Lebron is doing to Love what he did to Wade. Pure Filth

[winwin]

that :facepalm play by Love

he was going to make a play, but hesitated
Lebrick raising his hand asking for the ball and STANDING still covered by the defender and not TRYING to free himself,
not one step

[stalkerforlife]

Bran ball freezes teammates out.

Then when Bran's little nuts shrivel up like a phucking old grape when the game is on the line, he passes to them and expects them to have a rhythm and make shots.

2/6 with the most stacked teams in NBA history.

[LAZERUSS]

Bran ball freezes teammates out.

Then when Bran's little nuts shrivel up like a phucking old grape when the game is on the line, he passes to them and expects them to have a rhythm and make shots.

2/6 with the most stacked teams in NBA history.

Yeah...how in the hell did he not win a ring last season, when he had JR, Delli, and Shumpert as his three best teammates?

Stacked beyond belief.

[GrapeApe]

Bran ball freezes teammates out.

Then when Bran's little nuts shrivel up like a phucking old grape when the game is on the line, he passes to them and expects them to have a rhythm and make shots.

2/6 with the most stacked teams in NBA history.

He's had some great teams, but not last year in the finals, and a team that starts Joel Anthony, Mike Bibby's corpse, and has very little bench production is far from stacked.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Yeah...how in the hell did he not win a ring last season, when he had JR, Delli, and Shumpert as his three best teammates?

Stacked beyond belief.

get back in the time machine.
ILt fan

[stalkerforlife]

Yeah...how in the hell did he not win a ring last season, when he had JR, Delli, and Shumpert as his three best teammates?

Stacked beyond belief.

1. He didn't have to do ANY REAL WORK throughout the entire east playoffs.

2. He was the FRESHEST player on the PLANET due to that.

3. He still sucked in the east playoffs.

4. He had a top 5 PG and a top 5 PF.

[LAZERUSS]

1. He didn't have to do ANY REAL WORK throughout the entire east playoffs.

2. He was the FRESHEST player on the PLANET due to that.

3. He still sucked in the east playoffs.

4. He had a top 5 PG and a top 5 PF.

And please give us their contributions in the Finals...

[stalkerforlife]

And please give us their contributions in the Finals...

Had them all season as he rested.

[LAZERUSS]

Had them all season as he rested.

And what was their record in those games that Lebron rested?

I'll help you out...

3-10 without him, and 50-19 with him.

Yep...what a ton of help he had with that "stacked" roster.

[MP.Trey]

Is he adding two rings to his collection? Cause that's the main thing I remember him doing to Wade.

[DJ Leon Smith]

And please give us their contributions in the Finals...

Was it the #1 ppg dropoff from regular season to playoffs in NBA history?

[oh the horror]

Is he adding two rings to his collection? Cause that's the main thing I remember him doing to Wade.




Could have added three if he didn't completely shit the bed in their first trip to the finals together.


And don't get it twisted. Bron doesn't win those rings without Wade and Bosh. Period.

[ArbitraryWater]

Could have added three if he didn't completely shit the bed in their first trip to the finals together.


And don't get it twisted. Bron doesn't win those rings without Wade and Bosh. Period.

Nobody was even talking about that... thats one of the broadest statements one could make. "durr without him yo" of course, we haven't adressed replacement level.

And then "Period", spoken like an emotionally torn teenage girl? :biggums:

What is it with LeBron that evokes these irrational child like Kobe ******ger reactions out of you :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

Wasn't it like a week ago that Kobe trolls were saying Love was the MVP of the Cavs?

My how the agendas change

[Straight_Ballin]

Yeah...how in the hell did he not win a ring last season, when he had JR, Delli, and Shumpert as his three best teammates?

Stacked beyond belief.

And what will your excuse be when the Cavs are all healthy in this years finals and they lose? Are you going to blame his teammates contribution or are you going to realize that the reason why their contribution in the finals is what it is because they are playing with someone that freezes them out because of mental instability when it's all on the line. What Wade and Bosh did to get those 2 rings is amazing in that they were able to accomplish it WHILE GETTING FROZEN out by Lebron's antics. Those guys would have had a much easier time playing with someone that didn't hinder their style of play, and that is exactly what lebron does to his teammates. Hinders them. Why else would such a "great player" only be 2/6 on such stacked teams? It's because his style of play come crunch time doesn't allow for the talent on his team to flourish.

Jordan on the other hand is 6/6 because his style of play worked perfectly with his team because he didn't freeze them out and take them out of their comfort zone like Lebron style of play does.

[MP.Trey]

Could have added three if he didn't completely shit the bed in their first trip to the finals together.


And don't get it twisted. Bron doesn't win those rings without Wade and Bosh. Period.
No matter how you put it, back to back championships are impressive as hell. Whether you think they should have won more or less.

Let me ask you this though:

Does Shaq win any rings without Kobe? Or Wade?

Does Kobe win any rings without Shaq? Or Pau/Artest?

Does Bird win any rings without Parish/McHale/DJ?

Does Kareem win any rings without Magic/Worthy? Or Oscar?

Does Magic win without Kareem/Worthy?

Does Russell win without Cousy/Sam Jones, etc?



Fact is, you need a really good team and that team needs to be healthy to win multiple hampiosnhips. If you're going to knock LeBron for not winning without Wade/Bosh. You need to knock every other great player that won championships in existence.

[Straight_Ballin]

No matter how you put it, back to back to back championships done not once, but twice are impressive as hell. Who cares about the accolades of someone that only won a back to back after six appearances. It's pure shit when compared to a 3-peat repeat.

Fixed.

[stalkerforlife]

And what will your excuse be when the Cavs are all healthy in this years finals and they lose? Are you going to blame his teammates contribution or are you going to realize that the reason why their contribution in the finals is what it is because they are playing with someone that freezes them out because of mental instability when it's all on the line. What Wade and Bosh did to get those 2 rings is amazing in that they were able to accomplish it WHILE GETTING FROZEN out by Lebron's antics. Those guys would have had a much easier time playing with someone that didn't hinder their style of play, and that is exactly what lebron does to his teammates. Hinders them. Why else would such a "great player" only be 2/6 on such stacked teams? It's because his style of play come crunch time doesn't allow for the talent on his team to flourish.

Jordan on the other hand is 6/6 because his style of play worked perfectly with his team because he didn't freeze them out and take them out of their comfort zone like Lebron style of play does.

Great post.

[MP.Trey]

Fixed.
Nobody is comparing 2 championships to 6 but you. Anyone who can do basic math knows MJ has won more and more impressively thus far in their respective careers. No idea why you have to insecurely bring someone up in a conversation that has absolutely nothing to do with him.

Back to back championships are impressive as hell. 3peats are more impressive. That's why MJ doing it twice is very impressive but again has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.

[coin24]

Lazeruss definitely has a type. Bran/wilt. (The original and modern day stat padding loser) :lol

Both can't win without a stacked team that could win without them.. Both come up short where it matters, (wilt with women and bran with twig and berries):lol

[Andrei89]

Lazeruss definitely has a type. Bran/wilt. (The original and modern day stat padding loser) :lol

Both can't win without a stacked team that could win without them.. Both come up short where it matters, (wilt with women and bran with twig and berries):lol

Put Kobe on the teams Lebron had over the years and there is no doubt in my mind that he would go 1/6 at the most.

[HOoopCityJones]

Put Kobe on the teams Lebron had over the years and there is no doubt in my mind that he would go 1/6 at the most.

The Team with D Wade and Bosh or Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love? You sound dumb , Kobe has won with less.

[AirBonner]

Put Kobe on the teams Lebron had over the years and there is no doubt in my mind that he would go 1/6 at the most.
Agree. Lebron has always had scrub teams. Needs more help :facepalm :facepalm

[Blue&Orange]

It's a magical thing with Lebron, his teams are always perceived as great teams, cavs would steamroll the east, Heat was something NEVER seen, yet Lebron always need more help.

[Straight_Ballin]

Nobody is comparing 2 championships to 6 but you. Anyone who can do basic math knows MJ has won more and more impressively thus far in their respective careers. No idea why you have to insecurely bring someone up in a conversation that has absolutely nothing to do with him.

Back to back championships are impressive as hell. 3peats are more impressive. That's why MJ doing it twice is very impressive but again has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.

What I'm telling you is that 2 championships whether they are back to back or not is mediocre when you've had 6 total attempts (same # of attempts as MJ, hence bringing MJ into it is valid) I'm sorry if this fact makes people insecure that their modern day hero couldn't get enough done, and now he is irrelevant because everyone has looked to Curry. It's now all about Curry and his quest to match Jordan's success in the finals.

If you want to argue that it was acceptable for lebron to freeze out his teammates resulting in 2 championships for the heat instead of 4, then you will be on the losing end of that argument because most understand that if he did not freeze out his teammates, the heat would be 4/4 in finals when lebron played for them.

Just accept the fact that you have a player that had the tools to be 4/4 with the heat but couldn't pull it off because of his perspective on how his team should play relative to him. It's the wrong perspective, the wrong attitude, results in bad output from teammates putting them out of rhythm, and that's why he will never be GOAT and also why Wade has only 3 rings instead of 5.

[AirBonner]

It's a magical thing with Lebron, his teams are always perceived as great teams, cavs would steamroll the east, Heat was something NEVER seen, yet Lebron always need more help.
Yep he hinders his teammates skills. Turns every great player into average or below average because he needs the ball. He is going to fall off hard in the next couple years

[Dresta]

It's a magical thing with Lebron, his teams are always perceived as great teams, cavs would steamroll the east, Heat was something NEVER seen, yet Lebron always need more help.
Yeah, all i've been hearing is about how the Cavs are a finals 'lock-in' - as if getting there will be little more than a casual waltz through shitty teams. No he needs more help?

Same narrative, same excuses, every ****ing year :rolleyes: .

[MP.Trey]

What I'm telling you is that 2 championships whether they are back to back or not is mediocre when you've had 6 total attempts (same # of attempts as MJ, hence bringing MJ into it is valid) I'm sorry if this fact makes people insecure that their modern day hero couldn't get enough done, and now he is irrelevant because everyone has looked to Curry. It's now all about Curry and his quest to match Jordan's success in the finals.

If you want to argue that it was acceptable for lebron to freeze out his teammates resulting in 2 championships for the heat instead of 4, then you will be on the losing end of that argument because most understand that if he did not freeze out his teammates, the heat would be 4/4 in finals when lebron played for them.

Just accept the fact that you have a player that had the tools to be 4/4 with the heat but couldn't pull it off because of his perspective on how his team should play relative to him. It's the wrong perspective, the wrong attitude, results in bad output from teammates putting them out of rhythm, and that's why he will never be GOAT and also why Wade has only 3
rings instead of 5.
Curry will never match MJ. Kobe never came close. LeBon never came close. It's just a stupid comparison to try to make.

Real basketball fans appreciate great players. They don't try to compare them to players clearly on another level like Jordan. Sorry, MJ has nothing to do with LeBron, he's 10x the player LeBron will ever be so stop trying to act like not being as good as Jordan is a bad thing. Nobody's as good as Jordan.

Accept the fact that LeBron is a great player who has accomplished more by the age 30 than 96% of players in their entire career. Are there players better, who could do more than LeBron did in his situations, definitely, but not many.

[Straight_Ballin]

Curry will never match MJ. Kobe never came close. LeBon never came close. It's just a stupid comparison to try to make.

Real basketball fans appreciate great players. They don't try to compare them to players clearly on another level like Jordan. Sorry, MJ has nothing to do with LeBron, he's 10x the player LeBron will ever be so stop trying to act like not being as good as Jordan is a bad thing. Nobody's as good as Jordan.

Accept the fact that LeBron is a great player who has accomplished more by the age 30 than 96% of players in their entire career. Are there players better, who could do more than LeBron did in his situations, definitely, but not many.

Real basketball fans appreciate players that are gifted enough to become the next GOAT and do what is necessary with that gift to become the next GOAT.

Fair weather fans think there will never be another player to overtake MJ and don't want anyone to be the GOAT over MJ.

I've had a front row seat on the MJ dominance train since he came into the league. I saw the dominance first hand. And while my joy of watching the NBA during Jordan era shits all over any fans experience who has only seen Kobe or Lebron play.....that was 17 years ago. If the best the world has to offer us are players who are 10x worse than MJ, then that is just sad.

People should stop "accepting" and start wishing for more. How the hell do you expect a product to be better if you only accept what you are given? I'm paying for a product when I go to an NBA game. I expect to see the best, not see someone doing something that someone did better 17 years ago.

[MP.Trey]

Real basketball fans appreciate players that are gifted enough to become the next GOAT and do what is necessary with that gift to become the next GOAT.

Fair weather fans think there will never be another player to overtake MJ and don't want anyone to be the GOAT over MJ.

I've had a front row seat on the MJ dominance train since he came into the league. I saw the dominance first hand. And while my joy of watching the NBA during Jordan era shits all over any fans experience who has only seen Kobe or Lebron play.....that was 17 years ago. If the best the world has to offer us are players who are 10x worse than MJ, then that is just sad.

People should stop "accepting" and start wishing for more.
Wishing for more is fine. But why get so disappointed when a player doesn't meet YOUR expectations.

If you think Kobe, LeBron, Duncan or Curry have a shot at being GOAT and they ulrimately fail, who's fault is that? Them for not being who you thought they were, or you gor having too high of expectations? The latter, imo. I don't EXPECT things out of players. I watch and observe and judge according to what happens, not what I think should happen.

This kind of thinking really would help you harbour much less hate and pessimistic thinking if you just try it out.

[DaOldLion]

No matter how you put it, back to back championships are impressive as hell. Whether you think they should have won more or less.

Let me ask you this though:

Does Shaq win any rings without Kobe? Or Wade?

Does Kobe win any rings without Shaq? Or Pau/Artest?

Does Bird win any rings without Parish/McHale/DJ?

Does Kareem win any rings without Magic/Worthy? Or Oscar?

Does Magic win without Kareem/Worthy?

Does Russell win without Cousy/Sam Jones, etc?



Fact is, you need a really good team and that team needs to be healthy to win multiple hampiosnhips. If you're going to knock LeBron for not winning without Wade/Bosh. You need to knock every other great player that won championships in existence.



Does Shaq win any rings without Kobe? Or Wade?

uhm yes, he's won without Kobe, won without Wade


Does Kobe win any rings without Shaq? Or Pau/Artest?

yes, he's won rings without Shaq, Without Pau and Artest (and did you really place 2010 Artest with the rest of these guys? That's laughable)

[coin24]

Put Kobe on the teams Lebron had over the years and there is no doubt in my mind that he would go 1/6 at the most.


Kobe has won more with much less, how much of a blind di.ck slurper are you?:lol

It still amazes me how his idiot stans claim the back to back 60+ win cavs teams in 09/10 were scrubs:lol :facepalm lebaldo legit needs an all star roster to win

[DaOldLion]

Put Kobe on the teams Lebron had over the years and there is no doubt in my mind that he would go 1/6 at the most.

that's cool but here in reality we deal with what has actually happened; sorry to break that to you

[MP.Trey]

uhm yes, he's won without Kobe, won without Wade



yes, he's won rings without Shaq, Without Pau and Artest (and did you really place 2010 Artest with the rest of these guys? That's laughable)
You're missing my point. The point is a championship team won't win a championship without 2/3 of their best players 99% of the time.

Take Kobe or Shaq the 00-03 Lakers they don't win shit. Take Wade or Shaq off the 06 Heat they don't win shit. Take Gasol/Odom (not sure why I listed Artest, forgot about Odom) away from those 08-10 Lakers teams, they don't win shit. So saying LeBro wouldnt win shit without Bosh/Wade is the same thing and quite obvious in my eyes.

[DaOldLion]

You're missing my point. The point is a championship team won't win a championship without 2/3 of their best players 99% of the time.

and you're missing their point, most if not all of those guys proved that they could win rings with different rosters and that it wasn't a specific teammate who was their crutch..

while Lebron has failed now multiple times without Wade and has yet to prove he can get it done without him..

[DaOldLion]

Take Kobe or Shaq the 00-03 Lakers they don't win shit. Take Wade or Shaq off the 06 Heat they don't win shit. Take Gasol/Odom (not sure why I listed Artest, forgot about Odom) away from those 08-10 Lakers teams, they don't win shit. So saying LeBro wouldnt win shit without Bosh/Wade is the same thing and quite obvious in my eyes.

this isn't at all what they are saying

[GrapeApe]

You're missing my point. The point is a championship team won't win a championship without 2/3 of their best players 99% of the time.

Take Kobe or Shaq the 00-03 Lakers they don't win shit. Take Wade or Shaq off the 06 Heat they don't win shit. Take Gasol/Odom (not sure why I listed Artest, forgot about Odom) away from those 08-10 Lakers teams, they don't win shit. So saying LeBro wouldnt win shit without Bosh/Wade is the same thing and quite obvious in my eyes.

I'm not sure why this is so difficult to grasp. The whole "This player wouldn't win without that player(s), etc....) nonsense is insanely stupid. Even players who won with lesser supporting casts (in terms of individual talent) still got great production from their teammates collectively. Nobody has ever or will ever do it alone. I don't care how great a player is, he isn't winning a damn thing without great help from his team.

[jayfan]

IF this Cavs teams manages to go through the playoffs completely healthy - which is highly unlikely, if not impossible, since they have 4 of the most injury-prone players in NBA history - but IF they do, it may the be most stacked team in playoff history.

We over-use the no excuses cliche now, but it would seriously be absolutely no excuses.








.

[MP.Trey]

and you're missing their point, most if not all of those guys proved that they could win rings with different rosters and that it wasn't a specific teammate who was their crutch..

while Lebron has failed now multiple times without Wade and has yet to prove he can get it done without him..
Thats somewhat true but people like Bird/Magic we never really saw play with anything less than great teammates so how can we speculate how they'd do with Big Z and Mo or Delly, JR, Mozgov and TT? LeBron's a rare case as he keeps jumping teams from bad to good to average to great team but I mean he's had (imo) one championship caliber roster outside of the Heat era and they got injured to shreds last year in the playoffs.

If you want to hold the 09/10 Cavs failures against him, that's fine. But even counting those, that's only 2 championship caliber rosters he's had without winning and that's not enough to start the "HE CAN'T WIN WITHOUT WADE!" thing imo. Great players don't usually win without other great players beside them. Exceptions being people like Kobe, Hakeem, Rick Barry, umm.. hard to think of many others because that's just how rare it is.

Jordan couldn't win without Pippen, but that's because he never had a championship roster without him. Same with Bird/McHale. Magic/Kareem, etc. So how can you hold that against them? Same thing with LeBron imo. You're welcome to disagree if you think 07-10, 15 Cavs were better than I think they were in the playoffs.

But I digress, my whole point was to try to deflect hate from a great player. I shit on Kobe all the time and get called a hater but I'll never not admit he's an all time great and immensely
talented. That's what I don't get about LeBron haters, it's so personal to them that they have to try to tear down his character, and his basketball ability, which is obviously fantastic.

I wasn't coming in here planning to debate his place along side other top 10 all time greats. I just wanted to point out that LeBron has accomplished more in his short career tgan most could dream to in theirs and he is a great player. Top 10, top 30, wherever you rank him, he's great. And denying that means to me that you must have some deep rooted issues with yourself.

[GrapeApe]

uhm yes, he's won without Kobe, won without Wade



yes, he's won rings without Shaq, Without Pau and Artest (and did you really place 2010 Artest with the rest of these guys? That's laughable)

When did Shaq ever win without Kobe or Wade? When did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol? Do you mean without one or the other? If so, you're still saying that Shaq and Kobe needed an all-time great teammate to win. What all-time great teammate has Lebron ever had on the Cavs? He's certainly never had a teammate the caliber of prime Shaq, Kobe, Wade, or Gasol.

[Blue&Orange]

:sleeping

career averages
McHale 17.9 \ 7.3
Love 18.7\11.8

Bird had nothing but legendary teammates
Lebron had nothing but crap teammates

:roll:

The level of talent Lebron had is unparalleled in a 30 team league. Absolutely disgustingly lopsided in the heat, and all he had to show is a ring against the youngest team ever in the finals, and he needed the refs help, and other against the oldest team ever in the finals and he needed Ray Allen miracle shot.

[MP.Trey]

career averages
McHale 17.9 \ 7.3
Love 18.7\11.8

Bird had nothing but legendary teammates
Lebron had nothing but crap teammates

:roll:

The level of talent Lebron had is unparalleled in a 30 team league. Absolutely disgustingly lopsided in the heat, and all he had to show is a ring against the youngest team ever in the finals, and he needed the refs help, and other against the oldest team ever in the finals and he needed Ray Allen miracle shot.
When did LeBron ever play with Love for a full playoff series again?

[sd3035]

career averages
McHale 17.9 \ 7.3
Love 18.7\11.8

Bird had nothing but legendary teammates
Lebron had nothing but crap teammates

:roll:

The level of talent Lebron had is unparalleled in a 30 team league. Absolutely disgustingly lopsided in the heat, and all he had to show is a ring against the youngest team ever in the finals, and he needed the refs help, and other against the oldest team ever in the finals and he needed Ray Allen miracle shot.


:lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

[ShawkFactory]

When did LeBron ever play with Love for a full playoff series again?
It's funny when people say "Bran can't win with Love and Kyrie!". It's like...you ACTUALLY have to wait until next June to make that claim. If he loses then go for it.

[Blue&Orange]

When did LeBron ever play with Love for a full playoff series again?
So why are you RIGHT NOW and other **** like you crying he doesn't have help? Talking about Bird and Magic? Worried about the 13-6? Worried about for the FIRST TIME in his career he is playing on a decent conference?

[Straight_Ballin]

Wishing for more is fine. But why get so disappointed when a player doesn't meet YOUR expectations.

If you think Kobe, LeBron, Duncan or Curry have a shot at being GOAT and they ulrimately fail, who's fault is that? Them for not being who you thought they were, or you gor having too high of expectations? The latter, imo. I don't EXPECT things out of players. I watch and observe and judge according to what happens, not what I think should happen.

This kind of thinking really would help you harbour much less hate and pessimistic thinking if you just try it out.

I'm in agreement with you that all those players failed at being GOAT and that it is their fault. The problem with your point of view is that if there is no expectation to be met, then why try to achieve it?

One point of view is "well I'm here in the NBA getting paid, so why push myself to the level of something that is almost impossible to achieve" the other point of view is "I was gifted with these ability and I'm going to make the most of them to try and be the GOAT and I don't care what I have to sacrifice to get there". The 2nd mindset is the one that I agree with.

I'm not here to simply be entertained. I've already been entertained. I saw a career that hasn't been matched to date. The expectation has already been set. I'm here to witness the next GOAT because it is only fitting that in my lifetime that I witness a player like MJ rise to a level that is still GOAT for 17 years counting, only to see another player overtake him as GOAT. As a fan of the game, any other expectation by someone that witnessed Jordan is mediocre.

Once you've experienced eating at a 5 star restaurant, why would you prefer to eat at a 1 star restaurant?

[ShawkFactory]

I'm in agreement with you that all those players failed at being GOAT and that it is their fault. The problem with your point of view is that if there is no expectation to be met, then why try to achieve it?

One point of view is "well I'm here in the NBA getting paid, so why push myself to the level of something that is almost impossible to achieve" the other point of view is "I was gifted with these ability and I'm going to make the most of them to try and be the GOAT and I don't care what I have to sacrifice to get there". The 2nd mindset is the one that I agree with.

I'm not here to simply be entertained. I've already been entertained. I saw a career that hasn't been matched to date. The expectation has already been set. I'm here to witness the next GOAT because it is only fitting that in my lifetime that I witness a player like MJ rise to a level that is still GOAT for 17 years counting, only to see another player overtake him as GOAT. As a fan of the game, any other expectation by someone that witnessed Jordan is mediocre.
There are plenty of people who watched MJ that still enjoy the game.

[Straight_Ballin]

That's what I don't get about LeBron haters, it's so personal to them that they have to try to tear down his character, and his basketball ability, which is obviously fantastic.

It's fantastic in the sense that he possesses better basketball playing ability that say a college player, but there is nothing fantastic about the fact that you freeze your teammates out and cause them to not be as productive because your style of play doesn't enable them to do so. You don't see players like Dirk who won with much less than Lebron freeze their teammates out like Bron did in 2 of his 4 appearances in the finals with the heat. But yet Bron needs more help? It's the same excuses being made for this guy every single year.

[Straight_Ballin]

There are plenty of people who watched MJ that still enjoy the game.

A majority of them will tell you that the game isn't as enjoyable since MJ left. Me witnessing first hand the number of people around me that stopped watching basketball when Jordan left after 98 is actual first hand experience. It actually did happen despite what you want to believe. I lived it, I saw it happen. People removed themselves from watching AN ENTIRE SPORT because of one man's choice to leave the game for awhile. Let that sink in for a minute.

[Hey Yo]

And what will your excuse be when the Cavs are all healthy in this years finals and they lose? Are you going to blame his teammates contribution or are you going to realize that the reason why their contribution in the finals is what it is because they are playing with someone that freezes them out because of mental instability when it's all on the line. What Wade and Bosh did to get those 2 rings is amazing in that they were able to accomplish it WHILE GETTING FROZEN out by Lebron's antics. Those guys would have had a much easier time playing with someone that didn't hinder their style of play, and that is exactly what lebron does to his teammates. Hinders them. Why else would such a "great player" only be 2/6 on such stacked teams? It's because his style of play come crunch time doesn't allow for the talent on his team to flourish.

Jordan on the other hand is 6/6 because his style of play worked perfectly with his team because he didn't freeze them out and take them out of their comfort zone like Lebron style of play does.
But if James supposedly choked in 2011 and didn't show up, why wasn't Wade and Bosh able to win the title w/o James "freezing them out?"

Why were they able to play their games against Dallas, yet still not win?

Why was Miami able to win B2B titles when Wade declared it "LeBron's team now" before the 2012 season started?

[DaOldLion]

When did Shaq ever win without Kobe or Wade? When did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol? Do you mean without one or the other? If so, you're still saying that Shaq and Kobe needed an all-time great teammate to win. What all-time great teammate has Lebron ever had on the Cavs? He's certainly never had a teammate the caliber of prime Shaq, Kobe, Wade, or Gasol.

I already explained this

both Kobe and Shaq proved that they could win with 2 different sets of teams, and that neither needed a specific player to be their crutch

Kobe won without Shaq, Kobe won without Pau, Shaq won without Kobe, Shaq won without Wade

Lebron has only won with Wade and has yet to prove that he can do it without him

[ShawkFactory]

A majority of them will tell you that the game isn't as enjoyable since MJ left. Me witnessing first hand the number of people around me that stopped watching basketball when Jordan left after 98 is actual first hand experience. It actually did happen despite what you want to believe. I lived it, I saw it happen. People removed themselves from watching AN ENTIRE SPORT because of one man's choice to leave the game for awhile. Let that sink in for a minute.
Then those aren't true basketball fans. Plain and simple.

Stop acting as though the true fans don't enjoy it as much. The MJ stans don't enjoy it as much. Simple minded people who saw greatness and latched on to it.

People who actually enjoy the game can appreciate adaptations.

My grandmother hated the Rolling Stones and led Zeppelin because they weren't what she had grown up with.

[Hey Yo]

A majority of them will tell you that the game isn't as enjoyable since MJ left. Me witnessing first hand the number of people around me that stopped watching basketball when Jordan left after 98 is actual first hand experience. It actually did happen despite what you want to believe. I lived it, I saw it happen. People removed themselves from watching AN ENTIRE SPORT because of one man's choice to leave the game for awhile. Let that sink in for a minute.
:rolleyes:

Did they stop watching when he announced he was quitting right before the 93-94 season?

[Donkey4trading]

Let me get this straight..

Lebron played on 60+ win teams in 09/10, played with 2 all stars every year from 11-14 and is now playing with Kevin Love and all nba point guard Kyrie Irving.. and we are still hearing this "doesn't have enough help" shtick..

give me a break, do you know how many all time greats would kill to play with Wade/Bosh/Kyrie & Love for 6 straight years of their prime??

Why is is that this excuse is only made for Lebron.. I guess every other player has always played on perfect teams and its only Lebron who hasn't :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

[Straight_Ballin]

Then those aren't true basketball fans. Plain and simple.

Stop acting as though the true fans don't enjoy it as much. The MJ stans don't enjoy it as much. Simple minded people who saw greatness and latched on to it.

People who actually enjoy the game can appreciate adaptations.

My grandmother hated the Rolling Stones and led Zeppelin because they weren't what she had grown up with.

Yes, they were basketball fans. They paid money to go to the games and invested time watching the game just like everyone else. Again, why settle for a 1 star restaurant when you've already experienced a 5 star restaurant? Such is the difference between watching the greatest of all time play the game and watching players that are 10x the lesser player.

[Straight_Ballin]

:rolleyes:

Did they stop watching when he announced he was quitting right before the 93-94 season?

Yes, after Jordan left the first time they stopped watching and it was only until Jordan returned that they resumed watching. I though this was common knowledge. There's actual data to support that this actually happened. Anyone who was into basketball at the time knows this and it wasn't just residents of Chicago that did this.

[Donkey4trading]

:rolleyes:

Did they stop watching when he announced he was quitting right before the 93-94 season?


the 93 finals scored a 17.9 ratings share

the 94 finals scored a 12.0

[ShawkFactory]

Yes, they were basketball fans. They paid money to go to the games and invested time watching the game just like everyone else. Again, why settle for a 1 star restaurant when you've already experienced a 5 star restaurant? Such is the difference between watching the greatest of all time play the game and watching players that are 10x the lesser player.
Why do you hate it so much? Why are you on here talking about it so much if it's you settling? Aren't there better things out there for you than trolling on a message board with the basis being a player that retired 17 years ago?

10x the lesser players :facepalm. Such is the comment of someone who sees only what he wants. I don't blame you. Jordan was clearly dear to you. He would have been to me too. I probably wouldn't do what you do though. Seems like a massive waste of time...if the players now are 10x inferior as you claim.

[Hey Yo]

Yes, they were basketball fans. They paid money to go to the games and invested time watching the game just like everyone else. Again, why settle for a 1 star restaurant when you've already experienced a 5 star restaurant? Such is the difference between watching the greatest of all time play the game and watching players that are 10x the lesser player.
:roll:

by far the stupidest example / comparison I've ever seen on the subject on MJ

"why settle for drinking city water when you've had bottled water?

"why settle for slicing your own bread when you can buy it sliced?

[Hey Yo]

But if James supposedly choked in 2011 and didn't show up, why wasn't Wade and Bosh able to win the title w/o James "freezing them out?"

Why were they able to play their games against Dallas, yet still not win?

Why was Miami able to win B2B titles when Wade declared it "LeBron's team now" before the 2012 season started?
???

:confusedshrug:

[GrapeApe]

I already explained this

both Kobe and Shaq proved that they could win with 2 different sets of teams, and that neither needed a specific player to be their crutch

Kobe won without Shaq, Kobe won without Pau, Shaq won without Kobe, Shaq won without Wade/
Lebron has only won with Wade and has yet to prove that he can do it without him

And you know what all of the players in the bolded have in common? They're future HOFers. Your're criticizing Lebron for never winning with 2 sets of teams, yet ignoring that he's never had a future HOFer on 2 sets of teams the way Shaq and Kobe did. It's a flawed comparison. Shaq won his titles with HOF guards. Kobe won his titles with HOF big men. What HOFer (in their prime) has Lebron failed to win with on the Cavs?

[Hey Yo]

the 93 finals scored a 17.9 ratings share

the 94 finals scored a 12.0
Completely stopped watching the NBA is quite different than a decrease in Finals ratings.

[Straight_Ballin]

Why do you hate it so much? Why are you on here talking about it so much if it's you settling? Aren't there better things out there for you than trolling on a message board with the basis being a player that retired 17 years ago?

10x the lesser players :facepalm. Such is the comment of someone who sees only what he wants. I don't blame you. Jordan was clearly dear to you. He would have been to me too. I probably wouldn't do what you do though. Seems like a massive waste of time...if the players now are 10x inferior as you claim.

Who said anything about hate? It's an observation and a valid one. The game isn't as good since MJ left it. Plain and simple and the observation is shared by the masses of anyone who understands the game and witnessed GOAT. I can't even describe it to you how great it was being a basketball player and playing the game while the GOAT played at the same time. Use your imagination.

I'm not on here that much. Check my post count. In fact I'd probably have even less posts as would 3ball if we didn't have to constantly educate current era fans on the subject.


by far the stupidest example / comparison I've ever seen on the subject on MJ

"why settle for drinking city water when you've had bottled water?

"why settle for slicing your own bread when you can buy it sliced?

Pick any analogy you want. The point still stands that the game is less enjoyed by those who saw MJ play than when MJ was playing. Present day ball can be enjoyed, but no where near as much.

[DaOldLion]

And you know what all of the players in the bolded have in common? They're future HOFers. Your're criticizing Lebron for never winning with 2 sets of teams, yet ignoring that he's never had a future HOFer on 2 sets of teams the way Shaq and Kobe did. It's a flawed comparison. Shaq won his titles with HOF guards. Kobe won his titles with HOF big men. What HOFer (in their prime) has Lebron failed to win with on the Cavs?

So are Wade and Bosh, and a prime Shaq & Kobe never had 2 HOF players in their primes playing bedside them either

Kobe had to face the same thing after Shaq left, was that fair? Boo ****ing whooo, if you're an atg these are the type of expectations you have to live up to. Many people saw Wade as Lebron's crutch, Wade had won a ring and FMVP years before Lebron ever showed up.. Lebron even said that he needed Wade to "teach him how to win".. now the question is if he can win without that crutch..

and you are completely ignoring the fact that Lebron played with 2 HOFers in their primes while in his prime for 4 straight years..

If prime Kobe and Shaq had two HOFer's playing with them for all of their prime years & hand picking every teammate they had then nobody would be saying they didn't have enough help, so please cut the bullshit, most players would kill to play with the teams Lebron has played with for the past 6 years

[Straight_Ballin]

But if James supposedly choked in 2011 and didn't show up, why wasn't Wade and Bosh able to win the title w/o James "freezing them out?"

Why were they able to play their games against Dallas, yet still not win?

Why was Miami able to win B2B titles when Wade declared it "LeBron's team now" before the 2012 season started?

So you expect players to all of a sudden just change their style of play and get right into a rhythm when they've been playing a certain way all season long? That's not how basketball works at that level. Wade and Bosh had to modify their games drastically to coincide with lebrons style of play and that is why they went 2/4. If Lebron didn't freeze players out and made it easier on his teammates like MJ, the heat would have been 4/4. The first team to 4-peat since the Boston Celtics of the 60's and a FAILED opportunity because of Lebron ball. Let me guess... lebron needed MORE help in order to go 4/4.....:rolleyes: Apparently so when you lose your FMVP to role players....

[ShawkFactory]

Who said anything about hate? It's an observation and a valid one. The game isn't as good since MJ left it. Plain and simple and the observation is shared by the masses of anyone who understands the game and witnessed GOAT. I can't even describe it to you how great it was being a basketball player and playing the game while the GOAT played at the same time. Use your imagination.

I'm not on here that much. Check my post count. In fact I'd probably have even less posts as would 3ball if we didn't have to constantly educate current era fans on the subject.



Pick any analogy you want. The point still stands that the game is less enjoyed by those who saw MJ play than when MJ was playing. Present day ball can be enjoyed, but no where near as much.
You don't educate shit dude. You're nothing more than an MJ Stan/Lebron hater.

[Donkey4trading]

Completely stopped watching the NBA is quite different than a decrease in Finals ratings.

93 finals = 17.9

94 finals = 12.0

95 finals = 13.9

96 finals = 16.7

97 finals = 16.8

98 finals = 18.9

99 finals = 11.3

clearly millions upon millions of fans came and went with Jordan..

[ShawkFactory]

93 finals = 17.9

94 finals = 12.0

95 finals = 13.9

96 finals = 16.7

97 finals = 16.8

98 finals = 18.9

99 finals = 11.3

clearly millions upon millions of fans came and went with Jordan..
What were the ratings for 2000.

[Straight_Ballin]

You don't educate shit dude. You're nothing more than an MJ Stan/Lebron hater.

Says the guy that was all lebron this lebron that, lebron before he saw the light. :lol I thought this was already explained to you in the other thread?

[Donkey4trading]

What were the ratings for 2000.

11.6

the highest rated finals since Jordan left was in 01

[ShawkFactory]

11.6

the highest rated finals since Jordan left was in 01
What was that? No agenda or anything I'm actually curious

[Straight_Ballin]

What were the ratings for 2000.

Forget about the ratings. They are just a small piece of the evidence. We are not here to convince you of anything. I know what actually happened because I lived it so believe whatever you want. If you need to tell yourself that the game is enjoyed by those who watched MJ just as much now as it was back then so that you can sleep soundly at night, then by all means do so. Use whatever coping mechanism you can. Meanwhile the rest of us that know the facts will continue to live our lives based on acceptance of facts and living a life predicated on reality rather than fantasy. Like I said in the past, if some sqeaker teen wants to think Lebron is the greatest ever, then it's his own damn fault for living in a dream world.

[Hey Yo]

Pick any analogy you want. The point still stands that the game is less enjoyed by those who saw MJ play than when MJ was playing. Present day ball can be enjoyed, but no where near as much.
So basiclaly you're saying, MJ fans liked it better when he was playing, than when he wasn't?

shocking news...mind blown.

[Donkey4trading]

What was that? No agenda or anything I'm actually curious

that was the answer :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

the 2000 finals = 11.6 rating

[Straight_Ballin]

So basiclaly you're saying, MJ fans liked it better when he was playing, than when he wasn't?

shocking news...mind blown.

No, what I'm saying is that a MAJORITY of people from a GLOBAL standpoint who watched the game liked it better when MJ was playing than when he wasn't, regardless if they liked the bulls or not.

I was there in the stadium when MJ hit that shot over Ehlo. It pissed me off that my Cavs lost, but greatness is greatness, plain and simple.

[ShawkFactory]

Says the guy that was all lebron this lebron that, lebron before he saw the light. :lol I thought this was already explained to you in the other thread?
You clearly only see what you want :lol

I'm an fan of Lebron. Fan of Duncan too. Dirk? Yep, I'm a fan. Wade? You betcha. I liked Kobe for a while but his fans are so annoying that it made it more difficult. But I respect the hell out of him.

I love watching curry. Have for a long time.

Love watching the Spurs.

I especially love watching the Hawks, my team. Been to 4 games this year already.

The fact that you said what you just did proves my point. You don't ever say anything of merit. Piggy-backing off of 3ball and spewing random bullshit about Lebron? That's all you have.

I've always known MJ was the GOAT. And I've never said anything otherwise on here. If you care to prove that wrong go ahead. If not, we're done here. I'm looking for the Gators to make this a game.

[ShawkFactory]

that was the answer :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

the 2000 finals = 11.6 rating
No I meant 2001

[Straight_Ballin]

You clearly only see what you want :lol

I'm an fan of Lebron. Fan of Duncan too. Dirk? Yep, I'm a fan. Wade? You betcha. I liked Kobe for a while but his fans are so annoying that it made it more difficult. But I respect the hell out of him.

I love watching curry. Have for a long time.

Love watching the Spurs.

I especially love watching the Hawks, my team. Been to 4 games this year already.

The fact that you said what you just did proves my point. You don't ever say anything of merit. Piggy-backing off of 3ball and spewing random bullshit about Lebron? That's all you have.

I've always know MJ was the GOAT. And I've never said anything otherwise on here. If you care to prove that wrong go ahead. If not, we're done here. I'm looking for the Gators to make this a game.

Congrats on knowing that MJ is the GOAT I guess. Sad that this is now something that is expected to be a commendable opinion when it should be known to all as fact, but whatever.

The bolded part would lead me to believe that you are somewhat shook about the facts that surround Lebron's career. Feel free to call the facts "random bullshit" if you like but the fact is that Lebron is doing to Love what he did to Wade.

[Hey Yo]

So you expect players to all of a sudden just change their style of play and get right into a rhythm when they've been playing a certain way all season long?
That happened in the 2011 Finals??


That's not how basketball works at that level. Wade and Bosh had to modify their games drastically to coincide with lebrons style of play and that is why they went 2/4.
But there was no modifying since James allegedly didn't show up in the 2011 Finals. There was no "LeBron ball" in those Finals and yet the team still lost.

Why is that?


If Lebron didn't freeze players out and made it easier on his teammates like MJ, the heat would have been 4/4. The first team to 4-peat since the Boston Celtics of the 60's and a FAILED opportunity because of Lebron ball. Let me guess... lebron needed MORE help in order to go 4/4.....:rolleyes:
But he didn't freeze out Wade and Bosh in 2011. Wade was in control, made the best of his chances and Bosh had no problems getting the ball.

Why did Bosh only shoot 41% in 2011 when there was no "LeBron ball" being played? He took more FGA than James did


Apparently so when you lose your FMVP to role players....
Yeah....pretty bad seeing Duncan and Curry lose their FMVP to their role playing teammates.

[Donkey4trading]

No I meant 2001

oh ha got ya..

01 finals scored a 12.1, the masses just aren't watching the finals like they were in the Jordan era, IMO though the Warriors have a chance to grab the attention of the masses if they keep of their elite play while making the finals with Curry as their lead guy

[Straight_Ballin]

No I meant 2001

Because a 6'1, 165 lb guy shit on the entire league, waved the MVP around, and people had never seen something like this happen. Parents of kids who were fans of the game HATED the thuglife culture that surrounded AI. Here was a guy that DNGAF about what anyone thought, was told that he wasn't going to be shit all his life, and and the only reason why he lost is because he was doing up against a team that had a guy who had the highest peak of all time, Shaq. I'm sorry but if I was a superstar in the leauge at that time and some little 6'1, 165 lb guy shitted on me and took my MVP, I'd be kind of pissed....the guy ONLY scored 48 points in the finals against two top 10 player of all time, playing at the same time together in their primes....

[Hey Yo]

93 finals = 17.9

94 finals = 12.0

95 finals = 13.9

96 finals = 16.7

97 finals = 16.8

98 finals = 18.9

99 finals = 11.3

clearly millions upon millions of fans came and went with Jordan..
Dude said people completely stopped watching the NBA all together when MJ quit the first time, in his prime.

There's a difference between not watching the Finals cause he isn't plying in it to completely stop watching the NBA altogether.

[Donkey4trading]

Dude said people completely stopped watching the NBA all together when MJ quit the first time, in his prime.

There's a difference between not watching the Finals cause he isn't plying in it to completely stop watching the NBA altogether.

you're wrong here man

millions of people clearly stopped watching the finals BECAUSE OF Jordan's absence and then immediately millions of people came back to watch the finals in 96.97,98 BECAUSE OF Jordan's presence.. just look at the ratings since Jordan has left, they haven't gotten close to doing the numbers that Jordan was doing..

[Hey Yo]

So you expect players to all of a sudden just change their style of play and get right into a rhythm when they've been playing a certain way all season long? That's not how basketball works at that level. Wade and Bosh had to modify their games drastically to coincide with lebrons style of play and that is why they went 2/4. If Lebron didn't freeze players out and made it easier on his teammates like MJ, the heat would have been 4/4. The first team to 4-peat since the Boston Celtics of the 60's and a FAILED opportunity because of Lebron ball. Let me guess... lebron needed MORE help in order to go 4/4.....:rolleyes: Apparently so when you lose your FMVP to role players....
But there was no LeBron ball played in the 2011 Finals, so how did they miss out on 4/4

Your boy missed out on 4/4...TWICE because he quit both times after the 3rd title in a row....once in his prime while under contract. MJ FAILED w/o even trying!

[Donkey4trading]

Because a 6'1, 165 lb guy shit on the entire league, waved the MVP around, and people had never seen something like this happen. Parents of kids who were fans of the game HATED the thuglife culture that surrounded AI. Here was a guy that DNGAF about what anyone thought, was told that he wasn't going to be shit all his life, and and the only reason why he lost is because he was doing up against a team that had a guy who had the highest peak of all time, Shaq. I'm sorry but if I was a superstar in the leauge at that time and some little 6'1, 165 lb guy shitted on me and took my MVP, I'd be kind of pissed....the guy ONLY scored 48 points in the finals against two top 10 player of all time, playing at the same time together in their primes....

you had the undefeated Lakers playing against the MVP AI, Kobe was averaging 33/7/7 on 50% through the playoffs and was looking like and getting compared to Jordan and then you had AI who was extremely popular

even then those 3 massive stars weren't able to garner the mainstream interest that Jordan was able to do

[Hey Yo]

you're wrong here man

millions of people clearly stopped watching the finals BECAUSE OF Jordan's absence and then immediately millions of people came back to watch the finals in 96.97,98 BECAUSE OF Jordan's presence.. just look at the ratings since Jordan has left, they haven't gotten close to doing the numbers that Jordan was doing..
I'm not denying there was a decline in Finals ratings, but to imply people never watched another regular season game between the 92-93 and 95-96 regular season (MJ's first full season back) is asinine.

[Straight_Ballin]

But there was no modifying since James allegedly didn't show up in the 2011 Finals. There was no "LeBron ball" in those Finals and yet the team still lost.

Why is that?

Look at the stats. Look at the type of shots Bosh took relative to the hots he took in Toronto because of the negative effect that Bron ball had on him. Apparently Bron needed MORE help :lol The tried and true "go to" outlet for bran stans. When he loses, it's because his teammates "didn't do enough and needs more help", but when he wins "he did it and with very little help". I love how the agenda is always changing to cast this guy in a positive light when he's only shown us that he is 2/6 despite being on stacked teams and playing in a weak eastern conference. Again, what will be the excuse in 2016 when the Cavs have a full healthy roster and lose to Curry and the GSW? Let me guess, it will be that Bron didn't have enough help regardless of what the stats show with him freezing out his teammates. Funny how other greats like Dirk didn't have that problem when they won with much less.

[Donkey4trading]

I'm not denying there was a decline in Finals ratings, but to imply people never watched another regular season game between the 92-93 and 95-96 regular season (MJ's first full season back) is asinine.

so what you're trying to claim is that the millions of casual fans who watched the finals in 93 but didn't watch the finals in 94 were still watching regular season games in 94 and then just for whatever reason didn't watch the finals..

that's ridiculous

[Straight_Ballin]

But there was no LeBron ball played in the 2011 Finals, so how did they miss out on 4/4

Your boy missed out on 4/4...TWICE because he quit both times after the 3rd title in a row....once in his prime while under contract. MJ FAILED w/o even trying!

He didn't miss out. He got bored and left. And then when he came back, he showed the world again exactly why he left the first time by 3-peating yet AGAIN! :oldlol: Not sure why you are even trying to compare such greatness to an inferior career which involves colluding and only going 2/6...

[GrapeApe]

So are Wade and Bosh, and a prime Shaq & Kobe never had 2 HOF players in their primes playing bedside them either

Kobe had to face the same thing after Shaq left, was that fair? Boo ****ing whooo, if you're an atg these are the type of expectations you have to live up to. Many people saw Wade as Lebron's crutch, Wade had won a ring and FMVP years before Lebron ever showed up.. Lebron even said that he needed Wade to "teach him how to win".. now the question is if he can win without that crutch..

and you are completely ignoring the fact that Lebron played with 2 HOFers in their primes while in his prime for 4 straight years..

If prime Kobe and Shaq had two HOFer's playing with them for all of their prime years & hand picking every teammate they had then nobody would be saying they didn't have enough help, so please cut the bullshit, most players would kill to play with the teams Lebron has played with for the past 6 years

You're backpedaling and changing the subject. If you want to criticize Lebron for not winning more with the Heat, fine. That's a different subject though. You brought up the fact that Lebron has never won with 2 sets of teammates. He won 2 titles with the set of teammates he had on the Heat. What about the other set of teammates? That's what we're talking about, right? Winning titles with 2 sets of teammates? I pointed out that he's never had the quality of teammates on 2 teams that Shaq and Kobe had. Instead of addressing that point you ignored it and tried to change the subject.

[Wade's Rings]

But there was no LeBron ball played in the 2011 Finals, so how did they miss out on 4/4

Your boy missed out on 4/4...TWICE because he quit both times after the 3rd title in a row....once in his prime while under contract. MJ FAILED w/o even trying!

Bron choked in 2011 & didn't play that great in 2014.

[Straight_Ballin]

You're backpedaling and changing the subject. If you want to criticize Lebron for not winning more with the Heat, fine. That's a different subject though. You brought up the fact that Lebron has never won with 2 sets of teammates. He won 2 titles with the set of teammates he had on the Heat. What about the other set of teammates? That's what we're talking about, right? Winning titles with 2 sets of teammates? I pointed out that he's never had the quality of teammates on 2 teams that Shaq and Kobe had. Instead of addressing that point you ignored it and tried to change the subject.

This was already addressed by pointing out the fact that Dirk won with much less. The criticism is valid and the main topic of the thread is valid.