Legendary Kobe-Duncan rivalry drawing to a close

[IllegalD]

http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/fran_blinebury/12/11/kobe-bryant-tim-duncan-end-of-long-rivalry/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6d

Legendary Kobe-Duncan rivalry drawing to a close


But for the better part of the past two decades, the best rivalry in the game has been Lakers-Spurs. Kobe Bryant vs. Tim Duncan.

They have won 10 championships between them, a fitting five apiece. They have met seven times in playoffs (Lakers 4-3), with the winner going to The Finals each time. Four times the winner of their series went on to claim the championship.

There has been a running debate about which of them has led the true dynasty of their generation. Kobe's Lakers with their "three-peat" from 2000 to 2002, then back-to-back titles in 2009 and 2010? Or Tim's Spurs with their five championships stretched out over an astounding 15 years from 1999 to 2014?



There was Duncan hammering down 37 points and grabbing 16 rebounds in the elimination Game 6 of the 2003 West finals to end the Lakers' reign as three-time champs. There were Kobe's Lakers returning with Derek Fisher's 0.4 second, running, fading jumper in Game 5 of the 2004 West semifinals that flipped the table back on the reigning champion Spurs.



"Many memories," Duncan said. "We've been playing against each other for a long time."

"Beyond his ability, he's one of those guys that brought it every night," said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich. "He wanted to destroy the opponent every night. My Kobe memories were when he beat us somehow or another. Not very fun."

As a 14-time All-Star, Bryant has rung up 23 different 30-point games against the Spurs in his career. His 45-point explosion in the 2001 playoffs remains a franchise postseason record for a Spurs opponent.

"I remember many of those games," said guard Manu Ginobili, who joined the Spurs and the rivalry in 2002. "There were moments there was not much you can do. Just make him take the most uncomfortable shot you could, and even with that there was a good chance it was going in. I have big respect for him."

[bluechox2]

kobe has too much of a super large ego to go the tim duncan route...if he toned it down with the minutes and shots and played more off ball as a spot up shooter and defender..he could play a couple more years easy

[Hey Yo]

Lots of mis-information in that article.

The main being Kobe's Lakers against Tim's Spurs.

The only time they faced each other in the postseason, with Kobe being first option, was in 2008.

The actual rivalry in the early 2000's was Shaq's Lakers vs Tim's Spurs.

[Magic 32]

They have met seven times in playoffs (Lakers 4-3)

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kobe-finger-wag-kobe-bryant-gifs.gif

[Magic 32]

Lots of mis-information in that article.

The main being Kobe's Lakers against Tim's Spurs.

The only time they faced each other in the postseason, with Kobe being first option, was in 2008.

The actual rivalry in the early 200's was Shaq's Lakers vs Tim's Spurs.

Kobe was better than Shaq against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002.

In fact Shaq never had a vintage Shaq series against the Spurs (maybe outside 2001 in which he was outshined).

[dhsilv]

kobe has too much of a super large ego to go the tim duncan route...if he toned it down with the minutes and shots and played more off ball as a spot up shooter and defender..he could play a couple more years easy

There's nothing kobe can do to turn back the injuries he's had. His body just can't do it. There's no work around for this. Sure he could be less awful but he'd still be awful.

[IllegalD]

Lots of mis-information in that article.

The main being Kobe's Lakers against Tim's Spurs.

The only time they faced each other in the postseason, with Kobe being first option, was in 2008.

The actual rivalry in the early 2000's was Shaq's Lakers vs Tim's Spurs.


Lots of butthurt in this comment.

Kobe (and Phil and Fisher) were the only common denominators throughout the entirety of the rivalry.

Not to mention that Kobe was the one that would always absolutely rape them in the playoffs. With Shaq, without Shaq. It didn't matter.

Face it homie. Your butthurtness will only increase over the years as it becomes more and more Kobe's Lakers Dynasty (7 finals and 5 championships from 2000-2010). :pimp:

[feyki]

Lots of mis-information in that article.

The main being Kobe's Lakers against Tim's Spurs.

The only time they faced each other in the postseason, with Kobe being first option, was in 2008.

The actual rivalry in the early 2000's was Shaq's Lakers vs Tim's Spurs.

Kobe played better than Shaq at those series' .

[dhsilv]

Kobe played better than Shaq at those series' .

Or the spurs were focused on shaq and let kobe beat them.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe was better than Shaq against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002.

In fact Shaq never had a vintage Shaq series against the Spurs (maybe outside 2001 in which he was outshined).
Still doesn't change the fact that going into those series, it was known as Shaq vs. Tim

The only time Kobe vs. Tim was used by the media was the 2008 postseason.....

[Hey Yo]

Or the spurs were focused on shaq and let kobe beat them.
:applause:

[Hey Yo]

Lots of butthurt in this comment.

Kobe (and Phil and Fisher) were the only common denominators throughout the entirety of the rivalry.

Not to mention that Kobe was the one that would always absolutely rape them in the playoffs. With Shaq, without Shaq. It didn't matter.

Face it homie. Your butthurtness will only increase over the years as it becomes more and more Kobe's Lakers Dynasty (7 finals and 5 championships from 2000-2010). :pimp:
Always raped them? Kobe vs. Tim postseason only happened 1x.

3 Finals as first option, 2 rings

[feyki]

Or the spurs were focused on shaq and let kobe beat them.

Fairytales .

Spurs had Duncan and Admiral at their center position . Imagine Kobe faced Jordan and Pippen , that's same thing.


Kobe was amazing , like 88-93 Jordan at 2001 . But reason is Spurs had poor perimeter defenders in that series . Tony,Gino and Bowen weren't playing for Spurs . Kobe was his level at 2002 and 2003 . Shaq just faced toughest competition at his career .

[dubeta]

Or the spurs were focused on shaq and let kobe beat them.

This.


Its similar to Daniel Gibsons 31 points vs the Pistons in game 6 in 2007.


Sometimes role players step up due to lack of defensive pressure

[feyki]

This.


Its similar to Daniel Gibsons 31 points vs the Pistons in game 6 in 2007.


Sometimes role players step up due to lack of defensive pressure
:facepalm

Ignorant DumBeta :( .

[IllegalD]

Always raped them? Kobe vs. Tim postseason only happened 1x.

3 Finals as first option, 2 rings

45 & 10 on the road (2001):

(*45 is an opponent playoff high vs the Spurs)

https://youtu.be/qawbo3NOmR4


Dr Buss:

Jim Grey, “I just spoke to Dr. Jerry Buss who owns the Lakers and he has owned the ball club for an awful long time now. And he just told me that he can’t recall any Laker, maybe with the exception of Magic Johnson, over the course of the last month playing at the level that Kobe Bryant is playing at. He says it’s just stupefying to him and astonishing that this guy has done so well. And maybe other than Magic he can’t recall another Laker, including all of the great Lakers (Worthy, Jabbar, Cooper, Nixon) playing the way Kobe Bryant is playing.”


Shaq:

“I told Kobe today he was my idol. I’m serious. He’s playing phenomenal. I don’t know what else to say. I think he’s the best player in the league...by far.”


Bill Simmons:

Kobe stole home court in Game 1 with a 45-point barrage (including 28 in the second half). As the president of the Tim Duncan Is the Best Player of His Generation Club, I can tell you these Game 1 highlights do NOT help my case. You couldn’t have made the price of Kobe’s rookie card high enough in May 2001.


"Mr Clutch" vs Spurs (2002):

https://youtu.be/Q8HgzXLQCTM

Game-Winner (2002):

https://youtu.be/VWPWvJ2wr44


Gregg Popovich:

"He has the uncommon will to win," Popovich said. "It's the exact same will to win as Michael Jordan."


The "Colorado" Game (2004):

https://youtu.be/V0PmB22MFKw


Shaq:

"I don't see how he does it," O'Neal said. "He's a fabulous player, probably the best player that ever played the game, especially with all the stuff he's been going through. And it was a fabulous night for him, a memorable night."


Marv Albert:

"This is one of the great playoff performances of all time that we are witnessing by Kobe Bryant."


Doug Collins:

"He's incredible tonight. You sit back and watch a performance like this. He's made every kind of shot that there is."

Comeback + Game-Winner (2008):

https://youtu.be/ICpiCZxB_0Y

39 + 4th Quarter Takeover (2008):

https://youtu.be/5aXVxcLm2qQ

[HOoopCityJones]

What I love about this debate is how the Duncan/Spurs fans really only started talking all that shit once The Spurs faced The Heat in the Finals and choked. But Duncan didn't have any part in that, just the win the very next year that he didn't win FMVP for. It's a joke.

[kennethgriffin]

the rivalry was 4-2


kobe coming out ontop

the rings are 5 vs 4.5

kobe coming out ontop

its pretty damn simple.


kobe would never be the 2nd banana to tony parker at age 30

[IllegalD]

What I love about this debate is how the Duncan/Spurs fans really only started talking all that shit once The Spurs faced The Heat in the Finals and choked. But Duncan didn't have any part in that, just the win the very next year that he didn't win FMVP for. It's a joke.

Exactly.

So much sh*t talking about how Kobe's first rings were really Shaq's, yet Duncan hasn't been the Finals MVP of his championship teams in a decade! :roll:

[Hey Yo]

Comeback + Game-Winner (2008):

https://youtu.be/ICpiCZxB_0Y

39 + 4th Quarter Takeover (2008):

https://youtu.be/5aXVxcLm2qQ
The above was the only thing that needed to be posted.

That was the only time they faced each other in the postseason with Kobe being first option / Kobe's team.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe's destroyed the quote on quote best Team of this generation his entire career and has just as many championships playing a more selfish brand of Basketball.

Haters mad as fucc right now.

[dubeta]

Exactly.

So much sh*t talking about how Kobe's first rings were really Shaq's, yet Duncan hasn't been the Finals MVP of his championship teams in a decade! :roll:

Neither Kobe or Duncan were really championship 1st option material

[HOoopCityJones]

Neither Kobe or Duncan were really championship 1st option material

Someone's alittle upset their boyfriend doesn't belong in this conversation.

[$LakerGold]

I just found out that they will be playing 4 times this season. I don't ever want it to end. :(

[dubeta]

Someone's alittle upset their boyfriend doesn't belong in this conversation.

?

LeBron 2/2 100%

Duncan 3/5 60%





Kobe 2/5 40%

[bballnoob1192]

Or the spurs were focused on shaq and let kobe beat them.
and he did. lol what your point. Im pretty sure his career avg against the spurs in the playoffs is somewhere around 35-5-5. that's rapage

[Kawhi]

the rivalry was 4-2


kobe coming out ontop

the rings are 5 vs 4.5

kobe coming out ontop

its pretty damn simple.


kobe would never be the 2nd banana to tony parker at age 30
Funny you should say that, 2nd banana - which apparently means you only get rewarded half a ring. Let's take a look at the facts:

Parker in the 07 finals: 25 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists per game
Duncan in the 07 finals: 18 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 2 blocks per game.

One who has an objective look at these stats, would argue that Duncan had more impact on the series, thus should have been rewarded with the MVP award. But since I'm not too desperate, we'll give him the 0.5 rings.

Now let's take a look at Kobe

Kobe in the 00 finals: 16 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block per game
Shaq in the 00 finals: 38 points, 17 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 blocks per game

Going by your logic, Kobe should be rewarded only half a ring. Therefore, it's Kobe 4.5 and Duncan 4.5. Unfortunately, were not finished.

Kobe in the 01 finals: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists per game
Shaq in the 01 finals: 33 points, 16 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 blocks per game

Another clear 2nd banana ring. If we go by the same agenda, this is another 0.5 rings for Kobe. Meaning it's 4.5 for Duncan, and only 4 for Kobe. What? There's more?

Kobe in the 02 finals: 26 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals per game
Shaq in the 02 finals: 36 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks per game

2nd banana. Duncan 4.5, Kobe 3.5. I could go on, and argue for being a 2nd banana to Pau, but I won't let you go through that.

Thanks for playing.

P.S: KoMe is the worst player in the league right now.

[Smoke117]

Or the spurs were focused on shaq and let kobe beat them.

Pretty much.

[HOoopCityJones]

and he did. lol what your point. Im pretty sure his career avg against the spurs in the playoffs is somewhere around 35-5-5. that's rapage

Still holds the highest average of pts in their building if I'm not mistaken.

[sportjames23]

?

LeBron 2/6 33%

Duncan 3/5 60%





Kobe 2/5 40%



I know math isn't your subject, so I made the correction for you.

[SpaceJam]

Lots of mis-information in that article.

The main being Kobe's Lakers against Tim's Spurs.

The only time they faced each other in the postseason, with Kobe being first option, was in 2008.

The actual rivalry in the early 2000's was Shaq's Lakers vs Tim's Spurs.

Take the hater glasses off for a second and stop reading so much into it....

They are talking about a Kobe Duncan rivalry, Kobe played for the Lakers they aren't going to say Shaq's Lakers :facepalm

Could be a freaking Derek Fisher Tim Duncan rivalry and they'd say Fisher's Lakers

[Bankaii]

I know math isn't your subject, so I made the correction for you.
It obviously isn't yours either, idiot.

If Lebrons changes so does Kobe's and Duncan's.

[DMAVS41]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14334667/kobe-bryant-tim-duncan-compared-their-nba-peer-group

[rmt]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14334667/kobe-bryant-tim-duncan-compared-their-nba-peer-group

And it's measuring ORtg - not DRtg.

[SexSymbol]

Or the spurs were focused on shaq and let kobe beat them.
very smart strategy it seems

[DMAVS41]

And it's measuring ORtg - not DRtg.

Yea, but I'm not sure what is going on there. Not sure what ortg formula they are using...not the bballreference one...

Dirk has been a far better offensive player than Duncan so far this year. So I have no idea what ortg they are referring to.

Dirk is at 117 on reference and Duncan is at 109...

So, have to kind of take that one with a grain of salt unless I'm missing something

[34-24 Footwork]

That 48pt 16reb game from kobe was ridiculous. It was against David Robinson and Duncan.

The play I remember the most is the put back dunk.

Lol @ the "let Kobe get his" excuse being played. He's been the only player in history that has KILLED them for a decade straight. Bruce bowen or not....

[DaOldLion]

Lots of mis-information in that article.

The main being Kobe's Lakers against Tim's Spurs.

The only time they faced each other in the postseason, with Kobe being first option, was in 2008.

The actual rivalry in the early 2000's was Shaq's Lakers vs Tim's Spurs.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

in what world was Kobe not the first option against the Spurs in the playoffs from 01-04?

[dubeta]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

in what world was Kobe not the first option against the Spurs in the playoffs from 01-04?


The world where he was Shaqs sidekick


Kobe's never won a championship as a 1st option

[Showtime2001]

The world where he was Shaqs sidekick
http://s15.postimg.org/604v5qxjv/10818979_10204437623194896_232395890_n.jpg



Kobe's never won a championship as a 1st option
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/NBA+Finals+Game+7+Boston+Celtics+v+Los+Angeles+Sj4 3T5Cl5okl.jpg
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/270395-2/Kobe+Bryant+hoists+his+NBA+Finals+MVP+trophy.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

That 48pt 16reb game from kobe was ridiculous. It was against David Robinson and Duncan.

The play I remember the most is the put back dunk.

Lol @ the "let Kobe get his" excuse being played. He's been the only player in history that has KILLED them for a decade straight. Bruce bowen or not....

there was no 16 rebs, that was the Kings game :facepalm

[34-24 Footwork]

there was no 16 rebs, that was the Kings game :facepalm


My bad. Got it confused with the 45 pts and 10reb game. How mad are you at this very second? :lol

[Lebronxrings]

good second options.

[DaOldLion]

The world where he was Shaqs sidekick


Kobe's never won a championship as a 1st option

Kobe from 01-04 outscored Shaq in every series against the Spurs. with a 3-1 record overall

[DMAVS41]

That 48pt 16reb game from kobe was ridiculous. It was against David Robinson and Duncan.

The play I remember the most is the put back dunk.

Lol @ the "let Kobe get his" excuse being played. He's been the only player in history that has KILLED them for a decade straight. Bruce bowen or not....

He killed them for a decade?

Dude....he went 4-2 in the playoffs against the Spurs. He had Shaq for 5 of those series and in 08...Manu was injured and that Spurs team on the perimeter was a joke without Manu. They were playing old Finley and Brent Barry heavy minutes.

So got the better of? Sure, but killed? Just no.

Kobe is 21-29 against Duncan in the regular season for his career
Kobe is 18-12 against Duncan in the playoffs for his career

4-2 in series

Like...sorry, that just isn't killing....again, he had ****ing Shaq for 5 of those series...and got lucky breaks like the Fisher shot and Manu injury as well

The fact that you idiotic Kobe fans hang your hat on a career losing record against Duncan overall should be telling to you

[Mr Feeny]

He killed them for a decade?

Dude....he went 4-2 in the playoffs against the Spurs. He had Shaq for 5 of those series and in 08...Manu was injured and that Spurs team on the perimeter was a joke without Manu. They were playing old Finley and Brent Barry heavy minutes.

So got the better of? Sure, but killed? Just no.

Kobe is 21-29 against Duncan in the regular season for his career
Kobe is 18-12 against Duncan in the playoffs for his career

4-2 in series

Like...sorry, that just isn't killing....again, he had ****ing Shaq for 5 of those series...and got lucky breaks like the Fisher shot and Manu injury as well

The fact that you idiotic Kobe fans hang your hat on a career losing record against Duncan overall should be telling to you

This. It's surprising how Kobe fanboys get simple facts wrong. Duncan has a better career h2h record. There's nothing confusing there.
Dirk and Duncan are still contributing to their teams while a certain 37 year old is humiliating himself and chucking at the rate of 32%fg while leading his team to a 3-21 record.

[sportjames23]

It obviously isn't yours either, idiot.

If Lebrons changes so does Kobe's and Duncan's.


How am I wrong, ****tard?

Bron stans are the most stupid bitches around.

[dhsilv]

very smart strategy it seems

Nobody else seemed to have a solution that was better, thus their 3 straight titles and 4 finals in 5 years....

[dhsilv]

That 48pt 16reb game from kobe was ridiculous. It was against David Robinson and Duncan.

The play I remember the most is the put back dunk.

Lol @ the "let Kobe get his" excuse being played. He's been the only player in history that has KILLED them for a decade straight. Bruce bowen or not....

Nobody is ignoring that kobe played well, but are you really going to tell me that the spurs guarded Kobe as if he was their biggest fear?

[dhsilv]

He killed them for a decade?

Dude....he went 4-2 in the playoffs against the Spurs. He had Shaq for 5 of those series and in 08...Manu was injured and that Spurs team on the perimeter was a joke without Manu. They were playing old Finley and Brent Barry heavy minutes.

So got the better of? Sure, but killed? Just no.

Kobe is 21-29 against Duncan in the regular season for his career
Kobe is 18-12 against Duncan in the playoffs for his career

4-2 in series

Like...sorry, that just isn't killing....again, he had ****ing Shaq for 5 of those series...and got lucky breaks like the Fisher shot and Manu injury as well

The fact that you idiotic Kobe fans hang your hat on a career losing record against Duncan overall should be telling to you

Always fun to add in 2013 where kobe got hurt, his team was still swept and likely the results would have been the same if he'd been healthy.

The problem with the playoffs is that the lakers always ran into the spurs on the way to their titles. The spurs didn't always run into the lakers going for theirs.

[DMAVS41]

Always fun to add in 2013 where kobe got hurt, his team was still swept and likely the results would have been the same if he'd been healthy.

The problem with the playoffs is that the lakers always ran into the spurs on the way to their titles. The spurs didn't always run into the lakers going for theirs.

Exactly.

Like....if Kobe is healthy in 13 and they played them in 07....OMG!...it's tied 4-4

Just a stupid argument...especially when it wasn't even one sided

I'd get it if the Lakers were like 6-0 in the playoffs or something, but they were 4-2....had Shaq for 5 of those series...and then in 08 the team without Manu simply wasn't good enough

A team that had;

Brent Barry, Finley, Oberto, Udoka, and ancient Robert Horry....

So it was the above...with Duncan/Parker/Bowen...and an injured Manu

But yea....lets act like that was some shocking performance.

[SouBeachTalents]

Exactly.

Like....if Kobe is healthy in 13 and they played them in 07....OMG!...it's tied 4-4

Just a stupid argument...especially when it wasn't even one sided

I'd get it if the Lakers were like 6-0 in the playoffs or something, but they were 4-2....had Shaq for 5 of those series...and then in 08 the team without Manu simply wasn't good enough

A team that had;

Brent Barry, Finley, Oberto, Udoka, and ancient Robert Horry....

So it was the above...with Duncan/Parker/Bowen...and an injured Manu

But yea....lets act like that was some shocking performance.

That rivalry definitely wasn't one sided, you were one shot away from a couple of those series going the other way. Their argument is individually, Kobe beasted on them every time they played

'99: 21/7/4 on 45%
'01: 33/7/7 on 51%
'02: 26/5/5 on 46%
'03: 32/5/4 on 43%
'04: 26/6/6 on 46%
'08: 29/6/4 on 53%

Those are consistently very good-great performances

[Bosnian Sajo]

Lots of mis-information in that article.

The main being Kobe's Lakers against Tim's Spurs.

The only time they faced each other in the postseason, with Kobe being first option, was in 2008.

The actual rivalry in the early 2000's was Shaq's Lakers vs Tim's Spurs.

In that case, you can't even count that post season match since at the time Tony Parker was the top dog on Spurs (2007 Finals MVP).


Dumb comment.

[dhsilv]

In that case, you can't even count that post season match since at the time Tony Parker was the top dog on Spurs (2007 Finals MVP).


Dumb comment.

Parker was not close to Duncan in 07. Use your damn brain, if you have one.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Parker was not close to Duncan in 07. Use your damn brain, if you have one.

Do you have a brain? Reread the post you quoted, smartass. *IN THAT CASE*


Please don't bs, it has been stated in this thread multiple times that since Kobe didn't win FMVP his first 3 titles, those series don't really count as being Kobe vs Duncan. Using that same logic, the same can be said for 2007. You can't pick and choose, like you guys said it isn't opinion based, it is factual knowledge that Duncan was not the MVP of his team in 2007 or 2014, or anywhere between that to be honest. And I'm guessing you're too young to remember this, but back in 05 everyone was saying Manu got robbed for FMVP and that Duncan didn't deserve that one.



You think that is dumb af? Then stop talking shit about the years Kobe played with Shaq, yall sound dumb afffff and you don't even recognize when someone else using the same logic :facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

Do you have a brain? Reread the post you quoted, smartass. *IN THAT CASE*


Please don't bs, it has been stated in this thread multiple times that since Kobe didn't win FMVP his first 3 titles, those series don't really count as being Kobe vs Duncan. Using that same logic, the same can be said for 2007. You can't pick and choose, like you guys said it isn't opinion based, it is factual knowledge that Duncan was not the MVP of his team in 2007 or 2014, or anywhere between that to be honest. And I'm guessing you're too young to remember this, but back in 05 everyone was saying Manu got robbed for FMVP and that Duncan didn't deserve that one.



You think that is dumb af? Then stop talking shit about the years Kobe played with Shaq, yall sound dumb afffff and you don't even recognize when someone else using the same logic :facepalm

No, it's because Shaq was better than Kobe those years. Duncan was literally better than Parker every step of the season in '07 besides the Finals. Finals MVP usually does indicate the best player on the team, but not always

[34-24 Footwork]

Exactly.

Like....if Kobe is healthy in 13 and they played them in 07....OMG!...it's tied 4-4

Just a stupid argument...especially when it wasn't even one sided

I'd get it if the Lakers were like 6-0 in the playoffs or something, but they were 4-2....had Shaq for 5 of those series...and then in 08 the team without Manu simply wasn't good enough

A team that had;

Brent Barry, Finley, Oberto, Udoka, and ancient Robert Horry....

So it was the above...with Duncan/Parker/Bowen...and an injured Manu

But yea....lets act like that was some shocking performance.



Lol! You're visibly upset, little bro. Kobe held his own vs the Spurs. Tell me why that enrages you.

By the way,

ITT, we went from people bringing up Kobe's Finals numbers even though they both play in the same conference and can't play in the finals....to flat out disregarding his numbers against the Spurs in the playoffs....to bringing up regular season records against one another.

Youre carrying that goal post around like emotional baggage.

[Bosnian Sajo]

No, it's because Shaq was better than Kobe those years. Duncan was literally better than Parker every step of the season in '07 besides the Finals. Finals MVP usually does indicate the best player on the team, but not always

Not against the Spurs, he wasn't. Stop picking and choosing, this is exactly what tf I'm talking about.

[34-24 Footwork]

Still waiting on someone (preferably one of the posters who mentioned it) to break down how the Spurs "gifted" a 22 year old Kobe 33pts, 7reb and 7ast per game in the western conference finals :lol :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Not against the Spurs, he wasn't. Stop picking and choosing, this is exactly what tf I'm talking about.

Lol, who said anything about playing the Spurs? I was just disputing your claim Parker was the Spurs best player in '07 when Duncan was clearly superior for all but 4 games. Kobe always had huge series against the Spurs

[Gus Hemmingway]

This. It's surprising how Kobe fanboys get simple facts wrong. Duncan has a better career h2h record. There's nothing confusing there.
Dirk and Duncan are still contributing to their teams while a certain 37 year old is humiliating himself and chucking at the rate of 32%fg while leading his team to a 3-21 record.


couldn't have said it better :cheers: :cheers:

[Bosnian Sajo]

Lol, who said anything about playing the Spurs? I was just disputing your claim Parker was the Spurs best player in '07 when Duncan was clearly superior for all but 4 games. Kobe always had huge series against the Spurs

Are you ****ing serious? That is what we are discussing in this thread, what are you talking about? Did you read the title of the thread before entering it? Kobe-Duncan rivalry, aka Lakers-Spurs rivalry, what did you think we were talking about?


God damn, some people just LOVVVEEE to argue no matter if they know what the other person is talking about or not, smfh. Please don't respond to me, my post wasn't even intended for you in the first place, apparently you're not a Spurs homer/Laker hater.

[imnew09]

Yay, let's discredit Kobe because the GOAT Coach Pop, GOAT PF Duncan words are non sense, but let's listen to our "EXPERTS" ISH Members that Kobe suck!!!!


Whatever floats your boat, fken v!rgin haters :lol :lol

[DMAVS41]

Lol! You're visibly upset, little bro. Kobe held his own vs the Spurs. Tell me why that enrages you.

By the way,

ITT, we went from people bringing up Kobe's Finals numbers even though they both play in the same conference and can't play in the finals....to flat out disregarding his numbers against the Spurs in the playoffs....to bringing up regular season records against one another.

Youre carrying that goal post around like emotional baggage.

LOL

He did way more than hold his own. Kobe was very good, great, against the Spurs.

Who are you arguing with?

[Anaximandro1]

Title Runs

VORP -> Value Over Replacement Player
WS -> Win Shares

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mUlqUk33DFk/VmwX0VdK42I/AAAAAAAAFBU/vOOsf3fIG8Y/s1600/201.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NsGb3UIjxq4/VmwX0XYHuFI/AAAAAAAAFBQ/C439ZD2CGDA/s1600/200.jpg



Duncan vs Kobe - Playoff Career

Shaq/Gasol/Fisher career with the Lakers

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YEBBYtDCPjQ/VmwX0Zik0TI/AAAAAAAAFBM/D2nDI2KLW5A/s1600/202.jpg


Play-by-Play
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QtqPT2lSPbQ/VmwX06W_27I/AAAAAAAAFBc/_lz6ppkgPSY/s1600/203.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Atyg-CSWXyY/VmyBYZDBUzI/AAAAAAAAFCA/TpgCtGujBoc/s1600/205.jpg

[STATUTORY]

That rivalry definitely wasn't one sided, you were one shot away from a couple of those series going the other way. Their argument is individually, Kobe beasted on them every time they played

'99: 21/7/4 on 45%
'01: 33/7/7 on 51%
'02: 26/5/5 on 46%
'03: 32/5/4 on 43%
'04: 26/6/6 on 46%
'08: 29/6/4 on 53%

Those are consistently very good-great performances

certain posters avoiding this post like a plague

[DMAVS41]

That rivalry definitely wasn't one sided, you were one shot away from a couple of those series going the other way. Their argument is individually, Kobe beasted on them every time they played

'99: 21/7/4 on 45%
'01: 33/7/7 on 51%
'02: 26/5/5 on 46%
'03: 32/5/4 on 43%
'04: 26/6/6 on 46%
'08: 29/6/4 on 53%

Those are consistently very good-great performances

Sure....

Kobe averaged 28/6/5 and shot 47/35/73 for his career in the playoffs against the Spurs

Duncan averaged 25/14/4 and shot 47/25/71 for his career in the playoffs against Kobe

So...I just don't see the edge. Nobody is saying Kobe played poorly....and it's almost always used as an argument for Kobe over Duncan....and that "edge" just doesn't exist in level of play

Duncan was as good or better than Kobe overall imo

So I don't really get the argument. Unless one also just says "Duncan killed the Lakers for over a decade"...which I don't think I've ever seen someone say...but would absolutely be justified in saying so if we are talking about the individual and not the teams

[34-24 Footwork]

Sure....

Kobe averaged 28/6/5 and shot 47/35/73 for his career in the playoffs against the Spurs

Duncan averaged 25/14/4 and shot 47/25/71 for his career in the playoffs against Kobe

So...I just don't see the edge. Nobody is saying Kobe played poorly....and it's almost always used as an argument for Kobe over Duncan....and that "edge" just doesn't exist in level of play

Duncan was as good or better than Kobe overall imo

So I don't really get the argument. Unless one also just says "Duncan killed the Lakers for over a decade"...which I don't think I've ever seen someone say...but would absolutely be justified in saying so if we are talking about the individual and not the teams


You finally threw in the towel after getting annihilated by every decent poster on the forum.

First time seeing you give kobe credit. Now let's revisit your thread about Dirk being better than Kobe so we can put your head back on the chopping block.

[DMAVS41]

You finally threw in the towel after getting annihilated by every decent poster on the forum.

First time seeing you give kobe credit. Now let's revisit your thread about Dirk being better than Kobe so we can put your head back on the chopping block.

I'm not talking about anything with you if you consistently misrepresent my positions.

Find me where I said Kobe was bad against the Spurs...you won't find it. All I have ever said is that it was a terrible argument. Which it was/is...you are the one getting annihilated and you don't even realize it.

Notice how you and your band of morons always have to change the arguments?

Jesus christ this place is so ****ing terrible now

[ShaqTwizzle]

Kobe beasted on them every time they played

'99: 21/7/4 on 45%
'01: 33/7/7 on 51%
'02: 26/5/5 on 46%
'03: 32/5/4 on 43%
'04: 26/6/6 on 46%
'08: 29/6/4 on 53%

Those are consistently very good-great performances

Not really.
01 was a great performance.
08 was a great performance.
04 was a good performance.

99 was a terrible performance (4 game series)
21 / 3.5-apg on 50%TS
18 / 2-apg on 48%TS (over last 2 games)

02 was a very mediocre performance.
26 / 4.8-apg on 49%TS

03 wasn't a great performance.
Very inconsistent.
---
32 / 1.5-apg on 47%TS + 5 TO's per game over first 2 games (both L's).
20 / 6-ast on 50%TS + 7 TOV in G6 (elimination game).

He was great in the middle 3 games but terrible in the first 2 + the elimination game.

Not a bad series but not a great one either.
____

Also I wouldn't quickly agree that Kobe was better then Shaq in the 01 or 02 series.

In 02 they were both mediocre.
Not a big stat difference and obviously Shaq faced far more defensive pressure and anchored the Laker defense.

In 01 Kobe had slightly better counting stats but those stats don't take into account defensive impact (huge edge Shaq) or the fact that the Spurs defense was mainly focused on O'neal.
Plus of course Shaq was facing D-Rob + Duncan while Kobe was beating up on maybe the worst perimeter defense ever.

People assuming Kobe was more valuable in those series are just ignoring context, defense and everything but the most basic counting stats (which barely favor Kobe anyway).
Kobe fans aren't interested in reality though...
Anyway all I am saying is for any fan without a clear agenda it is debatable.
Shaq was arguably more valuable in both series.

[ArbitraryWater]

That rivalry definitely wasn't one sided, you were one shot away from a couple of those series going the other way. Their argument is individually, Kobe beasted on them every time they played

'99: 21/7/4 on 45%
'01: 33/7/7 on 51%
'02: 26/5/5 on 46%
'03: 32/5/4 on 43%
'04: 26/6/6 on 46%
'08: 29/6/4 on 53%

Those are consistently very good-great performances

Why did it take Kobe so damn long to get good.. terrible in his 3rd year :biggums:

[34-24 Footwork]

Why did it take Kobe so damn long to get good.. terrible in his 3rd year :biggums:


Same reason why it took Lebron a fvckin decade to win a ring.

[ArbitraryWater]

Same reason why it took Lebron a fvckin decade to win a ring.

which is? Lack of a proper team?

Is your dumbass over looking the fact they had 4 all-stars in '98?

Some of you filthy ***** shouldn't be discussing this sport at all :lol

[tpols]

which is? Lack of a proper team?

Is your dumbass over looking the fact they had 4 all-stars in '98?

Some of you filthy ***** shouldn't be discussing this sport at all :lol

you just answered your own previous question. They already had an experienced allstar SG..


You cant praise Lebrons early production which was made possible by being on a shit team with no options in front of him, and then cry he has no help at the same time.

And vice versa, you cant criticize Kobe's lack of early production when he didn't have the same opportunity to play as much as he would on a bad team..

[DaOldLion]

every time the Lakers beat the Spurs in the playoffs from 01-04

3-1 Record


2001

Kobe: 33/7/7 on 57% TS

Shaq: 27/13/2 on 54% TS

Advantage = Kobe

2002

Kobe: 26/5/5 on 49% TS

Shaq: 21/12/3 on 49% TS

Advantage = Kobe

2004

Kobe: 26/6/6 on 53% TS

Shaq: 22/15/2 on 60% TS

Advantage = Close, Shaq averaged 14ppg in the last two games while Kobe led the team in scoring and assit

[DaOldLion]

So ShaqTwizzle accoring to you Kobe putting up 26 ppg on 49% TS is a "very mediocre" performance but in that same series Shaq had 21 ppg on 49% TS


I don't know why people are trying to act like Shaq was the go to guy in these Spurs series.. HE WASN'T... Kobe led the team in FGA, points, and assist in every series they played against the Spurs from 01-04. He was clearly the first option in those series

[34-24 Footwork]

The same people that ask why Kobe didn't do good in his first three years are the same people that criticize his "numbers" against Indiana even after Jalen Rose intentionally injured Kobe. They are also the same people that criticize Kobe for getting swept by the spurs in the 2013 1st round. They either have ZERO context or they REALLY hate kobe...or both.

[DMAVS41]

you just answered your own previous question. They already had an experienced allstar SG..


You cant praise Lebrons early production which was made possible by being on a shit team with no options in front of him, and then cry he has no help at the same time.

And vice versa, you cant criticize Kobe's lack of early production when he didn't have the same opportunity to play as much as he would on a bad team..

While most of this is true, you also can't deny how much better a player Lebron was out of the gate than Kobe was.

[34-24 Footwork]

So ShaqTwizzle accoring to you Kobe putting up 26 ppg on 49% TS is a "very mediocre" performance but in that same series Shaq had 21 ppg on 49% TS


I don't know why people are trying to act like Shaq was the go to guy in these Spurs series.. HE WASN'T... Kobe led the team in FGA, points, and assist in every series they played against the Spurs from 01-04. He was clearly the first option in those series


Clear hypocrisy across the board when it comes to Kobe. Don't be fooled. He's not arguing for Shaq as the first option more than he's arguing that Kobe "couldn't have been" the first option.

His hatred for Kobe runs deeper than his fanboyism for Shaq.

[Hey Yo]

you just answered your own previous question. They already had an experienced allstar SG..


You cant praise Lebrons early production which was made possible by being on a shit team with no options in front of him, and then cry he has no help at the same time.

And vice versa, you cant criticize Kobe's lack of early production when he didn't have the same opportunity to play as much as he would on a bad team..
You definitely can criticize him because he manipulated his way to the Lakers on draft day and knew he was going to ride the bench once there...... instead of choosing to be a starter as a rookie for NJ, who was told Kobe wouldn't sign with them.

[34-24 Footwork]

While most of this is true, you also can't deny how much better a player Lebron was out of the gate than Kobe was.

Kobe wasn't handed the keys to a franchise like jordan or Bran was. His situation was different. He was definitely a better player, but he didn't get playing time.

[DaOldLion]

Clear hypocrisy across the board when it comes to Kobe. Don't be fooled. He's not arguing for Shaq as the first option more than he's arguing that Kobe "couldn't have been" the first option.

His hatred for Kobe runs deeper than his fanboyism for Shaq.

I just don't understand how Kobe can lead the team in scoring, assist, and be the clear cut leader in shots attempted and shots made and still not be considered the first option for each series in which he led his team in scoring, FGA, FGM and assist

pretty hilarious

[DMAVS41]

Kobe wasn't handed the keys to a franchise like jordan or Bran was. His situation was different. He was definitely a better player, but he didn't get playing time.

There is no way rookie and 2nd year Kobe could have been the player Lebron was.

Absolutely no way...sorry

[34-24 Footwork]

You definitely can criticize him because he manipulated his way to the Lakers on draft day and knew he was going to ride the bench once there...... instead of choosing to be a starter as a rookie for NJ.


History disproves that Kobe manipulated the draft. You're giving way too much credit to a 17 year old kid to manipulate a billion dollar organization , don't you think?

[ShaqTwizzle]

So ShaqTwizzle accoring to you Kobe putting up 26 ppg on 49% TS is a "very mediocre" performance but in that same series Shaq had 21 ppg on 49% TS

Yeah, and...?
I never said Shaq was good in that series.
They were both shitty.

[34-24 Footwork]

There is no way rookie and 2nd year Kobe could have been the player Lebron was.

Absolutely no way...sorry

Lol. I don't do hypotheticals. But kobe scoring relatively easily against Pippen tells me that he wasn't as bad as you're trying to make him out to be. Lol.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=thqXXGzh6Ws

[ShaqTwizzle]

2003 Kobe in the first 12 games of the season without Shaq.
29-ppg on .498%TS

Kobe had Iverson level efficiency before the rule changes without big daddy Shaq drawing triple teams and getting him easy shots.

Hell even with Shaq he shot 49%TS against the West in their 02 run.
Imagine without him...

:pimp:

[DMAVS41]

Lol. I don't do hypotheticals. But kobe scoring relatively easily against Pippen tells me that he wasn't as bad as you're trying to make him out to be. Lol.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=thqXXGzh6Ws

You don't do hypotheticals?

Yet you are making an argument based on a hypothetical of Kobe getting more playing time and chances...right?

As bad as what? I think he was a near high school aged kid that wasn't ready to be a starter in the NBA his first 1.5 years or so in the league. Not sure that is "bad"....

He just wasn't the beast, NBA ready, player that Lebron was from day 1.

Like...you are really disputing that Lebron was more ready for the NBA than Kobe?

And you expect to actually have a conversation?

[DaOldLion]

Yeah, and...?
I never said Shaq was good in that series.
They were both shitty.

What a dummy.

you said that 04 was a "good performance" and that 02 was a"very mediocre performance"

Kobe against the Spurs in 02 = 26/5/5 on 46% FG

Kobe against the Spurs in 04 = 26/6/6 on 46% FG

All you did was look at TS% to determine whether or not Kobe played well. He didn't attempt as many FT in 02 as he did in 04 and in 02 he had a game where he missed 6 FTA which hurt his TS% because he didn't get to the line as much

Kobe played really well in 02, he led the team in scoring for 4/5 games and beat the Spurs by himself in the 4th of game 4. Had 12 points in the 4th, was the only Laker to score in the last 4 minutes, hit the game winning shot..

The way you try to downplay Kobe in every thread discussing these runs is hilarious. Yes Shaq was the better player, but Kobe was always the better player during the Spurs series from 01-04 and bailed the Lakers out time and time again.

[Hey Yo]

History disproves that Kobe manipulated the draft. You're giving way too much credit to a 17 year old kid to manipulate a billion dollar organization , don't you think?
History proves that Calipari and the Nets wanted to draft Kobe 8th overall but were told he would not sign with them. He could have started right away and tried to build a contender........

but instead demanded to play with the contending Lakers who also happened to be the 2nd most successful franchise in NBA history.

LeBron took on the challenge building garbage Cleveland into a contender , while Kobe took on the challenge of the bench and keeping splinters out of his ass.

[DaOldLion]

Imagine without him...

:pimp:

We don't have to imagine. Without Shaq, Kobe won more rings than Shaq won without Kobe.

[AirBonner]

What rivalry? Duncan is achoring a goat defense at 39 while Kobe is chucking his team to a draft pick :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

You don't do hypotheticals?

Yet you are making an argument based on a hypothetical of Kobe getting more playing time and chances...right?

As bad as what? I think he was a near high school aged kid that wasn't ready to be a starter in the NBA his first 1.5 years or so in the league. Not sure that is "bad"....

He just wasn't the beast, NBA ready, player that Lebron was from day 1.

Like...you are really disputing that Lebron was more ready for the NBA than Kobe?

And you expect to actually have a conversation?

Lol. I don't do hypotheticals. I said that Kobe was a better player at 18-19 years old than Lebron was minus the playing time. That's my opinion....not a hypothetical.

[DMAVS41]

Lol. I don't do hypotheticals. I said that Kobe was a better player at 18-19 years old than Lebron was minus the playing time. That's my opinion....not a hypothetical.

Yes it is.

Because there is nothing, at all, that supports that.

It's fine to have your own opinion...I mean, it's a really ignorant one...but sure.

[34-24 Footwork]

Yes it is.

Because there is nothing, at all, that supports that.

It's fine to have your own opinion...I mean, it's a really ignorant one...but sure.

:cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

you just answered your own previous question. They already had an experienced allstar SG..


You cant praise Lebrons early production which was made possible by being on a shit team with no options in front of him, and then cry he has no help at the same time.

And vice versa, you cant criticize Kobe's lack of early production when he didn't have the same opportunity to play as much as he would on a bad team..

I'm not praising any "production" here, I praise him, his state as a player, stop acting like he would look like 97'-99' Bean on a good team :facepalm

Again, there is no middle ground for you guys... hyperbole til the end of days, bunch of jackasses, look for another sport tpols.

[dhsilv]

Do you have a brain? Reread the post you quoted, smartass. *IN THAT CASE*


Please don't bs, it has been stated in this thread multiple times that since Kobe didn't win FMVP his first 3 titles, those series don't really count as being Kobe vs Duncan. Using that same logic, the same can be said for 2007. You can't pick and choose, like you guys said it isn't opinion based, it is factual knowledge that Duncan was not the MVP of his team in 2007 or 2014, or anywhere between that to be honest. And I'm guessing you're too young to remember this, but back in 05 everyone was saying Manu got robbed for FMVP and that Duncan didn't deserve that one.



You think that is dumb af? Then stop talking shit about the years Kobe played with Shaq, yall sound dumb afffff and you don't even recognize when someone else using the same logic :facepalm

The finals mvp is meaningless.

[ShaqTwizzle]

you said that 04 was a "good performance" and that 02 was a"very mediocre performance"

Kobe against the Spurs in 02 = 26/5/5 on 46% FG
Kobe against the Spurs in 04 = 26/6/6 on 46% FG


02 : 26.2 / 4.8-apg on .486%TS
04 : 26.3 / 5.8-apg on .534%TS

A nearly 5% difference in efficiency is a pretty huge difference plus an extra assist.
And I didn't say Kobe was "great" in that 04 series (I said good) so a big downgrade from that can be labeled as mediocre.


Kobe played really well in 02

No he didn't.
He put up solid but not spectacular volume on terrible efficiency.

Duncan badly outplayed both him and Shaq.

Laker's only won because they had a much better overall team.
Much better overall talent.

And I don't care that he played well in the 4th because a game is not just that one quarter.
You judge a performance over all 4 quarters not just one...


but Kobe was always the better player during the Spurs series from 01-04

Disagree.
01 & 02 are completely debatable unless you ignore all context and the defensive end of the floor.
03 is Shaq by a landslide.
04 is pretty clearly Shaq also.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Kobe won more rings than Shaq won without Kobe.

Joke of an argument.
Let Shaq play with Jordan in the 90's and then from 00-02 let him play with young Kobe + Odom and how many Rings does he win?

That is the kind of cast luck Kobe had. Give Shaq the same and he has 8+ Rings.

That argument is akin to saying that Pippen > Jordan had he won a Ring in 00 on the Blazers.

[SouBeachTalents]

02 : 26.2 / 4.8-apg on .486%TS
04 : 26.3 / 5.8-apg on .534%TS

A nearly 5% difference in efficiency is a pretty huge difference plus an extra assist.
And I didn't say Kobe was "great" in that 04 series (I said good) so a big downgrade from that can be labeled as mediocre.



No he didn't.
He put up solid but not spectacular volume on terrible efficiency.

Duncan badly outplayed both him and Shaq.

Laker's only won because they had a much better overall team.
Much better overall talent.

And I don't care that he played well in the 4th because a game is not just that one quarter.
You judge a performance over all 4 quarters not just one...



Disagree.
01 & 02 are completely debatable unless you ignore all context and the defensive end of the floor.
03 is Shaq by a landslide.
04 is pretty clearly Shaq also.

Duncan's efficiency in '02 was abysmal, dude shot 43% from the field

[ShaqTwizzle]

Duncan's efficiency in '02 was abysmal, dude shot 43% from the field

Duncan put up 29 / 17 / 4.6 / 3.2-bpg on 52%TS in that series.
Kobe : 26 / 5.8 / 4.8 on 49%TS...

He absolutely owned both Kobe & Shaq.
He just had no one else to rely on.

Even as a Shaq fan I can admit Duncan was the MVP of that series.

[DaOldLion]

Disagree.
01 & 02 are completely debatable unless you ignore all context and the defensive end of the floor.
03 is Shaq by a landslide.
04 is pretty clearly Shaq also.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

01 isn't debatable at all

Kobe won game 4 by himself in the 4th, hit the GW, scored 12 points, only laker to score in the last 4 minutes. More points and assist on the same efficiency as Shaq

03 Kobe as playing with a torn labrum..

04 Kobe was again better

[DaOldLion]

Joke of an argument.
Let Shaq play with Jordan in the 90's and then from 00-02 let him play with young Kobe + Odom and how many Rings does he win?

That is the kind of cast luck Kobe had. Give Shaq the same and he has 8+ Rings.

That argument is akin to saying that Pippen > Jordan had he won a Ring in 00 on the Blazers.


Shaq played with 2 of the 3 greatest shooting guards of all time

he also had first team all nba guard Penny Hardaway for b2b years


Kobe never had another all nba first team big besides Shaq. Meanwhile Shaq had prime Wade, prime Kobe and prime Penny

That'd be like Kobe playing with prime Shaq, Prime Duncan and prime Amare :oldlol: :oldlol:

[DaOldLion]

Shaq made the finals as an all nba 3rd team player with the Magic.. meanwhile Penny was first team all nba

Shaq played with prime Wade and one of the best versions of Kobe of all time

played with Nash, Big 3 Celtics and Lebron to wind down his career

not enough help doe :lol :lol

[dhsilv]

Duncan put up 29 / 17 / 4.6 / 3.2-bpg on 52%TS in that series.
Kobe : 26 / 5.8 / 4.8 on 49%TS...

He absolutely owned both Kobe & Shaq.
He just had no one else to rely on.

Even as a Shaq fan I can admit Duncan was the MVP of that series.

That 02 series is seriously one of Duncan's most under valued series. That spurs team outside of him was truly just awful. On paper you might know names, but who was playing and the name you remember had nothing in common in that one.

[ShaqTwizzle]

04 Kobe was again better

No, he wasn't.
Shaq was clearly better in that series.
Even the simple stats go in his favor.


Shaq played with 2 of the 3 greatest shooting guards of all time

Shaq had a healthy Wade for 1 year (and they won the title).
Shaq had young Kobe who wasn't all that special outside of their 01 run.

Gasol's 09+10 playoff runs combined are clearly better then Kobe's 00+02 runs combined.

Penny was good, 20 / 7 on good effiency but not unusually good for a title contending #2.
He was better in their 2nd and last year together but their team got injured and ran into the 96 Bulls.

___________


Kobe had Peak/Prime Shaq for multiple years and then Peak Gasol + Odom for a few more.

Let a young Shaq (90's Shaq) play with Peak/Prime Jordan for multiple years and then a guard of Peak Gasol's caliber during his Peak years (something like an upgraded 02 Kobe) and yeah he'd have a shit load of Rings.

You are fukkin delusional if you think Shaq had half the luck Kobe had.
:facepalm

[Magic 32]

Shaq had young Kobe who wasn't all that special outside of their 01 run.

Gasol's 09+10 playoff runs combined are clearly better then Kobe's 00+02 runs combined.


That is just unbelievable.

Can you post Pau's road stats in those runs?

Here are Kobe's...

2000 Playoffs

25.2 ppg, 4.6 apg, 4.3 rpg, 2.1 spg, 1.2 bpg, fg% 45.2

2002 Playoffs

28.6 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.9 bpg, fg% 44.5

[DaOldLion]

Penny was good, 20 / 7 on good effiency but not unusually good for a title contending #2.


I just can't take you seriously. Penny was first team all nba what the fucc else can you ask for in your #2 :oldlol: :oldlol:

Shaq played with a all nba guard from 95-06. In 98 he had 3 all star guards. he had some amazing teams, and has played with 2 of the best 3 guards of all time..

Did Kobe play with two of the best C's off all time? Two of the best PF's of all time?

There aren't many big men who had as much help as Shaq.. there might not be any..

Shaq had so much help from his 2nd man that he was outscored and out assisted by him through the western conference playoffs 2 years in a row

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG,
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG,

2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG,

how many big have had that type of help from their second guy?

Shaq's 2nd options (accolades with Shaq)

Penny Hardaway = 2x all nba first team

Kobe = 2x first team all defense, 2x second team all defense, 3x all nba first team 2x all nba second team, 1x all nba third team.

Wade = 2x all nba second team, 1x second team nba defense, FMVP

that's some all time great help from your second option.. look at some of these playoff runs from Shaq's 2nd options

95 Penny = 20/4/8 on 46% FG

01 Kobe = 29/7/6 on 47% FG

06 Wade = 28/6/6 on 50% FG

yeah but lets pretend like Shaq didn't have all time great help..

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Title Runs

VORP -> Value Over Replacement Player
WS -> Win Shares

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mUlqUk33DFk/VmwX0VdK42I/AAAAAAAAFBU/vOOsf3fIG8Y/s1600/201.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NsGb3UIjxq4/VmwX0XYHuFI/AAAAAAAAFBQ/C439ZD2CGDA/s1600/200.jpg



Duncan vs Kobe - Playoff Career

Shaq/Gasol/Fisher career with the Lakers

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YEBBYtDCPjQ/VmwX0Zik0TI/AAAAAAAAFBM/D2nDI2KLW5A/s1600/202.jpg


Play-by-Play
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QtqPT2lSPbQ/VmwX06W_27I/AAAAAAAAFBc/_lz6ppkgPSY/s1600/203.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Atyg-CSWXyY/VmyBYZDBUzI/AAAAAAAAFCA/TpgCtGujBoc/s1600/205.jpg

Thread should of ended when this post was made. Duncan clearly had inferior teams throughout most of their meetings and was far more important to his teams as well as delivered much more consistently in the clutch. It's really not even close and the fact that Cuckbe stans try to act like their boy beasting on garbage perimeter defense Spurs teams against Duncan without sometimes 2+ of his "Big 3" says a lot about how much Duncan pays for rent every month.

:facepalm

[Magic 32]

Thread should of ended when this post was made. Duncan clearly had inferior teams throughout most of their meetings and was far more important to his teams as well as delivered much more consistently in the clutch. It's really not even close and the fact that Cuckbe stans try to act like their boy beasting on garbage perimeter defense Spurs teams against Duncan without sometimes 2+ of his "Big 3" says a lot about how much Duncan pays for rent every month.

:facepalm

Just enjoy the games...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aXVxcLm2qQ

[Showtime2001]

Kobe beats Duncan

"Duncan had a bad team."

Duncan beats Kobe

"Clearly Duncan is superior the victory proves it."

Great logic. :oldlol:

[Mr Feeny]

2003 Kobe in the first 12 games of the season without Shaq.
29-ppg on .498%TS

Kobe had Iverson level efficiency before the rule changes without big daddy Shaq drawing triple teams and getting him easy shots.

Hell even with Shaq he shot 49%TS against the West in their 02 run.
Imagine without him...

:pimp:

That's cold /threads :coleman:

[AirBonner]

Thread should of ended when this post was made. Duncan clearly had inferior teams throughout most of their meetings and was far more important to his teams as well as delivered much more consistently in the clutch. It's really not even close and the fact that Cuckbe stans try to act like their boy beasting on garbage perimeter defense Spurs teams against Duncan without sometimes 2+ of his "Big 3" says a lot about how much Duncan pays for rent every month.

:facepalm
Agree. Duncan's 191.6 win shares rank sixth all time, while Bryant's 173 come in at 14th. /thread

[HOoopCityJones]

I just can't take you seriously. Penny was first team all nba what the fucc else can you ask for in your #2 :oldlol: :oldlol:

Shaq played with a all nba guard from 95-06. In 98 he had 3 all star guards. he had some amazing teams, and has played with 2 of the best 3 guards of all time..

Did Kobe play with two of the best C's off all time? Two of the best PF's of all time?

There aren't many big men who had as much help as Shaq.. there might not be any..

Shaq had so much help from his 2nd man that he was outscored and out assisted by him through the western conference playoffs 2 years in a row

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG,
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG,

2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG,

how many big have had that type of help from their second guy?

Shaq's 2nd options (accolades with Shaq)

Penny Hardaway = 2x all nba first team

Kobe = 2x first team all defense, 2x second team all defense, 3x all nba first team 2x all nba second team, 1x all nba third team.

Wade = 2x all nba second team, 1x second team nba defense, FMVP

that's some all time great help from your second option.. look at some of these playoff runs from Shaq's 2nd options

95 Penny = 20/4/8 on 46% FG

01 Kobe = 29/7/6 on 47% FG

06 Wade = 28/6/6 on 50% FG

yeah but lets pretend like Shaq didn't have all time great help..


Ether.

[dhsilv]

Kobe beats Duncan

"Duncan had a bad team."

Duncan beats Kobe

"Clearly Duncan is superior the victory proves it."

Great logic. :oldlol:

Which years were they even? 03 imo Duncan had a much weaker team and honestly that was a magical win. 04 I think it was much closer and an amazing win for the lakers.

The rest of the match ups the winning team was pretty much who you expected going in.

Like seriously when it comes to these teams in teh playoffs you always have to think "maybe" because of the greatness of talent but 03 and 04 were the only times you might have wondered and 03 was duncan just going other worldly and 04 was just a magical series.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Penny was first team all nba what the fucc else can you ask for in your #2

Who cares about a meaningless award like that?
The point is he wasn't special for a #2 the one year they had a chance to contend together.


In 98 he had 3 all star guards.

Actually he had zero.

Kobe was still a scrub in 98 (look at his playoff stats).
Eddie Jones was a roleplayer (an elite one but still a roleplayer).
Van Exel was a flashy gunner who always blew ass in the playoffs.

Anyone who thinks those were All-Star caliber players is a moron.


has played with 2 of the best 3 guards of all time.

He played with a young Kobe who wasn't all that special.
99-04 Kobe playoff stats = 25 / 5 on 52%TS

00 Kobe = 21 / 4 on 52%TS
(didn't perform at All-Star level in 5/11 games pre-Finals)

02 Kobe = 26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS (pre-Finals)

Oy vey such dominance.

Sure Kobe became highly ranked but that was based mostly on his late 00's stretch where he improved greatly as a player and benefited from new rules.

Also Wade isn't a Top 3 SG (you forgot about West?)


There aren't many big men who had as much help as Shaq.

Kareem is an obvious one.
Russell is another obvious one.

And Kobe had far, far, far more help then Shaq did.
Wake up.


2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,

how many big have had that type of help from their second guy?

Plenty.
26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS is not special for a 2nd option.
I can find a long list of 2nd options with better volume/efficiency combo stats.
Gasol in 2010 had a better playoff run then 02 Kobe.

Regarding his 2001 run. Yes he was amazing that year.
Maybe the best 2nd option ever in that run.
But that is only one year and in a comparison with Kobe who had a much greater player in Peak Shaq for multiple years that doesn't mean sh*t.


yeah but lets pretend like Shaq didn't have great help.

He had decent help.
However plenty of All-Timers had better help/circumstances and Kobe had vastly superior help/circumstances.

Like I said before let 90's Shaq play with Peak/Prime Jordan for 5-6 years and then a guard like 02 Kobe + a guy like Odom for 2-3 more years during his Peak and how many Rings does he get?
...

:pimp:

[feyki]

Who cares about a meaningless award like that?
The point is he wasn't special for a #2 the one year they had a chance to contend together.



Actually he had zero.

Kobe was still a scrub in 98 (look at his playoff stats).
Eddie Jones was a roleplayer (an elite one but still a roleplayer).
Van Exel was a flashy gunner who always blew ass in the playoffs.

Anyone who thinks those were All-Star caliber players is a moron.



He played with a young Kobe who wasn't all that special.
99-04 Kobe playoff stats = 25 / 5 on 52%TS

00 Kobe = 21 / 4 on 52%TS
(didn't perform at All-Star level in 5/11 games pre-Finals)

02 Kobe = 26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS (pre-Finals)

Oy vey such dominance.

Sure Kobe became highly ranked but that was based mostly on his late 00's stretch where he improved greatly as a player and benefited from new rules.

Also Wade isn't a Top 3 SG (you forgot about West?)



Kareem is an obvious one.
Russell is another obvious one.

And Kobe had far, far, far more help then Shaq did.
Wake up.



Plenty.
26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS is not special for a 2nd option.
I can find a long list of 2nd options with better volume/efficiency combo stats.
Gasol in 2010 had a better playoff run then 02 Kobe.

Regarding his 2001 run. Yes he was amazing that year.
Maybe the best 2nd option ever in that run.
But that is only one year and in a comparison with Kobe who had a much greater player in Peak Shaq for multiple years that doesn't mean sh*t.



He had decent help.
However plenty of All-Timers had better help/circumstances and Kobe had vastly superior help/circumstances.

Like I said before let 90's Shaq play with Peak/Prime Jordan for 5-6 years and then a guard like 02 Kobe + a guy like Odom for 2-3 more years during his Peak and how many Rings does he get?
...

:pimp:

Shaqtard .

[SpaceJam]

I just can't take you seriously. Penny was first team all nba what the fucc else can you ask for in your #2 :oldlol: :oldlol:

Shaq played with a all nba guard from 95-06. In 98 he had 3 all star guards. he had some amazing teams, and has played with 2 of the best 3 guards of all time..

Did Kobe play with two of the best C's off all time? Two of the best PF's of all time?

There aren't many big men who had as much help as Shaq.. there might not be any..

Shaq had so much help from his 2nd man that he was outscored and out assisted by him through the western conference playoffs 2 years in a row

2001 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG,
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG,

2002 Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG,
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG,

how many big have had that type of help from their second guy?

Shaq's 2nd options (accolades with Shaq)

Penny Hardaway = 2x all nba first team

Kobe = 2x first team all defense, 2x second team all defense, 3x all nba first team 2x all nba second team, 1x all nba third team.

Wade = 2x all nba second team, 1x second team nba defense, FMVP

that's some all time great help from your second option.. look at some of these playoff runs from Shaq's 2nd options

95 Penny = 20/4/8 on 46% FG

01 Kobe = 29/7/6 on 47% FG

06 Wade = 28/6/6 on 50% FG

yeah but lets pretend like Shaq didn't have all time great help..

http://i.imgur.com/7qIYMrT.gif

:applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Your MarkMadsen account is still up, why now under "DaOldLion" ? Forgot the password?

[dubeta]

It's not a rivalry if you're not the 1st option

[Combat Wombat]

Your MarkMadsen account is still up, why now under "DaOldLion" ? Forgot the password?

Says the acne-ridden douchebag with the lesbian haircut who was caught talking to himself in a thread he made.

[LBJFTW]

This.


Its similar to Daniel Gibsons 31 points vs the Pistons in game 6 in 2007.


Sometimes role players step up due to lack of defensive pressure

Exactly. Lebron had so much help in 07 that guys like Gibson were dropping 31 points. If one thing is clear, there has never been a guy that has had so much help as opposed to other greats that has choked so hard. Big bron fan here but we gotta tell it how it is.

That being said, Duncan > Kobe.

[3ball]

Lebron had so much help in 07 that guys like Gibson were dropping 31 points. If one thing is clear, there has never been a guy that has had so much help as opposed to other greats that has choked so hard. Big bron fan here but we gotta tell it how it is.



Kobe won his rivalry with Duncan and defeated him in the clutch:


https://media.giphy.com/media/EEr1d9kg2vAUU/giphy.gif



Otoh, Lebron choked in the clutch and missed the walk-off attempt - he needed Ray Allen to save him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/XxRuyC.gif



Naturally, Jordan MADE his walk-off attempt in his first meeting against Duncan/Popovich to send the game into overtime:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif



After hitting the walk-off, MJ dominated overtime, including 2 dunks over Duncan:


http://i.imgur.com/9XnfRmS.gif



In his 2nd meeting against Duncan, MJ dominated Duncan even more thoroughly:


https://media.giphy.com/media/TbKAH5Pl5N91S/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/VgAj53MW9ee5O/giphy.gif


It's obvious that Jordan only ever DOMINATED Duncan and guys like Duncan - they weren't "rivals" like they are for Kobe and Lebron.. :rolleyes:.. 6/6
.

[sportjames23]

MJ >>>>>>>>>> Kobe > Duncan >>>>>>>>>> Lebron

[Mr Feeny]

MJ >>>>>>>>>> Kobe > Duncan >>>>>>>>>> Lebron

MJ >> Lebron = Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobrick

[Cold soul]

MJ >>>>>>>>>> Kobe > Duncan >>>>>>>>>> Lebron

:applause:

[AirBonner]

It's not a rivalry if you're not the 1st option
This . Kobe wasn't even the best player on his championship teams.

[HOoopCityJones]

MJ >>>>>>>>>> Kobe > Duncan >>>>>>>>>> Lebron

The MJ stans have spoken, we all know they hold rank here. Shut it down. :bowdown:

[AirBonner]

The MJ stans have spoken, we all know they hold rank here. Shut it down. :bowdown:
Lol kobe has the most missed fieldgoals ever. His rank isn't anywhere near Duncan let alone goat mj.

[ArbitraryWater]

Exactly. Lebron had so much help in 07 that guys like Gibson were dropping 31 points. If one thing is clear, there has never been a guy that has had so much help as opposed to other greats that has choked so hard. Big bron fan here but we gotta tell it how it is.

That being said, Duncan > Kobe.

jesus, another alt :biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

Lol kobe has the most missed fieldgoals ever. His rank isn't anywhere near Duncan let alone goat mj.

Who said anything about being better than MJ insecure booty ass ni99a? :roll:

[AirBonner]

Who said anything about being better than MJ insecure booty ass ni99a? :roll:
Autism at its best. chill bruh people be putting him up there with mj when he is down near Iverson :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Who said anything about being better than MJ insecure booty ass ni99a? :roll:

http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5675990+_afa92a2a0ebcc5c2d77ade8f774c0edc.jpg

[IllegalD]

:lol at the reaction of this thread.

Kobe-hater meltdown in full effect.

All these players and coaches coming out of the woodwork saying that Kobe was this eras MJ, and now writers coming out and framing it as Kobe's era/dynasty of 7 finals and 5 championships must be leaving most of you really butthurt.

And La Mamba Famiglia is enjoying every last bit of it. :roll: :applause:

[Showtime2001]

Autism at its best. chill bruh people be putting him up there with mj when he is down near Iverson :lol
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11111/111119363/3816676-0704928121-36645.gif

[DaOldLion]

Your MarkMadsen account is still up, why now under "DaOldLion" ? Forgot the password?

excuse me, but who are you and why are you so paranoid :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Cold soul]

The two best players post Jordan era. :cheers:

[AirBonner]

:lol at the reaction of this thread.

Kobe-hater meltdown in full effect.

All these players and coaches coming out of the woodwork saying that Kobe was this eras MJ, and now writers coming out and framing it as Kobe's era/dynasty of 7 finals and 5 championships must be leaving most of you really butthurt.

And La Mamba Famiglia is enjoying every last bit of it. :roll: :applause:
MJ doesn't have a career 44% fg and he never jacked up the most misses in nba history. He is not this generation's mj

[IllegalD]

MJ doesn't have a career 44% fg and he never jacked up the most misses in nba history. He is not this generation's mj


I'll take the word of every relevant superstar of this generation over some message board virgin. :pimp:

[AirBonner]

I'll take the word of every relevant superstar of this generation over some message board virgin. :pimp:
Numbers don't lie :cheers:

[dhsilv]

:lol at the reaction of this thread.

Kobe-hater meltdown in full effect.

All these players and coaches coming out of the woodwork saying that Kobe was this eras MJ, and now writers coming out and framing it as Kobe's era/dynasty of 7 finals and 5 championships must be leaving most of you really butthurt.

And La Mamba Famiglia is enjoying every last bit of it. :roll: :applause:

I've not seen one actual nba expert pick kobe over duncan...

[ArbitraryWater]

excuse me, but who are you and why are you so paranoid :oldlol: :oldlol:

Why even try to hide it.. that is really, really pathetic

[brownmamba00]

He killed them for a decade?

Dude....he went 4-2 in the playoffs against the Spurs. He had Shaq for 5 of those series and in 08...Manu was injured and that Spurs team on the perimeter was a joke without Manu. They were playing old Finley and Brent Barry heavy minutes.

So got the better of? Sure, but killed? Just no.

Kobe is 21-29 against Duncan in the regular season for his career
Kobe is 18-12 against Duncan in the playoffs for his career

4-2 in series

Like...sorry, that just isn't killing....again, he had ****ing Shaq for 5 of those series...and got lucky breaks like the Fisher shot and Manu injury as well

The fact that you idiotic Kobe fans hang your hat on a career losing record against Duncan overall should be telling to you

Oh please if Horry makes that shot it'd be 5-1 right now

[HOoopCityJones]

I've not seen one actual nba expert pick kobe over duncan...

And I haven't seen one of their peers who said they'd take Duncan over Kobe or that he was the Jordan of his era.

[Mr Feeny]

And I haven't seen one of their peers who said they'd take Duncan over Kobe or that he was the Jordan of his era.

Sure you have. Lebron James openly said during the 2013 finals that Duncan is the best player post Jordan. It's debatable because Lebron might well be the best player since Jordan himself. But either way, most people agree that these two are leaps and bounds above anyone else since his airness retired.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sure you have. Lebron James openly said during the 2013 finals that Duncan is the best player post Jordan. It's debatable because Lebron might well be the best player since Jordan himself. But either way, most people agree that these two are leaps and bounds above anyone else since his airness retired.

I'm guessing/hoping you didn't count Shaq here?

[Mr Feeny]

I'm guessing/hoping you didn't count Shaq here?

My bad. For some reason, he didn't even register in my mind. I forgot he even existed:oldlol:
Yeah Shaq is at the very least level with those two and is arguably higher.

[DaOldLion]

Why even try to hide it.. that is really, really pathetic

the only thing that is pathetic is that in the past 2 years you've spent so much time on here that any new poster you see you're automatically assuming they are somebody else. Step away from the keyboard its getting bad for your mental health :oldlol: :oldlol:

[PsychoBe]

I've not seen one actual nba expert pick kobe over duncan...

you mean when kobe was voted player of the decade? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[dhsilv]

And I haven't seen one of their peers who said they'd take Duncan over Kobe or that he was the Jordan of his era.

I don't put much if any value on player's opinions though I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who are huge duncan fans.

[dhsilv]

you mean when kobe was voted player of the decade? :roll: :roll: :roll:

That was through 2010 and ignores Duncan's clear dominance in the 90's along with a title. So even if that was the most well respected award ever given out, it wouldn't change their careers.

[IllegalD]

That was through 2010 and ignores Duncan's clear dominance in the 90's along with a title. So even if that was the most well respected award ever given out, it wouldn't change their careers.

"Dominance of the 90's".

A whole TWO years.

:roll:

BTW, Kobe was an All-star player since 1998.

According to your criteria besides the 2000s (2000-2009), Kobe also clearly dominated the 2010s (4 seasons of elite play, including a title and arguably the greatest 17th season of all time)

[dhsilv]

"Dominance of the 90's".

A whole TWO years.

:roll:

BTW, Kobe was an All-star player since 1998.

According to your criteria besides the 2000s (2000-2009), Kobe also clearly dominated the 2010s (4 seasons of elite play, including a title and arguably the greatest 17th season of all time)

The gap in the 10's is massively in favor of Duncan to the point of absurdity. Kobe was a joke all star his first year, the guy wasn't even starting. It was a fan vote and should be ignored for the purposes of who was better.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The gap in the 10's is massively in favor of Duncan to the point of absurdity. Kobe was a joke all star his first year, the guy wasn't even starting. It was a fan vote and should be ignored for the purposes of who was better.
Kobe
2010 champion, 2010 finals mvp, 2010 all-nba first team, 2011 all-nba first team, 2012 all-nba first team, 2013 all-nba first team

Duncan
2014 champion, 2013 all-nba first team, 2015 all-nba THIRD team

Hold the L b.itch

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mvp voting in the 10s

2010
Kobe - 3rd
Duncan - no votes

2011
Kobe - 4th
Duncan - no votes

2012
Kobe - 4th
Duncan - 14th

2013
Kobe - 5th
Duncan - 7th

2014
Kobe - no votes
Duncan - 12th

2015
Kobe - no votes
Duncan - 12th

[rmt]

"Dominance of the 90's".

A whole TWO years.

:roll:

BTW, Kobe was an All-star player since 1998.

According to your criteria besides the 2000s (2000-2009), Kobe also clearly dominated the 2010s (4 seasons of elite play, including a title and arguably the greatest 17th season of all time)

Whoop-de-doo - Kobe was an (voted in by fans) all-star since 1998.

1997-98 Duncan
All-Star (chosen by coaches)
All-NBA 1st
All-Defensive 2nd
5th in MVP voting
ROY

1997-98 Kobe
All-Star (chosen by fans)

1998-99 Duncan
NBA Champion
FMVP
All-NBA 1st
All-Defensive 1st
3rd in MVP voting

1998-99 Kobe
All-NBA 3rd

[IllegalD]

Whoop-de-doo - Kobe was an (voted in by fans) all-star since 1998.

1997-98 Duncan
All-Star (chosen by coaches)
All-NBA 1st
All-Defensive 2nd
5th in MVP voting
ROY

1997-98 Kobe
All-Star (chosen by fans)

1998-99 Duncan
NBA Champion
FMVP
All-NBA 1st
All-Defensive 1st
3rd in MVP voting

1998-99 Kobe
All-NBA 3rd

Now do the same for 2010 until now... :D

[feyki]

Duncan > Kobe

[Cold soul]

Kobe > Duncan.

[Springsteen]

Duncan > Kobe

[Showtime2001]

Kobe > Duncan

Now and forever.

[feyki]

I'm not Duncan or Kobe fan and i can say " Duncan > Kobe " . Who isn't Kobe fan can say "Kobe better" ?

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe's Better.

[AirBonner]

Kobe's Better.
At kobe assists

[HOoopCityJones]

At kobe assists

4-2 at whooping that ass in the post season.

[dhsilv]

Kobe
2010 champion, 2010 finals mvp, 2010 all-nba first team, 2011 all-nba first team, 2012 all-nba first team, 2013 all-nba first team

Duncan
2014 champion, 2013 all-nba first team, 2015 all-nba THIRD team

Hold the L b.itch

Well first, is this the "player of the decade" award? http://www.nba.com/alldecade/vote13/

If so that's pretty darn funny. If there was an actual award done by people who know basketball, I'd more more interested.

Now to this, if we're calling 09-10 the fist year of the next decade that does shift things a bit. I was considering that part of the 00's.

This adds a top 5 MVP vote year to the 90's for Duncan all be it a missed playoff run due to injuries, but 00 was still a better year for Duncan head to head.

OK so on to the 10's.

Duncan's awards if they mean much as it's so weird to compare guards to bigs as the nba is dominated by bigs and the guards in the league have been on and off. Plus defensive awards for guards are often just comical. They're bad for bigs too.

2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2014-15 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2014-15 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Kobe
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP

Edge in awards goes to Kobe if we don't try and debate if a second team big is better than first team guard and if we rank defensive team awards differently. A reasonable person on average would make adjustment here, but it won't be needed.

So since I'm going to guess you hate advanced stats, lets use the counting numbers to start.

Regular season.

Duncan

Points 6944
Rebounds 4296
Assist 1285
BLK 858
STL 307
FGA 5524
FG 2783
G 456
MP 13328

Kobe
Points 9002
Rebounds 1869
Assist 1791
BLK 86
STL 465
FGA 7286
FA 3182
G 353
MP 12891

Counting stats edge to Duncan.

Advanced stats

Duncan
PER 22.7
WS 52.4
WS/48 .189
VORP 21
BPM 4.2
TS% 54.8%

Kobe
PER 21.5
WS 35.8
WS/48 .133
VORP 15.7
BPM 2.8
TS% 53.5%

Advantage Duncan

I'm always told playoffs matter and the regular season doesn't.

Counting stats

Duncan

Points 1389
Rebounds 796
Assist 189
BLK 134
STL 55
FGA 1119
FG 565
G 81
MP 2785

Kobe

Points 1259
Rebounds 230
Assist 211
BLK 21
STL 63
FGA 998
FG 449
G 45
MP 1753

Advanced stats

Duncan

PER 21.1
WS 9.6
WS/48 .165
VORP 3.9
BPM 3.5
TS% 54.1%

Kobe

PER 23.8
WS 5.8
WS/48 .158
VORP 2.8
BPM 4.4
TS% 54.9

Advanced would say kobe was more efficient but had less total value due to less success. I'd call it a coin flip personally though I want to give it to Duncan just on the WS and VORP edge.

Either way the decade clearly from the above goes to Duncan. We can factor in that Duncan looks like he's going to play another year and is looking like he'll at least make another defensive team this year while Kobe is actually hurting his legacy with his play (outside of tonight where at least the stats look good, didn't watch it).

Now if you want to argue 2010 was the best year by either of them of this decade, I completely agree. Kobe had a great start to this decade and a great finish to the last decade. From ~08-11 Kobe was the better player. I think I'd give Kobe 2012 but I'd give Duncan 2013, both years are open for some debate.

[Prime_Shaq]

The two best players post Jordan era. :cheers:
Shaq?

[dhsilv]

Shaq?

shaq played an awful lot, of very good bastkball I might add, while Jordan was winning titles.