Nash, JK, GP. Who's the better PG? Player?

[sbw19]

And who'd rather have on your team? I'm talking in their prime.

For me. It's..

1) Kidd: TD threat every game, great leader, doesn't shoot well, but proved he's clutch so many times in the playoffs and his rebounding/defense more than makes up for his poor shooting.
2) Payton: outstanding defender, very capable scorer, playmaker.
3) Nash: you know his story, lights out shooter, superlative playmaker, poor defender.

Your take?

[Fudge]

Payton easily

[bleedinpurple]

And who'd rather have on your team? I'm talking in their prime.

For me. It's..

1) Kidd: TD threat every game, great leader, doesn't shoot well, but proved he's clutch so many times in the playoffs and his rebounding/defense more than makes up for his poor shooting.
2) Payton: outstanding defender, very capable scorer, playmaker.
3) Nash: you know his story, lights out shooter, superlative playmaker, poor defender.

Your take?


same. two of the play great D. the other plays average D.

[Glove_20]

Payton is the best PG out of those 3
and the best Player out of those 3


Nash probably is the best "Pure" PG out of those 3




But without a doubt Payton is the best player of the 3

[XxNeXuSxX]

In prime, you have to take Payton as the best player. His defense far excelled Kidds, and blew away Nash. Scoring wise... not really close either.

Nash is the best "REAL" point guard, Payton was the best player, Kidd is inbetween both

[XxNeXuSxX]

Payton is the best PG out of those 3
and the best Player out of those 3


Nash probably is the best "Pure" PG out of those 3




But without a doubt Payton is the best player of the 3
Basically.

[Glove_20]

Yeah

There are basically 3 ways to compare PGs


Better "Pure" PG- Only PG skills. Pass/playmaking etc. Just doing EXACTLY what you would want your PG to do. Shooting high %s is also included. But its mostly just passing/playmaking ONLY.


Better Player- Passing/Playmaking has no extra weight. Scoring matters just as much and everything is the same


Better PG- Between the 2. Look at everything but passing/playmaking is weighted a little more...




Nash is the better "Pure" PG
Payton is the better Player
Payton is the better PG

[Zombles]

Payton easily.

Nash is an average defender and Kidd can't shoot.
They both have better pure PG skills than Gary.

doesn't matter though, Gary was an amazing defender, slowed Jordan down for an entire series, and scored 20 a game. He is obviously the best player.

[TheHonestTruth]

I can't believe this guy hasn't been banned permanantley yet

Take Payton's limp dick out of your mouth fool! Recognize the greatness of Steve Nash.

[Glove_20]

Take Payton's limp dick out of your mouth fool! Recognize the greatness of Steve Nash.
This is coming from the guy who says
"Nash is god" and means it...

You post in every thread saying "Nash is > ____" Or "Nash is ______"

And thats it, just 1 line things...

[XxNeXuSxX]

Take Payton's limp dick out of your mouth fool! Recognize the greatness of Steve Nash.
Ironic.

[Derek]

All 3 are good, but Payton is the best all around player. Payton could score by driving, mid-range jump shot, and kill you with the long ball. His defense was also insane. Keep in mind he won DPOY in '96 as a point guard. That award is usually dominated by the big guys.

Kidd is a great playmaker and an excellent defensive player, especially in rebounding at his height, but his jump shot is average at best.

Nash, like Kidd, is a great playmaker and makes his teammates better. His mid-range and 3 point jumpshot is almost automatic, but like Kidd's offense, Nash's defense is average at best.

To sum it up, Payton is the best overall of the 3 and if he was still 20 something, I'd definitely have him lead my team.

[Kblaze8855]

Totally depends on the team. They all at the tops of their games played on teams built just for their style.

On Paytons Sonics

1Payton
2Kidd
3nash

On Kidds Suns and Nets

1Kidd
2nash
3Payton


On Nashs Suns

1Nash
2Kidd
3Payton


As total players skill by skill Payton is #1. But would have a hard time stepping in for the others.

They are close in impact. Just comes down to what you need. If it has to be ranked as total players:

1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash

As pointguards

Nash/Kidd about tied
Payton

Who id want to start a team not knowing what else id get? The kind of player I feel could fit in in any situation?

Kidd
Nash/Payton tied

I cant think of any situation id not want Kidd. I wouldnt want Nash if I had a horrible defensive backcourt and my "finishers" were more one on one types. I wouldnt want Payton if I had a ball dominating 2 guard. Id feel good about Kidd in any setting. He cant score like the other 2. But the team wont fail to get it done with him on the floor.

Building a team from scratch I take Kidd and feel pretty good about it. Any team I could come up with I think hed be great on. OR at least closest to his best. I think the situation you drop Kidd in has less effect on his play than the other 2.

[DeuceWallaces]

Wouldn't part of being a pure PG be playing some defense, like every once in a while?

In that regard Kidd is still a better pure PG, because he's just as good of a passer and leader as Nash, yet plays defense and rebounds.

[ExpatSunsFan]

I think you can argue Payton if you really try, because it's difficult to quantify defense. Payton wasn't a pure PG, but if your team's defense is good enough, it wouldn't matter.

I don't see Kidd at all, though. Kidd has basically proven he can't run an efficient offense, and he never came close to winning DPOY, either.

[Glove_20]

Totally depends on the team. They all at the tops of their games played on teams built just for their style.

On Paytons Sonics

1Payton
2Kidd
3nash

On Kidds Suns and Nets

1Kidd
2nash
3Payton


On Nashs Suns

1Nash
2Kidd
3Payton


As total players skill by skill Payton is #1. But would have a hard time stepping in for the others.

They are close in impact. Just comes down to what you need. If it has to be ranked as total players:

1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash

As pointguards

Nash/Kidd about tied
Payton





I understand that Kidd/Nash are better "Pure" PGs than Payton, but no way are they better PGs than Payton...Like I said, weight Playmaking/Passing a little heavier, and Payton stil is better than both





Who id want to start a team not knowing what else id get? The kind of player I feel could fit in in any situation?

Kidd
Nash/Payton tied

I cant think of any situation id not want Kidd. I wouldnt want Nash if I had a horrible defensive backcourt and my "finishers" were more one on one types. I wouldnt want Payton if I had a ball dominating 2 guard. Id feel good about Kidd in any setting. He cant score like the other 2. But the team wont fail to get it done with him on the floor.

Building a team from scratch I take Kidd and feel pretty good about it. Any team I could come up with I think hed be great on. OR at least closest to his best. I think the situation you drop Kidd in has less effect on his play than the other 2.

Hmmm. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about...

Payton a ball dominating guard? Have you ever seen the 90s Sonics? How was Payton ball dominating, he passed the ball around. They were tops in offense all the time, and they ran up tempo, and were successfull with it. How was Payton ball dominating? His teammates also put up great numbers. And he had to be more ball demanding in the 00s because he had no great teammates.

And Kidd? I don't know, but I'd rather have a PG who shoots around 48% as my PG vs. a PG who is gonna give me 40% shooting. Honestly, would you really want your PG taking shots, and really just "hurting" your team because he shoots so low?

And what would Kidd do in the Half Court? No wonder the Nets are never one of the best teams on offense. Payton could get the ball working in the half court as well


Wow, there are SO many reasons to take GP over Kidd

[Glove_20]

Wouldn't part of being a pure PG be playing some defense, like every once in a while?

In that regard Kidd is still a better pure PG, because he's just as good of a passer and leader as Nash, yet plays defense and rebounds.
That is true

It can go either way. But part of it also is shooting well...So it really can go either way

[DeuceWallaces]

You can definitely discredit Kidd for shooting, but I'm not sure it's considered a pure PG skill, whatever that means.

[Day La Ghetto]

Glove_20 comes out of the woodworks for this thread.

[telephone]

I understand that Kidd/Nash are better "Pure" PGs than Payton, but no way are they better PGs than Payton...Like I said, weight Playmaking/Passing a little heavier, and Payton stil is better than both





Hmmm. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about...

Payton a ball dominating 2 guard? Have you ever seen the 90s Sonics? How was Payton ball dominating, he passed the ball around. They were tops in offense all the time, and they ran up tempo, and were successfull with it. How was Payton ball dominating? His teammates also put up great numbers. And he had to be more ball demanding in the 00s because he had no great teammates.

And Kidd? I don't know, but I'd rather have a PG who shoots around 48% as my PG vs. a PG who is gonna give me 40% shooting. Honestly, would you really want your PG taking shots, and really just "hurting" your team because he shoots so low?

And what would Kidd do in the Half Court? No wonder the Nets are never one of the best teams on offense. Payton could get the ball working in the half court as well


Wow, there are SO many reasons to take GP over Kidd

I think he is saying, if there already was a ball dominating 2 guard on the team then he wouldnt want payton because payton doesnt have the "pure PG" in him.

He didnt say payton was a ball dominating 2 guard.

[Glove_20]

I think he is saying, if there already was a ball dominating 2 guard on the team then he wouldnt want payton because payton doesnt have the "pure PG" in him.

He didnt say payton was a ball dominating 2 guard.
Your right

But at the same time. Payton wasn't ball dominating. That was my point. He wasn't ball dominating at all in the 90s Sonics. He didn't have that many points or assists. A lot of his teammates had good numbers

[Glove_20]

You can definitely discredit Kidd for shooting, but I'm not sure it's considered a pure PG skill, whatever that means.
Then you can't really say defense matters either for Pure PG skill.

Pure PG- Passing/Playmaking...And for the rest, just do it "solid". Make sure it doesn't "hurt" the team. Make sure you defense doesn't hurt or your shooting doesn't hurt the team. Kidd's shooting hurts

[T-Low]

Sorry Glove_20, But I am a fan of JKidd...even though I am a raps fan....I would say:
1.JKidd
2.Prime Payton
3.Nash

BTW, you can't argue with Glove_20 about Payton....

[Kblaze8855]

Hmmm. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about...

Payton a ball dominating 2 guard? Have you ever seen the 90s Sonics? How was Payton ball dominating, he passed the ball around. They were tops in offense all the time, and they ran up tempo, and were successfull with it. How was Payton ball dominating?

How do you manage to so consistently read what I say and take it to mean the exact opposite of what the words say? yesterday I said 7 is about 41% of Paytons career and you tell me I dont know math because I said 7 is more than half of his career. Now I said I wouldnt want to put Payton next to a ball dominating 2 and you tell me I dont know what im talking about because I called Payton a ball dominating 2.

I know im vague sometimes but got damn....how do you pull that off?

[krazy k]

I'd have to go with Payton. He's bigger, and he has some tenacious d. What else can you want?

[Derek]

Your right

But at the same time. Payton wasn't ball dominating. That was my point. He wasn't ball dominating at all in the 90s Sonics. He didn't have that many points or assists. A lot of his teammates had good numbers


Although Payton didn't average 25-30 PPG or average 11 APG, he did both fairly well and was consistent. How many alleys did he toss Shawn Kemp? A lot of Kemp's, Hawkins's, and Schrempf's points came courtesy of Payton.

[Rameek]

I disagree with all of you in regards to what a point guard is...
if payton is the best all around of the group then he is the best "pure PG"
the other 2 do parts of PG well. to me if you cant shoot, play D, assist, low TO then your not pure anything your part time. IMHO:cheers:
GP > Kidd > Nash for me.

[Glove_20]

How do you manage to so consistently read what I say and take it to mean the exact opposite of what the words say? yesterday I said 7 is about 41% of Paytons career and you tell me I dont know math because I said 7 is more than half of his career. Now I said I wouldnt want to put Payton next to a ball dominating 2 and you tell me I dont know what im talking about because I called Payton a ball dominating 2.

I know im vague sometimes but got damn....how do you pull that off?
Here, I'll just copy my post from before




But at the same time. Payton wasn't ball dominating. That was my point. He wasn't ball dominating at all in the 90s Sonics. He didn't have that many points or assists. A lot of his teammates had good numbers

So Payton would do just fine. At least he wouldn't hurt his team by shooting in the low 40%s. Payton actually shot over 50% at times when he wasn't the main atteniton on the offense. I am sure ANY team would want that. How is the Net's offense? Kidd can't set it up at half court...Nets offense is never in the tops. Payton would do better in the half court set

So there really isn't any strong argument for Kidd on almost any team

[Glove_20]

Sorry Glove_20, But I am a fan of JKidd...even though I am a raps fan....I would say:
1.JKidd
2.Prime Payton
3.Nash

BTW, you can't argue with Glove_20 about Payton....
And you will never win a Jason Kidd argument over Gary Payton...never

Not because I won't agree with you, because you won't have strong enough points against the points for Payton

[T-Low]

And you will never win a Jason Kidd argument over Gary Payton...never

Not because I won't agree with you, because you won't have strong enough points against the points for Payton

Oh I know, but I just like Kidd and thats how its gonna be...gotta problem with that? :rockon:

[Glove_20]

Oh I know, but I just like Kidd and thats how its gonna be...gotta problem with that? :rockon:
As long as I know that Payton is better and you know that you have no arguments for Kidd

Then its ok

[DeuceWallaces]

Then you can't really say defense matters either for Pure PG skill.

Pure PG- Passing/Playmaking...And for the rest, just do it "solid". Make sure it doesn't "hurt" the team. Make sure you defense doesn't hurt or your shooting doesn't hurt the team. Kidd's shooting hurts

But every basketball player should be able to defend, although you can make an argument that every position should be able to shoot except PG.

So a Pure PG could include passing/playmaking, leadership, defense and not shooting.

[Derek]

Payton's efficiency during prime(1994-95 through 2002-03)- 22.89

Kidd's efficiency during prime(1995-96 through 2003-04)- 21.42


Game, set, and match- Payton

[Kblaze8855]

Shooting percentage isnt offense. Kidd "hurt" his team all the way to 2 finals and another conference finals after replacing a 24/8 point who shot better than him on the way to 26 wins. And that much better scoring point went to Kidds 50+ win team and led it to the lottery. Your point guards PPG and shooting percentage is not a measure of his impact on the offense.

Id rather have Kidd replacing the starting point than Payton on the...

Nuggets
Cavs
Lakers
Suns
Hawks
Wizards
Warriors


And a few others but dont feel like putting much time into it.

Or this really. Talking to you about Payton is pointless. Might as well be talking to his little brother or something. Think what you want. Doesnt bother me.

[Glove_20]

Let me add more to Payton's side

Everybody talks about how Kidd is such a good playmaker. But Payton was too. He actually lead the league in total assists once.
And he was one of the least TO prone PGs ever.


Payton's Prime Ast:TO ratio was actually HIGHER than Kidd's Ast:TO ratio in his prime


That goes into the playmaking books on Payton's side

[Glove_20]

Shooting percentage isnt offense. Kidd "hurt" his team all the way to 2 finals and another conference finals after replacing a 24/8 point who shot better than him on the way to 26 wins. And that much better scoring point went to Kidds 50+ win team and led it to the lottery. Your point guards PPG and shooting percentage is not a measure of his impact on the offense.

Id rather have Kidd replacing the starting point than Payton on the...

Nuggets
Cavs
Lakers
Suns
Hawks
Wizards
Warriors


And a few others but dont feel like putting much time into it.

Or this really. Talking to you about Payton is pointless. Might as well be talking to his little brother or something. Think what you want. Doesnt bother me.


Notice how your the only one who is arguing for Kidd, and are running out of arguments...Good time to leave
:rolleyes:


I am not going "I think this" "I think that"...I am backing myself up, isn't that what I am supposed to do?


So it doesn't matter if you PG shoots 40% or 50%? That makes no difference at all? :oldlol:

Good one. Yeah, Sun's offense would still be as good if Nash shot in the low 40s and put 13ppg and had a inconsistent jumper
:rolleyes:


Um, if someone on your team shoots 40%, he brings the whole team's % down. That is NOT a good thing. Its really common sense. I'd want my PG to help out my team's shooting % when he tries to score not hurt it

Which team hasn't been better without Marbury?

[Glove_20]

Now every team need might be a different story. But in most cases, you'd want GP


And at least there is no doubt on who is the better player or PG...So I'm ok

[Kblaze8855]

You are among the most unintentionally funny people ive encountered. I thank you for that. Now I will get back to fleeing your towering intellect.

[Glove_20]

You are among the most unintentionally funny people ive encountered. I thank you for that. Now I will get back to fleeing your towering intellect.
And your one of the most intentional funny people I have encountered. This post and the ones above are examples. It was intentionally supposed to be funny right?
:)

[Rameek]

Shooting percentage isnt offense. Kidd "hurt" his team all the way to 2 finals and another conference finals after replacing a 24/8 point who shot better than him on the way to 26 wins. And that much better scoring point went to Kidds 50+ win team and led it to the lottery. Your point guards PPG and shooting percentage is not a measure of his impact on the offense.
Marbury didnt play with the same team that Kidd did... Marbury didnt play with the same Suns team as Nash did

[Kblaze8855]

Kidd just had Newman and Steven Jackson switched out with a rookie 9ppg Jefferson and getting Kittles back. Those are not changes to justify a 26 win to 50+ and the finals difference. In Phoenix he didnt have Cliff and rodney like Kidd had but he got Penny back for 80 games after he missed the whole season with Kidd. Again....that should not be the difference between lottery and 50+ wins. But its an old issue. Was talked about a lot on ISH when it happened.

[Glove_20]

Marbury didnt play with the same team that Kidd did... Marbury didnt play with the same Suns team as Nash did
KBlaze just doesn't know what he is talking about.


Its just dumb. Wow, Kidd improved the Nets after MARBURY left. Um, which team didn't improve after Marbury left?

Or, shooting %s and don't affect your offense at all. Here is his quote:



"point guards PPG and shooting percentage is not a measure of his impact on the offense."


Um ok, so it won't make a difference at all for the Net's if Kidd could 25ppg and shoot 50%. Yep, thats just as good as 13ppg and 40%

And low %s according to KBlaze don't hurt your offense at all...LOL...Um, thats common sense, of course they hurt your team's %s...






Payton is a better defender. A MUCH better scorer. And very low TO Prone (A need for a PG), so low TO prone that his Assist:TO ratio is better than Kidd's...What more could you want? Oh also, Payton's offenses are at the tops in the league, while Kidd's usually aren't. Part of the reaosn is Kidd isn't a good half-court PG...So there is so much upside for Payton at PG


I don't know why ISH posters think KBlaze is all that great. Everytime I see him he is always looking for "excuses" to flee an argument even though the other poster is being objective and using arguments...I mean I could understand leaving if the other poster was saying
"You are wrong, I wont listen to you"...But KBlaze obviously doesn't know what he is talking about so he leaves

[IceMan2]

KBlaze just doesn't know what he is talking about.


Its just dumb. Wow, Kidd improved the Nets after MARBURY left. Um, which team didn't improve after Marbury left?

Or, shooting %s and don't affect your offense at all. Here is his quote:



Um ok, so it won't make a difference at all for the Net's if Kidd could 25ppg and shoot 50%. Yep, thats just as good as 13ppg and 40%

And low %s according to KBlaze don't hurt your offense at all...LOL...Um, thats common sense, of course they hurt your team's %s...






Payton is a better defender. A MUCH better scorer. And very low TO Prone (A need for a PG), so low TO prone that his Assist:TO ratio is better than Kidd's...What more could you want? Oh also, Payton's offenses are at the tops in the league, while Kidd's usually aren't. Part of the reaosn is Kidd isn't a good half-court PG...So there is so much upside for Payton at PG


I don't know why ISH posters think KBlaze is all that great. Everytime I see him he is always looking for "excuses" to flee an argument even though the other poster is being objective and using arguments...I mean I could understand leaving if the other poster was saying
"You are wrong, I wont listen to you"...But KBlaze obviously doesn't know what he is talking about so he leaves

I kinda agree

[wang4three]

Scoring from the PG role is a bit overrated. It's nice to have, but I wouldn't want to look at it as an option. I'd take Kidd over Payton if I were to start a team. Payton's defense isn't overwhelmingly better in my opinion to warrant taking Kidd over him. Kidd's overwhelmingly better playmaking is enough for me to take him over Payton. As for the AST:TO ratio, I don't really take those to heart unless it's below one. Rarely does Kidd turns it over when it counts and in the waning moments of the game he's as clutch as Payton.

As for Nash, I've become a fan of recent, but three years of great play doesn't even put him in the same category in my mind.

[Kblaze8855]

"You are wrong, I wont listen to you"...But KBlaze obviously doesn't know what he is talking about so he leaves

No...I stop because im talking to you about Gary Payton. which is just pointless. You and Gary, Fab and Dirk, and a few people and Kobe are just not worth taking time to talk to on the issue. There have been very very few people who go into all that "He just dont know what hes talking about" **** with me and the yare all people like you. Crazy over the top bias towards a player. Off the top of my head you are the 4th. First was Madefromdust who believed Tony Parker was better than AI back in like 02. AAP who has a deep personal obsession with Kobe. Then Fab who believes Dirk is better than Bird. And You...who seem to worship Gary Payton.

All of you have so heavily invested yourselves into the defense or hatred of a player that extended discussion with them on that player is simply not worth it. You have proven this to me a number of times. The first time when I saw I needed to block you was after you claimed Zo was only a great defender for 2 seasons(among the dumbest things said in sports fan history) because he was compared to Payton. I eventually forgot why I had you blocked and unblocked you. Only to have you call me a dumb because you cant read yesterday. Resulting in you deleting your own posts and saying youre lucky nobody quoted you to prove that idiocy ever came from you. And then today....I dont know what im talking about because again....you look so hard for Payton hatred you take "I wouldnt put him next to a ball dominating point" to mean "Gary Payton is a ball dominating point" and call me ignorant for being wrong about an issue you made up in your head.

And you really have to wonder why I dont pay attention to your "points"? every time I fool myself into thinking you might have something to say im blindsided by a level of bias few could ever approach. Ive been on here for 6 seasons and talked to smarter people than you who actually knew the game about much harder points to make than a hall of fame point like Jason Kidd being better in some situations than another HOF point in Gary Payton. And thats ignoring the fact that I said Payton is a better overall player.

The reason I dont find you worth my time often is because I dont come here to argue with people who dont care about reality as much as the players they love or hate.

"Gary Payton outplayed MJ in the finals"

"Gary Payton is the only winner on the level of Shaq and Duncan"

"Gary Payton is inarguably a much better defender than Zo in his prime"

"Gary Payton is better than _____ "

"The Heat need Gary Payton to ____"

Gary Payton, Gary Payton, Gary Payton.

If I wanted to deal with a single minded repetitious parrot id go buy a parrot and teach it to sing the Chilis baby back ribs song over and over. At least I could get a laugh out of it.

Because this **** doesnt bother me if its funny. But at some point unintentional humor gets old. You watch a guy fall down a hill its gonna stop being funny eventually. Feel like ive been watching you roll down a hill for months. I just cant keep watching. Only reason to even keep glancing is to see if the grass stains match the green in your Payton throwback you probably never take off.

But even that has lost my interest.

Do what you do. I dont need to be involved. I'll just go back to having you blocked. Maybe in a month or two ill check to see if you have reached the bottom of the hill yet.

[Glove_20]

Funny part about that post was most of it was false. And I don't mean KBlaze's opinoin was false, but the things he said I said were literally false. I never said any of that


Based on that, KBlaze post was worthless and stupid.



No...I stop because im talking to you about Gary Payton. which is just pointless. You and Gary, Fab and Dirk, and a few people and Kobe are just not worth taking time to talk to on the issue. There have been very very few people who go into all that "He just dont know what hes talking about" **** with me and the yare all people like you. Crazy over the top bias towards a player. Off the top of my head you are the 4th. First was Madefromdust who believed Tony Parker was better than AI back in like 02. AAP who has a deep personal obsession with Kobe. Then Fab who believes Dirk is better than Bird. And You...who seem to worship Gary Payton.

The other people you mentionied are stupid. Dirk to Bird? Thats like me saying Payton > Magic? Do I? No...Do I think Payton is the 2nd Greatest PG? No. Big O >>> Payton. How about Isiah vs. Payton. That is comparable. But I'd still take Payton. Payton 4th Best PG of All-Time? Some ESPN Analyst even put him there. But no, I don't think Payton is that great either...

So there you can see, I am not bad as Dirk > Bird. :oldlol:
Not even close.




All of you have so heavily invested yourselves into the defense or hatred of a player that extended discussion with them on that player is simply not worth it. You have proven this to me a number of times. The first time when I saw I needed to block you was after you claimed Zo was only a great defender for 2 seasons(among the dumbest things said in sports fan history) because he was compared to Payton. I eventually forgot why I had you blocked and unblocked you. Only to have you call me a dumb because you cant read yesterday. Resulting in you deleting your own posts and saying youre lucky nobody quoted you to prove that idiocy ever came from you. And then today....I dont know what im talking about because again....you look so hard for Payton hatred you take "I wouldnt put him next to a ball dominating point" to mean "Gary Payton is a ball dominating point" and call me ignorant for being wrong about an issue you made up in your head.

Wow. Thats all I have to say. Idiocy at new lows.

I never said Alonzo was only a good defender for 2 years. I said he was a "GREAT" defender for 2 years. And Good/Solid the other years. And that is tough to argue against. He only made 2 All-Defensive Teams. No more...Why? You can't answer that. At least I have something backing me up, for you, its just your "opinion"



And you really have to wonder why I dont pay attention to your "points"? every time I fool myself into thinking you might have something to say im blindsided by a level of bias few could ever approach. Ive been on here for 6 seasons and talked to smarter people than you who actually knew the game about much harder points to make than a hall of fame point like Jason Kidd being better in some situations than another HOF point in Gary Payton. And thats ignoring the fact that I said Payton is a better overall player.

Well at least you know Payton was better overall than Kidd. Your not that dumb





"Gary Payton outplayed MJ in the finals"

"Gary Payton is the only winner on the level of Shaq and Duncan"

"Gary Payton is inarguably a much better defender than Zo in his prime"

"Gary Payton is better than _____ "

"The Heat need Gary Payton to ____"



Sad part is. I never really said any of those. So wow, continue showing your amazing intellgience. By making up things I never said. I can make up things you never said and make you look dumb too

I never said GP outplayed MJ in the finals
Never said Payton is the only "winner" like Shaq and Duncan, I said he was the only one to never have losing seasons like Shaq/Duncan

Never said Payton is "inarguably" a better defender than Zo. And unfortunately for you, I had more and stronger arguments on my side. Most or ur argument was ur opinoin, most of mine was facts, whos side is most likely right? And you in that argument were "trying" to ignore the facts and say you don't look at those things







So way to go. Making most of your post based on things I never said. I can do that too and make you look bad. Not that hard.

"Loul Deng is the GOAT"
"Gordon is the best SG"
and so on...


I'm tired of your sh!t too...The debate on Alonzo really proved for the 1st time you really don't know what your talking about. I found out that since then.

And I would own you in any debate. Meaning a NON-GP debate as well. Because I know your full of sh!t and don't really know what your talking about. Winning a Payton debate would be easy, but I could also do other people with your "overrated and limited" knowledge.


And its funny how you ignore. I know why though. Your scared of reality, and that is your stupid. Its a good way though, "ignore"...So you wouldn't be exposed to yourself and keep thinking ur great. Keep up ur ego Kblaze, but like I said, I would beat you in a NON-GP debate as well, because really, your overrated knowledge was exposed to me in the Alonzo debate

[Norcaliblunt]

Nash he's more clutch.

[Top_Of_Tha_World]

Nash is the better PG.
GP is the better player in terms of skill.
Kidd is the better all around player(Rebounding, passing, postup game?

[IceMan2]

LOL
KBlaze8855 vs. Glove_20

Take your pick
:oldlol:



No...I stop because im talking to you about Gary Payton. which is just pointless. You and Gary, Fab and Dirk, and a few people and Kobe are just not worth taking time to talk to on the issue. There have been very very few people who go into all that "He just dont know what hes talking about" **** with me and the yare all people like you. Crazy over the top bias towards a player. Off the top of my head you are the 4th. First was Madefromdust who believed Tony Parker was better than AI back in like 02. AAP who has a deep personal obsession with Kobe. Then Fab who believes Dirk is better than Bird. And You...who seem to worship Gary Payton.

All of you have so heavily invested yourselves into the defense or hatred of a player that extended discussion with them on that player is simply not worth it. You have proven this to me a number of times. The first time when I saw I needed to block you was after you claimed Zo was only a great defender for 2 seasons(among the dumbest things said in sports fan history) because he was compared to Payton. I eventually forgot why I had you blocked and unblocked you. Only to have you call me a dumb because you cant read yesterday. Resulting in you deleting your own posts and saying youre lucky nobody quoted you to prove that idiocy ever came from you. And then today....I dont know what im talking about because again....you look so hard for Payton hatred you take "I wouldnt put him next to a ball dominating point" to mean "Gary Payton is a ball dominating point" and call me ignorant for being wrong about an issue you made up in your head.

And you really have to wonder why I dont pay attention to your "points"? every time I fool myself into thinking you might have something to say im blindsided by a level of bias few could ever approach. Ive been on here for 6 seasons and talked to smarter people than you who actually knew the game about much harder points to make than a hall of fame point like Jason Kidd being better in some situations than another HOF point in Gary Payton. And thats ignoring the fact that I said Payton is a better overall player.

The reason I dont find you worth my time often is because I dont come here to argue with people who dont care about reality as much as the players they love or hate.

"Gary Payton outplayed MJ in the finals"

"Gary Payton is the only winner on the level of Shaq and Duncan"

"Gary Payton is inarguably a much better defender than Zo in his prime"

"Gary Payton is better than _____ "

"The Heat need Gary Payton to ____"

Gary Payton, Gary Payton, Gary Payton.

If I wanted to deal with a single minded repetitious parrot id go buy a parrot and teach it to sing the Chilis baby back ribs song over and over. At least I could get a laugh out of it.

Because this **** doesnt bother me if its funny. But at some point unintentional humor gets old. You watch a guy fall down a hill its gonna stop being funny eventually. Feel like ive been watching you roll down a hill for months. I just cant keep watching. Only reason to even keep glancing is to see if the grass stains match the green in your Payton throwback you probably never take off.

But even that has lost my interest.

Do what you do. I dont need to be involved. I'll just go back to having you blocked. Maybe in a month or two ill check to see if you have reached the bottom of the hill yet.




Funny part about that post was most of it was false. And I don't mean KBlaze's opinoin was false, but the things he said I said were literally false. I never said any of that


Based on that, KBlaze post was worthless and stupid.








The other people you mentionied are stupid. Dirk to Bird? Thats like me saying Payton > Magic? Do I? No...Do I think Payton is the 2nd Greatest PG? No. Big O >>> Payton. How about Isiah vs. Payton. That is comparable. But I'd still take Payton. Payton 4th Best PG of All-Time? Some ESPN Analyst even put him there. But no, I don't think Payton is that great either...

So there you can see, I am not bad as Dirk > Bird.
Not even close.



Wow. Thats all I have to say. Idiocy at new lows.

I never said Alonzo was only a good defender for 2 years. I said he was a "GREAT" defender for 2 years. And Good/Solid the other years. And that is tough to argue against. He only made 2 All-Defensive Teams. No more...Why? You can't answer that. At least I have something backing me up, for you, its just your "opinion"




Well at least you know Payton was better overall than Kidd. Your not that dumb





Sad part is. I never really said any of those. So wow, continue showing your amazing intellgience. By making up things I never said. I can make up things you never said and make you look dumb too

I never said GP outplayed MJ in the finals
Never said Payton is the only "winner" like Shaq and Duncan, I said he was the only one to never have losing seasons like Shaq/Duncan

Never said Payton is "inarguably" a better defender than Zo. And unfortunately for you, I had more and stronger arguments on my side. Most or ur argument was ur opinoin, most of mine was facts, whos side is most likely right? And you in that argument were "trying" to ignore the facts and say you don't look at those things







So way to go. Making most of your post based on things I never said. I can do that too and make you look bad. Not that hard.

"Loul Deng is the GOAT"
"Gordon is the best SG"
and so on...


I'm tired of your sh!t too...The debate on Alonzo really proved for the 1st time you really don't know what your talking about. I found out that since then.

And I would own you in any debate. Meaning a NON-GP debate as well. Because I know your full of sh!t and don't really know what your talking about. Winning a Payton debate would be easy, but I could also do other people with your "overrated and limited" knowledge.


And its funny how you ignore. I know why though. Your scared of reality, and that is your stupid. Its a good way though, "ignore"...So you wouldn't be exposed to yourself and keep thinking ur great. Keep up ur ego Kblaze, but like I said, I would beat you in a NON-GP debate as well, because really, your overrated knowledge was exposed to me in the Alonzo debate


Sorry KBlaze, but I am gonna have to stick with Glove, he actually does back himself up. And maybe you haven't noticed, but I have, it seems Payton gets more respect on these boards than he did like 6 months ago. notice how most people said Payton. Its probably because of Glove's on and on talk about Payton, maybe he does have good arguments


But Glove challenged you to a debate. You should do it! Lol

[G-train]

I dont read Payton 20's posts because he is a pain in the arse like his lover Payton.

However Payton is a great, great player. Scoring/assists/defense yeah he is great.

Is he better than Nash? I dont know. Nash is a 2 time MVP for reasons that are hard to quantify in a analytical GP20 style.

Is he better than Kidd/ I dont know. Kidd sometimes toys with the opposition in a way that cant be quantified, and in a way GP would dream about.

When Gp was in his prime, him and Kidd are mentioned in the same sentence both bringing game to the table varying ways.

I take Kidd, because he is bigger, a great defender and is faster. I love how he pushes the tempo in controlled fashion. I love how teammates rave about playing about him. I love how he plays selflessly at all times.

To me he plays the game of basketball, with all its tangibles and intangibles, better than Nash and Payton



.....waits for GP20 biased freak argument

[Kblaze8855]

Iceman 2 are you iceman the spurs fans and army guy from the old board or someone else?

[XxNeXuSxX]

Iceman 2 are you iceman the spurs fans and army guy from the old board or someone else?
Icemanfan still posts here under his own handle.

[Glove_20]

I dont read Payton 20's posts because he is a pain in the arse like his lover Payton.

However Payton is a great, great player. Scoring/assists/defense yeah he is great.

Is he better than Nash? I dont know. Nash is a 2 time MVP for reasons that are hard to quantify in a analytical GP20 style.

Is he better than Kidd/ I dont know. Kidd sometimes toys with the opposition in a way that cant be quantified, and in a way GP would dream about.

When Gp was in his prime, him and Kidd are mentioned in the same sentence both bringing game to the table varying ways.

I take Kidd, because he is bigger, a great defender and is faster. I love how he pushes the tempo in controlled fashion. I love how teammates rave about playing about him. I love how he plays selflessly at all times.

To me he plays the game of basketball, with all its tangibles and intangibles, better than Nash and Payton



.....waits for GP20 biased freak argument


Look, I don't know how you can say an argument is biased when I am only going to use facts.

And I don't use only stats, I give respect to Nash's MVPs. I would take Nash over players like AI at their best


When its Kidd vs. Payton, sure Kidd can push the tempo up in a full-court game but so can Payton. The 90s Sonics were uptempo and routinely finished at the top in offenses.

But in Half Court? Payton is clearly better. Why don’t you think Kidd’s offenses finish top in the league every year? Payton’s offenses have done better than Kidd’s…

And remember, GP has a higher Ast/TO ratio than Kidd...Payton was very low TO prone

And Payton has a solid all-around game too

24.2ppg
8.9apg
6.5rpg

Thats solid.

And Payton has done more winning than Kidd.

Kidd:

2 50+ Win Teams
0 60+ Win Teams


Payton:

5 50+ Win Teams
3 60+ Win Teams




And the list goes on

[G-train]

Kidd isnt a scorer - he is an all-round game controlling freak. Payton has shooting over him and steals. Possibly Man on Man D.

Kidd has rebounding, assists, playmaking, court vision, athletiscism (speed, strength, leaping), finishing (particularly on the break) over Gp.

And he has not had the luxury of 90's sonics teams for wins, so those stats are not relevant. However whatever team he went on improved greatly from his presence.

So I say Kidd has better pure PG skills, and is a better all around player

Sonics still win 60 games with a prime kidd

[sbw19]

I'm sorry, kblaze. My bad.

I can't get over the guilt.. As old and tired as it might have sounded, is there anyway I can go back in time and edit the thread to "Nash, JK. Who's the better PG? Player?"


Alright. I feel silly bringing up these points but I will for the sake of reversing the curse I've brought upon you guys :D

1- Blaze said. "Your point guards PPG and shooting percentage is not a measure of his impact on the offense."

Replace "points guards" with "shooting guards" and you might get the picture, Glove. But he's right in the case of GP-vs-JK even if you take the literal meaning of that sentence (see below for clarification).

2- You put too much emphasis on shooting %. Consider these "facts":

The highest # of shot attempts JK had in a single season was: 1244 (15.5 FGA/Game in 80 games, FG%=42, 3PT%=34%), he ended up averaging 18.7PPG.
The closest # to that total attempts GP had in a single season:1278 (15.6FGA/Game in 82 games, FG%=45%, 3PT%=34%), he ended up averaging 19.2PPG.
Difference is +0.5pts.
GP averaged 5rbs/8asts/2.8TOs.
JK averaged 7rbs/10asts/3.5TOs.

Who had the bigger impact, numbers-wise, GP?

Another point:

GP averages 16.7ppg & 16.9FGA/Game in 37.5MPG for his career.
JK averages 14.6ppg & 13.0FGA/Game in 36.0MPG for his career.
Meaning GP takes 4 more attempts/game in order to only score 2.1 more points/game.


See how meaningless this whole argument is?

You add the fact that Kidd is the better rebounder and playmaker (he averages 6/9, GP averages 4/7) and it's all the more clear KBlaze's argument for taking Kidd over Payton in certain situation is a very valid one. And the difference in TO (0.9/game: JK:3.2TO/game, GP:2.3TO/game doesn't counterbalance the difference in rebounds/assists numbers, because 2more rebounds+3more assists+4lessFGA > 2more points+1less TO).

[Glove_20]

Kidd isnt a scorer - he is an all-round game controlling freak. Payton has shooting over him and steals. Possibly Man on Man D.

Kidd has rebounding, assists, playmaking, court vision, athletiscism (speed, strength, leaping), finishing (particularly on the break) over Gp.

And he has not had the luxury of 90's sonics teams for wins, so those stats are not relevant. However whatever team he went on improved greatly from his presence.

So I say Kidd has better pure PG skills, and is a better all around player

Sonics still win 60 games with a prime kidd

Like I said. Payton could control a game all-around too

And "possibly" Payton was better Man to Man D?

You did not just say that...Its official, you have not seen a prime Payton. Admit it, your like 16 or something right? I mean, "possibly" better on MantoMan D, thats hilarious


Like I said:

Kidd was a better passer/playmaker and rebounder
Payton was a better scorer and defender

Now obviously scoring and defnese are more important than passing/rebonding...Scoring and defense are the 2 most important categories in basketball, but since these are PGs, Kidd makes it closer. And yeah, Kidd was more athletic, but that just helps get some assists/points/rebounds which we are already looking at. Same with court vision


But really, how much of a better passer/playmaker is Kidd? Not very much. He got a lot of assists, but their Ast:TO ratio is about the same with short edge to Payton. What does that mean? Kidd might get above average PG assists, but Payton gets below average PG TOs...

And Payton can run the offense on half court and full court. Can Kidd? Isn't that REALLY important for a PG to do? Kidd has had trouble doing that all his career...While Payton has done that well, in the 90s Sonics were a up tempo team, and then later Payton showed he can do half court offense well too


So the Passing edge isn't really that great. Rebounding Kidd takes it, but really, he has had some weak frount courts, but I'll still give it to him


Defense Payton has a very solid edge. He was a WAY WAY better Man to Man defender. You can ask anyone. I mean, ANYONE. Payton has a DPOY, Kidd has never been close. And Payton also has a record straight 9 straight All-Defensive 1st Team selections

And the Scoring edge is huge for Payton as well. He was a much better scorer than Kidd...




So really, I don't see any argument for Kidd. Wow, he was a better passer and rebounder. But not by too much, and Payton has too many edges on him elsewhere

[XxNeXuSxX]

playmaking, court vision, athletiscism (speed, strength, leaping), over Gp.


Disagree on all three of these accounts.

First, 'Playmaking', as I intepret it, is the ability to singlehandedly create opportunities for yourself and or teammates. A key skill to be a great playmaker is the ability to penetrate the lane, something I thought Payton was better than most at his position at the time. Second, court vision, to go along with the ability to be a great playmaker, Payton has the edge in THANKS to his great ability to score. People have always backed off Kidd since he came into the league because of his lack of an outside shot. Going along these lines, guards could not back off Payton as they knew he was more dangerous from the floor. Payton took advantage of his great scoring ability when it was available and made the passes necessary when it was available. Third, athleticism? You got to be kidding here... Payton was an absolute freak coming into the league... one of the quickest of the 90s easily. Obviously he was known for his amazing hand speed combined with his incredible coordination, but his firststep was something that was vastly underrated. Either way, he's ahead of Kidd.

[Glove_20]

I'm sorry, kblaze. My bad.

I can't get over the guilt.. As old and tired as it might have sounded, is there anyway I can go back in time and edit the thread to "Nash, JK. Who's the better PG? Player?"


Alright. I feel silly bringing up these points but I will for the sake of reversing the curse I've brought upon you guys :D

1- Blaze said. "Your point guards PPG and shooting percentage is not a measure of his impact on the offense."

Replace "points guards" with "shooting guards" and you might get the picture, Glove. But he's right in the case of GP-vs-JK even if you take the literal meaning of that sentence (see below for clarification).



2- You put too much emphasis on shooting %. Consider these "facts":

[/B]The highest # of shot attempts JK had in a single season was: 1244 (15.5 FGA/Game in 80 games, FG%=42, 3PT%=34%), he ended up averaging 18.7PPG.
The closest # to that total attempts GP had in a single season:1278 (15.6FGA/Game in 82 games, FG%=45%, 3PT%=34%), he ended up averaging 19.2PPG.
Difference is +0.5pts.
GP averaged 5rbs/8asts/2.8TOs.
JK averaged 7rbs/10asts/3.5TOs.

Who had the bigger impact, numbers-wise, GP?



1st of all my point was it does impact the offense, its NOT what Kblaze said, "No impact at all"

2nd of all, you don't show the fact that 15.6 FGA attempts at 42% hurt yoru team's overall shooting more. It brings ur whole team's numbers down

3rd ofall, its only 1 year, Payton has gone over 50% shooting and Kidd below 40%, check the numbers there...lol




Another point:

GP averages 16.7ppg & 13.0FGA/Game in 37.5MPG for his career.
JK averages 14.6ppg & 16.9FGA/Game in 36.0MPG for his career.
Meaning GP takes 4 more attempts/game in order to only score 2.1 more points/game.




You add the fact that Kidd is the better rebounder and playmaker (he averages 6/9, GP averages 4/7) and it's all the more clear KBlaze's argument for taking Kidd over Payton in certain situation is a very valid one. And the difference in TO (0.9/game: JK:3.2TO/game, GP:2.3TO/game doesn't counterbalance the difference in rebounds/assists numbers, because 2more rebounds+3more assists+4lessFGA > 2more points+1less TO).[/QUOTE]

If u want to compare their numbers, compare their PRIME numbers because Payton has had more out of prime years than Kidd...So basically that statistical argument is weak

And you said
Payton gets 16.7ppg on 13 FG Attempts, and Kidd 14.6ppg on 17 FG Attempts. And then you wrote Payton attempts 4 more. :oldlol:



But basically, the whole statistical argument is weak because this is the career averages, try their "prime" and see what happens

[G-train]

Because you think PG is faster (I said speed, not quickness) you obviously are uneducated on eithers games.

The fact you think gP has better court vision is LAUGHABLE.

Kidd is the athletic freak of the two - 6'4 and strong, lightning end to end.
Payton has quicker hands - I never said Kidd was quicker.

And if you think Payton was better at creating for his teammates this is also LAUGHABLE

[XxNeXuSxX]

Because you think PG is faster (I said speed, not quickness) you obviously are uneducated on eithers games.

The fact you think gP has better court vision is LAUGHABLE.

Kidd is the athletic freak of the two - 6'4 and strong, lightning end to end.
Payton has quicker hands - I never said Kidd was quicker.

And if you think Payton was better at creating for his teammates this is also LAUGHABLE
I love how people drop the 'uneducated' line when they probably weren't even old enough to understand what was going on.

One, where did I say Payton was 'better' at creating for his teammates? I didn't. I said he was a better PLAYMAKER. Which, like I said earlier, is open to interpretation. I consider it being able to score part of playmaking, clearly you are "uneducated" on how to read my posts, huh?

Second, How does Payton not have better court vision? Besides being 'laughable', please back yourself up, or else you have no point. More assists =/ better court vision. Again, Payton used his court vision to take it to create his own offense.

Third, you are overrating Kidd's athleticism. Sure, he was stronger and faster... both their verticals was about even. But COORDINATION AND QUICKNESS is part of athleticism.

PS: being 6'4 has no relevance to how Athletic Kidd was.

[G-train]

GP20 are you GP's mother?

I watched GP's and Kidd's entire career. Kidd is a remarkable one on one defender, completely underrated. He is only just behind GP in that category.

GP won the DPOY mainly for his stealing - and also for his one on one. Kidd is also a great one on one defender

[XxNeXuSxX]

GP20 are you GP's mother?

I watched GP's and Kidd's entire career. Kidd is a remarkable one on one defender, completely underrated. He is only just behind GP in that category.

GP won the DPOY mainly for his stealing - and also for his one on one. Kidd is also a great one on one defender
Kidd was good, probably top 5 guard defender in his prime, but Payton was on a whole different level.

[G-train]

PS: being 6'4 has no relevance to how Athletic Kidd was.

It does when your faster than 99% who are 6'1 or 2

[XxNeXuSxX]

It does when your faster than 99% who are 6'1 or 2
Lebron is faster than 98% of them too, and he's 6'8. It should have no relevance.

[Glove_20]

GP20 are you GP's mother?

I watched GP's and Kidd's entire career. Kidd is a remarkable one on one defender, completely underrated. He is only just behind GP in that category.

GP won the DPOY mainly for his stealing - and also for his one on one. Kidd is also a great one on one defender
You got to be kidding me.

Have you seen Kidd play? He has routinely gotten beaten 1on1 by smaller and quicker PGs...


And there are a lot of ther points you have had no answer for...

[sbw19]

1st of all my point was it does impact the offense, its NOT what Kblaze said, "No impact at all"

2nd of all, you don't show the fact that 15.6 FGA attempts at 42% hurt yoru team's overall shooting more. It brings ur whole team's numbers down

3rd ofall, its only 1 year, Payton has gone over 50% shooting and Kidd below 40%, check the numbers there...lol






You add the fact that Kidd is the better rebounder and playmaker (he averages 6/9, GP averages 4/7) and it's all the more clear KBlaze's argument for taking Kidd over Payton in certain situation is a very valid one. And the difference in TO (0.9/game: JK:3.2TO/game, GP:2.3TO/game doesn't counterbalance the difference in rebounds/assists numbers, because 2more rebounds+3more assists+4lessFGA > 2more points+1less TO).
If u want to compare their numbers, compare their PRIME numbers because Payton has had more out of prime years than Kidd...So basically that statistical argument is weak

And you said
Payton gets 16.7ppg on 13 FG Attempts, and Kidd 14.6ppg on 17 FG Attempts. And then you wrote Payton attempts 4 more. :oldlol:



But basically, the whole statistical argument is weak because this is the career averages, try their "prime" and see what happens[/B][/COLOR] [/quote]

1- "not a measure of the impact of" does not equal "no impact at all". He was basically implying other paraments are the true measures of the impact of PG. Comprehension 101, glove.

2- Funny how in that "GP not on a losing team" thread, you included both versions of GP: prime and washed-out to justify your points (since including non-prime seasons wasn't not fair to begin with), and here you ask me not to do the same? How just of you. Not that I believe it makes any difference since..

3- If you want to do prime numbers, go ahead. Do them and see for yourself, I guarantee you that you'll see similar results. I won't do them myself though. I've made my point very clear. You prove your points on your own, if you have any. Of course, you can't discredit the fact I've just showed you that FG% can be and are insignificant, and you can't dismiss that, so you completely ignore it and ask me to do prime numbers. Why should I? I have no point to prove. Yo have. So do them yourself, and see if they make the huge difference that you think they do.

[Glove_20]

It does when your faster than 99% who are 6'1 or 2
Payton was also 6"4

[XxNeXuSxX]

Payton was also 6"4
That too :oldlol:

[Glove_20]

does not equal "no impact at all". He was basically implying other paraments are the true measures of the impact of PG. Comprehension 101, glove.

2- Funny how in that "GP not on a losing team" thread, you included both versions of GP: prime and washed-out to justify your points (since including non-prime seasons wasn't not fair to begin with), and here you ask me not to do the same? How just of you. Not that I believe it makes any difference since..

3- If you want to do prime numbers, go ahead. Do them and see for yourself, I guarantee you that you'll see similar results. I won't do them myself though. I've made my point very clear. You prove your points on your own, if you have any. Of course, you can't discredit the fact I've just showed you that FG% can be and are insignificant, and you can't dismiss that, so you completely ignore it and ask me to do prime numbers. Why should I? I have no point to prove. Yo have. So do them yourself, and see if they make the huge difference that you think they do.

Once again, you compared a season of one of Kidd's best FG% and one of Payton's worst FG% in his prime. Hmmm....If u wanna show that, show us 50+ % Payton, and less than 40% Kidd and lets see the changes there

Oh and also, like I said, Kidd brings the whole TEAM's %s down. I would want a PG to bring my team up in FG% not down




2. Ok, so your some statistical person who only looks at stats obviously...You have not talked about their skills at all and have stuck with stats. Obviously Payton's prime numbers are gonna be different from his "career" ones, he has had 7 years out of prime. Take those 7 off and you have a new player

Compare Kidd in his prime to him

[G-train]

6'4? I do know this. he is still slower. Lebron is a better athlete than both.

Lebron speed > Kidd > PAyton

[Glove_20]

That G-Train's arguments are pretty funny. I love how he ignores so many things like


1. Kidd's inability to get the job done in the Half-Court, while Payton can do it both Half/Full court...Isn't that important in playmaking and for a PG?

2. Payton has a higher Ast:TO ratio. That says something, think about it

3. Payton was a WAY better scorer

4. Kidd was a better rebounder, but Payton could rebound above average for a PG too, and Kidd's rebounding numbers are inflated

5. I can't belive he thinks Kidd is almost as good as Payton 1on1. Wow. A good example would be just last year when Anthony Johnson destroyed Kidd 1on1. Kidd is too big to guard smaller and quicker PGs

6. If you want a clincher? DURABILITY. Payton is one of the most durable of all-time



Come on G-Train. How great is Kidd's edge in passing/playmaking? Why can't he get it done in Half-Court? Isn't that importnat for a PG? And doesn't Payton's low TO rate play anywhere? And why haven't Kidd's offenses been as successful as Payton's if he is so good at running offenses?

There is so much ground you have to cover

[Glove_20]

Here is a quick quote on Payton from Isiah Thomas


"He's the Deion Sanders of the NBA, I'm trying to think of how to say this without sounding crazy. Defensively, he's so fast, he's there. He's not moving to the point; there appears to be no great effort on his part. He's just there. The person he's guarding, you can just eliminate him from the offense."

-Isiah Thomas



Yes, Payton was that fast, and that good on defense

[G-train]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards

there is probabaly other lists but I dont have time. Kidd's qualities that make him better than gp are hard to quantify. Yes PAyton was better at certain things, but Kidd was the better player

[sbw19]

2nd of all, you don't show the fact that 15.6 FGA attempts at 42% hurt yoru team's overall shooting more. It brings ur whole team's numbers down

Not necessarily. It's usually how the PG runs the floor and how accurate the shooters are which matter the most.

The 00/01 Nets led by Marbury whose FG% was 44 shot 42.5% from the floor.
The 01/02 Nets led by Kidd whose FG% was 39 shot 45% from the floor.

See my point?



3rd ofall, its only 1 year, Payton has gone over 50% shooting and Kidd below 40%, check the numbers there...lol

The # of shots was comparable, and both in their prime. Don't like it? your problem. I chose it because it was the season in which Kidd took the highest FGA in his career, just so to be fair because he doesn't take that many shots.


And you said
Payton gets 16.7ppg on 13 FG Attempts, and Kidd 14.6ppg on 17 FG Attempts. And then you wrote Payton attempts 4 more. :oldlol:


THAT's weak, glove. It was a typo. I later edited and corrected it. You're so out of arguments and you're resorting to correct obvious typos. So lame. :P




But basically, the whole statistical argument is weak because this is the career averages, try their "prime" and see what happens

No, it isn't. On the contrary, it proves a point you can't discredit, and you know it. Do prime numbers if you like, and if it makes that "VERY HUGE IMPACT" you're talking about, return to me and boast about it like you want.

[Glove_20]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards
:roll:

G-Train's next argument. Other analysts



Well Payton is one of the most underrated players of all-time. So your gonna see him low on most lists. But just to prove that "Glove, its just you that thinks that"


One of those ESPN analysts has Payton as the 4th Best PG of All-Time
And Bill Simmons once said:

"Prime Payton was better than a prime Stockton or Kidd"



So Payton is underrated, and he will be like that on lists too. But some realize that he was really that good, and there you go

[Glove_20]

Not necessarily. It's usually how the PG runs the floor and how accurate the shooters are which matter the most.

The 00/01 Nets led by Marbury whose FG% was 44 shot 42.5% from the floor.
The 01/02 Nets led by Kidd whose FG% was 39 shot 45% from the floor.

See my point?




The # of shots was comparable, and both in their prime. Don't like it? your problem. I chose it because it was the season in which Kidd took the highest FGA in his career, just so to be fair because he doesn't take that many shots.



THAT's weak, glove. It was a typo. I later edited and corrected it. You're so out of arguments and you're resorting to correct obvious typos. So lame. :P





No, it isn't. On the contrary, it proves a point you can't discredit, and you know it. Do prime numbers if you like, and if it makes that "VERY HUGE IMPACT" you're talking about, return to me and boast about it like you want.


1. Lets use some common sense. If a PG shoots 50% routinely, vs. 40%...Whats the diff? Well, the PG that shoots 40% is going to "hurt" his team's FG% everytime he tries to score. The one that shoots high % is going to "help" his team's FG%

Its called common sense, are u reallly having trouble understand this?


2. I am runing out of arguments? Please, you have stuck with stats the whole time...How about you use skills and stuff?

But its ok, you want stats? We'll do stats...

And once again, Prime stats are more important...Obviously since Payton has had non-prime years WAY more than Kidd, and that makes a diff


I'll post the Prime stats in like 15min

[sbw19]

Once again, you compared a season of one of Kidd's best FG% and one of Payton's worst FG% in his prime. Hmmm....If u wanna show that, show us 50+ % Payton, and less than 40% Kidd and lets see the changes there

No. I did that because of the reason stated earlier. Don't like it? your problem.


Oh and also, like I said, Kidd brings the whole TEAM's %s down. I would want a PG to bring my team up in FG% not down

See my other post.



2. Ok, so your some statistical person who only looks at stats obviously...You have not talked about their skills at all and have stuck with stats. Obviously Payton's prime numbers are gonna be different from his "career" ones, he has had 7 years out of prime. Take those 7 off and you have a new player

Your entire FG% argument was based on statistics, so I talked statistics. Got a problem with that?


Compare Kidd in his prime to him

You do that for us. Thank you very much.

[sbw19]

1. Lets use some common sense. If a PG shoots 50% routinely, vs. 40%...Whats the diff? Well, the PG that shoots 40% is going to "hurt" his team's FG% everytime he tries to score. The one that shoots high % is going to "help" his team's FG%

Its called common sense, are u reallly having trouble understand this?
Here's some common sense for you. A point guard's main job is to distribute the ball. Consquently, the bulk of shots are taken by other players on the floor. Hence, if his ability to find the open man is superlative compared to the defense he faces on a regular basis, and if his supporting cast are very good shooters, their shooting % goes up, irrespective of how poorly he shoots the ball. So, his supporting cast shooting ability and his playmaking ability are the prime reasons for superior FG% and not his his FG% per se. Especially if he's not attempting so many shots, pretty much like any classic point guard like Kidd.



2. I am runing out of arguments? Please, you have stuck with stats the whole time...How about you use skills and stuff?
Blaze took care of the non-stats part, and you resorted to FG%. I took it from there. Too bad for you, huh?


But its ok, you want stats? We'll do stats...

And once again, Prime stats are more important...Obviously since Payton has had non-prime years WAY more than Kidd, and that makes a diff


I'll post the Prime stats in like 15min


Good. We're waiting.

[G-train]

Kidd is a better passer, and a better leader, has better court vision, is better at getting is team mates involved = better PG. Undisputed.

IMO he plays the GAME of BASKETBALL as a whole, in terms of total effect on the game, better than GP. To me this makes him a better player.

[Glove_20]

Here's some common sense for you. A point guard's main job is to distribute the ball. Consquently, the bulk of shots are taken by other players on the floor. Hence, if his ability to find the open man is superlative compared to the defense he faces on a regular basis, and if his supporting cast are very good shooters, their shooting % goes up, irrespective of how poorly he shoots the ball. So, his supporting cast shooting ability and his playmaking ability are the prime reasons for superior FG% and not his his FG% per se. Especially if he's not attempting so many shots, pretty much like any classic point guard like Kidd.



Blaze took care of the non-stats part, and you resorted to FG%. I took it from there. Too bad for you, huh?


Good. We're waiting.

1. Yep, Common sense is lacking

Ok, its true that a good PG makes the whole team's FG% go up because of his ability to make things easier with his passing/playmaking. But an EVEN BETTER PG shoots the ball well as well, to make his team's FG% go EVEN higher.

Do you get that?

2. KBlaze didn't have any argument. He was arguing about something else. And said Payton is better overall anyways than Kidd.

[Glove_20]

Kidd is a better passer, and a better leader, has better court vision, is better at getting is team mates involved = better PG. Undisputed.

IMO he plays the GAME of BASKETBALL as a whole, in terms of total effect on the game, better than GP. To me this makes him a better player.
:roll:

So after all that you come to this?

Just repeated what you said at the beggining and really didn't argue back against the arguments thrown by me and Nexus. Wow



Kidd is a better passer, and a better leader, has better court vision, is better at getting is team mates involved = better PG. Undisputed.

So basically your saying a PG who is a better passer/leader/"court vision" (What is court vision good for besides passing/playmaking?)/better at getting teammates involved = Better PG no matter what?

Then its pointless arguing with you because your philosophy is SO weak. So this mean John Stockton was a better PG than The Big O right?


There are other factors involved as well. And Payton has ALL of them covered. And he is good at all the things you mentioned above

[sbw19]

1. Yep, Common sense is lacking

Ok, its true that a good PG makes the whole team's FG% go up because of his ability to make things easier with his passing/playmaking. But an EVEN BETTER PG shoots the ball well as well, to make his team's FG% go EVEN higher.

Do you get that?
Actually, it's lacking in your argument, Glove. A PG who is a better playmaker but a worse shooter than another PG will have his teammates and hence his team FG% go much higher than the other PG in any case, and is especailly true if he's surrounded by very capable shooters. Hence, blaze's preference of Nash/Kidd over Payton for teams stacked with shooters like the Suns. Keep DENYING that fact and saying that it lacks common sense, it might help in keeping your arguments alive. Forever. ;)



2. KBlaze didn't have any argument. He was arguing about something else. And said Payton is better overall anyways than Kidd.
My argument isn't about who's the better player. My argument is the same as kblaze's. Kidd, depending on the talent you surround him with, can be a better fit for certain teams than Payton. If you were having no clue as to why I'm typing all of this in the first place, then I guess it's all in vain. *sigh*

[Glove_20]

Seriuosly

what do these Kidd lovers got left?


All they talk about is passing and rebonding...

Thats Kidd's only advantages...

And Payton could do both of those well too. And Passing/Playmaking its closer than people think

Payton has a big edge in scoring, and has the edge in defense...Which are 2 categories more important than passing/rebounding

And then, all the team success, Payton's teams have been much more successfull, he even has a ring...

Kidd:

11 Playoff Appearances
4 50-59 Win Teams
0 60+ Win Teams
2 NBA Finals
0 Championships

Payton;

15 Playoff Appearances
5 50-59 Win Teams
3 60+ Win Teams
3 NBA Finals
1 Championship


And then the amazing durability, 7 games missed in 16 years...Including 10 years straight without a game missed...Kidd has missed 33 in the last 3 years, and had a year of 55 games played...


And Payton even has more advantages...


And Kidd, who hurts his team when he shoots, shooting 40%...While Payton helps his team by shooting around 47-48%...

Would you want a PG that "hurts" your team when he tries to score?

And then lets not forget Kidd's defeffiencies on the half court set...While Payton flourishes Half Court/Full Court

[G-train]

:roll:

Then its pointless arguing with you because your philosophy is SO weak. So this mean John Stockton was a better PG than The Big O right?



:roll: :roll: :roll:

undoubtedly! Stockton is a point guard. The Big O was a combo guard. He played both PG and SG. But stockton undoubtedly played the PG positon better than him.

It is without question the 2 best PG's ever are Magic and Stockton

[Glove_20]

Actually, it's lacking in your argument, Glove. A PG who is a better playmaker but a worse shooter than another PG will have his teammates and hence his team FG% go much higher than the other PG in any case, and is especailly true if he's surrounded by very capable shooters. Hence, blaze's preference of Nash/Kidd over Payton for teams stacked with shooters like the Suns. Keep DENYING that fact and saying that it lacks common sense, it might help in keeping your arguments alive. Forever. ;)



My argument isn't about who's the better player. My argument is the same as kblaze's. Kidd, depending on the talent you surround him with, can be a better fit for certain teams than Payton. If you were having no clue as to why I'm typing all of this in the first place, then I guess it's all in vain. *sigh*

:roll:

So you too admit Payton > Kidd overall. Thats good. Well I know and have said before Kidd would fit better in some teams as well

So we actually agree and we have been arguing
:oldlol:


And on your 1st argument. once again, your right, a PG's whose FG% is low but a good passer/playmaker will make his team's FG% go higher anyways

BUT a PGs whose FG% and passing/playmaking is good will be even better for his team. Agree right?

[sbw19]

he even has a ring...

You're a master debater, Glove. :roll:

[Glove_20]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

undoubtedly! Stockton is a point guard. The Big O was a combo guard. He played both PG and SG. But stockton undoubtedly played the PG positon better than him.

It is without question the 2 best PG's ever are Magic and Stockton

:oldlol:

So who is the better overall player? Kidd or Payton?



I admit Kidd is the better "pure" PG, and I think thats what you were arguing the whole time...And I have been arguing Payton is the better player

lol, mine and your argument might have the same conclusion as mine did with sbw

[Glove_20]

You're a master debater, Glove. :roll:
Thats Nexus:oldlol:

[Vendetta]

Does this thread really warrant 6+ pages of debate? No.

Overall player... GP > Kidd > Nash
Strictly PG related activities... Nash > Kidd / GP
Who I want on my team... GP > Kidd / Nash

[Glove_20]

Well its interesting how these 2 arguments ended


It turned out we were all arguing for different points
I have been arguing who is the better overall player the whole time, G-Train on who is the better "Pure" PG the whole time, and sbw on "If Kidd can fit other teams better"


And really, after all those arguments, we actually agreed the WHOLE TIME
:roll:

[G-train]

GP 20 you are obsessed with Gary Payton. You are blind. Its like you universe revolves around him.

Bring up stats, bring up team success, bring up whatever. I play and I know the game of basketball. And Jason Kidd plays it better than GP. Yes they both played it at very high levels, but qualities in leadership and making his team mates better and passing and hustle and other intangibles are better than the ability to average 20 points and 8 assists and being a good defender.

[Glove_20]

GP 20 you are obsessed with Gary Payton. You are blind. Its like you universe revolves around him.

Bring up stats, bring up team success, bring up whatever. I play and I know the game of basketball. And Jason Kidd plays it better than GP. Yes they both played it at very high levels, but qualities in leadership and making his team mates better and passing and hustle and other intangibles are better than the ability to average 20 points and 8 assists and being a good defender.
My bad, I didn't know what you were trying to argue this whole time. I agree with you. Kidd is the better "Pure" PG.

Read my last couple of posts
:)

[XxNeXuSxX]

You're a master debater, Glove.


Thats Nexus :oldlol:

:oldlol:

[eliteballer]

Kidd's shooting isn't that much of a concern because his shooting/scoring is money in big games/clutch situations.

[Derek]

GP 20 you are obsessed with Gary Payton. You are blind. Its like you universe revolves around him.

Bring up stats, bring up team success, bring up whatever. I play and I know the game of basketball. And Jason Kidd plays it better than GP. Yes they both played it at very high levels, but qualities in leadership and making his team mates better and passing and hustle and other intangibles are better than the ability to average 20 points and 8 assists and being a good defender.


I too, am tired of all these Gary Payton/Jason Kidd/Steve Nash topics. Let me sum this up:


-Kidd led the Nets to 2 NBA Finals in a pathetic conference
-Payton led the Sonics to 60+ wins 3 times, one of those times without Shawn Kemp
-Payton led the Sonics to a Finals appearance in a very competitive conference
-Payton's efficiency is well over a point higher than Kidd's
-Payton won DPOY, an award dominated by big men


I'm not here to bash Kidd. He does have some advantages over Payton:


-Better rebounder
-Better in the fast break game
-Better passer


Naturally, fans prefer the more flashy point guard, so they are going to go with Kidd. But, Payton is the more efficient player and the better leader.

[G-train]

:cheers:

[sbw19]

:roll:

So you too admit Payton > Kidd overall. Thats good. Well I know and have said before Kidd would fit better in some teams as well

So we actually agree and we have been arguing
:oldlol:



As a player? of course he is, but not by much really. More like 1a and 1b, pick your poison. As a teammate, however, it really depends on the team like blaze mentioned earlier. He's certainly not better in stacked and run and gun teams, given his advantages over Payton.




And on your 1st argument. once again, your right, a PG's whose FG% is low but a good passer/playmaker will make his team's FG% go higher anyways

BUT a PGs whose FG% and passing/playmaking is good will be even better for his team. Agree right?

Yes, but it mainly depends on how much the difference in playmaking ability is, and not their FG% difference. It's like 90% and 10%.

[Glove_20]

:cheers:
Yeah you too
:cheers:


So after all those pages, us 4 actually agreed the whole time...


Payton is the better overall player
Kidd is the better Pure PG
Payton can help some teams better than Kidd
Kidd can help some times better than Payton


And we all agree on that


I was actually arguing the top one the whole time, and you guys were arguing something else the whole time, so thats why it took so long.

Right when you said Stockton > Big O, I realized that we were going diff. paths

[sbw19]

Do this mean we can move on to more important topics? Say, the Lakers-vs-Suns? :P

[wang4three]

Kidd's shooting isn't that much of a concern because his shooting/scoring is money in big games/clutch situations.
Yes.

[G-train]

yes












100 posts

[Shep]

gary payton in '96 (his prime) is better than steve nash, or jason kidd at any point in their career

[dejordan]

Totally depends on the team. They all at the tops of their games played on teams built just for their style.

On Paytons Sonics

1Payton
2Kidd
3nash

On Kidds Suns and Nets

1Kidd
2nash
3Payton


On Nashs Suns

1Nash
2Kidd
3Payton


As total players skill by skill Payton is #1. But would have a hard time stepping in for the others.

They are close in impact. Just comes down to what you need. If it has to be ranked as total players:

1. Payton
2. Kidd
3. Nash

As pointguards

Nash/Kidd about tied
Payton

Who id want to start a team not knowing what else id get? The kind of player I feel could fit in in any situation?

Kidd
Nash/Payton tied

I cant think of any situation id not want Kidd. I wouldnt want Nash if I had a horrible defensive backcourt and my "finishers" were more one on one types. I wouldnt want Payton if I had a ball dominating 2 guard. Id feel good about Kidd in any setting. He cant score like the other 2. But the team wont fail to get it done with him on the floor.

Building a team from scratch I take Kidd and feel pretty good about it. Any team I could come up with I think hed be great on. OR at least closest to his best. I think the situation you drop Kidd in has less effect on his play than the other 2.

this is a great post, kblaze. i agree, except that i might take gp ahead of kidd if i had a blank roster. mostly because i know gp can playmake and run the break, not on the level of kidd, but i also know that kidd can't be counted on in an inside - outside game as a shooter (say if you had shaq or hakeem and wanted to surround him with shooters - you'd particularly want your best entry passer to be able to hit shots off the kick out). payton might not be a great 3 point shooter (like nash), but he's far more reliable than kidd who can lose his outside touch for weeks at a time.

the ball dominating 2 guard might be an issue with gary, but in most cases it's probably a better idea for gp to be the ball dominator and the two guard to learn to play off the ball (can't think of many sg's that are better ball in hand than payton). exceptions are guys like wade and iverson, who create more than they shoot / cut, but i'm not sure that would be a problem for payton. he played well in the 96 olympics sharing the ball with hardaway and did a good job with cassell in milwaukee. it wouldn't maximize his talents to take the ball out of his hand, but the same could be said for pretty much any pg.

i take him ahead of nash because gp is lockdown at the 1 and 2, and nash couldn't stay in front of smush last night (steve's team d has definitely gotten stronger, but his one on one defense remains atrocious). also gp can create for himself and others in the half court no matter what roster he has because he's one of those guys that is stronger than everyone who's quicker than him and quicker than everyone who's stronger than him, and he has all those floaters and the midrange and post-up game. put nash on a team with no good pick and roll / pick and pop finishers and poor runners, and his effectiveness would nose dive (imo).

the only reason i could think of to demote gp from the top spot is if he had a history as a team chemistry disruptor, and other than his run ins with karl (that didn't seem to hurt the team any), his high intensity and great big ego haven't ever seemed to hinder team play.

[20 Dimes A Game]

The Glove gets my vote.

[wang4three]

kidd can't be counted on in an inside - outside game as a shooter (say if you had shaq or hakeem and wanted to surround him with shooters - you'd particularly want your best entry passer to be able to hit shots off the kick out). payton

As a set shooter Kidd is just as reliable to hit the shot these days. Obviously he's not Nash level, but he hits them far more often than not.

[dejordan]

As a set shooter Kidd is just as reliable to hit the shot these days. Obviously he's not Nash level, but he hits them far more often than not.
i actually argued that same point earlier this season because i was so impressed with kidd's improved outside touch, but watching so many YES games this year changed my mind. he'll be money with that set shot three for a stretch, and then he'll lose it for a long stretch. he has the shot in his repetoire for sure, but if you're asking him to play that kenny smith / derek fisher role as a consistent catch and shoot guy in crucial moments, you're really rolling the dice. i'd be much more comfortable with prime payton in that scenario.

[Glove_20]

this is a great post, kblaze. i agree, except that i might take gp ahead of kidd if i had a blank roster. mostly because i know gp can playmake and run the break, not on the level of kidd, but i also know that kidd can't be counted on in an inside - outside game as a shooter (say if you had shaq or hakeem and wanted to surround him with shooters - you'd particularly want your best entry passer to be able to hit shots off the kick out). payton might not be a great 3 point shooter (like nash), but he's far more reliable than kidd who can lose his outside touch for weeks at a time.

the ball dominating 2 guard might be an issue with gary, but in most cases it's probably a better idea for gp to be the ball dominator and the two guard to learn to play off the ball (can't think of many sg's that are better ball in hand than payton). exceptions are guys like wade and iverson, who create more than they shoot / cut, but i'm not sure that would be a problem for payton. he played well in the 96 olympics sharing the ball with hardaway and did a good job with cassell in milwaukee. it wouldn't maximize his talents to take the ball out of his hand, but the same could be said for pretty much any pg.

i take him ahead of nash because gp is lockdown at the 1 and 2, and nash couldn't stay in front of smush last night (steve's team d has definitely gotten stronger, but his one on one defense remains atrocious). also gp can create for himself and others in the half court no matter what roster he has because he's one of those guys that is stronger than everyone who's quicker than him and quicker than everyone who's stronger than him, and he has all those floaters and the midrange and post-up game. put nash on a team with no good pick and roll / pick and pop finishers and poor runners, and his effectiveness would nose dive (imo).

the only reason i could think of to demote gp from the top spot is if he had a history as a team chemistry disruptor, and other than his run ins with karl (that didn't seem to hurt the team any), his high intensity and great big ego haven't ever seemed to hinder team play.


:applause:
Great Post Dejordan


I would agree with almost all of that

[Glove_20]

By the way. I have been arguing vs. Kidd the whole thread


But Kidd is one of my favorite players of all-time...So I actually really like him

[NugzHeat3]

No...I stop because im talking to you about Gary Payton. which is just pointless. You and Gary, Fab and Dirk, and a few people and Kobe are just not worth taking time to talk to on the issue. There have been very very few people who go into all that "He just dont know what hes talking about" **** with me and the yare all people like you. Crazy over the top bias towards a player. Off the top of my head you are the 4th. First was Madefromdust who believed Tony Parker was better than AI back in like 02. AAP who has a deep personal obsession with Kobe. Then Fab who believes Dirk is better than Bird. And You...who seem to worship Gary Payton.

All of you have so heavily invested yourselves into the defense or hatred of a player that extended discussion with them on that player is simply not worth it. You have proven this to me a number of times. The first time when I saw I needed to block you was after you claimed Zo was only a great defender for 2 seasons(among the dumbest things said in sports fan history) because he was compared to Payton. I eventually forgot why I had you blocked and unblocked you. Only to have you call me a dumb because you cant read yesterday. Resulting in you deleting your own posts and saying youre lucky nobody quoted you to prove that idiocy ever came from you. And then today....I dont know what im talking about because again....you look so hard for Payton hatred you take "I wouldnt put him next to a ball dominating point" to mean "Gary Payton is a ball dominating point" and call me ignorant for being wrong about an issue you made up in your head.

And you really have to wonder why I dont pay attention to your "points"? every time I fool myself into thinking you might have something to say im blindsided by a level of bias few could ever approach. Ive been on here for 6 seasons and talked to smarter people than you who actually knew the game about much harder points to make than a hall of fame point like Jason Kidd being better in some situations than another HOF point in Gary Payton. And thats ignoring the fact that I said Payton is a better overall player.

The reason I dont find you worth my time often is because I dont come here to argue with people who dont care about reality as much as the players they love or hate.

"Gary Payton outplayed MJ in the finals"

"Gary Payton is the only winner on the level of Shaq and Duncan"

"Gary Payton is inarguably a much better defender than Zo in his prime"

"Gary Payton is better than _____ "

"The Heat need Gary Payton to ____"

Gary Payton, Gary Payton, Gary Payton.

If I wanted to deal with a single minded repetitious parrot id go buy a parrot and teach it to sing the Chilis baby back ribs song over and over. At least I could get a laugh out of it.

Because this **** doesnt bother me if its funny. But at some point unintentional humor gets old. You watch a guy fall down a hill its gonna stop being funny eventually. Feel like ive been watching you roll down a hill for months. I just cant keep watching. Only reason to even keep glancing is to see if the grass stains match the green in your Payton throwback you probably never take off.

But even that has lost my interest.

Do what you do. I dont need to be involved. I'll just go back to having you blocked. Maybe in a month or two ill check to see if you have reached the bottom of the hill yet.
:roll: :roll:

For ****s sake, I'm in tears.

[DKLaker]

Is this a joke???? Are you kids too young to remember WHY they called Gary Payton "The Glove"????? He would flat out lock guys down and light them up!!!!

Nash > Kidd

You should be talking about Magic Johnson and John Stockton.....and Zeke.

[dyna]

1) Kidd
2) Payton
3) Nash

[Smoke117]

People that think that Gary paytons DPOY award means anything are idiots. That was a novelty award the media loves to throw a perimeter player every once in awhile. If Gary really wanted to he could go put that on David Robinson's mantle where it really belongs. Hell Even if were talking just perimeter players he could take it to Scottie Pippen's house at that and put it on his mantle. Jason Kidd was always a better defender than Gary Payton because he was a significantly superior help/team defender. Gary Payton may be a great one on one defender, but Jason Kidd made a bigger impact for his teams defenses because he was just all around just more involved in what was going on while on defense and not just trying to "lock his man down".

[Go Getter]

Wouldn't part of being a pure PG be playing some defense, like every once in a while?

In that regard Kidd is still a better pure PG, because he's just as good of a passer and leader as Nash, yet plays defense and rebounds.
I agree wholeheartedly.

Kidd
Payton
Nash

Payton could be an irritant to opposing coaches and players as well as his own which is why I give a slight edge to Kidd.

[thelucifer69]

Love Steve. Respect Kidd, But i take Gary. Great all around player: Great score Great defence Good playmaker Great leadership.

[I.R.Beast]

Gary Payton......no brainer. How can people forget about the Glove man.

[I.R.Beast]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Kidd
Payton
Nash

Payton could be an irritant to opposing coaches and players as well as his own which is why I give a slight edge to Kidd.
BS...that's not a valid reason to go with Kidd...payton was flat out better, was a better leader, and had more success solely because of his play on both ends. There is no PG that i would take over Gary Payton not named magic johnson.

[Lebron23]

Nash
Kidd
Payton

I am not a huge fan of Steve Nash, but I really think he's the best passing Pg since John Stockton.

[ILLsmak]

GP all day! GP was a star.

Who is to say that GP couldn't push the point on a team that wanted him to only pass. Having great D at the PG position is so huge. You almost don't need to be good at being a PG as long as you can drag the other PG down to a lower level. But the thing is GP was good at being a PG.

A lot of his shots, as I've said in another thread, were just to piss the other point guard off. GP was very smart, had a lot of swagger. Kidd and Nash have done it for a long time and they deserve respect, but the truth is GP "easily" is the way to say it.

This might sound stupid, but I dunno why people hype a few extra assists when it's obvious both players are good PGs. Kidd/Nash might get an assist from passing to a star or for passing it someone who is wide open and hits a 3. But the fact that Payton could give you 20, even in a slow paced game, puts him above them.

Plus GP was a low turn over guy. I think GP controlled the game more than those other two; he put his mark on it.

I was watching an interview about who was the toughest matchup, and he said John Stockton. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

haha.

I dunno GP is just the shit. He's got the type of ego that influenced a bball game.

Edit: lolol @ that video. Had to watch it again... he see Karl Malone like booooop right there... booop...

-Smak

[bizil]

Wow u got three of the GOAT PG's! If i had to pick I would go GP. In terms of combining scoring, assists-dimes, and defense, he's the best PG ever in that aspect along with Clyde Frazier. In terms of "pure PG" or passing skill-mentality I feel Kidd and Nash are pretty much a tie and ahead of GP. However GP was an excellent floor general, among the best scoring PG's ever, and is arguably the greatest defensive PG ever.

But in GOAT terms (longevity being great, team accolades, solo accolades, numbers) I think Kidd is ahead of both. And Nash is nipping at his heels with those two MVPs. Payton I would probably rank behind both in GOAT terms as of now. But as far as peak value or the PG I would want, give me the Glove!

[Yung D-Will]

Nash's efficency blows Paytons so far out of the water its not even funny.
Payton has 2 seasons shooting 50 percent from the filed.. Nash has 6.

Payton has 0 seasons shooting above 40 percent from the 3 point line. Nash has 13.

Payton is a career 73% free throw shooter whiles Nash is top 3 all time in free throw percent and I think he's only one of two people to shoot above 90% for their career from the foul line.

Not to mention Nash is part of the very exclusive 50/40/90 club and the only person besides Bird to have more than 1 50/40/90 season ( He has 2) Whiles Nash has double the 50/40/90 seasons bird has. Nash isn't just one of the most efficent pg's of all time. He's one of the most efficent players of all time easily.

[Cali Syndicate]

I prefer Payton because he is more of the all around balanced player.

Nash is mainly for offense regards and while Kidd is great for an offense, he's never really been a scorer. Kidd's defensive premise is among the best at his position too though.

The thing I find amazing is the longevity of Nash and Kidd, Nash especially. Kidd has found a great role on the Mavs and has been playing it perfectly.

[Yung D-Will]

Honestly Nash/Payton/Kidd are so completly differnt that it's really hard to compare them. But they all up right after guys like Stockton and Isiah all time