The Harden trade was still a disaster. Don't kid yourselves.

[Springsteen]

First and foremost, James "doorstopper sized pen1s" Harden is an ugly motherfvker; who would sleep with another man's wife while he has brain damage.

Secondly, half of his offense relies on snapping his head back and waiting for the foul. And the refs bite. Some of those calls last night in Houston were ridiculous.

Thirdly, his ego is so inflated at this point that it took him getting a longtime Houston coach fired to play some decent defense last game. I honestly don't think he'll win a title being who he is.

All of those things aside though, the Thunder still shit the bed. Harden was just a few notches below Curry for MVP, and is still one of the most prolific scorers in the league when he isn't snorting coke in Miami and banging Kardashians a night before a game.

Imagine the Thunder actually paid him his money? Someone like him, or at least a chunk of his talent from his time in Houston, coming off the bench? You may say, there's not enough ball to go around. Well how are the Warriors making it work? How did the Heat make it work?

Golden State paid Iguodala a large contract too, but moved him to the bench and got him to buy in. And now they have a championship. All those times KD or WB went down before playing the Spurs or the Grizz in the PO's, they could've subbed Harden in to help out. :facepalm Those cheap-ass Hicks chose saving money with Perkins over winning with Harden.

Besides Steven Adams, a solid role player, did anything that amazing come out of that trade for OKC, or did it set them back? I rest my case.

[GIF REACTION]

No it was still a bad trade

[HenryGarfunkle]

Wow man, groundbreaking stuff here

You know your shit

[DMAVS41]

First and foremost, James "doorstopper sized pen1s" Harden is an ugly motherfvker; who would sleep with another man's wife while he has brain damage.

Secondly, half of his offense relies on snapping his head back and waiting for the foul. And the refs bite. Some of those calls last night in Houston were ridiculous.

Thirdly, his ego is so inflated at this point that it took him getting a longtime Houston coach fired to play some decent defense last game. I honestly don't think he'll win a title being who he is.

All of those things aside though, the Thunder still shit the bed. Harden was just a few notches below Curry for MVP, and is still one of the most prolific scorers in the league when he isn't snorting coke in Miami and banging Kardashians a night before a game.

Imagine the Thunder actually paid him his money? Someone like him, or at least a chunk of his talent from his time in Houston, coming off the bench? You may say, there's not enough ball to go around. Well how are the Warriors making it work? How did the Heat make it work?

Golden State paid Iguodala a large contract too, but moved him to the bench and got him to buy in. And now they have a championship. All those times KD or WB went down before playing the Spurs or the Grizz in the PO's, they could've subbed Harden in to help out. :facepalm Those cheap-ass Hicks chose saving money with Perkins over winning with Harden.

Besides Steven Adams, a solid role player, did anything that amazing come out of that trade for OKC, or did it set them back? I rest my case.

The Warriors are nothing like the Thunder would be with WB, Durant, and Harden. The Warriors have one ball dominant player...the Thunder would have 3. It's nothing like it...and the defense would be a disaster in OKC with those 3 playing big minutes.

The Heat made it work because of defense...and because Bosh took a large back seat that nobody on the Thunder ultimately would have.

The Thunder did screw up...it just wasn't the Harden trade. It was Presti riding with Fisher/Butler in 14 when there were so many solid sg's out there that could have helped and were definitely attainable.

They screwed up with the Waiters pick up...probably the Kanter signing as well...although I'm more hopeful than most on this.

They look like they screwed up with Donovan at a coach as well.

The Harden trade actually set themselves up nicely. The best Thunder team to date has still been the 13 Thunder...can't blame Presti there...just fluke injury to WB.

But Presti ruined the 14 Thunder like I described above. Last year was ruined by the KD injury...and this year it looks like the combination of Waiters, Kanter, and Donovan....with still no sg that makes a ton of sense as a starter....are large problems.

But I don't get the Harden stuff anymore honestly. Now, I think Harden takes too much hate on here because he's a star player and what he's done in Houston is impressive, but I don't know who the **** can watch Harden these last 3 years and think he's well suited to play 3rd option on a team with WB/Durant that badly needs perimeter defense and off ball movement/shooting.

It just doesn't make sense at all. Maybe they should have traded WB, but one of them had to go...I don't see how everyone pretends otherwise. There were already chemistry issues and Harden, very clearly, wanted to be the man somewhere else.

[Marchesk]

It just doesn't make sense at all. Maybe they should have traded WB, but one of them had to go...I don't see how everyone pretends otherwise. There were already chemistry issues and Harden, very clearly, wanted to be the man somewhere else.

Problem is that they didn't get enough value back for him. What they got was a one year rental and a bunch of potential (draft picks & Lamb). They turned that into Adams and Waiters.

If keeping all three of them wasn't going to work, then they needed to get established quality in return to compliment Westbrook & Durant.

OTOH, keeping Harden would have meant he could have taken the load off Durant/Westbrook when one of them got hurt. Seems that has become a regular thing.

[Young X]

The Harden trade actually set themselves up nicely. The best Thunder team to date has still been the 13 Thunder...can't blame Presti there...just fluke injury to WB.That fluke injury would NOT have happened if Harden doesn't go to Houston.

And yeah the '13 Thunder were their best version but that was mainly because of Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka's individual improvement. They all got alot better than their '12 versions. That happens whether Harden is there or not.

OKC would've been unbelievable with Harden in 2013. Especially in the postseason. Westbrook doesn't get injured and they have a reliable SG in Harden instead of Martin who sucked.

That trade was and still is terrible.

[warriorfan]

How does wb KD and harden not work when it took them to the finals?

[GIF REACTION]

Kevin Martin leaving kind of sucked

He played that 6th man role well

[DMAVS41]

That fluke injury would NOT have happened if Harden doesn't go to Houston.

And yeah the '13 Thunder were their best version but that was mainly because of Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka's individual improvement. They all got alot better than their '12 versions. That happens whether Harden is there or not.

OKC would've been unbelievable with Harden in 2013. Especially in the postseason. Westbrook doesn't get injured and they have a reliable SG in Harden instead of Martin who sucked.

That trade was and still is terrible.

No they don't...they don't grow as much as player with Harden still there. I don't know why you people can't grasp this. He would not have allowed those 3 guys to play at their optimal level...and would have continued to hurt the defense and need the ball way too often.

Blaming the WB injury on the Harden trade is too big of a stretch. For all we know...WB could have gotten hurt way worse if Harden was on the team...this just isn't a logical argument.

The 13 Thunder didn't need anything else. They had the best team when healthy.

Again, you are telling me...that if you were looking at the Thunder currently and Harden never played there...you would be thinking that the Thunder should trade for Harden?

There is no way you actually believe this...he makes so little sense on this team.

It's the moves after the Harden trade...combined with injuries...that have hurt the Thunder.

[DMAVS41]

How does wb KD and harden not work when it took them to the finals?

When someone says "not worked" they are talking about it over the long term and comparing it to other potential rosters.

Of course they would have still been a great team...

But again, Harden, going forward, would not have been cool playing that role. He didn't want to be the 3rd guy on a team playing a little over 30 minutes a game in the playoffs.

Nor should he be...he's not well suited to play that role at all...especially not next to two other ball dominant wing scorers on a team that badly needs perimeter defense and off ball movement/shooting.

[Jameerthefear]

terrible trade. have get value back on harden. inexcusable.x

[DMAVS41]

Problem is that they didn't get enough value back for him. What they got was a one year rental and a bunch of potential (draft picks & Lamb). They turned that into Adams and Waiters.

If keeping all three of them wasn't going to work, then they needed to get established quality in return to compliment Westbrook & Durant.

OTOH, keeping Harden would have meant he could have taken the load off Durant/Westbrook when one of them got hurt. Seems that has become a regular thing.

Except WB had never been hurt a day in his life really until 13.

And Harden didn't want to be the 6th man...Manu role for this team...he did not want to do it. So the roles would have had to change or the team would have gone up in flames.

Also, you are speaking to moves after the Harden trade. A one year rental of Martin was actually nice...it allowed them to be the best team in basketball while keeping the future open...so there was no drop off in level...while getting two nice young players.

The Fisher/Butler moves, Waiters, Kanter, and Donavan stuff is not Harden related...they were just likely bad moves by Presti.

[Springsteen]

And Harden didn't want to be the 6th man...Manu role for this team...he did not want to do it. So the roles would have had to change or the team would have gone up in flames.


Harden said multiple times after the trade that he would've been perfectly fine playing in OKC alongside Durant/WB if he got his money. Watch the Grantland interview with KD and Harden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_mlKgftxCc

That's not all of it (Can't find the rest) but it shows you if they paid him like the Warriors paid Iguodala, sat him down and got him to buy in, they could've gone places.

[DMAVS41]

Harden said multiple times after the trade that he would've been perfectly fine playing in OKC alongside Durant/WB if he got his money. Watch the Grantland interview with KD and Harden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_mlKgftxCc

That's not all of it (Can't find the rest) but it shows you if they paid him like the Warriors paid Iguodala, sat him down and got him to buy in, they could've gone places.

If you think that...I think you are being incredibly naive. Not much else I can say.

This is a guy that wants to be hitting up LA clubs all summer and dating a Kardashian....wants to be on tv commercials and have huge deals (like anyone would)

You think he'd be cool playing 6th man on a team in OKC...okay...I just don't buy it for a second.

[GIF REACTION]

Roles and gameplan are great

But talent is talent

Talent finds a way to succeed

[DMAVS41]

Roles and gameplan are great

But talent is talent

Talent finds a way to succeed

Tell that to the Clippers...

[Young X]

No they don't...they don't grow as much as player with Harden still there. I don't know why you people can't grasp this. He would not have allowed those 3 guys to play at their optimal level...and would have continued to hurt the defense and need the ball way too often.

Blaming the WB injury on the Harden trade is too big of a stretch. For all we know...WB could have gotten hurt way worse if Harden was on the team...this just isn't a logical argument.

The 13 Thunder didn't need anything else. They had the best team when healthy.

Again, you are telling me...that if you were looking at the Thunder currently and Harden never played there...you would be thinking that the Thunder should trade for Harden?

There is no way you actually believe this...he makes so little sense on this team.

It's the moves after the Harden trade...combined with injuries...that have hurt the Thunder.What are the odds of that Beverly/Westbrook situation still happening if Harden doesn't go to the Rockets?

Houston & Beverly likely don't make the playoffs and face the Thunder in the 1st round.

Not to mention, it's extremely unlikely that a player who at the time never missed a single game in the NBA, college or high school (Westbrook) gets injured if everything plays out again.

HARDEN was the reason OKC reached the level they did in 2012. They went to a whole other level offensively with him on the floor. His ascension to star level was the difference.

With the way you talk about his fit on the Thunder you would swear they weren't 3 wins away from winning the championship. A couple different bounces in games 2, 3 and 4 and they probably beat Miami.

[GIF REACTION]

Tell that to the Clippers...
James Harden is an MVP level talent

Only Paul and Griffin are comparable

[DMAVS41]

What are the odds of that Beverly/Westbrook situation still happening if Harden doesn't go to the Rockets?

Houston & Beverly likely don't make the playoffs and face the Thunder in the 1st round.

Not to mention, it's extremely unlikely that a player who at the time never missed a single game in the NBA, college or high school (Westbrook) gets injured if everything plays out again.

HARDEN was the reason OKC reached the level they did in 2012. They went to a whole other level offensively with him on the floor. His ascension to star level was the difference.

With the way you talk about his fit on the Thunder you would swear they weren't 3 wins away from winning the championship. A couple different bounces in games 2, 3 and 4 and they probably beat Miami.

I'm not going to get into the injury stuff because that just isn't connected enough at all for me. I could just counter and say...what are the odds Harden is willing to take a back seat to WB/Durant long term and focuses on defense and provides the defense this team badly needed to actually win.

I don't act like they weren't close. I act like I was able to watch the team and see a team that I thought didn't make a lot of sense as it went forward because Harden wasn't well suited to play the 6th man.

Now, I'm really curious about some stuff from you here because you seem to not at all be consistent with your arguments.

You have held onto this belief that the Clippers have never had much of a chance to do anything in the playoffs because the talent doesn't fit together great and the defense just wasn't good enough. What did you say? I think you said something like;

"you have to be able to play championship level defense and consistently get stops against the best teams"

Something like that.

Then why are you so high on the Thunder? The 12 Thunder were the 2nd best offense and 11th best defense.

Why does that championship level defense not matter here?

Do you really think it's random that the Thunder went from having the 15th and 11th ranked defenses to the 4th and 6th ranked defenses after Harden left?

And what kind of players are you filling in around them with those 4 guys taking up all the cap with a notoriously cheap ownership group that doesn't want to pay tax?

[GIF REACTION]

2012 was a very frantic lockout season

I don't know if you can hang the defense all on Harden

[warriorfan]

Harden isn't a lead man starting player

doesn't have the defense nor consistent level of energy

he is best suited as 6th man of the year where you can limit his minutes on court and get him to feast on second units

[dhsilv]

The Warriors are nothing like the Thunder would be with WB, Durant, and Harden. The Warriors have one ball dominant player...the Thunder would have 3. It's nothing like it...and the defense would be a disaster in OKC with those 3 playing big minutes.

The Heat made it work because of defense...and because Bosh took a large back seat that nobody on the Thunder ultimately would have.

The Thunder did screw up...it just wasn't the Harden trade. It was Presti riding with Fisher/Butler in 14 when there were so many solid sg's out there that could have helped and were definitely attainable.

They screwed up with the Waiters pick up...probably the Kanter signing as well...although I'm more hopeful than most on this.

They look like they screwed up with Donovan at a coach as well.

The Harden trade actually set themselves up nicely. The best Thunder team to date has still been the 13 Thunder...can't blame Presti there...just fluke injury to WB.

But Presti ruined the 14 Thunder like I described above. Last year was ruined by the KD injury...and this year it looks like the combination of Waiters, Kanter, and Donovan....with still no sg that makes a ton of sense as a starter....are large problems.

But I don't get the Harden stuff anymore honestly. Now, I think Harden takes too much hate on here because he's a star player and what he's done in Houston is impressive, but I don't know who the **** can watch Harden these last 3 years and think he's well suited to play 3rd option on a team with WB/Durant that badly needs perimeter defense and off ball movement/shooting.

It just doesn't make sense at all. Maybe they should have traded WB, but one of them had to go...I don't see how everyone pretends otherwise. There were already chemistry issues and Harden, very clearly, wanted to be the man somewhere else.

Worse case sign him and then trade him for a better fit...you never pass on having a top 10 player in the game on your team unless you can get another top 10 guy.

[DMAVS41]

2012 was a very frantic lockout season

I don't know if you can hang the defense all on Harden

I'm not hanging it all on Harden...it's more the type of team they were going to have.

They were 15th the year before.

You just aren't having a very good defense going forward with Harden, Durant, and WB playing by far the most minutes on your team....even with a stud like Ibaka.

[dhsilv]

Harden isn't a lead man starting player

doesn't have the defense nor consistent level of energy

he is best suited as 6th man of the year where you can limit his minutes on court and get him to feast on second units

He just carried a team to the freaking conference finals...

This stuff has to stop. This is a top 5 nba player. When he's playing well, last year, he plays passable defense. He just proved he can be the ONLY play maker on a team that makes the "final four", in the west, and did so with his second best player hurt the entire season.

There's nothing wrong with not liking how he plays or just disliking him. But cut the crap on him not being a top tier player.

[DMAVS41]

Worse case sign him and then trade him for a better fit...you never pass on having a top 10 player in the game on your team unless you can get another top 10 guy.

That would have been another option...I'd have been fine with that.

Really disagree with the bold though...that makes no sense to me...I could think of plenty scenarios in which I wouldn't want another star back when I'm trading for my star player.

Also, I'm not sure Harden was a top 10 player in 12...he certainly didn't have the trade value around the league as a top 10 player.

Remember, he was not the Harden of the last few years...and he was coming off that horrid finals performance. Acting like everyone thought of him as a top 10 player is not accurate.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Dude...i'ts common knowledge natural born LOSERS like Harden, Howard, Deron Williams, Carmelo and Derrick Rose will NEVER win a ring..

[DMAVS41]

Harden isn't a lead man starting player

doesn't have the defense nor consistent level of energy

he is best suited as 6th man of the year where you can limit his minutes on court and get him to feast on second units

could not disagree more. I guess him carrying the Rockets to the 2nd best record in the West last year never happened.

[warriorfan]

I'm not hanging it all on Harden...it's more the type of team they were going to have.

They were 15th the year before.

You just aren't having a very good defense going forward with Harden, Durant, and WB playing by far the most minutes on your team....even with a stud like Ibaka.

with sefolosha, perkins and Ibaka you can have a good defense

[warriorfan]

Dude...i'ts common knowledge natural born LOSERS like Harden, Howard, Deron Williams, Carmelo and Derrick Rose will NEVER win a ring..

/end thread

[dhsilv]

[/B]

That would have been another option...I'd have been fine with that.

Really disagree with the bold though...that makes no sense to me...I could think of plenty scenarios in which I wouldn't want another star back when I'm trading for my star player.

Also, I'm not sure Harden was a top 10 player in 12...he certainly didn't have the trade value around the league as a top 10 player.

Remember, he was not the Harden of the last few years...and he was coming off that horrid finals performance. Acting like everyone thought of him as a top 10 player is not accurate.

He was clearly on a path to being the best shooting guard in the nba. I doubt they panicked over a bad playoff run, these are professionals, not fans. You just don't give up young talent like him, top 10 or top 25....doesn't matter.

[GIF REACTION]

Harden clearly fit with the team as apparent by 2012 season

His evolution to where he is now is as much as a personal evolution as it is role and minutes... He has gotten better since 2012, it is not just him playing more and being the focal point

And I think we would have saw that had he stayed in OKC

[DMAVS41]

He was clearly on a path to being the best shooting guard in the nba. I doubt they panicked over a bad playoff run, these are professionals, not fans. You just don't give up young talent like him, top 10 or top 25....doesn't matter.

What do you mean..."you don't just give up talent like that"...of course you do. Teams do it all the time.

So you were against the Wolves trading Love?

So...if you were building a team around WB, Durant, and Ibaka....you'd want to use most of the remainder of your cap on a ball dominant perimeter player that isn't good off the ball and doesn't play good defense?

You are telling me that is how you would build out that team?

Tell me this...would you rather have Klay Thompson or Harden next to WB/Durant?

[Young X]

I'm not going to get into the injury stuff because that just isn't connected enough at all for me. I could just counter and say...what are the odds Harden is willing to take a back seat to WB/Durant long term and focuses on defense and provides the defense this team badly needed to actually win.

I don't act like they weren't close. I act like I was able to watch the team and see a team that I thought didn't make a lot of sense as it went forward because Harden wasn't well suited to play the 6th man.

Now, I'm really curious about some stuff from you here because you seem to not at all be consistent with your arguments.

You have held onto this belief that the Clippers have never had much of a chance to do anything in the playoffs because the talent doesn't fit together great and the defense just wasn't good enough. What did you say? I think you said something like;

"you have to be able to play championship level defense and consistently get stops against the best teams"

Something like that.

Then why are you so high on the Thunder? The 12 Thunder were the 2nd best offense and 11th best defense.

Why does that championship level defense not matter here?It's not about me being so "high" on the '12 Thunder. It's just that they were 3 whole wins away from winning a title with a bunch of 23/24 year olds who were getting better.

They improved every season up to that point. There's just no real need to make any major changes like that. Let them develop and see where they take it.

And the whole defense thing...yeah you do have to be able to get stops to win a championship. OKC wasn't a great defensive team, but they were definitely better than the Clippers.

I also mentioned other things...like needing a bench that isn't bottom of the league level or reliable role players. The Clippers don't have either, they rely strictly on the offensive greatness of their core/starting lineup which will NEVER win a championship in a conference like this.

OKC on the other hand had an above average defense, a good bench and reliable role players (Harden/Collison).

[DMAVS41]

It's not about me being so "high" on the '12 Thunder. It's just that they were 3 whole wins away from winning a title with a bunch of 23/24 year olds who were getting better.

They improved every season up to that point. There's just no real need to make any major changes like that. Let them develop and see where they take it.

And the whole defense thing...yeah you do have to be able to get stops to win a championship. OKC wasn't a great defensive team, but they were definitely better than the Clippers.

I also mentioned other things...like needing a bench that isn't bottom of the league level or reliable role players. The Clippers don't have either, they rely strictly on the offensive greatness of their core/starting lineup which will NEVER win a championship in a conference like this.


But they weren't better than the Clippers actually. The defense, in relation to the league, was better for the Clippers than any of the Harden OKC teams that were contenders in 13 and 14. The Thunder were 15th and 11th those two years.

Again..who is filling out this roster with those 4 guys taking up nearly the entire cap with owners notorious for not wanting to pay the tax? So if having a deep team with a nice bench is important...how are they doing that with 4 guys taking up so much money?

If Harden was going to be willing to play 6th man and focus on defense...I totally agree. I would have signed him and not made any major changes. I just think he wasn't willing to do that...nor does he have the skillset to really do that.

Not to mention the issues that would have continued to grow about Harden vs WB as the late game team runner.

Side note...Lamb is starting look/play like the guy envisioned...maybe Brooks just couldn't figure out how to use him because he was such an idiot when it came to x's and o's...

[Springsteen]

Dude...i'ts common knowledge natural born LOSERS like Harden, Howard, Deron Williams, Carmelo and Derrick Rose will NEVER win a ring..

As a top dog, for sure. But as a 3rd or 2nd option on the right team like past superstars have done, defenitely.

[SwishSquared]

The trade was a disaster because they got a bad return on a guy who was a top 5 player last year. A 1-year rental of a C&S 3rd/4th option (Martin), a young wing they never properly utilized (Lamb), an average starting C (Adams), and a 3rd big man (McGary). Any team in the league would reject that return for Harden.

Now, the pieces fit much better in 2012-2013 because Martin was happy to wait in the corner for open 3s and play his role off the bench. The larger problem, the one that DMAVS41 is referencing, was that the Harden trade precipitated a series of bad moves, aside from mostly drafting the right guys with their picks (McGary over Hood in 2014 was a mistake imo, especially since they traded to get Kanter last year). Adams is a nice piece to have because Perkins was so awful. McGary is one of those guys who plays all-out for ~20mpg and serves as a plus offensively against 2nd units.

The smart move, as has been stated in this thread, would have been to pay him the amount he wanted and to seek a trade at a later time. A young, improving guy on a multi-year deal through his peak has more value than one who's expiring on his rookie deal.

A big problem was that teams did not want to give up much for Harden because they knew OKC was in a bind. Washington didn't give up Beal and GSW wouldn't trade Klay. They waited too long to trade him without an extension and didn't wait long enough for his value to build back up (theoretically if they locked him up).

I understand in terms of roster construction it made sense for OKC to not have its top 3 players all play on the wing (same basic reason they got rid of Reggie Jackson), but the return they got was bad.

And they didn't make proper use of the return in order to justify the trade. It's fine to let Martin walk after he expired (he was awful once WB got hurt), but not doing anything to replace his production was stupid. And I think you can actually include that subsequent decision as part of the evaluation of the Harden trade. They let their Harden replacement, positionally speaking, go in a S&T and didn't properly use that exception iirc.

[GIF REACTION]

Talent on the level of KD, Westbrook and Harden might not put up the tightest regular season or SRS, but teams with this much talent generally find themselves deep in the playoffs... You think 2011 Miami was talent freaky? OKC could have been next level shit.

Talent finds a way to win. This is even more so true in the playoffs.

[dhsilv]

What do you mean..."you don't just give up talent like that"...of course you do. Teams do it all the time.

So you were against the Wolves trading Love?

So...if you were building a team around WB, Durant, and Ibaka....you'd want to use most of the remainder of your cap on a ball dominant perimeter player that isn't good off the ball and doesn't play good defense?

You are telling me that is how you would build out that team?

Tell me this...would you rather have Klay Thompson or Harden next to WB/Durant?

Love was not going to resign, period. Harden was. You can trade for fair value. They basically gave him away.

I would not trade Harden for Klay.

[DMAVS41]

Swish...

It's actually a myth about the Warriors not wanting to give up Klay. Maybe they would have, but it was an impossible trade to work given their cap situation. It just wasn't possible.

You are right about the Beal situation iirc though.

I just don't see how you are connecting all those things back to the Harden trade.

Again, they were the best they ever had been in 13...without Harden. The 1 year rental of Martin worked perfectly. They wanted to remain a contender (they got better actually) and not get bogged down with Martin long term.

All Presti had to do was go out and get a guy like Afflalo in 14. He solves all of these issues. I don't see how it's connected when the Harden trade gave the Thunder the tools to go out and get Afflalo with ease.

Also, Presti losing his mind with Waiters imo...and then getting backed into a corner with Kanter aren't related either.

So I think that is where we disagree. The immediate return of 1 year of Martin, Lamb, what would be Adams...and another pick is very close to exactly what I would have wanted. Again though...I was very high on Lamb and Adams at the time.

What Presti has turned that into is the problem...both with the players and coaches it seems (Donovan really does look bad...I know it's early, but he looks terrible)

[DMAVS41]

Love was not going to resign, period. Harden was. You can trade for fair value. They basically gave him away.

I would not trade Harden for Klay.

So then you agree in certain situations you can make a trade in which you trade a top 10 player and don't require a top 10 player in return...right?

[Young X]

But they weren't better than the Clippers actually. The defense, in relation to the league, was better for the Clippers than any of the Harden OKC teams that were contenders in 13 and 14. The Thunder were 15th and 11th those two years.

Again..who is filling out this roster with those 4 guys taking up nearly the entire cap with owners notorious for not wanting to pay the tax? So if having a deep team with a nice bench is important...how are they doing that with 4 guys taking up so much money?

If Harden was going to be willing to play 6th man and focus on defense...I totally agree. I would have signed him and not made any major changes. I just think he wasn't willing to do that...nor does he have the skillset to really do that.

Not to mention the issues that would have continued to grow about Harden vs WB as the late game team runner.

Side note...Lamb is starting look/play like the guy envisioned...maybe Brooks just couldn't figure out how to use him because he was such an idiot when it came to x's and o's...I'm only talking about 2012, I don't think they were good enough in 2011. Their defense was above average to decent in 2012.

You believing Harden wouldn't have fit well going forward has more to do with potential ego issues am I right?

Because basketball wise, like I said, OKC went to another level with Harden on the court. I don't think you're realizing just how much he added to that team, he was HUGE for them especially for the playoffs.

Let me ask you something, had OKC kept Harden, what do you see them realistically doing in 2013?

[DMAVS41]

I'm only talking about 2012, I don't think they were good enough in 2011. Their defense was above average to decent in 2012.

You believing Harden wouldn't have fit well going forward has more to do with potential ego issues am I right?

Because basketball wise, like I said, OKC went to another level with Harden on the court. I don't think you're realizing how much he added to OKC, he was HUGE for that team especially for the playoffs,

Let me ask you something, had OKC kept Harden, what do you see them realistically doing in 2013?

In 2012 they had a worse defense in relation to the league than the 13 and 14 Clippers. That was my point.

It's for ego issues and basketball reasons.

In 13? I think they would have won the title if healthy with Harden. Just like I think they would have won the title without Harden if healthy.

You keep saying Harden added so much...I agree he helped that team a lot, but what you aren't realizing is that the 13 Thunder were just objectively better than the 12 Thunder.

You argument would be a lot stronger if they didn't just become a better team after Harden left...

[Spurs5Rings2014]

They don't even beat us in 2012 without Harden and make it to their only finals. Imagine how things would of turned out in 2014 with Harden on their team in the play offs.

[SwishSquared]

@DMAVS41, for brevity sake I won't quote...

I was going off the Klay stuff by memory- didn't realize GSW couldn't work it out from a cap standpoint.

However, Adams was not drafted until the season after the Harden trade. So it was a rental of Martin, Lamb (14th pick in 2012), a likely late lotto pick (it was), and the future Dallas pick (projected low 20s, which it was).

The mistake was not signing Harden in order to trade him later. They didn't maximize his value because teams knew OKC ownership was too cheap to extend him. All they had to do was extend him and trade him by the deadline to avoid the tax for that season. That alone was a terrible decision that makes this trade all-time bad.

Again, the pieces fit better because Martin was content to play his role and Harden wasn't content to play 3rd fiddle long-term. I'm not arguing that at all.

Would the Pacers trade PG for Cam Payne, Anthony Morrow, the Suns 2016 first, and the Bulls 2017 first? That's essentially the type of return OKC netted for Harden. I know there are stylistic differences in the players and contract situations but that's a decent analog imo.

I think you can absolutely connect not replacing Martin in summer 2013 to the Harden trade, given that their Harden replacement left for a TPE sufficient enough that allowed them to send out 1 rookie scale contract + picks to replace Martin (this is the Affalo trade you've discussed so frequently).

The trade worked for the 2012-2013 season as they surely would have been in the WCF. However, I don't understand how not evaluating what Presti did with the other pieces of the trade can't be utilized to criticize the return. Presti could have gotten a Martin-type at the deadline that season if he waited to trade Harden, fresh off an extension, until then.

It's like how we knew the Nets trade was bad when it received KG/Pierce/Terry back in 2013. Now we think it's even worse knowing how bad the Nets' outlook is. Why can't we evaluate the Harden trade the same way?

Edit: My bad on these typos, fixing them now...

Edit2: Also noteworthy is that if they extended Harden, then he would have carried a larger cap number in trades that season. Could have targeted a bigger contract guy prior to the deadline, preferably somebody on a multi-year deal.

[Fallen Angel]

Potential ego? :lol

He's turned into a star player in the league, at 26 are you expecting him to not be selfish in a system built for him and on a team where nobody is on his level offensively?

What star player in the history of the league wasn't selfish in their prime? Lebron dominated the ball, Kobe dominated the ball, Jordan dominated the ball, Wade dominated the ball, Carmelo dominated the ball, Durant dominated the ball, Westbrook dominated the ball, McGrady dominated the ball, Iverson dominated the ball.

The only thing with Harden is that he's leading his team as it's best scorer and distributor, and he did that while winning 50+ games in the toughest division the league has seen in a decade.

But let's criticize him for being selfish...
What an egomaniac....

[Fallen Angel]

If Harden was stuck in the sixth man role he would have never developed the confidence of being a lead man in the league, so he wouldn't have developed an ego.

Look at Ginobili and look at Harden. One believed in the system and one became the system.

[GIF REACTION]

Harden makes the team better 2013 on-wards

Period

Even in their 2012-2013 season

We are talking about him fitting, when we already know that he did fit

We can talk about Egos but they were all getting plenty of looks and if they're winning (which they are) everything is better

Durant doesn't need the ball as much as we think... Harden and Westbrook are getting their touches

[dhsilv]

So then you agree in certain situations you can make a trade in which you trade a top 10 player and don't require a top 10 player in return...right?

hmm, I'm not sure I can agree. You can trade a top 10 guy, but you just have to get equal talent back. Outside of maybe a guy who is just cancer for the team...

[DMAVS41]

@DMAVS41, for brevity sake I won't quote...

I was going off the Klay stuff by memory- didn't realize GSW couldn't work it out from a cap standpoint.

However, Adams was not drafted until the season after the Harden trade. So it was a rental of Martin, Lamb (14th pick in 2012), a likely late lotto pick (it was), and the future Dallas pick (projected low 20s, which it was).

The mistake was not signing Harden in order to trade him later. They didn't maximize his value because teams knew OKC ownership was too cheap to extend him. All they had to do was trade him and trade him by the deadline to avoid the tax for that season. That alone was a terrible decision that makes this trade all-time bad.

Again, the pieces fit better because Martin was content to play his role and Harden wasn't content to play 3rd fiddle long-term. I'm not arguing that at all.

Would the Pacers trade PG for Cam Payne, Anthony Morrow, the Suns 2016 first, and the Bulls 2017 first? That's essentially the type of return OKC netted for Harden. I know there are stylistic differences in the players and contract situations but that's a decent analog imo.

I think you can absolutely connect not replacing Martin in summer 2013 to the Harden trade, given that their Harden replacement left for a TPE sufficient enough that allowed them would have allowed them to send out 1 rookie scale contract + picks to replace Martin (this is Affalo trade you've discussed so frequently).

The trade worked for the 2012-2013 season as they surely would have been in the WCF. However, I don't understand not evaluating what Presti did with the other pieces of the trade can't be utilized to criticize the return. Presti could have gotten a Martin-type at the deadline that season if he waited to trade Harden, fresh off an extension, until then.

It's like how we knew the Nets trade was bad when it received KG/Pierce/Terry back in 2013. Now we think it's even worse knowing how bad the Nets' outlook is. Why can't we evaluate the Harden trade the same way?


To me...it's not connected because all Presti has to do is not be a moron...and make a move for an Afflalo or other viable sg...and nobody would be saying much honestly. You have to admit Presti got a bit unlucky and made some terrible mistakes since. If you tell me I have to agree that Presti not making quality moves since the trade is connected, then sure...I'm right there with you that it was a terrible trade. I just view it differently. I don't view the mistakes Presti has made after 13 as directly related to a trade before the 13 season.

I mean...you can't get a star back because then you don't have any money left. So the Thunder were kind of in a tough spot. The owners didn't want him amnestying Perkins...which was another obvious move as well.

So what more do you want than a place holder for a year, two lottery picks, and a late first rounder. That is kind of what I'd want in the situation the Thunder were in.

I'd have been fine with signing him and then moving him at some point in the season...but I understand why Presti wouldn't want to start a season and then make a change in the middle of it.

[DMAVS41]

hmm, I'm not sure I can agree. You can trade a top 10 guy, but you just have to get equal talent back. Outside of maybe a guy who is just cancer for the team...

So. Tell me this.

Let's say Harden was on the Thunder right now and they were a very good team, but that perimeter defense just wasn't good enough...and there were some issues with Harden, WB, and Durant all needing the ball a lot...

And the Warriors called and said they'd give you Klay for Harden...you would turn that down?

[DMAVS41]

Potential ego? :lol

He's turned into a star player in the league, at 26 are you expecting him to not be selfish in a system built for him and on a team where nobody is on his level offensively?

What star player in the history of the league wasn't selfish in their prime? Lebron dominated the ball, Kobe dominated the ball, Jordan dominated the ball, Wade dominated the ball, Carmelo dominated the ball, Durant dominated the ball, Westbrook dominated the ball, McGrady dominated the ball, Iverson dominated the ball.

The only thing with Harden is that he's leading his team as it's best scorer and distributor, and he did that while winning 50+ games in the toughest division the league has seen in a decade.

But let's criticize him for being selfish...
What an egomaniac....

I'm not criticizing Harden at all here. I just think he's better suited to be the lead guy on a team than play 6th man on a team that already has two of the best perimeter scorers and ball dominant guys in the league.

[Young X]

In 2012 they had a worse defense in relation to the league than the 13 and 14 Clippers. That was my point.

It's for ego issues and basketball reasons.

In 13? I think they would have won the title if healthy with Harden. Just like I think they would have won the title without Harden if healthy.

You keep saying Harden added so much...I agree he helped that team a lot, but what you aren't realizing is that the 13 Thunder were just objectively better than the 12 Thunder.

You argument would be a lot stronger if they didn't just become a better team after Harden left...Well in 2013, any chances the Clippers had at a championship were ruined with Griffin's injury in the playoffs and we both agree that the 2014 Clippers were possibly good enough, though it was unlikely so...

And why wouldn't the Thunder be healthy in 2013 with Harden? Westbrook and Durant hadn't had any injuries up to that point.

[dhsilv]

So. Tell me this.

Let's say Harden was on the Thunder right now and they were a very good team, but that perimeter defense just wasn't good enough...and there were some issues with Harden, WB, and Durant all needing the ball a lot...

And the Warriors called and said they'd give you Klay for Harden...you would turn that down?

There is no scenario ever that klay is acceptable for harden. If harden had career changing injuries, I guess then I'd consider it.

[SwishSquared]

To me...it's not connected because all Presti has to do is not be a moron...and make a move for an Afflalo or other viable sg...and nobody would be saying much honestly. You have to admit Presti got a bit unlucky and made some terrible mistakes since.

I mean...you can't get a star back because then you don't have any money left. So the Thunder were kind of in a tough spot. The owners didn't want him amnestying Perkins...which was another obvious move as well.

So what more do you want than a place holder for a year, two lottery picks, and a late first rounder. That is kind of what I'd want in the situation the Thunder were in.

I'd have been fine with signing him and then moving him at some point in the season...but I understand why Presti wouldn't want to start a season and then make a change in the middle of it.Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree on the "connection" part b/c I don't either of us will budge on it.

Presti mishandled the trade, which was the first step in mishandling subsequent trades and signings (which you clearly have articulated). I just think if we say "all Presti has to do is not be a moron" post-trade, then we can lump in the trade with part of him making dumb moves.

He could have fired Brooks sooner to find somebody who could better utilize Lamb or actually play small since it was to their advantage. I think we both would agree Lamb was supposed to be their Kevin Martin replacement. It's in the East, but Lamb has basically never played better than he has for Charlotte. And that's just with 1 training camp with Clifford.

It's definitely a tough spot to operate from, but ownership forced him to show his hand and the rest of the league took no pity. For example, what if they traded Harden at the deadline and got a package based on Affalo in return? That's pure speculation but would have been a better trade. I also understand him maybe not wanting to trade mid-season, but the Waiters and Kanter moves show that he's willing to do that if he thinks it benefits the team.

I just refer back to that hypothetical Paul George trade- no way they take that package for a guy who's a stud. Portland would reject that for Lillard, who's maybe a better example (ball dominant guard who's awful on D).

It's almost like though that Presti hasn't lost his drafting knack since that trade but his brain has frozen in regards to other moves.

I understand your point for why you think we can't connect things back to the trade but I don't agree with it, which is totally fine.

[DMAVS41]

Well in 2013, any chances the Clippers had at a championship were ruined with Griffin's injury in the playoffs and we both agree that the 2014 Clippers were possibly good enough, though it was unlikely so...

And why wouldn't the Thunder be healthy in 2013 with Harden? Westbrook and Durant hadn't had any injuries up to that point.

We've been over this...I'm not going to blame the Harden trade for WB getting hurt. I know you do...maybe you are right.

But it's just not connected enough to pretend like I know what the universe would be like if Harden was never traded. For all I know...WB dies in a car crash or something in this alternate universe.

[DMAVS41]

Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree on the "connection" part b/c I don't either of us will budge on it.

Presti mishandled the trade, which was the first step in mishandling subsequent trades and signings (which you clearly have articulated). I just think if we say "all Presti has to do is not be a moron" post-trade, then we can lump in the trade with part of him making dumb moves.

He could have fired Brooks sooner to find somebody who could better utilize Lamb or actually play small since it was to their advantage. I think we both would agree Lamb was supposed to be their Kevin Martin replacement. It's in the East, but Lamb has basically never played better than he has for Charlotte. And that's just with 1 training camp with Clifford.

It's definitely a tough spot to operate from, but ownership forced him to show his hand and the rest of the league took no pity. For example, what if they traded Harden at the deadline and got a package based on Affalo in return? That's pure speculation but would have been a better trade. I also understand him maybe not wanting to trade mid-season, but the Waiters and Kanter moves show that he's willing to do that if he thinks it benefits the team.

I just refer back to that hypothetical Paul George trade- no way they take that package for a guy who's a stud. Portland would reject that for Lillard, who's maybe a better example (ball dominant guard who's awful on D).

It's almost like though that Presti hasn't lost his drafting knack since that trade but his brain has frozen in regards to other moves.

I understand your point for why you think we can't connect things back to the trade but I don't agree with it, which is totally fine.

I'd budge if I thought it was connected or Presti told me it was connected. Sure...I'd budge.

Where we seem to disagree is in the actual trade itself. I don't that trade is a bad trade in and of itself.

Precisely because building through the draft with players on rookie scale contracts was really the only way for that team to get better. The owners weren't gonna pay the tax and they said no to the potential amnesty of Perkins.

That just kind of puts Presti in a tough spot...especially when working a trade with a max extension Harden is far easier said than done. We've already been over the Klay and Beal situations. So it's not like there were a lot of players that made a ton sense just out there for the taking.

So, to me, getting a player on an expiring contract that allows you to improve your team, 2 lottery picks, and another first rounder for Harden is pretty much what you want given the conditions Presti was in.

It also sets himself up to make future moves...that set up is what is important to me...not the result of that set up. I think that is where we are disagreeing as well.

The mere fact that the trade opened up options for Presti in a number of ways is how I would judge the trade...I don't judge the initial trade on what Presti ended up doing with those options...

[DMAVS41]

There is no scenario ever that klay is acceptable for harden. If harden had career changing injuries, I guess then I'd consider it.

Can't disagree more.

You put klay next to WB and Durant and your team makes so much more sense in terms of fit and role...and you get way better defensively.

And you save money on the cap because Klay is cheaper.

I'd trade Harden for Klay immediately in the scenario I gave you...

[dhsilv]

Can't disagree more.

You put klay next to WB and Durant and your team makes so much more sense in terms of fit and role...and you get way better defensively.

And you save money on the cap because Klay is cheaper.

I'd trade Harden for Klay immediately in the scenario I gave you...

I'm not nearly as big a fan of klay as you are it seems, add in today we know both durant and westbrook are injury risks, so all the more reason I'd never do that.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not nearly as big a fan of klay as you are it seems, add in today we know both durant and westbrook are injury risks, so all the more reason I'd never do that.

I doubt it's that as I'm not super high on Klay.

It's just more what kind of team you will have with Klay vs what kind of team you'll have with Harden.

Klay makes so much more sense next to Durant and WB. He's literally the perfect 2 guard...you couldn't make one in a laboratory much better than Klay for what that team needs.

[dhsilv]

I doubt it's that as I'm not super high on Klay.

It's just more what kind of team you will have with Klay vs what kind of team you'll have with Harden.

Klay makes so much more sense next to Durant and WB. He's literally the perfect 2 guard...you couldn't make one in a laboratory much better than Klay for what that team needs.

If I were to trade harden I'd be looking for a big to be honest. Just no way I'd trade for klay.

[DMAVS41]

If I were to trade harden I'd be looking for a big to be honest. Just no way I'd trade for klay.

What big?

And I'm not saying Klay for Harden is the only trade...my scenario is asking simply would you rather have Klay or Harden next to WB/Durant....assuming there isn't some other perfect trade looming.

It's more like...you've tried everything else...would you trade Harden for Klay as the Thunder.

Because it's related back to your point about never trading a top 10 guy for not a top 10 player.

[SwishSquared]

I'd budge if I thought it was connected or Presti told me it was connected. Sure...I'd budge.

Where we seem to disagree is in the actual trade itself. I don't that trade is a bad trade in and of itself.

Precisely because building through the draft with players on rookie scale contracts was really the only way for that team to get better. The owners weren't gonna pay the tax and they said no to the potential amnesty of Perkins.

That just kind of puts Presti in a tough spot...especially when working a trade with a max extension Harden is far easier said than done. We've already been over the Klay and Beal situations. So it's not like there were a lot of players that made a ton sense just out there for the taking.

So, to me, getting a player on an expiring contract that allows you to improve your team, 2 lottery picks, and another first rounder for Harden is pretty much what you want given the conditions Presti was in.

It also sets himself up to make future moves...that set up is what is important to me...not the result of that set up. I think that is where we are disagreeing as well.

The mere fact that the trade opened up options for Presti in a number of ways is how I would judge the trade...I don't judge the initial trade on what Presti ended up doing with those options...Ah, ok I see where we ultimately disagree. I lump in the evaluation of the "future set up" with the actual trade itself. I might be unique, or not, in doing so, but I think that's a better way to rate the trade because in order to succeed in a trade, you must max out everything you receive. I get why you separate evaluating the trade from the "future set-up" to other moves, though.

In a vacuum, receiving a rookie taken at end of lotto, a future late lotto pick, late first, and very complementary player on an expiring contract seems like a really good return for a disgruntled guy who wants out. The reality is that the return didn't nearly live up to that billing and Harden was much better as "the man" immediately than most thought. Thus I rate the trade worse than you do. Again, I reference that fake trade- it's bad value.

We can agree though that they didn't max out the "extra" pieces, aka the non-Martin pieces? I grade the trade as being worse ultimately because of that. I know that you grade each move separately, but that hopefully better explains why in this case I don't.

One way of thinking about this trade is thinking about it from Houston's perspective, which we haven't discussed: they traded a guy they didn't want any longer in Martin (they included him in the original CP3 trade in 2011 and weren't re-signing him), a rookie, and two future picks that they accumulated solely for purpose of packaging them in a trade, even if one was likely late lotto.

That sounds like a homerun evaluating it from Houston's perspective. Trades can be homeruns for both sides, but Houston gave up very little in essence for a top 5 player. Wasn't Harden top 20 in summer 2012? Even then, that's a bad return imo for a guy like that.

I ultimately don't have a problem with trading Harden, but rather they traded him a few months too soon (but they had to sign him to an extension first). His cap # would be the average of his new extension + last season of his rookie deal, which lowers that number for trades some. That's all. I still think they get that exact same trade from Houston at the deadline worst-case scenario.

[Young X]

We've been over this...I'm not going to blame the Harden trade for WB getting hurt. I know you do...maybe you are right.

But it's just not connected enough to pretend like I know what the universe would be like if Harden was never traded. For all I know...WB dies in a car crash or something in this alternate universe.It's not really about blaming, it's just reality.

If Harden stays on OKC in 2013, they likely stay healthy (all 3 never had any history with injuries up to that point) and make a title run. They beat the Spurs the year before which Harden was a big part of and Miami looked weak with Wade and Bosh playing terrible.

I know you don't think it's connected and maybe this is a flawed way of looking at it but you can't assume Westbrook still gets injured when:

a) the player that injured him very likely wouldn't have even been in the playoffs facing him

b) he was on pace to being a Stockton/Malone level ironman up to that point. He was literally the last player you would assume an injury would happen to at the time.

Not to mention that if Westbrook does get injured, they still have Harden who can step up and help make up for his loss which his replacement Kevin Martin did not do.

[DMAVS41]

Ah, ok I see where we ultimately disagree. I lump in the evaluation of the "future set up" with the actual trade itself. I might be unique, or not, in doing so, but I think that's a better way to rate the trade because in order to succeed in a trade, you must max out everything you receive. I get why you separate evaluating the trade from the "future set-up" to other moves, though.

In a vacuum, receiving a rookie taken at end of lotto, a future late lotto pick, late first, and very complementary player on an expiring contract seems like a really good return for a disgruntled guy who wants out. The reality is that the return didn't nearly live up to that billing and Harden was much better as "the man" immediately than most thought. Thus I rate the trade worse than you do. Again, I reference that fake trade- it's bad value.

We can agree though that they didn't max out the "extra" pieces, aka the non-Martin pieces? I grade the trade as being worse ultimately because of that. I know that you grade each move separately, but that hopefully better explains why in this case I don't.

One way of thinking about this trade is thinking about it from Houston's perspective, which we haven't discussed: they traded a guy they didn't want any longer in Martin (they included him in the original CP3 trade in 2011 and weren't re-signing him), a rookie, and two future picks that they accumulated solely for purpose of packaging them in a trade, even if one was likely late lotto.

That sounds like a homerun evaluating it from Houston's perspective. Trades can be homeruns for both sides, but Houston gave up very little in essence for a top 5 player. Wasn't Harden top 20 in summer 2012? Even then, that's a bad return imo for a guy like that.

I ultimately don't have a problem with trading Harden, but rather they traded him a few months too soon (but they had to sign him to an extension first). His cap # would be the average of his new extension + last season of his rookie deal, which lowers that number for trades some. That's all. I still think they get that exact same trade from Houston at the deadline worst-case scenario.

Exactly. Like I said...if I evaluated it like you do...we are very close in agreement on this.

In terms of the Houston perspective...this happens to be one of those scenarios in which it really was always going to be somewhat lopsided because of what the Thunder were going for.

Harden wasn't worth a top pick in the draft yet around the league...and even if he was...the teams that had them didn't have the assets to make it work like the Rockets did, the Thunder were working under certain constraints (as you rightly point out the league knew about), matching salaries was difficult...etc.

But that is kind of what is just going to happen when you are trading a superstar that the league doesn't view as a superstar yet. It's very hard to get equal value in most cases...let alone the case the Thunder found themselves in.

[dunksby]

Got rid of a choking loser, good riddance.

[DMAVS41]

It's not really about blaming, it's just reality.

If Harden stays on OKC in 2013, they likely stay healthy (all 3 never had any history with injuries up to that point) and make a title run. They beat the Spurs the year before which Harden was a big part of and Miami looked weak with Wade and Bosh playing terrible.

I know you don't think it's connected and maybe this is a flawed way of looking at it but you can't assume Westbrook still gets injured when:

a) the player that injured him very likely wouldn't have even been in the playoffs facing him

b) he was on pace to being a Stockton/Malone level ironman up to that point. He was literally the last player you would assume an injury would happen to at the time.

Not to mention that if Westbrook does get injured, they still have Harden who can step up and help make up for his loss which his replacement Kevin Martin did not do.

I get the argument. It's just not compelling for me.

[dhsilv]

What big?

And I'm not saying Klay for Harden is the only trade...my scenario is asking simply would you rather have Klay or Harden next to WB/Durant....assuming there isn't some other perfect trade looming.

It's more like...you've tried everything else...would you trade Harden for Klay as the Thunder.

Because it's related back to your point about never trading a top 10 guy for not a top 10 player.

Yeah, I'll take Harden with his defensive issues over Klay with those two guys. To be honest I'd rather just have durant play completely off ball. I think he'd be deadly with those two dominating the ball and running pick and rolls. Not to mention there's just no way to hide a poor defender. They've a big combo outside. Honestly I love that team even with the issue of one ball and Harden's weak (all be it over blown) defense.

[SwishSquared]

Exactly. Like I said...if I evaluated it like you do...we are very close in agreement on this.

In terms of the Houston perspective...this happens to be one of those scenarios in which it really was always going to be somewhat lopsided because of what the Thunder were going for.

Harden wasn't worth a top pick in the draft yet around the league...and even if he was...the teams that had them didn't have the assets to make it work like the Rockets did, the Thunder were working under certain constraints (as you rightly point out the league knew about), matching salaries was difficult...etc.

But that is kind of what is just going to happen when you are trading a superstar that the league doesn't view as a superstar yet. It's very hard to get equal value in most cases...let alone the case the Thunder found themselves in.You're right- we're pretty close in agreement on this, especially since we're on the same page on what Presti should have done post-trade (even down to advocating for trading for Affalo).

I didn't expect them to get equal value, but the fact that they couldn't land an above average starting SG on a decent contract for him still surprises me.

I assign lots of blame to the owners, who simply went over the line imo in not allowing Presti to do his job. I get it's a business but they didn't understand trade leverage in the NBA. But Presti did fold pretty quick, and that's why I mentioned extending + trading later.

Good convo :cheers:

As an aside- had they gotten Klay for Harden this team would be humming. He's basically what they've wanted in a 2-guard ever since Harden left. If they had an Aminu-type to slide in as the nominal PF, they'd have a really potent small ball lineup to close out games.

[DMAVS41]

You're right- we're pretty close in agreement on this, especially since we're on the same page on what Presti should have done post-trade (even down to advocating for trading for Affalo).

I didn't expect them to get equal value, but the fact that they couldn't land an above average starting SG on a decent contract for him still surprises me.

I assign lots of blame to the owners, who simply went over the line imo in not allowing Presti to do his job. I get it's a business but they didn't understand trade leverage in the NBA. But Presti did fold pretty quick, and that's why I mentioned extending + trading later.

Good convo :cheers:

As an aside- had they gotten Klay for Harden this team would be humming. He's basically what they've wanted in a 2-guard ever since Harden left. If they had an Aminu-type to slide in as the nominal PF, they'd have a really potent small ball lineup to close out games.

Yea, I'm not against the signing and trading later...I just said I understand Presti wanting to start the season without that looming over him and the team.

Talks got pretty heated as well during these contract negotiations and Harden definitely had his feelings hurt...so you have to wonder what it would have been like early on even if he had signed.

I think they tried to get the type of sg's you are talking about...I'm just not sure how many there were out there on decent contracts that could make the math work with Harden's max extension. Klay wasn't possible and they Wiz shut them down on Beal if reports were accurate. What other sg's were out there. Afflalo and Wes Matthews both make a lot of sense. Did Denver/Portland have the assets the Thunder wanted? Could they make the numbers match? Derozan isn't a good fit imo. Redick would be a nice fit...and Orlando definitely would have traded him as they traded him the next year, but I think he was making around 6 million back then and making the money work without adding a bad contract might have been tough.

Like I said...I get all these opinions on how bad the trade was. I do...but it's not that easy sometimes to make shit happen...especially when your ownership group is handcuffing you in certain key areas.

My god...could you imagine WB, Klay, Durant, Aminu, and Ibaka? Jesus...

[SwishSquared]

Yea, I'm not against the signing and trading later...I just said I understand Presti wanting to start the season without that looming over him and the team.

Talks got pretty heated as well during these contract negotiations and Harden definitely had his feelings hurt...so you have to wonder what it would have been like early on even if he had signed.

I think they tried to get the type of sg's you are talking about...I'm just not sure how many there were out there on decent contracts that could make the math work with Harden's max extension. Klay wasn't possible and they Wiz shut them down on Beal if reports were accurate. What other sg's were out there. Afflalo and Wes Matthews both make a lot of sense. Did Denver/Portland have the assets the Thunder wanted? Could they make the numbers match? Derozan isn't a good fit imo. Redick would be a nice fit...and Orlando definitely would have traded him as they traded him the next year, but I think he was making around 6 million back then and making the money work without adding a bad contract might have been tough.

Like I said...I get all these opinions on how bad the trade was. I do...but it's not that easy sometimes to make shit happen...especially when your ownership group is handcuffing you in certain key areas.

My god...could you imagine WB, Klay, Durant, Aminu, and Ibaka? Jesus...I can't recall what the contracts these guys were on/years/etc but Wes/Reddick/Affalo all would have been amazing picks ups.

I think if he signed a true max extension (I guess it would have been for 4 years if OKC signed him to it), then his # in trades would have been in the $13-14M range. That makes it tougher to find a trade partner or any sort of combo of players in a package, but Houston ended up having to salary-match something close to that number anyway (fwiw Martin made over $12M that year). Idk how to retroactively find rosters/salaries in a convenient way, other than looking up old rosters and individual salaries year-by-year, which I don't care to do haha.

This is speculation, but if OKC signed him to that deal and quietly shopped him once he was trade-eligible, then the offers may have been better. OKC would have had more leverage since they had a top 20 guy locked up long term worst-case.

But Presti, it seems, was truly handcuffed. Maybe ownership mandated to trade him before the season started, idk. If that was the case, my entire argument is moot.

And that small ball lineup could contend with GSW's small ball lineup haha. And it would be glorious to watch. I thought a few years ago Thad Young made sense as like a 7th man on OKC when they went small for a similar reason (though I like Aminu over him now, esp considering the contracts).

[DMAVS41]

I can't recall what the contracts these guys were on/years/etc but Wes/Reddick/Affalo all would have been amazing picks ups.

I think if he signed a true max extension (I guess it would have been for 4 years if OKC signed him to it), then his # in trades would have been in the $13-14M range. That makes it tougher to find a trade partner or any sort of combo of players in a package, but Houston ended up having to salary-match something close to that number anyway (fwiw Martin made over $12M that year). Idk how to retroactively find rosters/salaries in a convenient way, other than looking up old rosters and individual salaries year-by-year, which I don't care to do haha.

This is speculation, but if OKC signed him to that deal and quietly shopped him once he was trade-eligible, then the offers may have been better. OKC would have had more leverage since they had a top 20 guy locked up long term worst-case.

But Presti, it seems, was truly handcuffed. Maybe ownership mandated to trade him before the season started, idk. If that was the case, my entire argument is moot.

And that small ball lineup could contend with GSW's small ball lineup haha. And it would be glorious to watch. I thought a few years ago Thad Young made sense as like a 7th man on OKC when they went small for a similar reason (though I like Aminu over him now, esp considering the contracts).


My guess, would be that the owners basically said he either agrees to our offer or we want him gone. And I think the point of no return was probably when the deadline was set...

We learned after the fact that Harden's feelings were hurt and wanted to be valued more (can't blame him)...and I just wonder if any chance to agree to terms after that point was realistic.

Because I agree...it would have most likely been best to sign him and then trade him. I see some potential pitfalls with that approach, but you probably get a better return that way.

I know Wes wasn't making much back then, Redick was at around 6 million, and I think AA was at around 7.5 million.

I'm not trying to claim Presti was without fault on this deal, but I'm just wondering how many realistic deals were actually out there. Like you said, Martin's contract made the deal far easier than the guys above would...and the Rockets had the things the Thunder were really after. I don't remember if those other teams did.

Regardless, what I know we can agree upon fully...is just how poorly the Thunder have handled shit since that 13 season. Going into the playoffs in 14...with Fisher/Butler playing that many minutes is an all time disgrace from a team building standpoint...made even worse by Presti having all the tools necessary to make a deal.

And some of it is bad luck. I truly believe they win it in 13, kinda easily with a healthy WB...and I think they win it in 14 with AA instead of Fisher/Butler.

Either way...if Durant leaves...ugh...sickening to think that 12 was the pinnacle.

[SwishSquared]

Yeah I remember that Wes also was making similar money to JJ b/c he was in the middle of that $35M/5 year deal with Portland. I can't remember what other players/contracts those teams had at the time, though, so I can't honestly piece together fake trade packages.

I listened to a podcast recently where the guest said that Harden was being a diva behind the scenes in OKC and def wanted his own team. Houston is kinda catering to his offcourt diva baggage, as any team with a top talent would, but it didn't precipitate once he left OKC. There were hard feelings, for sure, especially after the negotiations broke down.

Maybe I'm being insensitive towards people's feeling here or am factually wrong, but I thought essentially OKC and Harden were < $2M annually apart when Presti made his final offer. That seems trivial when dealing with a guy this good that they couldn't work it out. For example, Klay wanted a max and GSW wanted to do right by him, but they compromised on an expected max amount for his extension instead of an "actual max" tied to % of the cap. It ended up likely saving GSW salary & tax payments this year.

I'm gonna ramble here, but I think ownership pushed him to trade him, even though it didn't make the most sense from a value standpoint (imo). I don't think the smarter ownership groups would have focused so narrowly on just ducking the tax and maximizing profits on a title contender. If they were overly concerned about that, they should have never relocated to a smaller market than Seattle. Plus, that team has been one of the more profitable organizations regardless.

Absolutely- Presti really, really botched building around KD/Russ/Ibaka since that 2013 summer. And you can't plan for injuries, but you can plan to not play bball dinosaurs in crunch time.

And trying to make up for those moves by trading for Waiters made little sense. I understood why they traded for Kanter, but having to pay him the max is a tough pill to swallow- especially when they wouldn't amnesty Perkins a few years ago.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah I remember that Wes also was making similar money to JJ b/c he was in the middle of that $35M/5 year deal with Portland. I can't remember what other players/contracts those teams had at the time, though, so I can't honestly piece together fake trade packages.

I listened to a podcast recently where the guest said that Harden was being a diva behind the scenes in OKC and def wanted his own team. Houston is kinda catering to his offcourt diva baggage, as any team with a top talent would, but it didn't precipitate once he left OKC. There were hard feelings, for sure, especially after the negotiations broke down.

Maybe I'm being insensitive towards people's feeling here or am factually wrong, but I thought essentially OKC and Harden were < $2M annually apart when Presti made his final offer. That seems trivial when dealing with a guy this good that they couldn't work it out. For example, Klay wanted a max and GSW wanted to do right by him, but they compromised on an expected max amount for his extension instead of an "actual max" tied to % of the cap. It ended up likely saving GSW salary & tax payments this year.

I'm gonna ramble here, but I think ownership pushed him to trade him, even though it didn't make the most sense from a value standpoint (imo). I don't think the smarter ownership groups would have focused so narrowly on just ducking the tax and maximizing profits on a title contender. If they were overly concerned about that, they should have never relocated to a smaller market than Seattle. Plus, that team has been one of the more profitable organizations regardless.

Absolutely- Presti really, really botched building around KD/Russ/Ibaka since that 2013 summer. And you can't plan for injuries, but you can plan to not play bball dinosaurs in crunch time.

And trying to make up for those moves by trading for Waiters made little sense. I understood why they traded for Kanter, but having to pay him the max is a tough pill to swallow- especially when they wouldn't amnesty Perkins a few years ago.


Hey Swish...I never saw this.

I think it was more than just money with Harden. I think Harden wanted a bigger role (despite what he said publicly)...I think there was more chemistry issues brewing between Harden/WB than we saw (even though we saw issues)

So I think it was a combination of basketball and money...and then once Harden was hurt by the negotiations...I really think it likely wasn't able to be repaired.

I'm curious though about something. We both agree that the Noel/lotto pick for Jrue Holiday was just a great trade for the Sixers.

Would your opinion change on that if both Noel and the lottery pick end up underperforming?

I ask because I feel like the way in which you evaluate the Harden trade is different than how you evaluate the Jrue trade....or maybe I'm just not understanding you.

Side not to this whole discussion...Jeremy Lamb has looked exactly like the player I always envisioned him to be in the NBA so far this season. I have no idea if it's a fluke, but he looks fantastic. He's shooting the ball well and working hard on defense...and he's playing 25 minutes a game on a team winning games.

It's so hilarious...if Lamb had never played on the Thunder...we'd all be thinking that Lamb would be a great fit on that team in a 20 to 25 minute a game role off the bench at guard.

I don't know if that speaks to him improving his game, Brooks being a bad coach, or WB/Durant being harder to play with...probably all of that, but that dude clearly has way more talent and ability then he was able to showcase in OKC.

Anyway...you just have to wonder if a better coach gets way more out of him earlier in his career...and that makes me wonder how a team core of WB, Durant, Ibaka, Adams, and Lamb...with the cap space to go out and get a near max player last summer would do going forward....with a guy like Brad Stevens.