CP3 is an underrated competitor

[VengefulAngel]

His intensity.:bowdown: :bowdown:

[DaOldLion]

loses to Carmelo's team by 60 on his home court in the playoffs

[VengefulAngel]

Every player always comments on either how smart or competitive Chris Paul. It's been well documented. He's always one of the first people Kobe praises for his competitiveness

It get's lost on this forum though, collectively we tend to dismiss how great he actually is.

See the idiot above.

[inclinerator]

what he's arguable the most competitive player in the game today

[MMKM]

Yep, Cp3, Mr. November...:rolleyes:

[VengefulAngel]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bird -> MJ -> Kobe/KG/Manu -> CP3 -> Westbrook

[VengefulAngel]

Bird -> MJ -> Kobe/KG/Manu -> CP3 -> Westbrook

Good list.

[inclinerator]

at 5'11 and a top 5 player in the game for the last 10 years u better be competitive

[LONGTIME]

http://sweethoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chris-paul-flopping.gif

[Goofsta Knicca]

http://sweethoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chris-paul-flopping.gif
:oldlol:

[TheBigVeto]

His intensity.:bowdown: :bowdown:

He's gotta be intense. Anybody who is hailed as a top 10 in their position but never sniffed the conference final would be intense/slightly mad.

Whether the intensity would translate to anything meaningful in the playoffs, that is the real question.

Crystal ball says no.

[warriorfan]

Yep, Cp3, Mr. November...:rolleyes:

:roll:

[Spurs m8]

For a career loser and flopper, this dude is very over-rated

[buddha]

*in the regular season.

[BarberSchool]

I want to disassemble Chris Paul.

Remove his trachea with my right hand,
then use leveraged submissions,
to tear every tendon,
in each shoulder, knee, and hip socket.

Then p!ss on his immobile body.

He has to be the all time NBA leader,
in drawing fouls while in the back court.
Little whiny Napoleon complex @ss n!cca.

[houston]

For a career loser and flopper, this dude is very over-rated


:applause: yup

[JohnFreeman]

Not really.

[Young X]

With the way people talk about CP3 you would think he was an average player or a borderline all-star like Joe Johnson or something.

How can you watch him play and think he's not one of the top competitors in the league? Every moment he's locked in, always trying to get that advantage over his opponent (even if it means doing it the wrong way), you almost never see him smile on the court.

He's one of the top competitors in the game today and one of the best players to ever play his position. To say otherwise you're either an idiot or don't watch him play.

[dhsilv]

With the way people talk about CP3 you would think he was an average player or a borderline all-star like Joe Johnson or something.

How can you watch him play and think he's not one of the top competitors in the league? Every moment he's locked in, always trying to get that advantage over his opponent (even if it means doing it the wrong way), you almost never see him smile on the court.

He's one of the top competitors in the game today and one of the best players to ever play his position. To say otherwise you're either an idiot or don't watch him play.

This! His competitive spirit is both is greatest strength and possibly his greatest weakness as it doesn't go over well with his teammates.

[WorldWarriors]

He is but what happened to that killer instinct he had in NO?

[SexSymbol]

He's an overrated competitor, everybody always talks about his heart, but when it comes down to it in the playoffs, he shrinks every single time

[R.I.P.]

Can

[MMKM]

He's an overrated competitor, everybody always talks about his heart, but when it comes down to it in the playoffs, he shrinks every single time
:cheers:

[Funktion]

Him and Blake were 3/12 in the 4th including the layup at the end of the game.

[Young X]

He's an overrated competitor, everybody always talks about his heart, but when it comes down to it in the playoffs, he shrinks every single timeNOT true.

He's the only one on the Clippers that consistently shows any kind of heart and determination.

He's the only one who has the skill level to create offense when games get tight. Everybody else becomes useless and all the pressure goes to Paul to take over when that's NOT his game.

In elimination games he averages nearly 21/10/6. Look at his last 3 game 7's:

Game 7 vs. the Warriors in 2014: 22/14 with 4 steals in a win.

Game 7 vs. the Spurs this year: 27/6 on 9-13 shooting + series winning shot on one leg.

Game 7 vs. the Rockets this year: 26/10/5 with 4 steals.


No player that always shrinks in the playoffs performs like that.

[Heavincent]

Is it a coincidence that his teams have a tendency to suffer embarrassing collapses?

- blown out by 58 at home in the playoffs
- backdoor swept by Memphis
- game 5 against OKC
- blows 3-1 lead against Rockets, despite being up 20 in game 6
- clippers are known for having late game collapses. Last night was the latest example.

hmm....

He gets his efficient numbers, but it seems like he's nowhere to be found when his team shits the bed :confusedshrug: Maybe because he can't take over a game like Curry, Lebron, Durant, etc.

I know that "efficient, but not dominant" thing was a meme on ISH for a while, but it actually applies to Paul. High FG%, great assist/TO, but defenses don't fear him like they fear Stephen Curry for example. How often do you see defenses trying to get the ball out of his hands? They're perfectly content to let him dribble around.

[Young X]

Is it a coincidence that his teams have a tendency to suffer embarrassing collapses?

- blown out by 58 at home in the playoffs
- backdoor swept by Memphis
- game 5 against OKC
- blows 3-1 lead against Rockets, despite being up 20 in game 6
- clippers are known for having late game collapses. Last night was the latest example.

hmm....

He gets his numbers, but it seems like he's nowhere to be found when his team shits the bed :confusedshrug:You realize that everyone has been though those kinda failures right?

Go through Kobe, Lebron, KG, Dirk's careers and you will see similar instances.

The difference is they have rings and CP3 doesn't. That's what it comes down to. People forget chokes/bad moments when you win and people only remember the failures when you lose.

[Heavincent]

You realize that everyone has been though those kinda failures right?

Go through Kobe, Lebron, KG, Dirk's careers and you will see similar instances.

The difference is they have rings and CP3 doesn't. That's what it comes down to. People forget chokes/bad moments when you win and people only remember the failures when you lose.

The difference is Paul doesn't have memorable moments and deep playoff runs like those guys...because he's not as good. He's very good, but he's not in the Kobe, Lebron, Dirk tier.

The apex of Paul's career is a first round win over SA, something that hardly anyone will remember, because you know...it was the first round.

[VeeCee15]

CP3 is mentally weak, plays on emotion. When that's gone, his balls shrink

Curry plays with emotion, determination and extreme confidence. He doesn't get flustered...that's why he is a winner and CP3 (along with blake) cannot get past the hump.

[Young X]

The difference is Paul doesn't have memorable moments and deep playoff runs like those guys...because he's not as good. He's very good, but he's not in the Kobe, Lebron, Dirk tier.

The apex of Paul's career is a first round win over SA, something that hardly anyone will remember, because you know...it was the first round.Alot of those guys were also in better situations and played with HOF players (along with them being more dominant individually).

CP played his entire prime on very flawed teams in the toughest conference in NBA history. None of the teams he's been were expected to make deep playoff runs and get to the finals.

I don't care what round it happens in, he's shown he can have great moments/performances against the best teams in the league. There should be nobody who isn't a complete idiot that can question his competitiveness.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

CP is a great competitor, but that dimension can often be unwarranted noise.

He's had severe meltdowns in the postseason, and was eliminated by Houston last season in embarrassing fashion (a team they were favored against, and should have beat).

When he starts getting compared to Kobe, MJ, Duncan, LeBron etc., and people want to put him in THAT tier, thats when he gets overrated. He simply doesn't have the signature playoff games and series the aforementioned do.

[DMAVS41]

CP is a great competitor, but that dimension can often be unwarranted noise.

He's had severe meltdowns in the postseason, and was eliminated by Houston last season in embarrassing fashion (a team they were favored against, and should have beat).

When he starts getting compared to Kobe, MJ, Duncan, LeBron etc., and people want to put him in THAT tier, thats when he gets overrated. He simply doesn't have the signature playoff games and series the aforementioned do.

The Spurs series was pretty signature, but you are right...you have to have at least one deep run in which you dominate multiple series

Paul is one of the best players ever and one of the best points ever...I don't see how that could ever be in dispute. The question is how great...not if he is great.

But acting like he's never been on a team that should have made the conference finals is silly...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Spurs series was pretty signature, but you are right...you have to have at least one deep run in which you dominate multiple series at least.

Paul is one of the best players ever and one of the best points ever.

But acting like he's never been on a team that should have made the conference finals is silly...

Yeah, just meant in comparison to those other guys (agree with your last sentence too).

The Spurs series was awesome, and I'll probably always remember his performance in Game 7.. Then again I'm a Clipper fan.

[Young X]

But acting like he's never been on a team that should have made the conference finals is silly...Not just to make the conference finals but to get to the finals and possibly win a championship. None of CP's teams were capable of doing that.

The Clippers in 2014 were the only team Chris has been on that even had somewhat of a chance at getting there and there were still 2 better teams in the Spurs and OKC in their way.

[DMAVS41]

Not just to make the conference finals but to get to the finals and possibly win a championship. None of Paul's teams were capable of doing that.
The Clippers in 2014 were the only team that even had somewhat of a chance at getting there and their were still 2 better teams in the Spurs and OKC in their way.

This is where we get into some disagreement. Or at least an area where I think you give Paul a pass when there shouldn't for sure be one.

Now, it depends on how good you actually think Paul is.

But if a team like the 11 Mavs can win it all...then there is absolutely no reason teams like the 14 Clippers and 15 Clippers can't win it all...or at least make the finals.

When you say his teams were never capable of doing that...you are really saying Paul isn't capable of doing that with those teams.

Because I can think of plenty of guys that have upset teams in the playoffs and made runs.

So unless you place Paul much lower than me (which I doubt) I just don't see how you can say those teams were incapable of making runs. Based on what?

The only reason they lost the last 2 years was because of historic meltdowns...it's not like they got overmatched in any real way.

[Young X]

This is where we get into some disagreement. Or at least an area where I think you give Paul a pass when there shouldn't for sure be one.

Now, it depends on how good you actually think Paul is.

But if a team like the 11 Mavs can win it all...then there is absolutely no reason teams like the 14 Clippers and 15 Clippers can't win it all...or at least make the finals.

When you say his teams were never capable of doing that...you are really saying Paul isn't capable of doing that with those teams.

Because I can think of plenty of guys that have upset teams in the playoffs and made runs.

So unless you place Paul much lower than me (which I doubt) I just don't see how you can say those teams were incapable of making runs. Based on what?

The only reason they lost the last 2 years was because of historic meltdowns...it's not like they got overmatched in any real way.The Mavs didn't have any historical teams standing in their way like the Clippers do/did. Even the OKC team they faced in the WCF was clearly inferior to the 2014 version that the Clippers went up against.

Don't get me wrong, their run was very impressive but do you honestly see them getting to the finals in the 2014 and 2015 western conference?

[PsychoBe]

The Mavs didn't have any historical teams standing in their way like the Clippers do/did. Even the OKC team they faced in the WCF was clearly inferior to the 2014 version that the Clippers went up against.

Don't get me wrong, their run was very impressive but do you honestly see them getting to the finals in the 2014 and 2015 western conference?

omg i can't breathe :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

i bet dirk is smiling ear to ear that he didn't have to face the almighty 2014 houston rockets

*** outta here :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

The Mavs didn't have any historical teams standing in their way like the Clippers do/did. Even the OKC team they faced in the WCF was clearly inferior to the 2014 version that the Clippers went up against.

Don't get me wrong, their run was very impressive but do you honestly see them getting to the finals in the 2014 and 2015 western conference?

You guys lost to the Rockets...not the Warriors. So that part needs to be clear.

I don't know the answer to that...I definitely think that Mavs team in 11 gives a team like the Warriors a lot of trouble actually. I think the Warriors would win, but the way the Mavs were playing in 11? I'd never say that they had no chance.

If the Cavs could do what they did to the Warriors in the finals...the Mavs could have really given them a run. The Mavs could have really slowed the game down on offense with Dirk working out of the post (like Lebron) and then would have been able to throw the likes of Kidd, Stevenson, and Marion at Curry.

I'm not saying what would or wouldn't happen though...you are. You are the one putting limits on a team that showed no signs of being outclassed other than their two meltdowns.

I mean...I think this is why Paul takes a lot of heat here at times. You are acting like they had no chance to beat the Thunder in 14...when the only reason the Clippers weren't going home to clinch the series was one of the most awful sequences a star player has had in playoff history.

I just don't like putting limits on teams that show they are in the class of the elite every time they play...but lose because they meltdown...at least the last 2 years.

So when you say his teams weren't capable...to me...that isn't true...and basically just means Paul isn't capable of being on a team that doesn't meltdown...and I can't imagine you actually think that...I certainly don't.

Also, I don't want to derail the thread, but the 11 Heat once again get so overlooked. The 15 Warriors didn't play a team 75% as good as the 11 Heat....and ****...almost got down in a huge hole to a Cavs team maybe 50% as good as the 11 Heat. Again, Lebron choked in 11...but he did so against a team that caused it with their scheme and ability to make James uncomfortable. The 15 Warriors...even though they held James in check from an efficiency standpoint...did not make him uncomfortable on the court...and I can't imagine they would be able to do a better job while also having to deal with Wade and Bosh.

Not saying the Warriors lose for sure or something, but we can't just pretend like the Mavs didn't have something to actually say about Lebron choking...and quite frankly, the 11 Mavs match up much better against a team like the 11 Heat than the Warriors of last year did. Wade/Lebron probably just rape them to be honest...they might still win, but Green/Klay would be on the bench in foul trouble nearly every 1st qtr....and that means Curry would actually have to guard Wade at times...and that would be a blood bath often.

[Young X]

You guys lost to the Rockets...not the Warriors. So that part needs to be clear.

I don't know the answer to that...I definitely think that Mavs team in 11 gives a team like the Warriors a lot of trouble actually. I think the Warriors would win, but the way the Mavs were playing in 11? I'd never say that they had no chance.

If the Cavs could do what they did to the Warriors in the finals...the Mavs could have really given them a run. The Mavs could have really slowed the game down on offense with Dirk working out of the post (like Lebron) and then would have been able to throw the likes of Kidd, Stevenson, and Marion at Curry.

I'm not saying what would or wouldn't happen though...you are. You are the one putting limits on a team that showed no signs of being outclassed other than their two meltdowns.

I mean...I think this is why Paul takes a lot of heat here at times. You are acting like they had no chance to beat the Thunder in 14...when the only reason the Clippers weren't going him to clinch the series was one of the most awful sequences a star player has had in playoff history.

I just don't like putting limits on teams that show they are in the class of the elite every time they play...but lose because they meltdown...at least the last 2 years.

So when you say his teams weren't capable...to me...that isn't true...and basically just means Paul isn't capable of being on a team that doesn't meltdown...and I can't imagine you actually think that...I certainly don't.Just for the record I'm talking about getting to the finals. When I say "historical teams" I'm talking about the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors. Both are 2 teams that the Clippers had very little chance of getting past.

You yourself agree that the Mavs would likely lose to the Warriors. What about the 2014 Spurs?

And I'm putting a limit on a team that doesn't have any perimeter defense or anyone who can create anything offensively in tight situations besides their 5'11 PG.

Same team that loses leads and goes into huge deficits when they sit that same PG on the bench.

Same team that has no rim protection and rebounding late in games because they can't play their 34% FT shooting big man.

The Clippers are NOT in that class of championship contenders. They are way too flawed and play in too tough of a conference to be so.

[ArbitraryWater]

Just for the record I'm talking about getting to the finals. When I say "historical teams" I'm talking about the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors. Both are 2 teams that the Clippers had very little chance of getting past.

You yourself agree that the Mavs would likely lose to the Warriors. What about the 2014 Spurs?

And I'm putting a limit on a team that doesn't have any perimeter defense or anyone who can create anything offensively in tight situations besides their 5'11 PG.

Same team that loses leads and goes into huge deficits when they sit that same PG on the bench.

Same team that has no rim protection and rebounding late in games because they can't play their 34% FT shooting big man.

The Clippers are NOT in that class of championship contenders. They are way too flawed and play in too tough of a conference to be so.

except its a team that could very definitely beat championship contenders... they did JUST THAT in 2015 :biggums: then lost to an inferior squad...

and again, Paul threw away game 5 in 2014, they had that one too :confusedshrug:

I revised the officiating for that one, I had a bit more sympathy for it than when it went down.. when it went down it felt like a straight rig job, but really, the worst part of that one was Paul's late TO.

[DMAVS41]

Just for the record I'm talking about getting to the finals. When I say "historical teams" I'm talking about the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors. Both are 2 teams that the Clippers had very little chance of getting past.

You yourself agree that the Mavs would likely lose to the Warriors. What about the 2014 Spurs?

And I'm putting a limit on a team that doesn't have any perimeter defense or anyone who can create anything offensively in tight situations besides their 5'11 PG.

Same team that loses leads and goes into huge deficits when they sit that same PG on the bench.

Same team that has no rim protection and rebounding late in games because they can't play their 34% FT shooting big man.

The Clippers are NOT in that class of championship contenders. They are way too flawed and play in too tough of a conference to be so.


A few things;

1. I disagree that the Clippers could not beat the 14 Spurs and 15 Warriors. Why do you just assume this? The Clippers just got done beating the Spurs and have looked just as good or better than elite teams in playoff series until the meltdowns. Real flaws in teams show more than just losing a really tight series with meltdowns. Preventative flaws are when the team gets run even when the star or stars play well. The Clippers just don't have those man...they play well...they seem to be as good or better than anyone.

2. I'm saying I don't know what would happen. If you asked me if I thought the 11 Mavs could beat the 11 Lakers and 11 Heat...I'd call you insane midway through the 11 season...pretty sure I wrongly did call Mavs fans that.

The way the Mavs were playing in 11 in the playoffs...there is simply no current era team I've seen that I'd be terrified of. I say that they probably would have lost...just assuming a regression to the mean.

But if Dirk plays as amazing as he did in the 2nd round and WCF against the Warriors and Spurs...I like the Mavs chances because he'd be the best player on the court...and we'd have a coach/team in place to cause trouble, big trouble, for both the Warriors and Spurs.

Did you watch the 14 playoffs? Do you not remember seeing a far worse Mavs team take the Spurs to 7? Lets tap the brakes on these limits man...you tell me Dirk is going to have a 10 game stretch of 30/8/3 70% TS with all time elite clutch play? Yea...I'll take my chances against those teams because they don't have anyone that could guard Dirk one on one without getting into foul trouble...so you'd have to double...and doubling plays right into the hands of the 11 Mavs team with hot shooters everywhere. And the Warriors, specifically, would have had to go up against a defensive lineup that could really give them problems. Now, that small ball lineup would have been really tough for the Mavs because Dirk would have to play center, but I think they could slow the game down enough via their offense to set up the defense routinely enough to not get killed.

3. You often ask why Paul takes so much criticism. It's because of his fans talking about not being able to beat the Spurs and Warriors...when you guys didn't lose to them. You lost to the Thunder and Rockets...and only lost because of horrific meltdowns. Nobody would criticize the Clippers and Paul nearly as much if they had just lost in the conference finals to the Spurs or Warriors...especially not without melting down.

These flaws you see in your team certainly don't seem to impact them until the very end of games in which Paul and or Blake just stop playing real basketball and either make boneheaded plays or don't do anything to stop the team from melting down. It's just a regular season game, but we saw this yet again last night. Stars have to prevent that shit from happening...

[Young X]

except its a team that could very definitely beat championship contenders... they did JUST THAT in 2015 :biggums: then lost to an inferior squad...

and again, Paul threw away game 5 in 2014, they had that one too :confusedshrug:

I revised the officiating for that one, I had a bit more sympathy for it than when it went down.. when it went down it felt like a straight rig job, but really, the worst part of that one was Paul's late TO.Beating an elite team and being able to potentially win 16 playoff games in the playoffs are 2 different things.

The 2015 Clippers had no chance of winning 4 series in the playoffs. You can't tell me you ever felt they were capable of seriously winning it all. They would've gotten killed by the Warriors.

The Clippers up to this point are just like the Grizzlies. Tough team but way too flawed to win a title. Especially in this kinda conference.

[DMAVS41]

Beating an elite team and being able to potentially win 16 playoff games in the playoffs are 2 different things.

The 2015 Clippers had no chance of winning 4 series in the playoffs. You can't tell me you ever felt they were capable of seriously winning it all. They would've gotten killed by the Warriors.

The Clippers up to this point are just like the Grizzlies. Tough team but way too flawed to win a title. Especially in this kinda conference.

I see virtually no evidence of this unless you are saying it's a team full of players that can't avoid a meltdown...I don't think this is the case, but perhaps it is.

They would have been killed by the Warriors? Why? Paul couldn't have slowed the game down a bit and outplayed Curry in a series? That's all it would take to give them a great chance at winning.

They seem to sure play the Warriors damn close for being a much worse team. Two games they should have won already this year...and while they went 1-3 last year...they lost a very close game in which they were leading going into the 4th and got outscored by 10 late.

Just doesn't speak to a hugely overmatched team...

[ArbitraryWater]

Beating an elite team and being able to potentially win 16 playoff games in the playoffs are 2 different things.

The 2015 Clippers had no chance of winning 4 series in the playoffs. You can't tell me you ever felt they were capable of seriously winning it all. They would've gotten killed by the Warriors.

The Clippers up to this point are just like the Grizzlies. Tough team but way too flawed to win a title. Especially in this kinda conference.

That wasnt the overall feeling at the time at all, though.. after they beat the Spurs, everybody expected them to trash the Rockets (which they did, even without CP3), and get ready for a GOAT level WCF between GSW and LAC...

[DMAVS41]

That wasnt the overall feeling at the time at all, though.. after they beat the Spurs, everybody expected them to trash the Rockets (which they did, even without CP3), and get ready for a GOAT level WCF between GSW and LAC...

Yea...it's just simply disingenuous to claim they had no chance to beat the Warriors after they beat the Spurs.

Especially from a Paul fan...because the whole Warriors vs Clippers would have and will this year if they play...revolve around CP3 vs Curry

So if Paul is capable of outplaying or just equaling Curry in a series...it would go down to the wire and likely come down to the 4th qtr of a game 6 or game 7

And there is no reason to think the Clippers were so much worse that they couldn't get hot or make some big plays down the stretch of back to back games or something

Hell, the Clippers are worse this year right now and the Warriors are better...and the Clippers should have already beaten them twice. And these aren't average regular season games...these two games were played at a playoff level. And in both cases it took the Clippers giving up 4th qtr leads to lose. These teams are simply not mismatches...the warriors might be better against everyone else, but these clippers play the warriors to pretty much even (of course, ignoring the meltdowns)

[Young X]

3. You often ask why Paul takes so much criticism. It's because of his fans talking about not being able to beat the Spurs and Warriors...when you guys didn't lose to them. You lost to the Thunder and Rockets...and only lost because of horrific meltdowns. Nobody would criticize the Clippers and Paul nearly as much if they had just lost in the conference finals to the Spurs or Warriors...especially not without melting down.

These flaws you see in your team certainly don't seem to impact them until the very end of games in which Paul and or Blake just stop playing real basketball and either make boneheaded plays or don't do anything to stop the team from melting down. It's just a regular season game, but we saw this yet again last night. Stars have to prevent that shit from happening...PART of the reason those meltdowns and losses happen is because of the holes they have as a team.

Outside of CP and DJ they are terrible defensively. They let Houston score 40 in the 4th quarter of game 6 and allowed 117.5 ORtg in the last 3 games of the series. NO team capable of winning a championship does that.

Last night against the Warriors? They allowed the Warriors to score 39 points on 100+ eFG% in the 4th.

They also have no one who can do anything offensively besides CP in 4th quarters against elite defensive teams. He's their only reliable creator but he can't do it all by himself.

Their only defensive anchor has ZERO offensive game and can't even play late in games due to his FT shooting.

And their bench is completely trash. The Warriors' run yesterday started the instant CP left the game in the 3rd quarter.


I see virtually no evidence of this unless you are saying it's a team full of players that can't avoid a meltdown...I don't think this is the case, but perhaps it is.

They would have been killed by the Warriors? Why? Paul couldn't have slowed the game down a bit and outplayed Curry in a series? That's all it would take to give them a great chance at winning.

They seem to sure play the Warriors damn close for being a much worse team. Two games they should have won already this year...and while they went 1-3 last year...they lost a very close game in which they were leading going into the 4th and got outscored by 10 late.

Just doesn't speak to a hugely overmatched team...No that's not all it would take.

What about the huge difference in bench production when each teams starters leave the floor?

I don't think you realize how terrible the Clippers were last season without CP. They went -7.9 when he sat on the bench. Show me another "championship contender" that regressed that badly when a star player left the floor.

They were a 4 man team and were a horrible, horrible team outside of Paul/Redick/Griffin/Jordan.

Jamal Crawford shot below 45 TS% in the playoffs and played his usual horrible defense. Matt Barnes shot below 50 TS%. :oldlol: How the hell are they beating the Warriors with those 2 negative impact players?

There's no way in hell they would've stayed competitive with the Warriors. It would've went 5 at most. The Clippers as I've said weren't capable of winning a championship as constructed.

[DMAVS41]

PART of the reason those meltdowns and losses happen is because of the holes they have as a team.

Outside of CP and DJ they are terrible defensively. They let Houston score 40 in the 4th quarter of game 6 and allowed 117.5 ORtg in the last 3 games of the series. NO team capable of winning a championship does that.

Last night against the Warriors? They allowed the Warriors to score 39 points on 100+ eFG% in the 4th.

They also have no one who can do anything offensively besides CP in 4th quarters against elite defensive teams. He's their only reliable creator but he can't do it all by himself.

Their only defensive anchor has ZERO offensive game and can't even play late in games due to his FT shooting.

And their bench is completely trash. The Warriors' run yesterday started the instant CP left the game in the 3rd quarter.

No that's not all it would take.

What about the huge difference in bench production when each teams starters leave the floor?

I don't think you realize how terrible the Clippers were last season without CP. They went -7.9 when he sat on the bench. Show me another "championship contender" that regressed that badly when a star player left the floor.

They were a 4 man team and were a horrible, horrible team outside of Paul/Redick/Griffin/Jordan.

Jamal Crawford shot below 45 TS% in the playoffs and played his usual horrible defense. Matt Barnes shot below 50 TS%. :oldlol: How the hell are they beating the Warriors with those 2 negative impact players?

There's no way in hell they would've stayed competitive with the Warriors. It would've went 5 at most. The Clippers as I've said weren't capable of winning a championship as constructed.


Yes, part of it is that....but another part of it is that their number 1 offense falls apart late at times. You make it sound like I'm blaming only Paul or that the Clippers are the best team. I'm not doing that at all. I'm simply saying they have a chance...which they very clearly do.

No, it wouldn't take more than that.

Are you watching these games? These games are not games of two teams that aren't very close in terms of this matchup.

I think the Warriors are better because they'll be more successful against the league as a whole, but you have to stop with this shit about how they have no chance to win.

Here is a thought...don't ****ing blow big 4th qtr leads.

Yes, the Clippers aren't perfect, but you'd have more of an argument if Paul wasn't a big part of the meltdowns we've seen.

I think that is what you are missing...these games aren't going to be easy. Each basket matters...Paul missing 4 straight shots in crunch time is killer. You aren't going to win doing that consistently in close games. When the 10 point lead was cut to 5...Paul basically had a layup...a 2 footer...he missed it. That is a huge play. Part of stopping people involves scoring so you get your defense set up. He had earlier missed a 3 to answer Curry. He then missed a shot to take the lead back with 1:30 left...and then missed another shot to cut it to 1 with 1 minute left. No getting to the line...nothing...just 4 missed shots in the least 5 minutes of the game iirc.

Nobody is saying it's easy. It's ****ing hard...it's hard to beat elite teams...especially in the playoffs. But unfortunately that is how titles are won unless you are on 01 Lakers type teams in which nobody can touch you.

You can't keep acting Paul isn't part of the problem here. What...you think they should just blow the best team in the league out?

Also, a bit disingenuous on your part about the on/off stuff. That obviously doesn't matter to you because in 13 the Clippers were still positive without CP3. They were plus 9.7 with him and plus 3 without him...yet you still claim they had no chance to win. Same with 14...plus 11.1 with him...plus 2 without him. And yes...plenty of teams have won the title like that.

[Young X]

That wasnt the overall feeling at the time at all, though.. after they beat the Spurs, everybody expected them to trash the Rockets (which they did, even without CP3), and get ready for a GOAT level WCF between GSW and LAC...It wasn't the overall feeling because people live in the moment and get excited too early. Those same people thought the Clippers wouldn't even get past the 1st round. Hell, mostly everyone said they would lose to the Spurs. Alot of people naturally overreact to things that happen at the moment and that's exactly what happened.

Nobody who seriously thought about it logically would think the Clippers had any chance. They have NO advantages over them besides Griffin.

[DMAVS41]

It wasn't the overall feeling because people live in the moment and get excited too early. Those same people thought the Clippers wouldn't even get past the 1st round. Hell, mostly everyone said they would lose to the Spurs. Alot of people naturally overreact to things that happen at the moment and that's exactly what happened.

Nobody who seriously thought about it logically would think the Clippers had any chance. They have NO advantages over them besides Griffin.

And then they beat the Spurs

Something you probably said was "impossible"...right?

[notatop29pg]

Yes, part of it is that....but another part of it is that their number 1 offense falls apart late at times.

No, it wouldn't take more than that.

Are you watching these games? These games are not games of two teams that aren't very close in terms of this matchup.

I think the Warriors are better because they'll be more successful against the league as a whole, but you have to stop with this shit about how they have no chance to win.

Here is a thought...don't ****ing blow big 4th qtr leads.

Yes, the Clippers aren't perfect, but you'd have more of an argument if Paul wasn't a big part of the meltdowns we've seen.

I think that is what you are missing...these games aren't going to be easy. Each basket matters...Paul missing 4 straight shots in crunch time is killer. You aren't going to win doing that consistently in close games. When the 10 point lead was cut to 5...Paul basically had a layup...a 2 footer...he missed it. That is a huge play. Part of stopping people involves scoring so you get your defense set up. He had earlier missed a 3 to answer Curry. He then missed a shot to take the lead back with 1:30 left...and then missed another shot to cut it to 1 with 1 minute left. No getting to the line...nothing...just 4 missed shots in the least 5 minutes of the game iirc.

Nobody is saying it's easy. It's ****ing hard...it's hard to beat elite teams...especially in the playoffs. But unfortunately that is how titles are won unless you are on 01 Lakers type teams in which nobody can touch you.

You can't keep acting Paul isn't part of the problem here. What...you think they should just blow the best team in the league out?

Why is the 5"10 guy even taking all of these shots down the stretch though? They"ve got the strongest and most athletic PF in the game being guarded by Klay or Draymond and he can only score 1pt in the 4th?

They literally shoukd be able to just dump it down to him and let him do his thing whenever points are needed. It should be a far better option that the smallest and slowest guy on the court. And yet...

[DMAVS41]

Why is the 5"10 guy even taking all of these shots down the stretch though? They"ve got the strongest and most athletic PF in the game being guarded by Klay or Draymond and he can only score 1pt in the 4th?

They literally shoukd be able to just dump it down to him and let him do his thing whenever points are needed. It should be a far better option that the smallest and slowest guy on the court. And yet...

Well yea...Blake has to play a ton better.

You won't see me saying otherwise.

I do not think this is all Paul's fault...I think he's their best player.

My point is simple. It is not impossible this year or the last 2 years for the Clippers to make a run. The only way you get there is by saying this team is incapable of playing a playoff series without historic type meltdowns. And I just don't buy that at all.

Do I think they are the favorites? Nope. Should they be heavily hated on if they lose? Nope.

But to act like this team has no chance to win the title...and never did. Just absurd...sorry.

[ArbitraryWater]

It wasn't the overall feeling because people live in the moment and get excited too early. Those same people thought the Clippers wouldn't even get past the 1st round. Hell, mostly everyone said they would lose to the Spurs. Alot of people naturally overreact to things that happen at the moment and that's exactly what happened.

Nobody who seriously thought about it logically would think the Clippers had any chance. They have NO advantages over them besides Griffin.

That series was anticipated as hell dude :biggums:

this feels like strong revisionist history... Spurs were better than the Rockets, Clippers beat the Spurs (also on the strength of an amazing Paul), and you need to stop this 'no team with this/that wins a title', yes, they do... maybe they do if someone doesn't have a late TO that would otherwise get them up 3-2 and one game away from the WCF (2014), or stop the bleeding / close out a 19- point lead that would directly bring them into the WCF (2015).

And this year again, a series with Golden State could be a very good one.

[Straight_Ballin]

His intensity.:bowdown: :bowdown:

But yet he can't even stop Linsanity with 2 seconds on the shot clock off a simple pick and roll. :confusedshrug:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7cVBlxc8OA

[Young X]

Yes, part of it is that....but another part of it is that their number 1 offense falls apart late at times.

No, it wouldn't take more than that.

Are you watching these games? These games are not games of two teams that aren't very close in terms of this matchup.

I think the Warriors are better because they'll be more successful against the league as a whole, but you have to stop with this shit about how they have no chance to win.

Here is a thought...don't ****ing blow big 4th qtr leads.

Yes, the Clippers aren't perfect, but you'd have more of an argument if Paul wasn't a big part of the meltdowns we've seen.

I think that is what you are missing...these games aren't going to be easy. Each basket matters...Paul missing 4 straight shots in crunch time is killer. You aren't going to win doing that consistently in close games. When the 10 point lead was cut to 5...Paul basically had a layup...a 2 footer...he missed it. That is a huge play. Part of stopping people involves scoring so you get your defense set up. He had earlier missed a 3 to answer Curry. He then missed a shot to take the lead back with 1:30 left...and then missed another shot to cut it to 1 with 1 minute left. No getting to the line...nothing...just 4 missed shots in the least 5 minutes of the game iirc.

Nobody is saying it's easy. It's ****ing hard...it's hard to beat elite teams...especially in the playoffs. But unfortunately that is how titles are won unless you are on 01 Lakers type teams in which nobody can touch you.

You can't keep acting Paul isn't part of the problem here. What...you think they should just blow the best team in the league out?Before that, he also hit 2 big threes, made a steal, set up DJ for a dunk and got Pierce a wide open shot that he bricked and he did this while being guarded by an elite 6'7 perimeter defender and chasing a nuclear weapon on the other end.

Their offense fails late at times because like I keep saying, they don't have anyone who can step up and actually HELP him. He's the only one who can create anything, put any pressure on the defense and who can defend on the perimeter.

He has to do way too much for a team that's supposedly a "championship contender".

He should be able to sit on the bench and have his team play at a respectable level, he should be able to have some bad games and moments and still have a chance to win, he should be able to rely on his All-Star, 27 PPG power forward late in games...but he can't.

Forgive me for not putting any real blame on him but I DON'T.


That series was anticipated as hell dude :biggums:

this feels like strong revisionist history... Spurs were better than the Rockets, Clippers beat the Spurs (also on the strength of an amazing Paul), and you need to stop this 'no team with this/that wins a title', yes, they do... maybe they do if someone doesn't have a late TO that would otherwise get them up 3-2 and one game away from the WCF (2014), or stop the bleeding / close out a 19- point lead that would directly bring them into the WCF (2015).

And this year again, a series with Golden State could be a very good one.My bad, I meant "it was" instead of "it wasn't".

You're right, it was anticipated, but anyone who really thought about the series logically instead of being caught up in the moment knew the Warriors would've killed them. You can check my old posts, I've been saying the Clippers had a chance against anybody besides the Warriors the whole time.

And I feel the same way this season too. If the 2 teams meet up, the Clippers will absolutely not have a chance at winning against them unless something drastic happens. It's 2 totally different caliber teams in terms of 2 way play.

[notatop29pg]

Before that, he also hit 2 big threes, made a steal, set up DJ for a dunk and got Pierce a wide open shot that he bricked and he did this while being guarded by an elite 6'7 perimeter defender and chasing a nuclear weapon on the other end.

Their offense fails late at times because like I keep saying, they don't have anyone who can step up and actually HELP him. He's the only one who can create anything, put any pressure on the defense and who can defend on the perimeter.

He has to do way too much for a team that's supposedly a "championship contender".

He should be able to sit on the bench and have his team play at a respectable level, he should be able to have some bad games and moments and still have a chance to win, he should be able to rely on his All-Star, 27 PPG power forward late in games...but he can't.

Forgive me for not putting any real blame on him but I DON'T.

Agree totally.

He's missed plenty of big shots... but also hit plenty too.

He's 30 now, and is due to slow down soon.. yet the expectation is still on him to win games down the stretch. Not the 26yr old "best PF in the league". Every year he's talked up as being the Cips best player.. and every year when it counts it all falls on CP3.

Having said all that.... the rest of the guys are so low IQ that losing 20 point leads never surprises me.. the second Cp3 sits they go into chuck/meltdown mode.

[DMAVS41]

Before that, he also hit 2 big threes, made a steal, set up DJ for a dunk and got Pierce a wide open shot that he bricked and he did this while being guarded by an elite 6'7 perimeter defender and chasing a nuclear weapon on the other end.

Their offense fails late at times because like I keep saying, they don't have anyone who can step up and actually HELP him. He's the only one who can create anything, put any pressure on the defense and who can defend on the perimeter.

He has to do way too much for a team that's supposedly a "championship contender".

He should be able to sit on the bench and have his team play at a respectable level, he should be able to have some bad games and moments and still have a chance to win, he should be able to rely on his All-Star, 27 PPG power forward late in games...but he can't.

Forgive me for not putting any real blame on him but I DON'T.

Yea...and that is what superstars do...they help their teammates and set them up in a variety of ways.

Griffin isn't a great crunch time player because of his game...although he is improving.

However, what you say isn't true....Griffin in the 14 playoffs crunch time per 100 possessions;

41/9/2 54% TS...he's not a guy that just can't score

Paul in that same period;

26/7/9 52% TS


Lets look at 15:

Paul;

17/6/8 49% TS

Griffin;

26/17/11 38% TS

Meh...seems to me that in the last two playoffs they could both improve their play quite a bit...especially from a scoring efficiency standpoint in crunch time.


I just think you have this narrow and biased view that no matter what happens...like Paul missing 4 straight shots in crunch time last night...is always someone elses fault.

Now, it often might be, but you take your conclusions way too far

[game3524]

Is it a coincidence that his teams have a tendency to suffer embarrassing collapses?

- blown out by 58 at home in the playoffs
- backdoor swept by Memphis
- game 5 against OKC
- blows 3-1 lead against Rockets, despite being up 20 in game 6
- clippers are known for having late game collapses. Last night was the latest example.

hmm....

He gets his efficient numbers, but it seems like he's nowhere to be found when his team shits the bed :confusedshrug: Maybe because he can't take over a game like Curry, Lebron, Durant, etc.

I know that "efficient, but not dominant" thing was a meme on ISH for a while, but it actually applies to Paul. High FG%, great assist/TO, but defenses don't fear him like they fear Stephen Curry for example. How often do you see defenses trying to get the ball out of his hands? They're perfectly content to let him dribble around.

This and I am a big CP3 fan. He is a great player and an all-time great PG, but you can tell teams just generally don't fear him as much as you would expect for a guy with his rep.

Seriously go watch Russ or even AI back in the day drop 35 and see how defenses react to them. It is completely night and day compared to CP3.

[notatop29pg]

The thing yhat gets the Clippers (imo) is not so much missed shots but more just wasted opportunities when they are needed.

Its hard to explain, but they'll play hard on D and get a clutch stop... only for DJ/Blake to be outrebound by Klay who they'll then foul on a point blank putback. But thats ok.. still up by 3.. then Blake/DJ wont be able to control the ball 2 feet from the hoop for a simple dunk layup when the tallest guy near them is 6'7.

Missed shots i can handle... but their ability to screw up the simplest of tasks at the most important moments is what kills them. Like CP3 against OKC.. the only time i believe he's been 100% to blame.

Except the other Clippers do it 3 times PER game. And generally when they can least afford it.

Its deflating.

[Young X]

But to act like this team has no chance to win the title...and never did. Just absurd...sorry.It depends on what you mean by "chance". I didn't think Houston, Memphis or the Hawks had/have a real chance either. The Clippers are in the same tier as those teams.

Obviously it's not impossible, but 9 times outta 10 it wouldn't have happened.

The best team CP3 ever played on was the 2014 Clippers. That was the only team that was good enough to have possibly won it all and they still would've had to beat a monster OKC team led by the MVP and a historically great Spurs team without homecourt as the 3rd seed to even get to the finals and face the defending champs. What are the odds of that happening?

[DMAVS41]

The thing yhat gets the Clippers (imo) is not so much missed shots but more just wasted opportunities when they are needed.

Its hard to explain, but they'll play hard on D and get a clutch stop... only for DJ/Blake to be outrebound by Klay who they'll then foul on a point blank putback. But thats ok.. still up by 3.. then Blake/DJ wont be able to control the ball 2 feet from the hoop for a simple dunk layup when the tallest guy near them is 6'7.

Missed shots i can handle... but their ability to screw up the simplest of tasks at the most important moments is what kills them. Like CP3 against OKC.. the only time i believe he's been 100% to blame.

Except the other Clippers do it 3 times PER game. And generally when they can least afford it.

Its deflating.

Yes, this team is not perfect by any means. But even with all of those flaws...some are more real than others imo...

The Clippers have still proven to be right there with the best teams in the league both in the regular season and playoffs these last 2 plus years...

I'm not saying they should have won a title...I'm not saying that losing to the Thunder was a disgrace.

I'm saying they had a chance to win...again..despite everything you just said...a couple more makes...no pathetically boneheaded cp3 sequences...and they are right there to win

So how does a team that beats the Spurs, nearly beats the Thunder...plays the Warriors this close consistently...wins loads of games...how do you list them as a team with absolutely no chance to win?

It just seems to me it's an insult to Paul...if you guys think he really is that good...or perhaps you don't. I'm really unclear on this...because I'm harder on Paul than most (although I have him very high all time) and I certainly think he has a chance to do special things...but you guys don't? Just doesn't make sense to me given the evidence and how highly you claim to think of Paul.

[notatop29pg]

This and I am a big CP3 fan. He is a great player and an all-time great PG, but you can tell teams just generally don't fear him as much as you would expect for a guy with his rep.

Seriously go watch Russ or even AI back in the day drop 35 and see how defenses react to them. It is completely night and day compared to CP3.

Teams fear CP3 plenty. Theres a reason why a 5"10 30yr old is always guarded by the best tall wing defender available.

Of course teams react to russ/ai differently... because you KNOW they arent going to pass, so you can afford to throw everything you have at them.

Maybe its CP3s biggest weakness.. but unlike russ/ai he WILL pass it to the wide open Paxson for the game winner. Maybe its a weakness that he expects a professional basketball player to have a higher chance of hitting a wide open shot than he does against 2 defenders.

If he took 35 shots a game and only hot 30% of them like those guys have countless times... hed still be a choker.. so its lose lose really.

[DMAVS41]

It depends on what you mean by "chance". I didn't think Houston, Memphis or the Hawks had/have a real chance either. The Clippers are in the same tier as those teams.

Obviously it's not impossible, but 9 times outta 10 it wouldn't have happened.

The best team CP3 ever played on was the 2014 Clippers. That was the only team that was good enough to have possibly won it all and they still would've had to beat a monster OKC team led by the MVP and a historically great Spurs team without homecourt as the 3rd seed to even get to the finals and face the defending champs. What are the odds of that happening?

Not as dramatically low as you think...considering those Thunder were maybe like 1% better than the Clippers in that series.

Like I said...I'd agree with you if I saw the Clippers outmatched with Paul just playing great late in games or just great overall.

I just don't see that. All I see is a team about as good as their opponent that has some late game issues and can't seem to keep a lead.

And I fully grant that isn't all on Paul...in fact, most of it isn't...but they aren't so far away that they can't win.

Hell, I just posted the numbers...it's not like Paul is going nuts late in close games...he's been kind of "meh" overall in the playoffs these last 2 years according to the numbers...in crunch time.

You need your best player to step up in those situations and consistently make plays...

Take Curry last year...

46/8/5 62% TS

[notatop29pg]

Yes, this team is not perfect by any means. But even with all of those flaws...some are more real than others imo...

The Clippers have still proven to be right there with the best teams in the league both in the regular season and playoffs these last 2 plus years...

I'm not saying they should have won a title...I'm not saying that losing to the Thunder was a disgrace.

I'm saying they had a chance to win...again..despite everything you just said...a couple more makes...no pathetically boneheaded cp3 sequences...and they are right there to win

So how does a team that beats the Spurs, nearly beats the Thunder...plays the Warriors this close consistently...wins loads of games...how do you list them as a team with absolutely no chance to win?

It just seems to me it's an insult to Paul...if you guys think he really is that good...or perhaps you don't. I'm really unclear on this...because I'm harder on Paul than most (although I have him very high all time) and I certainly think he has a chance to do special things...but you guys don't? Just doesn't make sense to me given the evidence and how highly you claim to think of Paul.

I think i skipped the bit where someone said they had no chance. I disagree with that entirely. No chance was NOLA v Lakers.

The Clipps are a BIG chance.. and only slightly behind GS at their best.

Having said that.. i go into those games knowing in advance that CP3/Blake will build a lead... get benched, lose the lead, get it back again, then not have enough left to get over the line. And i include Blake in there only to not put CP3 on an island. Blakes inability to hit free throws when they count and to be a dump and watch option down the stretch really hurts them.

Even without all that though... they still wont/cant go all the way coz of free throws. No matter how well they play, hack a DJ will get them.

So yeah... i believe they are good enough... but at yhe same time i expect that they wont.

If you know what i mean.

[DMAVS41]

I think i skipped the bit where someone said they had no chance. I disagree with that entirely. No chance was NOLA v Lakers.

The Clipps are a BIG chance.. and only slightly behind GS at their best.

Having said that.. i go into those games knowing in advance that CP3/Blake will build a lead... get benched, lose the lead, get it back again, then not have enough left to get over the line. And i include Blake in there only to not put CP3 on an island. Blakes inability to hit free throws when they count and to be a dump and watch option down the stretch really hurts them.

Even without all that though... they still wont/cant go all the way coz of free throws. No matter how well they play, hack a DJ will get them.

So yeah... i believe they are good enough... but at yhe same time i expect that they wont.

If you know what i mean.

Yes...the only difference is that I do think that they have more of a chance than you, but I fully agree with the general point of your post.

[game3524]

Teams fear CP3 plenty. Theres a reason why a 5"10 30yr old is always guarded by the best tall wing defender available.

Of course teams react to russ/ai differently... because you KNOW they arent going to pass, so you can afford to throw everything you have at them.

Maybe its CP3s biggest weakness.. but unlike russ/ai he WILL pass it to the wide open Paxson for the game winner. Maybe its a weakness that he expects a professional basketball player to have a higher chance of hitting a wide open shot than he does against 2 defenders.

If he took 35 shots a game and only hot 30% of them like those guys have countless times... hed still be a choker.. so its lose lose really.

No, teams react to those guys differently because they are/were more dominant when they were on their "A" game then CP3.

[notatop29pg]

No, teams react to those guys differently because they are/were more dominant when they were on their "A" game then CP3.

"Dominant" is just another kid name around here like "alpha". What it actually means in your example is "Chucker".

Yes, when Russ/AI have an "A" game they are dominant, if JJ Redick took 35 shots in a game and it just so happened to be an "A" game, then it would be "dominant" too, and most likely moreso than the guys above, because 30 of those shots would be 3's and an "A" game would mean he hits 60% of them.

Teams react differently to AI/Russ because their actions are predictable and nobody else on the floor is the slightest threat while one of those two have the ball.

[Young X]

Not as dramatically low as you think...considering those Thunder were maybe like 1% better than the Clippers in that series.

Like I said...I'd agree with you if I saw the Clippers outmatched with Paul just playing great late in games or just great overall.

I just don't see that. All I see is a team about as good as their opponent that has some late game issues and can't seem to keep a lead.

And I fully grant that isn't all on Paul...in fact, most of it isn't...but they aren't so far away that they can't win.

Hell, I just posted the numbers...it's not like Paul is going nuts late in close games...he's been kind of "meh" overall in the playoffs these last 2 years according to the numbers...in crunch time.

You need your best player to step up in those situations and consistently make plays...OKC was definitely the better team in that series by more than 1%. Everybody picked them to beat the Clippers going into the series and they had homecourt.

The Clippers blew out OKC in game 1 mainly because of CP3's ridiculous performance. He went 32/10 on 114 TS% with 8/9 threes made in under 28 minutes (another phenomenal performance against a tough opponent that nobody remembers but whatever).

From that point on...OKC controlled the rest of the series. They won 4 of the next 5 games and were up 22 points at one point game 4.

The only thing that kept the Clippers in that series...was CP3.

I think you're really overrating how good the Clippers are. Going into the playoffs did you honestly at any point from 2012-2015 think they could win 16 playoffs games? Especially as the 3rd seed without homecourt in THIS kind of conference? I never expected them to even get past the 2nd round besides maybe last season.

[game3524]

"Dominant" is just another kid name around here like "alpha". What it actually means in your example is "Chucker".

Yes, when Russ/AI have an "A" game they are dominant, if JJ Redick took 35 shots in a game and it just so happened to be an "A" game, then it would be "dominant" too, and most likely moreso than the guys above, because 30 of those shots would be 3's and an "A" game would mean he hits 60% of them.

Teams react differently to AI/Russ because their actions are predictable and nobody else on the floor is the slightest threat while one of those two have the ball.

It is not just hosting up a ton of shots. I am talking about the sheer intensity and energy guys like Russ and AI brought to the court night in and night out and their teammates generally feed off of that.

The only time I have seen CP3 bring that kind of intensity was game 7 against the Spurs and the first round against Dallas in 2008.

[notatop29pg]

It is not just hosting up a ton of shots. I am talking about the sheer intensity and energy guys like Russ and AI brought to the court night in and night out and their teammates generally feed off of that.

The only time I have seen CP3 bring that kind of intensity was game 7 against the Spurs and the first round against Dallas in 2008.

I honestly think CP3 learnt a harsh lesson in his early days, and that was that he couldn't do it alone, no matter how hard he tried to dominate.

Russ hasn't learnt that yet, and AI never did, at some point you need to get the other guys involved.

CP3 probably takes it a bit too far.. sometimes by force feeding the other guys for 3 quarters. But he can still dominate when he wants to.. i think he just knows it won't carry. Just like it didn't yesterday.

[catch24]

Not as dramatically low as you think...considering those Thunder were maybe like 1% better than the Clippers in that series.

Like I said...I'd agree with you if I saw the Clippers outmatched with Paul just playing great late in games or just great overall.

I just don't see that. All I see is a team about as good as their opponent that has some late game issues and can't seem to keep a lead.

And I fully grant that isn't all on Paul...in fact, most of it isn't...but they aren't so far away that they can't win.

Hell, I just posted the numbers...it's not like Paul is going nuts late in close games...he's been kind of "meh" overall in the playoffs these last 2 years according to the numbers...in crunch time.

You need your best player to step up in those situations and consistently make plays...

Take Curry last year...

46/8/5 62% TS

I feel that his failures get swept under the rug by his fans. I've seen dude carve up my Lakers endless games, but in the playoffs, I have also seen him shrink into oblivion...countless times.

Curry is already better than Paul ever has been IMO.

[ArbitraryWater]

I feel that his failures get swept under the rug by his fans. I've seen dude carve up my Lakers endless games, but in the playoffs, I have also seen him shrink into oblivion...countless times.

Curry is already better than Paul ever has been IMO.

2016 Curry? He's better than Kobe has ever been then, too...

tbh, I've seen Paul be great in the playoffs more than not, but he came up short at the two worst most possible moments last 2 post-seasons..

by the way, anyone remember the mini comeback Clippers made in the 4th quarter of game 7? I thought that one was interrupted and broken up by the refs, I think LAC still had a chance in that one.

[catch24]

2016 Curry? He's better than Kobe has ever been then, too...

tbh, I've seen Paul be great in the playoffs more than not, but he came up short at the two worst most possible moments last 2 post-seasons..

by the way, anyone remember the mini comeback Clippers made in the 4th quarter of game 7? I thought that one was interrupted and broken up by the refs, I think LAC still had a chance in that one.

2015 Curry.

If 2016 Curry can keep up the GOAT level offense, I may be inclined to agree with you. Dude is killing it.

[DMAVS41]

OKC was definitely the better team in that series by more than 1%. Everybody picked them to beat the Clippers going into the series and they had homecourt.

The Clippers blew out OKC in game 1 mainly because of CP3's ridiculous performance. He went 32/10 on 114 TS% with 8/9 threes made in under 28 minutes (another phenomenal performance against a tough opponent that nobody remembers but whatever).

From that point on...OKC controlled the rest of the series. They won 4 of the next 5 games and were up 22 points at one point game 4.

The only thing that kept the Clippers in that series...was CP3.

I think you're really overrating how good the Clippers are. Going into the playoffs did you honestly at any point from 2012-2015 think they could win 16 playoffs games? Especially as the 3rd seed without homecourt in THIS kind of conference? I never expected them to even get past the 2nd round besides maybe last season.

Really? When the only reason the Clippers weren't heading home to clinch the series in 6 was possibly the most absurd 1 minute sequence I've ever seen? Your argument is that the Thunder were decisively better in that series?

I just don't see it hat way.

And yes...I don't know why I wouldn't. The Clippers have elite offense and two top 10 players...they aren't great defensively, but not horrible either.

Why would I think they have no chance to make a run? They had the 4th best offense and 8th best defense in 13...I know BG was hurt and that probably ended the chances, but before that...why are you selling them so short? No chance?

In 14...they had the best offense and the 9th best defense. They had a positive scoring differential without Paul.

Honestly, what more do you want? Championship coach, best offense, top 9 defense, Paul (who you claim to think highly of) and BG....2 top 10 players in the league.

Last year they beat the Spurs...again...two top 10 players...

It's exactly what historically wins titles.

Just know...this is exactly why Paul gets heat. Well, this and the last two playoff meltdowns.

But you Paul fans man...you act like he's not to blame at all...in fact, you've basically said that. Yet his crunch time numbers aren't good....his team has thrown away two series...one to a Rockets team that had no business beating them. All while you go on and on about no help and complain about the Spurs and Warriors....two teams you never even played. It's just not adding up...

All while they check off basically everything you need historically to win. They are competitive in every series they lose...often being as good or better...these last 2 years at least.

It's just either under-rating the clippers or Paul to extreme levels to pretend like they had no chance. I'm assuming you aren't under-rating Paul...so you have to be under-rating everything else.

[DMAVS41]

I feel that his failures get swept under the rug by his fans. I've seen dude carve up my Lakers endless games, but in the playoffs, I have also seen him shrink into oblivion...countless times.

Curry is already better than Paul ever has been IMO.


I mean...I know what you actually mean, but i don't see how saying something that hyperbolic gets us anywhere.

[catch24]

:facepalm

You're probably right.

Would a "number of times" suffice? :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

You're probably right.

Would a "number of times" suffice? :cheers:

I edited my post because I didn't know if you would think I was joking or not...I was just messing with you because I get the point.

I just don't want a Paul fan to see that and argue with you forever about that.

[Young X]

Really? When the only reason the Clippers weren't heading home to clinch the series in 6 was possibly the most absurd 1 minute sequence I've ever seen? Your argument is that the Thunder were decisively better in that series?

I just don't see it hat way.

And yes...I don't know why I wouldn't. The Clippers have elite offense and two top 10 players...they aren't great defensively, but not horrible either.

Why would I think they have no chance to make a run? They had the 4th best offense and 8th best defense in 13...I know BG was hurt and that probably ended the chances, but before that...why are you selling them so short? No chance?

In 14...they had the best offense and the 9th best defense. They had a positive scoring differential without Paul.

Honestly, what more do you want? Championship coach, best offense, top 9 defense, Paul (who you claim to think highly of) and BG....2 top 10 players in the league.

It's exactly what historically wins titles.

Just know...this is exactly why Paul gets heat. Well, this and the last two playoff meltdowns.

But you Paul fans man...you act like he's not to blame at all...in fact, you've basically said that. Yet his crunch time numbers aren't good....his team has thrown away two series...one to a Rockets team that had no business beating them. All while you go on and on about no help and complain about the Spurs and Warriors....two teams you never even played. It's just not adding up...

All while they check off basically everything you need historically to win. They are competitive in every series they lose...often being as good or better...these last 2 years at least.

It's just either under-rating the clippers or Paul to extreme levels to pretend like they had no chance. I'm assuming you aren't under-rating Paul...so you have to be under-rating everything else.I'm just not the type to automatically put blame on the best player or the leader of a team for their team's failures especially if the team has glaring weaknesses outside of his hands that stop them from reaching their potential, sorry.

CP is the LAST player I point the finger at for the Clippers inability to get deep in the postseason. Unless he generally underperforms for an entire series in which they lose I'm not doing it. He's had a couple bad moments so I'm not saying he doesn't deserve at least a little heat but putting any kind of blame on him is idiotic to me. He's their best performer and he's consistent.

And no the Clippers do not check off everything you need to win.

They don't play elite defense or get stops late in games. Championship teams do this.

They don't have a respectable bench (besides 2014 regular season).

They at times have to bench their only rim protector in key moments because of teams intentionally hacking him.

They don't have reliable role players. LOL @ Jamal Crawford chucking them out of games. Matt Barnes? Austin Rivers?

They've also had bad luck with injuries such as Blake in the last 2 games against the Grizzlies in 2013 and CP missing the 1st 2 games against Houston.

I look at all these things holding them back and then I look at CP3's consistency and I don't think he's to blame. And this goes not only for CP3 but for anybody.

[DMAVS41]

I'm just not the type to automatically put blame on the best player or the leader of a team for their failures especially if they have glaring weaknesses outside of his hands that stop them from reaching their potential, sorry.

CP is the LAST player I point the finger at for the Clippers inability to get deep in the postseason. Unless he generally underperforms for an entire series I'm not doing it. He's had a couple bad moments so I'm not saying he doesn't deserve at least a little heat but putting any kind of blame on him is idiotic to me. He's their best performer and he's consistent.

And no the Clippers do not check off everything you need to win.

They don't play elite defense or get stops late in games. Championship teams do this.

They don't have a respectable bench (besides 2014 regular season).

They at times have to bench their only rim protector in key moments because of teams intentionally hacking him.

They don't have reliable role players. LOL @ Jamal Crawford chucking them out of games. Matt Barnes? Austin Rivers?

They've also had bad luck with injuries such as Blake in the last 2 games against the Grizzlies in 2013 and CP missing the 1st 2 games against Houston.

I look at all these things holding them back and then I look at CP3's consistency and I don't think he's to blame. And this goes not only for CP3 but for anybody.

But you know I already agree that Paul is the best player on the team...which in turn means he's ultimately the least to blame.

So I don't get these points.

Nobody is fully blaming Paul...and I'm certainly not calling him anything other than an all time great player.

The Clippers in 14 absolutely had everything you need.

Best offense, 9th defense, proven championship coach, two top 10 players in the league...and a positive scoring differential with Paul off the court all year.

I'm sorry...if you are saying they essentially have no chance to win with that...then you simply don't think Paul is as good as you say he is.

And, Jesus Christ, nobody is holding him to a championship or bust standard...we'd just like to see him get a team out of the ****ing 2nd round at some point. Superstars are held to higher standards...if you are a key part of two epic meltdowns...you are going to take heat whether you are a great player or not. Like I have repeatedly said...what hurts Paul more right now is that he doesn't have much to hang his hat on in the playoffs throughout his career. Some due to circumstances and some due to his own making...like every player before and after.

Like...it's obvious that if Paul played on the Warriors he'd have a much better chance of winning. I think most sensible people would agree that he'd have to do way less for that team, but he'd still have to play and play great to win...

[Young X]

But you know I already agree that Paul is the best player on the team...which in turn means he's ultimately the least to blame.

So I don't get these points.

Nobody is fully blaming Paul...and I'm certainly not calling him anything other than an all time great player.

The Clippers in 14 absolutely had everything you need.

Best offense, 9th defense, proven championship coach, two top 10 players in the league...and a positive scoring differential with Paul off the court all year.

I'm sorry...if you are saying they essentially have no chance to win with that...then you simply don't think Paul is as good as you say he is.I kind of agree with you about the '14 Clippers. Their bench was horrible in the playoffs but generally over the whole season whey were really good. I don't think they would've beaten the Thunder and Spurs back to back but they had somewhat of a chance. None of the other Clippers teams were good enough to win it all or seriously threaten to.


And, Jesus Christ, nobody is holding him to a championship or bust standard...we'd just like to see him get a team out of the ****ing 2nd round at some point. Superstars are held to higher standards...if you are a key part of two epic meltdowns...you are going to take heat whether you are a great player or not. Like I have repeatedly said...what hurts Paul more right now is that he doesn't have much to hang his hat on in the playoffs throughout his career. Some due to circumstances and some due to his own making...like every player before and after.Honestly, what are we really arguing about? I agree with alot of what you're saying, what I don't agree with is the degree with which it happens. I think alot of it is unfair.

Do I think Paul should get some heat for the Clippers losses? Yes, but nowhere near the amount of heat that he actually does get.

Does CP3 have much to hang his hat on in the playoffs? Obviously not because he doesn't have a ring and doesn't have enough playoff wins.

Are the Clippers an elite team? Yeah, but they lack certain things that can get them to a true championship level (outside of 2014 when they had Collison) that I've mentioned in this thread. Alot of those things are outside of CP's control.

[DMAVS41]

I kind of agree with you about the '14 Clippers. Their bench was horrible in the playoffs but generally over the whole season whey were really good. I don't think they would've beaten the Thunder and Spurs back to back but they had somewhat of a chance. None of the other Clippers teams were good enough to win it all or seriously threaten to.

Honestly, what are we really arguing about? I agree with alot of what you're saying, what I don't agree with is the degree with which it happens. I think alot of it is unfair.

Do I think Paul should get some heat for the Clippers losses? Yes, but nowhere near the amount of heat that he actually does get.

Does CP3 have much to hang his hat on in the playoffs? Obviously not because he doesn't have a ring and doesn't have enough playoff wins.

Are the Clippers an elite team? Yeah, but they lack certain things that can get them to a true championship level (outside of 2014 when they had Collison) that I've mentioned in this thread. Alot of those things are outside of CP's control.

Yea...I agree with pretty much all of that. You'll never see me saying Paul is anything but one of the best points ever. I've repeatedly said he's the best point guard since Magic...(until Curry came around at least)...and Curry has to do for a long period of time.

My issue with what you said was simply about the Clips not having much of a chance to win. I fully agree they haven't been and won't be the favorites, but I also think if they just played awesome...they could definitely win it.

Trust me...coming as a Mavs and Dirk fan...I understand the unfair criticisms /expectations for both the team and the best player.

We all...at least me...agree Paul is all time great. I'm concerned with determining how great. And that part of it is a bit up in the air for me because these are the years for Paul both in terms of being right in the heart of his prime and having stronger teams than he's ever had...that I want to see him play his best when it matters most.

And until I see these Paul led Clippers get truly outclassed...I'm gonna think they have a good shot to win it all if they play great.