So wait a minute... being goat is all about scoring and efficiency?

[3ball]

.
In that case, MJ's the goat, BY FAR:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 118 ORtg

LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 110 ORtg
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 115 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 108 ORtg


So if we're going by scoring and efficiency, MJ stands alone



But in reality, TWO-WAY play is imperative to be goat:


Scoring champs who were 1st Team All-Defense:

Jordan: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Bryant: 2006, 2007
West:.. 1970


MJ was also the only player ever to be scoring champ and DPOY in same season (1988).. AND he was mvp that season.

[jongib369]

Could you imagine them playing together though :lol

[riseagainst]

Curry will surpass MJ.

deal wit it.

:rockon:

[jongib369]

Wonder how many more shots Curry could take per game and maintain a respectable FG%. Walton should pull a Frank McGuire during a 10 game stretch for the lulz...They're 20-0 anyway :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 118 ORtg

LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 110 ORtg
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 115 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 108 ORtg


Curry will surpass MJ.

deal wit it.



Statistically impossible - look at the list above - the #2 thru #6 guys are between 32-36 points.

So you'd think the #1 guy would be at like, 37 or 38... But no - Jordan is at 43.3, and FAR ahead of the pack, with significantly better efficiency too!!

Clearly, MJ was in a different class.. And I didn't even mention defense.

[Nash]

Well Jordan is the goat, who the hell are you arguing with?

[J Shuttlesworth]

How does ORTG work exactly? It's just points per 100 possessions, right? Wouldn't MJ's ORTG be inflated from being such a ballhog, while Curry gets simlilar PPG on fewer shots, which allows teammates to get more touches/shots?

[ShawkFactory]

Statistically impossible - look at the list above - the #2 thru #6 guys are between 32-36 points.

So you'd think the #1 guy would be at like, 37 or 38... But no - Jordan is at 43.3, and FAR ahead of the pack, with significantly better efficiency too!!

Clearly, MJ was in a different class.. And I didn't even mention defense.
Seriously, do you have a word document with all this shit?

I swear I saw this response a couple months back.

[3ball]

How does ORTG work exactly? It's just points per 100 possessions, right?


ORtg equals points produced per 100 possessions... Divide by 100 to get points-per-possession.

MJ produced more points-per-possession - shot volume has nothing to do with the calculation.

However, Jordan DID have higher shot volume, while achieving the same efficiency - this shows that he DID MORE (higher volume) at the same efficiency (actually, he had higher efficiency, as shown in the OP).

[FKAri]

http://i.imgur.com/y9JpWKW.gif

:lol :lol

[3ball]

How does ORTG work exactly? It's just points per 100 possessions, right?



It's clear that Jordan DID MORE than Curry (higher volume), at the same efficiency (points-per-possession):


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg
CURRY..:. 32.6 pts.. 0.9 oreb.. 4.6 dreb.. 9.1 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 0.2 blk.. 24.8 fga.. 115 ORtg


If Kobe, Lebron, or Curry could shoot more at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't... So imagine Kobe, Curry or Lebron DOING MORE - that's MJ.


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 0.9 oreb.. 4.6 dreb.. 9.1 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 0.2 blk.. 24.8 fga.. 115 ORtg.. 59.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts


Considering the #2 thru #6 spots above averaged between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 player would be at 37 or 38... But instead, MJ was at 43.3, far above the pack.. He's ostensibly the goat

[3ball]

Seriously, do you have a word document with all this shit?


ish is my word document...

i keep various posts and master posts saved in other threads that are no longer viewed... :yaohappy:

[game3524]

Imagine the post we would be seeing from 3ball if this was 2013 and Lebron was having that insane stretch, or in 2007 with Kobe's 40-50 point barrage?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Wait, so MJ's career high in ORTG is 125, same as LeBron I think.

Curry's current ORTG = 128 :eek: :eek: :eek:

[3ball]

Imagine the post we would be seeing from 3ball if this was 2013 and Lebron was having that insane stretch, or in 2007 with Kobe's 40-50 point barrage?
Well, it would be easy to show MJ's superiority to Kobe's 40-50 point barrage because MJ had the SAME barrage, except his stats were better across the board.

Lebron's 2013 would be easy too because his team was so stacked and his stats were clearly not on MJ's level.

[3ball]

Wait, so MJ's career high in ORTG is 125



:whatever: ... MJ puts Curry and Lebron to shame


Career Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 114 ORtg
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 115 ORtg

[Hey Yo]

NBA.com ‏@NBAcom 3 minutes ago
Curry is shooting 72.0% (36-50 FG) on 2-pointers when he gets 3-6 dribbles

http://stats.nba.com/player/?cid=nbacomsocial_tw_sf16444475#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

[HurricaneKid]

.
In that case, MJ's the goat, BY FAR:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 118 ORtg

LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 110 ORtg
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 115 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 108 ORtg


So if we're going by scoring and efficiency, MJ stands alone



But in reality, TWO-WAY play is imperative to be goat:


Scoring champs who were 1st Team All-Defense:

Jordan: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Bryant: 2006, 2007
West:.. 1970


MJ was also the only player ever to be scoring champ and DPOY in same season (1988).. AND he was mvp that season.

Its like you are INTENTIONALLY obtuse. ORTG, DRTG, All Def, and Scoring Champs combine to say almost NOTHING about individual efficiency.

[3ball]

Its like you are INTENTIONALLY obtuse. ORTG, DRTG, All Def, and Scoring Champs combine to say almost NOTHING about individual efficiency.


It's like you're a dumbass... points per possession (ORtg) is the only unbiased efficiency measure and the favored efficiency measure among all the stat bots (i.e. zach lowe) that you worship..

[fpliii]

It's like you're a dumbass... points per possession (ORtg) is the only unbiased efficiency measure and the favored efficiency measure among all the stat bots (i.e. zach lowe) that you worship..
You do realize that there are two different measures, right?

Individual ORtg (and DRtg), which you cited, are derived from box score stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html).

Actual ORtg (and DRtg), which are actual points per 100 scored and allowed by a team while a player is on the floor (NOT available prior to 96-97, since there is no digitalized play-by-play data), seem to be what you're talking about.

Individual ORtg is another box score stat...like a PER, or Win Shares.

[3ball]

Actual ORtg (and DRtg), which are actual points per 100 scored and allowed by a team while a player is on the floor (NOT available prior to 96-97, since there is no digitalized play-by-play data), seem to be what you're talking about.


No, I'm talking about individual ORtg, which is points produced per 100 possessions.

Out of the guys I listed, no one produced more points per 100 possessions than MJ.
.

[fpliii]

No, I'm talking about individual ORtg, which is points produced per 100 possessions.

Out of the guys I listed, no one produced more points per 100 possessions (efficiency) than MJ.
You mentioned Lowe. When have you heard/read him state that it (box score based individual ORtg, and not team ORtg for individual players while on the floor) is his 'favored efficiency measure'?

Or others like him...when have you heard Nate Duncan utilize it? Those two, and professional gambler Bob Voulgaris, probably are the three guys today with the best feel for the league. All three watch nearly every game by every team, and have for years.

[3ball]

You mentioned Lowe. When have you heard/read him state that it (box score based individual ORtg, and not team ORtg for individual players while on the floor) is his 'favored efficiency measure'?

Or others like him...when have you heard Nate Duncan utilize it? Those two, and professional gambler Bob Voulgaris, probably are the three guys today with the best feel for the league. All three watch nearly every game by every team, and have for years.


They all prefer points-per-possession to true shooting or field goal percentage, which are also based on box scores.

Also, statistical measures that use regression (i.e. RAPM) can't be used for player comparison purposes because they result in more inaccurate player comparisons than accurate ones... i.e. Laettner being the best player in the league in 1997.

For every instance where you can say "oh look, RAPM says Shaq is better than Alonzo", there are 3 more comparisons that are ludicrous (i.e. horry > kobe)... We've been over this before - these kinds of stats have little use for player comparisons.

[fpliii]

EDIT: Never mind, not getting a rise out of me today. You've been corrected on those issues in the past before.

[3ball]

EDIT: Never mind, not getting a rise out of me today. You've been corrected on those issues in the past before.
:roll:

Haha, get ethered fool.. You don't know shit about the game... get back in your hole you bitch

[fpliii]

:roll:

Haha, get ethered fool.. You don't know shit about the game... get back in your hole you bitch
Fine moron. Here's my response I edited:

Points per possession is based on play by play (since it tells us how well offenses and defenses ACTUALLY PERFORMED with a guy on the floor), not box scores. Individual ORtg/DRtg are box score estimates. I linked the methodology directly above.

That aside, who instructed you to compare the RAPMs of players playing different roles to one another? Regression isn't going away...it's widely utilized in every field (and the specific methodology is a peer reviewed decades old mathematical process, as has been explained to you in detail countless times). RAPM based metrics are the best predictor of wins.

Using box scores in 2015...I'm done here. Just stopped by to correct you. Respectable analysts have no reason to utilize box score based stats as a crutch in this day in age.

Grow up. It *kills* you that analytics and intelligent decision making in general have become central to the league, and aren't going away.

[SwishSquared]

I would have to imagine Steph's gravity rating is at least equal to MJ's. Not to mention that his gravity more than likely pulls more defenders further away from the hoop, opening up more room for his teammates to operate.

Also, Steph's shooting at a better clip the farther out he's attempting (ie his WAY deep threes are falling at a better rate than say right behind the line). Small sample size, but a fun little tidbit.

Look, MJ's the GOAT, but Curry on offense is unreal right now. His expected PPP on open shots, especially from deep, is off the charts. The only thing you could do to make Steph more efficient is to start giving him the same whistles that James Harden gets.

[HurricaneKid]

It's like you're a dumbass... points per possession (ORtg) is the only unbiased efficiency measure and the favored efficiency measure among all the stat bots (i.e. zach lowe) that you worship..

I've been wrong all along. I thought we were arguing stats and it turns out you don't understand the first thing about statistics and were just arguing for your guy.

ORTG is a TEAM statistic. It is a simple rate of scoring when a player is on the floor. And that info is NOT EVEN AVAILABLE for the bulk of MJs career. The worse problem is that BJ Armstrong is then one of the best ORTG players in the league because of the rotation he played in.

You HAVE TO UNDERSTAND the stat you are quoting and what it represents. For you to bring up all defensive teams to support your efficiency claims is INSANE.

I mean you are stanning MJ. Its not hard to find stats showing him to be the most efficient player of the age.

[90sgoat]

Could you imagine them playing together though :lol

Curry would be great in a Steve Kerr role.

[3ball]

Fine moron. Here's my response I edited:


Haha, you can't stick to your guns - I already own you... As usual... Remember when you weren't aware that paint-camping was legal in previous eras and I had to interpret the rules for you???

Remember when you thought defenders had to "follow" their man out to the 3-point line?... :roll:

You basically were clueless about spacing or the illegal defense rules before you met me.. I even had to show you where to find dunk stats and on/off stats from the 80's.. I never even got a thank you... :facepalm





RAPM based metrics are the best predictor of wins.


But not for player comparisons...

And that's my point... I don't care about predicting wins - I'm not a sports gambler.. Instead, I care about comparing players, and RAPM can't be used for that.





Individual ORtg/DRtg are box score estimates.


So are true shooting and field goal percentage - all of these box score stats are superior for player comparison purposes than RAPM.

If a wing player averages 6 ppg less in the playoffs on worse efficiency (I'm thinking of Lebron vs. Jordan), he's a worse player almost every time.

Whereas if a player has lower RAPM, he could EASILY be the better player.





who instructed you to compare the RAPMs of players playing different roles to one another? RAPM based metrics are the best predictor of wins.


Regardless of role, regression models aren't useful for player comparison purposes:

Brevin Knight isn't better than Gary Payton or Rod Strickland... Laettner isn't better than Karl Malone... Horry isn't better than Duncan... Kukoc isn't better than Grant Hill or Barkley...

And on.... and on.... and on..... and on... and on....

For every instance where you can say "oh look, RAPM says Shaq is better than Alonzo", there are 3 more comparisons that are ludicrous (i.e. jaren jackson > pippen)..

We've been over this before - these kinds of stats have little use for player comparisons.. An astute analysis of box score stats is FAR better for player comparisons.





Respectable analysts have no reason to utilize box score based stats as a crutch in this day in age.


There are no respectable analysts in the game..

All the "analysts" rely on RAPM as a crutch because they don't have an experienced eye test - they've had to teach themselves the game without actually ever playing, which is laughable.
.

[3ball]

Look, MJ's the GOAT, but Curry on offense is unreal right now.



MJ has better stretches than Curry ACROSS THE BOARD:


Jordan 1991 (20 games) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/#443-462-sum:pgl_basic): 32.5 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 5.8 apg.. 2.7 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 56.6 fg.. 131 ortg
Curry. 2016 (20 games): 32.0 ppg.. 5.1 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 0.2 bpg.. 52.4 fg.. 128 ortg


Jordan 1988 (19 games) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1988/#209-227-sum:pgl_basic): 35.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg.. 6.7 apg.. 3.8 spg.. 1.9 bpg.. 55.8 fg.. 128 ortg
Curry. 2016 (20 games): 32.0 ppg.. 5.1 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 0.2 bpg.. 52.4 fg.. 128 ortg


http://i.imgur.com/UAWFREj.gif

[fpliii]

paint-camping was legal in previous eras
LOL

So are true shooting and field goal percentage - and these box score stats are superior for player comparison purposes than RAPM.
LOL

Regardless of role, regression models aren't useful for player comparison purposes
LOL

An astute analysis of box score stats is FAR better for player comparisons.
LOL

I have to thank you, got a great laugh out of me. Peace out.

(Word of advice...don't bother responding with the same copy and paste job. If you have any cheerleaders they might enjoy it, though, so go for it.)

[3ball]

Also, Steph's shooting at a better clip the farther out he's attempting (ie his WAY deep threes are falling at a better rate than say right behind the line). Small sample size, but a fun little tidbit.


And indeed - for his career his long two percentage is about the same as his 3-point percentage.

So without the 3-point line, we can reduce Curry's ppg by 5-6 ppg, with little or no offset from higher efficiency two's

[3ball]

LOL

LOL


Rule 2b of Illegal Defense Guidelines:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


For anyone that can read, that's legal paint-camping... But keep denying the obvious - your credibility is already shot... Now like I said before, get back in your hole.

[LoneyROY7]

I woke this morning and thought, "Damn, Curry really is better than Michael Jordan."

Then I had some breakfast.

[SwishSquared]

MJ has better stretches than Curry ACROSS THE BOARD:


Jordan 1991 (20 games) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/#443-462-sum:pgl_basic): 32.5 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 5.8 apg.. 2.7 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 56.6 fg.. 131 ortg
Curry. 2016 (20 games): 32.0 ppg.. 5.1 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 0.2 bpg.. 52.4 fg.. 128 ortg


Jordan 1988 (19 games) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1988/#209-227-sum:pgl_basic): 35.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg.. 6.7 apg.. 3.8 spg.. 1.9 bpg.. 55.8 fg.. 128 ortg
Curry. 2016 (20 games): 32.0 ppg.. 5.1 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 0.2 bpg.. 52.4 fg.. 128 ortg


http://i.imgur.com/UAWFREj.gifYeah.... my post was about spacing the floor via 3 point shooting. Those two 20-game stretches in your links feature very low volume of 3PA (great stretch of play though!). Curry's floor gravity could be the best in the history of the game.

55% of Curry's attempts are from 3, according to player tracking. He's taking 11/game and hitting them at a 45% rate. The expected PPP for the average Curry three point attempt is 1.35. It's 1.455 if he takes 0 dribbles and jumps to 1.614 off 1 dribble (these two types of shots combine to make up 33% of his total shot attempts). And he's obviously doing that damage behind the arc, creating more space for his teammates than anybody else in the history of the game.

Like I said, MJ's the GOAT, but Curry is also unreal on offense right now. And as I said earlier, his shooting % is better the further out he is.

[raprap]

Curry the Goat. Deal. With. It.

[SwishSquared]

And indeed - for his career his long two percentage is about the same as his 3-point percentage.

So without the 3-point line, we can reduce Curry's ppg by 5-6 ppg, with little or no offset from higher efficiency two'sWe're not discussing his career- we're talking about this 20 game stretch. He's shooting 3s at unprecedented volume and efficiency.

Also, it's OK to reduce his PPG by close to 20% because now the 3 point line ceases to exist in your scenario? :oldlol: Should 2 point shots count as 1 now? Taking away the 3 point line and cutting down his production is absurd.

Anyway, since we're talking about this year, he's shooting long 2s better than 3s (in terms of %). However, including this season, 3 of his past 4 seasons have shown him to shoot better from 3 than long two. But taking away the most valuable shot in the sport (other than for an elite FT shooter, which Curry is anyways) is numb. It's literally setting the sport back decades. PPP is the best predictor of a successful scoring opportunity and Curry's estimated PPP is GOAT level.

But taking away the 3 point shot for the GOAT shooter Curry and adjusting his #s down is akin to saying we'll take out MJ's isolation plays and lop off 20% of his PPG.

[Smoke117]

Kareem >>>>>>> Curry >>>>>>>> MJ

[HenryGarfunkle]

:roll:

Haha, get ethered fool.. You don't know shit about the game... get back in your hole you bitch
:kobe:

[aj1987]

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

I have to thank you, got a great laugh out of me. Peace out.

(Word of advice...don't bother responding with the same copy and paste job. If you have any cheerleaders they might enjoy it, though, so go for it.)
Perfect response to a delusional retard like 3ball. The guy legit needs mental help.

[TomBrady]

fpliii wins. Great showing.

3ball is just another unathletic fan who needs to live vicariously through his favorite player. It's sad.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well, it would be easy to show MJ's superiority to Kobe's 40-50 point barrage because MJ had the SAME barrage, except his stats were better across the board.

Lebron's 2013 would be easy too because his team was so stacked and his stats were clearly not on MJ's level.

Let's compare shall we

2013 Heat
Wade: All-NBA 3rd Team, 10th in MVP voting

1996 Bulls
Pippen: All-NBA 1st Team, All-Defensive 1st Team, 5th in MVP voting, 2nd in DPOY voting
Rodman: Led the league in rebounds, All-Defensive 1st Team, 15th in MVP voting, 7th in DPOY voting
Kukoc: 6th man of the year
Jackson: Coach of the year

[diamenz]

3ball mad that curry excels at jordan's only weak point.

[3ball]

paint-camping was legal in previous eras (bitch)




Only because there was no spacing


Don't think I didn't catch this bitch - you deleted this post bitch

No need to delete it bitch - you already agreed there was legal paint-camping in previous eras bitch:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875222&postcount=35

[Quickening]

This thread convinced me Curry is better offensively than peak MJ

[Jasi]

:oldlol:

[Jasi]

Statistically impossible - look at the list above - the #2 thru #6 guys are between 32-36 points.

So you'd think the #1 guy would be at like, 37 or 38... But no - Jordan is at 43.3, and FAR ahead of the pack, with significantly better efficiency too!!

Clearly, MJ was in a different class.. And I didn't even mention defense.

So what you are saying here is that when there is a ranking where the top performance is by far better than the rest, then it is "statistically impossible" to improve it?
:lol

Lucky that Mike Powell didn't know that when he beat Bob Beamon's long jump world record.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Statistically impossible - look at the list above - the #2 thru #6 guys are between 32-36 points.

So you'd think the #1 guy would be at like, 37 or 38... But no - Jordan is at 43.3, and FAR ahead of the pack, with significantly better efficiency too!!

Clearly, MJ was in a different class.. And I didn't even mention defense.


Yes.

Because Curry last year was the same curry, post nash training this year.

Over the 20 games so far, Curry has been the BEST scorer in nba history.

probably having the absolute GOAT regular season too. Jordan, Shaq, Lebron, and Wilt are the only ones who have an arguement if he keeps this up.

that aint cuza the scoring.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

This thread convinced me Curry is better offensively than peak MJ

who the hell thinks that, if curry doesent sustain this, that he isnt the GOAT offensively (at least so far)

[SyRyanYang]

Although you methodology is a bit unorthodox but I get what you are trying to say and I wholehearted agree that Curry is going to be better than MJ offensively. (if he continues his current level of play)

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Haha, you can't stick to your guns - I already own you... As usual... Remember when you weren't aware that paint-camping was legal in previous eras and I had to interpret the rules for you???

Remember when you thought defenders had to "follow" their man out to the 3-point line?... :roll:

You basically were clueless about spacing or the illegal defense rules before you met me.. I even had to show you where to find dunk stats and on/off stats from the 80's.. I never even got a thank you... :facepalm



But not for player comparisons...

And that's my point... I don't care about predicting wins - I'm not a sports gambler.. Instead, I care about comparing players, and RAPM can't be used for that.



So are true shooting and field goal percentage - all of these box score stats are superior for player comparison purposes than RAPM.

If a wing player averages 6 ppg less in the playoffs on worse efficiency (I'm thinking of Lebron vs. Jordan), he's a worse player almost every time.

Whereas if a player has lower RAPM, he could EASILY be the better player.



Regardless of role, regression models aren't useful for player comparison purposes:

Brevin Knight isn't better than Gary Payton or Rod Strickland... Laettner isn't better than Karl Malone... Horry isn't better than Duncan... Kukoc isn't better than Grant Hill or Barkley...

And on.... and on.... and on..... and on... and on....

For every instance where you can say "oh look, RAPM says Shaq is better than Alonzo", there are 3 more comparisons that are ludicrous (i.e. jaren jackson > pippen)..

We've been over this before - these kinds of stats have little use for player comparisons.. An astute analysis of box score stats is FAR better for player comparisons.



There are no respectable analysts in the game..

All the "analysts" rely on RAPM as a crutch because they don't have an experienced eye test - they've had to teach themselves the game without actually ever playing, which is laughable.
.

see, I dont know him too well personally, but here's the problem, you challanged Fplii.

him disagreeing, when talking about advanced stat comprehension, basically means you are wrong.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Don't think I didn't catch this bitch - you deleted this post bitch

No need to delete it bitch - you already agreed there was legal paint-camping in previous eras bitch:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875222&postcount=35

are u dumb? he was trolling you dumbass

[Proctor]

Look, another thread where a bunch of dumb-dumbs have a ****-battle and post their different brands of USELESS statistics. How exciting. :hammerhead:

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Look, another thread where a bunch of dumb-dumbs have a ****-battle and post their different brands of USELESS statistics. How exciting. :hammerhead:

oh look

a dumbass that doesent know any better

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Well that backfired quickly

[Proctor]

oh look

a dumbass that doesent know any better
Kobe >> Jordan and LeBron.

Kobe is UNDEFEATED when his team outscores the opponent.

You all are a bunch of goofs.

[3ball]

are u dumb? he was trolling you dumbass
ha - you didn't read the thread and are just blindly defending him, which demonstrates my ownage of that stat bot, and you for that matter..

I've taught that fool so much about the game in the last year.

you idiots try to teach yourselves the game without ever actually playing, which is laughable.

maybe i should go out and teach myself about surgery, baseball, or golf or something - i'm sure there are books on it at the barnes and noble.. what a ****ing joke

[3ball]

him disagreeing, when talking about advanced stat comprehension, basically means you are wrong.


Come see the thread I'm about to make... Any stat bot that enters it will get shredded to pieces

[ShawkFactory]

Come see the thread I'm about to make... Any stat bot that enters it will get shredded to pieces
No

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

ha - you didn't read the thread and are just blindly defending him, which demonstrates my ownage of that stat bot, and you for that matter..

I've taught that fool so much about the game in the last year.

you idiots try to teach yourselves the game without ever actually playing, which is laughable.

maybe i should go out and teach myself about surgery, baseball, or golf or something - i'm sure there are books on it at the barnes and noble.. what a ****ing joke

The premise of the thread was you misusing stats.

I read the thread lol. what you said made absolutely no sense. you compared PER or something to TS%.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

3ball went home to to papa john

[HurricaneKid]

Come see the thread I'm about to make... Any stat bot that enters it will get shredded to pieces

The fact that you have so little clue about what the various stats are even SAYING really damages your claims.

The idea that you are a "teacher" or have contributed to this community in any way is a joke.

The only thing you have taught is how to find the ignore feature.

[Proctor]

The fact that you have so little clue about what the various stats are even SAYING really damages your claims.

The idea that you are a "teacher" or have contributed to this community in any way is a joke.

The only thing you have taught is how to find the ignore feature.
With that said, this thread can be closed now. Goodnight all.

[3ball]

No


http://www.desicomments.com/dc/24/57624/57624.gif

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

http://www.desicomments.com/dc/24/57624/57624.gif


gifs when your arguements have been destroyed

gg

[3ball]

gifs when your arguements have been destroyed

gg

There's nothing to "destroy" because it's all fact - MJ scored far more on better efficiency:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 118 ORtg

LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 110 ORtg
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 115 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 108 ORtg


MJ scored 20% more than the 2nd place guy, on better efficiency - his scoring and efficiency stands alone

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

There's nothing to "destroy" because it's all fact - MJ scored far more on better efficiency:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 118 ORtg

LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 114 ORtg
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 110 ORtg
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 115 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 108 ORtg



MJ scored 20% more than the 2nd place guy, on better efficiency - his scoring and efficiency stands alone


because we are ALL talking about curry last year.

gg

Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):




1998 Bulls: 3.74
1997 Bulls: 3.45
1996 Bulls: 3.67
1993 Bulls: 3.56
1992 Bulls: 3.40
1991 Bulls: 3.54
1990 Bulls: 3.65
1989 Bulls: 3.59
1988 Bulls: 3.65
1987 Bulls: 3.67
1985 Bulls: 4.09
____________________
1984 Bulls: 3.91
1983 Bulls: 4.18
1982 Bulls: 3.98
1981 Bulls: 4.28
1980 Bulls: 3.89
1979 Bulls: 3.88
1978 Bulls: 3.93
1977 Bulls: 4.12
1976 Bulls: 4.82
1975 Bulls: 4.45

2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2016 GSW:.. 99.5/29.1 = 3.36
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Unlike Jordan, Curry ran EQUAL opportunity offenses where people ASSISTED each other alot.

Otoh, Currylol was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his teams, as the data above shows.

No wonder Currylol role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake.
compared to all of these teams, unbiasedly selected, the bulls, in more than a DECADE, played a MUCH MORE selfish basketball style than the Warriors

Curry is running and EQUAL opportunity blah blah blah

lol hadta do it

(And btw, yes, this is supposed to be ironic lol)

[Pointguard]

I would have to imagine Steph's gravity rating is at least equal to MJ's. Not to mention that his gravity more than likely pulls more defenders further away from the hoop, opening up more room for his teammates to operate.

Also, Steph's shooting at a better clip the farther out he's attempting (ie his WAY deep threes are falling at a better rate than say right behind the line). Small sample size, but a fun little tidbit.

Look, MJ's the GOAT, but Curry on offense is unreal right now. His expected PPP on open shots, especially from deep, is off the charts. The only thing you could do to make Steph more efficient is to start giving him the same whistles that James Harden gets.
I always found it odd that this term "gravity" is totally used wrong. I used to use the term to describe Shaq in the late 90's but its all jacked up now. Jordan had more players around him and shadowing him than any jump shooter ever. There was way more of a shift toward a penetrator or a post player than a jump shooter. Its like now they use it to mean energy away from the basket - the center of basketball universe. Its totally backwards and shows a true lack of knowing the scientific meaning.

[Jasi]

I always found it odd that this term "gravity" is totally used wrong. I used to use the term to describe Shaq in the late 90's but its all jacked up now. Jordan had more players around him and shadowing him than any jump shooter ever. There was way more of a shift toward a penetrator or a post player than a jump shooter. Its like now they use it to mean energy away from the basket - the center of basketball universe. Its totally backwards and shows a true lack of knowing the scientific meaning.

I disagree.
A player's gravity means the gravity that said player exerts towards himself.

The fact that it's towards or away from the basket does not have anything to do with the use of the word being correct.