Why does Duncan get a pass for winning bronze in his prime?

[stalkerforlife]

Every player in NBA history, with the exception of Kobe Bryant, is excused from their failures.

How can you possibly defend Duncan winning bronze for team USA in his prime? You can't. He embarrassed our nation and quite frankly, I don't consider him American and I have no clue how he played for our great nation.

THAT is a HUGE reason why Kobe is ahead of him all time. Kobe is 2nd or 3rd and Duncan is 4, 5, or 6.

[dhsilv]

I'm not sure Duncan is the best basketball player of his era. He's just the best NBA player of his era.

[ShaqTwizzle]

That team was poorly put together.
Was run by ball-dominant ISO guards like Iverson & Marbury and had a bunch of really young guys who couldn't shoot.
I also thought the coaching staff did a poor job overall. Don't remember if they were really involved enough or if they sat back expecting their superior talent to get it done.

http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1447964905355.png

Just a super young team with few experienced big names that were naturally good team players with good portability.
Wade, Bron & Melo were all Rook's I believe.

Not sure how much blame Duncan really deserves for them failing.
Clearly the team had major issues unrelated to him.

[Smoke117]

Every player in NBA history, with the exception of Kobe Bryant, is excused from their failures.

How can you possibly defend Duncan winning bronze for team USA in his prime? You can't. He embarrassed our nation and quite frankly, I don't consider him American and I have no clue how he played for our great nation.

THAT is a HUGE reason why Kobe is ahead of him all time. Kobe is 2nd or 3rd and Duncan is 4, 5, or 6.


It's funny how you talked all that mess of shit but than ranked Duncan higher than anyone does all time. Kobe 2nd or 3rd all time? Literally no case. There is no single argument ANYONE, not even Kobe's biggest stans can make for Kobe over Kareem. (I'm just using him because Jordan and Kareem to me are clearly the two greatest players of all time) Even you, who doesn't know anything about basketball can't seriously put Kobe over Kareem...that's just ludicrous.

[red1]

Every player in NBA history, with the exception of Kobe Bryant, is excused from their failures.

How can you possibly defend Duncan winning bronze for team USA in his prime? You can't. He embarrassed our nation and quite frankly, I don't consider him American and I have no clue how he played for our great nation.

THAT is a HUGE reason why Kobe is ahead of him all time. Kobe is 2nd or 3rd and Duncan is 4, 5, or 6.
http://media.giphy.com/media/12Tt4U7hlXXaRa/giphy.gif

[Spurs m8]

Because not everyone's a sad sack of shit like OP

They also have lives

[stalkerforlife]

It's funny how you talked all that mess of shit but than ranked Duncan higher than anyone does all time. Kobe 2nd or 3rd all time? Literally no case. There is no single argument ANYONE, not even Kobe's biggest stans can make for Kobe over Kareem. (I'm just using him because Jordan and Kareem to me are clearly the two greatest players of all time)

Kobe won b2b titles without a top 85 player of all time as his second option in the toughest conference in NBA history.

Kareem won all his titles with a top 10 player in Magic and a top 15 player in Oscar Robertson.

Go to bed.

[Lebron23]

He's Tim Duncan. He never get blames only his teammates. And besides the fact that was a very poorly constructed team, and Larry Brown benched the 4 NBA rookies.

[Smoke117]

Kobe won b2b titles without a top 85 player of all time as his second option in the toughest conference in NBA history.

Kareem won all his titles with a top 10 player in Magic and a top 15 player in Oscar Robertson.

Go to bed.

Yeah...I'm the one that looks like an idiot.

https://media.giphy.com/media/LVIbmaUwpRJ1C/giphy.gif

[warriorfan]

AI was the vet of the team they were probably playing blackjack all night before the games

[Lebron23]

Yeah...I'm the one that looks like an idiot.

https://media.giphy.com/media/LVIbmaUwpRJ1C/giphy.gif

:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[AnaheimLakers24]

He was busy having sex with dudes to care about gold

[kennethgriffin]

kobe is the closest thing to jordan.. and thus.. probably the 2nd best player ever

but his resume is between 4-6th best


i'd round it out to top 5 bare minimum


bbr HOF monitor score


1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
2. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Kobe Bryant 1.0000

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No Pop, no Ws

And additionally to winning bronze him and his team got battered by Timmys own teammate in Manu who carried his team to Gold. Which is honestly one of the more impressive feats in basketball

[dhsilv]

kobe is the closest thing to jordan.. and thus.. probably the 2nd best player ever

but his resume is between 4-6th best


i'd round it out to top 5 bare minimum


bbr HOF monitor score


1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
2. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Kobe Bryant 1.0000

A metric that uses all star appearances....great for the "hall" terrible for a top anything list, lol.

[kennethgriffin]

A metric that uses all star appearances....great for the "hall" terrible for a top anything list, lol.


to be fair.. kobes only not deserved 2 appearances while losing out on 1 due to a lock out


so 1 extra allstar game would probably contribute 0.00001 towards his overall score


thus making your point obsolete

[DMAVS41]

That team kind of sucks tbh...even moreso when you think about the international game.

team doesn't have one shooter and the perimeter defense is pretty bad outside of Marion.

[FKAri]

No Pop, no Ws

And additionally to winning bronze him and his team got battered by Timmys own teammate in Manu who carried his team to Gold. Which is honestly one of the more impressive feats in basketball

Manu game winner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aepOa9iVFb4

[dhsilv]

to be fair.. kobes only not deserved 2 appearances while losing out on 1 due to a lock out


so 1 extra allstar game would probably contribute 0.00001 towards his overall score


thus making your point obsolete

well drop those two and compare him to duncan? The math is pretty easy, I"ve run it a few times just to see the ending decimals. Where do they finish after the adjustment?

The point really is that they favor the wrong things for a real discussion. If you were to do a model for best player, I'd think you'd use VOPR or BPM along with all nba and titles and then MPV's. Everything else seems a bit weak. Oh PER too. I hate just using one advanced metric, you need a second to kinda "balance it". Now how the formula would work is beyond me, but those are the metrics that seem to match perception at the top or are more so there.

VORP sucks due to only going to 74 so we'd need WS to do all time, but you again get the point.

[warriorfan]

He was busy having sex with dudes to care about gold

:lol

[dhsilv]

That team kind of sucks tbh...even moreso when you think about the international game.

team doesn't have one shooter and the perimeter defense is pretty bad outside of Marion.

Just so I put it out there before I gush over Duncan later. He really did SUCK for team USA in his own right. He couldn't avoid fouls and just didn't do well. The international rules were an issue for him or the refs hate him (and I don't buy that one).

[dhsilv]

:lol

Why the face? This board is about the most pro man on man sex board on the internet. I was clicked on a gay porno video link and saw the messages. They were 1000x straighter than comments here about the top tier players. I mean I get ish is mostly a gay community but still....this board is gay even by that standard.

[stalkerforlife]

He didn't have a SINGLE BLOCK in 8 games.

:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

Just so I put it out there before I gush over Duncan later. He really did SUCK for team USA in his own right. He couldn't avoid fouls and just didn't do well. The international rules were an issue for him or the refs hate him (and I don't buy that one).

True...he really struggled with the international rules, but regardless, that is a horribly constructed team in a vacuum...especially for Olympic play.

[kennethgriffin]

well drop those two and compare him to duncan? The math is pretty easy, I"ve run it a few times just to see the ending decimals. Where do they finish after the adjustment?

The point really is that they favor the wrong things for a real discussion. If you were to do a model for best player, I'd think you'd use VOPR or BPM along with all nba and titles and then MPV's. Everything else seems a bit weak. Oh PER too. I hate just using one advanced metric, you need a second to kinda "balance it". Now how the formula would work is beyond me, but those are the metrics that seem to match perception at the top or are more so there.

VORP sucks due to only going to 74 so we'd need WS to do all time, but you again get the point.


duncan didnt deserve his allstar selection last year though

13/9 is a crap average

he got it on his rep and team record due to being overly stacked from everyones pay cuts

so duncan has 14 legit appearences. kobe has 15 ( 17 overall )

[DMAVS41]

well drop those two and compare him to duncan? The math is pretty easy, I"ve run it a few times just to see the ending decimals. Where do they finish after the adjustment?

The point really is that they favor the wrong things for a real discussion. If you were to do a model for best player, I'd think you'd use VOPR or BPM along with all nba and titles and then MPV's. Everything else seems a bit weak. Oh PER too. I hate just using one advanced metric, you need a second to kinda "balance it". Now how the formula would work is beyond me, but those are the metrics that seem to match perception at the top or are more so there.

VORP sucks due to only going to 74 so we'd need WS to do all time, but you again get the point.

That box score stuff is never going to capture the impact of many players though. And BPM is a derivative of box score metrics...it's not useless or anything, but it is going to favor certain styles of players over others.

Honestly, I'd use PER and RAPM over BPM...

Regardless...none of it is meant to tell you who the better player really was/is. At most they are really designed to be guideposts for destroying non sensical claims.

And even with the best metrics...you still have to compare like with like as much as possible. Comparing players that don't play similar roles at all on most of these metrics is really a waste of time.

Depends on the claim, but if it's a reasonable claim...I don't see this stuff as cementing much.

[dhsilv]

duncan didnt deserve his allstar selection last year though

13/9 is a crap average

he got it on his rep and team record due to being overly stacked from everyones pay cuts

so duncan has 14 legit appearences. kobe has 15 ( 17 overall )

incorrect. his all star was worthy. maybe learn basketball stats? I"m not sure what's wrong with you. Thought that profile pic implies you don't know about tooth brushing. That's an issue you should address first.

[dhsilv]

That box score stuff is never going to capture the impact of many players though. And BPM is a derivative of box score metrics...it's not useless or anything, but it is going to favor certain styles of players over others.

Honestly, I'd use PER and RAPM over BPM...

Regardless...none of it is meant to tell you who the better player really was/is. At most they are really designed to be guideposts for destroying non sensical claims.

And even with the best metrics...you still have to compare like with like as much as possible. Comparing players that don't play similar roles at all on most of these metrics is really a waste of time.

Depends on the claim, but if it's a reasonable claim...I don't see this stuff as cementing much.

I feel BPM captures defense in ways PER can't (well given) but given it is from a regression from RAPM which is so NEW we can't use it for any meaningful analysis but on NEW players, it's again the best we have for historical information.

Given we're talking hall of fame and a single metric...I think I"m advocating a better method than what is used now. I"m not saying it's perfect or remotely close.

[inclinerator]

dont u know it's not ok to criticize gays

[Mr. Jabbar]

Tim only takes credit when his team wins, not the other way around. He is better than Lebron though (big deal) and inferior to kobe (water is wet)

[stalkerforlife]

Tim only takes credit when his team wins, not the other way around. He is better than Lebron though (big deal) and inferior to kobe (water is wet)

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6d/6da22a682e4c7924a09b7ba73b5f2f5b0f7423391b56740310 a8840e899010fa.jpg

[Mr. Jabbar]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6d/6da22a682e4c7924a09b7ba73b5f2f5b0f7423391b56740310 a8840e899010fa.jpg


:lol


gotta love how "stiffler" shows that donkey whos the boss :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFW-yxe13lo

[stalkerforlife]

:lol


gotta love how "stiffler" shows that donkey whos the boss :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFW-yxe13lo

lmao one of the GOAT scenes.

[DMAVS41]

I feel BPM captures defense in ways PER can't (well given) but given it is from a regression from RAPM which is so NEW we can't use it for any meaningful analysis but on NEW players, it's again the best we have for historical information.

Given we're talking hall of fame and a single metric...I think I"m advocating a better method than what is used now. I"m not saying it's perfect or remotely close.


Well yea...it's not worthless....like I said.

I'm just saying there are certain players that are better represented in the stats...especially box score derivative stats...than others.

I agree with your broad take on this...I'd just want, in any discussion, to point out that BPM, like any metric, is not designed to tell you who the better player is...nor is it good for comparing players not playing similar roles.

[sportjames23]

I'm not sure Duncan is the best basketball player of his era. He's just the best NBA player of his era.


Since the NBA is the pinnacle of basketball, shouldn't the best NBA player be the best basketball player, too?

[TheBigVeto]

Every player in NBA history, with the exception of Kobe Bryant, is excused from their failures.

How can you possibly defend Duncan winning bronze for team USA in his prime? You can't. He embarrassed our nation and quite frankly, I don't consider him American and I have no clue how he played for our great nation.

THAT is a HUGE reason why Kobe is ahead of him all time. Kobe is 2nd or 3rd and Duncan is 4, 5, or 6.

He doesn't get a pass for that.

But he's still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe.

[Magic 32]

Not a good team.

Still gets too much of a pass.

[dhsilv]

Since the NBA is the pinnacle of basketball, shouldn't the best NBA player be the best basketball player, too?

People become specialists at things created by the NBA rules. When the rules dramatically are different, not everyone is going to easily transition the same. Duncan certainly is adaptable and has been, but clearly he couldn't adapt that quickly to the international rules. He really struggled with it.

Or maybe he just had a bad run?

[Gileraracer]

Because he had LeBronze in his team :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

:lol


gotta love how "stiffler" shows that donkey whos the boss :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFW-yxe13lo


i cant ****in believe they cut the scene off right when it was about to go into the sound of silence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4

[dhsilv]

Well yea...it's not worthless....like I said.

I'm just saying there are certain players that are better represented in the stats...especially box score derivative stats...than others.

I agree with your broad take on this...I'd just want, in any discussion, to point out that BPM, like any metric, is not designed to tell you who the better player is...nor is it good for comparing players not playing similar roles.

I agree with the plus minus having more power. My issues is using PER over bpm of the box score metrics. Again bpm uses the box scores but is a regression against the plus minus metrics. IMO it seems to capture defense where as PER *almost* completely seems to miss it.

Now I personally like to look at PER, WS, and VORP and looks for players who oddly seems to miss in one of the metrics or scores oddly high.

As for needing to compare similar roles, that's ideal, but to me at least outside of defensive players who don't seem to get blocks or steals and point guards that seem to do well but somehow don't get high assists they seem to compare pretty well.

So for example if we take Duncan vs Kobe, sure they have had different roles and played different positions. They however both filled the box scores as you'd expect. There might be some bias, but Duncan's absolute dominance in the box score stats seems pretty convincing to me to his superiority. Unless you define different roles differently at least.

[JohnFreeman]

Can't criticise the gays

[rmt]

No Pop, no Ws

And additionally to winning bronze him and his team got battered by Timmys own teammate in Manu who carried his team to Gold. Which is honestly one of the more impressive feats in basketball

Pop was there as an assistant coach.

This was a case of a REAL TEAM who had played together for many years playing a bunch of mostly young players (8 of them age 24 and under) thrown together to sell jerseys. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Okefor - rookie or 1st year players.

[rmt]

Someone please refresh my memory - where were KG, Jermaine O'Neal, Kobe, Kidd, etc? Maybe the terrorist threat played a role?

[Prime_Shaq]

That team was poorly put together.
Was run by ball-dominant ISO guards like Iverson & Marbury and had a bunch of really young guys who couldn't shoot.
I also thought the coaching staff did a poor job overall. Don't remember if they were really involved enough or if they sat back expecting their superior talent to get it done.

http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1447964905355.png

Just a super young team with few experienced big names that were naturally good team players with good portability.
Wade, Bron & Melo were all Rook's I believe.

Not sure how much blame Duncan really deserves for them failing.
Clearly the team had major issues unrelated to him.
Marbury,Okafor,Jefferson... Yup...

[ImKobe]

Prime Duncan had prime AI, young Lebron, Wade, Melo, athletic prime Marion and couldn't even make it to the gold medal game

shows how much he's depended on Pop all his career.

and lol at saying the young guys had no experience like that's an excuse..Duncan was supposed to be the leader and I thought he himself carried the whole Spurs team to a title in 03, now the team isn't good enough to beat a bunch of international scrubs?

[ShawkFactory]

Prime Duncan had prime AI, young Lebron, Wade, Melo, athletic prime Marion and couldn't even make it to the gold medal game

shows how much he's depended on Pop all his career.

and lol at saying the young guys had no experience like that's an excuse..Duncan was supposed to be the leader and I thought he himself carried the whole Spurs team to a title in 03, now the team isn't good enough to beat a bunch of international scrubs?
He absolutely carried his team to the title in 2003.

[T_L_P]

He deserves blame. He was in his prime and didn't really play well, and he couldn't adjust to Fiba rules.

That said, there was obvious ref bias, especially in the last game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV3xGflsz2o

21:30
44:50

How can any honest ref call those fouls? Duncan did nothing wrong. There were two more bogus fouls which I will try and find later and point out.

Also, Stalker, where are you getting those stats? He had 11 blks in the 8 games, which lead the team (nobody else had more than 5). He was second in scoring behind AI but shot 20% higher from the field. He had 24 more Rebounds than anyone else, and he was 3rd in Assists. The team was so poorly constructed and, to be frank, Tim may have been their best shooter. If you watch the games you'll see teams double-teaming Duncan all day long because they knew the outside guys couldn't hit a shot.

Again, he came up short, he played passive, but it wasn't like he completely crumbled or something. He just didn't carry the team to victory. He didn't play much worse than most Team USA stars; he just didn't get to play with any (AI was the only other All-NBAer as Garnett was too tired to play after getting out of the first round for the time in his career and the rest of them were scared of terrorists).

Anyway, I'm glad it played out like I did. I don't care about Team USA winning because I'm not an American. I doubt Duncan would still be playing today if he went to the 2008/2012 Olympic Games and played in the other international tournaments.

Edit: Pop was on that staff, Hamtaro, or did you forget?

[Doranku]

The truth is he gets a pass because nobody outside of San Antonio cares about Tim Duncan. He does't have a fanbase like Kobe or LeBron and as a result he doesn't have as many detractors either.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

He had 11 blks in the 8 games, which lead the team (nobody else had more than 5). He was second in scoring behind AI but shot 20% higher from the field. He had 24 more Rebounds than anyone else, and he was 3rd in Assists. The team was so poorly constructed and, to be frank, Tim may have been their best shooter. If you watch the games you'll see teams double-teaming Duncan all day long because they knew the outside guys couldn't hit a shot.

AI was the only other All-NBAer

:biggums:

If anything all of this strengthens Duncan's case over other all-time greats like Kobe rather than bring it down.

Just out of curiosity, how many All-NBA players played on the other teams throughout the history of international play for team U.S. and how did they do in comparison to Duncan's squad? I'm guessing I already know the answer to this, but just want stans to eat shit.

:mad:

[feyki]

Kobe fans always create troll thread . Pathetic .

[DMAVS41]

For starters...he doesn't get a "pass" because it's brought up often in Duncan threads.

He also didn't play terribly. It's more than fair to say he didn't play great, but he wasn't awful or something.

And as I touched on before...people don't care as much because that team just kind of sucked. It was redundant players all over the place, very poor defensively outside of Marion, Odom, Duncan, Okafor (again...redundant) and had a bunch of ball dominant offensive players that can't shoot.

It's about as bad a team in terms of fit that you could come up with for playing international ball around star NBA players.

[pastis]

For starters...he doesn't get a "pass" because it's brought up often in Duncan threads.

He also didn't play terribly. It's more than fair to say he didn't play great, but he wasn't awful or something.

And as I touched on before...people don't care as much because that team just kind of sucked. It was redundant players all over the place, very poor defensively outside of Marion, Odom, Duncan, Okafor (again...redundant) and had a bunch of ball dominant offensive players that can't shoot.

It's about as bad a team in terms of fit that you could come up with for playing international ball around star NBA players.

as a german, those statements are hurting:lol . "redundant" players like okafor etc.....damn we just had dirk nowitzki over nearly 2 decades as a nba calibre player. we would have been so thankful to have those "redundant" players for a World Cup :lol :lol

[DMAVS41]

as a german, those statements are hurting:lol . "redundant" players like okafor etc.....damn we just had dirk nowitzki over nearly 2 decades as a nba calibre player. we would have been so thankful to have those "redundant" players for a World Cup :lol :lol

haha...true.

i'd have taken those "redundant" players on the Mavs as well, but Dirk/Okafor makes a lot more sense than Duncan/Okafor

[game3524]

The truth is he gets a pass because nobody outside of San Antonio cares about Tim Duncan. He does't have a fanbase like Kobe or LeBron and as a result he doesn't have as many detractors either.

This.

[ShawkFactory]

The truth is he gets a pass because nobody outside of San Antonio cares about Tim Duncan. He does't have a fanbase like Kobe or LeBron and as a result he doesn't have as many detractors either.
Just the way he likes it

[iznogood]

No Pop, no Ws

Pop was assistant coach on that team.

Duncan had a solid tournament and was easily USA's best player. Opposing teams sacrificed a lot to guard Duncan, playing mostly 2-3 zone and often having 2 men on Duncan before he even touched the ball. Still Duncan made the right play every time he touched the ball. There's not much more he could do. I see some people suggesting he didn't adjust to Fiba rules, but I haven't seen any of that. Some of the fouls that were called against him were bad calls and came at the wrong time, benching him or preventing him to play tougher.

I suggest everybody to watch again the game against Argentina, where Argentina starts guarding man to man, but gets destroyed on Duncan who scores on every possession, even when Argentina brings help. After 5 minutes they realise they can not contain Duncan man to man and go to zone, baiting perimeter players to shoot.

[Hey Yo]

Someone please refresh my memory - where were KG, Jermaine O'Neal, Kobe, Kidd, etc? Maybe the terrorist threat played a role?
Kobe wasn't able to play for the U.S due to wearing an ankle monitor and not being allowed to leave the country at the time due to his raping in Colorado.

[Euroleague]

Every player in NBA history, with the exception of Kobe Bryant, is excused from their failures.

How can you possibly defend Duncan winning bronze for team USA in his prime? You can't. He embarrassed our nation and quite frankly, I don't consider him American and I have no clue how he played for our great nation.

THAT is a HUGE reason why Kobe is ahead of him all time. Kobe is 2nd or 3rd and Duncan is 4, 5, or 6.

Because FIBA changed the rules starting with the 2008 Olympics to allow Team USA to play under NBA rules.

Travels endlessly allowed, palming endlessly allowed, NBA style reffing (can't even breathe on a USA player without getting a foul called against you), and USA being allowed to play the opponent who still had to play with FIBA rules in every game (the opponent could be fouled endlessly by USA and not get a whistle, no travels or palming allowed by the opponent).

When Duncan played, USA still had to play under the same rules as every other country.

You can say whatever you want, but that's why he gets a pass. Everyone with even one iota of basketball knowledge knows that the refs have helped USA in every single game they played since 2007. Something that was not true in 2004, where USA got reffed the same as any other team.

[rmt]

Kobe wasn't able to play for the U.S due to wearing an ankle monitor and not being allowed to leave the country at the time due to his raping in Colorado.

LOL - well, that's am iron-clad excuse.

[Euroleague]

No Pop, no Ws

And additionally to winning bronze him and his team got battered by Timmys own teammate in Manu who carried his team to Gold. Which is honestly one of the more impressive feats in basketball

Scola was the best player on the 2004 Argentina team.

That team also included several other players that made major contributions, and saying Manu "carried" that team is ludicrous.

Even guys like Sanchez and Montecchia were better offensive creators on that team than Manu was.

NBA only fans are such pricks with how they never want to give the proper credit to anything, unless it suits NBA marketing.

[Springsteen]

The truth is he gets a pass because nobody outside of San Antonio cares about Tim Duncan. He does't have a fanbase like Kobe or LeBron and as a result he doesn't have as many detractors either.

Maybe he should've called out his teammate about being fat and lazy on national TV after raping a woman, he'd get some more detractors then. :oldlol:

[Euroleague]

Since the NBA is the pinnacle of basketball, shouldn't the best NBA player be the best basketball player, too?

No.

Euroleague > FIBA EuroBasket > NBA > Eurocup Basketball > top tier national leagues of Europe > FIBA World Cup > Olympics basketball > mid tier national leagues of Europe > FIBA Americas League / Brazilian League > the rest of the crap out there like FIBA Americas Championship, Australian League, Argentine League, AfroBasket, elite second national divisions of Europe, NBA D-League > FIBA Europe league, low tier national leagues of Europe, Africa Champions Cup, other top Latin American national leagues > NCAA Division I, FIBA Asian Championship, FIBA Asia Champions League, Chinese League, other Asian leagues, etc.

The NBA is not the pinnacle of basketball. It's the pinnacle of bullshit hype and marketing.

[Euroleague]

Pop was there as an assistant coach.

This was a case of a REAL TEAM who had played together for many years playing a bunch of mostly young players (8 of them age 24 and under) thrown together to sell jerseys. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Okefor - rookie or 1st year players.

In 2004, USA lost to.........

Italy, Puerto Rico, Lithuania, and Argentina.

Stop pretending they lost to just one team.

[PsychoBe]

In 2004, USA lost to.........

Italy, Puerto Rico, Lithuania, and Argentina.

Stop pretending they lost to just one team.

where are you from

[Euroleague]

He deserves blame. He was in his prime and didn't really play well, and he couldn't adjust to Fiba rules.

That said, there was obvious ref bias, especially in the last game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV3xGflsz2o

21:30
44:50

How can any honest ref call those fouls? Duncan did nothing wrong. There were two more bogus fouls which I will try and find later and point out.

Also, Stalker, where are you getting those stats? He had 11 blks in the 8 games, which lead the team (nobody else had more than 5). He was second in scoring behind AI but shot 20% higher from the field. He had 24 more Rebounds than anyone else, and he was 3rd in Assists. The team was so poorly constructed and, to be frank, Tim may have been their best shooter. If you watch the games you'll see teams double-teaming Duncan all day long because they knew the outside guys couldn't hit a shot.

Again, he came up short, he played passive, but it wasn't like he completely crumbled or something. He just didn't carry the team to victory. He didn't play much worse than most Team USA stars; he just didn't get to play with any (AI was the only other All-NBAer as Garnett was too tired to play after getting out of the first round for the time in his career and the rest of them were scared of terrorists).

Anyway, I'm glad it played out like I did. I don't care about Team USA winning because I'm not an American. I doubt Duncan would still be playing today if he went to the 2008/2012 Olympic Games and played in the other international tournaments.

Edit: Pop was on that staff, Hamtaro, or did you forget?

Those are normal calls under FIBA rules genius. FIBA changed the rules starting in 2007 to NBA rules in all games Team USA plays - because they could lost 3 tournaments in a row (2002, 2004, 2006) having to play under FIBA rules (the rules where the refs don't pick and choose that NBA players get special treatment).

[Euroleague]

Pop was assistant coach on that team.

Duncan had a solid tournament and was easily USA's best player. Opposing teams sacrificed a lot to guard Duncan, playing mostly 2-3 zone and often having 2 men on Duncan before he even touched the ball. Still Duncan made the right play every time he touched the ball. There's not much more he could do. I see some people suggesting he didn't adjust to Fiba rules, but I haven't seen any of that. Some of the fouls that were called against him were bad calls and came at the wrong time, benching him or preventing him to play tougher.

I suggest everybody to watch again the game against Argentina, where Argentina starts guarding man to man, but gets destroyed on Duncan who scores on every possession, even when Argentina brings help. After 5 minutes they realize they can not contain Duncan man to man and go to zone, baiting perimeter players to shoot.

Under actual FIBA rules, none of those calls against Duncan are wrong. FIBA is not candy ass ***** basketball for pansies like the NBA is.

It's only Team USA since 2007 that gets treated like the babies and bitches they all are, since they could no longer compete against other top countries playing under 50/50 reffing.

Prior to 2007, USA still had to play under actual REAL basketball rules that MEN play under, and not the JOKE that they play under now in FIBA, or in NBA.

[FKAri]

where are you from

IP trace says Arkansas

So he's either a hick or using a paid proxy service to post on ISH :lol

[Dbrog]

Because no one cares about the Olympics? Seriously why invest in this? You gonna slam people for not being national champions in college? :oldlol:

Besides, NBA wasn't even sending their A squad like in the past 10 years.

[DMAVS41]

Euroleague is actually speaking a lot of truth here.

I don't think the reffing was blatantly cheating for the US after 07, but the reffing in 04 and since has been different.

However, the NBA was much tougher back in 04 as well and players didn't get the soft ass calls they have gotten since the rules changes.

And some of the calls in the 04 games were soft as hell...even for NBA standards currently. Duncan just obviously played a way that didn't work that well under those rules. Combine that with that shitty roster and you get a bronze medal.

[Smoke117]

Better question: Why does your mother get a pass for not aborting you?

[iznogood]

Those are normal calls under FIBA rules genius. FIBA changed the rules starting in 2007 to NBA rules in all games Team USA plays - because they could lost 3 tournaments in a row (2002, 2004, 2006) having to play under FIBA rules (the rules where the refs don't pick and choose that NBA players get special treatment).

Do you realise that what you're saying about how FIBA rules are tougher goes against what Duncan was called for? I don't think think you even watched the video, because Duncan gets called for 2 very soft contacts.

You could argue that there was some holding at 21:30, but this is a very soft call. The problem I have with this call is that Oberto didn't even try to fight through. If he did and Duncan still held him, than I have no problem with this, but he didn't.

The call at 44:35 is even softer. Duncan doesn't hip check and doesn't use his arm to push Herrmann. Maybe he uses his left arm a little, but it's a standard basketball play. Also notice that Herman uses his arms as Duncan ducks in and beats him to the spot.

Both of these calls are extremely soft. The real problem here being that the criteria was not even and that none of the opposing bigs got called for this type of plays, even though Argentinian bigs used a lot of holding and checking to keep Duncan and Odom off the boards (again, I don't mind if they play physical, but than they have let both teams play physical to same extent).

Again, I don't have a problem with the calls if you can demonstrate that they were being called equally. But in Duncan's case they weren't.

However, I agree with you fully about how FIBA changed it's rules and allowed more travelling and to some point carrying. But I would have to argue that the rules became looser in Eurobaskets and WC as well. You might argue that the Olympics are being calledd the loosest and I would also agree.

[T_L_P]

Pop was assistant coach on that team.

Duncan had a solid tournament and was easily USA's best player. Opposing teams sacrificed a lot to guard Duncan, playing mostly 2-3 zone and often having 2 men on Duncan before he even touched the ball. Still Duncan made the right play every time he touched the ball. There's not much more he could do. I see some people suggesting he didn't adjust to Fiba rules, but I haven't seen any of that. Some of the fouls that were called against him were bad calls and came at the wrong time, benching him or preventing him to play tougher.

I suggest everybody to watch again the game against Argentina, where Argentina starts guarding man to man, but gets destroyed on Duncan who scores on every possession, even when Argentina brings help. After 5 minutes they realise they can not contain Duncan man to man and go to zone, baiting perimeter players to shoot.

Good post. I doubt the people talking shit have even seen any of the games

[ShawkFactory]

Scola was the best player on the 2004 Argentina team.

That team also included several other players that made major contributions, and saying Manu "carried" that team is ludicrous.

Even guys like Sanchez and Montecchia were better offensive creators on that team than Manu was.

NBA only fans are such pricks with how they never want to give the proper credit to anything, unless it suits NBA marketing.
Trolling. As. Shit

[FKAri]

Pretty easy to crowd and double Duncan when the most dangerous perimeter threat is Marbury.

[DMAVS41]

Pretty easy to crowd and double Duncan when the most dangerous perimeter threat is Marbury.


Haha...exactly.

[dhsilv]

Those are normal calls under FIBA rules genius. FIBA changed the rules starting in 2007 to NBA rules in all games Team USA plays - because they could lost 3 tournaments in a row (2002, 2004, 2006) having to play under FIBA rules (the rules where the refs don't pick and choose that NBA players get special treatment).

In both plays if anything Socla made contact with Duncan, not the other way around. Unless there are rules in FIBA that I'm unaware of, those were just simply bad calls.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Him getting Bronze is not why he should be criticized. Him saying that he would NEVER play in an international competition again is what he should be criticized for.....

That reeks of "if you don't officiate me the way I want you to then I will take my ball and go home." And that is exactly what he did.

[VengefulAngel]

Him getting Bronze is not why he should be criticized. Him saying that he would NEVER play in an international competition again is what he should be criticized for.....

That reeks of "if you don't officiate me the way I want you to then I will take my ball and go home." And that is exactly what he did.

This so much.

[Deuce Bigalow]

TOSB

01
0.4
Bronze
08
8
Backdoor
6