Inside the paint, today's defenders must "follow" their man

[3ball]

Today's defender must follow their man around the paint to stay within "armslength", per the defensive 3 seconds rule.. If a defender's man leaves the paint, his man must follow him out of the paint to remain within "armslength".

"Armslength" is much closer than defenders were required to be in previous eras, when paint-camping was legal.. Defenders could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement... Accordingly, paint defenders in previous eras had more freedom - they didn't have "follow" their man to stay within armslength like today's defenders.
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[FKAri]

OP:

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/222661-2/Anonymous-mom.gif

[catch24]

OP:

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/222661-2/Anonymous-mom.gif

:roll:

[LikeMike]

Today's defender must follow their man around the paint to stay within "armslength", per the defensive 3 seconds rule.. If a defender's man leaves the paint, his man must follow him out of the paint to remain within "armslength".

"Armslength" is much closer than defenders were required to be in previous eras, where defenders could remain in the paint while their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint - so defenders could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement... Accordingly, paint defenders in previous eras had more freedom - they didn't have "follow" their man to stay within armslength like today's defenders.

You give Jordan fans a bad name.

[3ball]

This thread is just or reference purposes the next time some ignoramus brags about today's paint defense or says some dumb shit like "defenders had to 'follow' their man in previous eras".

When this happens, I'll quickly copy and paste the OP, which points out that today's defender must "follow" their man in the most important area of the floor: the paint..

Defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible other than making defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder... :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

In the 90's all players had to follow their man......everywhere.

/thread

[Hey Yo]

OP:

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/222661-2/Anonymous-mom.gif
LMAO!!

[3ball]

In the 90's all players had to follow their man......everywhere.

/thread


That's factually incorrect:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.



As you can see, defenders could remain in the paint while their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint - so defenders could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement, which is laughable - defenders must literally HUG their man...

Since you take everything literally, I know you're picturing a defender actually hugging his man... :roll:

[3ball]

In the 90's all players had to follow their man......everywhere.


Defenders in previous eras could remain in the paint when their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint.. This is pure fact (as shown in previous post) and proves your statement above is wrong.

Additionally - in today's game, defenders OUTSIDE the paint can sag off their man until they meet the paint, which is the same as previous eras - previous era defenders were allowed to sag off their man until they meet the paint as well.

The paint BLOCKS today's defenders who are outside the paint from being any further from their man than previous era defenders, shown in this thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390392).

[GIF REACTION]

Nope

They had to follow their man by LAW/the rules pre 2001, in the illegal defense era

It was in the rulebook

Look it up guys

[3ball]

Nope

They had to follow their man by LAW/the rules pre 2001, in the illegal defense era

It was in the rulebook

Look it up guys

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.



As you can see (unless you can't read), defenders could remain in the paint while their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint - so defenders could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement, which is laughable - defenders must literally HUG their man...

[GIF REACTION]

You know it's coming bro

You know it's coming

[GIF REACTION]

Rule Enforced Spacing
Rule Enforced Spacing relates to the offensive floor spacing teams achieved during the Illegal Defense period (1981-2001)

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book

The new wave of coaches made defenses sophisticated enough by 1981 that the league created an “illegal defense” rule to open up the paint. Here’s how referee Ed Rush explained it to SI: “We were becoming a jump-shot league, so we went to the coaches and said, ‘You’ve screwed the game with all your great defenses. Now fix it.’ And they did. The new rule will open up the middle and give the great players room to move. People like Julius Erving and David Thompson who used to beat their own defensive man and then still have to pull up for a jump shot because they were being double-teamed, should have an extra four or five feet to move around in. And that’s all those guys need.”

Effect:
1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds. (THIS IS THE CURRENT 3 seconds rule)
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9

The Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed teams to achieve spacing by simple positioning on the court and not actual shooting ability. The rules allowed them to do so. Today we know the value that the 3 point shot has with regards to opening the lane to the rim, yet in the 80's and 90's (before they shortened the 3pt line) the league average ranged from 2 3pters a game, to 10. How were these teams able to be such efficient offenses without having shooters to spread the half court? The Rules enforced, allowed them to do so... Commonly known as the ISO, or Clear-out, that commentators would mention at the time.

DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE SPACING, THIS MADE THESE PLAYS EFFICIENT AND LEGITIMATE AS A CONSISTENT MEANS OF SCORING

http://i.imgur.com/UZg8H99.gif
Barkley is allowed easy post position and entry due to section C of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (CANNOT DOUBLE SOMEONE OFF-BALL) and has the lane open to work his post moves, as his team mates are situated in a spread manner, kind of like today where shooters hang at the 3pt line to space the floor, except these guys are not 3pt shooters... Simply providing positioning to achieve appropriate spacing for Barkley. Charles has enough time to get into a favorable turnaround jumper, before the hard double can get there. Defenders on the weak side are sagging off slightly, which could be considered a phantom zone, which was the topic of conversation during the Illegal Defense era.

http://i.imgur.com/AcHHb0N.gif
Barkley iso's on the strong side, as his team mates clear to the weak side to open up the floor. The center in the middle gets caught out and if not for Barkley's quick shot attempt, would have been called for Illegal defense. You can see the attention that the defenders are paying to Barkley's teammates flooding the weak side to open the floor for Barkley's ISO. This is kind of messy but it provides the opportunity and spacing via Illegal defense rules, for Barkley to capitalize on the smaller opponent.

http://i.imgur.com/j7XS9e4.gif
David Robinson has the floor open because his teammates are situated in a very modern 3pt shooting style spread. Make it known that, they are NOT 3pt threats nor was it used as such weapon during this time period. The spacing is provided by the Illegal defense rules. Once again we see the weakside defenders sagging off a little, playing a phantom zone, but it really has minimal effect on Robinson, as he is able to comfortably get to his spot and hit a nice 10 foot jumper over the smaller opponent.

http://i.imgur.com/VJVCqBZ.gif
Robinson is allowed easy post position and entry due to section C of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (CANNOT DOUBLE SOMEONE OFF-BALL) and has the lane open to work his post moves, as his team mates are situated in a spread manner, kind of like today where shooters hang at the 3pt line to space the floor, except these guys are not 3pt shooters... Simply providing positioning to achieve appropriate spacing for Robinson. David has enough time to get into a favorable point blank dropstep basket, before the hard double can get there. Defenders on the weak side are sagging off slightly, which could be considered a phantom zone, which was the topic of conversation during the Illegal Defense era.

http://i.imgur.com/TmVr1N5.gif
Robinson isolates on the right wing, while his team mates situate towards to perimeter, to facitilate and provide adequate spacing for Robinson. 2 above the key and the other 2 at the corner 3. A quick mobile athlete like Robinson is able to capitalize and beat the hard double team and finish at the hoop strong. Robinson's spaced out team mates are not all 3pt shooters, the Illegal defense rules allow them to position themselves to create the space required for the Robinson ISO drive to the hoop.

[GIF REACTION]

Shooting Encouraged Spacing
Shooting Encouraged Spacing refers to the offensive floor spreading, occurring after Illegal Defense was removed in 2001. "Encouraged" implies that it is not mandatory, or enforced, to space the floor. Whereas with Rule Enforced Spacing, failure to spread the court with accordance to the Illegal Defense Guidelines, results in a technical and eventual free throws.

2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines
Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place

(Up coming quotes are from some of the most renowned and well respected NBA analysts and writers on the Earth today. Earning the big bucks because they are the best at what they do... Including ESPN's Henry Abbott, and Grantland's Zach Lowe)


“Getting to the hole is getting harder and harder,” says Chicago’s Carlos Boozer


“A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes,” says Houston GM Daryl Morey, in reference to the league’s decision a decade ago to abandon illegal defense rules and essentially allow zone defenses. “First the defense evolved by overloading the strong side, and now the offenses are evolving to beat that.”


“The league has gotten so different today,” (Jim) Boylan says. “You just have to move the ball from one side to the other against the really good defensive teams.”

Isolation and Post up plays are much easier to defend now compared to the Illegal Defense era. Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses, which require full court use, putting a premium on shooting ability enforced spacing (Not rule enforced spacing), passing and movement.


The league overall understands this, though some coaching staffs have been quicker than others in adjusting their systems. The percentage of offensive possessions that end with isolation plays and post-up shots has declined every season for the last five years, per Synergy Sports. In 2008-09, the year after the Celtics used a Thibodeau-designed system to create one of the stingiest defenses ever, 27 of the league’s 30 teams still finished at least 9 percent of their offensive possessions via an isolation play, according to Synergy Sports. The Magic, at 7.4 percent, were the least isolation-prone team in the league that season.3 This season, 15 teams — half the league — are below that 9 percent isolation mark, and a whopping 11 have lower isolation shares than Milwaukee’s league-low number from 2008-09. The drop in post-ups has been similar, and the numbers would seem to indicate an increase in ball movement.

Conversely, this has had an effect on the specifics of personnel scoring, not necessarily team scoring output. Elite scorer numbers are down across the board, and this is in direct effect due to advanced defenses thanks to the removal of Illegal defense. With post ups and isolation plays being able to be defended much better, more ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.


Thorpe explains it best in the video, but the gist is this: In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there.


That's all happening. Stars putting up big numbers are incredibly hard to find this season compared to five years ago, but overall team scoring is down only about two points per game -- the non-star scorers must be picking up a little slack.

And as for assists, in 1985-86, the 10 players who played the longest minutes in the season's first 36 games combined for 1,308 assists. Five years ago, that number was 1,482. This year it's all the way up to 1,768.

David Thorpe

Now, when you beat that first line of defense, you’ve got four dudes very often sitting, waiting for you on ball-side …You might have three, four, even five defenders on that ball-side box. That wasn’t the case when Jordan played … You couldn’t go anywhere near a ball-side box back then. There were great teams like Chuck Daly’s Pistons and Pat Riley’s Lakers that devised “zone,” so to speak, to kind of flood the ball more, but it was nothing, Henry [Abbott of ESPN], like it is today. The teeth of the defense today is much sharper, and there’s many more teeth then there was back when Jordan played,

George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient

“The game is getting out of balance,” says George Karl, now coaching perhaps the league’s preeminent post-up brute. “But until we figure out a way to make the post-up more efficient, we’re not going back. You just can’t win throwing the ball into the post 60 times per game.”


Referees let point guards flit around unfettered, but the paint remains a war zone where brutality can trump skill. Legalized zone frees help defenders to sandwich dangerous post-up threats. “The reason the post-up doesn't work anymore is that teams just front now,” Karl says. Help defenders can drift from their assignments to prevent a lob pass over that front, forcing the defense to whip the ball elsewhere.


http://i.imgur.com/c09G6c1.gif
Dwight post up to face up drive to the hoop from the low post, while Steve Nash, Kobe, MWP, and Antwan Jamison spread the court with their 3 point shooting. Jameer sags off MWP and attempts to swipe the ball from Dwight. This would be an illegal defense in the 90's because it would be considered a double, but it was not a hard double, very much slow and awarely trying to zone and cover space. Dwight finishes strong with the nifty left hook.

http://i.imgur.com/OFCH8de.gif
Blake works in the low post. The strong side and rim is spaced due to having elite 3pt shooters Chris Paul and JJ Reddick at the top of the key, and Matt Barnes in the weakside corner 3. Deandre is baseline, creating a threat with his lob ability, so his defender has to keep contact and respect his offensive threat. This allows Blake to work his way in the post and get a great spin right hand hook shot. Also, noticed how Curry is jumping back and forth, trying to softly double and annoy Blake while being ready for pass out to Paul at the 3 line. This would be considered a clear illegal defense in the Rule Enforced Spacing era.

http://i.imgur.com/gMYnoFZ.gif
Lebron ISO drives to the rim for the AND1 while he has the floor spaced with Mozgov at the top, ready for an 18 footer which he can hit well, Delly and Shump at the 3, spacing the weakside, and Thompson spacing weakside baseline with his Lob ability, similar to Deandre Jordan.

[Segatti]

90's defenses were a joke

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/4183421/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.38.27_PM.png

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183469/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.52.44_PM.png

[sdot_thadon]

https://i.imgflip.com/umv56.jpg
:oldlol:

[MMKM]

This might have already been said but why doesn't the league just give it up and allow zone defense? It's the only league in the world with these stupid illegal defense rules. Just let the defense do whatever it wants, every zone has its weakness. Would make the game more interesting.

There's nothing dumber in sports than creating rules "just because."

[GIF REACTION]

:facepalm
This might have already been said but why doesn't the league just give it up and allow zone defense? It's the only league in the world with these stupid illegal defense rules. Just let the defense do whatever it wants, every zone has its weakness. Would make the game more interesting.

There's nothing dumber in sports than creating rules "just because."
:facepalm

3 in the key is barely called

Defenses do pretty much whatever they want

[MMKM]

:facepalm
:facepalm

3 in the key is barely called

Defenses do pretty much whatever they want

:facepalm :facepalm at YOU.

If defenses do pretty much what they want, why have the rule? I can name multiple zones (almost every zone in the book) that an NBA team could never use effectively with a defensive 3 second rule. Just get rid of the rule.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/-GwNKZ.gif




^^^^^ Notice how Duncan's defender (Pau) is reaching out and touching Duncan - Pau is making sure he remains within "armslength", as stipulated by the defensive 3 second rule.. He isn't allowed to wait under the rim, since that's 8 feet away from Duncan, and out of "armslength".

Here's another example - Maurice Speights must follow Tristan Thompson to the block to stay within "armslength", which prevents him from contesting Lebron at the rim - you can see how wide the paint is on this angle (16 feet wide).


http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif



But in previous eras, defenders were allowed to stand under the rim while their man was on the block because paint-camping was legal.. With defenders camping under the rim, Kawhi would NOT have gotten a wide open dunk in previous eras:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/Rc9D-4.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/mPufIB.gif


Btw, look how much defenders are sagging off their man - yet many ignoramuses think defenders in previous eras had to "follow" their man to the 3-point line - it's pure made-up lies from ignoramuses... Plain and simple... That myth is busted here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390392), where the rules of the game are explained.
.

[90sgoat]

This might have already been said but why doesn't the league just give it up and allow zone defense? It's the only league in the world with these stupid illegal defense rules. Just let the defense do whatever it wants, every zone has its weakness. Would make the game more interesting.

There's nothing dumber in sports than creating rules "just because."

The NBA doesn't want full zone because it will limit drives to the basket.

Also, with a full zone, Spurs win the NBA every year, because Spurs essentially play a European type motion offense just much better and faster. Tony Parker is the prototype of the European zone breaking guard, you could add Calderon, while Rubio on the other hand is much more an American type classic point guard. Rubio's lack of shooting would really suffer his efficiency with a full zone.

Spurs even have a 4 time Euroleague coach as assistant coach in Messina.

The way Spurs play with frequent cuts, screens, motion type offense is designed to break down zones.

As such, I hardly think it would be a loss to institute the full zone. The major reason it wasn't done is because you had a generation of players in the early 00s who couldn't shoot or play motion offense. Now almost every good NBA team understands these principles and looks for players who can play that game.

With a full zone you'd see much less high screen and roll though and far fewer high scoring point guards, which is another reason that I don't think the NBA will allow it. The small high scoring point guards are favorites with the mainstream base because most people are not 6'8'' and can't relate to the big guy.

[diamenz]

basketball may have been better back in the day and jordan is goat, but you need to let people enjoy the game today and stop being a jackass.

[90sgoat]

basketball may have been better back in the day and jordan is goat, but you need to let people enjoy the game today and stop being a jackass.

Mate, it's like telling someone who grew up with Metallica to start appreciating Limp Bizkit.

Or that someone who grew up used to smoke in McDonalds should go outside to smoke.

Or that someone who grew up wanking to Jenna Jameson should be happy with god knows who passes for porn stars these days.

[sd3035]

3ball getting killed in here :roll:

[swagga]

Mate, it's like telling someone who grew up with Metallica to start appreciating Limp Bizkit.

Or that someone who grew up used to smoke in McDonalds should go outside to smoke.

Or that someone who grew up wanking to Jenna Jameson should be happy with god knows who passes for porn stars these days.

metallica = sellout
:lol smoking at mcdonalds
jenna = fake
mj = been other wings that did 99% of what he did (dr j, peak lebron, peak kobe), just an overmarketed player

Son, you are just a victim of the beginning of the marketing era. Look outside the window, it's the same shit as 10/20/30 years ago.

Please retire this troll and take your L like man under 3ball.
God bless and enjoy basketball.