Today's game has unbelievable spacing

[3ball]

https://media.giphy.com/media/KqvkYERJmJ7hK/giphy.gif


Look at all that space!!... MJ never had space like that!!!

Every single possession in today's game has 3+ shooters behind the 3-point line spacing the floor..

The extra space makes it easier on ballhandlers, since they have more room to beat their mean - and even still, Lebron can barely beat his man!!!

It's obvious that all quick ballhandlers from previous eras would produce more today on a per possession basis than they did in their era.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Jordan would average 40 no doubt. 55 if hes in the east and allowed to collude.

[buddha]

yeah MJ would average atleast 35 points per game his entire career, except for those washington years.

[warriorfan]

It's common knowledge that Jordan would average at least 35 points per game while shooting incredibly efficiently if he played in Today's game.

[FKAri]

What would Curry's play look like in the 90's 3ball?

[Levity]

i know coaches hate these type of shots, but any player with a LEGIT midrange game, will be unstoppable in todays league. granted you have shooters around him. PG is a decent example. his efficiency isnt the greatest, but hes still putting up 25+ a game

[Sarcastic]

What would Curry's play look like in the 90's 3ball?

Probably like Mahmoud Abdul Rauf.

[3ball]

What would Curry's play look like in the 90's 3ball?


Not top 5, like he is today.. In the 90's, he'd rank behind Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, and more.

In the 70's, he wouldn't be anywhere NEAR the best player, like he is today - all his 3-pointers at 44% (half his shots), would turn into long two's at 44%, so he'd be MUCH worse back then.. He'd be worse than Maravich or World B Free, who were better 2-point shotmakers.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2015/GHqPNB.gif


The fact that all his threes would become long two's, means that defenders have more options on how to guard him - sagging off doesn't hurt them - long two's at 44% don't hurt teams
.

[JohnMax]

https://media.giphy.com/media/KqvkYERJmJ7hK/giphy.gif

Lebron jumped off his right foot

[AlphaWolf24]

MJ wasn't a good 3 point shooter...1990 3 point shootout...:lol

I would assume his game would be way more 3 point friendly if he played in the modern era...

and I would assume he would be a very good shooter ( he worked so hard on his game)...

But judging on his past skillset ....his FG% would drop and he prolly wouldn't be able to get as many points in the paint....

[Hey Yo]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2015/GHqPNB.gif
Prob. the best thing you ever posted here.

[SexSymbol]

It would be sad to see Curry clowning 90s era

[3ball]

It would be sad to see Curry clowning 90s era



Jumpshots in today's game are easier to get, since perimeter defense is a league-mandated hands-off, essentially mandating space between defender and ballhandler:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-07-2015/KVA0Bm.gif



In previous eras, defense was hand-on, so there was no space and jumpshots were harder - obviously, Curry's stats would be less against this brand of defense than the one shown above:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/V2-pAN.gif


And again, in the 70's Curry would be much worse... The fact that all his threes would become long two's, means that defenders have more options on how to guard him - sagging off doesn't hurt them - long two's at 44% don't hurt teams..

Half of Curry's shots transform from the most efficient shot in the league (a Curry 3-pointer), into the lowest efficiency shot in the league (long two).

[ISHGoat]

Why did MJ never have spacing like that? Why were the GMs and coaches of yesteryear less advanced than those of today?

[FKAri]

In the 70's, he wouldn't be anywhere NEAR the best player, like he is today - all his 3-pointers at 44% (half his shots), would turn into long two's at 44%, so he'd be MUCH worse back then.. He'd be worse than Maravich or World B Free, who were better 2-point shotmakers.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2015/GHqPNB.gif


The fact that all his threes would become long two's, means that defenders have more options on how to guard him - sagging off doesn't hurt them - long two's at 44% don't hurt teams
.

I see.

Also, if James Naismith doesn't cut the bottom of the peach basket would MJ ever get his ball back from him?

[3ball]

MJ wasn't a good 3 point shooter...


MJ's lack of volume meant he never got in a rhythm shooting the ball like all high volume 3-point shooters get.

Not surprisingly, anytime Jordan DID shoot a slightly higher volume, he shot much better - anytime he took 3+ three-pointers per game, he shot excellently (37% in 1990 and 36% in 1992)...

Surely if he shot 6+ threes per game like today's player, he'd realize the same economies of scale in his percentage that today's player enjoys

[3ball]

Why did MJ never have spacing like that? Why were the GMs and coaches of yesteryear less advanced than those of today?


When MJ entered the league in 1984, teams attempted two 3-pointers per game - with no one behind the line, there was no spacing.. Occasionally, teams would position 3+ players behind the 3-point line for isolation purposes just like today's game, but those type of clearout plays were considered gimmicks and they occurred once or twice per game, many times not at all...

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.

And even without the spacing (even without shooters behind the 3-point line) today's defender must keep the paint clear.. For example, if an offensive player is standing on the block, his defender can't stand 8 feet away under the rim - the defender must stand right next to their man on the block, within "armslength", as stipulated in the new defensive 3 seconds rule instituted in 2005.. The "armslength" restriction forces defenders to vacate the paint when their man is outside the paint, since that's out of "armslength".. The only way today's defender can remain in the paint is if their man is inside the paint and standing right next to them.

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision - Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allows defenders to remain the paint "with no time limit" if their man is inside the paint or within 3 feet of either side.. So unlike today's game, a defender CAN remain under the rim while his man was 8 feet away on the block, or even 12 feet away near the FT line.. This legal paint-camping provision exacerbated the crowded paints that the lack of spacing had already created.

[Hey Yo]

When MJ entered the league in 1984, teams attempted two 3-pointers per game - with no one behind the line, there was no spacing.. Occasionally, teams would position 3+ players behind the 3-point line for isolation purposes just like today's game, but those type of clearout plays were considered gimmicks and they occurred once or twice per game, many times not at all...

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.

And even without the spacing (even without shooters behind the 3-point line) today's defender must keep the paint clear.. For example, if an offensive player is standing on the block, his defender can't stand 8 feet away under the rim - the defender must stand right next to their man on the block, within "armslength", as stipulated in the new defensive 3 seconds rule instituted in 2005.. The "armslength" restriction forces defenders to vacate the paint when their man is outside the paint, since that's out of "armslength".. The only way today's defender can remain in the paint is if their man is inside the paint and standing right next to them.

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision - Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allows defenders to remain the paint "with no time limit" if their man is inside the paint or within 3 feet of either side.. So unlike today's game, a defender CAN remain under the rim while his man was 8 feet away on the block, or even 12 feet away near the FT line.. This legal paint-camping provision exacerbated the crowded paints that the lack of spacing had already created.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s432/themisc2/did-not-read-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-927.gif


They're coming to put 3ball in the padded room.

[Court Vision]

Lebron jumped off his right foot

Not uncommon to switch jump-off feet to shield the ball.

[Lebron23]

OP is getting roasted in this thread.

[3ball]

http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s432/themisc2/did-not-read-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-927.gif


Occasionally, teams in previous eras would position 3+ players behind the 3-point line for isolation purposes just like today's game, but those type of clearout plays were considered gimmicks and they occurred once or twice per game, or none at all.

Whereas every single possession in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement, which gives ballhandlers more time and room to operate than ever before (see OP gif).

In addition to spacing, the hands-off defense and resulting space between players (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11873836&postcount=13) gives complete carte blanche to ballhandlers.

[3ball]

OP is getting roasted in this thread.


And even without the spacing (even without shooters behind the 3-point line) today's defender must keep the paint clear.. If an offensive player is standing on the block, his defender can't stand 8 feet away under the rim - the defender must stand right next to their man on the block, within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), as stipulated in the new defensive 3 seconds rule instituted in 2005.. The "armslength" restriction forces defenders to vacate the paint when their man is outside the paint, since that is out of "armslength".. The only way today's defender can remain in the paint is if their man is already inside the paint and standing right next to them.

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allows defenders to remain the paint "with no time limit" if their man is inside the paint or within 3 feet of either side.. So unlike today's game, a defender CAN remain under the rim while his man was 8 feet away on the block, or even 12 feet away near the FT line.. This legal paint-camping provision exacerbated the crowded paints that the the no-spacing environment had already created.

[sdot_thadon]

Look at all that space!!... MJ never had space like that!!!
I agree he never had space like that, he had space like this.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nxNI-zbhGsA/U7E-gLpPXMI/AAAAAAAA3k8/b5apwGjvI20/w2120-h1252-p/Michael%2BJordan%2BShrug%2BShot%2BScience.gif

Goat had a game where he hit 6 3s in a half on unbelievable space.

Look at that space!! Steph never had space like that!!!!
Imagine what steph would do with all that space.......

[FKAri]

I agree he never had space like that, he had space like this.
https://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/jordan-shrug-small.gif
Goat had a game where he hit 6 3s in a half on unbelievable space.

Look at that space!! Steph never had space like that!!!!
Imagine what steph would do with all that space.......

WIDE OPEN?? :eek:

90's :facepalm

[3ball]

sdot meltdown

[3ball]

sdot meltdown

[3ball]

pathetic

[3ball]

And even without the spacing (even without shooters behind the 3-point line) today's defender must keep the paint clear.. If an offensive player is standing on the block, his defender can't stand 8 feet away under the rim - the defender must stand right next to their man on the block, within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), as stipulated in the new defensive 3 seconds rule instituted in 2005.. The "armslength" restriction forces defenders to vacate the paint when their man is outside the paint, since that is out of "armslength".. The only way today's defender can remain in the paint is if their man is already inside the paint and standing right next to them.

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allows defenders to remain the paint "with no time limit" if their man is inside the paint or within 3 feet of either side.. So unlike today's game, a defender CAN remain under the rim while his man was 8 feet away on the block, or even 12 feet away near the FT line.. This legal paint-camping provision exacerbated the crowded paints that the the no-spacing environment had already created.
Does that make sense Lebron23

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

:lol

[sdot_thadon]

Curry never had space like that, imagine what he'd do to the 90's. Mj given all that space could only manage to do what's fairly routine for Steph with defense all over him once....

Ha, the genius finally sees the light, maybe you should cast that all seeing eye at yourself sometimes fella, just a lil tip.

[fpliii]

Agreed. Playing more shooters and utilizing their gravity effects is smart basketball, since that spacing opens up the floor. Needs to be coupled with tons of motion in the offense though (like the best teams, i.e. GS and SA do), or it's not very fun to watch.

[3ball]

MJ had tons of space on the 3-pointer over Cliff Robinson in 1992 Finals


MJ's three-pointer over Cliff Robinson was a catch and shoot - the space I'm referring to is when the ballhandler is dribbling the ball.

Today's ballhandler has more space due to league-mandated hands-off defense, which creates space between defender and ballhandler for easier pull-up jumpshooting, shown earlier itt (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11873836&postcount=13).





Goat had a game where he hit 6 3s in a half in Finals


MJ's lack of 3-point volume meant he never got in a rhythm like high volume 3-point shooters do.

Not surprisingly, anytime Jordan DID shoot a slightly higher 3-point volume, he shot much better - anytime he took 3+ three-pointers per game, he shot excellently (37% in 1990 and 36% in 1992)...

Surely if he shot 6+ threes per game like today's player, he'd realize the same economies of scale in his percentage that today's player enjoys





Playing more shooters and utilizing their gravity effects is smart basketball, since that spacing opens up the floor.


And even without the spacing (even without shooters behind the 3-point line) today's defender must keep the paint clear..

If an offensive player is standing on the block, his defender can't stand 8 feet away under the rim - the defender must stand right next to their man on the block, within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), as stipulated in the new defensive 3 seconds rule instituted in 2005.. The "armslength" restriction forces defenders to vacate the paint when their man is outside the paint, since that is out of "armslength".. The only way today's defender can remain in the paint is if their man is already inside the paint and standing right next to them.

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allows defenders to remain the paint "with no time limit" if their man is inside the paint or within 3 feet of either side.. So unlike today's game, a defender CAN remain under the rim while his man was 8 feet away on the block, or even 12 feet away near the FT line.. This legal paint-camping provision exacerbated the crowded paints that the the no-spacing environment had already created.
.

[AlphaWolf24]

MJ's lack of volume meant he never got in a rhythm shooting the ball like all high volume 3-point shooters get.

Not surprisingly, anytime Jordan DID shoot a slightly higher volume, he shot much better - anytime he took 3+ three-pointers per game, he shot excellently (37% in 1990 and 36% in 1992)...

Surely if he shot 6+ threes per game like today's player, he'd realize the same economies of scale in his percentage that today's player enjoys

he never got into rhythm...and took a lot of 3's because ..

A) He wasn't a very good 3 point shooter
B) he played in an era where the 3 point shot was not as widely used.
C) he always let success be his guide when MJ took 3's...in other words it WAS NOT part of his game....but when he felt comfortable and made a few....he kept shooting......which wasn't very often.


your example is like when Dwight Howard has a game where he makes 70% of his FT's....maybe the other team fouled him a lot and he got into rhythm...

he still sucks at FT's...


surley if MJ grew up in the 2000's and grew up with the 3 pointer as a main option he probably would be a great 3 point shooter......so would Bill Russell ....or Oscar Robertson....

but he didn't...he grew up in the primitive era of outside shooting/3 pointers....and wasn't very good at it.

_____________________

his release was also very flat when he shot from 3....especially compared to Curry and other great shooters.....Curry is just on another level.

[fpliii]

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision
I agree.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like the post is gone.

[3ball]

Why did MJ never have spacing like that? Why were the GMs and coaches of yesteryear less advanced than those of today?


When MJ entered the league in 1984, teams attempted two 3-pointers per game - with no one behind the line, there was no spacing..

Occasionally, teams would position 3+ players behind the 3-point line for isolation purposes just like today's game, but those type of clearout plays were considered gimmicks and they occurred once or twice per game, many times not at all...

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.

[FKAri]

3ball claims someone is having a meltdown...3ball then types 6 posts in a row

in b4 post deletes

[3ball]

3ball claims someone is having a meltdown...3ball then types 6 posts in a row

in b4 post deletes
the consecutive posts were so the thread would go to next page because sdot_thadon tried to post a big image to distort the thread

apparently his actual trolling skills have declined so he has to post big images instead.. he's past his prime like lebron

[3ball]

MJ's release was flat when he shot from 3....especially compared to Curry and other great shooters.....Curry is just on another level.


MJ's form was perfect.. But the great thing about MJ is that he didn't need the 3-point line to achieve great stats.. He averaged 37 ppg on all two-pointers with 59% ts.

Otoh, Curry would be a far lesser player without the 3-point line in the 70's... Without the 3-point line, all the high efficiency threes at 44% (half his shots) would be low efficiency, long two's at 44%... Long two's don't hurt a defense.. In the 70's, short guards that took a lot of long two's were considered dime-a-dozen gunners, not top players.. Curry is lucky the 3-point line turns him from low-efficiency gunner into a top player.

Also, his shots inside 15 feet would be far better contested in the 70's, since defenders didn't have to guard the 3-point line - that's why DRtg was literally 10 points lower in the 70's.

In the 70's, short gunners that can't dominate inside end up being World B Free and Maravich-level players, and those guys were actually better 2-point shotmakers than Curry.. But they were never considered the best player in the game or anywhere near, like Curry is now.. Again, today's spaced-out, 3-point friendly league is the only era where Curry would be a top player.

[fpliii]

http://i65.tinypic.com/24l0osi.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/2qb7me0.jpg

[3ball]

Nowitski creates shots for others by simply standing without having the ball in his hands.


MJ did this more than anyone in this history of the game, other than Wilt.. The defense had to be wary wherever MJ was on the floor.
.

[3ball]

"Five guys working on the court together can achieve more than 5 talented individuals"

- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense with some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen... It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry, but MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Also, MJ often shot high volume, which controls pace... He also shot WELL at that high volume, which gave his team a chance to win.. However, achieving high efficiency at high volume while winning a championship requires the most skill - the player must achieve the high volume at high efficiency within a team concept, without diminishing the stats of teammates.

[I]The only players reach the holy grail of basketball skill by shooting well high volume while winning a championship (25+ fga while shooting 45%+ during playoffs) were MJ four times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).

In MJ's case, he averaged an amazing 25.1 shot attempts in the playoffs on 49%.. When you compare his per 100 stats to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts
.

[fpliii]

http://i65.tinypic.com/zmlfzl.jpg

[AlphaWolf24]

http://i65.tinypic.com/zmlfzl.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/eb/d4/1e/ebd41e5ec76dcc379b19760e59c4205c.jpg

[3ball]

http://i65.tinypic.com/zmlfzl.jpg


Wow... MJ said he got double-teamed and Wilt didn't... MJ's goat... :pimp:

He also said if he played in Wilt's day, it would be like him going against John Stockton on the post, which sounds like something on ISH tbh.. I have no comment here

He also said Detroit focused their entire defense on stopping HIM - yet he still averaged 32/7/6 on 47% in 1989 and 1990 ECF.. :eek:... MJ goat

He said averaging 37 a game was tough because you had to get over 40 to offset a 32 point game.. :bowdown:

Btw, since MJ said he was double-teamed and Wilt wasn't, then the MJ-double-team thread is spot-on:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210

[3ball]

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision






I agree.



^^^ This was you quoting me in post #35 of this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875222&postcount=35

So you agree that MJ and players in previous eras faced paint-camping and therefore superior paint defense than today's era open paint era, where defenders cannot stand in the paint when their man is on the block, let alone behind the 3-point line.

Today's defender must stand right next to their man on the block, within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), as stipulated in the new defensive 3 seconds rule instituted in 2005.. The "armslength" restriction forces defenders to vacate the paint when their man is outside the paint, since that is out of "armslength".. The only way today's defender can remain in the paint is if their man is already inside the paint and standing right next to them.

But in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting and closer proximity of players to the rim activated the league's legal paint-camping provision - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allows defenders to remain the paint "with no time limit" if their man is inside the paint or within 3 feet of either side.. So unlike today's game, a defender CAN remain under the rim while his man was 8 feet away on the block, or even 12 feet away near the FT line.. This legal paint-camping provision exacerbated the crowded paints that the the no-spacing environment had already created.

[GIF REACTION]

We in the middle of the nba season 3ball

Knock it off geezer

[3ball]

We in the middle of the nba season 3ball

Knock it off geezer
Read the title - I'm commenting on today's game - the unbelievable spacing in today's game gives ballhandlers more time and room to beat their man.. Otoh, when MJ entered the league in 1984, teams attempted two 3-pointers per game - with no one behind the line, there was no spacing..

Occasionally, teams would position 3+ players behind the 3-point line for isolation purposes just like today's game, but those type of clearout plays were considered gimmicks and they occurred once or twice per game, many times not at all...

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and an optimal setup for the ballhandler..

Look at that Derozan dunk over Gobert tonight - that type of easy path to the rim is standard in today's spaced out court - perfect for quick ballhandlers like Derozan.. Wonder what MJ would do if he had the opportunity to beat defenders to the spot, rather than have them already waiting there (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=10m16s).
.

[PsychoBe]

3ball off his meds again

[2swift4u]

:facepalm Are you guys even aware of the fact that this was in the 4th quarter with 18 seconds left and the Cavs were down by 3 ?? So obviously Detroit didn't want to give Cleveland an open 3point-shot and that's the reason for all the spacing and nobody protecting the paint.

[sdot_thadon]

the consecutive posts were so the thread would go to next page because sdot_thadon tried to post a big image to distort the thread

apparently his actual trolling skills have declined so he has to post big images instead.. he's past his prime like lebron
I posted the gif because the 1st one didn't work right. Nobody has to do anything to distort your threads, they come that way. Consider the source. Also you gotta be one stupid mofo to let a picture ruin your ability to read. Just wanted to make sure you know that curry never had the kind of space Mj had. Imagine him in the 90's with all that space......



The failures were beginning to haunt him, although he doubted anything would change. To some extent, he believed he was reaching—or had reached—the apex of his majesty. “Yeah,” he said as camp was about to begin, “people may have seen my best, although it’s not that much due to me. Defenses are not going to let me get to the basket like I used to. Everyone’s going to make me take the outside shot. When Detroit
started knocking me on my ass, everyone started playing me that way, so I’m not allowed the creativity in the halfcourt game as much.

[3ball]

From "Jordan Rules":

Defenses are not going to let me get to the basket like I used to. Everyone’s going to make me take the outside shot. When Detroit started knocking me on my ass, everyone started playing me that way, so I’m not allowed the creativity in the halfcourt game as much.


MJ says he was guarded tougher than anyone else, yet he STILL led the league in scoring every year on great efficiency... :bowdown:

Furthermore, MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense that employed some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen... It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possessioin in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.





Just wanted to make sure you know that curry never had the kind of space Mj had. Imagine him in the 90's with all that space......


When you respond to my posts, your only option is to make things up - everyone can see that the paint is open on every play and that today's player doesn't face the crowded lanes like previous eras... But you're like a 3rd grader: "no i'm not".... "yes you are".... "no i'm not".... "yes you are".... That's your arguing technique.

But here's the reality - I can post 170 gifs from each of today's games that show a wide open paint (that's how many possessions are in a game) - in b4 your autistic ass takes this literally, and think that I would actually do that for you.
.

[3ball]

http://i64.tinypic.com/2qb7me0.jpg



MJ abided by Kareem's philosophy - MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense that employed some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen... It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possession in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.

[fpliii]

http://i65.tinypic.com/6hmds4.jpg

[3ball]

http://i65.tinypic.com/6hmds4.jpg


MJ abided by Hakeem's teamwork philosophy - MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense that employed some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen... It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possession in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.

[ShawkFactory]

MJ abided by Hakeem's teamwork philosophy - MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense that employed some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen... It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possession in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.
Holy shit you are such a f@ggit :lol

[fpliii]

http://i67.tinypic.com/mkve3r.jpg

[3ball]

http://i67.tinypic.com/mkve3r.jpg



MJ abided by Russell's defensive philosophy - according to Greg Popovich, MJ is the standard for 2-way play:

[INDENT]"[I](Kawhi) has the ability to do what a Michael Jordan did at both ends, and I don

[ralph_i_el]

MJ abided by Hakeem's teamwork philosophy - MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense that employed some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen... It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possession in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.

Holy shit you ignorant mother****er. LeBron was playing without his only two teammates who are good 3 point shooters. He didn't have the spacing that you made this thread about. He held the ball because the Cavs only hope was to slow the game down as much as possible, and make sure the Warriors don't run them out of the building in transition.

When you're playing a basketball game, higher amounts of possessions benefits the better/more talented team, because it decreases the variance of the result. The Cavs were trying to steal games by keeping the score low.

Hence LeBron shooting a low %. The team wasn't working to get people open, they were trying to run out possessions as much as possible while still getting a shot.

You're either:
1. Willfully ignorant
2. Really stupid
3. A person who didn't actually watch the finals.

It's impossible for a team to win a championship trying to play a high-pace offense with Dellevadova, Shumpert, and JR smith as your guards. That's an undrafted white point guard, and two guards who were given away for nothing by one of the worst teams in the league. How exactly were the cavs going to run an "Equal Opportunity offense" with these guys?

And by the way, lets dead this "MJ ran an equal opportunity offense" bullshit. He was leading the league in USG% every season. His own coach and teammates said that it was a struggle to get him to stop breaking out of the offense all the time to go 1-on-1. He chucked his time to a 1-9 playoff record before he got legendary support.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7b/58/44/7b58444ed5f9ae339890b66efe26e2c5.jpg

[GIF REACTION]

It ain't an equal opportunity if it includes James Jones and Delly

Lmao

[ShawkFactory]

Holy shit you ignorant mother****er. LeBron was playing without his only two teammates who are good 3 point shooters. He didn't have the spacing that you made this thread about. He held the ball because the Cavs only hope was to slow the game down as much as possible, and make sure the Warriors don't run them out of the building in transition.

When you're playing a basketball game, higher amounts of possessions benefits the better/more talented team, because it decreases the variance of the result. The Cavs were trying to steal games by keeping the score low.

Hence LeBron shooting a low %. The team wasn't working to get people open, they were trying to run out possessions as much as possible while still getting a shot.

You're either:
1. Willfully ignorant
2. Really stupid
3. A person who didn't actually watch the finals.

It's impossible for a team to win a championship trying to play a high-pace offense with Dellevadova, Shumpert, and JR smith as your guards. That's an undrafted white point guard, and two guards who were given away for nothing by one of the worst teams in the league. How exactly were the cavs going to run an "Equal Opportunity offense" with these guys?

And by the way, lets dead this "MJ ran an equal opportunity offense" bullshit. He was leading the league in USG% every season. His own coach and teammates said that it was a struggle to get him to stop breaking out of the offense all the time to go 1-on-1. He chucked his time to a 1-9 playoff record before he got legendary support.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7b/58/44/7b58444ed5f9ae339890b66efe26e2c5.jpg
Option 4. Trolling...

All of what you said has been said to him before. It's in one ear and out the other.

[ralph_i_el]

Option 4. Trolling...

All of what you said has been said to him before. It's in one ear and out the other.
True :(

[3ball]

Holy shit you ignorant mother****er. LeBron was playing without his only two teammates who are good 3 point shooters. He didn't have the spacing that you made this thread about.




You're in amazing denial - everyone saw Lebron enjoy the most secluded clearouts IN HISTORY:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif


Lebron enjoyed more spacing than anyone in the history of the game - no one in history got these kinds of clearouts over and over.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ says he was guarded tougher than anyone else, yet he STILL led the league in scoring every year on great efficiency... :bowdown:

Furthermore, MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense that employed some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen... It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possessioin in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.



When you respond to my posts, your only option is to make things up - everyone can see that the paint is open on every play and that today's player doesn't face the crowded lanes like previous eras... But you're like a 3rd grader: "no i'm not".... "yes you are".... "no i'm not".... "yes you are".... That's your arguing technique.

But here's the reality - I can post 170 gifs from each of today's games that show a wide open paint (that's how many possessions are in a game) - in b4 your autistic ass takes this literally, and think that I would actually do that for you.
.
Curry never had space like that, imagine what he'd do to the 90's. Mj given all that space could only manage to do what's fairly routine for Steph with defense all over him once....

[ralph_i_el]

You're in amazing denial - everyone saw Lebron enjoy the most secluded clearouts IN HISTORY:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif


Lebron enjoyed more spacing than anyone in the history of the game - no one in history got these kinds of clearouts over and over.
Guys are standing 2 yards off their man and watching LeBron. Shut the **** up.

[sdot_thadon]

You're in amazing denial - everyone saw Lebron enjoy the most secluded clearouts IN HISTORY:


Lebron enjoyed more spacing than anyone in the history of the game - no one in history got these kinds of clearouts over and over.



No More Spectators On The Floor With Nba`s New Jordan Rule
November 15, 1987|By Sam Smith.

........This season, some say, they`re going after Jordan with the NBA rulebook.
There`s a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession.

Officially it`s Section 32 Paragraph 15, but around the league it`s getting to be known as "the Michael Jordan rule."......



"the Michael Jordan rule"


"the Michael Jordan rule"

You don't say...:biggums:

[3ball]

ridiculous denial itt

[SpanishACB]

your mom has incredible spacing between the legs

[ShawkFactory]

Guys are standing 2 yards off their man and watching LeBron. Shut the **** up.
Its amazing how heavily every single one of the defenders is cheating and ready to jump into action should Lebron beat his man.

They aren't even paying attention to their men :lol

[3ball]

November 15, 1987|By Sam Smith.

There`s a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession.


Exactly - the rules in previous eras enforced no spacing by banning clearouts - as you said, the rules didn't allow teams to place 3 guys behind the 3-point line away from the ball.

However, putting 3 guys behind the 3-point line is legal today and happens on virtually every play - every play has 3 guys behind the 3-point line - but this was illegal for most of MJ's career, starting in 1987.

Even before the rule banning clearouts in previous eras, clearouts were rarely used... Occasionally, teams would position 3+ players behind the 3-point line for isolation purposes just like today's game, but those type of clearout plays were considered gimmicks and they occurred once or twice per game, many times not at all.

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.
.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


Its amazing how heavily every single one of the defenders is cheating and ready to jump into action should Lebron beat his man.



Piping hot ignorance above ^^^^

In previous eras, those defenders wouldn't even BE on the weakside - they would be on the strongside, and therefore closer to help on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/1Y-xzB.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-06-2015/yu7DqT.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/4zBlRb.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-08-2015/YLL71A.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2015/Gqsz_a.gif


Night and day - Lebron sees open space and open paint when he catches the ball on the elbow, while MJ sees BODIES and a packed paint.

Lebron has shooters spacing the weakside to take defenders away from the strongside, whereas MJ didn't get weakside spacing, so all 10 players were bunched up on the strongside and therefore close to help.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Exactly - the rules in previous eras enforced no spacing by banning clearouts - as you said, the rules didn't allow teams to place 3 guys behind the 3-point line away from the ball.

However, putting 3 guys behind the 3-point line is legal today and happens on virtually every play - every play has 3 guys behind the 3-point line - but this was illegal for most of MJ's career, starting in 1987.

Even before the rule banning clearouts in previous eras, clearouts were rarely used... Occasionally, teams would position 3+ players behind the 3-point line for isolation purposes just like today's game, but those type of clearout plays were considered gimmicks and they occurred once or twice per game, many times not at all.

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.
.
So, you mean to tell me you missed out on the whole part where it's called:

the Michael Jordan rule
?

[ShawkFactory]

Piping hot ignorance above ^^^^

In previous eras, those defenders wouldn't even BE on the weakside - they would be on the strongside, and therefore closer to help on strongside action:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2015/Gqsz_a.gif


Night and day - Lebron sees open space and open paint when he catches the ball on the elbow, while MJ sees BODIES and a packed paint.

Lebron has shooters spacing the weakside to take defenders away from the strongside, whereas MJ didn't get weakside spacing, so all 10 players were bunched up on the strongside and therefore close to help.
.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You picked the ONE out of 6 gifs that wasn't exactly what I described

[3ball]

jokers itt

[3ball]

You picked the ONE out of 6 gifs that wasn't exactly what I described


I didn't want to re-post all 6 gifs, but they all show the same thing - Lebron is alone on the strongside, with all 4 help defenders furthest away on the weakside.

The gifs couldn't be clearer - Lebron sees open space and open paint when he catches the ball on the elbow, while MJ sees BODIES and a packed paint.

Lebron has shooters spacing the weakside to take defenders away from the strongside, whereas MJ didn't get weakside spacing, so all 10 players were bunched up on the strongside and therefore close to help.

[3ball]

So, you mean to tell me you missed out on the whole part where it's called: the Michael Jordan Rule

?
That's what Sam Smith called it - that wasn't the rule's name.. And clearouts were rarely used back then - watch any game from the 80's, and you'll see 95% of possessions don't have players standing behind the 3-point line - this is a fact - the rule addressed a rarely-used play.

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.

You ethered yourself and don't even know it - you posted a rule that banned clearouts for most of MJ's career - that's it - end of story - clearouts were illegal during MJ's career, whereas they are used on virtually every single play in today's game.

.

[3ball]

He held the ball because the Cavs only hope was to slow the game down as much as possible, and make sure the Warriors don't run them out of the building in transition.. Hence LeBron shooting a low %.


Holding the ball a long time isn't an excuse for shooting poorly - that's the dumbest thing I've heard from a Lebron fan..

The 1993 Finals played at a slower pace (89.7) than the 2015 Finals (90.3), yet MJ still shot 51% against incessant double-teams.

Accept the reality - the Cavs win if Lebron shoots better - you can't get past this fact.. Better efficiency from Lebron results in a Cavs victory.





And by the way, lets dead this "MJ ran an equal opportunity offense" bullshit. His own coach and teammates said that it was a struggle to get him to stop breaking out of the offense all the time to go 1-on-1..


Once MJ adjusted to the triangle, the Bulls had some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen - the Bulls' 6 championships and goat teamwork occurred WHILE Jordan led the league in scoring.. MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense... This is a FACT.

It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possession in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.





He chucked his time to a 1-9 playoff record before he got legendary support.


You mean Pippen???... Jordan 3-peated with just one HOF in Pippen, which is less than:

HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen
HOF Shaq
HOF Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi


So it's very clear that Jordan 3-peated with less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Lebron or Duncan.





The team wasn't working to get people open, they were trying to run out possessions as much as possible while still getting a shot.


Lebron's high volume controlled pace... But MJ added good efficiency to the high volume.. However, the real holy grail of basketball skill is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - the high volume must be achieved without diminishing teammates' statistics so the team can reach it's ceiling and be a championship team.

Only 2 guys have reached the holy grail of basketball skill by shooting well at high volume WHILE WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP (25+ shots per game while shooting 45%+ fg in playoffs) - MJ did it four times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995)..

In MJ's case, he averaged an amazing 25.1 shot attempts in the playoffs on 49% FOR HIS CAREER.. When you compare his per 100 stats to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts
.

[ralph_i_el]

Holding the ball a long time isn't an excuse for shooting poorly - that's the dumbest thing I've heard from a Lebron fan..

The 1993 Finals played at a slower pace (89.7) than the 2015 Finals (90.3), yet MJ still shot 51% against incessant double-teams.

Accept the reality - the Cavs win if Lebron shoots better - you can't get past this fact.. Better efficiency from Lebron results in a Cavs victory.



Once MJ adjusted to the triangle, the Bulls had some of the best teamwork the NBA has ever seen - the Bulls' 6 championships and goat teamwork occurred WHILE Jordan led the league in scoring.. MJ achieved most of his scoring championships within an equal-opportunity offense... This is a FACT.

It takes great skill to be scoring champ while your team plays with goat chemistry - fortunately, MJ's low time-of-possession, off-ball style allowed him to do this.

Otoh, Lebron's time of possession in the 2015 Finals was 12.0 minutes or 50% higher than the regular season leader (John Wall's 8.3 minutes)... It's impossible for a team to win a championship with one player monopolizing the ball like that, which proves that Lebron's style was designed more to stat-pad then win.



You mean Pippen???... Jordan 3-peated with just one HOF in Pippen, which is less than:

HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen
HOF Shaq
HOF Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi


So it's very clear that Jordan 3-peated with less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Lebron or Duncan.



Lebron's high volume controlled pace... But MJ added good efficiency to the high volume.. However, the real holy grail of basketball skill is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - the high volume must be achieved without diminishing teammates' statistics so the team can reach it's ceiling and be a championship team.

Only 2 guys have reached the holy grail of basketball skill by shooting well at high volume WHILE WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP (25+ shots per game while shooting 45%+ fg in playoffs) - MJ did it four times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995)..

In MJ's case, he averaged an amazing 25.1 shot attempts in the playoffs on 49%.. When you compare his per 100 stats to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts


1. The cavs can only control have the pace. They got the pace down to 90 against the team with the highest pace, which means their marginal pace must have been extremely low. Playing at the low pace by holding the ball meant that LeBron wasn't getting easy that you get from playing in a team concept. Look at his ****ing guards. Who was going to create shots for LeBron on this team? :facepalm With Love and Kyrie out they had the least overall talent of any team I have ever seen in the finals.

2. You count over the hill Ray Allen for LeBron and don't count Rodman for MJ. What does 38 year old Ray Allen bring to the table that prime Steve Kerr didn't?

3. I'm not a LeBron fan. I dislike him just as much as I dislike MJ and Kobe.

[3ball]

1. The cavs can only control half the pace. They got the pace down to 90 against the team with the highest pace, which means their marginal pace must have been extremely low.


This is exactly what the Bulls did - the Suns had the highest pace with the best offense, and the Bulls slowed them down.

Your excuses for Lebron's poor shooting are the most desperate and delusional that I've ever seen.





Playing at the low pace by holding the ball meant that LeBron wasn't getting easy looks that you get from playing in a team concept.


You're making yourself look bad - everyone knows that holding the ball and slow pace isn't an excuse for poor shooting!!!!... You aren't going to convince anyone otherwise!!!!

Lebron got incessant clearouts every game - you can't get easier than that.. Also, he was double-teamed 18 times the entire Finals - that's 3 times per game - compare that with MJ getting doubled 10+ times in a single quarter, as a standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

The 1993 Finals had a slower pace than the 2015 Finals, yet MJ shot 51% - and that's without clearouts and WITH far more double-teams.





2. You count over the hill Ray Allen for LeBron and don't count Rodman for MJ.


That's why I only used Jordan's first 3-peat... Jordan three-peated from 1991-1993 with only 1 HOF, which is less than Magic, Bird, Lebron and Duncan needed.

The 538 rankings show that Jordan's 1991 and 1993 supporting casts rank near the bottom, lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 cast.. Therefore, MJ won with less than Lebron ever won with - MJ was capable of winning with less.





3. I'm not a LeBron fan. I dislike him just as much as I dislike MJ and Kobe.


Horseshit... You defend Lebron so vehemently, that you're willing to say and believe things that aren't true:

You said the slow pace was the reason for Lebron's low efficiency!!!

You said Lebron didn't enjoy spacing, when everyone knows he enjoyed the most secluded clearouts in history!!!... Additionally, everyone knows that ALL PLAYERS enjoy great spacing in today's game!!

[ralph_i_el]

This is exactly what the Bulls did - the Suns had the highest pace with the best offense, and the Bulls slowed them down.

Your excuses for Lebron's poor shooting are the most desperate and delusional that I've ever seen.



You're making yourself look bad - everyone knows that holding the ball and slow pace isn't an excuse for poor shooting!!!!... You aren't going to convince anyone otherwise!!!!

Lebron got incessant clearouts every game - you can't get easier than that.. Also, he was double-teamed 18 times the entire Finals - that's 3 times per game - compare that with MJ getting doubled 10+ times in a single quarter, as a standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

The 1993 Finals had a slower pace than the 2015 Finals, yet MJ shot 51% - and that's without clearouts and WITH far more double-teams.



That's why I only used Jordan's first 3-peat... Jordan three-peated from 1991-1993 with only 1 HOF, which is less than Magic, Bird, Lebron and Duncan needed.

The 538 rankings show that Jordan's 1991 and 1993 supporting casts rank near the bottom, lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 cast.. Therefore, MJ won with less than Lebron ever won with - MJ was capable of winning with less.



Horseshit... You defend Lebron so vehemently, that you're willing to say and believe things that aren't true:

You said the slow pace was the reason for Lebron's low efficiency!!!

You said Lebron didn't enjoy spacing, when everyone knows he enjoyed the most secluded clearouts in history!!!... Additionally, everyone knows that ALL PLAYERS enjoy great spacing in today's game!!


You either didn't watch the finals, are an idiot, or a troll. Maybe all 3


I'm such a Bron stan that I'm in other threads say that he'll be a sub 20 ppg role player within 4-5 years :rolleyes:

I'm a Wizards fan. Wizards fans hate LeBron more than any other group of fans in the league.

[sdot_thadon]

That's what Sam Smith called it - that wasn't the rule's name.. And clearouts were rarely used back then - watch any game from the 80's, and you'll see 95% of possessions don't have players standing behind the 3-point line - this is a fact - the rule addressed a rarely-used play.

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.

You ethered yourself and don't even know it - you posted a rule that banned clearouts for most of MJ's career - that's it - end of story - clearouts were illegal during MJ's career, whereas they are used on virtually every single play in today's game.

.
So, again they made a rule for a rarely used play? Sounds pretty legit sir. Again you said Mj didn't get those sort of clearouts, apparently he did.....to the point a rule needed to address it. I could care less if that's the norm now, just exposing your lying ass for saying it didn't happen back then when it obviously did. Furthermore the rule didn't ban clearouts moron, it banned them being created in that specific manner. Smith didn't name it anything, he said the word around the league is calling it that. I'll take someone who covered the sport when it happened over a delusional fan who didn't.

[pastis]

http://i65.tinypic.com/24l0osi.jpg



:applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[3ball]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
MJ was the biggest off-ball scorer in history - so teams had to worry about MJ when he was off-ball more than anyone, ever..

MJ > Dirk by a mile.... Take what Dirk did in 2011 - that was "Jordanesque"
.

[ShawkFactory]

Horseshit... You defend Lebron so vehemently, that you're willing to say and believe things that aren't true:

You said the slow pace was the reason for Lebron's low efficiency!!!

You said Lebron didn't enjoy spacing, when everyone knows he enjoyed the most secluded clearouts in history!!!... Additionally, everyone knows that ALL PLAYERS enjoy great spacing in today's game!!
This f@ggot quoted me for something I didn't say :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

So, again they made a rule for a rarely used play?


Yes... Rules are made all the time to cover instances that are seldom.

Watch any game from the 80's, and you'll see 95% of possessions don't have players standing behind the 3-point line - this is a fact - the rule addressed a rarely-used play.

Whereas EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.





you said Mj didn't get those sort of clearouts..... so just exposing your lying ass for saying it didn't happen back then


You can't read - that's not what I said - I said players RARELY got those kind of clearouts, which is accurate.

Otoh, every single possession in today's game shows 3+ players behind the 3-point line - coaches have developed many different ways to position players behind the line for maximum spacing and freedom of movement.





Furthermore the rule didn't ban clearouts moron, it banned them being created in that specific manner.


The rule banned any clearout where 3+ players are behind the 3-point line away from the ball - that's most types of clearouts.

Here's the bottom line - most possessions in the 80's didn't have players behind the 3-point line, whereas every single possession in today's game has 3+ players behind the line - today's era has crazy spacing that helps players, and previous era didn't... end of story

[Hey Yo]

Holding the ball a long time isn't an excuse for shooting poorly - that's the dumbest thing I've heard from a Lebron fan..

The 1993 Finals played at a slower pace (89.7) than the 2015 Finals (90.3), yet MJ still shot 51% against incessant double-teams.

Accept the reality - the Cavs win if Lebron shoots better - you can't get past this fact.. Better efficiency from Lebron results in a Cavs victory.
Bulls slowed the pace down due to PHX being the highest scoring team in the league and then picked apart their 18th league ranked defense.

Cavs did the same by slowing the pace down but didn't have the luxury of facing the 18th ranked D. Plus MJ didn't have to play w/o Pippen and Grant.

Could you imagine MJ / Bulls having to replace those 2 and major minutes with the likes of:

Rodney McCray, Trent Tucker, Stacy King, Scott Williams, Darrell Walker, Will Perdue....

Wonder how much "equal opportunity" MJ would allow his teammates??

[3ball]

Bulls slowed the pace down due to PHX being the highest scoring team in the league


Stopped reading right there - if the beginning and foundation of your post is compete BS, then why should I bother read the rest

Accept the reality - the Cavs win if Lebron shoots better - you can't get past this fact.. Better efficiency from Lebron results in a Cavs victory.

[Hey Yo]

Stopped reading right there - if the beginning and foundation of your post is compete BS, then why should I bother read the rest

Accept the reality - the Cavs win if Lebron shoots better - you can't get past this fact.. Better efficiency from Lebron results in a Cavs victory.
So which team was more inclined to slow the pace down.....the highest scoring team in the league against the 2nd best defense in the league or the 15th highest scoring against the 18th ranked defense?

LOL @ using Rodney McCray, Trent Tucker, Stacy King, Scott Williams, Darrell Walker, Will Perdue....to make up for losing Pippen and Grant.

[3ball]

LOL @ using Rodney McCray, Trent Tucker, Stacy King, Scott Williams, Darrell Walker, Will Perdue....to make up for losing Pippen and Grant.


The supporting cast doesn't matter if Lebron can win 2 games by shooting 39%.. Obviously, if he shot 50% like MJ, he would've won the series..

Also, MJ won with less than Lebron ever did - MJ's 1991 and 1993 supporting casts are ranked near the bottom of the 538 rankings - they're ranked lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves MJ won with less.

[oarabbus]

curry > mj

finally 3ball talks some sense.

[3ball]

Furthermore the rule didn't ban clearouts moron, it banned them being created in that specific manner.


The rule banned any clearout where 3+ players are behind the 3-point line away from the ball - that's most types of clearouts.

Here are the facts - most possessions in the 80's didn't have players behind the 3-point line, whereas every possession in today's game has 3+ players behind the line - today's era has crazy spacing that helps players, and previous era didn't... end of story

[retaxis]

Here is 3balls 8k post summed up in 3 words "Jordan is good"

[Hey Yo]

The supporting cast doesn't matter if Lebron can win 2 games by shooting 39%.. Obviously, if he shot 50% like MJ, he would've won the series..

Also, MJ won with less than Lebron ever did - MJ's 1991 and 1993 supporting casts are ranked near the bottom of the 538 rankings - they're ranked lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which proves MJ won with less.
Supporting cast does matter.

MJ shot 40% against the NYK (#1 ranked D) in the ECF. If he only has Pippen for a combined 49mins the first 2 games (then out for the rest of the series) and no Grant...MJ shoots worse than 40% ( by having to take more forced FGA to try to pickup the scoring and MORE of a defensive load) and highly likely Bulls don't even GET to the Finals.

LOL @ supporting casts don't matter.


:cletus:

[Hey Yo]

https://wanderingdawgs.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/20150410day-35-buddy-holly-32.jpg

[gin17]

Prime AI would feast in this league

[3ball]

MJ shot 40% against the NYK (#1 ranked D) in the ECF - he loses without Pippen and Grant


That's my point - if MJ didn't have Pippen and Grant against the Knicks, he couldn't have won shooting 40%...

He would've needed to much better, maybe 45% or more... Lebron's 2015 Finals is no different - he needed to shoot 45% or better to win.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

why is curry supposed to be penalized for something he can't control?

[3ball]

Without the 3-point line, we can shave 6 ppg of Curry's average.

[Dr.J4ever]

The rule banned any clearout where 3+ players are behind the 3-point line away from the ball - that's most types of clearouts.

Here are the facts - most possessions in the 80's didn't have players behind the 3-point line, whereas every possession in today's game has 3+ players behind the line - today's era has crazy spacing that helps players, and previous era didn't... end of story

This is what I told you before(clear outs existed in the 80s), but since I couldn't find the video evidence, you totally dismissed it. Of course, eventually I found the evidence you were looking for quite by accident one day while I was watching Dr.J highlights on YT.

Then you said, it happened but it rarely happened. Of course, even before I found the clip on YT, I told you it rarely happened. I saw the 80s live, guys, and just to fair, on 3ball's side, it rarely happened when 3 guys would be above the 3 point arc. 3ball is correct. It was kind of a gimmick, but by the time I left to study outside the US in 1986, things may have changed because the 1987 rule discussed in this thread happened.

Frankly, that rule is something I wasn't aware of. Clear outs must have increased after 1986 then.

[3ball]

it (clearouts) rarely happened when 3 guys would be above the 3 point arc. 3ball is correct. It was kind of a gimmick, but by the time I left to study outside the US in 1986, things may have changed because the 1987 rule discussed in this thread happened.

Frankly, that rule (banning clearouts) is something I wasn't aware of. Clear outs must have increased after 1986 then.


You mean ELIMINATED - the rule banned clearouts in 1987... So for most of MJ's career, clearouts were banned.

And before that, they were rare anyway, like you said - in the 80's, most possessions didn't have players behind the 3-point line spacing the floor.

But in today's game, every single possession has 3+ players behind the line to space the floor - it's a massive change from previous eras that is immediately noticrable.. Today's era has crazy spacing that helps players, and previous era didn't.

[sdot_thadon]

This is what I told you before(clear outs existed in the 80s), but since I couldn't find the video evidence, you totally dismissed it. Of course, eventually I found the evidence you were looking for quite by accident one day while I was watching Dr.J highlights on YT.

Then you said, it happened but it rarely happened. Of course, even before I found the clip on YT, I told you it rarely happened. I saw the 80s live, guys, and just to fair, on 3ball's side, it rarely happened when 3 guys would be above the 3 point arc. 3ball is correct. It was kind of a gimmick, but by the time I left to study outside the US in 1986, things may have changed because the 1987 rule discussed in this thread happened.

Frankly, that rule is something I wasn't aware of. Clear outs must have increased after 1986 then.
Got ya, the problem never was how often. 3ball only deals in extremes such as never or always and most of the time that doesn't cut it as truth. When you say never that means no evidence should exist to the contrary and if it does he needs to state so and be honest.

[3ball]

Got ya, the problem never was how often. 3ball only deals in extremes such as never or always and most of the time that doesn't cut it as truth. When you say never that means no evidence should exist to the contrary and if it does he needs to state so and be honest.
Who cares - the dispute and/or misunderstanding is over now - we all know that most possessions in the 80's didn't have players behind the 3-point line spacing the floor.

But in today's game, every single possession has 3+ players behind the line to space the floor - it's a massive change from previous eras that is immediately noticeable.. Today's era has crazy spacing that helps players, and previous era didn't.

[Dr.J4ever]

You mean ELIMINATED - the rule banned clearouts in 1987... So for most of MJ's career, clearouts were banned.

And before that, they were rare anyway, like you said - in the 80's, most possessions didn't have players behind the 3-point line spacing the floor.

But in today's game, every single possession has 3+ players behind the line to space the floor - it's a massive change from previous eras that is immediately noticrable.. Today's era has crazy spacing that helps players, and previous era didn't.

What I meant was if they made a rule banning it, I'm thinking clear outs may have started increasing around 1986, thereby prompting rule makers to ban it.. I can't say for sure, because I didn't get to watch too many NBA games between 1986-1990.

There's no doubt that half court defenses were more packed in during the 80s, but there were more man to man defenses as well. Defenses were on the move when they encountered motion offenses, and so unlike today, you couldn't position a big or any defender for that matter in a space to defend a space(the very definition of a zone)without defending a man. They were USUALLY, but not all the time, following their own men, and were less inclined to zone up. There were of course many hard double teams, but tbf to the modern game, this is different to what they do today(as in with floods as you like to call them).

These debates are incredibly nuanced though. Lots of experts can come up with different takes, and at the end of the day, both styles had their advantages and disadvantages.

[3ball]

Without Pippen and Grant, MJ shoots worse than 40% ( by having to take more forced FGA to try to pickup the scoring and MORE of a defensive load)


MJ's playoff stats & efficiency were excellent without Pippen/Grant:

Jordan 85'-87' playoffs: 35.5 ppg.. 6.3 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 1.5 bpg.. 25.7 fga.. 45.5% fg.. 56.0 ts.. 117 ortg.. 27.4 PER


MJ's stats without Pippen and Grant are goat
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[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

http://lookingforamerica.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Nba-Basketball-Court-Dimensions-300x300.jpg


They were USUALLY, but not all the time, following their own men



^^^ Not true... When an offensive player in today's game is outside the paint (including behind the 3-point line), his defender can sag off an unlimited amount - except when the paint gets in the way... And as the diagram shows, almost nowhere on the 3-point arc can a defender sag off and not eventually meet the paint - when the defender meets the paint, they can dip into the paint for 3 seconds... This is the same as previous eras - defenders could sag off into adjacent zones, which included being allowed to dip into the paint for 3 seconds when sagging off 3-point shooters.

Additionally, when sagging off corner/sideline 3-point shooters, previous era defenders could paint-camp "with no time limits" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown above.. This is seen in footage - defenders routinely paint-camped in the outside lane.. Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.

Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras... The only scenario where today's defenders can sag off their man MORE than previous eras is with flooding, where the defender floods from outside the paint on one side, to outside the paint on the other side.. Flooding is the only extra freedom today's defenders have with regards to playing AWAY from their man.





unlike today, you couldn't position a big or any defender in a space to defend a space (the very definition of a zone) without defending a man.


This is false inside the paint.. Defenders in previous eras could paint-camp when their man was within 3 feet of either side of the paint, which means a defender could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.. That would constitute guarding a space.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement.

Unlike the aforementioned zone qualities of paint-camping, "armslength" is the exact opposite of a zone - infact, "armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Nonetheless, this strict, no-zone policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.





There were of course many hard double teams, but tbf to the modern game, this is different to what they do today (as in with floods).


The flooding tactic merely attempts to make today's concentration of strongside defenders equivalent to the un-spaced courts of previous eras.

Also, if big men could still paint-camp under the rim (while out of "armslength" of their man), that would be preferable to today's flooding, which requires the big man to leave the rim unprotected and contest guards outside the paint - extra rotations are necessary since the weakside is left a man down.

Paint camping has ALWAYS been a more equitable way to defend the court, since it doesn't leave the rim unprotected or require big men to contest guards on the perimeter, nor does it leave the weakside a man down or require extra rotations.





There's no doubt that half court defenses were more packed in during the 80s, but there was more man to man defenses as well. Defenses were on the move when they encountered motion offenses


In today's game, defenders are more spread out and must cover more ground, so they're on the move more than previous eras - they must recover to 3-point shooters and come OFF shooters to help in the paint, which defenders in previous eras didn't have to do.

Also, today's defenders are more spread out and therefore must move more when the ball is swung - this is a physical fact.. This "on the move" idea is another myth you guys created just like the "clearout era" myth that I've debunked.

Ultimately, we have a stat that measures how hard it is to score.. It's called league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) and it's been stable for 30 years.. It's ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

[3ball]

without Pippen and Grant, it's highly likely Bulls don't beat the Knicks or make the Finals.


Do you realize that MJ is the only guy that has EVER shot well at the high volumes required to carry teams (i.e. Lebron's 27 fga in 2015 playoffs and 33 fga in Finals)??... Therefore, MJ is the only guy with a chance to actually win when a team needs to be carried, like the 2015 Finals.

MJ didn't shoot well against the Knicks in 1993, but that was an anomaly.. For MJ's playoff career, he averaged 25.1 fga on 49% - no one else comes close to this high volume and efficiency.

The stats show the effects of MJ's volume - he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency.. So imagine Lebron and Kobe DOING MORE - that's MJ:


Per 100 Possession stats in playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts