat Jordan in rings, but had a much better team around him. He usually was the best player on those teams, but not always. Jordan always was best player on his team.

Kareem has 35-18-5-4 with %60 TS 100 poss stats in his prime at tougher defensive era's playoffs. Jordan has 43-8-7-3 %57 TS 100 poss stats . Kareem has efficient scoring,ribaunds,defences ; Jordan has only dominate the ball on offence .

Peak Wilt(64-68) clearly better than peak Jordan at both ends .

Bill Russell has 11 championship against tougher competition .

Kennetthgriffin;

Get the out of here .


Catch24 ;

Yes , Jordan best at PER cause PER is ball hogger metric . And Jordan easily dominate the all ball hogger metrics .

[catch24]

Strictly the NBA? Jordan

Most efficient player in the playoffs (PER), best overall player in the playoffs, best overall player in the finals, and has the best combination of individual awards and championships.

Kareem is a close second, but I wouldn't argue with anyone having him over Jordan.

[97 bulls]

What about Jordans two Olympic Gold Medals to Kareems 0???? Its gotta be Jordan. How are these guys putting soooo much stock in College? Even over the pros.

[Sarcastic]

Kareem has 35-18-5-4 with %60 TS 100 poss stats in his prime at tougher defensive era's playoffs. Jordan has 43-8-7-3 %57 TS 100 poss stats . Kareem has efficient scoring,ribaunds,defences ; Jordan has only dominate the ball on offence .

Peak Wilt(64-68) clearly better than peak Jordan at both ends .

Bill Russell has 11 championship against tougher competition .

Kennetthgriffin;

Get the out of here .


Catch24 ;

Yes , Jordan best at PER cause PER is ball hogger metric . And Jordan easily dominate the all ball hogger metrics .

Besides PER Jordan also is career leader in WS/48, and VORP. He is also top 3 defensive wing player, whereas Kareem is not top 3 defensive center.

[West-Side]

What about Jordans two Olympic Gold Medals to Kareems 0???? Its gotta be Jordan. How are these guys putting soooo much stock in College? Even over the pros.

Oh please, winning a gold medal with the Dream Team is hardly an accomplishment. Might as well consider the amount of all-star wins he had too.

Jabbar was dominant at every level throughout his basketball career and due to his longevity has a more impressive resume, IMO.

Jordan was clearly the better player.

[97 bulls]

Oh please, winning a gold medal with the Dream Team is hardly an accomplishment. Might as well consider the amount of all-star wins he had too.

Jabbar was dominant at every level throughout his basketball career and due to his longevity has a more impressive resume, IMO.

Jordan was clearly the better player.
Jordan actually has two. He won in 84 as well.

I thought this was a discussion based on basketball career. How difficult was it for Jabaar to win at UCLA? Didn't he join a team thag had won like 3 straight NCAA championships???? I mean, how many great colleges did he pass to go to UCLA. Literally on the other side of the Country. Seeing as how he is from New York

[kennethgriffin]

What about Jordans two Olympic Gold Medals to Kareems 0???? Its gotta be Jordan. How are these guys putting soooo much stock in College? Even over the pros.

da **** is a gold medal worth if it came in a cake walk where jordan didnt even have to participate


the only reason i ever even mention 1 of kobes gold medals is because he single handedly took over a close game in the 4th quarter of the championship clinching game


i'm sure jordans gold medal runs were already in hand before he even showed up

[97 bulls]

da **** is a gold medal worth if it came in a cake walk where jordan didnt even have to participate
What are you talking about???

[kennethgriffin]

What are you talking about???


i'm saying jordan winning gold is like adam morrison winning an nba title


neither guy was needed

[97 bulls]

da **** is a gold medal worth if it came in a cake walk where jordan didnt even have to participate


the only reason i ever even mention 1 of kobes gold medals is because he single handedly took over a close game in the 4th quarter of the championship clinching game


i'm sure jordans gold medal runs were already in hand before he even showed up
Kobes team had no business being in that position in the first place

[97 bulls]

i'm saying jordan winning gold is like adam morrison winning an nba title


neither guy was needed
Was Jabaar needed for the titles he won in UCLA? Seeing as how they were champions when he got there?

[West-Side]

Jordan actually has two. He won in 84 as well.

I thought this was a discussion based on basketball career. How difficult was it for Jabaar to win at UCLA? Didn't he join a team thag had won like 3 straight NCAA championships???? I mean, how many great colleges did he pass to go to UCLA. Literally on the other side of the Country. Seeing as how he is from New York

You're comparing KAJ's NCAA career to Jordan's 2 Gold Medals? :oldlol:
US would have dominated their competition without Jordan; I seriously doubt UCLA wins three straight championships without Jabbar.

Look, Jordan is the GOAT; but I'm so sick and tired of his fans think the dude was the best at everything.

KAJ's basketball career is simply better.
Everyone who is 30+ years of age knows that.

Next.

[kentatm]

If Jordan faced the teams Kareem faced, he still would be perfect in the finals. He already demonstrated that he doesn't know how to lose if his team is a finals contender that year. There is no argument against this fact.


:roll:

I'm betting you aren't even old enough to have watched MJ's first three titles let alone any of Kareem's.

[97 bulls]

Its funny how you guys with agendas love to move to goal post. The topic is abojt baseketball careers. Why some of you will include college and even high school (high school. Really?) But don't want to factor in the Olympics. Which is more competitive, is just a clear case of bias. Jordan is the greatest ever and has the greatest career ever.

[West-Side]

Was Jabaar needed for the titles he won in UCLA? Seeing as how they were champions when he got there?

:facepalm

[QUOTE]From an early age, Lew Alcindor began his record-breaking basketball accomplishments. In high school, where he started as a 6-foot, 8-inch player,[15][16] he led coach Jack Donahue's Power Memorial team to three straight New York City Catholic championships, a 71-game winning streak, and a 79

[West-Side]

Its funny how you guys with agendas love to move to goal post. The topic is abojt baseketball careers. Why some of you will include college and even high school (high school. Really?) But don't want to factor in the Olympics. Which is more competitive, is just a clear case of bias. Jordan is the greatest ever and has the greatest career ever.

Do you have down syndrome?
Did you really just say that during the era of the original Dream Team, basketball on the national scale was more competitive than NCAA?

Dude, USA was beating teams by like 40+ points every game.
WTF.

[kennethgriffin]

Was Jabaar needed for the titles he won in UCLA? Seeing as how they were champions when he got there?


lots of college teams are champions and flop the next year


because college isnt the last step. theres something that comes after that ya know

:lol

[97 bulls]

You're comparing KAJ's NCAA career to Jordan's 2 Gold Medals? :oldlol:
US would have dominated their ccollege tition without Jordan; I seriously doubt UCLA wins three straight championships without Jabbar.

Look, Jordan is the GOAT; but I'm so sick and tired of his fans think the dude was the best at everything.

KAJ's basketball career is simply better.
Everyone who is 30+ years of age knows that.

Next.
They were winning championships without Jabaar. Thats why Jabaar chose to go there. Whh rlse would he choose to go to a college 3000 miles away.

[West-Side]

They were winning championships without Jabaar. Thats why Jabaar chose to go there. Whh rlse would he choose to go to a college 3000 miles away.

Read what I wrote. :rolleyes:

[kennethgriffin]

They were winning championships without Jabaar. Thats why Jabaar chose to go there. Whh rlse would he choose to go to a college 3000 miles away.

ya know


for the life of me... i can't figure out why brent barry didnt step in and immediately start winning titles with the 1999 chicago bulls

[Sarcastic]

Wait why wouldn't UCLA win without Jabbar, considering that they won 4 more titles after he left.

[kennethgriffin]

Wait why wouldn't UCLA win without Jabbar, considering that they won 4 more titles after he left.


i guess wayne gretzky wasnt the best.. the oilers won a stanley cup the 2nd season after he left for los angeles

[West-Side]

Wait why wouldn't UCLA win without Jabbar, considering that they won 4 more titles after he left.

Sure, but they didn't win in 66' before he came there as a freshman.
His contribution to those championships were FAR greater than Jordan's contribution to the Dream Teams.

Plus, he lost only TWO games all 3 years. One of which he was injured, the other game the team kept it away from UCLA because there was no shot clock.

Do you guys really fail to see how it's far more impressive than winning two medals on a stacked USA team?

[jlip]

Since the Olympics were brought up, I'm wondering why the 1960 and 1992 basketball teams were inducted into the Hall of Fame but not the Bill Russell led 1956 squad.

The only thing I can think of is "star power" and "name recognition." The 1960 team featured future NBA hall of famers Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas, and Walt Bellamy. We obviously know that the 1992 Dream Team was basically made up of popular hall of famers.

The problem is that neither of those teams was nearly as dominating as the 1956team led by Bill Russell. That team only had 2 future NBA players, Bill Russell and arguably the most underserving hall of famer ever, K.C. Jones. The 1956 squad defeated their opponents by an Olympic record 53.5ppg. (The 1960 squad won by an average of "only" 42.4ppg, and the Dream team won by an average of "only" 43.8ppg.) Russell led the Olympic team in scoring, and the defense anchored by him held their opponents to 13.9 points below their averages.

Winning 2 consecutive NCAA titles while winning 55 consecutive games in college gives him a case for the best basketball career post high school.

[West-Side]

i guess wayne gretzky wasnt the best.. the oilers won a stanley cup the 2nd season after he left for los angeles

Jordan fan base thinks he's better than everyone, at everything.
Most people consider KAJ's basketball career to be the most impressive.

Jordan played far less, get the sand out of your ****** guys.

[Sarcastic]

Sure, but they didn't win in 66' before he came there as a freshman.
His contribution to those championships were FAR greater than Jordan's contribution to the Dream Teams.

Plus, he lost only TWO games all 3 years. One of which he was injured, the other game the team kept it away from UCLA because there was no shot clock.

Do you guys really fail to see how it's far more impressive than winning two medals on a stacked USA team?

The UCLA run is more of a testament to John Wooden than to Lew Alcindor. And I am sure Lew would say that as well, considering how he praises him.

[97 bulls]

Sure but they didn't win in 66' before he came there as a freshman.
His contribution to those championships were FAR greater than Jordan's contribution to the Dream Teams.

Plus, he lost only TWO games all 3 years. One of which he was injured, the other game the team kept it away from UCLA because there was no shot clock.

Do you guys really fail to see how it's far more impressive than winning two medals on a stacked USA team?
The Bruins won two championships before Jabaar. They won the year he was a freshman. So how impressive or even relevant was Jabaar? They were winning before he got there

[97 bulls]

ya know


for the life of me... i can't figure out why brent barry didnt step in and immediately start winning titles with the 1999 chicago bulls
If you can't figure that out then you shouldn't be a basketball fan

[ShaqTwizzle]

Kareem had a nasty, nasty Peak in 77.
I don't think you can say that Jordan's Peak was "that much" better even if it was better.

One other thing one could take into account is Kareem's enormous longevity edge.

Should one disregard MJ's 86 & 95 seasons where he missed all but 15-20 games he ends up only having 11 quality years.

Kareem has how many quality years? 16? 17? 18?
So that is a pretty sizable edge for him.

Pretty sure one can reasonably argue that Kareem > MJ in terms of career value.

____________________

Then again Kareem did get pretty lucky playing with Peak Magic & stacked teams in "soso" conferences towards the end of his career.
Pretty much the most perfect situation he could have hoped for.
I think he once said he would have retired much earlier if not for Magic and those ideal circumstances.

[97 bulls]

Wait why wouldn't UCLA win without Jabbar, considering that they won 4 more titles after he left.
They won three before he got there.

[houston]

kareem

[West-Side]

They won three before he got there.

No they didn't. :facepalm

[QUOTE]
[B]1966 Texas Western (UTEP) Don Haskins 72

[97 bulls]

Jordan fan base thinks he's better than everyone, at everything.
Most people consider KAJ's basketball career to be the most impressive.

Jordan played far less, get the sand out of your ****** guys.
No. Lakers fans do. Again your entitled to your opinion. But how you gonna bring up high school and accomplishments as an assistant coach then question the.Olympic?? What kind of ignorant shit is that????

[feyki]

Besides PER Jordan also is career leader in WS/48, and VORP. He is also top 3 defensive wing player, whereas Kareem is not top 3 defensive center.

Vorp and Bpm are terrible stats . I don't want to talk about bpm or vorp .

Kareem ws48 until 34 years old ;

0.275

Jordan ws48 until 34 years old ;

0.274

And Kareem has also far bad supporting cast than Jordan at their primes . That is perfect fit for overrating individual level at win shares .

[West-Side]

The Bruins won two championships before Jabaar. They won the year he was a freshman. So how impressive or even relevant was Jabaar? They were winning before he got there

Jesus Christ, go back to watching Jordan's tapes.
It's literally the only player you clearly know anything about.

Kareem broke NCAA record in his first ever game as a Freshamn.
He scored 56 points.

He won 2 player of the year awards in 3 years; was All-American all 3 years, Player of the Tournament etc.

But yeah he was completely irrelevant.

[97 bulls]

No they didn't. :facepalm



Kareem started his college career in 67'.
But Jabaar was a freshman and wasn't allowed to play on the first team that started the streak right?

[ShaqTwizzle]

Vorp and Bpm are terrible stats . I don't want to talk about bpm or vorp .


For once we agree.
VORP & BPM are garbage stats. Not worth taking seriously.
Wayyyy too many wonky results with them.

I am not a big fan of wshares either.

[West-Side]

But Jabaar was a freshman and wasn't allowed to play on the first team that started the streak right?


In his first college game, Lew set a UCLA single game record with 56 points.

How was he not allowed to play with the first team, WHEN HE WAS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE DAMN TEAM.

He won player of the year in 67'.

[97 bulls]

Jesus Christ, go back to watching Jordan's tapes.
It's literally the only player you clearly know anything about.

Kareem broke NCAA record in his first ever game as a Freshamn.
He scored 56 points.

He won 2 player of the year awards in 3 years; was All-American all 3 years, Player of the Tournament etc.

But yeah he was completely irrelevant.
Hold on. You're moving the goal post again. Your.argument against including Jordans Olympic accomplishments is that the team would've won without him. Well the Bruins were winning without Kareem. And I honestly feel the Lakers won in 88 in spite of Jabaar. Talk about throwing stones out of a glass house.

[feyki]

But Jabaar was a freshman and wasn't allowed to play on the first team that started the streak right?

Yep , freshman ;

http://www.thatericalper.com/2014/03/15/that-time-the-ncaa-banned-dunking-thanks-to-kareem-abdul-jabbar/

[feyki]

For once we agree.
VORP & BPM are garbage stats. Not worth taking seriously.
Wayyyy too many wonky results with them.

I am not a big fan of wshares either.

:rockon: Win shares just not bad , we need advanced metrics :oldlol: .

[West-Side]

Hold on. You're moving the goal post again. Your.argument against including Jordans Olympic accomplishments is that the team would've won without him. Well the Bruins were winning without Kareem. And I honestly feel the Lakers won in 88 in spite of Jabaar. Talk about throwing stones out of a glass house.

KAJ was a FAR more important player to the Bruins than Jordan was to the Dream Team. This isn't even comparable.

Can you be any more desperate?

[dhsilv]

They are much.better metrics than we did greats as they favor greatness over just being there. That said they weren't calculated for the start of Kareem's career and he almost certainly would be the leader in.vorp if we had his full career.

[97 bulls]

KAJ was a FAR more important player to the Bruins than Jordan wao the Dream Team. This isn't even comparable.

Can you be any more desperate?
Im not saying Jabaar wasn't more important. I said that he joined a team that was already winning. They were established. One year removed from back to back championships.

You're not gonna sit here and trivialize Jordan's.role on the Olympic teams he played on then ignore Kareem s situation.

Again this is a question of whos the most accomplished in BASKETBALL. Winning an Olympic gold medal is prestigious and an accomplishment in basketball. Even more pretigious and more competitive than College at the time. Im talking about 84. Not 92

[West-Side]

Im not saying Jabaar wasn't more important. I said that he joined a team that was already winning. They were established. One year removed from back to back championships.

You're not gonna sit here and trivialize Jordan's.role on the Olympic teams he played on then ignore Kareem s situation.

Again this is a question of whos the most accomplished in BASKETBALL. Winning an Olympic gold medal is prestigious and an accomplishment in basketball. Even more pretigious and more competitive than College at the time. Im talking about 84. Not 92

Okay. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

A question for West-side....

All things being equal. Without context. Who had the better basketball career???

[97 bulls]

Okay. :oldlol:
You have no response cuz your agenda got exposed. Do you relize that the U.S. didn't even get a medal in the Olympics before 84???

[West-Side]

A question for West-side....

All things being equal. Without context. Who had the better basketball career???

Kareem Vs. Jordan

19 - 14
All-Stars

6 - 6
MVPs

2 - 1
NCAA Player of The Year

2 - 6
Finals MVP

3 - 2
AP All-American

10 - 10
All-NBA 1st Team

10 - 10
Top 5 in MVP voting

6 - 6
NBA titles

38,387 - 32,292
Points

17,440 - 6,672
Rebounds

5,660 - 5,633
Assists

1,160 - 2,514
Steals

3,189 - 893
Blocks

.559 - .497
FG%

.592 - .569
TS%

0 - 2
Gold Medals

In terms of basketball resume; if we consider that KAJ was the more dominant player [and achieved more] at both high school and college. It has to be him.

Again, Jordan is the better basketball player but KAJ's resume is clearly superior.

[West-Side]

You have no response cuz your agenda got exposed. Do you relize that the U.S. didn't even get a medal in the Olympics before 84???


USA 97, China 49
USA 89, Canada 68
USA 104, Uruguay 68
USA 120, France 62
USA 101, Spain 68
USA 78, Federal Republic of Germany 67
USA 78, Canada 59
USA 96, Spain 65

Margin of victory = 32.13 points.
Not one single digit win.

Yeah, it was really more competitive than NCAA.

[97 bulls]

Kareem Vs. Jordan

19 - 14
All-Stars

6 - 6
MVPs

2 - 1
NCAA Player of The Year

2 - 6
Finals MVP

3 - 2
AP All-American

10 - 10
All-NBA 1st Team

10 - 10
Top 5 in MVP voting

6 - 6
NBA titles

38,387 - 32,292
Points

17,440 - 6,672
Rebounds

5,660 - 5,633
Assists

1,160 - 2,514
Steals

3,189 - 893
Blocks

.559 - .497
FG%

.592 - .569
TS%

0 - 2
Gold Medals

In terms of basketball resume; if we consider that KAJ was the more dominant player [and achieved more] at both high school and college. It has to be him.

Again, Jordan is the better basketball player but KAJ's resume is clearly superior.
Whay about DPOY awards? All Defense teams? Win%? 3pt%? FT? Playoffs accomplishments? Per game stats? Allstar MVPs. Come on bro.

[97 bulls]

Margin of victory = 32.13 points.
Not one single digit win.

Yeah, it was really more competitive than NCAA.
I was referring to 84.

[jlip]

I was referring to 84.

Those were the 1984 Olympic scores.

[Papaya Petee]

da **** is a gold medal worth if it came in a cake walk where jordan didnt even have to participate


the only reason i ever even mention 1 of kobes gold medals is because he single handedly took over a close game in the 4th quarter of the championship clinching game


i'm sure jordans gold medal runs were already in hand before he even showed up
Kobe wasnt even the best player on that team. Wade easily was. And Wade scored 27 versus Spain in the finals Kobe had 20 and Wade had a dagger 3 as well.

Da fuq is this

[FKAri]

Those were the 1984 Olympic scores.

http://www.somegif.com/gifs/1363863597925139587.GIF

[riseagainst]

http://www.somegif.com/gifs/1363863597925139587.GIF


:lol

[97 bulls]

Those were the 1984 Olympic scores.
You're missing the point. It was not a givendominatedg the Americans would win the gold anymore. Sure 84 dominated. They were a great team. Heres the winners going back to 72

72 Russia
76 US
80 Yugoslavia (US) boycott
84 US (Russia boycotted)
88 Russia

Then the dreamteam.

The 84 team dominated. But so did UCLA. They went 30-0. And won 3 straight Championships.

How is Kareems accomplishment harder?

[3ball]

some misinformation itt

[3ball]

You're missing the point. It was not a givendominatedg the Americans would win the gold anymore. Sure 84 dominated. They were a great team. Heres the winners going back to 72

72 Russia
76 US
80 Yugoslavia (US) boycott
84 US (Russia boycotted)
88 Russia

Then the dreamteam.

The 84 team dominated. But so did UCLA. They went 30-0. And won 3 straight Championships.

How is Kareems accomplishment harder?
good post

[3ball]

Not only does MJ have superior accolades and stats, but his IMPACT dwarfs Kareem's..



"MJ is the standard by which basketball excellence is measured"

- David Stern


MJ changed the game - his on-court and off-court impact is unmatched.. Half of the world's basketball players wear his brand and virtually ALL basketball players past and present copy his game.

[HighFlyer23]

Kareem

[FKAri]

ey yo 3ball I think you missed a spot. Back on your knees you go.

[kennethgriffin]

after skimming through the thread i'm pretty sure the vote right now is


Kareem - 19
Jordan - 4



R.I.P 3ball

[West-Side]

You take their best 12 seasons in the NBA, and I give it to Michael despite KAJ's more impressive college and high school career.

I don't understand why Bulls 97 is so offended by this, it's common sense.
Kareem has the most complete basketball resume in history.

[97 bulls]

You take their best 12 seasons in the NBA, and I give it to Michael despite KAJ's more impressive college and high school career.

I don't understand why Bulls 97 is so offended by this, it's common sense.
Kareem has the most complete basketball resume in history.
How can you include high school and argue against the Olympics???? That's my point. Are they not playing Basketball in the Olympics???

[97 bulls]

after skimming through the thread i'm pretty sure the vote right now is


Kareem - 19
Jordan - 4



R.I.P 3ball

You can't count your vote 18 times.

[kennethgriffin]

You can't count your vote 18 times.


the funny thing is i havent even voted yet

[jlip]

Not only does MJ have superior accolades and stats, but his IMPACT dwarfs Kareem's..



"MJ is the standard by which basketball excellence is measured"

- David Stern


MJ changed the game - his on-court and off-court impact is unmatched.. Half of the world's basketball players wear his brand and virtually ALL basketball players past and present copy his game.

:facepalm

[97 bulls]

the funny thing is i havent even voted yet
Thats not funny.

[97 bulls]

How can you include high school and argue against the Olympics???? That's my point. Are they not playing Basketball in the Olympics???
Can you answer this question West-Side

[3ball]

:facepalm
all players past and present have copied MJ

but obviously, I'm talking about all players that came along since MJ entered the league - only an autistic person would take that sentence literally and think I meant Jerry West and players that came along BEFORE Jordan.

[West-Side]

Can you answer this question West-Side

Dude, no one considers a gold medal for team USA as prestigious as a State Championship in High School or an NCAA title.

If you don't believe me, create a thread and ask people what's more impressive to win.

[sdot_thadon]

all players past and present have copied MJ

but obviously, I'm talking about all players that came along since MJ entered the league - only an autistic person would take that sentence literally and think I meant Jerry West and players that came along BEFORE Jordan.
Never can tell with you bro. I'm disappointed, I thought I'd get to see you explain how his navigation efficiency allowed him to move backwards in time.

[97 bulls]

Dude, no one considers a gold medal for team USA asOscar prestigious as a State Championship in High School or an NCAA title.

If you don't believe me, create a thread and ask people what's more impressive to win.
Lol. A high school championship is more prestigious than winning an Olympic gold medal???? Unbelievable.

[kennethgriffin]

all players past and present have copied MJ

but obviously, I'm talking about all players that came along since MJ entered the league - only an autistic person would take that sentence literally and think I meant Jerry West and players that came along BEFORE Jordan.


how the hell did people copy jordan before jordan



all of jordans moves came from elgin baylor, dr j and many more

even wilt chamberlain had the fade away down in the 60s

[3ball]

how the hell did people copy jordan before jordan


Not only does MJ have superior accolades and stats, but his IMPACT dwarfs Kareem's..



"MJ is the standard by which basketball excellence is measured"

- David Stern


MJ changed the game - his on-court and off-court impact is unmatched.. Half of the world's basketball players wear his brand and virtually ALL basketball players since he entered the league copy his game.

[West-Side]

Lol. A high school championship is more prestigious than winning an Olympic gold medal???? Unbelievable.

For a USA basketball team from 1980 to now, hell yes it is.
Who the **** expected us to lose during that era?

God, you try so hard to prop Jordan. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

For a USA basketball team 1980 to now, hell yes it is.
Who the **** expected us to lose during that era?

God, you try so hard to prop Jordan. :facepalm
Dude. The US lost. They lost in 88. Again. You're moving the goal. The year that UCLA didn't win? They entered the season ranked number 1. Why is this any different from the Olympics?

[feyki]

Dude. The US lost. They lost in 88. Again. You're moving the goal. The year that UCLA didn't win? They entered the season ranked number 1. Why is this any different from the Olympics?

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/04/08/sports/federation-rule-change-opens-olympics-to-nba-players.html


This information for rules .

http://www.blooddirtandangels.com/index.php/2012/07/14/was-the-1960-u-s-olympic-baskball-team-better-than-the-1992-dream-team-no-but/

And this for you understand to the level of olympics . College players averaged margin by 42.4 against tournament teams . And this one from 1988 ;
http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/years/1988

College players averaged margin by 27.4 . They were lost but They were college players . İf Jordan wasn't played at 92 , nothing change for usa .

Kareem was push the limits and banned dunk from 67(After Kareem's first year) to 76 .

[kennethgriffin]

Dude. The US lost. They lost in 88. Again. You're moving the goal. The year that UCLA didn't win? They entered the season ranked number 1. Why is this any different from the Olympics?


the US didnt have NBA players till 1992

:lol

[97 bulls]

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/04/08/sports/federation-rule-change-opens-olympics-to-nba-players.html


This information for rules .

http://www.blooddirtandangels.com/index.php/2012/07/14/was-the-1960-u-s-olympic-baskball-team-better-than-the-1992-dream-team-no-but/

And this for you understand to the level of olympics . College players averaged margin by 42.4 against tournament teams . And this one from 1988 ;
http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/years/1988

College players averaged margin by 27.4 . They were lost but They were college players . İf Joguyrdan wasn't played at 92 , nothing change for usa .

Kareem was push the limits and banned dunk from 67(After Kareem's first year) to 76 .
According to West-Side, it was a given that the U.S. would win the Gold in the Olympics. If this is the case, why did they lose in 88?

Even more. To say that winning a high school championship is more prestigious than winning an Olympic gold medal is just utterly preposterous. At this stage, only amateurs could compete in the Olympics, but these amateurs were always the best players the college game had to offer. And sometimes (like in 88) thats still wasnt enough.

Now. If you wanna say Jordan's 84 Olympic team was supoosed to win because he played on the best tesm, then how can Jabaars UCLA team be any different? They were considered the best team as well even prior to Jabaar. Even the year they didn't win the NCAA championship, they were the preseason favorite. Like Jordan olympic team in 88. How is one scenario different from the other?????

[feyki]

According to West-Side, it was a given that the U.S. would win the Gold in the Olympics. If this is the case, why did they lose in 88?

Even more. To say that winning a high school championship is more prestigious than winning an Olympic gold medal is just utterly preposterous. At this stage, only amateurs could compete in the Olympics, but these amateurs were always the best players the college game had to offer. And sometimes (like in 88) thats still wasnt enough.

Now. If you wanna say Jordan's 84 Olympic team was supoosed to win because he played on the best tesm, then how can Jabaars UCLA team be any different? They were considered the best team as well even prior to Jabaar. Even the year they didn't win the NCAA championship, they were the preseason favorite. Like Jordan olympic team in 88. How is one scenario different from the other?????

Cause college basketball far more important than olympics for US basketball . Do you know college basketball value at US basketball ( historic and present) ?

[G0ATbe]

Kareem. I honestly never understood why posters act like it's common sense Jordan is GOAT. He has absolutely NO argument over the likes of Kobe, Kareem etc.

[Asukal]

MJ 6/6, 6 FMVPs>>>>>> KAJ 6/9, 2 FMVPS :hammerhead:

Most of KAJ's success came when he played with Magic, another GOAT candidate. MJ's success came when he played with Pippen but he was nothing more than a sidekick. :whatever:

[Wade's Rings]

MJ 6/6, 6 FMVPs>>>>>> KAJ 6/9, 2 FMVPS :hammerhead:

Most of KAJ's success came when he played with Magic, another GOAT candidate. MJ's success came when he played with Pippen but he was nothing more than a sidekick. :whatever:

Kareem is 6/10 and he should've been the 1980 Finals MVP.

Jordan is easily the GOAT IMO.

[kennethgriffin]

Kareem is 6/10 and he should've been the 1980 Finals MVP.

Jordan is easily the GOAT IMO.


the type of teams kareem lost to mopped the floor with jordans face


literally

and kareem also beat those same teams to make up for it

[dhsilv]

Kareem easily had a better career. The length and success is plain as day.

MJ was however a better player.

Even guys like Duncan have had or will have better careers. MJ's career is great by all means, but it isn't untouchable. Lebron may very well pass him as well in career.

Odds are Jordan will remain the best ever.

[Wade's Rings]

the type of teams kareem lost to mopped the floor with jordans face


literally

and kareem also beat those same teams to make up for it

ok


Kareem easily had a better career. The length and success is plain as day.

MJ was however a better player.

Even guys like Duncan have had or will have better careers. MJ's career is great by all means, but it isn't untouchable. Lebron may very well pass him as well in career.

Odds are Jordan will remain the best ever.

How did Kareem easily have a better Career?

[dhsilv]

How did Kareem easily have a better Career?

Awards.
Wins.
MJ has an NBA title on him, kareem what 2 NCAA titles? We could call it a wash if you want.
Points scored
Heck Kareem's block total is missing a few years and he's still top 10.
Winshare if you want to go advanced.
Allstar selections (not that meaningful but we're just piling on right?)
More minutes played
more games played

What did Jordan do in his career that sets him apart from Kareem?

[97 bulls]

Cause college basketball far more important than olympics for US basketball . Do you know college basketball value at US basketball ( historic and present) ?
That's not what West-Side said. He said HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS were a more prestigious award than winning an Olympic Gold Medal. Do you agree with this sentiment?

I could go either way on Olympics vs College. But High School?

[SouBeachTalents]

Comparing Jordan/Kareem's ring count is a joke. Jordan was not only the best player on his team, he was the best player in the league when he was winning titles. Kareem was legit 3rd option in '87 and averaged 14 ppg in '88. People discredit Kobe for '01 & '02 yet Kareem gets full credit for those rings? Give me a ****ing break

[97 bulls]

Awards.
Wins.
MJ has an NBA title on him, kareem what 2 NCAA titles? We could call it a wash if you want.
Points scored
Heck Kareem's block total is missing a few years and he's still top 10.
Winshare if you want to go advanced.
Allstar selections (not that meaningful but we're just piling on right?)
More minutes played
more games played

What did Jordan do in his career that sets him apart from Kareem?
The only thing Jabaar has on Jordanis longevity. The fact is, it took Jabaar longer to accomplish less than what Jordan did.

[feyki]

That's not what West-Side said. He said HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS were a more prestigious award than winning an Olympic Gold Medal. Do you agree with this sentiment?

Prestige is more global sense . Olympic gold medal has more prestigious for sure . But i look only basketball degree . And college basketball more important for me .

[97 bulls]

Comparing Jordan/Kareem's ring count is a joke. Jordan was not only the best player on his team, he was the best player in the league when he was winning titles. Kareem was legit 3rd option in '87 and averaged 14 ppg in '88. People discredit Kobe for '01 & '02 yet Kareem gets full credit for those rings? Give me a ****ing break
Its always a double standard.

[k0kakw0rld]

KAJ > Jordan

[Wade's Rings]

Awards.
Wins.
MJ has an NBA title on him, kareem what 2 NCAA titles? We could call it a wash if you want.
Points scored
Heck Kareem's block total is missing a few years and he's still top 10.
Winshare if you want to go advanced.
Allstar selections (not that meaningful but we're just piling on right?)
More minutes played
more games played

What did Jordan do in his career that sets him apart from Kareem?

Why is College in this?

Jordan is the GOAT Playoff & Finals Performer.
More Finals MVPs
PER, OBPM, BPM, W/S per 48

[Asukal]

Kareem couldn't win rings in the weak 70's while being the best player on the planet. Sure he won in 71 when he had Oscar in his team. He had pathetic competition in the mid to late 70's and still couldn't win. The truth is despite being the best player on the planet, Kareem wasn't a leader, he needed guys like Magic and Oscar to run the team for him. KAJ is being given too much credit for his success, heck he didn't play game 6 of the 1980 finals and his team still won. :whatever:

[97 bulls]

Prestige is more global sense . Olympic gold medal has more prestigious for sure . But i look only basketball degree . Anschool ollege basketball more impremotelytant for me .
College is arguably better. But evel still. In the US. Before the dream team, we used the best college athletes.

Regardless. The point of this thread is from a basketball perspective. Who had the better career. I don't see how anyone can say high school and the Olympics are even remotely similar. Or that for the sake of argument eliminate the Olympic but include high school

[gcvbcat]

Jordan hate is strong in this thread.

Jordan's career will never be matched.

[dhsilv]

The only thing Jabaar has on Jordanis longevity. The fact is, it took Jabaar longer to accomplish less than what Jordan did.

What are you defining as an accomplishment that MJ has over Kareem? 1 ring in the nba? That's really the only meaningful accomplishment he has, unless you think silly things like scoring titles matter.

[dhsilv]

Why is College in this?

Jordan is the GOAT Playoff & Finals Performer.
More Finals MVPs
PER, OBPM, BPM, W/S per 48

The question was not who had the best nba career, but basketball career and college was clearly mentioned.

MJ had a much shorter career and as a result he did not have years of lower production as he aged.

Kareem has a higher WS and if we had VORP data from his early career he most certainly would be ahead of VORP. The WS and PER numbers are very similar during their primes as well.

The topic of being better as a performer goes to MJ being the better player, which he was. He was clearly a better basketball player. He did not have as successful a career due to him making choices such as leaving basketball to play baseball, retiring early, etc. Jordan chose to have have the better career, I doubt he cared if he had 20 all star nods to pass Kareem. I doubt he felt he needed to pass kareem's 36,000 points. He certainly could have broken it if he'd set his mind to it early in his career.

[97 bulls]

What question we you defining as an accomplishment that MJ has over Kareem? 1 ring in the nba? That's really the only meaningful accomplishment he has, unless you think silly things like scoring titles matter.
I hate to answer a question with a question, but what does Jabaar have over Jordan???

[dhsilv]

I hate to answer a question with a question, but what does Jabaar have over Jordan???

I've posted this.

Awards
Wins
Most major stat categories

You're certainly right this was the result of playing longer, but when you're talking about a career playing longer is a HUGE deal. Again nobody that I've seen is debating that MJ is better at basketball than Kareem.

[97 bulls]

I've posted this.

Awards
Wins
Most major stat categories

You're certainly right this was the result of playing longer, but when you're talking about a career playing longer is a HUGE deal. Again nobody that I've seen is debating that MJ is better at basketball than Kareem.
And my response centered around all defense teams, dpoy awards, and.allstar game MVPs. And you never responded.

[SouBeachTalents]

And my response centered around all defense teams, dpoy awards, and.allstar game MVPs. And you never responded.

To be fair, DPOY didn't exist during Kareem's prime, he probably would have won 1-2 had they been awarded throughout his career

[SHAQisGOAT]

To be fair, DPOY didn't exist during Kareem's prime, he probably would have won 1-2 had they been awarded throughout his career

Definitely

[ralph_i_el]

All that really matters is that Kobe isn't close to either of them

[West-Side]

That's not what West-Side said. He said HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS were a more prestigious award than winning an Olympic Gold Medal. Do you agree with this sentiment?

I could go either way on Olympics vs College. But High School?

Consider context buddy.

:facepalm

Yes winning the high school state championship is more impressive, because they won due to Kareem's dominance.

US could have won the same damn gold medal without Jordan.

It's the contribution KAJ & Jordan put towards those accomplishments that matter. Jabbar was far more insturmental to his high school team and college team than Jordan was to team USA. They changed the damn rules just because of KAJ in college. Yet this kid is talking to me about UCLA not needing KAJ to win those 3 NCAA titles. :facepalm

Furthermore, this kid tried to act like he wasn't part of the 1st team when he won player of the year in his freshman year while scoring 56 points in his first ever college game [broke the NCAA record, his 1st game].

[24-Inch_Chrome]

All that really matters is that Kobe isn't close to either of them
:lol

[97 bulls]

To be fair, DPOY didn't exist during Kareem's prime, he probably would have won 1-2 had they been awarded throughout his career
And to be fair, had Jordan not retired in the middle of his prime an in 99, he would have put the alltime points record out of comission. How many MVPs would Jordan have if another league was created and Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwan played in that league as opposed to the NBA? At least 7. Maybe 8. As well as allstar game appearances. Pick a stance and stick to it. We cant eliminate context when for Jordans career and use it for Jabaars.

[West-Side]

And to be fair, had Jordan not retired in the middle of his prime an in 99, he would have put the alltime points record out of comission. How many MVPs would Jordan have if another league was created and Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwan played in that league as opposed to the NBA? At least 7. Maybe 8. As well as allstar game appearances. Pick a stance and stick to it. We cant eliminate context when for Jordans career and use it for Jabaars.

:facepalm That is exactly why KAJ's basketball resume is more impressive though.

Due to his longevity.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Playing a full career > retiring twice because bitchmade.

[97 bulls]

Consider context buddy.

:facepalm

Yes winning the high school state championship is more impressive, because they won due to Kareem's dominance.

US could have won the same damn gold medal without Jordan.
Dude. Its HIGH SCHOOL!!!!!!!! How many quality teams did Kareems teams play at the time. I bet on average, the centers he played against were 6'2.

I mean think about it. 50 teams win a state championship every year. And how many of the players on those teams are good enough to go to college on a scolarship based on their talent???? Before the dreamteam, when the Olympic team was comprised of College players, the U.S. Olympic commitee only chose the 12 BEST PLAYERS from the COUNTRY!!!!!! Just the fact that Jordan was good enough to make the Olympic team is more impressive.

[Quickening]

This thread has actually convinced me that Kareem is the GOAT :applause:

I guess taking multiple breaks, and only winning in a watered down era let MJ down.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm That is exactly why KAJ's basketball resume is more impressive though.

Due to his longevity.
But its not more impressive. Allstar games are more impressive than all defense teams??? DPOY awards?? How many allstar game MVPs does Jabaar have??? Jordan's per game averages vs Jabaars?

Some of you guys debate like women. You just wanna change the script in a heartbeat when it doesnt help your narrative. Pick a stance and stick to it. If we're gonna debate based on baseketball careers then we must include Jordans stint with the Olympics. That is a part of his career as a basketball player. If you wanna apply context, then we must take into consideration all the circumstances that allowed Jabaar and Jordan to achieve what they achieved.

[ralph_i_el]

But its not more impressive. Allstar games are more impressive than all defense teams??? DPOY awards?? How many allstar game MVPs does Jabaar have??? Jordan's per game averages vs Jabaars?

Some of you guys debate like women. You just wanna change the script in a heartbeat when it doesnt help your narrative. Pick a stance and stick to it. If we're gonna debate based on baseketball careers then we must include Jordans stint with the Olympics. That is a part of his career as a basketball player. If you wanna apply context, then we must take into consideration all the circumstances that allowed Jabaar and Jordan to achieve what they achieved.

DPOY didn't exist for Kareem's career.


MJ is not in a tier of his own

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But its not more impressive. Allstar games are more impressive than all defense teams??? DPOY awards?? How many allstar game MVPs does Jabaar have??? Jordan's per game averages vs Jabaars?

Some of you guys debate like women. You just wanna change the script in a heartbeat when it doesnt help your narrative. Pick a stance and stick to it. If we're gonna debate based on baseketball careers then we must include Jordans stint with the Olympics. That is a part of his career as a basketball player. If you wanna apply context, then we must take into consideration all the circumstances that allowed Jabaar and Jordan to achieve what they achieved.

DPOY didn't exist for most of Kareem's career, and he should have won Finals MVP in 1980.

MJ has the best case for GOAT but they're honestly both TIER 1 players. In a draft, especially when taking longevity into consideration, they would be 1A/B

[ShaqTwizzle]

DPOY didn't exist for most of Kareem's career, and he should have won Finals MVP in 1980.


Should have won FMVP in 1974 also.
Havlicek won it. 7 game series.

Kareem : 33 / 12.1 / 5.4 on 55%TS
Havlicek : 24 / 7.7 / 4.7 on 49%TS

[97 bulls]

And as Ive stated numerous times now. If we adding context to each players careers, half the MVPs Jabaar won was because a lot of the top talent went to the ABA. Can we be a little consistent here?

[ShaqTwizzle]

half the MVPs Jabaar won was because a lot of the top talent went to the ABA.

Eh... who in the ABA was good enough to be stealing MVP's away from a youthful Jabbar?
I guess maybe Doc...? Who else?

:kobe:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And as Ive stated numerous times now. If we adding context to each players careers, half the MVPs Jabaar won was because a lot of the top talent went to the ABA. Can we be a little consistent here?

That's dumb though.

Not only was Kareem better than all ABA players, but we don't know which teams they'd play for. MVP is reliant on the individual AND his team strength.

Saying Kareem was snubbed from a few DPOY's is legit, because the award actually didn't exist.

[dhsilv]

Allstar mvp is a nothing award. No dpoy during prime Kareem. Mj played the weakest position from both all nba and especially all defense perspectives. Add in the defensive awards are comically bad at times. That said they matter and are meaningful but they don't tip the scale here. The gap in games played and won while both have the best of the best stat lines ever here is just too massive and like it or not but mvps matter a lot in these discussions. Some guys considered top ten have only one mvp..it is insanely hard to get.

[97 bulls]

That's dumb though.

Not only was Kareem better than all ABA players, but we don't know which teams they'd play for. MVP is reliant on the individual AND his team strength.

Saying Kareem was snubbed from a few DPOY's is legit, because the award actually didn't exist.
Come on. Your making me laugh here. Wilt, Gilmore, and Malone were all better defensive centers than Jabaar. And I'm sure Bobby Jones would've got a DPOY award or two.

From 87 to 98, no player was better than Jordan. So your argument as to Jabaar just winning because Dr. J and Malone (among other players) weren't as good as Jabaar, is DUMB

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Come on. Your making me laugh here. Wilt, Gilmore, and Malone were all better defensive centers than Jabaar. And I'm sure Bobby Jones would've got a DPOY award or two.

You mentioned MVPs. I don't see any of those guys winning over Kareem because A) they weren't better than him, and B) they probably don't have the same team strength as the Lakers

Kareem was robbed of multiple DPOY awards, because it simply did NOT exist. This is common knowledge.


From 87 to 98, no player was better than Jordan. So your argument as to Jabaar just winning because Dr. J and Malone (among other players) weren't as good as Jabaar, is DUMB

What does this have to do with anything? I'm not trying to subtract awards from Jordan's career.

Are you lost?

[97 bulls]

Allstar mvp is a nothing award.
Did you not mention Allstar games as one of the criteria used for Kareem?? This is comical. Maybe I have you confused with another poster.


Mj played the weakest position from both all nba and especially all defense perspectives. Add in the defensive awards are comically bad at times. That said they matter and are meaningful but they don't tip the scale here. The gap in games played and won while both have the best of the best stat lines ever here is just too massive and like it or not but mvps matter a lot in these discussions. Some guys considered top ten have only one mvp..it is insanely hard to get.
Alot of the awarde Jabaar got can be contributed to the ABA splitting the talent. I cant believe some of yoi guys arguments

[97 bulls]

You mentioned MVPs. I don't see any of those guys winning over Kareem because A) they weren't better than him, and B) they probably don't have the same team strength as the Lakers
How do you know this???? Julius Erving was probably the best talent in basketball at the time. Malone repeatedly punked Jabaar in their matchup


Kareem was robbed of multiple DPOY awards, because it simply did NOT exist. This is common knowledge.
And it's common knowledge that had the two best players of the 90s after Jordan not been there like Kareems situation, he'd have more MVPs than Jabaar. I can accept context on both sides. Why can't you?



What does this have to do with anything? I'm not trying to subtract awards from Jordan's career.

Are you lost?
What you're trying to do is add context to Jabaars career when its convenient. And not apply context to Jordans career.

Like I keep saying. Pick a stance. And stick to it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How do you know this???? Julius Erving was probably the best talent in basketball at the time. Malone repeatedly punked Jabaar in their matchup

Erving is the ONLY player where your argument holds weight, but the Sixers added a few more allstars before they were playoff and championship caliber.

The 9-73 Sixers circa 1972 drafting just Dr. J? Dude isn't winning MVP. Just not happening.

Malone was drafted by the ABA in 1974. The league merged with the NBA in 1976. Any inclination that Malone would've won MVP his first 2 years in the NBA is simply unfounded. You're reaching.


And it's common knowledge that had the two best players of the 90s after Jordan not been there like Kareems situation, he'd have more MVPs than Jabaar. I can accept context on both sides. Why can't you?

But that isn't what happened.

This isn't the same thing as Kareem being robbed of a Finals MVP (fact) or being robbed of a DPOY, which didn't exist during his peak or prime.. Another fact.



What you're trying to do is add context to Jabaars career when its convenient. And not apply context to Jordans career.

Like I keep saying. Pick a stance. And stick to it.

You're applying random hypotheticals for Jordan when Kareem was factually robbed of said awards.

:biggums:

[fpliii]

Come on. Your making me laugh here. Wilt, Gilmore, and Malone were all better defensive centers than Jabaar. And I'm sure Bobby Jones would've got a DPOY award or two.

From 87 to 98, no player was better than Jordan. So your argument as to Jabaar just winning because Dr. J and Malone (among other players) weren't as good as Jabaar, is DUMB
In what universe?

[Wade's Rings]

The question was not who had the best nba career, but basketball career and college was clearly mentioned.

MJ had a much shorter career and as a result he did not have years of lower production as he aged.

Kareem has a higher WS and if we had VORP data from his early career he most certainly would be ahead of VORP. The WS and PER numbers are very similar during their primes as well.

The topic of being better as a performer goes to MJ being the better player, which he was. He was clearly a better basketball player. He did not have as successful a career due to him making choices such as leaving basketball to play baseball, retiring early, etc. Jordan chose to have have the better career, I doubt he cared if he had 20 all star nods to pass Kareem. I doubt he felt he needed to pass kareem's 36,000 points. He certainly could have broken it if he'd set his mind to it early in his career.

If it's basketball including College then it's Kareem but i thought this was NBA only.

[Wade's Rings]

Playing a full career > retiring twice because bitchmade.

:biggums:

[97 bulls]

Eh... who in the ABA was good enough to be stealing MVP's away from a youthful Jabbar?
I guess maybe Doc...? Who else?

:kobe:
Erving, Gervin, possibly Gilmore. Between tbose three. Jabaar wouldn't have at two of his MVPs.

[SHAQisGOAT]

97_bulls has some of the dumbest quotes in ISH history... And he keeps on going here :lol

1st of all, Wilt, Gilmore and Moses would've won "Kareem's" DPOY's? :rolleyes:

Wilt retired in 1973...

Gilmore was great but never even QUITE as good as a prime Kareem, defensively... And he only would've been "challenge" in one season (see more below).

Moses entered the NBA at 21 years old, not even in his prime yet... And you're gonna tell me that Malone was better defensively than prime Kareem? :oldlol: You don't know what you're talking about...

If DPOY was awarded back then, Kareem most likely wins it in 1979 (AFTER the merger), 1974 (from the ABA only Artis could've challenge it and I really doubt he'd be above KAJ), and it's either him or Dan Roundfield in 1980...
--> So, if DPOY was awarded back then, Kareem most likely would've won 2 of them.

Bobby Jones would've most likely won DPOY in 1977, in the NBA...

Who, from the ABA, "takes" Kareem's 1971 MVP? Mel Daniels (ABA MVP)? Rick Barry? Dan Issel? :rolleyes: Gimme a break...

How about 1972? Gilmore? Not a chance.

1974? Young Doc? Doubt it VERY MUCH, matter of fact... just no.

1976? Erving would've been deep in the discussion yea, I'll give you that much.

Doc was the only who could've rivaled Kareem and even so... He couldn't quite **** with prime Jabbar... Shit, Dr J entered the NBA in 1977 and only won one MVP in 1981.

And EVEN Magic wanted to give the 1980 FMVP to Kareem, but Jabbar didn't accept it... That was KAJ's FMVP all the way.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Erving, Gervin, possibly Gilmore. Between tbose three. Jabaar wouldn't have at two of his MVPs.

Erving was a young pup when he won ABA MVP in 1974... Not ****ing with Kareem. In 1976 he'd be up there though, could've challenged it.

Gilmore only won ONE ABA MVP and he wasn't reaching Kareem's level.

Gervin, nikka? :oldlol:
Iceman was really young in the ABA, NOT EVEN in his PRIME there... Dude never even made the all-ABA 1st team.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about... Go and say Moses was a better defensive center than Kareem or something :oldlol:

And it's Jabbar not Jabaar :coleman:

[97 bulls]

This isn't the same thing as Kareem being robbed of a Finals MVP (fact) or being robbed of a DPOY, which didn't exist during his peak or prime.. Another fact.




You're applying random hypotheticals for Jordan when Kareem was factually robbed of said awards.

:biggums:
We both are. The difference is that you want to be able to do it but tie my hands so I wont be able to.

Whats the argument here. Are we basing each players careers off face value? If thats the case then why does Jordan have to be penalized for being in a situation different from Jabaar but make concessions for Jabaars circumstances???

Granted the DPOY award wasnt around in Jabaars prime. But the basketball talent wasnt split across two leagues either. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Right? Kareem winning a DPOY award is no more of a guarantee than Jordan winning more MVPs if two or three of basketballs best players packed up and joined another league.

[3ball]

Mj played the weakest position from both all nba and especially all defense perspectives.



The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man, with plenty to spare:


THE BEST WINGS FROM EACH ERA


...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Alex English, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Latrell Sprewell, Sidney Moncrief, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis
.

[3ball]

Mj played the weakest position from both all nba and especially all defense perspectives.



..................All-NBA Awarded Guards


........2015.................... 1991...................... 1996

James Harden............ Clyde Drexler........... Gary Payton
Steph Curry............... John Stockton........... John Stockton
Chris Paul.................. Magic Johnson.......... Penny Hardaway
Russell Westbrook....... Michael Jordan......... Michael Jordan
Kyrie Irving............... Joe Dumars.............. Mitch Richmond
Klay Thompson........... Reggie Miller............ Reggie Miller


1991 and 1996 are stronger

and the previous post lists all top wings from 1984-1998 and 2000-2015 - previous eras have obvious edge
.

[dhsilv]

Did you not mention Allstar games as one of the criteria used for Kareem?? This is comical. Maybe I have you confused with another poster.


Alot of the awarde Jabaar got can be contributed to the ABA splitting the talent. I cant believe some of yoi guys arguments

While I place VERY little on being an allstar, it is an award for being good during real games. The MVP of said game gets an award for not goofing off too much in said game. I honestly would rather they just drop the game all together, but that's me.

The ABA comment is fair. Dr J perhaps was MVP worthy. Was anyone else? I'm pretty sure Moses was in the nba before he took off and the bottom of the aba is just awful.

I get blasted for mentioning the bulls might get a couple more wins due to expansion...litterally a couple more wins. So I'm not really going to have any sympathy for this ABA argument. The awards happened, we're judging is career. You might get lucky and become CEO when you shouldn't be. You still get to put CEO on your resume do you not?

Again, I"m not calling Kareem is a better basketball player. I'm just talking careers. One which MJ just didn't have a long enough one to match Kareems.

Ever see a job posting wanting 15+ years experience? Well...the roughly 600 games played difference (playoffs and regular season) matters on their resume too.

[Euroleague]

Kareem had the best basketball career. Jordan had the best agent, and marketing/PR team.

[feyki]

Kareem had the best basketball career. Jordan had the best agent, and marketing/PR team.

:rockon: :rockon:

[Euroleague]

What about Jordans two Olympic Gold Medals to Kareems 0???? Its gotta be Jordan. How are these guys putting soooo much stock in College? Even over the pros.

In 1984, no fully professional players (NBA or any other league) could play in the Olympics.

In 1992, no team could realistically stay within 30 points of the Dream Team. The best European national teams of back then, like Croatia, would lose by 20-30 points to a top 5-6 European national team of today.

Jordan's gold medals at the Olympics are totally irrelevant and meaningless accomplishments basketball wise.

The only significance that held was the marketing that the Dream Team gave the NBA in Europe. Which is part of the fact that Jordan was undeniably the most marketable basketball player of all time, and the NBA's all time biggest cash cow, along with Yao Ming.

But basketball wise, it meant jack shit.

[DoctorP]

Kareem has 2 more titles yet Jordan has perfection. Truly 1a/1b.


Edit: Kareem has more games played. Games played and more titles > perfect run.



Kareem wins.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kareem has 2 more titles yet Jordan has perfection. Truly 1a/1b.

Kareem also has 2 titles where he wasn't even close to the best player on his team, let alone the best player in the league. Which is something you couldn't say about Jordan in either respect

[Euroleague]

You're missing the point. It was not a givendominatedg the Americans would win the gold anymore. Sure 84 dominated. They were a great team. Heres the winners going back to 72

72 Russia
76 US
80 Yugoslavia (US) boycott
84 US (Russia boycotted)
88 Russia

Then the dreamteam.

The 84 team dominated. But so did UCLA. They went 30-0. And won 3 straight Championships.

How is Kareems accomplishment harder?

I hate to break it to you man, but Russia has never won any gold medal in men's basketball at the Olympics.

You are exposing yourself as being a true NBA only fan.

[Euroleague]

the US didnt have NBA players till 1992

:lol

That's actually an NBA lie and marketing myth. USA had NBA players all the time at the Olympics prior to 1992.

What they did not have were fully professional players. Fully professional players, from anywhere in the world were not allowed until 1992 for the Olympics and 1994 for the FIBA World Championship (called FIBA World Cup now).

However, there was nothing that said NBA players could not play, and they did all the time - only for USA though, not for other countries.

The "NBA players were not allowed" isn't actually true, and is another NBA marketing gimmick. You just could not be a fully professional player.

[3ball]

You guys are weighting their college and NBA careers equally, like 50/50

But MJ's advantage in the NBA is worth much more than Kareem's college advantage.

Let's compare how many games they played in the NBA vs. college and see which one should be weighted more.

MJ's career is simply >>>>>.... In addition to being a better professional basketball player with superior accolades, MJ's career had a far greater impact on the game than Kareem's.

[Euroleague]

What are you defining as an accomplishment that MJ has over Kareem? 1 ring in the nba? That's really the only meaningful accomplishment he has, unless you think silly things like scoring titles matter.

I am pretty sure Jordan and Kareem both won 6 NBA championships.

[Euroleague]

And my response centered around all defense teams, dpoy awards, and.allstar game MVPs. And you never responded.

WTF? Are you just trolling or what?

[Euroleague]

But its not more impressive. Allstar games are more impressive than all defense teams??? DPOY awards?? How many allstar game MVPs does Jabaar have??? Jordan's per game averages vs Jabaars?

Some of you guys debate like women. You just wanna change the script in a heartbeat when it doesnt help your narrative. Pick a stance and stick to it. If we're gonna debate based on baseketball careers then we must include Jordans stint with the Olympics. That is a part of his career as a basketball player. If you wanna apply context, then we must take into consideration all the circumstances that allowed Jabaar and Jordan to achieve what they achieved.

When you brought up Jordan's two Olympic gold medals, you eliminated any proper context going forward in the thread right there.

It's something Jordan has as an "accomplishment", in terms of it being something to list on a resume - but that is it (other than as I said, the marketing aspect of the Dream Team, as it helped the NBA get in the sports market in Europe). However, both of those gold medals were completely meaningless in terms of a pure basketball context, and anyone that can't grasp that in this thread is either a moron, or they are trolling, or both.

[Euroleague]

And as Ive stated numerous times now. If we adding context to each players careers, half the MVPs Jabaar won was because a lot of the top talent went to the ABA. Can we be a little consistent here?

I could name probably 50 players in recent years that were either scrubs in Euroleague, or even could not ever make Euroleague level, that were starters/6th men/rotation players in the NBA.

Right now, the top 2 candidates for NBA Rookie of the Year consist of an average Eurocup (league level below Euroleague) player (Porzingis), and a scrub from FIBA Americas level, which is a lower level probably than the Eurocup (in Towns).

Using this so-called logic you are arguing here, that means that players like Curry or LeBron can't have anything done in the NBA count as anything. Because the NBA only has maybe 15 of the top 25 players in the world in it, maybe only the best 2-3 players in the world in it out of the top 5 or so, and on top of that, the average NBA player at the 7 through 9 spot in the rotation of a typical NBA team, is not good enough to make the rotation in any good Euroleague team, with your typical 10-15 NBA roster player, being below the level of an average Eurocup (level below Euroleague) rotation player.

The NBA was MUCH BETTER as compared to the ABA in that day, than it is compared to the Euroleague now. Even the Eurocup (2nd tier European league) is closer in level to the NBA now I think, than the ABA was then.

The only reasons this is not accepted in the USA, are because of political xenophobia USA only "exceptionalism" bullshit, and absurd NBA bullshit gimmick marketing schemes.

There are plenty of arguments you could be making for Jordan over Kareem here in this thread, but you are not making any of them. The arguments you are making don't hold up under any proper context, or objective analysis.

Just argue that Jordan was a better player, and that means more to you than career success. Otherwise, it sounds like you are just making up bullshit.

[97 bulls]

In 1984, no fully professional players (NBA or any other league) could play in the Olympics.

In 1992, no team could realistically stay within 30 points of the Dream Team. The best European national teams of back then, like Croatia, would lose by 20-30 points to a top 5-6 European national team of today.

Jordan's gold medals at the Olympics are totally irrelevant and meaningless accomplishments basketball wise.

The only significance that held was the marketing that the Dream Team gave the NBA in Europe. Which is part of the fact that Jordan was undeniably the most marketable basketball player of all time, and the NBA's all time biggest cash cow, along with Yao Ming.

But basketball wise, it meant jack shit.
Look. If HIGH SCHOOL is gonna be added as a prerequisite then why not the Olympics?

[97 bulls]

When you brought up Jordan's two Olympic gold medals, you eliminated any proper context going forward in the thread right there.

It's something Jordan has as an "accomplishment", in terms of it being something to list on a resume - but that is it (other than as I said, the marketing aspect of the Dream Team, as it helped the NBA get in the sports market in Europe). However, both of those gold medals were completely meaningless in terms of a pure basketball context, and anyone that can't grasp that in this thread is either a moron, or they are trolling, or both.
Read the thread before you comment. I only mentioned the Olympics because a few people.felt it necessary to bring up high school as a part of resume.

[97 bulls]

I hate to break it to you man, but Russia has never won any gold medal in men's basketball at the Olympics.

You are exposing yourself as being a true NBA only fan.
Exposing? When did I try to hide it. I dont care much about basketball overseas past the Olympics

[LAZERUSS]

Including Gold Medals is virtually worthless.

Historically, even USA college teams have plastered the best of the rest of the world in the Olympics.

I still recall the '68 team, which annihilated the rest of their Olympic competition...and didn't even send anyone close to their best COLLEGE players. Can you imagine the carnage a team with Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Pete Maravich, and yes, Kareem, would have carpet-bombed their Olympic competition with?

Reality... Europe is, and has been, the equivalent of the D-League.

[97 bulls]

Including Gold Medals is virtually worthless.

Historically, even USA college teams have plastered the best of the rest of the world in the Olympics.

I still recall the '68 team, which annihilated the rest of their Olympic competition...and didn't even send anyone close to their best COLLEGE players. Can you imagine the carnage a team with Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Pete Maravich, and yes, Kareem, would have carpet-bombed their Olympic competition with?

Reality... Europe is, and has been, the equivalent of the D-League.
If HIGH SCHOOL is gonna be considerer i dont see why the Olympics shouldnt. Does it hold the same weight as winning in the NBA? No. College? Probably not. But high school???

And remember. This is supposed to be a discussion on BASKETBALL OVERALL.

[LAZERUSS]

If HIGH SCHOOL is gonna be considerer i dont see why the Olympics shouldnt. Does it hold the same weight as winning in the NBA? No. College? Probably not. But high school???

And remember. This is supposed to be a discussion on BASKETBALL OVERALL.

I was merely responding to Euroleague's nonsense.

IMHO, MJ had a greater career than KAJ. Having said that, though, I would take a peak Kareem over a peak Jordan.

[97 bulls]

I was merely responding to Euroleague's nonsense.

IMHO, MJ had a greater career than KAJ. Having said that, though, I would take a peak Kareem over a peak Jordan.
Fair enough

[SamuraiSWISH]

NBA? Jordan
Everything ... HS and NCAA? Kareem

If MJ played in '94, won another Scoring Title, 1st Team Defense, All NBA 1st Team, possible MVP and 4x chips in a row?

Retired for the '95 season.

Comes back and three peats from '96 - '98 and still goes out the way he did at age 35, with the MVP, and game winning steal / shot. And then actually stayed retired?

Literally would've been the most perfect, and mythical NBA career. It still is as of right now. But I think there was chips and accomplishments left on the table still.

[3ball]

NBA? Jordan
Everything ... HS and NCAA? Kareem

If MJ played in '94, won another Scoring Title, 1st Team Defense, All NBA 1st Team, possible MVP and 4x chips in a row?

Retired for the '95 season.

Comes back and three peats from '96 - '98 and still goes out the way he did at age 35, with the MVP, and game winning steal / shot. And then actually stayed retired?

Literally would've been the most perfect, and mythical NBA career. It still is as of right now. But I think there was chips and accomplishments left on the table still.
Is the bolded above a sentence?/

your post is the worst english ever - no one would be able to understand what you're trying to say

[3ball]

You guys are weighting their college and NBA careers equally, like 50/50

But MJ's advantage in the NBA is worth much more than Kareem's college advantage.. Let's compare how many games they played in the NBA vs. college and see which one should be weighted more.

Also, what's the point of comparing their careers without comparing the IMPACT of their careers?... MJ's impact was far greater

So in addition to being a better professional basketball player with superior accolades, MJ's career had a far greater IMPACT on the game than Kareem's.

[97 bulls]

NBA? Jordan
Everything ... HS and NCAA? Kareem

If MJ played in '94, won another Scoring Title, 1st Team Defense, All NBA 1st Team, possible MVP and 4x chips in a row?

Retired for the '95 season.

Comes back and three peats from '96 - '98 and still goes out the way he did at age 35, with the MVP, and game winning steal / shot. And then actually stayed retired?

Literally would've been the most perfect, and mythical NBA career. It still is as of right now. But I think there was chips and accomplishments left on the table still.
Why is high school considered and not the Olympics

[3ball]

Why is high school considered and not the Olympics
Why are you guys weighting college equally with the NBA?

MJ's advantage in the NBA is worth much more than Kareem's college advantage, which is why his career is better.

[97 bulls]

Why are you guys weighting college equally with the NBA?

MJ's advantage in the NBA is worth much more than Kareem's college advantage, which is why his career is better.
I agree with you. But im just humoring them.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Why is high school considered and not the Olympics
Where was I not counting the Olympics?

[TheBigVeto]

From accomplishment standpoint it's a wash.
Jordan takes this one because he actually got credited properly. Kareem never did (his credit went to Magic, which is bullshit).

[3ball]

From accomplishment standpoint it's a wash.
Jordan takes this one because MJ actually got credited properly. Kareem never did (his credit went to Magic, which is bullshit).




MJ got credited properly because his PPG was literally 50-100% higher than his #2 guy (Pippen) every year... Otoh, Kareem was anywhere from 2nd to 6th fiddle on his Laker championship teams, depending on the year:


Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1982: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1985: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... MJ's lowest PPG in playoffs was 29.3, his rookie year (9 apg that year).. No comparison

[Smoke117]

MJ got credited properly because his PPG was literally 50-300% higher than his #2 guy (Pippen) every year... Otoh, Kareem was anywhere from 2nd to 6th fiddle on his Laker championship teams, depending on the year:


Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1982: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1985: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... MJ's lowest PPG in playoffs was 29.3, his rookie year (9 apg that year).. Don't compare KAJ to MJ.. It's offensive
.

It's almost like Kareem was already 38 in the 1985 playoffs and beyond...oh wait. Well...let's compare Kareem 38+ to MJ 38+ in the playoffs...oh wait.

[dhsilv]

I am pretty sure Jordan and Kareem both won 6 NBA championships.

Thanks, not sure why I was thinking 5. Good catch.

[feyki]

_-------

[ClipperRevival]

If you include HS and college, it's KAJ. But strictly NBA, i say MJ. He was dominant from start to finish and was always "the man" while KAJ sort of blended into 2nd fiddle later in his career. This is evidenced by 6 fmvp for MJ and 2 for KAJ (although he should have 3).

[kennethgriffin]

MJ got credited properly because his PPG was literally 50-100% higher than his #2 guy (Pippen) every year... Otoh, Kareem was anywhere from 2nd to 6th fiddle on his Laker championship teams, depending on the year:


Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1982: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1985: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... MJ's lowest PPG in playoffs was 29.3, his rookie year (9 apg that year).. No comparison



kareem won 56 games his rookie year as his teams leader in points ( 29ppg ) rebounds ( 15rpg ) and probably a shit ton of other stats if they were even kept back then

35/17 in the playoffs



dude.. kareem was the better player.