Why was Jordan so much more efficient than every athletic player in today's game?

[JohnMax]

Jordan didn't have a jumpshot in his early years so you can't use that as an excuse.

[The_Pharcyde]

because he was a better basketball player than them

[Rocketswin2013]

GOATbrook reminds me of '89 Jordan right now.

Guy had a 43/9/8 game on 64 TS% last game and it's just...GOATbrook GOATing. Not even really mentioned.

[FKAri]

Did you know the average measured c0ck size in the 1984 NBA Draft Combine was 5inches?

It was just an all around less alpha era.

[LoneyROY7]

Illegal defense honestly.

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ not having a jumpshot from early on is a bit of a myth. He was a more than decent jumpshooter inside 15ft, of course he became far more prolific later on, but it was never a liability.

[SHAQisGOAT]

MJ not having a jumpshot from early on is a bit of a myth. He was a more than decent jumpshooter inside 15ft, of course he became far more prolific later on, but it was never a liability.

Very true, more than just a BIT... He already had a deadly jumpshot when close to the paint, and was shooting around 85% from the FT-line on lots of attempts.

He was also an athletic freak with one of the quickest 1st steps ever, jumped out of the gym and had terrific finishing skills, was a beast on the fastbreak, great footwork already (on both ends), great instincts (on both ends), high IQ, handles, passing capabilities...

[inclinerator]

because he played in a weaker era

[Kawhi]

ISH, where not being a good three point shooter is equal to having no jumpshot whatsoever.

[Sarcastic]

because he played in a weaker era

Then all the other players should have been able to put up similar stats. Why didn't they?

[3ball]

Jordan didn't have a jumpshot in his early years so you can't use that as an excuse.
From MJ's rookie season, his midrange jumpshot was pretty good..

Sure - there are quotes saying he couldn't shoot early in his career - but this is hyperbole..

A massive chunk of his 37 ppg was jumpshots - he probably hit more jumpshots in 1987 than anyone else

[ClipperRevival]

Because he was the GOAT.

[ralph_i_el]

shitty fastbreak no-D 80's era inflated stats

[3ball]

MJ did a ton of JJ Redick spot-up shooting

[3ball]

some misunderstanding itt

[3ball]

shitty fastbreak no-D 80's era inflated stats


This is a very shallow understanding of the game.

We have a stat that measures how hard it is to score.. It's called league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) and it's been stable for 30 years.. It's ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

[3ball]

Btw, MJ had the highest shooting volume of all time, specifically because he shot WELL at that volume... He averaged an amazing 25.1 shot attempts on 49% in the playoffs.. FOR HIS CAREER.

When you compare his per 100 stats to other wings (playoffs stats shown below), it's clear that he did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency - so imagine Lebron or Kobe DOING MORE - that's MJ:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts


High volume comes in 3 forms - we know that sheer high volume can control pace, as we saw with Lebron in 2015 playoffs.. Of course, MJ added high efficiency to the high volume... But the real holy grail of basketball skill is shooting well at high volume while winning championships because the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - the high volume must be achieved without diminishing teammates' statistics so the team can reach it's ceiling and be a championship team..

Only 2 guys have reached the holy grail of basketball skill by shooting well at high volume WHILE WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP (25+ shots per game while shooting 45%+ fg in playoffs) - MJ did it four times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995)..
.

[AlphaWolf24]

Then all the other players should have been able to put up similar stats. Why didn't they?


Far more players scored 25PPG and shot over 50% in MJ's era...

[3ball]

Far more players scored 25PPG and shot over 50% in MJ's era...


^^^^ This is factually incorrect - here's the number of 25+ scorers in each era:

1984-1998: 87
2001-2015: 92
.

[ralph_i_el]

This is a very shallow understanding of the game.

We have a stat that measures how hard it is to score.. It's called league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) and it's been stable for 30 years.. It's ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

naw man. You don't think it is like it be, but it do


you're ignoring the implications man

[3ball]

naw man. You don't think it is like it be, but it do


you're ignoring the implications man
I'm not ignoring shit - those are all the facts.

You're the one looking at a blue sky, and trying to make it pink

You beta, passive-aggressive, ignoramus - yo're too afraid to say what you really think... weak ass

[Fallen Angel]

Jordan played for with Dean Smith for multiple years

Today's players player with inferior coaches for less years

[3ball]

Jordan played for with Dean Smith for multiple years

Today's players player with inferior coaches for less years


It's clear that MJ did exactly what the other wings did, but just MORE OF IT.. His efficiency was the same as other wings, but he simply produced far more at that efficiency - so imagine Lebron or Kobe DOING MORE - that's MJ:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts

[plowking]

Then all the other players should have been able to put up similar stats. Why didn't they?

They did. Wing players were far more efficient back in Jordan's time.

Jordan's first year in the league, the top 8 scorers were wing players. 6 of them shot above 50%.
The next year, 7 out of the top 9 were wing players, and 5 of them shot 50% or above.
The year after, again, 7 out of the top 9 were wing players, with 5 again shooting 50% or better.

Then the talent started watering down at the SG and SF positions for a while, though you still had Drexler, Bird, Aguire, Scott shooting above 50% while being in the top 15 scoring wise.

Wings just had it easier in terms of scoring back in the day. There is a reason that wings today are generally less efficient. They take more shots now, and maybe trend towards more points, but it is harder to score today. Defensive rules have made it tougher, not easier.

[plowking]

^^^^ This is factually incorrect - here's the number of 25+ scorers in each era:

1984-1998: 87
2001-2015: 92
.

Way to ignore the other part of his post. 50%.

[ralph_i_el]

I'm not ignoring shit - those are all the facts.

You're the one looking at a blue sky, and trying to make it pink

You beta, passive-aggressive, ignoramus - yo're too afraid to say what you really think... weak ass

You slurp another dude on the internet for entertainment all day
















































but I'm beta:applause:

[3ball]

You slurp another dude on the internet for entertainment all day

but I'm beta:applause:


the facts are what they are - go back and look at your posts - you beat around the bush because you're too scared to say what you mean... it's pathetic

[ShawkFactory]

You slurp another dude on the internet for entertainment all day






but I'm beta:applause:
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[3ball]

Way to ignore the other part of his post. 50%.
another passive-aggressive bitch who is scared to engage, so he beats around the bush.

you're worse than ralphy

[plowking]

another passive-aggressive bitch who is scared to engage, so he beats around the bush.

you're worse than ralphy

No one likes reading copy and pasted essays f@gnuts. You can't be concise then people won't listen. It is why you're considered a loser on here.

[3ball]

No one likes reading copy and pasted essays f@gnuts. You can't be concise then people won't listen. It is why you're considered a loser on here.


Heck, I make goddamn PICTURE books for you idiots on here and you still aren't smart enough to understand what I'm saying

[Angel Face]

He's one of the most gifted athletes in NBA history at the same time one of the most fundamentally sound player. You can't say the same for most athletic wings today.

[HurricaneKid]

I'm not ignoring shit - those are all the facts.

You're the one looking at a blue sky, and trying to make it pink



In 86-87 MJ scored a remarkable 37 points per game. There were 39 players that year that scored 20ppg+.

In 12-13 that number was down to 9.

Its not that scoring per possession is down. Its that defenses are allowed to put more resources into slowing down the opposition's best player/players and force "others" to beat them.

But I've pointed this out to you dozens of times without any recognition of the actual FACTS.

[AlphaWolf24]

^^^^ This is factually incorrect - here's the number of 25+ scorers in each era:

1984-1998: 87
2001-2015: 92
.




This is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during MJ's era(1985-1998).

Michael Jordan - 6 times
Chris Mullen - 6 times
Adrian Dantley - 4 times
Kiki Vandewedge - 4 times
Reggie Miller - 3 times
James Worthy - 3 times
Alex English - 3 times
Dale Ellis - 3 times
Magic Johnson - 2 times
Penny Hardaway - 2 times
Kevin Johnson - 2 times
Clyde Drexler - 2 times
Cedric Ceballos - 2 times
Mark Aguirre - 2 times
Gary Payton - once
Byron Scott - once
Rolando Blackman - once
Walter Davis - once
Jeff Hornacek - once
Otis Birdsong - once
Jeff Malone - once
George Gervin - once
Drazen Petrovic - once
Reggie Lewis - once
Derek Smith - once
Scottie Pippen - once



And here is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during the KOBE era(2000-2010).

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once


So in MJ's era it was done 56 times by 26 different players.

In Kobes era, it has been done only 5 times by 5 different players.




....anytime you need more schooling on the different era's...I'm here 4 y'a....



2EZ..........next

[dunksby]

Durant is more efficient.

[plowking]

And here is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during the KOBE era(2000-2010).

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once




Dwyane Wade? Has done it twice.


EDIT: Sorry, saw you said 2001-2010.

[dhsilv]

MJ not having a jumpshot from early on is a bit of a myth. He was a more than decent jumpshooter inside 15ft, of course he became far more prolific later on, but it was never a liability.

as a rookie was he called a Dr J with a jump shot. That seems like an insult by today's standards of him, but....it was a real thing.

[dhsilv]

No one likes reading copy and pasted essays f@gnuts. You can't be concise then people won't listen. It is why you're considered a loser on here.

He's on my ignore list and I'm sure many others because when he's proven wrong he changes the topic and keeps on throwing out absurd comments.

[f0und]

no need to make it complicated. the answer is simple. because he's the GOAT. there's no special circumstance or rare alignment of stars that allowed him to dominate. he's just good as *uck at basketball. the best ever.

its like asking why Usain Bolt wins races. because he's really *ucking fast.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Way to ignore the other part of his post. 50%.

Y'all nikkas love to mention 3pointers when it serves your purpose... Then when it doesn't, just forget about it :rolleyes: :oldlol:

--> Players today shoot WAY MORE 3's... That's bound to decrease FG%, ofc. It ain't hard to tell.

And like 3ball said, there were more 25+ PPG scorers in this era.

DRtg/eFG% from recent times is more or less the same as in the 1980s... So explain the weaker defensive era, please? Actually come up with some substantial arguments, please, not just some shock-jock claims.
Maybe you can show us some footage... I just know y'all didn't see much from those days though...

Oh, and DRtg/eFG% was lower in the 1970s/1960s... Must be the GOAT defensive era, huh? Or worse offense? :confusedshrug: Maybe you can enlighten us.

As for the pace... Explain why as it decreased from the 1970s into the 1980s, ORtg/eFG% actually went up; thought that that couldn't happen :confusedshrug:
Why, as of RIGHT NOW, average league pace is higher than it was last year but ORtg/eFG% decreased? :confusedshrug:

[dhsilv]

Define efficient?

Also as other said today less people score 20 or even 25 plus. Unless you don't know what the "today" era is. If that's an issue someone I'm sure you send you to the analysis we've done here on the subject. Just don't listen to the trolls who will not site both rolling averages and real results, like they have an agenda! Horrible human being but they exist.

[dhsilv]

Y'all nikkas love to mention 3pointers when it serves your purpose... Then when it doesn't, just forget about it :rolleyes: :oldlol:

--> Players today shoot WAY MORE 3's... That's bound to decrease FG%, ofc. It ain't hard to tell.

And like 3ball said, there were more 25+ PPG scorers in this era.

DRtg/eFG% from recent times is more or less the same as in the 1980s... So explain the weaker defensive era, please? Actually come up with some substantial arguments, please, not just some shock-jock claims.
Maybe you can show us some footage... I just know y'all didn't see much from those days though...

Oh, and DRtg/eFG% was lower in the 1970s/1960s... Must be the GOAT defensive era, huh? Or worse offense? :confusedshrug: Maybe you can enlighten us.

As for the pace... Explain why as it decreased from the 1970s into the 1980s, ORtg/eFG% actually went up; thought that that couldn't happen :confusedshrug:
Why, as of RIGHT NOW, average league pace is higher than it was last year but ORtg/eFG% decreased? :confusedshrug:

Dude you need to get that bold virus off your computer. I'd love to read what you're saying :)

[PsychoBe]

because he was a better player? i don't get this thread.

reported.

[BarberSchool]

Truly Elite reflexes.
Elite hand/eye coordination.
Elite bball IQ.

[3ball]

In 86-87 MJ scored a remarkable 37 points per game.


The guy who was 2nd in PPG was 8 points back... That's more than any other year, by far, except Wilt's years.

So MJ's 37 ppg wasn't a function of everyone scoring a lot - it was a function of his superiority to everyone, just like he would be today..

There isn't a single player in today's league that can double-pump from the FT line with ease, and still be an elite shooter with great fundamentals, footwork and repertoire.





There were 39 players that year that scored 20ppg+.

In 12-13 that number was down to 9.

Its that defenses are allowed to put more resources into slowing down the opposition's best player/players and force "others" to beat them.



You made up the bolded - the facts are that pace was much higher in the 80's because teams didn't slow down the offense to seek good 3-point looks.

Teams only took 2-pointers, so they settled for more contested shots and therefore ran less offense - they just ran up and down and took contested 2 after contested 2.

But in the 90's, the pace slowed down dramatically, as teams realized they could take better advantage of the defensive rules - by the mid-90's, things like pace, scoring and ORtg was LESS than today's game and there were less high scorers BY FAR...

MJ's second 3-peat came during this time when scoring, pace and ORtg was lower than today's game.





Its not that scoring per possession is down.


Exactly - scoring per possession was the same!!...

We have a stat that measures how hard it is to score.. It's called league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) and it's been stable for 30 years.. It's ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).