Was Melo robbed of 2004 ROTY Award?

[Real14]

I believe he was robbed of rookie of the year award IN 04.

Melo scored more PPG, and he managed to lead nuggets to playoffs while LeBron couldn't for the cavs.

What you think ISH?

[lilteapot]

I think that ROTY is a meaningless award.

[SpaceJam]

I think that ROTY is a meaningless award.

Pretty much, but I do believe Melo should have won it

[Dragonyeuw]

It's a legit argument. Melo outscored( well 21.0 to 20.9, negligible but still), shot a higher TS, more rebounds, and made the playoffs in a tougher conference. That's pretty much the only time they were ever arguably 'on par' as players though.

[feyki]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2004-nba-western-conference-first-round-nuggets-vs-timberwolves.html

Hmmm..

[dubeta]

Not as bad as OP being robbed of basic intelligence

[Real14]

Not as bad as OP being robbed of basic intelligence
You have tha audacity to talk about intelligence :biggums:

[Legends66NBA7]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2004-nba-western-conference-first-round-nuggets-vs-timberwolves.html

Hmmm..

What does that have to with the ROTY ? It's a regular season award.


That said, Melo wasn't "robbed", but like already mentioned it's a pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

[feyki]

What does that have to with the ROTY ? It's a regular season award.


That said, Melo wasn't "robbed", but like already mentioned it's a pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Playoffs are check-up of the season awards .

[JohnMax]

In the 03 offseason the Nuggets signed Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard and Earl Boykins. The Cavs signed Kevin Ollie, Ira Newble and Jelani McCoy.

The Cavs were the exact same team as 02-03 just with LeBron. The Nuggets signed 2 starters and a 6th man, plus Marcus Camby wasn't injured in 03-04.

Attributing the Nuggets improved record to solely Melo is wrong.

[SpaceJam]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2004-nba-western-conference-first-round-nuggets-vs-timberwolves.html

Hmmm..

Yo post LeBron's playoff stats that season for me bruh

[Dragonyeuw]

In the 03 offseason the Nuggets signed Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard and Earl Boykins. The Cavs signed Kevin Ollie, Ira Newble and Jelani McCoy.

The Cavs were the exact same team as 02-03 just with LeBron. The Nuggets signed 2 starters and a 6th man, plus Marcus Camby wasn't injured in 03-04.

Attributing the Nuggets improved record to solely Melo is wrong.

The Cavs had some solid blocks in place before Lebron got there with Big Z and Boozer. There isn't a lot of difference at least talent-wise in their 2004 rosters. Melo wasn't solely responsible, but he was obviously the biggest piece. And consider how stacked the west was at that point.

[LBJFTW]

Big bran fan here but Melo was robbed of the award. He simply was the better rookie, period point blank. The NBA had put themselves in a corner by hyping up lebron so much that not giving him the award would have cast the NBA in a negative light.

[DrakeTheSnake]

No, but I do believe if he were on the Knicks from the beginning they would have given it to him.

[ShawkFactory]

Robbed? No he wasn't robbed. He had a strong case but Bron was excellent as well.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Not that it really matters much now but I do remember that back then I felt like Melo deserved it more and the media in general was pretty split over him not winning it.

Let us take a look at the stat side.

Melo : 21.0 / 6.1 / 2.8 on .509%TS (36.5-mpg)
Bron : 20.9 / 5.5 / 5.9 on .488%TS (39.5-mpg)

Yeah. Close.
Don't think Lebron winning it was wrong but you really couldn't have gone wrong with either one.

Personally I think the obvious choice would have been CO-ROY with both of them winning it.

I believe they have given out the award that way before (71, 95, 00) so it makes little sense that they wouldn't have done it for that year when the race was so close.

[Rake2204]

In the 03 offseason the Nuggets signed Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard and Earl Boykins. The Cavs signed Kevin Ollie, Ira Newble and Jelani McCoy.

The Cavs were the exact same team as 02-03 just with LeBron. The Nuggets signed 2 starters and a 6th man, plus Marcus Camby wasn't injured in 03-04.

Attributing the Nuggets improved record to solely Melo is wrong.True words.

I do believe Carmelo Anthony was the biggest acquisition for that team and most responsible for that next step into the playoffs (after winning just 17 games the year before). But you're absolutely right, that team was just about re-built from the ground up.

In addition to Miller, Lenard, and Boykins (who all performed crucial roles), a healthy Marcus Camby changed that team as well (just 29 limited minute games the year prior).

Moreover, Nene had a year under his belt, Jon Barry's arrival was a tinge underrated, and that was the first year Chris Andersen became a thing (he'd become one of the first D-League call-ups the year prior but didn't really begin to come into his own until 03-04).

Quite honestly, looking at that roster now, it's almost entirely turned over since 2003. Even those new baby blue jerseys helped lend credence to the "rising from the ashes" notion of things out there. But again, yeah, I'm not sure I'd say Carmelo Anthony got robbed, because beyond the statistics, most of us knew exactly what we were seeing with rookie LeBron James at that point. But I definitely think there was a Rookie of the Year debate to be had. People went back and forth with the whole "LeBron or Carmelo?" thing that year.

[gasolina]

Big bran fan here but Melo was robbed of the award. He simply was the better rookie, period point blank. The NBA had put themselves in a corner by hyping up lebron so much that not giving him the award would have cast the NBA in a negative light.
Yeah but they already did it when they gave Amare the ROY over Yao.

Damn just looked up Yao and realized he retired at 30.

[ralph_i_el]

LeBron scored .1 less ppg and had twice as many assists.

[SpaceJam]

Honestly even though like I said before I felt Melo deserved it, if he won it this thread could easily be titled 'Was Bron robbed of 2004 ROTY award?'

It was that close, like a previous poster said, Co-ROTY would have probably been the best way to go

[HurricaneKid]

Its clear no one has any grasp of advanced metrics here.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/apm/2004-apm/

"but but he avg .1 more ppgz!!!"

[72-10]

2003-04 Cleveland: 35-47, -2.6 ppg
2003-04 Denver: 43-39, +1.1 ppg

2002-03 Cleveland and Denver both went 17-65.

[Dragonyeuw]

Honestly even though like I said before I felt Melo deserved it, if he won it this thread could easily be titled 'Was Bron robbed of 2004 ROTY award?'

It was that close, like a previous poster said, Co-ROTY would have probably been the best way to go


Frankly, if it was Melo and the other player was not Lebron( exact same stats and team situation, but a lesser hyped name)....Melo would have gotten it.

[Dragonyeuw]

LeBron scored .1 less ppg and had twice as many assists.

Lebron played 3 more minutes, shot worse, rebounded less and with Andre Miller running the point, somewhat pointless to bring up assists given the role on their teams and nature of their respective games.

[AintNoSunshine]

:oldlol: The closest he has gotten to winning any award in 13 years of his career was a fkin ROTY.

Let that sink in. I'd be ashamed to mention it if I were a fan of his.:facepalm

[HurricaneKid]

Lebron played 3 more minutes, shot worse, rebounded less and with Andre Miller running the point, somewhat pointless to bring up assists given the role on their teams and nature of their respective games.

And yet according to RAPM data he was worth about 9 wins and Melo wasn't worth any.

ou guys and your naked PPGz are getting out of hand.

[Prime_Shaq]

It was a close race but LeBron became a much better player

[Dragonyeuw]

And yet according to RAPM data he was worth about 9 wins and Melo wasn't worth any.

ou guys and your naked PPGz are getting out of hand.

2015 RAPM data suggests that currently Kyle Lowry is better than Lebron. Agree?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

2015 RAPM data suggests that currently Kyle Lowry is better than Lebron. Agree?
Absolutely.

:hammertime:

[Dragonyeuw]

Absolutely.

:hammertime:

Actually following the logic, Kyle is the 3rd best player behind Curry and Westbrook.:bowdown:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Actually following the logic, Kyle is the 3rd best player behind Curry and Westbrook.:bowdown:
Skinny Lowry on that pilates shit. Putting the league on notice, Raps actually gonna make it to the second round!

:party:

[ArbitraryWater]

True Story: Besides his TMZ stories, John Max has never spoken a single word out of HIS mouth/keyboard :oldlol:

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/lettuce-act-cereal-melo-was-robbed-of-rookie-of-the-year.453300383/


In the 03 offseason the Nuggets signed Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard and Earl Boykins. The Cavs signed Kevin Ollie, Ira Newble and Jelani McCoy.

The Cavs were the exact same team as 02-03 just with LeBron. The Nuggets signed 2 starters and a 6th man, plus Marcus Camby wasn't injured in 03-04.

Attributing the Nuggets improved record to solely Melo is wrong.

[tmacattack33]

It's a legit argument. Melo outscored( well 21.0 to 20.9, negligible but still), shot a higher TS, more rebounds, and made the playoffs in a tougher conference. That's pretty much the only time they were ever arguably 'on par' as players though.

LOL please. The points, TS%, and rebounds are all very close to neglible.

The assists, however, aren't even close. Lebron doubled Carmelo in assists, and from day 1 Lebron had top 5 passing vision in the NBA while Melo was not a good passer.

So, you talk about all these other stats that have a neglible difference, yet you glance over Lebron's best trait. LOL.

I suppose you wanna go back to Chris Paul's rookie of the year and pick someone else who had a neglible lead over him in points, TS%, and rebounds, and fail to mention the assists.

Or, you want to go back and knock Oscar Robertson out of the top 10 GOAT lists because you found somebody who had negligibly better scoring and rebound stats, but half the assists. :roll:

GTFOH.

[ShaqTwizzle]

LOL please. The points, TS%, and rebounds are all very close to neglible.


Eh.

A 2.1% difference in efficiency is certainly not negligible. That is significant.

Also while they scored about the same Carmelo got his volume in 3 less minutes and also outrebounded Bron in 3 less minutes.

R-Melo was also the better defender of the two.


while Melo was not a good passer.

2.8-apg isn't bad at all for a an average SF or any SF who isn't in a playmaking role.


So, you talk about all these other stats that have a neglible difference, yet you glance over Lebron's best trait.

Yes he was a better playmaker but don't act like the gap is gigantic.
We are talking 3 extra assists.

3 assists VS 2% efficiency, better rebounding and 3 less minutes is close...

[HurricaneKid]

2015 RAPM data suggests that currently Kyle Lowry is better than Lebron. Agree?

20 game sample vs 82 game sample. But Lowry has been incredible.

And we are talking about one place (both are top 5).

In 2004 RAPM more than half the league is between LeBron and Melo.

I know half you cats failed HS math but the grasp on basic reading of analytics here is a joke.

[HOoopCityJones]

True Story: Besides his TMZ stories, John Max has never spoken a single word out of HIS mouth/keyboard :oldlol:

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/lettuce-act-cereal-melo-was-robbed-of-rookie-of-the-year.453300383/

And you have the most posts out of everyone in the 2014 class combined. This isn't including your alts. Seek help.

[RRR3]

Literally the only year Carmelo had an argument for being as good as LeBron was in their rookie year :oldlol:



What does that tell you, OP? :hammerhead:

[ShaqTwizzle]

Literally the only year Carmelo had an argument for being as good as LeBron was in their rookie year :oldlol:



What does that tell you, OP? :hammerhead:

No offense but why is that relevent?
We are talking specifically about their Rook seasons.

The fact that Lebron became a much better player/had a much better career means nothing here.

I doubt the thread starter was trying to convince people that Melo > Bron because he might have had a better Rookie season.

[RRR3]

No offense but why is that relevent?
We are talking specifically about their Rook seasons.

The fact that Lebron became a much better player/had a much better career means nothing here.

I doubt the thread starter was trying to convince people that Melo > Bron because he might have had a better Rookie season.
Not familiar with OP, are you? A huge portion of his posts are "hurr durr LeBron sucks"

[ShaqTwizzle]

I know half you cats failed HS math but the grasp on basic reading of analytics here is a joke.

RAPM makes sense sometimes and sometimes it gives absurd results.
Its fine to post it but don't act like because RAPM says something it HAS to be true.

It is not really a great (this guy > that guy) stat.

[Dragonyeuw]

20 game sample vs 82 game sample. But Lowry has been incredible.

And we are talking about one place (both are top 5).

In 2004 RAPM more than half the league is between LeBron and Melo.

I know half you cats failed HS math but the grasp on basic reading of analytics here is a joke.

And we'll revisit the topic after 82 games. And if Lowry is still 3rd best RAPM, and higher than Lebron, my point remains.

Oh, and in 2013-14, over a 82 game season, Andre Iguodola was 3rd in RAPM. Third best player? Should have been 3rd in MVP voting?

[Dragonyeuw]

RAPM makes sense sometimes and sometimes it gives absurd results.
Its fine to post it but don't act like because RAPM says something it HAS to be true.

It is not really a great (this guy > that guy) stat.

Exactly. Dude picks an advanced stat that can give just as many ridiculous conclusions as sensible ones, if it's an argument about player A versus player B.

[Chrono90]

Not that it really matters much now but I do remember that back then I felt like Melo deserved it more and the media in general was pretty split over him not winning it.

Let us take a look at the stat side.

Melo : 21.0 / 6.1 / 2.8 on .509%TS (36.5-mpg)
Bron : 20.9 / 5.5 / 5.9 on .488%TS (39.5-mpg)

Yeah. Close.
Don't think Lebron winning it was wrong but you really couldn't have gone wrong with either one.

Personally I think the obvious choice would have been CO-ROY with both of them winning it.

I believe they have given out the award that way before (71, 95, 00) so it makes little sense that they wouldn't have done it for that year when the race was so close.

The case was both teams were horrible teams the year before but after drafting their rookies with top picks, Melo's team made the playoffs in the stronger West.

Similar stats but Melo brought his team to the playoffs. That was the biggest argument.

But NBA was selling high on Lebron so they can't ruin his legacy.

[Dragonyeuw]

LOL please. The points, TS%, and rebounds are all very close to neglible.

The assists, however, aren't even close. Lebron doubled Carmelo in assists, and from day 1 Lebron had top 5 passing vision in the NBA while Melo was not a good passer.




Per 36:

Melo- 20.7ppg, 6.0rpg, 2.8apg

Lebron- 19.1ppg, 5.0rpg, 5.4.apg


It's only negligible because you glossed over the extra 3 minutes it took Lebron to reach a 'neglible' difference in 2 of the 3 main categories. Apples to apples, 2.6 more points and an extra rebound isn't negligible. Lebron averaging more assists is a given.

GTFOH.

[Dragonyeuw]

Literally the only year Carmelo had an argument for being as good as LeBron was in their rookie year :oldlol:



What does that tell you, OP? :hammerhead:

It tells me that you missed the point of the thread. This is about their rookie seasons, not the ensuing years afterward.

[RRR3]

It tells me that you missed the point of the thread. This is about their rookie seasons, not the ensuing years afterward.
Forgive me for not taking real14 threads seriously

[Dragonyeuw]

Forgive me for not taking real14 threads seriously

Well that's your call, but regardless of the poster( and I'm not familiar with him/her), it's not an absurd question.

[Gileraracer]

Yeah he was. More PPG, more RPG in less minutes + playoffs

[tmacattack33]

Eh.

A 2.1% difference in efficiency is certainly not negligible. That is significant.

Also while they scored about the same Carmelo got his volume in 3 less minutes and also outrebounded Bron in 3 less minutes.

R-Melo was also the better defender of the two.



2.8-apg isn't bad at all for a an average SF or any SF who isn't in a playmaking role.



Yes he was a better playmaker but don't act like the gap is gigantic.
We are talking 3 extra assists.

3 assists VS 2% efficiency, better rebounding and 3 less minutes is close...

No, the gap in Lebron's passing and Melo is and was gigantic and it is the largest factor in why Lebron is and was better than Melo.

And statistically speaking, if you just want to talk about stats, 3 assists per game is the difference between someone who is 15 on the assists per game list and someone who is number 45 on it. It is indeed a pretty large gap.

[chazzy]

True Story: Besides his TMZ stories, John Max has never spoken a single word out of HIS mouth/keyboard :oldlol:

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/lettuce-act-cereal-melo-was-robbed-of-rookie-of-the-year.453300383/
AW calling people out for copy/paste jobs :oldlol:

[Clifton]

I remember that 2004 season. People were saying this then, too.

People were just trying to be original. Lebron's generational greatness was apparent even then, and it felt too boring to acknowledge it. Melo was never for one moment on Lebron's level.

Lebron was the most impressive rookie in 2004. He was a clear cut above Melo, who was a clear cut above Wade at the time.

I remember people saying after Detroit won the championship in 04: "Imagine if they had gotten Melo instead of Darko. Scary." Many people replied: "Well, if they had, they may not have traded for Sheed. Wouldn't have had the same defensive identity. Who knows if they win."

Nobody would have said that if Lebron had been available at #2. They would have said, "Detroit screwed up. They picked the wrong guy. Period. I don't care if they won a title. They lost out on 6 more." Even in 2004.

[HurricaneKid]

RAPM makes sense sometimes and sometimes it gives absurd results.
Its fine to post it but don't act like because RAPM says something it HAS to be true.

It is not really a great (this guy > that guy) stat.

I'm good with all that. And in terms of ranking players it clearly isn't perfect.

But when we are talking about one guy adding 8 wins and one guy adding .3 wins we are talking about a MASSIVE chasm in on court impact.

Show me another case where one guy at .3 WPA could be argued a better player than a guy at 8 WPA and then we can talk. For all the discussion about one guy being too high or low, there is just no justification to be 320th in the league and pretending they are as good as a top 60 player.

[Genaro]

Melo was the true winner of course. The thing is: Lebron was so hyped before he even plays that some guys guys voted on reputation. Although Lebron had the better career, that year Melo was better. Probably due to him being more ready than Lebron, since he spent a year in college. Lebron catch up shortly after, though.

[Rose'sACL]

Melo was the true winner of course. The thing is: Lebron was so hyped before he even plays that some guys guys voted on reputation. Although Lebron had the better career, that year Melo was better. Probably due to him being more ready than Lebron, since he spent a year in college. Lebron catch up shortly after, though.
lebron had better stats. it is as simple as that.