Is the efficiency of driving and kicking for TWO-pointers = posting up?

[3ball]

No... It isn't.

This is why post-ups were used over screen-roll/drive-and-kick in the 80's and 90's - teams simply didn't have the 3-point personnel to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile compared to post-ups.

The only reason screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the foundation of every team's offense in TODAY'S game is because the 3-point shooting exists to make it a more efficient play.

This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

These are the mathematical facts... And btw, Popovich recently SAID the above things - he said he hates 3-pointers and that 3-pointers have replaced post ups.. He didn't say anything about defense preventing post ups - he said THREE POINTERS have caused post-ups to decline.
.

[dubeta]

What, did the 80's have no 3-point line or something?

[Akrazotile]

Lebron is basically MJ in a much stronger era




:applause:

[Cocaine80s]

http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/curryface-stephen-curry-gifs.gif

[Showtime80']

I've never responded to any of your posts directly 3ball and I must say that I do enjoy some of your views.

The 3 point personnel has ALWAYS EXISTED in the NBA even back to the 1970's ABA. People act like the 3'pointer is like the Rock and Jock 25 point shot!!! Hell a scrawny Chris Ford was the league leader in 3's the first few years.

The difference was that almost EVERY team back in the 80's (when the 3 started) had 2 or 3 legitimate low post scoring options and the shots created from that were usually quick 18 to 20 footers (Dennis Johnson 20 foot layup) or layups and dunks (Kareem to Magic), the 3 pointer was an afterthought mainly because teams actually RAN back then and a miss usually resulted in long rebounds for the other team.

The other reason is FUNCTIONALITY! Why would you hoist up 25+ 3 's when you have Kareem and Worthy, McHale, Bird and Parish, Sampson and Olajuwon or Moses down low!?! That's just bad basketball in ANY era.

Michael Cooper, Byron Scott and even Magic late in his career could've shot A MILLION threes whenever they wanted to but they knew that it would not be taking advantage of the better more efficient options they had down low.
After the mid 90's and the decline in low post play as well as the scoring PG phenomenon teams have had to look elsewhere for offense. Can't run an inside-out/fast break attack without a classic low post center or pass first PG.

Transplant the 80's Celtics and Lakers into today's NBA and maybe they take a few more 3's but more or less would play the same way they did back then and would still score 120 points and WRECK the modern 3 point happy teams in the process!

[Straight_Ballin]

This is common knowledge. No hand checking has resulted in it being much easier to shoot the 3, which in turn means that it's going to be taken more frequently than in eras with hand checking. This in turn results in 3 pointers replacing post ups. Post ups are not as frequent in today's game not because of defense, but for the reason that 3ball stated which is the 3 point shot.

[FKAri]

I've never responded to any of your posts directly 3ball and I must say that I do enjoy some of your views.

The 3 point personnel has ALWAYS EXISTED in the NBA even back to the 1970's ABA. People act like the 3'pointer is like the Rock and Jock 25 point shot!!! Hell a scrawny Chris Ford was the league leader in 3's the first few years.

The difference was that almost EVERY team back in the 80's (when the 3 started) had 2 or 3 legitimate low post scoring options and the shots created from that were usually quick 18 to 20 footers (Dennis Johnson 20 foot layup) or layups and dunks (Kareem to Magic), the 3 pointer was an afterthought mainly because teams actually RAN back then and a miss usually resulted in long rebounds for the other team.

The other reason is FUNCTIONALITY! Why would you hoist up 25+ 3 's when you have Kareem and Worthy, McHale, Bird and Parish, Sampson and Olajuwon or Moses down low!?! That's just bad basketball in ANY era.

Michael Cooper, Byron Scott and even Magic late in his career could've shot A MILLION threes whenever they wanted to but they knew that it would not be taking advantage of the better more efficient options they had down low.
After the mid 90's and the decline in low post play as well as the scoring PG phenomenon teams have had to look elsewhere for offense. Can't run an inside-out/fast break attack without a classic low post center or pass first PG.

Transplant the 80's Celtics and Lakers into today's NBA and maybe they take a few more 3's but more or less would play the same way they did back then and would still score 120 points and WRECK the modern 3 point happy teams in the process!

30% of 3ball's posts have merit. 0% of them use properly constructed arguments. Also there is NO WAY 80s Celtics and Lakers would play the same way in today's league and have ANY success. They would have a lot of success but they'd change their play quite a bit to achieve it. A big isn't even allowed to post up for more than a few seconds and has a zone defense collapsing in on him.


This is common knowledge. No hand checking has resulted in it being much easier to shoot the 3, which in turn means that it's going to be taken more frequently than in eras with hand checking. This in turn results in 3 pointers replacing post ups. Post ups are not as frequent in today's game not because of defense, but for the reason that 3ball stated which is the 3 point shot.

I don't think handchecking has affected 3pt shooting directly. Handchecking has affected guard penetration. Guards get in the paint at will today. But that has had a 2nd order effect on 3pt shooting and spacing.

[Showtime80']

Please!

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Bird and Walton were MONSTER college players with awesome post up games against REAL ZONE and no 3 point line!!! They would murder the present SOFT ZONE RULES!

An older Tim Duncan at 40+ years old can still post up ANYTIME wherever he wants on the floor and he NEVER had the refined post game the guys I mentioned above had.

Posting up takes a committed skillful player in that area and a competent pass first PG knowing were to get the ball to that player. Two aspects SEVERELY LACKING in the modern NBA!

[Straight_Ballin]

I don't think handchecking has affected 3pt shooting directly. Handchecking has affected guard penetration. Guards get in the paint at will today. But that has had a 2nd order effect on 3pt shooting and spacing.

When I play outdoors, it's much more difficult for me to get my 3 point shot off because it's street ball, there are no refs, and I have to use my off arm to create space. Hand checked the entire game. I take less 3 pointers per game in street ball. When playing league ball, the defender can barely even touch me without getting the whistle and all I have to do is chain a simple in out dribble after a cross over or behind the back move and I have a wide open look. Hand checking absolutely effects the # of 3 point shots taken.

[3ball]

ridiculous

[90sgoat]

I don't think handchecking has affected 3pt shooting directly. Handchecking has affected guard penetration. Guards get in the paint at will today. But that has had a 2nd order effect on 3pt shooting and spacing.

Seriously man, the lack of handchecking makes a world of difference for 3 point shooting.

Next game, watch what happens after penetration, 50% of the time it's a kickout to the man who had his defender shadow/sag, then he either shoots from there or swings the ball.

The ease of which a guard can get past his man, in addition to blatant moving screens being allowed, means you get a 5 on 4 scenario AT WILL, which creates the opportunity for an open 3 or an open swing ball option.

[3ball]

I don't think handchecking has affected 3pt shooting directly.


You obviously never played ball yourself.

When perimeter defense is hands-off, that means there is mandatory space between defender and ballhandler - the space makes it easier to pull-up for jumpshots compared to hands-ON defense and NO space between defender and ballhandler.

(I find it amusing that guys act like experts on something they've tried to teach themselves without actually doing it... Invariably, there will be huge gaps in their knowledge and perception).





Handchecking has affected guard penetration. Guards get in the paint at will today. But that has had a 2nd order effect on 3pt shooting and spacing.


Agreed

[FKAri]

Please!

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Bird and Walton were MONSTER college players with awesome post up games against REAL ZONE and no 3 point line!!! They would murder the present SOFT ZONE RULES!

An older Tim Duncan at 40+ years old can still post up ANYTIME wherever he wants on the floor and he NEVER had the refined post game the guys I mentioned above had.

Posting up takes a committed skillful player in that area and a competent pass first PG knowing were to get the ball to that player. Two aspects SEVERELY LACKING in the modern NBA!

It's harder to be effective in the post today just as it is easier for guards to get in the paint and easier for shooters to get open. It's not ALL easier. Be reasonable.

[3ball]

people spouting what they WANT to believe, with no backup of logic or facts.

[3ball]

It's harder to be effective in the post today just as it is easier for guards to get in the paint and easier for shooters to get open. It's not ALL easier. Be reasonable.


It is all easier... Spacing makes all aspects of offense easier - this is a fact.

When Popovich complained about having to shoot 3-pointers over posting up, he didn't say a SINGLE THING about defense..

He simply said 3-pointers have replaced post ups as the more efficient option - this is what he said - I'll take his word and the MATH over your delusions..

[3ball]

Michael Cooper, Byron Scott and even Magic late in his career could've shot A MILLION threes whenever they wanted to but they knew that it would not be taking advantage of the better more efficient options they had down low.


Teams attempted two 3-pointers per game in 1985... You think they could've shot 24 per game efficiently like today if they "wanted to"??

That's dumb.. There's no other way to describe it.

Of course, Popovich says you're wrong.... His team has two great post players, yet the Spurs are forced to shoot 20 threes per game to compete, instead of 2 per game like the 80's.. Apparently, 3-pointers make various plays (screen-roll/drive-and-kick) more efficient than post ups from perennial all-stars.





Why would you hoist up 25+ 3 's when you have Kareem and Worthy, McHale, Bird and Parish, Sampson and Olajuwon or Moses down low!?! That's just bad basketball in ANY era.


It wasn't coincidence that the 80's and 90's had better post players.. jfc

Better post players existed in previous eras because post play was viewed as the best way to play... For a very long time, the 3-point shot wasn't considered a great offensive weapon... It was a novelty and coaches/players simply didn't implement/practice it like they did post ups.

Again, the notion that teams could've shot 24 three-pointers per game efficiently in 1985 - just a few years after the 3-point line was introduced - is utterly ridiculous.

It took players THIRTY YEARS for the perception of 3-pointers to reach where it is today and for players to shoot threes as proficiently as they do today.. You reference Cooper and Scott - that's just 2 guys - every team in today's game has 5+ guys that shoot much better than Cooper and Scott did.. It's not even close..

[FKAri]

It is all easier... Spacing makes all aspects of offense easier - this is a fact.

When Popovich complained about having to shoot 3-pointers over posting up, he didn't say a SINGLE THING about defense..

He simply said 3-pointers have replaced post ups as the more efficient option - this is what he said - I'll take his word and the MATH over your delusions..

So you're saying that EVERYTHING is easier offensively in today's NBA and all players are WORSE offensively as well, correct? :rolleyes:

[3ball]

So you're saying that EVERYTHING is easier offensively in today's NBA and all players are WORSE offensively as well, correct? :rolleyes:
yes.. the easier offense is offset by the worse individual offensive skill, which contributes to relatively stable league-wide offensive rating for the last 30 years.

again, teams posted up their players in previous eras - there was very little drive-and-kick because the 3-point shooting didn't exist to make it the ultra-efficient play that it is today.. The only reason screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the foundation of every team's offense in TODAY'S game is because the 3-point shooting exists to make it the most efficient play.

This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

These are the mathematical facts... And btw, Popovich recently SAID the above things - he said he hates 3-pointers and that 3-pointers have replaced post ups.. He didn't say anything about defense preventing post ups - he said THREE POINTERS have caused post-ups to decline.

[dhsilv]

This is common knowledge. No hand checking has resulted in it being much easier to shoot the 3, which in turn means that it's going to be taken more frequently than in eras with hand checking. This in turn results in 3 pointers replacing post ups. Post ups are not as frequent in today's game not because of defense, but for the reason that 3ball stated which is the 3 point shot.

The hand check and shooting 3's have minimal to no connection. This is just absurd.

[dhsilv]

Please!

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Bird and Walton were MONSTER college players with awesome post up games against REAL ZONE and no 3 point line!!! They would murder the present SOFT ZONE RULES!

An older Tim Duncan at 40+ years old can still post up ANYTIME wherever he wants on the floor and he NEVER had the refined post game the guys I mentioned above had.

Posting up takes a committed skillful player in that area and a competent pass first PG knowing were to get the ball to that player. Two aspects SEVERELY LACKING in the modern NBA!

What good is posting up if you can't get the ball? A dominate post player can't get the ball in today's game due to the zone. If you can GET the ball in the post it's effective, but doing that is nearly impossible if a team wants to take it away.

[3ball]

The hand check and shooting 3's have minimal to no connection. This is just absurd.
You obviously never played ball yourself.

When perimeter defense is hands-off, that means there is mandatory space between defender and ballhandler - the space makes it easier to pull-up for jumpshots compared to hands-ON defense and NO space between defender and ballhandler.

(I find it amusing that guys act like experts on something they've tried to teach themselves without actually doing it... Invariably, there will be huge gaps in their knowledge and perception).

thread cliffs: the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

[dhsilv]

When I play outdoors, it's much more difficult for me to get my 3 point shot off because it's street ball, there are no refs, and I have to use my off arm to create space. Hand checked the entire game. I take less 3 pointers per game in street ball. When playing league ball, the defender can barely even touch me without getting the whistle and all I have to do is chain a simple in out dribble after a cross over or behind the back move and I have a wide open look. Hand checking absolutely effects the # of 3 point shots taken.

Lets drop curry. How many 3's are being taken with a defender on them off the dribble? That isn't a huge part of the game today, again unless you're curry and often when he does that he's shooting it 5 feet from the line.

3's are generally even today catch and shoot shots.

[dhsilv]

Seriously man, the lack of handchecking makes a world of difference for 3 point shooting.

Next game, watch what happens after penetration, 50% of the time it's a kickout to the man who had his defender shadow/sag, then he either shoots from there or swings the ball.

The ease of which a guard can get past his man, in addition to blatant moving screens being allowed, means you get a 5 on 4 scenario AT WILL, which creates the opportunity for an open 3 or an open swing ball option.

That's a different argument than what was made. Hand checks don't alter shooting. You're right that players can get past defenders without it easier. That is why the zone was brought back into the game as a simi counter. What zones have really done is made it HARD to get the ball to the post and as a result we see more guard dominated offenses and we're seeing bigs learn to play outside of the post to work WITH guards.

Does this create more 3's than say an 03 spurs system or the mid 90's rockets? Perhaps but more than likely teams learned from teams like that, that when you get open shots, you should be behind the line.

[3ball]

Lets drop curry. How many 3's are being taken with a defender on them off the dribble? That isn't a huge part of the game today, again unless you're curry and often when he does that he's shooting it 5 feet from the line.

3's are generally even today catch and shoot shots.


.
Today's perimeter defense is a league-mandated hands-off - space is now required between players on the perimeter, so shooters and penetrators achieve stats much easier against the visibly weaker defense:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/TgIP3N.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/ofSsuk.gif



Otoh, Curry never faces hands-ON, hand-checking shown below because it's a foul in today's game - the lack of space made it harder to shoot jumpers:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-13-2015/p8lMrn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/ePuSyn.gif
.

[Heavincent]

Something something paint camping

Something something hard fouls

Something something weak side spacing

*insert gifs*

[FKAri]

Lets drop curry. How many 3's are being taken with a defender on them off the dribble? That isn't a huge part of the game today, again unless you're curry and often when he does that he's shooting it 5 feet from the line.

3's are generally even today catch and shoot shots.

He's basically saying that when he plays organized basketball he "chain a simple in out dribble after a cross over or behind the back move and I have a wide open look" FROM 3. This guy's coach must have the greenest of lights for this nigguh if he's doing that.

[3ball]

He's basically saying that when he plays organized basketball he "chain a simple in out dribble after a cross over or behind the back move and I have a wide open look" FROM 3. This guy's coach must have the greenest of lights for this nigguh if he's doing that.

Show me where Curry faced legal contact on the perimeter, instead of the league-mandated space he enjoys currently - show me where he faces perimeter defense like this and maybe I'll give him a little credit for getting off jump shots:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/7NXaIu.gif

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs:


1) The decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

2) When perimeter defense is hands-off (today's no hand-check), that means there is mandatory space between defender and ballhandler - the space makes it easier to pull-up for jumpshots compared to hands-ON defense and NO space between defender and ballhandler.

Popovich recently SAID the above things - he said he hates 3-pointers and that 3-pointers have replaced post ups.. He didn't say anything about defense preventing post ups - he said THREE POINTERS have caused post-ups to decline:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25407446

[warriorfan]

Show me where Curry faced legal contact on the perimeter, instead of the league-mandated space he enjoys currently - show me where he faces perimeter defense like this and maybe I'll give him a little credit for getting off jump shots:
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/7NXaIu.gif

that was solid man defense but that help defender took too sharp of an angle on the trap. worth to mention however that that would of shut down anyone in the league besides Jordan.

[dhsilv]

that was solid man defense but that help defender took too sharp of an angle on the trap. worth to mention however that that would of shut down anyone in the league besides Jordan.

The best part here is that the idiot who's name will not be said posted that showing jordan not passing the ball and yet he claims MJ is an off ball player. Funny stuff.

But whatever...

[3ball]

that was solid man defense but that help defender took too sharp of an angle on the trap.



That happens all the time in today's game - common mistake.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/Iz_v-D.gif


But today's game doesn't allow hand-checking or any contact on the perimeter - therefore, Curry gets league-mandated SPACE on the perimeter that Jordan never enjoyed (seen above)..

The space Curry gets invalidates his stats somewhat and lets us know that Jordan's were understated (since he'd benefit from playing in today's spaced-out, hands-off environment, ideal for guards).





that help defender took too sharp of an angle on the trap



Btw, Jordan's era had tons of correct shading and sagging off on screen-roll:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/wSWEiH.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/NwamL4.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/qmhrTB.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/pIfj1X.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/a_7wTz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/N1zmcy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/COzY74.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/kgwDAW.gif

[3ball]

.
More Previous Era Shading:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/lDO68O.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b160bc7402615f75b7d7e12520d4ca3b.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/0jAxfn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/sJyGot.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/9SEPQO.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a3f97fb5ca224f7de5850bfd10a8abc3.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/981db4f4b419af8380f2d2d6fcab498b.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/y823wS.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/39fa98ad00d6a10b4c300cf02030546d.gif

[SpaceJam]

3ball, how big is your MJ gifs folder?

[3ball]

3ball, how big is your MJ gifs folder?
Depends on the degree to which a Curry fan wants to get ethered

[warriorfan]

Btw, Jordan's era had tons of correct shading and sagging off on screen-roll:

Agreed. Wasn't trolling, was making commentary on that single gif that you posted.

[FKAri]

.
Thread Cliffs:


1) The decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

2) When perimeter defense is hands-off (today's no hand-check), that means there is mandatory space between defender and ballhandler - the space makes it easier to pull-up for jumpshots compared to hands-ON defense and NO space between defender and ballhandler.

Popovich recently SAID the above things - he said he hates 3-pointers and that 3-pointers have replaced post ups.. He didn't say anything about defense preventing post ups - he said THREE POINTERS have caused post-ups to decline:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25407446

Pop said this:
"To a certain degree, you better embrace it or you're going to lose. And every time we've won a championship, the 3-point shot was a big part of it. Because it is so powerful and you've gotta be able to do it. "

He also didn't say a word about post-ups. It's FAR less effective than the 80's to post up guys with the rules now. Also that guy you quoted specifically mentioned TWICE that he's talking about guys other than Curry. He was talking about spot up 3pt shots which is what the overwhelming majority of 3pt shots are.

Cliffs: 3ball gets destroyed by several posters...AGAIN...and decides to sidestep their argument.

[Straight_Ballin]

Depends on the degree to which a Curry fan wants to get ethered

:roll:

[SpaceJam]

Depends on the degree to which a Curry fan wants to get ethered

:applause: :applause: