In which finals Jordan had a better supporting cast...

[Segatti]

...than the best player on the other team? What about Lebron?

Who would've won in these finals:

1991 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Lakers without Magic
1992 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Portland without Drexler
1993 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Suns without Barkley
1996 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Sonics without Payton
1997 and 1998 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Jazz without Malone

2007 - Cavs without Lebron vs. Spurs without Duncan
2011 - Heat without Lebron vs. Mavs without Nowitzki
2012 - Heat without Lebron vs. Thunder without Durant
2013 and 2014 - Heat without Lebron vs. Spurs without Duncan / Leonard
2015 - Cavs without Lebron vs. Warriors without Curry

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol, the Wade/Bosh Heat would have crushed the Nowitzki less Mavs

[Donkey4trading]

Wade and Bosh would destroy Jason Terry and Russell Westbrook teams

[game3524]

1991 and 1996.

[dubeta]

Lol, the Wade/Bosh Heat would have crushed the Nowitzki less Mavs


Nope


Terry > Wade


JJ Barea > Bosh

[72-10]

I do not understand the question. Could you please rephrase it?

[Marchesk]

Seems complicated. Can we boil it down to an equation of some sort? I'm thinking it might consist of the numbers 2 and 6.

[Straight_Ballin]

Seems complicated. Can we boil it down to an equation of some sort? I'm thinking it might consist of the numbers 2 and 6.

:roll:

[72-10]

Nope


Terry > Wade


JJ Barea > Bosh

I think it's good to have a sense of humor, but constantly trolling is disruptive.

[72-10]

thought about it some more and understand the thread now

the ones in bold would win

1991 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Lakers without Magic
1992 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Portland without Drexler
1993 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Suns without Barkley
1996 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Sonics without Payton
1997 and 1998 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Jazz without Malone

With the Jazz you could really flip a coin

the one I feel most confident about is the Suns

[72-10]

Payton wasn't even the best player on the 96 Sonics it was Kemp

[Segatti]

Seems complicated. Can we boil it down to an equation of some sort? I'm thinking it might consist of the numbers 2 and 6.

Because context isn't important at all! It's all Jordan's fault that the Bulls lost in the first round for three straight years, right?

[FKAri]

thought about it some more and understand the thread now

the ones in bold would win

1991 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Lakers without Magic
1992 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Portland without Drexler
1993 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Suns without Barkley
1996 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Sonics without Payton
1997 and 1998 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Jazz without Malone

With the Jazz you could really flip a coin

the one I feel most confident about is the Suns

Jazz without Malone would be pretty gimped imo

[Kvnzhangyay]

thought about it some more and understand the thread now

the ones in bold would win

1991 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Lakers without Magic
1992 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Portland without Drexler
1993 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Suns without Barkley
1996 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Sonics without Payton
1997 and 1998 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Jazz without Malone

With the Jazz you could really flip a coin

the one I feel most confident about is the Suns

I agree with this, and...
2007 - Cavs without Lebron vs. Spurs without Duncan
2011 - Heat without Lebron vs. Mavs without Nowitzki
2012 - Heat without Lebron vs. Thunder without Durant
2013 and 2014 - Heat without Lebron vs. Spurs without Duncan / Leonard
2015 - Cavs without Lebron vs. Warriors without Curry

2012 is debatable

[Segatti]

thought about it some more and understand the thread now

Sorry if it wasn't clear, english is not my native language.


Payton wasn't even the best player on the 96 Sonics it was Kemp

Oh, ok. I didn't watch nba back then, so I wasn't sure.

[72-10]

Sorry if it wasn't clear, english is not my native language.



Oh, ok. I didn't watch nba back then, so I wasn't sure.

Despite being the greatest defensive guard that's ever played basketball, Gary Payton did not guard Jordan for most of the series. They mostly used Hersey Hawkins on Jordan. Payton didn't do that well himself, and Kemp was phenomenal. Rodman was the second best player on the Bulls, pretty close to Jordan actually. Rodman set offensive rebounding records in that Finals. It was easily Jordan's worst Finals.

[Segatti]

Despite being the greatest defensive guard that's ever played basketball, Gary Payton did not guard Jordan for most of the series. They mostly used Hersey Hawkins on Jordan. Payton didn't do that well himself, and Kemp was phenomenal. Rodman was the second best player on the Bulls, pretty close to Jordan actually. Rodman set offensive rebounding records in that Finals. It was easily Jordan's worst Finals.

Who do you think is better, prime Shawn Kemp or current Blake Griffin?

[Marchesk]

Because context isn't important at all! It's all Jordan's fault that the Bulls lost in the first round for three straight years, right?

I thought you were Jameer, my bad.

[feyki]

91 - Bulls with 4-2
92 - Bulls with 4-2
93 - Bulls with 4-1
96 - Bulls with 4-1
97 - Bulls with 4-1
98 - Bulls with 4-3


07 - Spurs with 4-1
11 - Heat with 4-2
12 - Heat with 4-3
13 - Spurs with 4-2
14 - Spurs with 4-0
15 - Warriors with 4-0

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'd wager on Portland, Seattle, and Phoenix beating Chicago in the scenarios mentioned. There were other teams during the title years which would also possibly beat the Bulls, but they were in rounds prior to the Finals.

[72-10]

I'd wager on Portland, Seattle, and Phoenix beating Chicago in the scenarios mentioned. There were other teams during the title years which would also possibly beat the Bulls, but they were in rounds prior to the Finals.

Joking? Do you mean the Knicks without Ewing? Maybe in 92 based on the way that series went down.

[72-10]

Who do you think is better, prime Shawn Kemp or current Blake Griffin?

Naturally Griffin has more skills, as players are more skilled today. Kemp formed a good duo with Payton, but I'd still say Griffin. I'm too lazy to check a statistical comparison of them right now.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Joking? Do you mean the Knicks without Ewing? Maybe in 92 based on the way that series went down.

I was thinking of the '96 Magic, '92 Knicks, '97 Hawks, '91 Pistons, '93 Cavs, and '98 Pacers. Not saying it's definite, but it's possible.

[72-10]

I was thinking of the '96 Magic, '92 Knicks, '97 Hawks, '91 Pistons, '93 Cavs, and '98 Pacers. Not saying it's definite, but it's possible.

they swept the Magic

[90sgoat]

91 Lakers were clearly better outside Magic.

Worthy was an exceptional scorer. Divac much better than Cartwright. Perkins/Horace is a wash, different strengths, but I suppose Horace could be said to be better. Scott is better than Paxson. That was all MJ.

Suns without Barkley also soundly beat MJ less Bulls, KJ was a 20-10 all star guard, Dan Majerle better than anyone outside Pippen.

Blazers about the same strength advantage Bulls because Pippen better than Porter.

Sonics vs Bulls, Pippen vs Kemp advantage Pippen, Hershey Hawkins/McMillan better than Harper, Rodman/Kukoc better than anything else. Close but advantage Bulls.

Jazz vs Bulls advantage Jazz because of hobbled Pippen, declined Rodman.

[Marchesk]

they swept the Magic

So remove Shaq? Yeah, Bulls win.

[Prime_Shaq]

Payton wasn't even the best player on the 96 Sonics it was Kemp
I think overall Payton was the best player for the Sonics in 96 but Kemp was better in the Finals

[FKAri]

Naturally Griffin has more skills, as players are more skilled today. Kemp formed a good duo with Payton, but I'd still say Griffin. I'm too lazy to check a statistical comparison of them right now.

I'm amazed these 80s/90s fans have let this one go

[72-10]

I think overall Payton was the best player for the Sonics in 96 but Kemp was better in the Finals

I didn't see the Sonics in the regular season, I just saw the Finals. So, yeah, I was referring to the Finals. Sorry if that was not clear.

[72-10]

So remove Shaq? Yeah, Bulls win.

yep:cheers:

[72-10]

Divac much better than Cartwright.

I disagree. Jordan really did beast in the series though, doing everything. But, then again, the Bulls won it in five and almost won it in four. They lost Game 1 by 2 points. So I think the Bulls still would have won.

[dhsilv]

thought about it some more and understand the thread now

the ones in bold would win

1991 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Lakers without Magic
1992 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Portland without Drexler
1993 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Suns without Barkley
1996 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Sonics without Payton
1997 and 1998 - Bulls without Jordan vs. Jazz without Malone

With the Jazz you could really flip a coin

the one I feel most confident about is the Suns

97 the bulls wins
98 the jazz win.

Lumping those two years together is really absurd. Pippen was HUGE in 98 for the bulls but he couldn't have been asked to do even one more thing. He literally gave up the rest of his career to do what he did in that series. 97 he could have been asked to carry the bulls and could have.

[dhsilv]

Despite being the greatest defensive guard that's ever played basketball, Gary Payton did not guard Jordan for most of the series. They mostly used Hersey Hawkins on Jordan. Payton didn't do that well himself, and Kemp was phenomenal. Rodman was the second best player on the Bulls, pretty close to Jordan actually. Rodman set offensive rebounding records in that Finals. It was easily Jordan's worst Finals.

Kemp did a lot of what he did due to Payton. I feel like the media really wanted to paint Kemp as the better player due to his dunks and highlights, but imo Payton was the better player and he would be missed a LOT more if one guy were to be removed. That said they were close enough that they could be seen as 1a and 2b.

[dhsilv]

91 Lakers were clearly better outside Magic.

Worthy was an exceptional scorer. Divac much better than Cartwright. Perkins/Horace is a wash, different strengths, but I suppose Horace could be said to be better. Scott is better than Paxson. That was all MJ.

Suns without Barkley also soundly beat MJ less Bulls, KJ was a 20-10 all star guard, Dan Majerle better than anyone outside Pippen.

Blazers about the same strength advantage Bulls because Pippen better than Porter.

Sonics vs Bulls, Pippen vs Kemp advantage Pippen, Hershey Hawkins/McMillan better than Harper, Rodman/Kukoc better than anything else. Close but advantage Bulls.

Jazz vs Bulls advantage Jazz because of hobbled Pippen, declined Rodman.

The issue I'd have with the 91 lakers is who's making plays on that team? I like worthy but even getting him the ball might be hard. Magic did everything to setup the offense for that magic team. Though I'm not sure I recall who'd be his backup? Maybe I'm undervaluing their bench.

[72-10]

Kemp did a lot of what he did due to Payton. I feel like the media really wanted to paint Kemp as the better player due to his dunks and highlights, but imo Payton was the better player and he would be missed a LOT more if one guy were to be removed. That said they were close enough that they could be seen as 1a and 2b.

Kemp was the best Sonics player in the 1996 NBA Finals. Maybe not during the season, but in the Finals he was.

[72-10]

The issue I'd have with the 91 lakers is who's making plays on that team? I like worthy but even getting him the ball might be hard. Magic did everything to setup the offense for that magic team. Though I'm not sure I recall who'd be his backup? Maybe I'm undervaluing their bench.

In the Finals he really didn't have one. He played the most minutes of anyone in the series:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html

[mehyaM24]

The issue I'd have with the 91 lakers is who's making plays on that team? I like worthy but even getting him the ball might be hard. Magic did everything to setup the offense for that magic team. Though I'm not sure I recall who'd be his backup? Maybe I'm undervaluing their bench.

yep

but not only that, scott/worthy played hurt & i think missed the last game or two in the series.

the lakers would be severely under-manned if you were to remove magic, and just play as is.

[72-10]

yeah what are the Lakers without Magic?

a bunch of talent with no organization

[dhsilv]

Kemp was the best Sonics player in the 1996 NBA Finals. Maybe not during the season, but in the Finals he was.

MJ was on Payton a good bit as I recall, but in their two wins payton was HUGE. He had a few weak games and Kemp struggled with foul issues. I dunno, it was close and it was a long time ago, but you're acting like it's cut and dry. I'll disagree with that.

[72-10]

yep

but not only that, scott/worthy played hurt & i think missed the last game or two in the series.

the lakers would be severely under-manned if you were to remove magic, and just play as is.

Scott and Worthy missed the last game

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199106120LAL.html

[dhsilv]

yeah what are the Lakers without Magic?

a bunch of talent with no organization

Yeah that was the highest usage year I recall from magic, I'm too lazy the verify that one, but looking at that team, he was the only legit ball handler.

[72-10]

MJ was on Payton a good bit as I recall, but in their two wins payton was HUGE. He had a few weak games and Kemp struggled with foul issues. I dunno, it was close and it was a long time ago, but you're acting like it's cut and dry. I'll disagree with that.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html

Kemp also received two of the eleven votes for Finals MVP to none for GP.

Payton wasn't as disappointing as I recall, but I'd still say Kemp.

[TrueBlue89]

Lol 2012 Thunder would've destroyed the Heat. Harden & Westbrook would've gone ham

[Shih508]

all i know is 2001 76 Sixers beat Laker's without Shaq. Kobe was just never that good

[dhsilv]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html

Kemp also received two of the eleven votes for Finals MVP to none for GP.

Payton wasn't as disappointing as I recall, but I'd still say Kemp.

My point was that Payton setup Kemp throughout that series. Without him Kemp plays worse imo. I don't deny Kemp might have been better in the finals if we ignore the play making.

That said I think the sonics can replace payton better as they had a great bench, but kemp was more unique for that lineup so perhaps I agree with your point as I think it through more.

[72-10]

well of course Kemp would not have played as well in the 1996 Finals without Payton's help, but he still played better in the 1996 Finals than Payton. As I recall Seattle moved the ball around quite a bit which is probably why Payton was not getting his usual assist numbers. That, and the slow pace. But Kemp was still scoring.

[CAstill]

I didn't see the Sonics in the regular season, I just saw the Finals. So, yeah, I was referring to the Finals. Sorry if that was not clear.

Why do you clowns speak on issues you admit you have no clue about?
Kemp was by far the sonics best player in the regular and whole post season and was the best player in the 96 finals including Jordan. Payton was allowed to play defense recklessly because of how well disciplined Kemp was on the traps. Kemp was the only player that could guard wings and post players. Kemp was also >>>>> Pippen by far. Rodman proved to be their best defensive player and Kemp annihilated him all series. There was nothing Pippen could do to stop Kemp in 96.