76ers put NBA in impossible position

[Mrofir]

NBA no doubt wants\needs this multiseason tank to end.

Here is the catch 22. If they somehow turn into title contenders, the strategy will have worked. That would be a disaster and impact the integrity of the league. Other teams would follow suit.

If the strategy totally fails, it's a disaster. 76ers will be a joke for years, and a drag on the league both from a revenue and integrity standpoint.

The only hope is that the 76ers turn into a a mediocre borderline playoff team as soon as possible, like next season. They would STILL be a revenue drag in this scenario, but at least the basic competitive integrity is restored. No idea how that happens. This is a very fine needle to thread and I would say a unique situation in league history. Quite a bit on the line for Adam Silver imo.

[Fallen Angel]

How is that impacting the league's integrity? They did a complete rebuild through the draft. They aren't doing anything shameful, of course a team full of 24 year olds and younger will lose a lot of games. The Embiid injury really messed up the trajectory of their rebuild, he was a franchise center that is getting held back with a foot injury. The Sixers had/have their franchise guy, it's not about getting him healthy.

If they still aren't good in the next 2-3 years then the Sixers will hire another GM and go through a different rebuilding phase. Almost every team in the league is losing money, so the league isn't losing their mind over the Sixers.

It's not easy doing a full rebuild the way the Sixers did started back in 2013. Everything fell off of line with Embiid's injury. If he had progressed the way he was supposed to then you'd probably have MCW/Noel/Embiid as the core of the Sixers for the next few years.

[outbreak]

To be fair they've had injuries.

I'm interested to see how it pans out, the idea seems good on paper but when you add in real humans as the players I'm not sure they will be happy being in this situation and I'm not sure they'll have the right attitudes and off court culture needed to easily turn in to a winning team. I could see some bolting first chance they get, I'm sure they talk to other players and hear about the way other teams are run and trying to win and it would make them bitter towards philly.

[Spurs m8]

They should try and draft Boban, would at least get some ticket sales

[gasolina]

I'm interested to see if the NBA by-laws has something similar to Board of Trustee members where they can't do things that could be found detrimental to the league as a whole.

While it's impossible to prove today that this mega tank is bad for the league, it's also illogical to not admit it's had adverse effects already.

A team can't just throw a game just for kicks. What the 6ers are doing is throwing away full seasons. Now does the end justify the means? TBH I don't think it should matter.

[Wally450]

How is that impacting the league's integrity? They did a complete rebuild through the draft. They aren't doing anything shameful, of course a team full of 24 year olds and younger will lose a lot of games. The Embiid injury really messed up the trajectory of their rebuild, he was a franchise center that is getting held back with a foot injury. The Sixers had/have their franchise guy, it's not about getting him healthy.

If they still aren't good in the next 2-3 years then the Sixers will hire another GM and go through a different rebuilding phase. Almost every team in the league is losing money, so the league isn't losing their mind over the Sixers.

It's not easy doing a full rebuild the way the Sixers did started back in 2013. Everything fell off of line with Embiid's injury. If he had progressed the way he was supposed to then you'd probably have MCW/Noel/Embiid as the core of the Sixers for the next few years.

Great post. :cheers:

[FKAri]

How is that impacting the league's integrity? They did a complete rebuild through the draft. They aren't doing anything shameful, of course a team full of 24 year olds and younger will lose a lot of games. The Embiid injury really messed up the trajectory of their rebuild, he was a franchise center that is getting held back with a foot injury. The Sixers had/have their franchise guy, it's not about getting him healthy.

If they still aren't good in the next 2-3 years then the Sixers will hire another GM and go through a different rebuilding phase. Almost every team in the league is losing money, so the league isn't losing their mind over the Sixers.

It's not easy doing a full rebuild the way the Sixers did started back in 2013. Everything fell off of line with Embiid's injury. If he had progressed the way he was supposed to then you'd probably have MCW/Noel/Embiid as the core of the Sixers for the next few years.

It's worse than you think

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14317233/nba-owners-lobbied-league-office-philadelphia-76ers-changes

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/12/8/9870742/philadelphia-76ers-jerry-colangelo-nba-owners-adam-silver

[90sgoat]

Almost every team in the league is losing money

Is this true?

I thought the reason for the ridicolous max contracts were that the teams are swimming in money.

Maybe stop paying the likes of Tristan Thompson 88 million then.

[Clifton]

It seems pretty clear that this is not going to work.

There are two ways to win: a transcendent player, and a quality team and organization. Neither thing is going to happen to a team that is at the bottom of the league for years on end, on purpose. You build up bad vibes that way and powerful free agents don't want any part of you, and quality role players go to high-functioning teams that are fun to play on.

Golden State, Atlanta, Indiana, all the teams in vogue right now, none of them tanked. Spurs did -- over 15 years ago -- but no one remembers that now. Now they are a team that wins over 50 games every year even if D-league players are starting at the 5 or the 2 and they have perhaps the worst starting PG in the league. Oh: And they rest their starters a dozen games a year. Still win. Why? Chemistry... great coach... quality organization. Attracts fresh recruits like Aldridge to keep it all going.

Sixers are going about this the wrong way, and history will prove that and shove it back in their faces for the next decade. You. Do. Not. Win. This. Way.

[el gringos]

Aren't they tanking another season after this one?


At least their plan is to someday get really good. The worst are the teams that try for the middle


There's absolutely nothing wrong with what philly is doing. They just picked some injured guys and maybe not the bpa with some picks.


It would be crazy to see them actually come up with 3-4 top 20 picks. They deserve not top 2 pick though. I'd love to see them get lakers pick and their own at 4&5

[FireDavidKahn]

Is this true?

I thought the reason for the ridicolous max contracts were that the teams are swimming in money.

Maybe stop paying the likes of Tristan Thompson 88 million then.
Actually it is the complete opposite. Only 9 teams lost money in 2014 and that doesn't include the 24 billion dollar deal over 9 years for nationally televised games that is split among teams.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/10/8/6945627/nba-team-profits-cap-maximum-salary

[90sgoat]

Spurs did -- over 15 years ago -- but no one remembers that now.

Did they really tank? David Robinson had a season ending injury and they didn't force him back. Sean Elliot was injured, but can't remember the specifics. They basically lost the two best players of the team to injuries.

They at least had the good sense to bring back 37 year old Nique from Europe to at least have some reason to watch them.

Couldn't Sixers have tried to trade for Kobe? Or have MJ come back and play 10 minutes a game. Give Allen Iverson a last hurrah? Hire some Chinese 8 footers? First female player?

Sixers went about tanking the wrong way.

[oarabbus]

For those of you with real jobs: would you hire Sam Hinkie to be President or C-Level at your work? :oldlol:

[dhsilv]

For those of you with real jobs: would you hire Sam Hinkie to be President or C-Level at your work? :oldlol:

I don't know the guy that well. He's if I recall a former investment banker who's moved up in professional sports. His resume is pretty darn good. And he's doing exactly what he told his boss he's do. So ummm I guess if I didn't have anything but resume and the approval is his current boss, why not?

Or have you never worked in a start up environment where you intentionally lose millions a year?

[90sgoat]

Or have you never worked in a start up environment where you intentionally lose millions a year?

Lol no, have you?

Newsflash, those intentionally losing startups fail all the time. The only reason VC people keep posting money in them is because the eventual payoff of a Facebook or Google outweighs 100 losses.

Does winning an NBA championship once and 9 tank seasons in 10 years outweight having a mediocre team for 10 seasons? I don't think so, the math is not the same.

[kshutts1]

My friend made an interesting connection the other day...

The league fined the Spurs for not playing their stars in a nationally televised game against the Heat a few years ago. The official reason was that the Spurs didn't give proper notice. But of course everyone thinks it was because it put out a bad product and made the league look bad.

How is what the Sixers are doing better than sitting stars for one game? How do those situations differ that greatly?

[DMAVS41]

Don't understand it from a competitive standpoint...the Sixers have hardly done anything many other teams haven't done...on purpose or not seems to be irrelevant

The Magic have been as bad or worse than the Sixers the 3 past season going into this one

I mean...they are really only 2 full years into this process and they've won pretty much every trade they've made so far

Change the rules...or stop singling out the Sixers...when other teams have been awful as well

[warriorfan]

Don't understand it from a competitive standpoint...the Sixers have hardly done anything many other teams haven't done...on purpose or not seems to be irrelevant

The Magic have been as bad or worse than the Sixers the 3 past season going into this one

I mean...they are really only 2 full years into this process and they've won pretty much every trade they've made so far

Change the rules...or stop singling out the Sixers...when other teams have been awful as well

I don't think a team has taken it to the extreme that the Sixers have though.

[FireDavidKahn]

Don't understand it from a competitive standpoint...the Sixers have hardly done anything many other teams haven't done...on purpose or not seems to be irrelevant

The Magic have been as bad or worse than the Sixers the 3 past season going into this one

I mean...they are really only 2 full years into this process and they've won pretty much every trade they've made so far

Change the rules...or stop singling out the Sixers...when other teams have been awful as well
"Won every trade" and yet they're about to set the record for most losses in a three year plan. For crying out loud, is their plan seriously a 5-7 year rebuild:oldlol:

[T_L_P]

"Won every trade" and yet they're about to set the record for most losses in a three year plan. For crying out loud, is their plan seriously a 5-7 year rebuild:oldlol:

Yes, and they said it would be from the outset - which is why I don't like the owners/league office meddling in their affairs.

[FireDavidKahn]

Yes, and they said it would be from the outset - which is why I don't like the owners/league office meddling in their affairs.
:roll: I'm actually willing to bet right now that they'll also set the record for most losses in a four year span after next year as well.

Trash organization right now.

[T_L_P]

:roll: I'm actually willing to bet right now that they'll also set the record for most losses in a four year span after next year as well.

Trash organization right now.

They might. But they could start trying next season if Embiid is healthy and if they manage to sign one really good player. We know they'll have a ton of picks this year so 30 wins next season isn't off the cards. Then the year after that they could start seriously competing.

I honestly don't see the problem. The Sixers are taking a calculated risk - it's better than what the Denver's of the NBA are doing. The only real issue is the team losing money right now because they suck, and ticket prices being so low that other teams make no money from playing them.

But in basketball terms, it should be up to ownership/the FO to build their team how they want. The Nets gave up their future to compete as soon as possible and it failed miserably, and I don't see Silver appointing someone with no connection to the franchise as their Head of Basketball Ops. :confusedshrug:

[BasedTom]

the problem is that their plan has them tanking for half a decade with no end in sight. At the very least throw in a respectable veteran in the lineup like how Minnesota has KG.

tanking is much less of a problem if its after your star player goes down, the draft happens to be loaded one year, or at the midway point you're clearly not going to make the playoffs. Philly didn't invent this.

[outbreak]

Don't understand it from a competitive standpoint...the Sixers have hardly done anything many other teams haven't done...on purpose or not seems to be irrelevant

The Magic have been as bad or worse than the Sixers the 3 past season going into this one

I mean...they are really only 2 full years into this process and they've won pretty much every trade they've made so far

Change the rules...or stop singling out the Sixers...when other teams have been awful as well

The magic had one really bad season after Dwight left but the next couple they did the best with what they had at the time and actually signed real basketball players instead of signing d-league players. They were drafting players who would actually play basketball and were active in trades too. They tanked sure but NO ONE has tanked the way philly have before. At times they were actually decent to watch as well with some players who were entertaining even though they were losing.

[longtime lurker]

NBA no doubt wants\needs this multiseason tank to end.

Here is the catch 22. If they somehow turn into title contenders, the strategy will have worked. That would be a disaster and impact the integrity of the league. Other teams would follow suit.

If the strategy totally fails, it's a disaster. 76ers will be a joke for years, and a drag on the league both from a revenue and integrity standpoint.

The only hope is that the 76ers turn into a a mediocre borderline playoff team as soon as possible, like next season. They would STILL be a revenue drag in this scenario, but at least the basic competitive integrity is restored. No idea how that happens. This is a very fine needle to thread and I would say a unique situation in league history. Quite a bit on the line for Adam Silver imo.

There is no catch 22. The Sixers are freaking horrible and they've managed to taint the whole culture of the team. Their two best bigs can't play together and they could potentially have 5 first round picks that play the same two positions. their #1 pick this year is either depressed from all the losing or actively trying to get himself traded through self sabotage. Newsflash teams with a poisonous atmosphere, low team morale and complete lack of will to win from management don't all of a sudden turn into competitors overnight.

[Mrofir]

There is no catch 22. The Sixers are freaking horrible and they've managed to taint the whole culture of the team. Their two best bigs can't play together and they could potentially have 5 first round picks that play the same two positions. their #1 pick this year is either depressed from all the losing or actively trying to get himself traded through self sabotage. Newsflash teams with a poisonous atmosphere, low team morale and complete lack of will to win from management don't all of a sudden turn into competitors overnight.


The reason I created this thread is because I agree with you.

[dhsilv]

"Won every trade" and yet they're about to set the record for most losses in a three year plan. For crying out loud, is their plan seriously a 5-7 year rebuild:oldlol:

Wouldn't that be one of the fastest rebuilds ever? Seriously outside of just landing a super star out of nowhere, if you're not LA, Boston, or the spurs who has been able to rebuild any faster?

The wolves have missed the playoffs for a decade. Do you remember the clippers before they landed blake and chirs paul? What about the mavs before cuban? What about the bob cats?

This is the first year the 76ers look like the actual worst team in the nba. They have a wealth of talent/picks coming over next year.

[dhsilv]

Lol no, have you?

Newsflash, those intentionally losing startups fail all the time. The only reason VC people keep posting money in them is because the eventual payoff of a Facebook or Google outweighs 100 losses.

Does winning an NBA championship once and 9 tank seasons in 10 years outweight having a mediocre team for 10 seasons? I don't think so, the math is not the same.

Well yes I have. The model is simple. You spend money on growth once you prove you have a viable product. Anyone trying to enter into a competitive space has a risk of failure.

The difference here is that the 76er's build has multiple layers of long term planning built in. They have stock piling second round picks as late as 2022 if memory services me. That kind of long term planning is going to allow them to sustain success once they start to win. Imagine a free agent looking to make a move and they have the GM/owner explaining how the team will have 5-10 more draft picks than anyone else over their 4-5 year contract. How they have even with say signing this guy to a max deal the flexibility to add a max player when on comes available and how they have a young core of players.

Players want to win and philly is build a long term foundation that will give them an edge over most other teams down the road.

Lets also not forget how bad from a long term team building perspective philly was. They had traded away their first round picks for the first two years of Hinkie so he literally had a few decent guys who got them to the playoffs on the wrong end of their careers and not draft picks coming their way in the short term. He didn't even have cap flexibility to chase a free agent. He really only had one option if they were going to have a chance at competing for a title in the next 10 years and that was to liquidate their assets and start over by trying to maximize value a few years into the future. His approach could have been different if he'd had actual first round picks, young talent, or cap space. He didn't have any of that.

And I keep saying but I'll say it again. This year if they keep up this pace will be their first time under him having the worst record in the nba. They have NOT been putting out the worst product in the league. They have also gone to extremes to assure that the players they have drafted get proper medical treatment for their injuries. You can call that tanking, but the reality is they took a risk on two bigs with huge upsides and it really shows they value these guys (even if it's just a numbers game for them) in their willingness to let them rest. I assure you philly would like to charge more for tickets and generate more revenue. Their ownership are the founders of the freaking Apollo group for crying out loud.

[oh the horror]

People are playing coy and defending the Sixers here but admit it, this is the most extreme example of a team going completely into the toilet you've ever seen. Someone here said their rebuilding plan is a 5-7 year plan? That's a long ass time to try to rebuild. And even then you're banking on players developing into big contributors AND no injuries AND the effort it'll take to dig themselves out of this horrible funk they've created around that organization.



I'm sorry but you don't actively turn your organization into a joke and expect people to sit and watch a team go 1-20 or whatever the number is. I mean Christ the lakers are terrible but they're at least trying to put players out there that can play ball.



As I said before even their method for obtaining players leaves me confused.

[Mrofir]

this is the most extreme example of a team going completely into the toilet you've ever seen.


Fairly simple and exactly correct

[dhsilv]

People are playing coy and defending the Sixers here but admit it, this is the most extreme example of a team going completely into the toilet you've ever seen. Someone here said their rebuilding plan is a 5-7 year plan? That's a long ass time to try to rebuild. And even then you're banking on players developing into big contributors AND no injuries AND the effort it'll take to dig themselves out of this horrible funk they've created around that organization.



I'm sorry but you don't actively turn your organization into a joke and expect people to sit and watch a team go 1-20 or whatever the number is. I mean Christ the lakers are terrible but they're at least trying to put players out there that can play ball.



As I said before even their method for obtaining players leaves me confused.

They have attempted to draft the best talent available/trade for it. As a result they've taken two big men in the draft who were injured and they took one of the top prospects in europe knowing he would not being available the next year.

Is doing this tanking?

Is trading a guy like MCW for what is likely a top 10 pick in this coming year's draft, tanking?

All of these decisions are why the sixers are not better this year, but none of those choices are bad basketball decisions historically.

[Jameerthefear]

How is that impacting the league's integrity? They did a complete rebuild through the draft. They aren't doing anything shameful, of course a team full of 24 year olds and younger will lose a lot of games. The Embiid injury really messed up the trajectory of their rebuild, he was a franchise center that is getting held back with a foot injury. The Sixers had/have their franchise guy, it's not about getting him healthy.

If they still aren't good in the next 2-3 years then the Sixers will hire another GM and go through a different rebuilding phase. Almost every team in the league is losing money, so the league isn't losing their mind over the Sixers.

It's not easy doing a full rebuild the way the Sixers did started back in 2013. Everything fell off of line with Embiid's injury. If he had progressed the way he was supposed to then you'd probably have MCW/Noel/Embiid as the core of the Sixers for the next few years.
why would people give them a pass for the embiid injury? everyone knew going in he was injury prone, hell it was known he was going to miss his entire rookie year the day he was drafted IIRC

[Jameerthefear]

and i'll tell you what, if you're mailing it in on game 1 you sure as hell better make the right pick. and the 6ers... didn't. (mcw over giannis, oak over porz)

[Mrofir]

My prediction is the 76ers are outsmarting themselves. Eventually they'll trade away certain assets that are redundant. And I predict those players will become much more productive when they are placed in functional organizations. They will have little leverage in those trade negotiations because the awfulness of the team will statistically affect the trade value of certain players. And even less leverage as Hinkie's seat heats up and he rushes to field a competitive team when he senses his time is up. I guess from that perspective it's interesting for a fan to watch. I just wouldn't want to actually go to their games.

[dhsilv]

My prediction is the 76ers are outsmarting themselves. Eventually they'll trade away certain assets that are redundant. And I predict those players will become much more productive when they are placed in functional organizations. They will have little leverage in those trade negotiations because the awfulness of the team will statistically affect the trade value of certain players. And even less leverage as Hinkie's seat heats up and he rushes to field a competitive team when he senses his time is up. I guess from that perspective it's interesting for a fan to watch. I just wouldn't want to actually go to their games.

They've gotten good value out of trading players. A big part of their offensive system is designed around making players look more valuable than they are. A lot of 3's...and things like that.

It might hurt them with bigs, but is anyone not pretty high on their bigs actually playing? I mean both can easily be trade chips as part of a bigger deal.

The 76ers just have to actually finally hit a homerun in the draft. So far they're not really getting the talent they need.

[FKAri]

Embiid might pull a Curry you never know. People said Curry was injury prone too cuz he'd keep having ankle issues. The problem is Embiid is a big and their injury concerns are more career threatening. I hope to see him play well. He is a great talent.

[oarabbus]

Embiid might pull a Curry you never know. People said Curry was injury prone too cuz he'd keep having ankle issues. The problem is Embiid is a big and their injury concerns are more career threatening. I hope to see him play well. He is a great talent.

Not even remotely the same. Steph played 80 games his rookie season. 74 after that. He then had his one injured season playing 26 games, but his trajectory is nowhere near Embiid.

Curry has been one of the hardest workers in the league.

Embiid is taking it easy and not even trying to rehab: http://www.si.com/thecauldron/2015/10/16/philadelphia-76ers-sam-hinkie-joel-embiid-brett-brown-process

[Mrofir]

They've gotten good value out of trading players. A big part of their offensive system is designed around making players look more valuable than they are. A lot of 3's...and things like that.

It might hurt them with bigs, but is anyone not pretty high on their bigs actually playing? I mean both can easily be trade chips as part of a bigger deal.

The 76ers just have to actually finally hit a homerun in the draft. So far they're not really getting the talent they need.


Solid post, but I will believe the value is there when the 76ers are able to post a win total somewhere north of 1-2 by Christmas.

Id also say that the fact that their offensive system is designed around making players look more valuable than they are... if true... is simply more evidence that this is flat out terrible for the nba.

[Nick Young]

Embiid is the next Oden, book it.

[SwishSquared]

This is gonna be a long post...

The problem was they were too open with their tanking. They blatantly said they were in asset accumulation mode and punted on contacting mid-level FAs- they only want to meet with stars and scrap heap guys. Teams have tanked for years, but Philly made it painfully obvious to the rest of the league. They couldn't hide behind the "incompetence" tag- teams knew they won every trade in retrospect and only made long-term moves. I think this strategy is still viable, but no ownership group has been willing to absorb losses like this to maximize optimal draft positioning. It's the antithesis of going all-in, but the strategy has its benefits. Namely, they find guys like RoCo who can contribute on good teams but they sign them to bargain basement deals, in addition to renting cap space for picks/swaps/etc.

Minnesota hasn't been in the playoffs for 10 years and they managed to trade a guy who was a top 8 or so offensive player in the league for the top pick in the draft (Cleveland overpaid for maximizing LBJ's title window). They traded a first for Thad Young when nobody was willing to give up a pick for him, rounded out their bench with vets (Mo Williams), and spent another protected first on a rookie who's ceiling looks like a bench big (Payne). They suffered injuries and had the worst record, yet nobody jumped them in the draft. They tanked once things went south. They're still technically rebuilding and may lose their pick this year (top 12 protected right?).

Sacramento has been a disaster with at least 3 regimes now. They haven't purposefully been bad, but have been brutally incompetent except for picking Cousins. Is spending money unwisely, mortgaging the future for an outside shot at the 8th seed, and churning through coaches what Philly should do?

You can definitely question Hinkie's drafting (most notably MCW over Giannis, which seemed like a "fit" pick more than anything, and passing on Clarkson). He took Okafor knowing he could generate his own offense and likely retain his value if things broke right. Porzingis would look a lot worse on offense in Philly considering for the first 20 games or so their best PG has been an undrafted rookie. Defensively, they'd be close to top 10 with Porzingis most likely. People aren't realizing how much better the Knicks backcourt is than Philly's and the effect that has on KP (not to mention having an offensive stud like Melo).

I thought that they should have thrown enough $$$ at CoJo to have a full 48 mins of at least competent PG play to start out the year (he knows Brett Brown, could start, etc.). That was a blatant tank job move to have your likely 2 best PGs be injured for 20+ games at the outset.

The 2014 draft set the team back at least 1 season and it was mostly because they got jumped by Cleveland. If they stayed at #2, there's a good chance they get Wiggins. At worst they get Parker, who even after an ACL tear has a better shot of being a star level player than Embiid right now. Embiid could recover enough to be play great in 20mpg, but it seems plenty teams would have drafted him based on at least 2 other squads trying to trade up for him.

Since the LAL/MIA/OKC picks didn't convey last year, it was thought that summer 2016 would be when Philly strikes. I think they assembled the illest fitting and most imbalanced roster to ensure they have the worst record. They need to draft a Simmons-type and that's the only reason they keep fielding this type of roster.

Hiring JC has a couple benefits- he actually will talk to the press (so the coach doesn't have to), he has a good rep with players and agents alike, and he gives the appearance to the public that the team is going to trend upwards as fast as they can. It'll be a disaster if he and Hinkie can't coexist and if he gives his son a job.

If you think Hinkie hasn't done a great job of stacking the deck in terms of future picks, you're flat out wrong. RoCo is a quality rotation piece at worst and could actually start on other teams. Noel made big strides during the year and was a legit paint anchor on D. Saric is playing well in relatively limited minutes overseas. Okafor is a legit NBA player who's hit a pretty big funk recently.

Hinkie hasn't used any of his assets or players to cash in yet. Maybe that's why they brought in JC, too.

[sd3035]

all non playoff teams should have one ping pong ball

[oh the horror]

Embiid is the next Oden, book it.


At this point even Oden was better off. At least he seemed like he gave a shit. Embiid is a bum.

[r15mohd]

at this point, with all the young acquisitions they have - it's time to trade up for a big name, and that includes their upcoming top 3 draft pick next summer.

they need a superstar, and certainly keep Okafor as a tandem to move forward. then look for role players next summer and hopefully begin to make a dent.

[MiseryCityTexas]

6ers just need a coach, a small forward, and a back court.

[GOBB]

This is gonna be a long post...

The problem was they were too open with their tanking. They blatantly said they were in asset accumulation mode and punted on contacting mid-level FAs- they only want to meet with stars and scrap heap guys. Teams have tanked for years, but Philly made it painfully obvious to the rest of the league. They couldn't hide behind the "incompetence" tag- teams knew they won every trade in retrospect and only made long-term moves. I think this strategy is still viable, but no ownership group has been willing to absorb losses like this to maximize optimal draft positioning. It's the antithesis of going all-in, but the strategy has its benefits. Namely, they find guys like RoCo who can contribute on good teams but they sign them to bargain basement deals, in addition to renting cap space for picks/swaps/etc.

Minnesota hasn't been in the playoffs for 10 years and they managed to trade a guy who was a top 8 or so offensive player in the league for the top pick in the draft (Cleveland overpaid for maximizing LBJ's title window). They traded a first for Thad Young when nobody was willing to give up a pick for him, rounded out their bench with vets (Mo Williams), and spent another protected first on a rookie who's ceiling looks like a bench big (Payne). They suffered injuries and had the worst record, yet nobody jumped them in the draft. They tanked once things went south. They're still technically rebuilding and may lose their pick this year (top 12 protected right?).

Sacramento has been a disaster with at least 3 regimes now. They haven't purposefully been bad, but have been brutally incompetent except for picking Cousins. Is spending money unwisely, mortgaging the future for an outside shot at the 8th seed, and churning through coaches what Philly should do?

You can definitely question Hinkie's drafting (most notably MCW over Giannis, which seemed like a "fit" pick more than anything, and passing on Clarkson). He took Okafor knowing he could generate his own offense and likely retain his value if things broke right. Porzingis would look a lot worse on offense in Philly considering for the first 20 games or so their best PG has been an undrafted rookie. Defensively, they'd be close to top 10 with Porzingis most likely. People aren't realizing how much better the Knicks backcourt is than Philly's and the effect that has on KP (not to mention having an offensive stud like Melo).

I thought that they should have thrown enough $$$ at CoJo to have a full 48 mins of at least competent PG play to start out the year (he knows Brett Brown, could start, etc.). That was a blatant tank job move to have your likely 2 best PGs be injured for 20+ games at the outset.

The 2014 draft set the team back at least 1 season and it was mostly because they got jumped by Cleveland. If they stayed at #2, there's a good chance they get Wiggins. At worst they get Parker, who even after an ACL tear has a better shot of being a star level player than Embiid right now. Embiid could recover enough to be play great in 20mpg, but it seems plenty teams would have drafted him based on at least 2 other squads trying to trade up for him.

Since the LAL/MIA/OKC picks didn't convey last year, it was thought that summer 2016 would be when Philly strikes. I think they assembled the illest fitting and most imbalanced roster to ensure they have the worst record. They need to draft a Simmons-type and that's the only reason they keep fielding this type of roster.

Hiring JC has a couple benefits- he actually will talk to the press (so the coach doesn't have to), he has a good rep with players and agents alike, and he gives the appearance to the public that the team is going to trend upwards as fast as they can. It'll be a disaster if he and Hinkie can't coexist and if he gives his son a job.

If you think Hinkie hasn't done a great job of stacking the deck in terms of future picks, you're flat out wrong. RoCo is a quality rotation piece at worst and could actually start on other teams. Noel made big strides during the year and was a legit paint anchor on D. Saric is playing well in relatively limited minutes overseas. Okafor is a legit NBA player who's hit a pretty big funk recently.

Hinkie hasn't used any of his assets or players to cash in yet. Maybe that's why they brought in JC, too.

Good post.

[GOBB]

"Won every trade" and yet they're about to set the record for most losses in a three year plan. For crying out loud, is their plan seriously a 5-7 year rebuild:oldlol:

Hinkie said 5 year plan. Where were you? Oh rooting for a franchise that has been a loser for nearly a decade (you do the math on the Wolves rebuild) since KG was traded. Same franchise that drafted 4 first round PGs. And their first PG didnt even come over right away. I could go on and on but yeah Wolves fans laughing at the Sixers 3 year losing spree? Pure comedy. I have to pinch myself at the laughs.

Question what is the avg win total for the wolves post KG? How many .400 seasons? How many seasons under .200? Lets see those numbers please.

I'll wait...

[Embers]

Why are we pretending this is 100% by design?

Reality of the situation is while they are tanking the 1-22 or whatever is coming about because the players they are drafting are actually not that good

- Noels was okay last year but this season he has looked Roy Hibbertesque out there. I dont think his trade value would be anything more then a late first rounder. I dont think he would start for many other sides either at present.
- Embiid is a flop. Not playing actually makes you a flop also, not just being bad at basketball
- Okafor has been just okayish. Not someone you consider a franchise player. Reminds you more of Carlos Boozer then Al Jefferson at times. I dont think he is in the top 5 so far of players played
- Other poor young players. Nick Stauskas is shocking, Sampson + Thompson not NBA players either

At present if im doing a future team for Sixers after 3 years at very best I have the future side looking like

???
???
???
???
Okafor

Noels Covington Wroten ??? ???? ???

The ??? are all parts that need filling. Rest have either played 0 games or shown they are not NBA players in any form. Long way to go when you are already 3 years in I think

[oarabbus]

Why are we pretending this is 100% by design?

Reality of the situation is while they are tanking the 1-22 or whatever is coming about because the players they are drafting are actually not that good

- Noels was okay last year but this season he has looked Roy Hibbertesque out there. I dont think his trade value would be anything more then a late first rounder. I dont think he would start for many other sides either at present.
- Embiid is a flop. Not playing actually makes you a flop also, not just being bad at basketball
- Okafor has been just okayish. Not someone you consider a franchise player. Reminds you more of Carlos Boozer then Al Jefferson at times. I dont think he is in the top 5 so far of players played
- Other poor young players. Nick Stauskas is shocking, Sampson + Thompson not NBA players either

At present if im doing a future team for Sixers after 3 years at very best I have the future side looking like

???
???
???
???
Okafor

Noels Covington Wroten ??? ???? ???

The ??? are all parts that need filling. Rest have either played 0 games or shown they are not NBA players in any form. Long way to go when you are already 3 years in I think


Not only that, but Wroten is like a poor man's Evan Turner. He's a guy you want coming off the bench on your playoff squad.

[Embers]

Yeh it was a at very best scenario. In reality also id probably have Okafor more as a offensive 6th man also at this stage and a player id be bringing off the bench in a playoff side

[GOBB]

Wroten most likely wont be around. Dont believe they picked up his option so...

[90sgoat]

Why are we pretending this is 100% by design?

Reality of the situation is while they are tanking the 1-22 or whatever is coming about because the players they are drafting are actually not that good


You're right, but see this is why Hinkie strategy doesn't work.

Drafting today is much different from drafting before the straight from high school.

Today, you really don't know what you're getting before you are 3-4 years into a players career.

Curry didn't look like an MVP on draft day. Kawhi didn't look like Finals MVP.

Players straight out of high school or one and done are huge lottery tickets, so how can the tank strategy even be sure unless you draft guys like Davis, Lebron, Simmons who are clearly stars.

Also Hinkie drafts like shit. Michael Carter Williams, a tall point guard with no jumper, how often does that work out. Noel, a defense only center, who everyone could see had a max upside of Marcus Camby. A center who is injured on draft day.

You begin to suspect Hinkie does it on purpose to tank until the sure thing is there - Simmons. But even then you only have 35% chance for the first pick.

Maybe Hinkie is just a shit drafter?

Also, the Sixers had a decent core before they went into tank mode. Why not keep Jrue Holliday, All Star guard, is there something I don't know about him? Igoudala, the league FMVP and you couldn't get some decent young player for them instead of draft picks?

[SwishSquared]

You're right, but see this is why Hinkie strategy doesn't work.

Drafting today is much different from drafting before the straight from high school.

Today, you really don't know what you're getting before you are 3-4 years into a players career.

Curry didn't look like an MVP on draft day. Kawhi didn't look like Finals MVP.

Players straight out of high school or one and done are huge lottery tickets, so how can the tank strategy even be sure unless you draft guys like Davis, Lebron, Simmons who are clearly stars.

Also Hinkie drafts like shit. Michael Carter Williams, a tall point guard with no jumper, how often does that work out. Noel, a defense only center, who everyone could see had a max upside of Marcus Camby. A center who is injured on draft day.

You begin to suspect Hinkie does it on purpose to tank until the sure thing is there - Simmons. But even then you only have 35% chance for the first pick.

Maybe Hinkie is just a shit drafter?

Also, the Sixers had a decent core before they went into tank mode. Why not keep Jrue Holliday, All Star guard, is there something I don't know about him? Igoudala, the league FMVP and you couldn't get some decent young player for them instead of draft picks?Hinkie didn't trade Iggy, the previous GM did. The current ownership passed on Hinkie to give the other FO one more shot iirc. They gave up Iggy, Moe Harkless, Vucevic, and like 2 firsts for Bynum. They gave up a lotto-protected first to MIA for Arnett Moultrie on draft night.

They then hired Hinkie once it was clear they blew it. He traded Jrue because it got him 2 lotto picks, one being Noel (who has played more games than Jrue has for NOP, even though NN missed his entire rookie year). The other was used on Elfrid Payton, which he flipped to Orlando to get back Philly's 2017 first round pick iirc and the rights to Dario Saric (whom Hinkie wanted all along).

People are forgetting what moves Hinkie did and what his predecessors did (they trashed the future of the team, so he had to undo their mistakes). Even if Hinkie is fired before he sees the end of his rebuild (which would now theoretically end after the 2017 draft best-case imo), he'd give the next management team a clean cap sheet, all of their own future picks, and young guys still on rookie deals. So, essentially a blank slate.

Also, this team is basically the youngest in NBA history. So, if you're saying that nobody knows how good these young players will be when they declare to be a pro, why are we judging anybody on Philly when the only guys who have played more than 2 years of pro ball on their roster are Carl Landry and Hollis Thompson. That's an example of how flawed the logic is here. We all know young teams typically flounder...

That being said, I've said many times it's fair to critique him for MCW over Giannis (I knew that was bad even on draft night), passing on Clarkson multiple times in 2014 2nd round, and drafting likely for "best value" in Okafor over most potential in KP (or others). Imo, he got the 3rd best player of the 2013 draft at #6 (two guys ahead of NN drafted after him, meaning majority of teams blew it), likely got great value for the #11 pick in 2013 in a trade, and we don't know what's up with Embiid (though I was a heck of a lot more bullish on him fully recovering at the outset of the news for the first break in his foot than now). Okafor is who we thought he was.

The tanking strategy minimizes the risk of busts by continually being in position to have a high draft pick. Fitting pieces and building out a sensible roster are secondary to landing the first stud. However, luck and the human element aren't accounted for in this method. But no strategy is fool proof and they rolled the dice trying to win this way vs. "the old school way," which is how they landed Bynum.

[dhsilv]

Hinkie didn't trade Iggy, the previous GM did. The current ownership passed on Hinkie to give the other FO one more shot iirc. They gave up Iggy, Moe Harkless, Vucevic, and like 2 firsts for Bynum. They gave up a lotto-protected first to MIA for Arnett Moultrie on draft night.

They then hired Hinkie once it was clear they blew it. He traded Jrue because it got him 2 lotto picks, one being Noel (who has played more games than Jrue has for NOP, even though NN missed his entire rookie year). The other was used on Elfrid Payton, which he flipped to Orlando to get back Philly's 2017 first round pick iirc and the rights to Dario Saric (whom Hinkie wanted all along).

People are forgetting what moves Hinkie did and what his predecessors did (they trashed the future of the team, so he had to undo their mistakes). Even if Hinkie is fired before he sees the end of his rebuild (which would now theoretically end after the 2017 draft best-case imo), he'd give the next management team a clean cap sheet, all of their own future picks, and young guys still on rookie deals. So, essentially a blank slate.

Also, this team is basically the youngest in NBA history. So, if you're saying that nobody knows how good these young players will be when they declare to be a pro, why are we judging anybody on Philly when the only guys who have played more than 2 years of pro ball on their roster are Carl Landry and Hollis Thompson. That's an example of how flawed the logic is here. We all know young teams typically flounder...

That being said, I've said many times it's fair to critique him for MCW over Giannis (I knew that was bad even on draft night), passing on Clarkson multiple times in 2014 2nd round, and drafting likely for "best value" in Okafor over most potential in KP (or others). Imo, he got the 3rd best player of the 2013 draft at #6 (two guys ahead of NN drafted after him, meaning majority of teams blew it), likely got great value for the #11 pick in 2013 in a trade, and we don't know what's up with Embiid (though I was a heck of a lot more bullish on him fully recovering at the outset of the news for the first break in his foot than now). Okafor is who we thought he was.

The tanking strategy minimizes the risk of busts by continually being in position to have a high draft pick. Fitting pieces and building out a sensible roster are secondary to landing the first stud. However, luck and the human element aren't accounted for in this method. But no strategy is fool proof and they rolled the dice trying to win this way vs. "the old school way," which is how they landed Bynum.

Posts like this make the stupid on these boards tolerable. Thank you for this!

[SwishSquared]

Posts like this make the stupid on these boards tolerable. Thank you for this!:cheers: You know more about the team than I do, but back in 2013 after they made the Jrue trade I thought this would be a fascinating case study in rebuilding a team. B/c of that, I probably pay more attention to them more than most hoops fans, but it's a team that can be fun to watch with how hard they play on D.

The one thing you can say though is they've had little positive lotto luck and maybe that changes this year.

Also this board has gone way downhill and I've been talking hoops elsewhere as a result. So few people are as informed as they should be when they make big statements and stuff. Just gets old after awhile lol, esp with the troll threads. I remember us having some good convos-always nice to discuss things w/ you!

[DaRkJaWs]

Not sure if someone else has mentioned this, but I know many have not...but the only problem with the Hinkie strategy is that the players will probably not stick around when they are in this terrible situation. So I think the real thing we get out of this is that if you're going to have a terrible team, at least make sure the individuals are cohesive in some way such that they can get SOME wins in the NBA. You know, give them a little hope, as opposed to hopelessness and loss after loss after loss.

[dhsilv]

:cheers: You know more about the team than I do, but back in 2013 after they made the Jrue trade I thought this would be a fascinating case study in rebuilding a team. B/c of that, I probably pay more attention to them more than most hoops fans, but it's a team that can be fun to watch with how hard they play on D.

The one thing you can say though is they've had little positive lotto luck and maybe that changes this year.

Also this board has gone way downhill and I've been talking hoops elsewhere as a result. So few people are as informed as they should be when they make big statements and stuff. Just gets old after awhile lol, esp with the troll threads. I remember us having some good convos-always nice to discuss things w/ you!

I'm willing to post elsewhere, where are plays judge less by ***** size? I'd be interested.

[SwishSquared]

I'm willing to post elsewhere, where are plays judge less by ***** size? I'd be interested.Hahaha. R/nba and the SB-nation blogs dedicated to each NBA team have much less trolling and more meaningful discussions. Real GM is a site which is nice to browse time to time, too.

There are basically 10 posters left on this board, yourself included. It's kinda sad lol.

[FireDavidKahn]

Hinkie said 5 year plan. Where were you? Oh rooting for a franchise that has been a loser for nearly a decade (you do the math on the Wolves rebuild) since KG was traded. Same franchise that drafted 4 first round PGs. And their first PG didnt even come over right away. I could go on and on but yeah Wolves fans laughing at the Sixers 3 year losing spree? Pure comedy. I have to pinch myself at the laughs.

Question what is the avg win total for the wolves post KG? How many .400 seasons? How many seasons under .200? Lets see those numbers please.

I'll wait...
We got 2 potential top 10 players on our team, you?

You also don't get it. Wolves TRIED to rebuild and failed with Foye/McCants/Garnett and it failed. We TRIED to rebuild again with Love + other crap (Kahn!). See a theme? Our franchise has tried and failed. Now we are TRYING again. Sure, we tanked ONE time:oldlol: I'll give you that.

The Sixers AREN'T TRYING to do anything. They are intentionally tanking and have been for three years straight. And guess what? They will next year as well. If you, as a fan, are ok with INTENTIONALLY LOSING FOR 5 YEARS...well I feel sorry for you.

[Duffy Pratt]

Check out the Clippers from 1981 to 2004. When it comes to deliberately sucking, the 76ers are just babes in the woods. Sterling would get rid of any talent he had to pay, make his payroll artificially low, and profit off of the luxury tax and the NBA's TV contracts. The league was fine with this, and fine with having the perpetual worst franchise in all of sports history. Why would the 76ers for a few years be embarrassing?

[SwishSquared]

We got 2 potential top 10 players on our team, you?

You also don't get it. Wolves TRIED to rebuild and failed with Foye/McCants/Garnett and it failed. We TRIED to rebuild again with Love + other crap (Kahn!). See a theme? Our franchise has tried and failed. Now we are TRYING again. Sure, we tanked ONE time:oldlol: I'll give you that.

The Sixers AREN'T TRYING to do anything. They are intentionally tanking and have been for three years straight. And guess what? They will next year as well. If you, as a fan, are ok with INTENTIONALLY LOSING FOR 5 YEARS...well I feel sorry for you.They're trying to land a Wiggins or Towns in the draft and will keep a bare bones roster until they land a guy(s) they are confident is capable of being a 2-way superstar. Considering your team has Wiggins & Towns, you should understand the importance of this. If they can't draft him, they will try to trade for one or sign one as a FA (although these 2 paths are less likely to happen).

They are trying to hit on 2nd round picks and to churn through their bottom of their roster to get keepers who they can keep on cost-controlled, multiyear deals. RoCo would get minutes on the wing (or at PF in small lineups) on any smart NBA team. Grant is #4 in the entire league at opponent FG% at the rim.

Also, this is year #3 of the rebuild. If they lose big again next year, that's year #4. Just thought I'd fix the number...

They only things they haven't tried to do is spend money on middling FAs, trade picks for guys who don't move the needle, or deviate from a plan that they detailed could take as long as 7 years when they first embarked on it.

It's the most deliberately transparent rebuild by optimizing draft position and number of picks (aka tank job). You seriously need this to be constantly explained to you? It's awful for fans to watch, limits revenue in the short term, can alienate casual fans, and create excess stress on coaches/players. We all know that. Now go back to enjoying your budding superstar duo!

[Phantom_Blue]

You hear some people say it's better than the mediocrity treadmill, but realistically every team is mediocre every year outside of the few that become good enough to contend for the championship.

Imagine 4 or 5 teams tried to pull what Hinkie is doing, the NBA would go down the shitter, not to mention it wouldn't work because they would all have the same chances for that ping pong ball, except now they all have losing cultures.

Even if they get Simmons, you still have to find quality and talented players that want to be apart the shit organization, and then they have to build chemistry. More like a 10-11 year plan, which is effectively just a ****ing joke.

[chocolatethunder]

As a Sixer fan I'll throw my two cents in here. I'm on board with what's happened for the most part but I'm also realistic.

What Hinkie inherited was an absolute mess. He has done the best job (I don't think that it could be done any better) in getting the team plenty of picks for the immediate future and beyond. For that I give him an A+. If someone is complaining about getting Stauskas, the trade wasn't about him. They were forced to take him and Landry. The trade was about the pick swaps (two years, not just one) and a first round pick. Stauskas sucks but the deal wasn't about him at all.

He has just drafted ok. I am not wowed with his drafting. I think that flipping Jrue for Noel and a pick was great and flipping Payton to get their pick back was great. I think that you had to take Embiid because of the potential payoff even with the risk. The one problem is that their medical team had nothing to do with his first surgery. That happened before the draft. Getting Noel, who was touted as the number one pick in that draft (one of the shittiest drafts since the Kenyon Martin draft in my opinion) was a good pick (I don't think for one second he's going to be some all start caliber player though). Drafting MCW where they drafted him and flipping him for what could be a decent pick is fine with me. Hindsight is easy in any draft. I hate MCW but that draft was so damn bad. I am not really on board with Okafor. I would rather have had Mudiay or Porzingis. It makes no sense to take a fat out of shape PF/C who can neither play defense nor rebound when you're building an uptempo defensive team. Mudiay sucks now too but he at least has the potential for growth. You can't teach Okafor to rebound and be fast. It just doesn't happen. I am realistic about Saric and I think that pick is just ok. I expect him to be a decent bench player in the league. A slowish PF who can't shoot super well but can rebound and pass well for his position. Smart basketball player but not a starter. His second round picks are jokes. Grant is ok. He looks decent on this team but would be in the D League w KJ if he were on any other team. Drafting I give him a C.

The real problem with Hinkie is that he's not done a good job building relationships and he has the Morey idea that you can replace player a with a player who has similar numbers and they will fit in. For example. That shitty player Ish Smith fit in well in Philly and ran the pick and roll well with Noel. Noel played better with Ish. Hinkie instead signs a bunch of shit PGs and while McConnell has played better than I thought he would, the team still sucks and he and Noel don't play together as well and I just feel that Ish was a better fit for him. The team sucks either way so why not go with a guy who also costs nothing but plays with your developing PF/C well? He also traded MCW behind Brett Brown's back which was not a good thing. It's not that I wanted MCW ( I hated him) but he blindsided Brown which I think is unfair. He has also had a revolving door of less than D league players for Brown and zero stability and Brown has said on more than one occasion that that is not what he signed up for and that it's difficult to develop talent when you only have players for a few months at a time. Again, I don't really see where that helps anyone involved. His negotiating style w second round picks hasn't really won him any friends with any agents either. Again, it's just unnecessary. So I would give him an F in this.

I think that he did pick a great coach for developing talent. I like Brown a lot. I think that bringing in Colangelo can help correct a lot of the shortcomings of Hinkie for sure.

One last thing. If Embiid were healthy, none of this would be talked about. The problem is that he isn't and that's part of the risk in any draft, not just drafting someone who is hurt. They have suffered a worst case scenario in terms of where they have picked in the draft (not worst case but certainly not great) and of course the bullshit with Embiid's foot. I am all for them losing to rebuild and get draft picks so that once the team gets better they willl have picks available to them that they would not normally have. However, the product that has been on the floor is beyond bad. They try really hard but the personnel isn't there. Who gives a shit about Wroten he's trash. He's better than what they have but he won't be around when they get better. So anyway, I'm ok with Hinkie and still support what's happening but I'm realistic also.

[FireDavidKahn]

They're trying to land a Wiggins or Towns in the draft and will keep a bare bones roster until they land a guy(s) they are confident is capable of being a 2-way superstar. Considering your team has Wiggins & Towns, you should understand the importance of this. If they can't draft him, they will try to trade for one or sign one as a FA (although these 2 paths are less likely to happen).

They are trying to hit on 2nd round picks and to churn through their bottom of their roster to get keepers who they can keep on cost-controlled, multiyear deals. RoCo would get minutes on the wing (or at PF in small lineups) on any smart NBA team. Grant is #4 in the entire league at opponent FG% at the rim.

Also, this is year #3 of the rebuild. If they lose big again next year, that's year #4. Just thought I'd fix the number...

They only things they haven't tried to do is spend money on middling FAs, trade picks for guys who don't move the needle, or deviate from a plan that they detailed could take as long as 7 years when they first embarked on it.

It's the most deliberately transparent rebuild by optimizing draft position and number of picks (aka tank job). You seriously need this to be constantly explained to you? It's awful for fans to watch, limits revenue in the short term, can alienate casual fans, and create excess stress on coaches/players. We all know that. Now go back to enjoying your budding superstar duo!
And how many times does it need to be explained to you that tanking doesn't work 95/100 times? Enjoy tanking for the 4th year straight and the 5th after that.

[SwishSquared]

And how many times does it need to be explained to you that tanking doesn't work 95/100 times? Enjoy tanking for the 4th year straight and the 5th after that.I'm not even a 76ers fan....And please post where I said tanking works, at any success rate.

Like I said, enjoy watching your budding superstars! KAT's insanely polished for a rook. 76ers should be mostly irrelevant to you, yet you pile up on them.

I only post in threads like this since barely anybody here actually is knowledgeable about their situation or where their franchise stood 2.5 years ago. I've been critical of Hinkie's drafting and punting on FA. Praised him for his trades. Seems fair and balanced, right?

[Mrofir]

A lot of really good posts on this thread.

However -- people get caught up with whether the tanking strategy is working. I personally don't think it will pan out, but that is a secondary issue imo.

The problem is this strategy is unsustainable for the league.

As others have noted they are not the first team to tank but they may be the most transparent tankers ever, and they seem committed to doing so until they find that golden ticket. And that is a problem...

[dhsilv]

A lot of really good posts on this thread.

However -- people get caught up with whether the tanking strategy is working. I personally don't think it will pan out, but that is a secondary issue imo.

The problem is this strategy is unsustainable for the league.

As others have noted they are not the first team to tank but they may be the most transparent tankers ever, and they seem committed to doing so until they find that golden ticket. And that is a problem...

If more teams did this, the quality of the top teams and playoffs would actually be a LOT better. The regular season is mostly overlooked the most fans anyway. I'm not sure it would really hurt the league as a whole (TV money is more important than ticket sales).

[90sgoat]

Hinkie didn't trade Iggy, the previous GM did. The current ownership passed on Hinkie to give the other FO one more shot iirc. They gave up Iggy, Moe Harkless, Vucevic, and like 2 firsts for Bynum. They gave up a lotto-protected first to MIA for Arnett Moultrie on draft night.

They then hired Hinkie once it was clear they blew it. He traded Jrue because it got him 2 lotto picks, one being Noel (who has played more games than Jrue has for NOP, even though NN missed his entire rookie year). The other was used on Elfrid Payton, which he flipped to Orlando to get back Philly's 2017 first round pick iirc and the rights to Dario Saric (whom Hinkie wanted all along).

People are forgetting what moves Hinkie did and what his predecessors did (they trashed the future of the team, so he had to undo their mistakes). Even if Hinkie is fired before he sees the end of his rebuild (which would now theoretically end after the 2017 draft best-case imo), he'd give the next management team a clean cap sheet, all of their own future picks, and young guys still on rookie deals. So, essentially a blank slate.

Also, this team is basically the youngest in NBA history. So, if you're saying that nobody knows how good these young players will be when they declare to be a pro, why are we judging anybody on Philly when the only guys who have played more than 2 years of pro ball on their roster are Carl Landry and Hollis Thompson. That's an example of how flawed the logic is here. We all know young teams typically flounder...

That being said, I've said many times it's fair to critique him for MCW over Giannis (I knew that was bad even on draft night), passing on Clarkson multiple times in 2014 2nd round, and drafting likely for "best value" in Okafor over most potential in KP (or others). Imo, he got the 3rd best player of the 2013 draft at #6 (two guys ahead of NN drafted after him, meaning majority of teams blew it), likely got great value for the #11 pick in 2013 in a trade, and we don't know what's up with Embiid (though I was a heck of a lot more bullish on him fully recovering at the outset of the news for the first break in his foot than now). Okafor is who we thought he was.

The tanking strategy minimizes the risk of busts by continually being in position to have a high draft pick. Fitting pieces and building out a sensible roster are secondary to landing the first stud. However, luck and the human element aren't accounted for in this method. But no strategy is fool proof and they rolled the dice trying to win this way vs. "the old school way," which is how they landed Bynum.

Philly had a fun and decent team before they blew it up. Trading for Bynum was in hindsight a mistake, but it was them trying to go from middle of the pack to conference final contender. It was all around a sound move that failed.

Trading Jrue was a huge mistake, unless Hinkie actually had inside knowledge that he would get injured. He played 78 games, are you telling me Hinkie knew he was somehow going to get injured?

Jrue was an all star, exciting young guard who seemed like he was a good teamplayer. Just the right player to build around.

[chocolatethunder]

Philly had a fun and decent team before they blew it up. Trading for Bynum was in hindsight a mistake, but it was them trying to go from middle of the pack to conference final contender. It was all around a sound move that failed.

Trading Jrue was a huge mistake, unless Hinkie actually had inside knowledge that he would get injured. He played 78 games, are you telling me Hinkie knew he was somehow going to get injured?

Jrue was an all star, exciting young guard who seemed like he was a good teamplayer. Just the right player to build around.
Nah, Jrue was lucky to be an all star one year. Jrue is a guy who needed the ball in his hands at all times to be effective and did very little to help the team. Collins was in love with him and he could do no wrong. He was awful and I mean awful at moving the ball. He was not a good team player he was a ball hog who over dribbled and was just not good. He should never have been an all star. Maybe you're not from Philly so maybe you didn't see him play that much. If you just saw his numbers or a game here or there you wouldn't know how he really played. If you had, you would know that he was extremely overrated. No way that trade was a mistake. They got Noel and a pick for Jrue who has barely played since the trade.

Also the team before the Bynum deal got lucky one year in the playoffs but they weren't good and fun. Iggy was the main guy on those teams and he was not good enough to be a franchise player. As a Sixer fan it was maddening to have to sit through this crap. Doug Collins (who used to be a great coach) had no business coaching anymore and it was just bad. In addition, the nuclear fallout in terms of contracts and picks from King, Stefanski and DiLeo was just unreal. Doug Collins pushed for the Bynum deal which was just beyond stupid. He had no desire to develop Vucevic in any way and then complained after he got him traded because he was playing well in Orlando. It was bizarre. So no, trading Jrue and blowing what was left of this team up was the best thing anyone could have done.

[Phantom_Blue]

If more teams did this, the quality of the top teams and playoffs would actually be a LOT better. The regular season is mostly overlooked the most fans anyway. I'm not sure it would really hurt the league as a whole (TV money is more important than ticket sales).

Apparently it does it hurt the league if even one team does it. But you're an expert.

[SwishSquared]

Apparently it does it hurt the league if even one team does it. But you're an expert.I'd be curious to see what Philly's revenue is vs. what is was 3-4 years ago, and see what allotment of that was redistributed to other teams.

If they worried about poor attendance when Philly hits the road, well other teams have been at the bottom for longer.

If more teams tanked in order to rebuild, I think the it'd be easier to become a middle pack team and that would leave middling FAs to get signed by contenders as bench pieces for the most part. It would hurt the NBA's "middle class," so to speak. Interesting to think about, though.
According to Forbes.com, Sixers owners Joshua Harris and David Blitzer — whom also own the NHL’s New Jersey Devils — are “gunning to own the first NFL team in London.” The ownership group reportedly may look to sell its professional basketball team, as well.

“Their No. 1 goal is to get the NFL team in London,” a source told Forbes.com. “They want to flip the Sixers anyway.’’This quote may have something to do with why they brought in Colangelo or why the ownership group just now decided to change something in the rebuild.

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/12/10/sixers-blitzer-harris-london/

[GOBB]

We got 2 potential top 10 players on our team, you?

How many years did that take to get?


You also don't get it. Wolves TRIED to rebuild and failed with Foye/McCants/Garnett and it failed. We TRIED to rebuild again with Love + other crap (Kahn!). See a theme? Our franchise has tried and failed. Now we are TRYING again. Sure, we tanked ONE time:oldlol: I'll give you that.

The Sixers AREN'T TRYING to do anything. They are intentionally tanking and have been for three years straight. And guess what? They will next year as well. If you, as a fan, are ok with INTENTIONALLY LOSING FOR 5 YEARS...well I feel sorry for you.

:biggums:

Noel, MCW (flipped for Lakers draft pick), Embiid, Saric, Grant, Oak, Covington, Stauskus. I left out Wroten although they gave up nothing much worth noting for him. Reason I leave him off as I dont see him here after this season. So where are you seeing them not trying again? Embiid was a major part of this team going into this summer/season. His injury set us back. That has zero to do with not trying, just bad luck.

I personally dont see much difference with intentionally losing and bad mgmt which leads to bad player personnel which results into losing seasons year after year (see Wolves). :confusedshrug:

Sixers have potentially 4 first rd draft picks next draft. I see LA keeping their pick and late first round picks aren't hitting home runs but they are good assets to have for future moves. Be it draft player, trade, stash euro etc.

Tons of cap space for either signing or trading.

Yeah we haven't done nothing. Gotcha. Like I said before how does a Wolves fan talk shit about a team is beyond me. I'll see your franchise in the lottery 2016 and 2017. Hilarious to see the Wolves live in the lottery even after landing Towns and getting Wiggins. One day your team will get into the postseason.

I noticed you avoided my questions.

1. Wolves avg win total since KG was traded
2. How many .400 seasons since KG was traded
3. How many seasons under .200 since KG was traded
4. You call the answers to 1-3 TRYING. Rofflecopters

[GOBB]

His second round picks are jokes. Grant is ok. He looks decent on this team but would be in the D League w KJ if he were on any other team. Drafting I give him a C.

Second round picks aren't anything to brag about. But during those 3 drafts how many second round picks can you name that are worth talking about? It's a hit and miss round. Scavenger hunt. Grant can end up a solid role player. Not a true starter by any means but a rotational guy if he can only find a spot up 3pt shot. Be a nice 3 & D guy. But not holding my breath for that.

[chocolatethunder]

Second round picks aren't anything to brag about. But during those 3 drafts how many second round picks can you name that are worth talking about? It's a hit and miss round. Scavenger hunt. Grant can end up a solid role player. Not a true starter by any means but a rotational guy if he can only find a spot up 3pt shot. Be a nice 3 & D guy. But not holding my breath for that.
Oh there are of course ones like Clarkson and Green and Korver and shit like that but I was mainly saying that because Hinkie stockpiles second round picks as if they are super valuable and some philly fans are totally delusional when it comes to second round picks. People over on Liberty Ballers talked about Jordan McRae and all those other second round bums as if they could actually contribute some day. Grant could possibly end up being a contributor when/if the team ever gets good. I'm a realist. I am on board with Hinkie but he's not perfect. The day before this happened (colangelo) I said to my friend that I was becoming a little concerned w Hinkie because the team was losing so many games and just the general perception about him/the team with regards to agents/players/other GMs.

[Jameerthefear]

hinkie isn't that great of a drafter

[GOBB]

Oh there are of course ones like Clarkson and Green and Korver and shit like that but I was mainly saying that because Hinkie stockpiles second round picks as if they are super valuable and some philly fans are totally delusional when it comes to second round picks. People over on Liberty Ballers talked about Jordan McRae and all those other second round bums as if they could actually contribute some day. Grant could possibly end up being a contributor when/if the team ever gets good. I'm a realist. I am on board with Hinkie but he's not perfect. The day before this happened (colangelo) I said to my friend that I was becoming a little concerned w Hinkie because the team was losing so many games and just the general perception about him/the team with regards to agents/players/other GMs.

Yeah I see. I'm on a Sixers board on facebook and people swore Jordan McRae was going to be our scorer because he lit up Australia. I'm like bruh, it's weak competition, this dude isn't exactly young (old for a draft pick) and I see no upside. He was drafted end of the second round, a round where few gems are uncovered for a reason. Keep wishing he is I.Thomas in Boston. :oldlol:

I do agree with the stockpiling of picks some Sixers fans act like we would be walking away with the best of the best in those rounds. I myself just liked having a shitload in hopes we land 1 maybe 2 solid bench players out of it. Hinkie is definitely not perfect or a draft guru. But some fans were acting like it where I read (sixers group). So I get your point.

Like now the focus has shifted to wanting Sean Kilpatrick here because he recently dropped 50 or something. I'm like dude stop. If his shot aint falling he's virtually useless. That is the one thing about the Sixers team makeup that annoys me. It gives some sixers fans this idea that we can take Joe Blow and he will be productive. Majority of these dudes would be at the end of a roster for teams. Same thing happened with I.Canaan. People saw his d league highlights and said he could easily avg 15-16 here and be our sniper. Fast forward to today and they want him replaced with Sean Kilpatrick.

It's like a bunch of Michael Jordan talent finders there at times. :oldlol:

And let me clear up Covington, I think he was a nice find. But I'm not considering him a legit starter by any means. He is on this team by default but overall? 8 man rotation player at best imo. Dont want another poster in here thinking I'm hyping Cov or even Nik Staus up. Both backups whose one job is to shoot which Nik sucks at right now.

And yeah I hope Jerry can do some damage control with agents/players and other GMs.

[chocolatethunder]

Yeah I see. I'm on a Sixers board on facebook and people swore Jordan McRae was going to be our scorer because he lit up Australia. I'm like bruh, it's weak competition, this dude isn't exactly young (old for a draft pick) and I see no upside. He was drafted end of the second round, a round where few gems are uncovered for a reason. Keep wishing he is I.Thomas in Boston. :oldlol:

I do agree with the stockpiling of picks some Sixers fans act like we would be walking away with the best of the best in those rounds. I myself just liked having a shitload in hopes we land 1 maybe 2 solid bench players out of it. Hinkie is definitely not perfect or a draft guru. But some fans were acting like it where I read (sixers group). So I get your point.

Like now the focus has shifted to wanting Sean Kilpatrick here because he recently dropped 50 or something. I'm like dude stop. If his shot aint falling he's virtually useless. That is the one thing about the Sixers team makeup that annoys me. It gives some sixers fans this idea that we can take Joe Blow and he will be productive. Majority of these dudes would be at the end of a roster for teams. Same thing happened with I.Canaan. People saw his d league highlights and said he could easily avg 15-16 here and be our sniper. Fast forward to today and they want him replaced with Sean Kilpatrick.

It's like a bunch of Michael Jordan talent finders there at times. :oldlol:

And let me clear up Covington, I think he was a nice find. But I'm not considering him a legit starter by any means. He is on this team by default but overall? 8 man rotation player at best imo. Dont want another poster in here thinking I'm hyping Cov or even Nik Staus up. Both backups whose one job is to shoot which Nik sucks at right now.

And yeah I hope Jerry can do some damage control with agents/players and other GMs.
I am totally cool w having those picks because you can take a very small risk w potential for a large payoff but that potential is really small. Maybe 1 in every 15 picks can possibly contribute in some way? I dunno but they don't get me too excited. Canaan is so bad he's just awful and so was the short dude Pierre Jackson(is that his name?). Anyway, he was awful. Yes Stauskas is so bad. Ok Covington could maybe contribute on a decent team in a year or two. He looks like he may be ok. Like I said, im a realist. I don't get too excited about anything. I try to be objective about all of it. Again, I'm still on board but this year has just been awful.

[SwishSquared]

I am totally cool w having those picks because you can take a very small risk w potential for a large payoff but that potential is really small. Maybe 1 in every 15 picks can possibly contribute in some way? I dunno but they don't get me too excited. Canaan is so bad he's just awful and so was the short dude Pierre Jackson(is that his name?). Anyway, he was awful. Yes Stauskas is so bad. Ok Covington could maybe contribute on a decent team in a year or two. He looks like he may be ok. Like I said, im a realist. I don't get too excited about anything. I try to be objective about all of it. Again, I'm still on board but this year has just been awful.Covington could actually start on non-Philly teams. Not true contenders or in some cases playoff teams, but he'd be an upgrade on the Lakers, Nets, Clippers, Bulls (since MDJ is injured), Charlotte (over PJ Hairston). I actually think he'd get plenty burn in Atlanta or Miami as one of their main bench pieces. He's a quality rotation piece regardless. Don't think Grant will be a starter, like you guys stated, but he eventually could be a 15mpg PF in small ball units on a good team. Dude's actually a good rim protector this year haha. I do like Holmes. Stauskas should be a max 20mpg bench guy (I'm shocked @ poorly he's been on open shots).

I think hoarding those 2nd rounders just makes it possible so if you get 1-2 role players to complement the (hopeful) stars at top of lottery, you accomplished something.

If you guys crush the upcoming draft and get 1 young FA (Fournier would be perfect imo), I think the tune will change.

[GOBB]

Good posts fellas. :cheers:

[Dro]

Great thread actually....

[chocolatethunder]

Covington could actually start on non-Philly teams. Not true contenders or in some cases playoff teams, but he'd be an upgrade on the Lakers, Nets, Clippers, Bulls (since MDJ is injured), Charlotte (over PJ Hairston). I actually think he'd get plenty burn in Atlanta or Miami as one of their main bench pieces. He's a quality rotation piece regardless. Don't think Grant will be a starter, like you guys stated, but he eventually could be a 15mpg PF in small ball units on a good team. Dude's actually a good rim protector this year haha. I do like Holmes. Stauskas should be a max 20mpg bench guy (I'm shocked @ poorly he's been on open shots).

I think hoarding those 2nd rounders just makes it possible so if you get 1-2 role players to complement the (hopeful) stars at top of lottery, you accomplished something.

If you guys crush the upcoming draft and get 1 young FA (Fournier would be perfect imo), I think the tune will change.
That's kind of what I'm saying. Covington isn't really going to have an impact on a real team yet but he may end up being able to do that. Listen, Stauskas is confounding. He shot as well or if not better than McDermott in college (I'm pretty sure it's been a while since I've seen the stats) and was quick enough and even handled the ball ok. He is so bad at everything as a pro it's mind boggling. I don't know what his problem is but he gets open looks, good looks and can't knock them down. I think he's out of the league in three or four years max if continues at this rate. I agree with the second round picks, my complaint is that Sixer fans are often unrealistic about how often you actually find someone in the second round who is worth keeping/developing.

[ZenMaster]

I cannot believe some people are OK with teams in a professional sports league are loosing on purpose, it's really disappointing.

The NBA is the only sportsleague I can think of where this happens, anywhere. Only other examples of this going on are when players loose on purpose for betting purposes, matchfixing, and you can get sent to jail for that.

Winning is the core idea of sports goddamnit, NBA is a competition! Setting your self up to lose is a disgrace, and the NBA having a player entry system that supports it is also a disgrace and very unfortunate.

Please fix it Adam.

[Jailblazers7]

To be fair, I don't even think Hinkie believes he is a draft savant or something. He is just stacking picks and playing probabilities. I do think their are some cap arbitrage opportunities that he should be taking advantage of like Middleton recently tho.

[chocolatethunder]

To be fair, I don't even think Hinkie believes he is a draft savant or something. He is just stacking picks and playing probabilities. I do think their are some cap arbitrage opportunities that he should be taking advantage of like Middleton recently tho.
Agreed. He doesn't claim to be that and has said that they will have some misses no matter what. It's unavoidable. As I said, I am on board but it does concern me that he has too much Morey in him. Analytics are great but a dictatorship is not. In San Antonio and Golden State they have a collective of front office people, incuding the coach, in on all decisions. They are no rigidly defined roles of anyone in their front office when it comes to a personnel decision and they still heavily employ analytics. I think both Hinkie and Morey can be a little too rigid. I am hoping for the best and of course want the best outcome for the Sixers and for Hinkie becuase although I may seem critical of him, I am a huge fan and I am glad he's the GM.

[SwishSquared]

That's kind of what I'm saying. Covington isn't really going to have an impact on a real team yet but he may end up being able to do that. Listen, Stauskas is confounding. He shot as well or if not better than McDermott in college (I'm pretty sure it's been a while since I've seen the stats) and was quick enough and even handled the ball ok. He is so bad at everything as a pro it's mind boggling. I don't know what his problem is but he gets open looks, good looks and can't knock them down. I think he's out of the league in three or four years max if continues at this rate. I agree with the second round picks, my complaint is that Sixer fans are often unrealistic about how often you actually find someone in the second round who is worth keeping/developing.The fact that his best attribute is ball handling is shocking me. I mean if his looks were contested, I could get the bad shooting %. He's awful when he's open. It's got to mental, right?

I think Covington is a keeper as a super sub guy or decent/solid starter type. Philly fans may overrate him and maybe I'm too high on him, but that's one of the guys I think Hinkie actually hit on with the constant roster churn.

And you're all right- Hinkie doesn't claim to be a drafting savant. I think his decision making is driven by data and internal collaboration (Zach Lowe wrote a piece on him recently actually), but my opinion is taking Okafor had little to do with analytics. He didn't fit the Moreyball system and projected to be just "meh" on D and at best average on the defensive glass as a C. I think it was a pure value pick (in terms of a future trade), which I didn't like. I honestly thought you guys lined up a trade for him shortly after drafting him.

Even if he thought he'd be the best fit for the team, I think Hinkie made a mistake signing Marshall over healthy young guards like CoJo. He claimed he thought he'd be ready for opening night, but that's seems like a reckless plan with little risk mitigation.

One positive thing to at least give some of the young guys hope if this materializes:
New Philadelphia 76ers chairman Jerry Colangelo is beginning to impose his influence on the franchise, engaging Mike D'Antoni in talks to join Brett Brown's staff as associate head coach, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

D'Antoni, a four-time head coach in the NBA, has been discussing with Colangelo and Brown a role on the Sixers' bench that could begin later this month, league sources told Yahoo SportsI think MDA gets a bad rep as a coach in general, but he did devise a brilliant system. I don't expect him to be there for more than 2 years if he signs, but bringing in a big NBA name holds some weight for the players. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--76ers-in-talks-to-hire-mike-d-antoni-as-associate-head-coach-053402648.html

[chocolatethunder]

The fact that his best attribute is ball handling is shocking me. I mean if his looks were contested, I could get the bad shooting %. He's awful when he's open. It's got to mental, right?

I think Covington is a keeper as a super sub guy or decent/solid starter type. Philly fans may overrate him and maybe I'm too high on him, but that's one of the guys I think Hinkie actually hit on with the constant roster churn.

And you're all right- Hinkie doesn't claim to be a drafting savant. I think his decision making is driven by data and internal collaboration (Zach Lowe wrote a piece on him recently actually), but my opinion is taking Okafor had little to do with analytics. He didn't fit the Moreyball system and projected to be just "meh" on D and at best average on the defensive glass as a C. I think it was a pure value pick (in terms of a future trade), which I didn't like. I honestly thought you guys lined up a trade for him shortly after drafting him.

Even if he thought he'd be the best fit for the team, I think Hinkie made a mistake signing Marshall over healthy young guards like CoJo. He claimed he thought he'd be ready for opening night, but that's seems like a reckless plan with little risk mitigation.

One positive thing to at least give some of the young guys hope if this materializes:I think MDA gets a bad rep as a coach in general, but he did devise a brilliant system. I don't expect him to be there for more than 2 years if he signs, but bringing in a big NBA name holds some weight for the players. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--76ers-in-talks-to-hire-mike-d-antoni-as-associate-head-coach-053402648.html

Are you kidding me? I love D'Antoni. I'm stoked about this if it happens. Pretty much every team in the league runs something that is a derivative of his offense. His defense is shit but anything will help in Philly.

Okafor was a stupid draft pick. I'd rather Mudiay (or Porzingis). Not because I'm convinced that Mudiay will be so great but just because he at least has the potential to be a very good two way player. Okafor doesn't have a chance to be that. I don't even see him as a pure value pick because I'm not convinced that he has any real value. There is no mystery to his game. Dude can put it in the basket pretty well and he's a good passer. Sucks at all other aspects.

I don't get the Marshall signing on a team that wants to be and uptempo defensive team. They shoulda just stuck with Ish Smith. Just think what that means. This team's PG situation is so fvcking dire that I'm actually advocating Ish Smith to play on the team. What is this world coming to. He really was good for Noel. No bullshit.

[dhsilv]

I cannot believe some people are OK with teams in a professional sports league are loosing on purpose, it's really disappointing.

The NBA is the only sportsleague I can think of where this happens, anywhere. Only other examples of this going on are when players loose on purpose for betting purposes, matchfixing, and you can get sent to jail for that.

Winning is the core idea of sports goddamnit, NBA is a competition! Setting your self up to lose is a disgrace, and the NBA having a player entry system that supports it is also a disgrace and very unfortunate.

Please fix it Adam.

Nobody is claiming players are losing on purpose. They are claiming the owners are ok with putting together a team that isn't good.

[ZenMaster]

Nobody is claiming players are losing on purpose. They are claiming the owners are ok with putting together a team that isn't good.

Neither did I, all I said was that the only other example I can think off where someone loses on purpose in any other sports league is when match fixing happens, which is illegal, that's how absurd this draft system is.

[dhsilv]

Neither did I, all I said was that the only other example I can think off where someone loses on purpose in any other sports league is when match fixing happens, which is illegal, that's how absurd this draft system is.

They aren't losing on purpose. The owners are not getting players who are more capable of winning. The team is doing everything they can to win with what they have. There aren't too many teams playing harder than the 76ers.

[ZenMaster]

They aren't losing on purpose. The owners are not getting players who are more capable of winning. The team is doing everything they can to win with what they have. There aren't too many teams playing harder than the 76ers.

Go back and read my post again, I never said NBA players are losing on purpose.

Like you say, management set up their teams to lose on purpose. But the only reason teams lose on purpose in other leagues is because of matchfixing, I mention that to give you an idea of how crazy this draft setup is.

Professional sports teams losing on purpose, sounds like a joke but in NBA it's not and fans are actually ok with it.

[DMAVS41]

Go back and read my post again, I never said NBA players are losing on purpose.

Like you say, management set up their teams to lose on purpose. But the only reason teams lose on purpose in other leagues is because of matchfixing, I mention that to give you an idea of how crazy this draft setup is.

Professional sports teams losing on purpose, sounds like a joke but in NBA it's not and fans are actually ok with it.

We aren't okay with it, but we realize it's smart....

In this draft system... Hard tanking for 3 years is just way better than what the Pelicans have done for example

The Pels have a franchise player and they are still first round fodder at best likely and don't have a good roster long term

I wish the NBA would make the draft completely random for every team that doesn't make the conference finals...and I hate these rules that reward losing, but Hinkie is doing the smart thing if the goal is to win titles

He took over a team in the dreaded fringe playoff zone and the only smart option was to bottom out

And they are done now... This is the last year... They may suck again next year, but they will try to build their team out this summer

[Phantom_Blue]

We aren't okay with it, but we realize it's smart....

In this draft system... Hard tanking for 3 years is just way better than what the Pelicans have done for example

The Pels have a franchise player and they are still first round fodder at best likely and don't have a good roster long term

I wish the NBA would make the draft completely random for every team that doesn't make the conference finals...and I hate these rules that reward losing, but Hinkie is doing the smart thing if the goal is to win titles

He took over a team in the dreaded fringe playoff zone and the only smart option was to bottom out

And they are done now... This is the last year... They may suck again next year, but they will try to build their team out this summer

It's not smart if it's at the expense of paying fans, well, unless you like making people suffer so someone else can benefit. Sure smart ass adults can love the process, but you're not the only fans in the world.

These other teams aren't just bad because they refuse to tank, they suck because of bad trades or drafts, players just not developing, chemistry not happening, unfortunate injuries, so many things you can point to, but let's just use "not tanking" as the sole reason.

There are actually fans that say they're in a better position than Boston, but at least the Celtics have a ton quality players that teams will actually covet along with draft picks, and they're competing so the fans win too.

[SwishSquared]

It's not smart if it's at the expense of paying fans, well, unless you like making people suffer so someone else can benefit. Sure smart ass adults can love the process, but you're not the only fans in the world.

These other teams aren't just bad because they refuse to tank, they suck because of bad trades or drafts, players just not developing, chemistry not happening, unfortunate injuries, so many things you can point to, but let's just use "not tanking" as the sole reason.

There are actually fans that say they're in a better position than Boston, but at least the Celtics have a ton quality players that teams will actually covet along with draft picks, and they're competing so the fans win too.The incoming Nets picks doesn't provide the same incentive to completely bottom out that the 76ers have. Although I've seen reasonable arguments for why Boston shouldn't have filled its roster with so many average players and tanked for more than 1 season.

As many trades as Hinkie has won, he hasn't gotten the same haul Danny Ainge got for his aging stars.

[dhsilv]

It's not smart if it's at the expense of paying fans, well, unless you like making people suffer so someone else can benefit. Sure smart ass adults can love the process, but you're not the only fans in the world.

These other teams aren't just bad because they refuse to tank, they suck because of bad trades or drafts, players just not developing, chemistry not happening, unfortunate injuries, so many things you can point to, but let's just use "not tanking" as the sole reason.

There are actually fans that say they're in a better position than Boston, but at least the Celtics have a ton quality players that teams will actually covet along with draft picks, and they're competing so the fans win too.

The 76ers are also doing things like NOT signing long term contracts and banking on one draft to fix things. They're avoiding make a critical error and if they keep making small sound choices a bad contract or two will not cripple them as it does so many teams who over paid for mid level talent with long term contracts.

[game3524]

Hinkie didn't trade Iggy, the previous GM did. The current ownership passed on Hinkie to give the other FO one more shot iirc. They gave up Iggy, Moe Harkless, Vucevic, and like 2 firsts for Bynum. They gave up a lotto-protected first to MIA for Arnett Moultrie on draft night.

They then hired Hinkie once it was clear they blew it. He traded Jrue because it got him 2 lotto picks, one being Noel (who has played more games than Jrue has for NOP, even though NN missed his entire rookie year). The other was used on Elfrid Payton, which he flipped to Orlando to get back Philly's 2017 first round pick iirc and the rights to Dario Saric (whom Hinkie wanted all along).

People are forgetting what moves Hinkie did and what his predecessors did (they trashed the future of the team, so he had to undo their mistakes). Even if Hinkie is fired before he sees the end of his rebuild (which would now theoretically end after the 2017 draft best-case imo), he'd give the next management team a clean cap sheet, all of their own future picks, and young guys still on rookie deals. So, essentially a blank slate.

Also, this team is basically the youngest in NBA history. So, if you're saying that nobody knows how good these young players will be when they declare to be a pro, why are we judging anybody on Philly when the only guys who have played more than 2 years of pro ball on their roster are Carl Landry and Hollis Thompson. That's an example of how flawed the logic is here. We all know young teams typically flounder...

That being said, I've said many times it's fair to critique him for MCW over Giannis (I knew that was bad even on draft night), passing on Clarkson multiple times in 2014 2nd round, and drafting likely for "best value" in Okafor over most potential in KP (or others). Imo, he got the 3rd best player of the 2013 draft at #6 (two guys ahead of NN drafted after him, meaning majority of teams blew it), likely got great value for the #11 pick in 2013 in a trade, and we don't know what's up with Embiid (though I was a heck of a lot more bullish on him fully recovering at the outset of the news for the first break in his foot than now). Okafor is who we thought he was.

The tanking strategy minimizes the risk of busts by continually being in position to have a high draft pick. Fitting pieces and building out a sensible roster are secondary to landing the first stud. However, luck and the human element aren't accounted for in this method. But no strategy is fool proof and they rolled the dice trying to win this way vs. "the old school way," which is how they landed Bynum.

Yeah, people tend to forget that Philly did try to build the roster the old school way twice with the Brand signing in 2008 and the Bynum trade in 2012.

[Fallen Angel]

Sixers aren't losing games on purpose. Okafor, Noel, and other aren't trying to be apart of the tank. The front office puts them in the position to lose, but the players are trying their best to win games. Nobody is telling them to throw games away on purpose in hopes for a better chance at a #1 pick.

[DMAVS41]

It's not smart if it's at the expense of paying fans, well, unless you like making people suffer so someone else can benefit. Sure smart ass adults can love the process, but you're not the only fans in the world.

These other teams aren't just bad because they refuse to tank, they suck because of bad trades or drafts, players just not developing, chemistry not happening, unfortunate injuries, so many things you can point to, but let's just use "not tanking" as the sole reason.

There are actually fans that say they're in a better position than Boston, but at least the Celtics have a ton quality players that teams will actually covet along with draft picks, and they're competing so the fans win too.

Okay, but you make it sound like Hinkie has been at this for a decade. He's been doing this for not even 3 years now.

The Celtics are in a bit of a different situation. For starters, they had real trade assets in Rondo/Pierce/KG...that was kind of an absurdly lucky situation they fell into...they also had Avery Bradley on the roster. A good young player you know is a player you want to keep long term.

Sixers really didn't have that...and, quite frankly, I'm not in love with these Celtics as much as most. I think they have a nice team, but still missing that key piece.

They may get it in this draft or via a trade, but if they don't get that franchise guy....they aren't going to be much more than a really good team probably not capable of winning.

Swish and I both agree that the Sixers should start making legit moves and try to capture some good young players in this upcoming free agency. I've said all along that this should be the last hard tank year. They should go after players in the mold of an Aminu that can grow over time...and is worth a potential overpay.

I think they should trade Okafor this summer...I'd probably move him for another top draft pick, but I'd be okay with taking back a young pretty good player and a pick or something.

Nobody would be saying anything if they fell into Wiggins and Towns like the Wolves did. They had the right strategy, the luck just wasn't great so far.

Again, all one can do is give themselves the bast chance as many times as possible...and that is true with business, life, NBA...etc.

Yes, fans deserve more, and that is why they need to start building a legit roster this summer.

But at the same time....what is the goal? If it's to be a fringe playoff team....then do that. But it seems like Philly wanted to contend for titles...and you aren't contending for titles by building a team around Thad Young and Jrue Holiday.

[game3524]

Also I don't think what Philly is doing is an insult to the paying fans. Attendance was fairly bad during the post Iverson treadmill team years(2008-2012), so it is not like fans are clamoring to see that again.

[GOBB]

Sixers aren't losing games on purpose. Okafor, Noel, and other aren't trying to be apart of the tank. The front office puts them in the position to lose, but the players are trying their best to win games. Nobody is telling them to throw games away on purpose in hopes for a better chance at a #1 pick.

That is his point. He's not saying players are losing games.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Well one good thing about the 76ers draft pick is that at least Okafor brought the back to the basket post up game back. I miss the good ole days when damned near everyone in the NBA had a back to the basket post up move. Even some of the point guards from the 90s had they own signature back to the basket post up move.

[dhsilv]

Yeah, people tend to forget that Philly did try to build the roster the old school way twice with the Brand signing in 2008 and the Bynum trade in 2012.

lets not forget webber with iverson and van horn with iverson. They've never done a good job with this stuff.

[dhsilv]

Well one good thing about the 76ers draft pick is that at least Okafor brought the back to the basket post up game back. I miss the good ole days when damned near everyone in the NBA had a back to the basket post up move. Even some of the point guards from the 90s had they own signature back to the basket post up move.

Yes basketball is far better when people post up on every play instead of dribble drive attacks with passes inside and out. Horray for a lack of ball movement...

[Swennaterrulez]

As a lifelong Phoenix Suns fan, I believe that if Jerry Colangelo can't fix the Sixers NOBODY can.

[game3524]

lets not forget webber with iverson and van horn with iverson. They've never done a good job with this stuff.

Yeah, don't get remind me.:(

King and LB wasted the post 2001 Iverson years by trying to find a second scorer, when in reality they simply need some shooters.

[gasolina]

Yeah, don't get remind me.:(

King and LB wasted the post 2001 Iverson years by trying to find a second scorer, when in reality they simply need some shooters.
I dont think it's that simple.

Remember post 2001 there was still hand checking in the leauge. I don't think prime Iverson could play like Westbrook/Lebron in that era even if they had the 3pt personnel then. Hence the need for a second scorer to ease the load off AI.

Further evidence that the year hand checking was taken out, Iverson had a career shooting year.

It was that rule, combined with the Zone D, which forced defenses to become creative with their defenses (strong side loading). This in turn forced offenses to adjust, by putting more and more shooting/passing/dribbling around the ball.