Is Carmelo a top 10 SF all time?

[Fire Colangelo]

Discuss.

Would you take him over the likes of Dominique, Dantley, Worthy, Pierce, etc?

[Segatti]

No.

[LoneyROY7]

These last couple years have really hurt him legacy wise tbh.

[Collie]

Bron
Bird
Dr. J
Hondo
Barry
Pippen

are all ahead of him.

So he's competing with guys like Nique, English, Dantley, King, etc. for the final 4 spots.

I think he's better than King career-wise, despite King having a better peak. So I'd say, yeah, he can probably slip into the top 10.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bird
LeBron
Dr. J
Baylor
Hondo
Pippen
Barry
Dominique
McGrady
Durant

You taking Carmelo over any of those?

[dhsilv]

No!

[Fire Colangelo]

Bird
LeBron
Dr. J
Baylor
Hondo
Pippen
Barry
Dominique
McGrady
Durant

You taking Carmelo over any of those?

I can certainly see arguments for Dominique and McGrady (who I list as a SG).

[Collie]

I forgot Durant, but yeah KD is ahead of him as of this point. And Baylor as well, but I tend to view him more of a PF.

[pauk]

Not on my list:

1. Bird/Lebron
1. Lebron/Bird
3. Baylor
4. Dr. J
5. Pippen
6. Barry
7. Dominique
8. Havlicek (if you value rings, you could have him much higher up)
9. Dantley
10. Worthy

Durant however... dont know where to put him / who to take out down there, probably Dantley or something, he is definitely top 10.

[1987_Lakers]

Bird
LeBron
Dr. J
Baylor
Hondo
Pippen
Barry
Dominique
McGrady
Durant

You taking Carmelo over any of those?

I have McGrady as a SG. Durant will end up having a better career than Carmelo.

I see Carmelo in the Dominique range. Both one-dimensional dominant scorers who didn't have much team success.

[1987_Lakers]

Not on my list:

1. Bird/Lebron
1. Lebron/Bird
3. Baylor
4. Dr. J
5. Pippen
6. Barry
7. Dominique
8. Havlicek (if you value rings, you could have him much higher up)
9. Dantley
10. Worthy

As an individual player I have Carmelo ahead of Worthy.

[L.Kizzle]

I have McGrady as a SG. Durant will end up having a better career than Carmelo.

I see Carmelo in the Dominique range. Both one-dimensional dominant scorers who didn't have much team success.
Will, he's already had a better career.

And Carmelo is no where close to Dominique.

You'd have a hard time putting Carmelo over Chris Mullin, Bob Dandridge or Grant Hill.

[imdaman99]

Hell no. Even Knick fans are sick of this guy.

[Fire Colangelo]

Not on my list:

1. Bird/Lebron
1. Lebron/Bird
3. Baylor
4. Dr. J
5. Pippen
6. Barry
7. Dominique
8. Havlicek (if you value rings, you could have him much higher up)
9. Dantley
10. Worthy

Durant however... dont know where to put him / who to take out down there, probably Dantley or something.

Durant is well above Dominique and Dantley imo. If his career ended today, he'd be:

4x scoring champ
1x MVP
5x 1st team all NBA

That's more than enough to put him over Nique and Dantley, and Worthy as well if you value prime/peak over rings.

I see arguments for Carmelo over Nique, Dantley, English, King, etc as well.

[dhsilv]

I have McGrady as a SG. Durant will end up having a better career than Carmelo.

I see Carmelo in the Dominique range. Both one-dimensional dominant scorers who didn't have much team success.

Agree but dominique was a better scorer.

Of course we're leaving Piece off. Reggie MIller. Shawn Marion (very under valued imo). Chet Walker (maybe not but still adding to the discussion). Detlef Schrempf (ok again maybe I'm being mean to melo, but I'd have to think more than a few seconds on who I'd want on a team built to win a title). Paul Arizin (before my time but still)?

We have the iffy 2/3 guys like George Gervin and Vince Carter.

Grant Hill with the better peak.

In short there is no possible way I'd ever consider Melo top 10 at the 3.

[pauk]

As an individual player I have Carmelo ahead of Worthy.

Ah yes, why not. Personally im not entirely sure tho, Worthy is underrated there because of Kareem/Magic, Carmelo is the more wider ranged scorer (better jumpshooter) and scored more obviously but i think Worthy could have averaged 25-30 ppg if he wished aswell IF he didnt play with Kareem/Magic (if he got more touches/was 1st option), he was insanely efficient offensively.... and he was a better defender than Carmelo.

[Fire Colangelo]

Will, he's already had a better career.

And Carmelo is no where close to Dominique.

You'd have a hard time putting Carmelo over Chris Mullin, Bob Dandridge or Grant Hill.

Interesting.

I'd take Carmelo over any of those guys.

[stalkerforlife]

1. Bird
2. Durant
3. Pippen
4. Baylor
5. Dominique

After that, you can surely make an argument that Melo is close to the remaining 5.

[pauk]

Durant is well above Dominique and Dantley imo. If his career ended today, he'd be:

4x scoring champ
1x MVP
5x 1st team all NBA

That's more than enough to put him over Nique and Dantley, and Worthy as well if you value prime/peak over rings.

I see arguments for Carmelo over Nique, Dantley, English, King, etc as well.

Yep yep.

[Fire Colangelo]

Ah yes, why not. Personally im not entirely sure tho, Worthy is underrated there because of Kareem/Magic, Carmelo is the more wider ranged scorer (better jumpshooter) and scored more obviously but i think Worthy could have averaged 25-30 ppg if he wished aswell IF he didnt play with Kareem/Magic (if he got more touches/was 1st option), he was insanely efficient offensively.... and he was a better defender than Carmelo.

It's hard to compare a 1st option to a 3rd option. On one hand you can argue that Worthy could've scored more if he had more touches. On the other you can argue that Worthy's defense and team record wouldn't be as good if he was the first option.

I almost forgot Paul Pierce, he's definitely a top 10 SF IMO.

[pauk]

1. Bird
2. Durant
3. Pippen
4. Baylor
5. Dominique

After that, you can surely make an argument that Melo is close to the remaining 5.

Where is Kobe? :no: He is listed SF this season (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html)

[Fire Colangelo]

1. Bird
2. Durant
3. Pippen
4. Baylor
5. Dominique

After that, you can surely make an argument that Melo is close to the remaining 5.

Ah,

was going to ask you to elaborate on this.





Then I realize it was you, so I won't really bother. :cheers:

[pauk]

It's hard to compare a 1st option to a 3rd option. On one hand you can argue that Worthy could've scored more if he had more touches. On the other you can argue that Worthy's defense and team record wouldn't be as good if he was the first option.

I almost forgot Paul Pierce, he's definitely a top 10 SF IMO.

Agree and oops... Pierce....

[stalkerforlife]

Ah,

was going to ask you to elaborate on this.





Then I realize it was you, so I won't really bother. :cheers:

Some people consider Bran to be a top 5 player in the world, but he's really just Dominique if Wilkins had colluded with 4 top 10 players in his prime to eliminate all the competition.

[TripleA]

Dominique was pretty much just a Melo with Hops.

[ClipperRevival]

There are superstars who can give you "the man" scoring, make teammates better and win rings. Melo is obviously below that top tier. He's in the same class of great scorers who could provide alpha scoring but didn't make their teammates better. Like Dantley, English, Gervin, Nique, McGrady, etc.

Not top 10.

[Fire Colangelo]

Agree but dominique was a better scorer.

Of course we're leaving Piece off. Reggie MIller. Shawn Marion (very under valued imo). Chet Walker (maybe not but still adding to the discussion). Detlef Schrempf (ok again maybe I'm being mean to melo, but I'd have to think more than a few seconds on who I'd want on a team built to win a title). Paul Arizin (before my time but still)?

We have the iffy 2/3 guys like George Gervin and Vince Carter.

Grant Hill with the better peak.

In short there is no possible way I'd ever consider Melo top 10 at the 3.

Pierce is a good one, but I just can't justify Shawn Marion, Walker, or Shrempf over Melo. We're talking about a guy that's led his team to the playoffs for 10 straight years.

Grant Hill's peak was... a couple of seasons that didn't really lead to any playoff success. I can't really justify that for a decade of excellence on Melo either.

It's easy to make fun of him, but I think he gets really underappreciated in these forums. I mean... he played with JR Smith for most of his career.

[TripleA]

Some people consider Bran to be a top 5 player in the world, but he's really just Dominique if Wilkins had colluded with 4 top 10 players in his prime to eliminate all the competition.

When was Chris Bosh a top 10 player.

[Fire Colangelo]

There are superstars who can give you "the man" scoring, make teammates better and win rings. Melo is obviously below that top tier. He's in the same class of great scorers who could provide alpha scoring but didn't make their teammates better. Like Dantley, English, Gervin, Nique, McGrady, etc.

Not top 10.

Well, somebody's got to fill up the top 10.

I see Gervin and McGrady as shooting guards.

Who's your top 10?

[stalkerforlife]

When was Chris Bosh a top 10 player.

Stop trolling.

Bosh was the best pick and roll defender in the league and he averaged 24 and 11 on 52% the year before he joined Miami.

[L.Kizzle]

Carmelo is closer to a top 20 SF than a top 10 SF.

Bird
Baylor
Doc J
Bron
Barry
Havlicek
Pippen
Arizin
Durant
Wilkins
Worthy
Pierce
King
English
Dantley
Gus Johnson
Vince Carter
Cliff Hagan
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Bob Dandridge

Than you have guys like Jack Twyman, Jim Pollard, Walter Davis, George Yardley, Chet Walker, Jamaal Wilkes, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguire, Shawn Marion.

[TripleA]

Stop trolling.

Bosh was the best pick and roll defender in the league and he averaged 24 and 11 on 52% the year before he joined Miami.

All I see is one all NBA team. Top 15 player not a legit top 10.

[pauk]

Speaking of individual talent/skills alone (domination/impact/stats etc.) and yes defense is considered to, the greatest ive seen are (all in their prime/peak):

1. LeBron James (Bird would be the nostalgia choice & my acquired taste in players which is shooting, but man overall with defense i think prime LeBron may have an edge)
2. Larry Bird
3. Kevin Durant
4. Tracy McGrady
5. Prime Grant Hill
6. Julius Erving (seen only some 80s games, not his ABA prime)
7. Scottie Pippen
8. Dominique Wilkins
9. Adrian Dantley (seen much of 80s Jazz, that guy could ***ing put the ball in the hole, made it look very easy)
10. Carmelo Anthony

Not seen prime Havlicek, Elgin & Barry but they would be up there.

[1987_Lakers]

Carmelo is closer to a top 20 SF than a top 10 SF.

Bird
Baylor
Doc J
Bron
Barry
Havlicek
Pippen
Arizin
Durant
Wilkins
Worthy
Pierce
King
English
Dantley
Gus Johnson
Vince Carter
Cliff Hagan
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Bob Dandridge

Than you have guys like Jack Twyman, Jim Pollard, Walter Davis, George Yardley, Chet Walker, Jamaal Wilkes, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguire, Shawn Marion.

Carmelo is better than most of the guys you just named, no question.

How can you put King & Hill over Carmelo when their careers were way too short?

I could get started on alot of the guys you mentioned, but I don't have the patience.

[TripleA]

Kobe,Lebron,Wade,Durant,Duncan,Dirk,Nash,Cp3,Brand on Roy,Melo,Kevin Garnett,Dwight all better.

[ClipperRevival]

Well, somebody's got to fill up the top 10.

I see Gervin and McGrady as shooting guards.

Who's your top 10?

Guys I would rate over Melo, in no particular order.

Bird
Bron
Erving
Baylor
Barry
Pippen
Havlichek
Nique
Durant
Pierce

So that's 10 right there and he's there in the mix with guys like Dantley, English, Gervin, King, Worthy, McGrady, etc.

[Fire Colangelo]

Carmelo is closer to a top 20 SF than a top 10 SF.

Bird
Baylor
Doc J
Bron
Barry
Havlicek
Pippen
Arizin
Durant
Wilkins
Worthy
Pierce
King
English
Dantley
Gus Johnson
Vince Carter
Cliff Hagan
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Bob Dandridge

Than you have guys like Jack Twyman, Jim Pollard, Walter Davis, George Yardley, Chet Walker, Jamaal Wilkes, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguire, Shawn Marion.

Instead of listing all these players, can you try to make an argument for any of the bolded?

The bolded imo has zero argument over Carmelo. Then you got guys like Dantley, Worth, Pierce, and Nique who could go either way.

[1987_Lakers]

Will, he's already had a better career.

And Carmelo is no where close to Dominique.

You'd have a hard time putting Carmelo over Chris Mullin, Bob Dandridge or Grant Hill.

Career scoring averages...
Dominique - 25 ppg
Carmelo 25 ppg

Stats are very similar all across the board including fg%, reb, & ast.

Dominique - 7x All-NBA Team, 9x All-Star
Carmelo - 6x All-NBA Team, 8x All-Star

"Carmelo is no where close to Dominique":oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

Carmelo is closer to a top 20 SF than a top 10 SF.

Bird
Baylor
Doc J
Bron
Barry
Havlicek
Pippen
Arizin
Durant
Wilkins
Worthy
Pierce
King
English
Dantley
Gus Johnson
Vince Carter
Cliff Hagan
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Bob Dandridge

Than you have guys like Jack Twyman, Jim Pollard, Walter Davis, George Yardley, Chet Walker, Jamaal Wilkes, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguire, Shawn Marion.

As much of a ball stopper as he was, Melo was one of the better scorers in history. His 25.1 career ppg is 11th all time. He sh't on a lot of the guys you mentioned.

[Fire Colangelo]

Guys I would rate over Melo, in no particular order.

Bird
Bron
Erving
Baylor
Barry
Pippen
Havlichek
Nique
Durant
Pierce

So that's 10 right there and he's there in the mix with guys like Dantley, English, Gervin, King, Worthy, McGrady, etc.

What puts Nique over Carmelo?

[L.Kizzle]

Carmelo is better than most of the guys you just named, no question.

How can you put King & Hill over Carmelo when their careers were way too short?

I could get started on alot of the guys you mentioned, but I don't have the patience.
Because Grant Hill and King were just plain better. I've seen Hill's career, and his career wasn't as short as you think. HE played 7 seasons at all-star level (a lot of those seasons, the best SF in the league and a top 5 player) before his injuries. And he even came back to have a solid ending to his career.

I'd like to see most of those guys you say Carmelo is better than? One, in his ere somewhat is Vince Carter, who I'd take over Carmelo.

[Prime_Shaq]

:wtf:

[dhsilv]

Pierce is a good one, but I just can't justify Shawn Marion, Walker, or Shrempf over Melo. We're talking about a guy that's led his team to the playoffs for 10 straight years.

Grant Hill's peak was... a couple of seasons that didn't really lead to any playoff success. I can't really justify that for a decade of excellence on Melo either.

It's easy to make fun of him, but I think he gets really underappreciated in these forums. I mean... he played with JR Smith for most of his career.

As I said I clearly was being a bit mean there.

But really, Reggie Miller vs Melo? Yes stats favor melo, but if you're in the playoffs and you're picking one guy to be your leader, do you not want miller?

I don't think Melo can be the best player on a title team. I'm sure marion can be the 3rd best player on a title team. He's an all time great defender and glue guy.

When ranking the top 10 at a spot, do we care if they can lead a team by them-self or do you care if they can contribute the most value towards a win in the most different scenarios?

Melo doesn't do well in advanced stats. He's not in the top 100 in winshare or vorp. He's 46ths in PER. He actually had some good teams in Denver with real legit nba talent around him and he just never performed.

He's got all the talent in the world. He seriously has every offensive move you could dream of for a guy with his size. He looks a lot better in a scouting report however than he plays. He's just never been a guy who I thought moved the needle towards winning a title. His PER drops under 20 in the playoffs. His winshare per 48 is roughly .100, you want a star around .200. His playoff BPM is 1.2. And this is over 66 games. He's been out of the first round twice in his whole career.

Sure a guy like Grant Hill lost in the first round every year in Detroit, but he at least had a 22.9 PER in those 15 games. 5.9 BPM and .112 ws/48 (ok not so hot there). Still Hill looked like an all star in the playoffs no just a team not that good. Melo has better teams around him in Denver and more opportunities.

Even Miller who I think is overrated historically has better playoff stats through the same age as Melo. Really if you don't count his last couple of old man years a PER of 21, WS/48 of .194 and a BPM of over 5.

[1987_Lakers]

Because Grant Hill and King were just plain better. I've seen Hill's career, and his career wasn't as short as you think. HE played 7 seasons at all-star level (a lot of those seasons, the best SF in the league and a top 5 player) before his injuries. And he even came back to have a solid ending to his career.

I'd like to see most of those guys you say Carmelo is better than? One, in his ere somewhat is Vince Carter, who I'd take over Carmelo.

When Bill Walton was healthy he was arguably a top 10 player of all time, but nobody in their right mind ranks Walton that high.

We are talking careers here, and Carmelo's resume is much better than King's & Hill's.

[ClipperRevival]

What puts Nique over Carmelo?

Greater, consistent peak. Over a 9 year stretch, he gave you 28.2 ppg. Plus, his superior athleticism made him a dangerous scorer in transition. Playoff success is somewhat of a wash.

[dhsilv]

What puts Nique over Carmelo?

Basically same number of games to start nique's career. He's got a better PER, WS and VORP. Melo has better playoff stats by a hair though Melo I would hope we all agree had way better teammates.

Nique was a better offensive player and just as awful defensively. Neither were leaders. But Nique was just enough better at offense to get the edger here. He also was more important to the game if that means anything to you.

Awards also favor him if that matters to you...

[1987_Lakers]

Greater, consistent peak. Over a 9 year stretch, he gave you 28.2 ppg. Plus, his superior athleticism made him a dangerous scorer in transition. Playoff success is somewhat of a wash.

Both were different scorers, Dominique was a guy who used his athleticism to score and was a better finisher, Carmelo on the other hand was a much more skilled scorer and had the better jumper.

Career wise, both are neck and neck IMO. Dominique probably has a slight edge.

[L.Kizzle]

Instead of listing all these players, can you try to make an argument for any of the bolded?

The bolded imo has zero argument over Carmelo. Then you got guys like Dantley, Worth, Pierce, and Nique who could go either way.
I wasn't saying all of these guys are better than Melo. Especially the bottom half like Mark Aguirre and all of those guys.

But up top, the bolded names, most if not all can be argued as better.

Paul Arizin - Led team to NBA title. 10 time All-Star, three time All-NBA 1st team. Best SF of the 1950s.

King - Was neck-neck with Bird one year for MVP. Was more unstoppable than Carmelo. Two 1st Team All-NBAs. His peak was shorter than Melo's but it blows his out the warter.

English - Leading scorer of the 1980s. Still the best player in a Denver uniform.

Gus Johnson - Actually more of a PF, so he can go.

Vince Carter - I think VC at his best was better.

Grant Hill - Already did him.

And the others below, you can make an argument for either/or.
Cliff Hagan
Chris Mullin
Bob Dandridge

[ClipperRevival]

The best 9 year run Melo had was 26.3 ppg. So Nique beat Melo by 2 ppg over a 9 year stretch at their best. Not to mention, Nique topped 30 ppg twice and just missed out a 3rd time at 29.9 ppg. Nique just peaked higher.

[L.Kizzle]

Career scoring averages...
Dominique - 25 ppg
Carmelo 25 ppg

Stats are very similar all across the board including fg%, reb, & ast.

Dominique - 7x All-NBA Team, 9x All-Star
Carmelo - 6x All-NBA Team, 8x All-Star

"Carmelo is no where close to Dominique":oldlol:
All I'm saying is a lot of publications put Nique around a top 40-50 player all-time. Carmelo is never in any top 50 discussions ...

I can show you plenty with Nique, but can you find just one with Carmelo?

[L.Kizzle]

When Bill Walton was healthy he was arguably a top 10 player of all time, but nobody in their right mind ranks Walton that high.

We are talking careers here, and Carmelo's resume is much better than King's & Hill's.
Bill Walton had one healthy season, totally different from Bernard King. By your definition, Joe Johnson has had a better career than King to since he's been relatively healthy his years and made like 7 All-Star teams (same as Carmelo I think.)

[dhsilv]

Career scoring averages...
Dominique - 25 ppg
Carmelo 25 ppg

Stats are very similar all across the board including fg%, reb, & ast.

Dominique - 7x All-NBA Team, 9x All-Star
Carmelo - 6x All-NBA Team, 8x All-Star

"Carmelo is no where close to Dominique":oldlol:

Almost all of melo's all nba teams were 3rd where as nique was generally on the second team with one first team. Nique played longer so those career averages are dragged down by his later years.

I'm not sure I'd say nowhere close, but I'd say he's as good or better by virtually any method of comparing them.

[ClipperRevival]

Both were different scorers, Dominique was a guy who used his athleticism to score and was a better finisher, Carmelo on the other hand was a much more skilled scorer and had the better jumper.

Career wise, both are neck and neck IMO. Dominique probably has a slight edge.

MJ used his athleticism. So did Bron. Athleticism is a part of who you are as a player. Nique shouldn't be hampered for being noticeably more athletic. Melo clearly had the edge in size and strength and could probably get his on Nique down in the post though.

[Fire Colangelo]

As I said I clearly was being a bit mean there.

But really, Reggie Miller vs Melo? Yes stats favor melo, but if you're in the playoffs and you're picking one guy to be your leader, do you not want miller?

I don't think Melo can be the best player on a title team. I'm sure marion can be the 3rd best player on a title team. He's an all time great defender and glue guy.

When ranking the top 10 at a spot, do we care if they can lead a team by them-self or do you care if they can contribute the most value towards a win in the most different scenarios?

Melo doesn't do well in advanced stats. He's not in the top 100 in winshare or vorp. He's 46ths in PER. He actually had some good teams in Denver with real legit nba talent around him and he just never performed.

He's got all the talent in the world. He seriously has every offensive move you could dream of for a guy with his size. He looks a lot better in a scouting report however than he plays. He's just never been a guy who I thought moved the needle towards winning a title. His PER drops under 20 in the playoffs. His winshare per 48 is roughly .100, you want a star around .200. His playoff BPM is 1.2. And this is over 66 games. He's been out of the first round twice in his whole career.

Sure a guy like Grant Hill lost in the first round every year in Detroit, but he at least had a 22.9 PER in those 15 games. 5.9 BPM and .112 ws/48 (ok not so hot there). Still Hill looked like an all star in the playoffs no just a team not that good. Melo has better teams around him in Denver and more opportunities.

Even Miller who I think is overrated historically has better playoff stats through the same age as Melo. Really if you don't count his last couple of old man years a PER of 21, WS/48 of .194 and a BPM of over 5.

Well, Reggie Miller is a shooting guard. So we're kinda talking apple vs oranges here....

Using your criteria of PER and winshares, Melo is far better than Shawn Marion, Dantley and Dominique (PER of above 20 only twice in his career). And Nique is someone that most people have as a top 10 SF.

I like Paul Pierce, but what has he done outside of the big 3? Not much really...

Grant Hill and Bernard King were really good for a couple of years, but Melo was really good for a decade and he's still going. How can you justify them over Carmelo in an all time ranking?

Not the mention Melo never really played on great teams either, dude played with JR Smith for most of his career and made the most out of it. That's gota count for something.

[1987_Lakers]

The best 9 year run Melo had was 26.3 ppg. So Nique beat Melo by 2 ppg over a 9 year stretch at their best. Not to mention, Nique topped 30 ppg twice and just missed out a 3rd time at 29.9 ppg. Nique just peaked higher.

You also have to factor the eras they played in. Nique played in a faster paced era in which might explain his higher ppg.

[Fire Colangelo]

The best 9 year run Melo had was 26.3 ppg. So Nique beat Melo by 2 ppg over a 9 year stretch at their best. Not to mention, Nique topped 30 ppg twice and just missed out a 3rd time at 29.9 ppg. Nique just peaked higher.

1986 Nique: 30/8/3 on 53.6TS%
2013 Melo: 29/7/3 on 56% TS

I would say that's pretty comparable.

Keep in mind that the Knicks played at a much slower pace than the Hawks did as well.

[ClipperRevival]

I agree that Nique and Melo are close. But one thing to keep in mind is that Nique played until 39 and his career ppg is still at a tad under 25 ppg. If Melo plays that long, his career ppg average will probablu end up around 22 ppg. That's why you have to look at their prime run. Nique peaked higher.

[Fire Colangelo]

Basically same number of games to start nique's career. He's got a better PER, WS and VORP. Melo has better playoff stats by a hair though Melo I would hope we all agree had way better teammates.

Nique was a better offensive player and just as awful defensively. Neither were leaders. But Nique was just enough better at offense to get the edger here. He also was more important to the game if that means anything to you.

Awards also favor him if that matters to you...

It really doesn't.... lol.

I wouldn't call a cast of:

JR Smith
Tyson Chandler
Amare
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Felton
39 year old Jason Kidd

Much better than what Nique had, in fact they kind of suck.

[dhsilv]

Well, Reggie Miller is a shooting guard. So we're kinda talking apple vs oranges here....

Using your criteria of PER and winshares, Melo is far better than Shawn Marion, Dantley and Dominique (PER of above 20 only twice in his career). And Nique is someone that most people have as a top 10 SF.

I like Paul Pierce, but what has he done outside of the big 3? Not much really...

Grant Hill and Bernard King were really good for a couple of years, but Melo was really good for a decade and he's still going. How can you justify them over Carmelo in an all time ranking?

Not the mention Melo never really played on great teams either, dude played with JR Smith for most of his career and made the most out of it. That's gota count for something.

I swear I have basketball cards from the 80's calling Miller a SF (which tells you how weird my memory works), but yeah if we're calling him a SG that's fine. Honestly he was a small forward playing the 2 because they had 2 power forwards and a center on those teams. But sure we can drop him.

http://i.imgur.com/5D2Cpfc.jpg

As for the PER and VORP and winshare here are the top 35 guys that I found listed as some kinda small forward in their career. This list leaves out guys like worthy. It's sorted on winshare as you seem to like longer careers vs shorter ones thus your preference for Melo over King and Hill.

The thing that i come to is that no matter HOW I weight it, I'm going to have 10 guys better. Hill and King to me had better peaks. So if you're a peak guy, they win. If you're into careers even guys like Mario were just better in amassing stats. If you're talking about building a team to win a title. I just don't see any scenario I go with melo over 10 other small forwards.

Edit

Stats don't count this year as I don't want to waste time constantly updated that data in my spread sheet.

[dhsilv]

It really doesn't.... lol.

I wouldn't call a cast of:

JR Smith
Tyson Chandler
Amare
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Felton
39 year old Jason Kidd

Much better than what Nique had, in fact they kind of suck.

How about a 26 year old Nene, 32 year old Billups, 23 year old DR Mith, 30 yea rold Chirs Andersen, 31 year old Kenyon Martin?

[Fire Colangelo]

I swear I have basketball cards from the 80's calling Miller a SF (which tells you how weird my memory works), but yeah if we're calling him a SG that's fine. Honestly he was a small forward playing the 2 because they had 2 power forwards and a center on those teams. But sure we can drop him.

http://i.imgur.com/5D2Cpfc.jpg

As for the PER and VORP and winshare here are the top 35 guys that I found listed as some kinda small forward in their career. This list leaves out guys like worthy. It's sorted on winshare as you seem to like longer careers vs shorter ones thus your preference for Melo over King and Hill.

The thing that i come to is that no matter HOW I weight it, I'm going to have 10 guys better. Hill and King to me had better peaks. So if you're a peak guy, they win. If you're into careers even guys like Mario were just better in amassing stats. If you're talking about building a team to win a title. I just don't see any scenario I go with melo over 10 other small forwards.


That's fine.

Keep in mind Melo's only 31... so he's got at least 5 seasons to go. Going by this criteria, I could see him going past Dominique at the end of his career. :confusedshrug:

I'm not a fan of advanced statistics just because.... based on your criteria, you got guys like Pierce and Nique above someone like Dr. J for example.

I know you mentioned accolades in your other post. But keep in mind Melo played in an era where the forward position is pretty stacked...

He came into a league with KG, Duncan, Dirk, etc in their primes, and then bumped into LeBron and KD, who are both historic players in recent years.

His 2013 season for example, could probably net him a 1st team selection in almost any era. But of course, LeBron and KD were in their prime.

[Fire Colangelo]

How about a 26 year old Nene, 32 year old Billups, 23 year old DR Mith, 30 yea rold Chirs Andersen, 31 year old Kenyon Martin?

They did great that year, went to the WCF and lost to the eventual champs in 6 games.

[BasedTom]

I respect for the SF position so no

[bizil]

I agree that Nique and Melo are close. But one thing to keep in mind is that Nique played until 39 and his career ppg is still at a tad under 25 ppg. If Melo plays that long, his career ppg average will probablu end up around 22 ppg. That's why you have to look at their prime run. Nique peaked higher.

Well said! As of now, I don't have Melo as a top 10 GOAT SF. But by the end of his career, he could be in that realm. Right now, I think he's more in the top 15-20.

When it comes to Melo and Nique, they are close indeed. But peak wise, I would go with Nique. Nique had the freakish athletic ability to absolutely overwhelm the defense. Just like Baylor, Hawkins, and Dr. J. And more recently Lebron. Plus Nique's scoring skillset is VASTLY UNDERRATED!! And in terms of being a great player for a long time, Nique's had as good of a run AS ANY SF of all time. And THAT covers a lot of ground!

[outbreak]

Problem with melo is every decade has its elite scorers who never win and aren't two way players and they always get forgotten

[bdreason]

When was Chris Bosh a top 10 player.


The season before 'The Decision', Lebron, Wade and Bosh were 3 of the top 4 players in PER. There's a reason people flipped out when they decided to team up.

[bdreason]

As for Melo, looking at other people's list, I'd say he's borderline top 10. I'd take 'Nique over him without a second thought though.

[dhsilv]

That's fine.

Keep in mind Melo's only 31... so he's got at least 5 seasons to go. Going by this criteria, I could see him going past Dominique at the end of his career. :confusedshrug:

I'm not a fan of advanced statistics just because.... based on your criteria, you got guys like Pierce and Nique above someone like Dr. J for example.

I know you mentioned accolades in your other post. But keep in mind Melo played in an era where the forward position is pretty stacked...

He came into a league with KG, Duncan, Dirk, etc in their primes, and then bumped into LeBron and KD, who are both historic players in recent years.

His 2013 season for example, could probably net him a 1st team selection in almost any era. But of course, LeBron and KD were in their prime.

I haven't given a criteria...I'm offered a dozen different ways to stack it. They ALL don't justify Melo being top 10. I think winshare is pretty crappy. I really like VORP however but it doesn't go back. PER is good to compare peaks but not careers.

I have to do work to calculate things like PER and WS/48 and BPM so I didn't bother with the latter two with excel. Though they're better stats for peaks but worse for career.

If we go by peak I will have 10-20 guys better. If we go by career value added (and if you don't go by advanced stats that's pretty weird and hard to argue) again he doesn't do well. If we go by awards he might move up there as he seems to get a lot of love from the voters.

I'm seriously just not buying that 2013 was nearly the year everyone wants to call it. I get it you don't like advanced stats but a WS/48 under .200 for a first team all nba guy, who is a scorer with a high useage rate? PER under 25 for a guy with a 35% usage rate? Or a VORP under 3?

I mean look advanced stats aren't everything. They don't measure defense well but Melo doesn't play defense. They don't measure passing to play making from a ball handler (they under value point guards) but melo isn't a point guard. They slightly over value big men as they get "free" rebounds and well as a 3 he might be neutral there, he plays like a 4 a lot on the boards. He does everything you'd generically want a guy to do to "game" the advanced stats, but he doesn't rank well there.

Watching the knicks and how he plays doesn't make me think the stats are wrong. Often I wonder if they're over valuing him if anything.

I use stats as ways to confirm what I think I"m seeing is accurate or not. If I don't agree with stats, I try to understand why they are missing what I'm seeing or why I don't see what they're showing. With Melo I have to go to the stats to bring him up because the eye test just tells me this is an absurdly skilled guy who just doesn't seem to know how to make good decisions and it constantly hurts his team.

[Fire Colangelo]

I haven't given a criteria...I'm offered a dozen different ways to stack it. They ALL don't justify Melo being top 10. I think winshare is pretty crappy. I really like VORP however but it doesn't go back. PER is good to compare peaks but not careers.

I have to do work to calculate things like PER and WS/48 and BPM so I didn't bother with the latter two with excel. Though they're better stats for peaks but worse for career.

If we go by peak I will have 10-20 guys better. If we go by career value added (and if you don't go by advanced stats that's pretty weird and hard to argue) again he doesn't do well. If we go by awards he might move up there as he seems to get a lot of love from the voters.

I'm seriously just not buying that 2013 was nearly the year everyone wants to call it. I get it you don't like advanced stats but a WS/48 under .200 for a first team all nba guy, who is a scorer with a high useage rate? PER under 25 for a guy with a 35% usage rate? Or a VORP under 3?

I mean look advanced stats aren't everything. They don't measure defense well but Melo doesn't play defense. They don't measure passing to play making from a ball handler (they under value point guards) but melo isn't a point guard. They slightly over value big men as they get "free" rebounds and well as a 3 he might be neutral there, he plays like a 4 a lot on the boards. He does everything you'd generically want a guy to do to "game" the advanced stats, but he doesn't rank well there.

Watching the knicks and how he plays doesn't make me think the stats are wrong. Often I wonder if they're over valuing him if anything.

I use stats as ways to confirm what I think I"m seeing is accurate or not. If I don't agree with stats, I try to understand why they are missing what I'm seeing or why I don't see what they're showing. With Melo I have to go to the stats to bring him up because the eye test just tells me this is an absurdly skilled guy who just doesn't seem to know how to make good decisions and it constantly hurts his team.

Good post, thanks for the serious replies.

I don't really see Melo as a type of player where you can put him on any team and he'll make them a contender. He's no where in the level of LeBron, Bird, Dr.J, etc. But we're talking about top 10 SF here, not top 10 player all time.

I see most people have Nique over Melo in the top 10, but why? Nothing really suggests that.

They're incredibly close in terms of accolades, stats, whatever. What makes Nique better than Melo? Is it intangibles? Is it nostalgia maybe?

I understand Melo's weaknesses, he's not the most efficient scorer, not a great playmaker and not a great defender. But same applies of Nique as well. Peak for peak I think they're pretty similar even without adjusting for pace. I'd also like to add that Carmelo's competition at the forward spot is better than Nique's competition as well.

Carmelo came into the league at the golden era of perimeter players and also fought for all NBA teams against guys like Duncan, KG, Dirk, LeBron and KD in their primes.

Melo is not a guy who I consider as successful in the playoffs either, but his run in 2009 is far better than anything Nique did in the playoffs.

[bizil]

Problem with melo is every decade has its elite scorers who never win and aren't two way players and they always get forgotten

Tremendous point!! When u look at Bird, Bron, Barry, Baylor, and Hondo, they are ALL regarded as great all around players. PLUS they all were/are alpha dog scorers on top of it. From there, guys like Dr. J and Durant were/are alpha dogs AND damn good all around players too.

So guys like Melo, Dantley, and King will get shitted on or forgotten. Dantley was in a position to win rings with Detroit but got traded for another high scoring SF in Aguirre. But Dantley had the better career than Aguirre. Getting those two rings as the #1 or #2 scorer for Detroit would have been HUGE FOR HIS LEGACY!! It likely cost him a top 7-8 spot on the GOAT SF list. So win it comes to SF's like a Melo or AD, not winning a ring tends to taint your career in the eyes of many. Which is unfortunate...

[bizil]

Good post, thanks for the serious replies.

I don't really see Melo as a type of player where you can put him on any team and he'll make them a contender. He's no where in the level of LeBron, Bird, Dr.J, etc. But we're talking about top 10 SF here, not top 10 player all time.

I see most people have Nique over Melo in the top 10, but why? Nothing really suggests that.

They're incredibly close in terms of accolades, stats, whatever. What makes Nique better than Melo? Is it intangibles? Is it nostalgia maybe?

I understand Melo's weaknesses, he's not the most efficient scorer, not a great playmaker and not a great defender. But same applies of Nique as well. Peak for peak I think they're pretty similar even without adjusting for pace. I'd also like to add that Carmelo's competition at the forward spot is better than Nique's competition as well.

Carmelo came into the league at the golden era of perimeter players and also fought for all NBA teams against guys like Duncan, KG, Dirk, LeBron and KD in their primes.

Melo is not a guy who I consider as successful in the playoffs either, but his run in 2009 is far better than anything Nique did in the playoffs.

Good points! When u look at Melo and Nique they are EPIC at the most premium asset in basketball. And that's alpha dog scoring. But both are great rebounders for SF's. So just ON THAT ALONE, I consider great superstar kind of players. Often times in Nique's career, he was considered a top 10 player in the world. The same can be said for Melo as well.

So they may not be Bird or Bron in terms of combining great scoring and great all around ability. BUT Nique and Melo are flat out great players! And by the end of Melo's career, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a top 10 GOAT SF. And peak wise, I consider Nique and Melo on the same level. Not on the first tier with Bird, Bron, Hondo, Dr. J, Durant, Baylor, and Barry. But on that second tier of great superstar kind of SF's.

[bizil]

Good post, thanks for the serious replies.

I don't really see Melo as a type of player where you can put him on any team and he'll make them a contender. He's no where in the level of LeBron, Bird, Dr.J, etc. But we're talking about top 10 SF here, not top 10 player all time.

I see most people have Nique over Melo in the top 10, but why? Nothing really suggests that.

They're incredibly close in terms of accolades, stats, whatever. What makes Nique better than Melo? Is it intangibles? Is it nostalgia maybe?

I understand Melo's weaknesses, he's not the most efficient scorer, not a great playmaker and not a great defender. But same applies of Nique as well. Peak for peak I think they're pretty similar even without adjusting for pace. I'd also like to add that Carmelo's competition at the forward spot is better than Nique's competition as well.

Carmelo came into the league at the golden era of perimeter players and also fought for all NBA teams against guys like Duncan, KG, Dirk, LeBron and KD in their primes.

Melo is not a guy who I consider as successful in the playoffs either, but his run in 2009 is far better than anything Nique did in the playoffs.

When it comes to SF's, Nique played in the GOLDEN ERA of SF's. So among SF's, Nique played in the better era than Melo. If u are talking the forward position in general (SF and PF), Melo played in the better era. The Golden Era of PF's was in the late 90's through the mid 2000s. And the position is still very strong today.

[Fire Colangelo]

When it comes to SF's, Nique played in the GOLDEN ERA of SF's. So among SF's, Nique played in the better era than Melo. If u are talking the forward position in general (SF and PF), they u can say Melo played in the better era. The Golden Era of PF's was in the late 90's through the mid 2000s. And the position is still very strong today.

The point I was trying to make was that in terms of all NBA selections, Melo had it a bit tougher because he was going up against a couple of ATG power forwards as well.

In terms of playing the game as a perimeter player, Melo also had it pretty tough early on in his career as he was battling it out with some of the best perimeter players in the history of the league on a nightly basis.

[bizil]

The point I was trying to make was that in terms of all NBA selections, Melo had it a bit tougher because he was going up against a couple of ATG power forwards as well.

In terms of playing the game as a perimeter player, Melo also had it pretty tough early on in his career as he was battling it out with some of the best perimeter players in the history of the league on a nightly basis.

I agree! When it comes to All Star Games and All NBA selections, they don't differentiate between SF and PF. When it comes to All NBA in particular, that makes the playing field VERY CROWDED!!

The Golden Era of SG's in my opinion was the early to mid 2000s. MANY of those guys played as swingmen actually. And would play SF too. So that would include Vince, T Mac, Kobe, Joe Johnson, and Pierce (who would eventually settle into SF). So when it comes to those wings (guys who would play as a swingman often), the talent was AWESOME when Melo came in the L. Let alone the other SG's like AI, Ray Ray, Wade, Ginobli, etc.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Top10 GOAT SF's (would've been different if only in terms of peaks though):

1. Bird
2. LeBron
3. Dr J
4. Hondo
5. Baylor
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8./9./10. Dominique/Pierce/Worthy

And Durant will eventually climb up through that list (if his career doesn't end soon)...

Then you got dudes like Arizin, Rodman (more of a SF at his best, at least on D), King, Mullin, English, Gus Johnson, Grant Hill, Dantley, Marques Johnson, Lou Hudson... and, obviously, Carmelo.

So... No...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Wilkins' skill always gets underrated, no different here :facepalm

Yea, he was a freak athlete but could also shoot, had a post-game, a great soft-touch from close-range, footwork, above average handles...

Which other great player returned from a ruptured Achilles still being great? Yea, that's right... People forget that though.
And while he still was a great athlete after the injury and at 33 years old (which is ridiculous when you think about it), dude came back scoring 30 PPG, shooting 38% from 3, 7 rebounds per game, over 3 assists, 47% from the field, 83% from the FT-line...

Nique was once 2nd in MVP voting above Magic, Kareem, Isiah, Barkley, English, Moncrief, Hakeem (peak Bird said that Wilkins deserved MVP over him)... Dude was once all-nba 1st, and he led some great teams in the most competitive era, the most stacked era for SF's...

[feyki]

Bird
Lebron
Erving
Hondo
Barry
Arizin
Pierce
Pippen
Durant
Wilkins

[StephHamann]

Discuss.

Would you take him over the likes of Dominique, Dantley, Worthy, Pierce, etc?

https://media.giphy.com/media/cuhFeODDrIYIU/giphy.gif

[bizil]

Wilkins' skill always gets underrated, no different here :facepalm

Yea, he was a freak athlete but could also shoot, had a post-game, a great soft-touch from close-range, footwork, above average handles...

Which other great player returned from a ruptured Achilles still being great? Yea, that's right... People forget that though.
And while he still was a great athlete after the injury and at 33 years old (which is ridiculous when you think about it), dude came back scoring 30 PPG, shooting 38% from 3, 7 rebounds per game, over 3 assists, 47% from the field, 83% from the FT-line...

Nique was once 2nd in MVP voting above Magic, Kareem, Isiah, Barkley, English, Moncrief, Hakeem (peak Bird said that Wilkins deserved MVP over him)... Dude was once all-nba 1st, and he led some great teams in the most competitive era, the most stacked era for SF's...

Awesome post! Nique is my favorite player of all time! His skill level does INDEED get underrated all time. When it comes to postups, scoring off offensive rebounds, slashing to the rack, transition baskets, and using the floaters, Nique was AS GOOD AS ANY SF EVER!! And as u stated, he was a VERY GOOD midrange shooter and free throw shooter.

Plus Nique has scored more points than ANY SF IN NBA HISTORY!! I don't know if many people realize that. If u score close to 27,000 points as a perimeter player, u aren't doing on all dunks!

And to top it off, Nique was a HUGE FORCE when making the game global. Everybody talks about MJ, Magic, Bird, Isiah, and Barkley. BUT Nique was HUGE for the NBA as well. His style of play as well as his legendary All Star exploits were MADE for getting casual fans to watch. Nique flat out redefined the SF spot with his brand of athletic ability. What Doc did for the glider domination at SF, Nique did for the two foot power vertical air domination at the SF.

[Fire Colangelo]

Top10 GOAT SF's (would've been different if only in terms of peaks though):

1. Bird
2. LeBron
3. Dr J
4. Hondo
5. Baylor
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8./9./10. Dominique/Pierce/Worthy

And Durant will eventually climb up through that list (if his career doesn't end soon)...

Then you got dudes like Arizin, Rodman (more of a SF at his best, at least on D), King, Mullin, English, Gus Johnson, Grant Hill, Dantley, Marques Johnson, Lou Hudson... and, obviously, Carmelo.

So... No...

So what makes Dominique top 10 SF above Melo?

Are we talking career? Peak? Accolades? Playoff success?

[Fire Colangelo]

https://media.giphy.com/media/cuhFeODDrIYIU/giphy.gif

Maybe provide an argument instead of an overused GIF?

[bizil]

So what makes Dominique top 10 SF above Melo?

Are we talking career? Peak? Accolades? Playoff success?

GOAT status, Melo has NO CASE over Nique as of now. Peak wise, I think Melo and Nique are around the same tier. Which is a superstar, true alpha dog, top ten player in the world, HOF kind of level.

But if I had to choose peak wise, I would take Nique over Melo. I just think Nique's brand of scoring kept the defense on its heels more. I consider them both ABSOLUTELY on the top tier of scoring SF dominance. I just think Nique's brand of scoring altered a defense more than Melo's. Of all the legendary freak athletic SF's, I think Nique had the MOST COMPLETE SCORING SKILLSET. Nique's scoring skillset was better than Bron, Dr. J, Baylor, Hawkins, G Hill, etc. I consider guys like T Mac and Vince swingmen or SG's. So I'm not counting them.

And if u take Nique off many of those Hawks teams, they don't make the playoffs AT ALL! Nique willed those teams to multiple 50 win seasons in the Golden Era NBA. And who could forget that legendary playoff duel between Nique and Bird!

[KevinNYC]

8. Havlicek (if you value rings, you could have him much higher up) and defense and basketball smarts.

5x NBA All-Defensive First Team, 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team

[Fire Colangelo]

GOAT status, Melo has NO CASE over Nique as of now. Peak wise, I think Melo and Nique are around the same tier. Which is a superstar, true alpha dog, top ten player in the world, HOF kind of level.

But if I had to choose peak wise, I would take Nique over Melo. I just think Nique's brand of scoring kept the defense on its heels more. I consider them both ABSOLUTELY on the top tier of scoring SF dominance. I just think Nique's brand of scoring altered a defense more than Melo's. Of all the legendary freak athletic SF's, I think Nique had the MOST COMPLETE SCORING SKILLSET. Nique's scoring skillset was better than Bron, Dr. J, Baylor, Hawkins, G Hill, etc. I consider guys like T Mac and Vince swingmen or SG's. So I'm not counting them.

And if u take Nique off many of those Hawks teams, they don't make the playoffs AT ALL! Nique willed those teams to multiple 50 win seasons in the Golden Era NBA. And who could forget that legendary playoff duel between Nique and Bird!

Would Melo not fall into that category as well? Dude could score from anywhere on the court.

Sure Nique probably had a higher historical significance due to his highflying play style, but how does that make him a better player? Iverson literally changed the culture of the NBA, does that make him a better player?

You take Melo off of those Nuggets and Knicks teams, and they'll struggle as well. That's just what happens when you take a star off its team. In terms of play, Nique was more athletic and Melo has more range. Their career accolades, regular season and playoff success are identical yet you have people putting Melo on the level of Gus fking Johnson. I don't really like Melo, but that's stupid.

What makes Paul Pierce a better player than Melo other than his team was able to get KG and Ray Allen?

What if Melo got drafted to the Pistons and won a couple of rings James Worthy style?

[SHAQisGOAT]

So what makes Dominique top 10 SF above Melo?

Are we talking career? Peak? Accolades? Playoff success?

Again, Wilkins was once 2nd in MVP voting over Magic, Kareem, Zeke, Barkley, English, Moses, Hakeem... Melo's best was 3rd and he never made top5 again, only being top10 2 times, while Nique was top5 3 times and top10 5 times.

Dominique was once all-nba 1st, Melo not once and he only was all-nba 2nd twice to Nique's 5 times.

Nique was top5 in the league in PER for 3 times, 7 times in the top10... Anthony was only twice in the top10 (once being 4th).
Wilkins was once 5th in WS, 2 times in the top10... Carmelo never was in the top10.

Wilkins led more successful teams in the regular-season (in a stacked Conference).

What they did in the Playoffs is pretty even... I don't think that Melo ever played QUITE as well in the post-season as Nique did in 1988 but he once went to the Conference Finals while Wilkins never did... Although Anthony had Billups, Kenyon, JR, Nene and Birdman on his squad that year, while Dominque almost led the Hawks to the CF playing alongside teammates not quite as good as Melo's, and they were one game away only gettin bounced because Bird went ham for one final time...

Considering everyting...

Peak as an overall player? Nique has a slight edge.

Competition faced (team + SF's + superstars)? Nique.

Longevity (so far)? Nique.

Neither won a ring but I feel like Wilkins was OVERALL more successful, even considering the impact towards the game stand-point.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Would Melo not fall into that category as well? Dude could score from anywhere on the court.

Sure Nique probably had a higher historical significance due to his highflying play style, but how does that make him a better player? Iverson literally changed the culture of the NBA, does that make him a better player?

You take Melo off of those Nuggets and Knicks teams, and they'll struggle as well. That's just what happens when you take a star off its team. In terms of play, Nique was more athletic and Melo has more range. Their career accolades, regular season and playoff success are identical yet you have people putting Melo on the level of Gus fking Johnson. I don't really like Melo, but that's stupid.

What makes Paul Pierce a better player than Melo other than his team was able to get KG and Ray Allen?

What if Melo got drafted to the Pistons and won a couple of rings James Worthy style?

Gus Johnson is one of the greatest SF's of all-time, same as Melo, not even specifying on who's above and such (I rank Anthony higher)...
Just to say that that Melo's falls in the same category as the GOAT SF's... Just not top10.

You act like Worthy was just along for the ride or something :rolleyes:
Yea, he was drafted into a dynasty but he was also a great player who immediately bought into LA's system, never stirred any shit and sacrificed personal stats/accolades... He won 3 rings (not just 1), was an integral part of one of the most successful dynasties, at one point or another was their leading scorer and/or 2nd best player, even won a FMVP - Magic deserved it (Kareem deserved in 1980) but Worthy was great nonetheless.

[Bigsmoke]

Melo surpassed Pierce? :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

Melo surpassed Pierce? :confusedshrug:


GOAT wise, Melo hasn't surpassed Pierce yet. I have Pierce as top 10 GOAT SF. Melo isn't there yet, but could be one day. Peak wise, u could go either way. But I think I would lean slightly Melo.

[SouBeachTalents]

The season before 'The Decision', Lebron, Wade and Bosh were 3 of the top 4 players in PER. There's a reason people flipped out when they decided to team up.

Players that miss the playoffs and don't even make All-NBA Third Team are not top 10 players in the league

[bizil]

Would Melo not fall into that category as well? Dude could score from anywhere on the court.

Sure Nique probably had a higher historical significance due to his highflying play style, but how does that make him a better player? Iverson literally changed the culture of the NBA, does that make him a better player?

You take Melo off of those Nuggets and Knicks teams, and they'll struggle as well. That's just what happens when you take a star off its team. In terms of play, Nique was more athletic and Melo has more range. Their career accolades, regular season and playoff success are identical yet you have people putting Melo on the level of Gus fking Johnson. I don't really like Melo, but that's stupid.

What makes Paul Pierce a better player than Melo other than his team was able to get KG and Ray Allen?

What if Melo got drafted to the Pistons and won a couple of rings James Worthy style?

Melo ISN'T a freak athletic SF. When I'm talking freak athletic, Im talking guys who defined freak athletic ability for their eras. Melo is a good athlete. But he's not FREAKISH like a Nique, Bron, or Dr. J. So among the freakish athletes who were great scorers at the SF, I think Nique had the best scoring skillset.

But if u are just TALKING scoring skillset in general, I think Melo has a better scoring skillset than Nique. And among SF's, I think Melo, Durant, Bird, Pierce, and Barry have the best scoring skillsets of all time.

[bizil]

Would Melo not fall into that category as well? Dude could score from anywhere on the court.

Sure Nique probably had a higher historical significance due to his highflying play style, but how does that make him a better player? Iverson literally changed the culture of the NBA, does that make him a better player?

You take Melo off of those Nuggets and Knicks teams, and they'll struggle as well. That's just what happens when you take a star off its team. In terms of play, Nique was more athletic and Melo has more range. Their career accolades, regular season and playoff success are identical yet you have people putting Melo on the level of Gus fking Johnson. I don't really like Melo, but that's stupid.

What makes Paul Pierce a better player than Melo other than his team was able to get KG and Ray Allen?

What if Melo got drafted to the Pistons and won a couple of rings James Worthy style?

Melo ISN'T a freak athletic SF. When I'm talking freak athletic, Im talking guys who defined freak athletic ability for their eras. Melo is a good athlete. But he's not FREAKISH like a Nique, Bron, of a Dr. J. So among the freakish athletes who were great scorers at the SF, I think Nique had the best scoring skillset.

But if u are just TALKING scoring skillset in general, I think Melo has a better scoring skillset than Nique. And among SF's, I think Melo, Durant, Bird, Pierce, and Barry have the best scoring skillsets of all time.

And when looking at GOAT status, I factor:

Solo accolades
Team accolades
Numbers
Peak Value
Longevity being great
Impact on the L (redefining your position, rules changes because of you, etc)

The main edge Nique WILL ALWAYS HAVE on Melo is REDEFINING your position. What Dr. J did for the gliding in game SF domination, Nique did for the vertical power in game SF domination. So that SURE AS HELL COUNTS when looking at GOAT status. As great as Melo is, he didn't redefine the SF position. But he did add some things.

But in the other areas for GOAT status, Melo is still building his resume. And who knows, he could be like Dirk, Stockton, Cap, MJ, Timmy, and Mailman and be an All Star kind of player into his deep 30's. And ACCUMULATE the resume to pass Nique by. But as of now, Nique has the CLEAR EDGE on Melo GOAT wise.

[Naero]

Ten Small Forwards off-hand that I opine have cemented themselves ahead of Carmelo Anthony on an all-time scale or are on the trajectory to do so (theoretically so; it depends on their health):

1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving (Lumping his ABA and NBA stints on the same resume, mind you)
4. Elgin Baylor
5. John Havlicek
6. Rick Barry
7. Scottie Pippen
8. Kevin Durant
9. Paul Pierce
10. Dominique Wilkins

My parameters are not just about conflating accolades and individual impact; I also put my GM-thinking cap on and evaluatingly think who I'd choose to start a franchise with when enumerating this list, and I can assure you this is only a sample size of players I'd take over Anthony.

As a part-time defender, volume scorer, a litany of playoff runs whereby he dramatically faltered from his regular-season level of play, and a lack of an all-around impact outside of rebounding, his flashy offensive repertoire and marketability as a New York Knick breed his popularity much more than his oft-net-negative impact does.

His legacy fits the same archetype as Alex English to me—one of the more prolific scorers of his generation; but when it's all said and done, he'll have lacked the all-around impact, accolades, and playoffs dominance to etch himself as truly memorable to the more ahistoric fans in postdating generations. His best days may already be well behind him, and the legacy he's amassed hasn't been resounding enough to have even drawn comparisons to the renowned ATGs.

[DMAVS41]

No...

[bizil]

[QUOTE=Naero]Ten Small Forwards off-hand that I opine have cemented themselves ahead of Carmelo Anthony on an all-time scale or are on the trajectory to do so (theoretically so; it depends on their health):

1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving (Lumping his ABA and NBA stints on the same resume, mind you)
4. Elgin Baylor
5. John Havlicek
6. Rick Barry
7. Scottie Pippen
8. Kevin Durant
9. Paul Pierce
10. Dominique Wilkins

My parameters are not just about conflating accolades and individual impact; I also put my GM-thinking cap on and evaluatingly think who I'd choose to start a franchise with when enumerating this list, and I can assure you this is only a sample size of players I'd take over Anthony.

As a part-time defender, volume scorer, a litany of playoff runs whereby he dramatically faltered from his regular-season level of play, and a lack of an all-around impact outside of rebounding, his flashy offensive repertoire and marketability as a New York Knick breed his popularity much more than his oft-net-negative impact does.

His legacy fits the same archetype as Alex English to me

[dhsilv]

Would Melo not fall into that category as well? Dude could score from anywhere on the court.

Sure Nique probably had a higher historical significance due to his highflying play style, but how does that make him a better player? Iverson literally changed the culture of the NBA, does that make him a better player?

You take Melo off of those Nuggets and Knicks teams, and they'll struggle as well. That's just what happens when you take a star off its team. In terms of play, Nique was more athletic and Melo has more range. Their career accolades, regular season and playoff success are identical yet you have people putting Melo on the level of Gus fking Johnson. I don't really like Melo, but that's stupid.

What makes Paul Pierce a better player than Melo other than his team was able to get KG and Ray Allen?

What if Melo got drafted to the Pistons and won a couple of rings James Worthy style?

I honestly don't think Melo could have won rings "James Worthy" style. What makes you think he could do it? He's has one decent playoff run and by many measures he wasn't even the 3rd most important player on that team.

[dhsilv]

You make some good points! But I disagree with your analysis of Alex English. In seasons back in the 80's, English would get 28 points, 5 assists, and 7 rebounds. Those are very good all around numbers for a SF! So while English wasn't the all around player Bird was in the 80's, he was on that next tier with Dr. J as being a VERY GOOD all around player.

You do need to point out that's weren't a normal 28 5 and 7. That was done on an all time era adjusted high pace team.

I'm not sure why I grabbed Piece but for a quick compare, Pierces best year was likely 2006.

PER 100 35.7 6.3 ast 8.9 trb

English 83

Per 100 33.3 5.7 ast 8.6 trb

I'm not sure I think of Pierce as a peak guy as to why he's great. He's a solid defender and great leader. Add in he's come up huge in the playoffs. But as a guy I don't of as a monster stat line guy, his stats peak to peak are better. TS% also favor piece here though I'd guess most assumed that given the era adjustments.

[bizil]

You do need to point out that's weren't a normal 28 5 and 7. That was done on an all time era adjusted high pace team.

I'm not sure why I grabbed Piece but for a quick compare, Pierces best year was likely 2006.

PER 100 35.7 6.3 ast 8.9 trb

English 83

Per 100 33.3 5.7 ast 8.6 trb

I'm not sure I think of Pierce as a peak guy as to why he's great. He's a solid defender and great leader. Add in he's come up huge in the playoffs. But as a guy I don't of as a monster stat line guy, his stats peak to peak are better. TS% also favor piece here though I'd guess most assumed that given the era adjustments.

But those were STILL HIS NUMBERS!!! And they were impressive numbers!! MOST SF's who played in that Denver system wouldn't get those numbers. THE ONLY guys who would get those numbers are HOF kind of guys like English. English's assist numbers were a very good clip for a SF. WHICH MEANS he was looking to pass the rock in the high paced Denver system. He could have JUST BEEN LOOKING TO SCORE and not pass at all. And THAT'S the point I was making. THE POINT is to get the most out of your ability IN A GIVEN SYSTEM!!! And English did that!!

[Fire Colangelo]

I honestly don't think Melo could have won rings "James Worthy" style. What makes you think he could do it? He's has one decent playoff run and by many measures he wasn't even the 3rd most important player on that team.

And it was still better than any of Nique's playoff runs.....

By James Worthy style I meant getting drafted to a really good team from the beginning. You don't see Detriot winning a couple more rings if they drafted Melo instead of Darko? Detriot struggled with their offense from 04-08 and Melo definitely could've helped them in that regard.

[bizil]

I honestly don't think Melo could have won rings "James Worthy" style. What makes you think he could do it? He's has one decent playoff run and by many measures he wasn't even the 3rd most important player on that team.

And it was still better than any of Nique's playoff runs.....

By James Worthy style I meant getting drafted to a really good team from the beginning. You don't see Detriot winning a couple more rings if they drafted Melo instead of Darko? Detriot struggled with their offense from 04-08 and Melo definitely could've helped them in that regard.

No doubt Melo on Detroit could mean a couple more rings! And in my opinion, it would have been a great fit! All that team was missing was a legit alpha dog kind of scorer. But at the same time, they had three VERY GOOD scorers in Billups, Rip, and Sheed. But THE KEY would be Detroit's defense! Melo's shortcomings on defense would be covered TREMEDOUSLY on that squad.

[CurryOverLebron]

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/05/nope-reaction-gif.gif

[dhsilv]

I honestly don't think Melo could have won rings "James Worthy" style. What makes you think he could do it? He's has one decent playoff run and by many measures he wasn't even the 3rd most important player on that team.

And it was still better than any of Nique's playoff runs.....

By James Worthy style I meant getting drafted to a really good team from the beginning. You don't see Detriot winning a couple more rings if they drafted Melo instead of Darko? Detriot struggled with their offense from 04-08 and Melo definitely could've helped them in that regard.

See that's the thing. The pistons lose a LOT having Melo on the court instead of Prince. I don't think they beat the lakers with melo over prince on the court. Could he have developed later? Sure but I'm not sure he'd have been a huge upgrade in that system over prince. They'd have needed to really change what they were doing. A lot of what made Rip effective as a player was passing around him. Melo wasn't really a great passer especially early on.

As for the playoff run, Melo had guys as good if not better than him on that team. When did atlanta ever have someone like that? Even Jordan needed some help.

[Fire Colangelo]

[QUOTE=Fire Colangelo]

See that's the thing. The pistons lose a LOT having Melo on the court instead of Prince. I don't think they beat the lakers with melo over prince on the court. Could he have developed later? Sure but I'm not sure he'd have been a huge upgrade in that system over prince. They'd have needed to really change what they were doing. A lot of what made Rip effective as a player was passing around him. Melo wasn't really a great passer especially early on.

As for the playoff run, Melo had guys as good if not better than him on that team. When did atlanta ever have someone like that? Even Jordan needed some help.

I think Melo would've fit in fine under a no nonsense coach like Larry Brown. We're talking about a coach that was able to hide Iverson of all people on defense for a number of years.

Melo was injured for a little bit in 09, but he was absolutely the best player on the team in the playoffs. Idk where you're coming from with this "not even the third best player" stuff.

[L.Kizzle]

How many times has Melo been just the 3rd best SF in the league, let alone the 2nd best? But he top ten all-time doe! No disrespect.

:biggums:

[Fire Colangelo]

How many times has Melo been just the 3rd best SF in the league, let alone the 2nd best? But he top ten doe! No disrespect.

:biggums:

Pretty much his whole career?

[L.Kizzle]

Pretty much his whole career?
Durant has been better than him since his 3rd season (maybe even 2nd.) And then Paul Pierce before then. He was the 2nd best SF for at most two seasons.

[KirbyPls]

Players that miss the playoffs and don't even make All-NBA Third Team are not top 10 players in the league

It's funny, since PER says Lebron is a top-3/4 GOAT ever (regular season and playoffs), but I doubt bdreason has Lebron in the top-10 all-time. But when it comes to Bosh? Top-10 player Doe! :lol

[Fire Colangelo]

Durant has been better than him since his 3rd season (maybe even 2nd.) And then Paul Pierce before then. He was the 2nd best SF for at most two seasons.

Melo came into the league when Pierce was in his prime, but off the top of my head I Melo was probably better in 2006 and 2007. 2008 and 2009 is arguable, Pierce had the better team but Melo was better individually.

No shame being 3rd to LeBron and Durant though.

[L.Kizzle]

Melo came into the league when Pierce was in his prime, but off the top of my head I Melo was probably better in 2006 and 2007. 2008 and 2009 is arguable, Pierce had the better team but Melo was better individually.

No shame being 3rd to LeBron and Durant though.
On average, the 3rd best SF in a 12 year span doesn't earn you a top 10 All-Time spot.

[Fire Colangelo]

On average, the 3rd best SF in a 12 year span doesn't earn you a top 10 All-Time spot.

Coming into the league at the same time as LeBron will do that to you...

I mean... when was James Worthy a top 2 SF?

[dhsilv]

[QUOTE=dhsilv]

I think Melo would've fit in fine under a no nonsense coach like Larry Brown. We're talking about a coach that was able to hide Iverson of all people on defense for a number of years.

Melo was injured for a little bit in 09, but he was absolutely the best player on the team in the playoffs. Idk where you're coming from with this "not even the third best player" stuff.

Chauncey Billups had better numbers but more importantly was the leader of that team. He was far more important and valuable that year.

[dhsilv]

Melo came into the league when Pierce was in his prime, but off the top of my head I Melo was probably better in 2006 and 2007. 2008 and 2009 is arguable, Pierce had the better team but Melo was better individually.

No shame being 3rd to LeBron and Durant though.

2006 Marion was better than Melo though, so that's another year not top 3.

[Fire Colangelo]

[QUOTE=Fire Colangelo]

Chauncey Billups had better numbers but more importantly was the leader of that team. He was far more important and valuable that year.

In the playoffs?

Seriously?

Like I said... Melo had a down year in 2009, but he was by far the best player in the playoffs.

[L.Kizzle]

Coming into the league at the same time as LeBron will do that to you...

I mean... when was James Worthy a top 2 SF?
Maybe once, though the talent pool at SF was deeper in Jame Worthy's day.

How many HallofFamers is Melo competing against, LeBron, Pierce and Durant.

Worthy was Doc J, Bird, Nique, King, Dantley, English, Mullin and Pippen

[dhsilv]

[QUOTE=dhsilv]

In the playoffs?

Seriously?

Like I said... Melo had a down year in 2009, but he was by far the best player in the playoffs.

Yeah the playoffs. Where He had a lower BPM, WS/48, VORP, had a lower TS% and as always played poor defensively. Are you really trying to argue that he was better than Billiips?

I mean I'll admit he layed a couple eggs against the lakers, but that lakers team was defensively brutally tough and Melo wasn't exactly great there either. But overall he was the better player.

[Fire Colangelo]

Yeah the playoffs. Where He had a lower BPM, WS/48, VORP, had a lower TS% and as always played poor defensively. Are you really trying to argue that he was better than Billiips?

I mean I'll admit he layed a couple eggs against the lakers, but that lakers team was defensively brutally tough and Melo wasn't exactly great there either. But overall he was the better player.

Take those advanced stats, and look at Nique's playoffs.

I guarantee you he did not have the highest PER, WS/48, TS%, etc.

[dhsilv]

Take those advanced stats, and look at Nique's playoffs.

I guarantee you he did not have the highest PER, WS/48, TS%, etc.

You're correct. Though we don't have a playoff run long enough imo to really get a feel for some of his runs. But if you're taking Doc Rivers of Bilups....

[1987_Lakers]

Maybe once, though the talent pool at SF was deeper in Jame Worthy's day.

How many HallofFamers is Melo competing against, LeBron, Pierce and Durant.

Worthy was Doc J, Bird, Nique, King, Dantley, English, Mullin and Pippen

Come on, when Worthy hit his peak in the late 80's guys like Dr. J, King, & Dantley were already done as players and Pippen wasn't developed yet.

[Fire Colangelo]

You're correct. Though we don't have a playoff run long enough imo to really get a feel for some of his runs. But if you're taking Doc Rivers of Bilups....

Well there was also Moses iirc...

[L.Kizzle]

Come on, when Worthy hit his peak in the late 80's guys like Dr. J, King, & Dantley were already done as players and Pippen wasn't developed yet.
Worthy played with or against all of those guys when they were All-Stars.

Worthy played with or against these Hall of Famers in All-Star games. Worthy made 7 himself.

Wilkins - 6
Bird - 5
English - 3
Mullin - 3
Pippen - 2
Erving - 2
Dantley - 1
King - 1

[dhsilv]

Well there was also Moses iirc...

That's fair I suppose. I was pretty darn young back then and well atlanta games weren't on much but I've always been under the impression moses wasn't much of a defender by that point in his career. Not really a good fit.

[Dragonyeuw]

Not on my list:

1. Bird/Lebron
1. Lebron/Bird
3. Baylor
4. Dr. J
5. Pippen
6. Barry
7. Dominique
8. Havlicek (if you value rings, you could have him much higher up)
9. Dantley
10. Worthy

Durant however... dont know where to put him / who to take out down there, probably Dantley or something, he is definitely top 10.

I personally think Durant warrants top ten. His career is still unfolding but I look at what he's accomplished in a relatively short time frame. An MVP, 4 scoring titles and his career scoring numbers, for me, edge him over Worthy's third banana rings and Dantley, while a great scorer, can't see how anyone could say he's better. Frankly in terms of peak, after Lebron and Bird he's got a great argument for 3rd. 2014 was an all-time great level season, and even the years leading up to that were some of the better seasons for a perimeter player in recent memory.

[pastis]

durant already has an mvp and like 6 all-nba first teams selections. he could stop playing right now and would already be top 3-5.

[bizil]

Durant is an interesting case to be a top 10 GOAT SF. My GOAT criteria uses solo accolades, team accolades, longevity being great, peak value, numbers, and impact on the game. So even though he's still young in his career, he ALREADY has nearly 16,000 points. While missing pretty much two seasons due to injury. If he played the majority of those two missing seasons, he would ALREADY BE damn close to 20,000 points!! At age 27!! And KD ALSO revolutionized the SF position as well. So I could buy the argument that KD is a top 10 GOAT SF ALREADY!! There has NEVER been a 6'10 SF with his combination of shooting and ball handling ability.

[feyki]

durant already has an mvp and like 6 all-nba first teams selections. he could stop playing right now and would already be top 3-5.

Bird
Lebron
Erving
Hondo
Rick Barry ,

Durant isn't in the top 5 goat sf right now .