Dirk will end up being the most underrated player of ALL-TIME, >>>>> Kobe EASILY

[TonyMontana]

Was watching the game vs Portland yesterday. Down by like 6 with a minute left, he hits a three, gets an offensive rebound + tip in to send the game into OT. In OT he either either hits the big shot, or attracts the attention which leads to an easy shot for his teammate. He literally TOOK over the game.

He is 37 years old and his team is currently 11-8 in an incredible conference. His best teammates have been Deron Williams(who has been finished for years...) and Zaza PAchulia....Let that sink in for a minute. :oldlol:

Dirks supporting cast right now is probably even worse than Kobes.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20150930-1443655431-ns_28trio2.jpg.ece/BINARY/w940/1443655431-NS_28trio2.JPG

God damn!

Since 2001 when Dirk took the torch from Finley, Dallas has NEVER fallen below .500. In the Western Conference. Despite having absolutely TERRIBLE management by Mark Cuban who has made shit move after shit move. Ex: letting Nash(who would win two consecutive MVPs) leave for nothing. Ex: Letting Chandler go after Dirks title, Ex: Banking all in for Dwight/Dereon(lol) and constantly making these shitty little "minirebuilds" with supporting casts that mean absolute shit.

Dallas frontoffice is probably one of if not the worst in the league. They just have Dirk so they have gotten passes.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0517/nba_u_dirkts2_576.jpg

Literally the only reason anyone would put Kobe over Dirk all-time is because Kobe is more popular, plays for the biggest franchise, and won more titles due to constantly having better teammates surrounding him. As a guard who specializes in scoring the ball, he has way more appeal among the masses which adds to his "legacy", but ultimately means shit when being objective. Kobe is just a bigger Iverson(meaning he is better), but it just doesn't compare to a guy like Dirk.

Unfortunately people will put guys like Kobe and Iverson as the creme of the crop of the 00s era that we all adore, but true fans will know who the real beasts of that era were.

http://spartanpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dirk-duncan.jpg

Based on impact, Dirk is a top 10 player all-time and I will stand by this.

[WayOfWade]

You are right about the underrated part, and while I thought you gave a compelling argument, there's no way he's top ten all time. Just for some closure, who do you put in your top ten (in no particular order)?

[AirFederer]

Was watching the game vs Portland yesterday. Down by like 6 with a minute left, he hits a three, gets an offensive rebound + tip in to send the game into OT. In OT he either either hits the big shot, or attracts the attention which leads to an easy shot for his teammate. He literally TOOK over the game.

He is 37 years old and his team is currently 11-8 in an incredible conference. His best teammates have been Deron Williams(who has been finished for years...) and Zaza PAchulia....Let that sink in for a minute. :oldlol:

Dirks supporting cast right now is probably even worse than Kobes.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20150930-1443655431-ns_28trio2.jpg.ece/BINARY/w940/1443655431-NS_28trio2.JPG

God damn!

Since 2001 when Dirk took the torch from Finley, Dallas has NEVER fallen below .500. In the Western Conference. Despite having absolutely TERRIBLE management by Mark Cuban who has made shit move after shit move. Ex: letting Nash(who would win two consecutive MVPs) leave for nothing. Ex: Letting Chandler go after Dirks title, Ex: Banking all in for Dwight/Dereon(lol) and constantly making these shitty little "minirebuilds" with supporting casts that mean absolute shit.

Dallas frontoffice is probably one of if not the worst in the league. They just have Dirk so they have gotten passes.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0517/nba_u_dirkts2_576.jpg

Literally the only reason anyone would put Kobe over Dirk all-time is because Kobe is more popular, plays for the biggest franchise, and won more titles due to constantly having better teammates surrounding him. As a guard who specializes in scoring the ball, he has way more appeal among the masses which adds to his "legacy", but ultimately means shit when being objective. Kobe is just a bigger Iverson(meaning he is better), but it just doesn't compare to a guy like Dirk.

Unfortunately people will put guys like Kobe and Iverson as the creme of the crop of the 00s era that we all adore, but true fans will know who the real beasts of that era were.

http://spartanpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dirk-duncan.jpg

Based on impact, Dirk is a top 10 player all-time and I will stand by this.


Maybe top 10 is a bridge too far but with the rest I agree. I have him around 12. Dirk has done so much with so little. And he always played his teammates better. Much better. All while scoring at a relatively high efficiency within the offense, playing quality D, making plays, being a decoy etc :bowdown:

[StephHamann]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-02-2015/M2wlPq.gif

Dirk is making your average scrub looking like an allstar.

The only player that makes the game easier for his teammates is Curry, after that still Dirk. Defense has to focus so much on Dirk that the rest of the team can shine.

[TonyMontana]

Also a reminder that Dirk essentially ended Kobes career in 2011. This is the last time Kobe and the Lakers were relevant. They were coming off of two consecutive titles. They were swept including a 40 point Game 4 loss. The Lakers were the favorite in this series. After this year we would enter the Dwight Howard year which marked the beginning of the Lakers (and Kobes) irrelevance.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2011-05/61462158.jpg

During that 2011 playoff run, Dirk exerted his dominance over Kobe + Gasol, Durant + Westbrook, and LeBron + Wade.... His team was the underdog in every one of those series. which makes that run even more spectacular when you put it into perspective.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2011-05/61431247.jpg

[pastis]

he will def. be forgotten a couple of years after his retirement. sad story is sad. i mean if i read that someone didnt even know that it is debateble to take dirk over kg its just sad. im ok if some1 take kg over dirk (tough i have dirk higher all time). but it is at least debatable.

i cant even remember if dirk nowitzki was ever voted as a starter for the AS game....:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Sarcastic]

Making a thread like this after watching a game is the definition of being a prisoner of the moment.

He's easily in the top 25, arguably in the top 20, and some are putting him in the top 15. Nobody rated in those areas is ever underrated.

[TonyMontana]

You are right about the underrated part, and while I thought you gave a compelling argument, there's no way he's top ten all time. Just for some closure, who do you put in your top ten (in no particular order)?

The only absolute locks that I see are Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Kareem, Bird, and Magic. (no order) Which is only 6 guys.

Hakeem is in the same tier with Dirk. LeBron is either in this category or in the above 1.

So thats 3 more guys, bringing the total to 9.

Then you have the 60s guys (Wilt, Russell). It is tough to compare them with modern players, although I think Wilt would be ok because of his massive frame and athleticism. Russell I see being outclassed completely. Wilt finishes out the top 10.

I don't see any other player could be considered better than Dirk for building a team around long-term.

[FKAri]

Haven't seen OP post since Lebron was on the Heat :lol

Dirk may become underrated but he isn't better than Kobe. I'm not really going to go into much more detail than that.

[TonyMontana]

he will def. be forgotten a couple of years after his retirement. sad story is sad. i mean if i read that someone didnt even know that it is debateble to take dirk over kg its just sad. im ok if some1 take kg over dirk (tough i have dirk higher all time). but it is at least debatable.

i cant even remember if dirk nowitzki was ever voted as a starter for the AS game....:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

KG is a "more complete player" than Dirk, but then again so would a guy like Lamar Odom.

The ultimate factor is how many wins one guy is responsible for. Having Dirk alone in his prime which lasted over 10+ years meant you were guaranteed to have 50+ wins.

There is not a lot of guys in NBA History at all, where their mere presence guarantees 50 wins. Especially not for as long as it did for Dirk. He was that good for an entire decade.

Guys like KG, and Kobe weren't even making the playoffs when they had subpar casts, yet Dirk was still making deep playoff runs and winning a title with guys like Josh Howard and Tyson Chandler as his best teammates.

[Akrazotile]

He's above Kobe without a doubt.

[ArbitraryWater]

You are right about the underrated part, and while I thought you gave a compelling argument, there's no way he's top ten all time. Just for some closure, who do you put in your top ten (in no particular order)?

He doesn't have to be top 10, but people actually think he has no argument over Kobe, which is ridiculous.. Dirk's impact is GOAT level (top 10-15).

[Akrazotile]

Also DWill should go back to painting his hair on.

[game3524]

He doesn't have to be top 10, but people actually think he has no argument over Kobe, which is ridiculous.. Dirk's impact is GOAT level (top 10-15).

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Also DWill should go back to painting his hair on.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Human Error]

Dirk is definitely better than Kobe. Tim Duncan is also better than Kobe.

[feyki]

Dirk probably most underrated player at nba history . When i was a child he was best player in the nba . But Don Nelson hurt Dirk's career . Dirk never reach again his 2006-2007 level .

If Dirk wasn't faced Don Nelson , He was champion at 2007 and he had great prime like 2008-2010 Kobe , 2000-2002 Shaq or 2012-2014 Lebron at between 2006-2008 . Probably he had 3 consecutive finals and 1 or 2 championship in between 2006-2008 .

This is about life chances . Dirk been Dirk with Don Nelson but Dirk hurt by Don Nelson .

So if this happened , Dirk probably close or on top 10 .

But for now , Dirk is 15-20 all time player .

[TonyMontana]

Dirk probably most underrated player at nba history . When i was a child he was best player in the nba . But Don Nelson hurt Dirk's career . Dirk never reach again his 2006-2007 level .

If Dirk wasn't faced Don Nelson , He was champion at 2007 and he had great prime like 2008-2010 Kobe , 2000-2002 Shaq or 2012-2014 Lebron at between 2006-2008 . Probably he had 3 consecutive finals and 1 or 2 championship in between 2006-2008 .

This is about life chances . Dirk been Dirk with Don Nelson but Dirk hurt by Don Nelson .

So if this happened , Dirk probably close or on top 10 .

But for now , Dirk is 15-20 all time player .

Dirk actually had a 3 year stretch where he dominated (led) the NBA in win shares, which is a stat that's results I tend to agree with.

2005: Dirk
2006: Dirk
2007: Dirk

Basically the 3 years right after Nash left where he was tasked with the challenge of carrying the team, he stepped up. Here's other recent stretches of who led the league in this category, so you can see that it's not a terrible stat which no basis behind it.

2008: Chris Paul
2009-2013: LeBron
2014: Durant
2015,2016: Curry

The 2007 series was unfortunate. The truth is Golden State was probably the team(out of any team in the playoffs) that had the best shot at beating Dallas that year. They were the only NBA team to win the season matchups with Dallas, due to Don Nelson and matchups. It was just a terrible matchup for Dallas. I don't think another team would have beat them, considering the 2007 Spurs(the champions) weren't that great that year. Really unlucky.

[Keno]

The only absolute locks that I see are Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Kareem, Bird, and Magic. (no order) Which is only 6 guys.

Hakeem is in the same tier with Dirk. LeBron is either in this category or in the above 1.

So thats 3 more guys, bringing the total to 9.

Then you have the 60s guys (Wilt, Russell). It is tough to compare them with modern players, although I think Wilt would be ok because of his massive frame and athleticism. Russell I see being outclassed completely. Wilt finishes out the top 10.

I don't see any other player could be considered better than Dirk for building a team around long-term.

:applause:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Dirk has won a championship with a lot less while Kobe had to win championships with a lot more. (Shaq, prime Gasol)

[feyki]

Dirk actually had a 3 year stretch where he dominated (led) the NBA in win shares, which is a stat that's results I tend to agree with.

2005: Dirk
2006: Dirk
2007: Dirk

Basically the 3 years right after Nash left where he was tasked with the challenge of carrying the team, he stepped up. Here's other recent stretches of who led the league in this category, so you can see that it's not a terrible stat which no basis behind it.

2008: Chris Paul
2009-2013: LeBron
2014: Durant
2015,2016: Curry

The 2007 series was unfortunate. The truth is Golden State was probably the team(out of any team in the playoffs) that had the best shot at beating Dallas that year. They were the only NBA team to win the season matchups with Dallas, due to Don Nelson and matchups. It was just a terrible matchup for Dallas. I don't think another team would have beat them, considering the 2007 Spurs(the champions) weren't that great that year. Really unlucky.

I mean he stepped up at 2006 playoffs . Dirk's 2003 or 2009 good seasons too . But after Gsw series Dirk was playing like older primes players .

I have a perfect example for this ;

Curry stepped up at last playoffs and he been another level player. And he gained a lot more this season . He's another level player than his 13 and 14 seasons . But If he will eliminated by Jazz at first round , and he will playing like older primes players , that's will unfortunate for Curry's career .

[ArbitraryWater]

I mean he stepped up at 2006 playoffs . Dirk's 2003 or 2009 good seasons too . But after Gsw series Dirk was playing like older primes players .

I have a perfect example for this ;

Curry stepped up at last playoffs and he been another level player. And he gained a lot more this season . He's another level player than his 13 and 14 seasons . But If he will eliminated by Jazz at first round , and he will playing like older primes players , that's will unfortunate for Curry's career .

This reads like a retarded kids idea of a 'perfect' example..

A guy like Don Nelson doesn't make you a worse player... Very stupid to think so. Dirk from 2009-2011 was around the same level from 2006-2007 anyway.

[brain drain]

This reads like a retarded kids idea of a 'perfect' example..

A guy like Don Nelson doesn't make you a worse player... Very stupid to think so. Dirk from 2009-2011 was around the same level from 2006-2007 anyway.

Main difference after 2006/2007: the team got worse. Mainly Josh Howard, who used to play pretty well for about 2.5 years.

Jason Terry also played worse for a long time, especially in the playoffs, until he came back spectacularly in the 2011 playoffs, especially the finals.


But actually I do think that losing the finals and then losing in the first round in 2007 prevented Dirk from really reaching his full potential. You see, he always gave the impression that he never completely saw himself at the level of the very best and I think that this final bit of belief does make a difference.

And it also does make a difference for the people around him. Remember when Avery tried to make Josh Howard the main scorer, at least for parts of games over Dirk? How Howard actually seemed to believe he was at Dirk's level for some time?

Heck, even how Cuban immediately tried to get that superstar and make Dirk the 2nd best player *right after the title*. I mean, how sensible is it to go on a mini-rebuild and let Tyson Chandler when Dirk's at the tail end of his prime and just dominated the 4th quarters of the playoffs in a way that hadn't been seen in a very long time? Any sensible GM would try stay in "win now" mode, right? And any normal super star would probably demand a trade if his team goes into rebuild-mode after winning a title, right?

For those reasons. I absolutely do think that some things might have played out a bit differently had Dirk won in 2006 or 2007, simply because of how it would've influenced his self confidence.

But on the other hand, 2011 wouldn't have been what it was without that story and all that drama leading up to it.

[ArbitraryWater]

Don Nelson hurt Dirk's career . Dirk never reach again his 2006-2007 level .

Dirk been Dirk with Don Nelson but Dirk hurt by Don Nelson .


Lol

[feyki]

This reads like a retarded kids idea of a 'perfect' example..

A guy like Don Nelson doesn't make you a worse player... Very stupid to think so. Dirk from 2009-2011 was around the same level from 2006-2007 anyway.

I don't always feed the trolls , but when i do German m

[ArbitraryWater]

[QUOTE=feyki]I don't always feed the trolls , but when i do German m

[StephHamann]

"childs" isn't even a ****ing word :roll:

The troll seems to be the one going off topic, try to stay on line, brie.

And if you atleast wanna get it right, try "Berlin", which makes you, a Turkish kid that can't speak English living in this Country, all the more backfire-y :oldlol:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[Fallen Angel]

So Dirk is making his teammates better? By doing what?


Are you people retarded

[feyki]

"childs" isn't even a ****ing word :roll:

The troll seems to be the one going off topic, try to stay on line, brie.

And if you atleast wanna get it right, try "Berlin", which makes you, a Turkish kid that can't speak English living in this Country, all the more backfire-y :oldlol:

Ahaha i always love make happy the children :oldlol: :oldlol: .

I'm not anglo saxon , so i am fine with bad english :oldlol: . Do you know about Gok "blue" Turks ? Thanks god for created me as a Turk.

[Magic 32]

He's above Kobe without a doubt.

https://hoopsallday.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/baroncomeback3.jpg

[BasedTom]

wes matthews > jordan clarkson and anyone on the lakers

but the rest of it is well thought out

[MiseryCityTexas]

Dirk probably most underrated player at nba history . When i was a child he was best player in the nba . But Don Nelson hurt Dirk's career . Dirk never reach again his 2006-2007 level .

If Dirk wasn't faced Don Nelson , He was champion at 2007 and he had great prime like 2008-2010 Kobe , 2000-2002 Shaq or 2012-2014 Lebron at between 2006-2008 . Probably he had 3 consecutive finals and 1 or 2 championship in between 2006-2008 .

This is about life chances . Dirk been Dirk with Don Nelson but Dirk hurt by Don Nelson .

So if this happened , Dirk probably close or on top 10 .

But for now , Dirk is 15-20 all time player .

Hell, Don Nelson ruined Mitch Richmond's career by trading him to the Kings.

[Bankaii]

What a dumb thread. Dirk is ranked perfectly fine, he's not underrated at all.

It's funny how people completely dismiss Dirk's shortcomings and MASSIVE chokes with great talent surrounding him.

He's having a great year but he has decent help and a top 5 coach in the league. Calling his impact GOAT level:oldlol:. He's not as good as making his teammates better as quite a few players.

2011 was a great run and all but he was one Lebron choke away from being ringless his entire career. Ranking him in the top 20 would be extremely generous, but top 10?:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

What a dumb thread. Dirk is ranked perfectly fine, he's not underrated at all.

It's funny how people completely dismiss Dirk's shortcomings and MASSIVE chokes with great talent surrounding him.

He's having a great year but he has decent help and a top 5 coach in the league. Calling his impact GOAT level:oldlol:. He's not as good as making his teammates better as quite a few players.

2011 was a great run and all but he was one Lebron choke away from being ringless his entire career. Ranking him in the top 20 would be extremely generous, but top 10?:roll:

Most are saying top 15, which is perfectly reasonable.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The Mavs have a top 13 defense right now....

You think that's Dirk????


:lol

[DMAVS41]

What a dumb thread. Dirk is ranked perfectly fine, he's not underrated at all.

It's funny how people completely dismiss Dirk's shortcomings and MASSIVE chokes with great talent surrounding him.

He's having a great year but he has decent help and a top 5 coach in the league. Calling his impact GOAT level:oldlol:. He's not as good as making his teammates better as quite a few players.

2011 was a great run and all but he was one Lebron choke away from being ringless his entire career. Ranking him in the top 20 would be extremely generous, but top 10?:roll:

I actually agree he's not under-rated anymore...might actually be a bit over-rated by some...as crazy as that is to say...never thought I'd say that about Dirk 5 or 6 years ago.

But...what "great talent" are you referring to?

Like...he had great help in 03...made the WCF...and got hurt...not like he didn't show out... beating the Spurs on the road in game 1 with 38/15.

What other team did he play on that had "great talent" that was actually healthy? I mean...the 04 Mavs had "great talent" I guess, but Nash got hurt, Finley declined...and Walker/Jamison is possibly the dumbest pairing ever to play next to Dirk.

I mean...it's just never been great help. His coaches just kind of sucked until Rick came in 09. I mean, think about that, he had Don...and then ****ing Avery through most of his prime. He was 30 before he got a legit championship level coach.

Here is the list of players that played with Dirk and made the All-NBA team;

02 - Nash (3rd team)
03 - Nash (3rd team)

Like really? You gonna call rosters like 07 "great talent"....I mean...yea, he played on some good teams, but great? Just no.

Great teams have a star player like Dirk and then at least one or two other guys around top 15 or top 20 in the league.

Again, that 03 team was a great team. It was the most talented Mavs team...might not have been the best because Dirk was pre peak, but it was a great team.

02 was really good as well, they lost to the 02 Kings after destroying KG's Wolves that everyone picked to shut down Dirk.

Like...I just don't see these Massive failures with great teams around him.

07 was by no means a great team..yes, it was a massive failure, but that wasn't a great team. Avery Johnson led teams with only one all nba caliber player...that are playing Diop, Devean, and Croshere a combined 50 minutes a game or whatever it was in the playoffs...aren't great teams.

Meh...rank Dirk wherever you want. Anywhere in the top 30 is cool with me...I'll disagree if you rank him that low, but meh...so many great players.

However, don't tell me Dirk played his prime/peak with a bunch of great teams.

He had one greatly talented team...it was in 03...and it was the 1 year of his career he got hurt in the playoffs after making the WCF.

[DMAVS41]

The Mavs have a top 13 defense right now....

You think that's Dirk????


:lol

No, it's not Dirk.

It's Rick...and Wes/Zaza

But Dirk being able to play 30 minutes a night on a defense that is top 13...without being surrounded by anything but a couple good defenders and then average defenders should maybe give you a hint that he's not as harmful on that side of the ball as you think...

And make no mistake...Dirk last year and this year has been worse on defense than he ever was.

So it's just kind of old hat at this point...he was never a great defender, but he was also never terrible. And was absolutely above average in his prime and more than capable of playing the most minutes on solid defenses....again, without elite defensive help.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Op is sad and gets no puss. Also 2/6

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And make no mistake...Dirk last year and this year has been worse on defense than he ever was.



By your own admission Dirk's defense is worse than ever yet the team defense is much improved.

2013 Mavs Def Rtg: 106.5 (19th of 30)

2014 Mavs Def Rtg: 108.7 (22nd of 30)

2015 Mavs Def Rtg: 106.4 (20th of 30)

2016 Mavs Def Rtg: 102.9 (13th of 30)

So why are we pretending he is the reason why they are off to a pretty good start again?

:confusedshrug:

[La Frescobaldi]

love Dirk, always did............ he's not remotely close to Kobe when he wore #8.
The hassle the Lakers will have is when they retire his jersey is most ish-kiddies will think they screwed up the number on the back

[game3524]

love Dirk, always did............ he's not remotely close to Kobe when he wore #8.
The hassle the Lakers will have is when they retire his jersey is most ish-kiddies will think they screwed up the number on the back

Sad....but true.:(

[DMAVS41]

By your own admission Dirk's defense is worse than ever yet the team defense is much improved.

2013 Mavs Def Rtg: 106.5 (19th of 30)

2014 Mavs Def Rtg: 108.7 (22nd of 30)

2015 Mavs Def Rtg: 106.4 (20th of 30)

2016 Mavs Def Rtg: 102.9 (13th of 30)

So why are we pretending he is the reason why they are off to a pretty good start again?

:confusedshrug:


Who has said his defense is the reason they are off to a good start?

He's the reason the offense isn't close to bottom of the league though.

The fact that this offense isn't worse than 19th is basically a miracle given how poorly everyone else has been scoring the ball. You'd have to actually watch the games, but Wes is in a shooting slump, Zaza just gets fed layups only...largely due to Dirk's gravity...and guys like Felton, Harris, Barea, and Parsons have been extremely inefficient.

Also, the pretty good start is misleading to an extent...this team barely has a positive differential. They aren't doing much other than win some close games...and Dirk, as he proved last night...is still capable of making big shots and opening things up for everyone

And I didn't say current Dirk was worse than ever...I thought his defense was worse last year actually. I said last year and this year was worse than ever imo (not counting his rookie/2nd year where he was just a deer in the headlights)....not that this year is his worst. Last year, especially when he got tired, was worse, but again...I have no idea if that was because the perimeter defense was beyond bad last year....

Here is a post I wrote tonight about this;

I love Dirk...as much as anyone, but lets tap the brakes on giving him all the credit for this.

Rick is a straight up genius head coach...he's a better coach than Dirk is a player right now.

Also, D-Will and Zaza are playing fantastic...and they deserve most of the credit for this.

Of course Dirk helps them all a lot, but lets not take away from watch some of the other guys are doing on their own.

This team's margins are slim and Dirk has clearly been the best player, but they are plus 2 points per 100 with Dirk and only -.6 points per 100 without him.

So I just think some of the other guys deserve a lot of credit as well...


You think that is me saying it's all Dirk...okay...move along

[TonyMontana]

You think that is me saying it's all Dirk...okay...move along

The Mavs are all Dirk. Carlisle is a great coach I'll agree, but there isn't a single other player that warrants shit on that team.

Without Dirk, the Mavericks would help complete the holy trinity of NBA shit along with the Lakers and Sixers. :roll:

Is there any other team you think a Dirkless Mavs would be better than?

Also just a general piece of advice....never try to appease to biased individuals . The kind of guys that ONLY post the same thing in every thread they appear in. In this case, it's the Kobe schlongriders. you will never see them post in a kobe discussion where they argue on the side opposite kobe.

[Goofsta Knicca]

Da Diggler vs Da Kobester

[DMAVS41]

The Mavs are all Dirk. Carlisle is a great coach I'll agree, but there isn't a single other player that warrants shit on that team.

Without Dirk, the Mavericks would help complete the holy trinity of NBA shit along with the Lakers and Sixers. :roll:

Is there any other team you think a Dirkless Mavs would be better than?

Also just a general piece of advice....never try to appease to biased individuals . The kind of guys that ONLY post the same thing in every thread they appear in. In this case, it's the Kobe schlongriders. you will never see them post in a kobe discussion where they argue on the side opposite kobe.

Can't agree with this at all.

Wes, Deron, and Zaza have proven themselves to be quality players this season.

Rick is an all time elite coach.

There is no ****ing way the Mavs without Dirk would be as bad as the Sixers or Lakers. Yea, they'd be a bad team if Charlie V was the starter, but they absolutely would not be as bad as the 2 or 3 worst teams.

They'd be bad, but not truly awful.

Dirk is simply currently over-rated if you think he's turing the Sixers into a playoff team. He isn't.

[Bankaii]

I actually agree he's not under-rated anymore...might actually be a bit over-rated by some...as crazy as that is to say...never thought I'd say that about Dirk 5 or 6 years ago.

But...what "great talent" are you referring to?

Like...he had great help in 03...made the WCF...and got hurt...not like he didn't show out... beating the Spurs on the road in game 1 with 38/15.

What other team did he play on that had "great talent" that was actually healthy? I mean...the 04 Mavs had "great talent" I guess, but Nash got hurt, Finley declined...and Walker/Jamison is possibly the dumbest pairing ever to play next to Dirk.

I mean...it's just never been great help. His coaches just kind of sucked until Rick came in 09. I mean, think about that, he had Don...and then ****ing Avery through most of his prime. He was 30 before he got a legit championship level coach.

Here is the list of players that played with Dirk and made the All-NBA team;

02 - Nash (3rd team)
03 - Nash (3rd team)

Like really? You gonna call rosters like 07 "great talent"....I mean...yea, he played on some good teams, but great? Just no.

Great teams have a star player like Dirk and then at least one or two other guys around top 15 or top 20 in the league.

Again, that 03 team was a great team. It was the most talented Mavs team...might not have been the best because Dirk was pre peak, but it was a great team.

02 was really good as well, they lost to the 02 Kings after destroying KG's Wolves that everyone picked to shut down Dirk.

Like...I just don't see these Massive failures with great teams around him.

07 was by no means a great team..yes, it was a massive failure, but that wasn't a great team. Avery Johnson led teams with only one all nba caliber player...that are playing Diop, Devean, and Croshere a combined 50 minutes a game or whatever it was in the playoffs...aren't great teams.

Meh...rank Dirk wherever you want. Anywhere in the top 30 is cool with me...I'll disagree if you rank him that low, but meh...so many great players.

However, don't tell me Dirk played his prime/peak with a bunch of great teams.

He had one greatly talented team...it was in 03...and it was the 1 year of his career he got hurt in the playoffs after making the WCF.
I probably should have used a more in depth word than great.

By "great" I didn't mean that his supporting cast compared to the rest of the league was anything special. I meant it more in the sense that his team as a whole had enough talent to put him in a position to win some series that he was unable to close. More of the fact that his shortcomings are inexcusable because he had solid help than saying his teams were stacked.

And as of the past few years I've become a huge Dirk fan, his game is beautiful despite aging. I personally have him in my top 25 all time and constantly switch him around in my top 5 PF all time. It's just recently he's been getting slightly overrated in terms of his overall career. Top 15 is slightly ridiculous for him to me but idk people value things differently so to each his own.

[TonyMontana]

Can't agree with this at all.

Wes, Deron, and Zaza have proven themselves to be quality players this season.

Rick is an all time elite coach.

There is no ****ing way the Mavs without Dirk would be as bad as the Sixers or Lakers. Yea, they'd be a bad team if Charlie V was the starter, but they absolutely would not be as bad as the 2 or 3 worst teams.

They'd be bad, but not truly awful.

Dirk is simply currently over-rated if you think he's turing the Sixers into a playoff team. He isn't.

Well then what other teams would they actually be better than without Dirk? Look at that roster. like i said right there at #3 completing the trinity with sixers/lakers.

The Sixers are an absolute historic level of shit, noone is as bad as them except apparently the Lakers who got owned by them last night. I'm not even sure if they count as a basketball team anymore though since their events are now just Kobe circlejerks where they encourage him to shoot 20 shots a game at 30% as some "last hurrah". if Kobe wasn't playing, the team would be a lot better.

37 year old Dirk might not be able to carry that Sixers shithole to the playoffs as he would literally have to do EVERYTHING. The skills are still there, but I dont think his body would hold up, but put younger Dirk on there? Bet the Sixers would be the 2nd seed in the East. :roll:

Replace Kobe with Dirk on the Lakers. Hibbert, Dirk, Randle, Lou williams, Clarkson, #2 overall pick PG.... looks a lot better.

[SCdac]

"I actually agree he's not under-rated anymore...might actually be a bit over-rated by some...as crazy as that is to say" - Dmavs

pretty much how I feel. He's definitely not underrated in 2015 by 2015-NBA fans. Dirk is widely popular amongst today's fans and there's no way he's the most underrated player ever

Bob Pettit, David Robinson, Kevin McHale, and other players will probably become more underrated in the grand scheme. HOF players who didn't really play in the internet and youtube-era (and weren't re-watched as much)

[DMAVS41]

I probably should have used a more in depth word than great.

By "great" I didn't mean that his supporting cast compared to the rest of the league was anything special. I meant it more in the sense that his team as a whole had enough talent to put him in a position to win some series that he was unable to close. More of the fact that his shortcomings are inexcusable because he had solid help than saying his teams were stacked.

And as of the past few years I've become a huge Dirk fan, his game is beautiful despite aging. I personally have him in my top 25 all time and constantly switch him around in my top 5 PF all time. It's just recently he's been getting slightly overrated in terms of his overall career. Top 15 is slightly ridiculous for him to me but idk people value things differently so to each his own.

Yea, thats cool

But what years are you referencing other than 07? Because the Mavs have actually over-achieved more in the playoffs than under-achieved

01 - Upset Jazz
02 - Beat Wolves in what most called a 50/50 series and a lot of people thought KG would dominate Dirk
03 - Made the WCF (Dirk hurt)
04 - Lost as underdogs to Kings (Nash hurt/terrible in series)
05 - Lost as underdogs to Suns
06 - Upset the Spurs
07 - Lost as favorites to Warriors
08 - Last as underdogs to New Orleans
09 - Upset the Spurs
10 - Last as slight favorites to Spurs
11 - Upset Lakers and heat
12 - Lost as underdogs to Thunder
14 - Lost as underdogs to Spurs
15 - Lost as underdogs to Rockets

I mean...you are looking at one huge loss as a favorite....and then a minor upset by the Spurs in 10.

I guess I just don't see these teams that should have been going deep. Other than 07...not one time were the Mavs favored to come out of the West.

I mean...think what you want about Dirk, but isn't that odd if his help was as good as you say?

[DMAVS41]

"I actually agree he's not under-rated anymore...might actually be a bit over-rated by some...as crazy as that is to say" - Dmavs

pretty much how I feel. He's definitely not underrated in 2015 by 2015-NBA fans. Dirk is widely popular amongst today's fans and there's no way he's the most underrated player ever

Bob Pettit, David Robinson, Kevin McHale, and other players will probably become more underrated in the grand scheme. HOF players who didn't really play in the internet and youtube-era (and weren't re-watched as much)

Dead on.

You can't say Dirk is under-rated if people at RealGM are putting him top 17 all time. Or people here routinely ranking him top 20. That is where he belongs...give or take.

Other guys...are far more under-rated....imo of course.

[juju151111]

The Mavs have a top 13 defense right now....

You think that's Dirk????


:lol
Dirk is a plus on defense this year. In fact he been a plus most of his career

[DMAVS41]

Dirk is a plus on defense this year. In fact he been a plus most of his career

The Mavs defense is 7.9 points per 100 worse with Dirk.

He has not been plus on defense this year.

[juju151111]

By your own admission Dirk's defense is worse than ever yet the team defense is much improved.

2013 Mavs Def Rtg: 106.5 (19th of 30)

2014 Mavs Def Rtg: 108.7 (22nd of 30)

2015 Mavs Def Rtg: 106.4 (20th of 30)

2016 Mavs Def Rtg: 102.9 (13th of 30)

So why are we pretending he is the reason why they are off to a pretty good start again?

:confusedshrug:
He the best player on the team

[juju151111]

The Mavs defense is 7.9 points per 100 worse with Dirk.

He has not been plus on defense this year.
I don't use that stat. I use RAPM and he been a plus defender.

[DMAVS41]

I don't use that stat. I use RAPM and he been a plus defender.


I thought you were saying he's been a plus to the Mavs on defense...

Yea, there is a lot of noise on all those metrics so far...I wouldn't put much stock in them with this sample size.

All I can say is that the defense looks worse with Dirk...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's not better or greater than Kobe, but I do put him in my top 15-20. Credit to dmavs/gino. Dude has been persistent with eye-opening facts and tidbits that only a diehard Mavs fan would know.

[ShaqTwizzle]

The Mavs defense is 7.9 points per 100 worse with Dirk.

He has not been plus on defense this year.

Don't those stats also say Miami is 8-10+pts worse with W-Side on the floor?
Seems like they have room for error (or maybe W-Side is just a horribly overrated defender).

(I actually do think W-Side is an overrated defender).

[DMAVS41]

Don't those stats also say Miami is 8-10+pts worse with W-Side on the floor?
Seems like they have room for error (or maybe W-Side is just a horribly overrated defender).

(I actually do think W-Side is an overrated defender).

there is a ton of noise in those regardless, but especially at this sample

i was just saying that because i thought he was saying Dirk had been a positive on defense for the Mavs defense....

[juju151111]

I thought you were saying he's been a plus to the Mavs on defense...

Yea, there is a lot of noise on all those metrics so far...I wouldn't put much stock in them with this sample size.

All I can say is that the defense looks worse with Dirk...
That stat is all over the place. Its been like 20 games. The results are starting to find player trends. All you have to do is not compare players with different roles and mins. The more games they play the more accurate it is and Dirk has been a plus. Not a huge plus, but not hurting his team. Dirk plays smart defense and is good at post defense. If you want to see bad defense watch james harden

[juju151111]

there is a ton of noise in those regardless, but especially at this sample

i was just saying that because i thought he was saying Dirk had been a positive on defense for the Mavs defense....
Dirk is a .88 on drapm. Its not some great defender or anything but he not detrimental to you team. He not retarded like someone like Harden. The stat you use is all over the place. Whiteside isn't a negative on defense anybody who watches him could see this. Rapm correctly rates him +2.5.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk is a .88 on drapm. Its not some great defender or anything but he not detrimental to you team. He not retarded like someone like Harden. The stat you use is all over the place. Whiteside isn't a negative on defense anybody who watches him could see this. Rapm correctly rates him +2.5.

Again, I thought you were saying he was a plus for the Mavs specifically

That is different than quantifying a player in general that accounts for help/opponents the way RAPM or ESPN's RPM do

But, I have to just say....Whiteside is vastly over-rated defensively imo...and very little could convince me that Dirk is an above average defender at his position...watching the games...he's just hidden on defense as much as possible and everyone on the team knows to help a lot

[juju151111]

Again, I thought you were saying he was a plus for the Mavs specifically

That is different than quantifying a player in general that accounts for help/opponents the way RAPM or ESPN's RPM do

But, I have to just say....Whiteside is vastly over-rated defensively imo...and very little could convince me that Dirk is an above average defender at his position...watching the games...he's just hidden on defense as much as possible and everyone on the team knows to help a lot
How is Whiteside vastly overrated defensively

[DMAVS41]

How is Whiteside vastly overrated defensively

I guess it depends on who is doing the rating. I should have said "some people vastly over-rate him"

He seems kind of stupid to me. Like...he's just always going to track for a block....regardless of the right rotation. In my opinion, he's just always thinking block...and he's a bit slow on rotations at times (again...this is effort/brains..imo)

Here is a perfect example...watch Brad Stevens set this whole thing up;

https://streamable.com/s1zf

Not saying he's bad or something...I just don't think his impact is as high as it seems the majority think.

[NBASTATMAN]

its getting close... Dirk still playing at a high level while Kobe struggles to shoot over 30 percent for the year.... LAKERS PLANS TO GET A LOTTERY PICK IS TO JUST LET KOBE PLAY AND SHOOT.... :rockon:

[Andrei89]

What do you mean "incredible conference"

The east teams are taking a shit on West this year. Get yo facts straight

[TheBigVeto]

Was watching the game vs Portland yesterday. Down by like 6 with a minute left, he hits a three, gets an offensive rebound + tip in to send the game into OT. In OT he either either hits the big shot, or attracts the attention which leads to an easy shot for his teammate. He literally TOOK over the game.

He is 37 years old and his team is currently 11-8 in an incredible conference. His best teammates have been Deron Williams(who has been finished for years...) and Zaza PAchulia....Let that sink in for a minute. :oldlol:

Dirks supporting cast right now is probably even worse than Kobes.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20150930-1443655431-ns_28trio2.jpg.ece/BINARY/w940/1443655431-NS_28trio2.JPG

God damn!

Since 2001 when Dirk took the torch from Finley, Dallas has NEVER fallen below .500. In the Western Conference. Despite having absolutely TERRIBLE management by Mark Cuban who has made shit move after shit move. Ex: letting Nash(who would win two consecutive MVPs) leave for nothing. Ex: Letting Chandler go after Dirks title, Ex: Banking all in for Dwight/Dereon(lol) and constantly making these shitty little "minirebuilds" with supporting casts that mean absolute shit.

Dallas frontoffice is probably one of if not the worst in the league. They just have Dirk so they have gotten passes.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0517/nba_u_dirkts2_576.jpg

Literally the only reason anyone would put Kobe over Dirk all-time is because Kobe is more popular, plays for the biggest franchise, and won more titles due to constantly having better teammates surrounding him. As a guard who specializes in scoring the ball, he has way more appeal among the masses which adds to his "legacy", but ultimately means shit when being objective. Kobe is just a bigger Iverson(meaning he is better), but it just doesn't compare to a guy like Dirk.

Unfortunately people will put guys like Kobe and Iverson as the creme of the crop of the 00s era that we all adore, but true fans will know who the real beasts of that era were.

http://spartanpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dirk-duncan.jpg

Based on impact, Dirk is a top 10 player all-time and I will stand by this.

Great post.
Dirk is a true Hall of Famer, 2nd GOAT PF.
Kobe and Iverson are nowhere as great as The Almighty Dirkrules

[Bankaii]

Yea, thats cool

But what years are you referencing other than 07? Because the Mavs have actually over-achieved more in the playoffs than under-achieved

01 - Upset Jazz
02 - Beat Wolves in what most called a 50/50 series and a lot of people thought KG would dominate Dirk
03 - Made the WCF (Dirk hurt)
04 - Lost as underdogs to Kings (Nash hurt/terrible in series)
05 - Lost as underdogs to Suns
06 - Upset the Spurs
07 - Lost as favorites to Warriors
08 - Last as underdogs to New Orleans
09 - Upset the Spurs
10 - Last as slight favorites to Spurs
11 - Upset Lakers and heat
12 - Lost as underdogs to Thunder
14 - Lost as underdogs to Spurs
15 - Lost as underdogs to Rockets

I mean...you are looking at one huge loss as a favorite....and then a minor upset by the Spurs in 10.

I guess I just don't see these teams that should have been going deep. Other than 07...not one time were the Mavs favored to come out of the West.

I mean...think what you want about Dirk, but isn't that odd if his help was as good as you say?
05- Although they were underdogs I think that was a very winnable series. Dirk played horribly in that close out game and was the reason the lost. Even with him playing below his standards they still score over 100 points and only lost by 4. If Dirk shows up in that overtime I think they win the series.

07- A lot more than just a loss. After the RS they had just had that upset was pathetic. And Dirk scoring 8 points on 15% is unacceptable.

Other than those two series Dirk performed great and either was unlucky with injuries or simply lost to a better team.

In no way am I putting all the blame on Dirk for those 2 years. But as the superstar of that team he underperformed greatly in close out games.

And again, not saying Dirk had the best help in the league, just that he had adequate help to win the two series listed and his underperformance in those series is inexcusable.

[juju151111]

I guess it depends on who is doing the rating. I should have said "some people vastly over-rate him"

He seems kind of stupid to me. Like...he's just always going to track for a block....regardless of the right rotation. In my opinion, he's just always thinking block...and he's a bit slow on rotations at times (again...this is effort/brains..imo)

Here is a perfect example...watch Brad Stevens set this whole thing up;

https://streamable.com/s1zf

Not saying he's bad or something...I just don't think his impact is as high as it seems the majority think.
He a big men who likes to stay in the paint on defense. Even Duncan does the some times. That one play doesn't make him bad anyways. He currently leading the league in blocks, has a 88 DRtg. He is in the top 5 lowest % shot at the rim wgen he is near by. He a good defender. He not Duncan through but he is still good.

[DMAVS41]

He a big men who likes to stay in the paint on defense. Even Duncan does the some times. That one play doesn't make him bad anyways. He currently leading the league in blocks, has a 88 DRtg. He is in the top 5 lowest % shot at the rim wgen he is near by. He a good defender. He not Duncan through but he is still good.

This is a straw man.

Did I call him bad? No.

Did I say one play meant much? No.

I agree he's not bad...he's quite good. I just think some people gravitate towards him too strongly. Gobert is better imo.

[DMAVS41]

05- Although they were underdogs I think that was a very winnable series. Dirk played horribly in that close out game and was the reason the lost. Even with him playing below his standards they still score over 100 points and only lost by 4. If Dirk shows up in that overtime I think they win the series.

07- A lot more than just a loss. After the RS they had just had that upset was pathetic. And Dirk scoring 8 points on 15% is unacceptable.

Other than those two series Dirk performed great and either was unlucky with injuries or simply lost to a better team.

In no way am I putting all the blame on Dirk for those 2 years. But as the superstar of that team he underperformed greatly in close out games.

And again, not saying Dirk had the best help in the league, just that he had adequate help to win the two series listed and his underperformance in those series is inexcusable.


Inexcusable?

Players don't always play great.

I could go down every all time great and find at lest 2 to 3 series that they underperformed.

LOL...inexcusable...

And, part of the reason Dirk isn't ranked higher...is because of some of his play in certain series/moments. You make it sound like someone is arguing he's the perfect player or something.

Just curious... Where do you rank Lebron?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/status/672133569775599617?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
:applause: :applause:

[SexSymbol]

This is the definition of the prisoner of the moment post

[ArbitraryWater]

This is the definition of the prisoner of the moment post

the ****? Team did the same thing last year.. and the year before... and well, Dirk's been winning 50+ games since 2001...

you living under a rock?

[StephHamann]

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/status/672133569775599617?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
:applause: :applause:

http://i.imgur.com/jnIRkOZ.gif

"damn he is the player i always dreamed i could be"

[pastis]

https://twitter.com/bobbykaralla/status/672133569775599617?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
:applause: :applause:

There are 37 players in the league with at least 15 clutch FGA. Dirk leads them all with a 64.7 FG% on those attempts

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Bankaii]

Inexcusable?

Players don't always play great.

I could go down every all time great and find at lest 2 to 3 series that they underperformed.

LOL...inexcusable...

And, part of the reason Dirk isn't ranked higher...is because of some of his play in certain series/moments. You make it sound like someone is arguing he's the perfect player or something.

Just curious... Where do you rank Lebron?
Where did I state that ever superstar doesn't underperform? My whole premise was the fact that Dirk's shortcomings are often over looked and don't nearly affect his legacy like it does many other ATGs.

2005 vs the Suns was a winnable series. In that close out game Dirk's team showed up and he choked. Yes, that's 100% inexcusable.
Game 6 vs Suns-
Terry: 36/5/2/2/1 on 52%.
Howard: 21/14/3/2/1 on 50%.
Dampier: 13/6/1/1/2 on 75%.
Dirk: 28/13/6/0/0 on 36%.
He had a great game until overtime where he went 0-5 and only scored 1 point. He was a net negative and by far the worst defensive player in the starring rotation. As the superstar, that can't happen. It's inexcusable that he lost that game because his team showed up.

2007-
There's no excuse for a 1st seed 67 win team to get bounced in the first round. That's all on Dirk.
Dirk average 28/11 on 38% for the series and had 8 points on 15% in a close out game. No explanation is needed on that. Dirk is known for his clutch nature but his chokes in close out games rarely get brought up.

And I glad you brought up Lebron. He gets crucified for his 8 point game, but I've never even see Dirk's get mentioned. I understand Lebron was in the Finals but an 8 point game is horrible regardless. Why does Lebron get labeled a choker for one series while Dirk is known as clutch despite choking just as hard?

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Russell
5) Wilt
6) Duncan
7) Shaq
8) Bird
9) Kobe
10) Lebron

Why do you ask?

[DMAVS41]

Where did I state that ever superstar doesn't underperform? My whole premise was the fact that Dirk's shortcomings are often over looked and don't nearly affect his legacy like it does many other ATGs.

2005 vs the Suns was a winnable series. In that close out game Dirk's team showed up and he choked. Yes, that's 100% inexcusable.
Game 6 vs Suns-
Terry: 36/5/2/2/1 on 52%.
Howard: 21/14/3/2/1 on 50%.
Dampier: 13/6/1/1/2 on 75%.
Dirk: 28/13/6/0/0 on 36%.
He had a great game until overtime where he went 0-5 and only scored 1 point. He was a net negative and by far the worst defensive player in the starring rotation. As the superstar, that can't happen. It's inexcusable that he lost that game because his team showed up.

2007-
There's no excuse for a 1st seed 67 win team to get bounced in the first round. That's all on Dirk.
Dirk average 28/11 on 38% for the series and had 8 points on 15% in a close out game. No explanation is needed on that. Dirk is known for his clutch nature but his chokes in close out games rarely get brought up.

And I glad you brought up Lebron. He gets crucified for his 8 point game, but I've never even see Dirk's get mentioned. I understand Lebron was in the Finals but an 8 point game is horrible regardless. Why does Lebron get labeled a choker for one series while Dirk is known as clutch despite choking just as hard?

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Russell
5) Wilt
6) Duncan
7) Shaq
8) Bird
9) Kobe
10) Lebron

Why do you ask?

A few things...

1. Dirk's 07 series is brought up constantly... Are you serious? I don't think I've ever seen a Dirk thread without 07 on repeat.

2. How can something be "inexcusable" if all the greats had underperforming series, games, moments.

Nobody spends time negatively on Dirk in elimination games because he's one of the best elimination game players ever... It's absurd how good he's been in those situations overall.

3. Lebron? Because his 07 finals and 11 finals are probably worse than anything Dirk ever did. But you've clearly "excused" that as he's in your top 10.

Same shit with Kobe's horrible moments

Same thing with Bird losing as the favorite a handful of times

Etc.

You must be new or just spent years here not paying attention.... Dirk gets killed for that 07 series more than Lebrom does for 11 and so on

[LBJ 23]

Dirk gets killed for that 07 series more than Lebrom does for 11 and so on


Lets not get carried away here....

[DaOldLion]

Where did I state that ever superstar doesn't underperform? My whole premise was the fact that Dirk's shortcomings are often over looked and don't nearly affect his legacy like it does many other ATGs.

2005 vs the Suns was a winnable series. In that close out game Dirk's team showed up and he choked. Yes, that's 100% inexcusable.
Game 6 vs Suns-
Terry: 36/5/2/2/1 on 52%.
Howard: 21/14/3/2/1 on 50%.
Dampier: 13/6/1/1/2 on 75%.
Dirk: 28/13/6/0/0 on 36%.
He had a great game until overtime where he went 0-5 and only scored 1 point. He was a net negative and by far the worst defensive player in the starring rotation. As the superstar, that can't happen. It's inexcusable that he lost that game because his team showed up.

2007-
There's no excuse for a 1st seed 67 win team to get bounced in the first round. That's all on Dirk.
Dirk average 28/11 on 38% for the series and had 8 points on 15% in a close out game. No explanation is needed on that. Dirk is known for his clutch nature but his chokes in close out games rarely get brought up.

And I glad you brought up Lebron. He gets crucified for his 8 point game, but I've never even see Dirk's get mentioned. I understand Lebron was in the Finals but an 8 point game is horrible regardless. Why does Lebron get labeled a choker for one series while Dirk is known as clutch despite choking just as hard?

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Russell
5) Wilt
6) Duncan
7) Shaq
8) Bird
9) Kobe
10) Lebron

Why do you ask?


excellent points

in 05 he lost to a team led by his former teammate from the year before

06 choked in epic fashion during the finals.. I mean how does shit like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOkHFqiuV3c

get swept under the rug? 3 seconds left with a chance to tie the game and you miss the FT...

then 07 happened..

meanwhile we hold Kobe to a ridiculously higher standard..

Dirk shoots 41.6% in the finals and its considered great, Kobe shots 40.5% the year before and he was "inefficient" :lol

career playoff fg%... Kobe = 45%, Dirk = 46%.. Kobe has played 80 more playoff games and shoots at a higher volume.. yet they shoot the same % in the playoffs.. and as a big Dirk should have the higher FG%.. yet the are basically the same and one is "inefficient" while the other is an "extremely efficient player" :oldlol:

[Bankaii]

A few things...

1. Dirk's 07 series is brought up constantly... Are you serious? I don't think I've ever seen a Dirk thread without 07 on repeat.

2. How can something be "inexcusable" if all the greats had underperforming series, games, moments.

Nobody spends time negatively on Dirk in elimination games because he's one of the best elimination game players ever... It's absurd how good he's been in those situations overall.

3. Lebron? Because his 07 finals and 11 finals are probably worse than anything Dirk ever did. But you've clearly "excused" that as he's in your top 10.

Same shit with Kobe's horrible moments

Same thing with Bird losing as the favorite a handful of times

Etc.

You must be new or just spent years here not paying attention.... Dirk gets killed for that 07 series more than Lebrom does for 11 and so on
1) Maybe it's because I am new, but I haven't seen a 07 Dirk thread. And it's not brought up any near as much as 11 Bron, that literally us brought up everyday. It's mostly by trolls tho, so I digress.

2) It seems you think that I'm picking on Dirk exclusively. I think all underperformance are "inexcusable" if a player isn't injured and his team shoes up. 2011 Bron, 2007 Dirk, 2010 Kobe, B2B 8 point Finals Bird, Tragic Bronson, etc. are all inexcusable because these players had no reason to not play up to their standard and they didn't.

3) I don't excuse Lebron's shortcomings. 07 I give him a slight pass because the Cavs overachieved and he was only 22. But 2011 I definitely don't excuse and it's the main reason he isn't higher on my GOAT list. He's top 10 because of his accomplishments outside of that one series. If 2011 didn't happen I'd probably have him above Kobe/Bird, but it hurts his legacy. Lebron is also a great elimination game player (I think he has the highest PPG in them), but is still labeled a choker.

In no way am I holding Dirk back on my ATG list because of 2 series, but I think they get overlooked a little too often. I still have him top 25 and arguably 3rd GOAT PF.

[ArbitraryWater]

1) Maybe it's because I am new, but I haven't seen a 07 Dirk thread. And it's not brought up any near as much as 11 Bron, that literally us brought up everyday. It's mostly by trolls tho, so I digress.

2) It seems you think that I'm picking on Dirk exclusively. I think all underperformance are "inexcusable" if a player isn't injured and his team shoes up. 2011 Bron, 2007 Dirk, 2010 Kobe, B2B 8 point Finals Bird, Tragic Bronson, etc. are all inexcusable because these players had no reason to not play up to their standard and they didn't.

3) I don't excuse Lebron's shortcomings. 07 I give him a slight pass because the Cavs overachieved and he was only 22. But 2011 I definitely don't excuse and it's the main reason he isn't higher on my GOAT list. He's top 10 because of his accomplishments outside of that one series. If 2011 didn't happen I'd probably have him above Kobe/Bird, but it hurts his legacy. Lebron is also a great elimination game player (I think he has the highest PPG in them), but is still labeled a choker.

In no way am I holding Dirk back on my ATG list because of 2 series, but I think they get overlooked a little too often. I still have him top 25 and arguably 3rd GOAT PF.

Kobe and Bird have had equally worse and a worse volume of bad series' than LeBron :oldlol:

Same for the people you have ahead of Dirk if he's top 25, Karl Malone, Barkley, Robinson, Moses, etc etc etc...

Dirk's good to bad playoff ratio is pretty damn fantastic.

As for 'DaOldLion', Dirk missed that GT FT, it's his only 'clutch' FT miss of his playoff career (not just saying that, statistically)... he has 10+ makes in that area, one miss is bound to come at some point.

In game 5 he literally hit the go ahead shot that would have been the game winner (baseline shot), on the following trip Wade was 'fouled', 2 of the 3 referee's called it play on (no whistle), but the referee at that halfcourt mark made the call... go figure how much that changed the series, and for you, Dirk's clutch play.

Again, for the 2006 finals and 2007 1st round being Dirk's '**** ups', those are very good for being your worst series'. Especially since from 2008-2011 he was a near perfect performer, with great runs from 2001-2004.

His 2 best playoff runs are better than any Malone/Barkley run, and KG perhaps has one better...

in fact, it would be THREE barring his '03 injury.

So the blame game for supposedly overlooking Dirk's 'shortcomings' is tiresome, especially when teams like the 2007 Mavericks realistically weren't supposed to be at that stage/record in the first place.

[DMAVS41]

1) Maybe it's because I am new, but I haven't seen a 07 Dirk thread. And it's not brought up any near as much as 11 Bron, that literally us brought up everyday. It's mostly by trolls tho, so I digress.

2) It seems you think that I'm picking on Dirk exclusively. I think all underperformance are "inexcusable" if a player isn't injured and his team shoes up. 2011 Bron, 2007 Dirk, 2010 Kobe, B2B 8 point Finals Bird, Tragic Bronson, etc. are all inexcusable because these players had no reason to not play up to their standard and they didn't.

3) I don't excuse Lebron's shortcomings. 07 I give him a slight pass because the Cavs overachieved and he was only 22. But 2011 I definitely don't excuse and it's the main reason he isn't higher on my GOAT list. He's top 10 because of his accomplishments outside of that one series. If 2011 didn't happen I'd probably have him above Kobe/Bird, but it hurts his legacy. Lebron is also a great elimination game player (I think he has the highest PPG in them), but is still labeled a choker.

In no way am I holding Dirk back on my ATG list because of 2 series, but I think they get overlooked a little too often. I still have him top 25 and arguably 3rd GOAT PF.

Okay....

And Dirk's ranking has that all built in as well. That is my point. Nobody puts Dirk top 10 because of certain play in specific moments, games, and series.

Like I said... Just check the above post by Lion... It's all been said and gone over.

[Bankaii]

Kobe and Bird have had equally worse and a worse volume of bad series' than LeBron :oldlol:

Same for the people you have ahead of Dirk if he's top 25, Karl Malone, Barkley, Robinson, Moses, etc etc etc...

Dirk's good to bad playoff ratio is pretty damn fantastic.
I think you may have misinterpreted.

I don't rank players based on bad performances. I have Lebron/Kobe/Bird all on the same level. And when comparing their entire careers so far they are all about equal. But 2011 HURTS Lebron's legacy causing him to be below them. If he wins a ring this if have no problem putting him above Duncan, maybe even over Wilt in my top 5.

Same goes for Dirk. I don't rank him below some of the guys you listed because had a couple bad series. It's because his career/talent ALONG with his bad performances isn't as great to me as some others.

My whole point of listing his bad performances is that they get overlooked and he is looked as a clutch god when other players whom have choked equally or even less are labeled chokers.

[Bankaii]

Okay....

And Dirk's ranking has that all built in as well. That is my point. Nobody puts Dirk top 10 because of certain play in specific moments, games, and series.

Like I said... Just check the above post by Lion... It's all been said and gone over.
Yea I agree completely. I just didn't want it to seem I singled Dirk out and use his bad performances as a means of not having him as high, because that's false. I just felt that he flies below the criticism radar sometimes is all.

:cheers:

[DaOldLion]

As for 'DaOldLion', Dirk missed that GT FT, it's his only 'clutch' FT miss of his playoff career (not just saying that, statistically)... he has 10+ makes in that area, one miss is bound to come at some point.

In game 5 he literally hit the go ahead shot that would have been the game winner (baseline shot), on the following trip Wade was 'fouled', 2 of the 3 referee's called it play on (no whistle), but the referee at that halfcourt mark made the call... go figure how much that changed the series, and for you, Dirk's clutch play.

Again, for the 2006 finals and 2007 1st round being Dirk's '**** ups', those are very good for being your worst series'. Especially since from 2008-2011 he was a near perfect performer, with great runs from 2001-2004.

His 2 best playoff runs are better than any Malone/Barkley run, and KG perhaps has one better...

in fact, it would be THREE barring his '03 injury.

So the blame game for supposedly overlooking Dirk's 'shortcomings' is tiresome, especially when teams like the 2007 Mavericks realistically weren't supposed to be at that stage/record in the first place.


In game 5 he literally hit the go ahead shot that would have been the game winner (baseline shot), on the following trip Wade was 'fouled', 2 of the 3 referee's called it play on (no whistle), but the referee at that halfcourt mark made the call... go figure how much that changed the series, and for you, Dirk's clutch play.

you do realize that Dirk then fouled Wade which led to the gw free throws.. so he choked defensively.. and in that same game Dirk was the 3rd leading scorer.. when you get 35 points from your 2nd best player and 25 from the other on great efficiency you probably should win the game..


Again, for the 2006 finals and 2007 1st round being Dirk's '**** ups', those are very good for being your worst series'. Especially since from 2008-2011 he was a near perfect performer, with great runs from 2001-2004.

are you insane? losing as the MVP and the first seed to the 8th seed is not good for being your worse series, he is the only MVP to lose in the first round lmao that is not a "good" bad series, shot 39% in the finals in 06.. as a big..


Especially since from 2008-2011 he was a near perfect performer

again are you insane? he lost in the first round in 08, lost as the 2nd seed with HCA in the first round in 10, lost in the second round of 09.. there is nothing "near perfect" about losing in the first round 2/4 years including once with HCA..


with great runs from 2001-2004.

again.. he wasn't good against the Kings in 02 and lost in the 2nd round.. in 01 he was outplayed by his teammate in round 1, lost in the second round.. in 04 lost in the first round.. there isn't a "great run" for that entire time :facepalm


stop trying to revise history, it might work against some posters but not those who were actually watching the NBA consistently at the time

[ArbitraryWater]

Anyone who replies to Dirk being a great playoff performer from 2008-2011 with his teams exit stages is a troll :oldlol: Thanks for playing.

The amount of circumstances Dirk had to fight off in 2007 are pretty much as bad as it gets, Don Nelson on the opposing team, Avery badly outcoached in return, his father's sickness, Dirk's last month regular season injury, GSW and their top players missing CRAZY amount of games, healthy 50-55 win caliber, getting healthy come playoff time...

and STILL having a good series from game's 2-5... he overachieved in the first place.

So thats not your typical 1st loses v.s. 8th.

[Springsteen]

Dirk should be a top 15 player when all and said in done.

[DaOldLion]

Anyone who replies to Dirk being a great playoff performer from 2008-2011 with his teams exit stages is a troll :oldlol: Thanks for playing.

The amount of circumstances Dirk had to fight off in 2007 are pretty much as bad as it gets, Don Nelson on the opposing team, Avery badly outcoached in return, his father's sickness, Dirk's last month regular season injury, GSW and their top players missing CRAZY amount of games, healthy 50-55 win caliber, getting healthy come playoff time...

and STILL having a good series from game's 2-5... he overachieved in the first place.

So thats not your typical 1st loses v.s. 8th.

lmao you ducked everything in my post, of course you have nothing to say


Anyone who replies to Dirk being a great playoff performer from 2008-2011 with his teams exit stages is a troll :oldlol: Thanks for playing.

you claimed that form 08-11 he was a near perfect performer during his runs.. first and second round exits aren't "runs" and they sure as hell aren't "near perfect" when you're losing with HCA in the second round :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Lion...

The problem with your thinking on some of the above is that it doesn't account for circumstances.

Take the 07 series for Dirk. Yea, Dirk was really bad...there were some reasons why, but we can ignore them completely. He sucked...and his team got run off the court by a Warriors team that was really good, but hardly great.

Dirk was roughly a 20/11/2 51% TS player in that series iirc, but again...that is even a little misleading because his game 6 was terrible and really drove down his stats...People often forget how good Dirk was in game 5...especially at the end just to extend the series

But you rail on Dirk for that....but I never hear a Kobe fan talk about his 00 finals...

Like...Kobe was just objectively much worse in the 00 finals than Dirk was in 07. Again, there are reasons why Kobe was so bad, but lets ignore them because you ignore it all for Dirk.

Why aren't you talking about how disgustingly bad Kobe was in the 00 finals? I think he shot 40% TS and scored 17 a game...

Do you not see the double standard? So Kobe plays a flat out worse series...and yet he's a champ because his team was so good it didn't matter.

So, you are the one actually revising history.

It's just a simple fact that Kobe's 00 finals were objectively worse than Dirk's 07 Warriors series.

So what gives?

You can't talk about 1st or 2nd round losses and ignore how good a player actually was...that makes absolutely no sense.

You really think Dirk would be a better player if he had Tim Duncan on his team in 07 instead of Damp....and Carlisle was coaching? Of course not, but they win the Warriors series and win the title....Dirk wouldn't even have to play better than he did in the Warriors series and that team still cruises to the title.

So what does that mean? To me? Not much...just means circumstances play a huge role and not accounting for the differing circumstances is extremely problematic if you are actually trying to be fair.

[DMAVS41]

lmao you ducked everything in my post, of course you have nothing to say



you claimed that form 08-11 he was a near perfect performer during his runs.. first and second round exits aren't "runs" and they sure as hell aren't "near perfect" when you're losing with HCA in the second round :facepalm

Yea...he was holding his team back those years;

Just a 27/9/3 62% TS over those 4 years player that doesn't turn the ball over much at all for his usage....that can make a large impact both on and off the ball.

Not like when he finally got a decent squad he and his team didn't rape the league and sweep the Western favorites.

Yea...just wasn't good enough those years

[KevinNYC]

Moses Malone is the most underrated player of all time.

Then probably the early guys. That forward on the Hawks who put up crazy numbers whose name slips my mind right now.

[ArbitraryWater]

Moses Malone is the most underrated player of all time.

Then probably the early guys. That forward on the Hawks who put up crazy numbers whose name slips my mind right now.

Pettit!

[DaOldLion]

Yea...he was holding his team back those years;

Just a 27/9/3 62% TS over those 4 years player that doesn't turn the ball over much at all for his usage....that can make a large impact both on and off the ball.

Not like when he finally got a decent squad he and his team didn't rape the league and sweep the Western favorites.

Yea...just wasn't good enough those years

i never said he was holding his team back :biggums:

don't make shit up please..

As i've been saying.. there is nothing "near perfect" (as the other poster claimed) about a 4 year span where you lost with HCA, and had 2 first round exits.. :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

i never said he was holding his team back :biggums:

don't make shit up please..

As i've been saying.. there is nothing "near perfect" (as the other poster claimed) about a 4 year span where you lost with HCA, and had 2 first round exits.. :confusedshrug:

Individually, Dirk only had great series', so yes, he was perfect those years. Doesn't mean you have to win the title ffs :oldlol: you dent motha****a

[StephHamann]

Official ISH Top 15 list:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron
Moses
Oscar
West
Dirk

[game3524]

Official ISH Top 15 list:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron
Moses
Oscar
West
Dirk


Duncan is so overrated on here.

[DaOldLion]

Lion...

The problem with your thinking on some of the above is that it doesn't account for circumstances.

Take the 07 series for Dirk. Yea, Dirk was really bad...there were some reasons why, but we can ignore them completely. He sucked...and his team got run off the court by a Warriors team that was really good, but hardly great.

Dirk was roughly a 20/11/2 51% TS player in that series iirc, but again...that is even a little misleading because his game 6 was terrible and really drove down his stats...People often forget how good Dirk was in game 5...especially at the end just to extend the series

But you rail on Dirk for that....but I never hear a Kobe fan talk about his 00 finals...

Like...Kobe was just objectively much worse in the 00 finals than Dirk was in 07. Again, there are reasons why Kobe was so bad, but lets ignore them because you ignore it all for Dirk.

Why aren't you talking about how disgustingly bad Kobe was in the 00 finals? I think he shot 40% TS and scored 17 a game...

Do you not see the double standard? So Kobe plays a flat out worse series...and yet he's a champ because his team was so good it didn't matter.

So, you are the one actually revising history.

It's just a simple fact that Kobe's 00 finals were objectively worse than Dirk's 07 Warriors series.

So what gives?

You can't talk about 1st or 2nd round losses and ignore how good a player actually was...that makes absolutely no sense.

You really think Dirk would be a better player if he had Tim Duncan on his team in 07 instead of Damp....and Carlisle was coaching? Of course not, but they win the Warriors series and win the title....Dirk wouldn't even have to play better than he did in the Warriors series and that team still cruises to the title.

So what does that mean? To me? Not much...just means circumstances play a huge role and not accounting for the differing circumstances is extremely problematic if you are actually trying to be fair.

man this post is full of so much bs..

Kobe's 00 finals is brought up all the time.. are you serious.. Dirk was the MVP of the entire league.. Kobe was towards the bottom end of top 10 players.. different expectations.. here you are completely ignoring the circumstances..

why are you comparing the performances of an MVP in his prime on a 67 win team to a 20 year old who wasn't even the best player on his team or in his prime? Makes no sense..

You act like Dirk hasn't won a series while shooting like shit.. you do realize he shot 35% for a series and won before too right?

Kobe's first round losses get brought up all the time and he still played great..so we should bring up Dirk's losses too.. in the past 5 years he's lost in the first round 4 times..

I'm not "railing on" Dirk for anything, i'm pointing out stuff that you guys would be absolutly roasting other players for yet here with Dirk it gets shoved under the rug..

[DaOldLion]

Individually, Dirk only had great series', so yes, he was perfect those years. Doesn't mean you have to win the title ffs :oldlol: you dent motha****a

in 2010 he lost in the second round with HCA and had games that series of 37% & 40% shooting while having games of 24 pts on 24 shots and 15 points on 14 shots..

that's perfect to you? :oldlol: just go away troll :rolleyes:

[game3524]

man this post is full of so much bs..

Kobe's 00 finals is brought up all the time.. are you serious.. Dirk was the MVP of the entire league.. Kobe was towards the bottom end of top 10 players.. different expectations.. here you are completely ignoring the circumstances..

why are you comparing the performances of an MVP in his prime on a 67 win team to a 20 year old who wasn't even the best player on his team or in his prime? Makes no sense..

You act like Dirk hasn't won a series while shooting like shit.. you do realize he shot 35% for a series and won before too right?

I'm not "railing on" Dirk for anything, i'm pointing out stuff that you guys would be absolutly roasting other players for yet here with Dirk it gets shoved under the rug..

He shot 41% in the 2011 NBA Finals and yet no one brings it up like they do with Kobe in 2010 finals when he shot 40%.

IMO, both played fine.....but I do hate the double standard around here with certain players. ISH favorites like Dirk always get a pass, but guys like Kobe, Lebron, even KD get shitted on when they have subpar performances.

[FKAri]

Official ISH Top 15 list:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron
Moses
Oscar
West
Dirk

How'd that nigguh slip in there? :lol

[DaOldLion]

He shot 41% in the 2011 NBA Finals and yet no one brings it up like they do with Kobe in 2010 finals when he shot 40%.

IMO, both played fine.....but I do hate the double standard around here with certain players. ISH favorites like Dirk always get a pass, but guys like Kobe, Lebron, even KD get shitted on when they have subpar performances.


Exactly the double standard is unreal

Kobe shoots 40.5% in 2010 and is labeled inefficient

Dirk shoots 41.6% in 2011..

career playoff FG%: Kobe = 45%, Dirk = 46%

and Kobe's plaayed in 80 more playoff games and takes more shots..

[ArbitraryWater]

in 2010 he lost in the second round with HCA and had games that series of 37% & 40% shooting while having games of 24 pts on 24 shots and 15 points on 14 shots..

that's perfect to you? :oldlol: just go away troll :rolleyes:

dude picking out SINGLE games now :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

man this post is full of so much bs..

Kobe's 00 finals is brought up all the time.. are you serious.. Dirk was the MVP of the entire league.. Kobe was towards the bottom end of top 10 players.. different expectations.. here you are completely ignoring the circumstances..

why are you comparing the performances of an MVP in his prime on a 67 win team to a 20 year old who wasn't even the best player on his team or in his prime? Makes no sense..

You act like Dirk hasn't won a series while shooting like shit.. you do realize he shot 35% for a series and won before too right?

Kobe's first round losses get brought up all the time and he still played great..so we should bring up Dirk's losses too.. in the past 5 years he's lost in the first round 4 times..

I'm not "railing on" Dirk for anything, i'm pointing out stuff that you guys would be absolutly roasting other players for yet here with Dirk it gets shoved under the rug..

What are you talking about different expectations? That wasn't my point at all.

I'm telling you that Kobe is a champion in 00...despite playing a series objectively worse than Dirk in 07. Funny...I've never seen a Kobe fan count his 00 ring as less. Interesting...so you are saying it shouldn't count as a full ring then...right? Because of expectations? Hmmmm....guess those 5 rings posts on repeat need to be altered. Right?

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

And you just straw man my argument...sadly, the usual from most on here. I never said Dirk couldn't win shooting poorly. Not once. Not sure where you got that.

I simply made a point about level of play....and you going on and on about losses from 08 through 10 is just stupid....because you aren't factoring in help. Like...do you really think it's just completely random that Dirk's best team, by far, since 06....and he's back in the finals? You really think Dirk just go way worse from 08 through 10?

How do Kobe fans still make these arguments? Just go look at Kobe from 05 through 07....misses playoffs, 2 first round losses....it's what happens to any player if they don't have quality help/coaching.

You can bring up whatever you want....it's just stupid and lazy.

Oh my god...Dirk lost in the 2nd round in 09...guess he just isn't that good. 34/12/4 66% TS just wasn't enough...he can't handle playoff play.

It's just so lazy and old hat at this point...talk about actual play if you are going to do this. Not going on and on about first or 2nd round losses like that means anything. You'd have a point if Dirk didn't have 11 straight 50 win seasons with a bunch of average players after 04...2 finals trips...and a title. You really arguing he just couldn't get it done if he had great teams? Jesus...go back to 2007

[DMAVS41]

in 2010 he lost in the second round with HCA and had games that series of 37% & 40% shooting while having games of 24 pts on 24 shots and 15 points on 14 shots..

that's perfect to you? :oldlol: just go away troll :rolleyes:

So we are going to nitpick a 27/8/3 64% TS series and act like we couldn't do that for every single player ever?

My god...in the past I'd go down the rabbit hole and post game after game of Kobe, but it's just old hat.

I'm not interested in arguing Kobe vs Dirk anyway....just wanted to give you a dose of reality.

[Fallen Angel]

Did Karl Malone just not exist at all?

[DMAVS41]

Exactly the double standard is unreal

Kobe shoots 40.5% in 2010 and is labeled inefficient

Dirk shoots 41.6% in 2011..

career playoff FG%: Kobe = 45%, Dirk = 46%

and Kobe's plaayed in 80 more playoff games and takes more shots..

Playoffs:

Dirk 25.4 points...57.8% TS...117 ortg

Kobe 25.6 points...54.1% TS....110 ortg

A 3.7% difference in scoring efficiency is not nothing. I won't sit here and say it's more than it is just to drive a point home, but stop posting fg% when the scoring efficiency has that big of a gap

[SexSymbol]

Exactly the double standard is unreal

Kobe shoots 40.5% in 2010 and is labeled inefficient

Dirk shoots 41.6% in 2011..

career playoff FG%: Kobe = 45%, Dirk = 46%

and Kobe's plaayed in 80 more playoff games and takes more shots..
truest post ever

[DMAVS41]

truest post ever

Dumbest post ever.

Doesn't bother with 3point% or ft%....or TS%

Like...don't be obviously biased.

And I'm not even arguing Dirk is better than Kobe or anything...just don't argue stupid points or illogical points. Just say you thought Kobe was better at playing basketball. And come up with some legit reasons....not reasons about Dirk losing to the Nuggets while probably playing his best series of his career. It' just so stupid.

[DMAVS41]

i never said he was holding his team back :biggums:

don't make shit up please..

As i've been saying.. there is nothing "near perfect" (as the other poster claimed) about a 4 year span where you lost with HCA, and had 2 first round exits.. :confusedshrug:

If he's not holding his team back....then why are you talking about losing in the first and 2nd rounds from 08-10?

Think about that logic for a couple minutes.

You are railing on a player for losing in the first and second rounds...then when pressed....say....oh, but they should have lost and Dirk didn't hold them back...

Okay...so what is your point again?

It's like your point in 05 about losing to the Suns. Like...Dirk was okay in that series, hardly perfect, but listing a 27/12/3 54% TS series like it should be a black mark on his career while losing to the 05 Suns....who just destroy the Mavs in help around their best player....just seems like a reach.

I guess I just don't see the 05 Mavs as a team that should have been elite. Like...when on earth has Terry/Old Finley/Josh Howard/Marquis Daniels/Stackhouse/Damp been a team that would be expected to make a lot of noise in the playoffs? Just not a team that makes a ton of sense....certainly not a team that you'd think would beat Nash/Amare/Marion playing in the beginning of the friendly perimeter era

Like I said...Dirk was okay in that series...thought his defense was pretty poor, but everyone kind of looked bad playing against the Suns defensively that year.

So you think that should be brought up...I mean...go take a look at Kobe's series in 10 against the Thunder. I mean...what is the point of even talking if you are going to rail on Dirk for losing in round 1 here?

Kobe - 24/4/4 51% TS 99 ortg....106 drtg

Dirk - 27/8/3 64% TS 129 ortg....106 drtg

I bring up the 00 finals and you say it's unfair...you then go on to say Dirk wasn't good in 02...so it's fair to criticize Dirk in 02, but not Kobe in 00? Why? Dirk was in his 4th year....just like Kobe was in his 4th year in 00. See why it gets annoying with your type? Dirk had a 25/12/3 51% TS series as the best player against a great 02 Kings team. A 02 Kings team that was better than the 00 Pacers....

Yet, your conclusion, is that it's fair to criticize Dirk for his play in that 02 series...but not Kobe...right?

I mean...did you even know that Dirk was only in year 4...and only play in his 2nd playoffs...in 02? Kobe was in his 4th playoffs in 00.

Again...if you can't see how absurd this is...I give up.

Like...do you really expect people that didn't live these games and watch these games to not call you out?

Just a simple fact...Kobe plays on a worse team...he's going home in round 1 based on his play.

So either at least try to be remotely fair....or just don't post at all. Please...it just gets tiresome.

[gin17]

I can't imagine how a good a team will be with Kobe and Dirk in it