Hakeem Olajuwon > Magic Johnson

[JohnnySic]

Magic Johnson is generally ranked higher than Hakeem Ojajuwon on all-time greatest lists but Hakeem was a better player. Worlds better on defense and quite frankly better on offense except for passing.

The only players who should rank ahead of Hakeem all time are Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and (maybe, I have to think long and hard about it) Bird.

Players like Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and LeBron should not outrank Hakeem because they had (except LeBron) more team success. Maybe Shaq due to his sheer dominance but if I had to pick I'd rank Hakeem higher.

I mean, imagine the Showtime Lakers with Hakeem instead of Magic:

c/pf - Kareem/Hakeem, with McAdoo/Rambis or Green/Thompson backing up
sf - Worthy
sg - Scott/Cooper
pg - some guy off the street

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fYL9BCU-eNk/T1d_exEKx2I/AAAAAAAAAmA/aZTfj90qAKU/s1600/tumblr_lrsuylX0NA1qm1wh3o2_500.png

[iTare]

I don't think you understand how important the pace of a game is. No one controlled that aspect of the game like Magic.

[ShaqTwizzle]

You can probably argue it.

Hakeem gets underrated offensively.
His Prime playoff scoring stats are better then Kobe's.

Then of course you have his defense...

[VengefulAngel]

I don't think you understand how important the pace of a game is. No one controlled that aspect of the game like Magic.

This.

[HOoopCityJones]

Que the double standards where these very same assholes will pretend Defense is the end all be all to basketball. But will turn around and say Magic is better than Dream because of what he brought to the table offensively, screw what Hakeem did on Both sides of the ball.

[AirFederer]

No.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Magic Johnson is generally ranked higher than Hakeem Ojajuwon on all-time greatest lists but Hakeem was a better player. Worlds better on defense and quite frankly better on offense except for passing.

The only players who should rank ahead of Hakeem all time are Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and (maybe, I have to think long and hard about it) Bird.

Players like Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and LeBron should not outrank Hakeem because they had (except LeBron) more team success. Maybe Shaq due to his sheer dominance but if I had to pick I'd rank Hakeem higher.

I mean, imagine the Showtime Lakers with Hakeem instead of Magic:

c/pf - Kareem/Hakeem, with McAdoo/Rambis or Green/Thompson backing up
sf - Worthy
sg - Scott/Cooper
pg - some guy off the street

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fYL9BCU-eNk/T1d_exEKx2I/AAAAAAAAAmA/aZTfj90qAKU/s1600/tumblr_lrsuylX0NA1qm1wh3o2_500.png

Problem is in terms of career rankings, Hakeem's peak was relatively short in comparison to players with sustained dominance like Magic, Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, etc

[JohnnySic]

Problem is in terms of career rankings, Hakeem's peak was relatively short in comparison to players with sustained dominance like Magic, Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, etc
Hakeem was a beast from '85 to '96. People just ignore the '87-'93 period because his teams were bad.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Problem is in terms of career rankings, Hakeem's peak was relatively short in comparison to players with sustained dominance like Magic, Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, etc

That isn't really true at all.
Hakeem had a longer Prime then Kobe and a normal length Peak stretch.

People ignore his early years because he was in a shitty team situation.

Also didn't a baby Hakeem in the 80's take down a Peak Magic led Laker team in the playoffs...?
Something to think about.
:pimp:

[CAstill]

If we're not including team accomplishments then Hakeem was thoroughly destroyed by Shawn Kemp his whole career. Kemp>>>Hakeem. Hakeem was scared on the court lol.

[Clifton]

quite frankly better on offense except for passing.
Strange thing to say. "Except for passing"? Passing is a pretty f*cking important thing, especially when it's being done by Magic Johnson, is it not?

This "passing" you want to exclude from the conversation I define as: "Single handedly, just by being on the court, making any team he's on, no matter what the coach or the personalities of the other players, as confident and as cohesive as these Warriors were towards the end of their winning streak."

(And if you doubt this... you think Kareem is headlining Showtime? You think he had anywhere near the charisma or energy for that? Kareem was a one man band; Magic made him part of something legendary.)

If you want to call that "passing," fine, but you can't change reality with language. Magic's impact on the game was enormous. I'm not convinced he was as good as Bird or some of the top big men of all time... but when I watch Hakeem I don't see anything near that level of impact. Tremendous skills and disruptive as hell on defense, but he wasn't Magic Johnson.

If he were, someone would have said this before. Hakeem won titles; he was recognized as great all throughout his career. Was never under-appreciated or overlooked. Nobody ever said he was the best player in the game, except when he was (his two title years with MJ "retired").

[FKAri]

I've gotten shit on here for saying Magic's overrated and a guy who's career is often looked back on nostalgically with roses tinted glasses. However I still have him as a top 7-8 player ever and above Hakeem.

[ArbitraryWater]

Inbefore Lakers1987 and we hear about Hakeem's first round exits...

Hakeem was amazing, 2-sided beast, which Magic is not, but Magic controlled a game as good as anyone. I think they're in the same tier though. No problem with either.

[jayfan]

Magic Johnson is generally ranked higher than Hakeem Ojajuwon on all-time greatest lists but Hakeem was a better player. Worlds better on defense and quite frankly better on offense except for passing.

The only players who should rank ahead of Hakeem all time are Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and (maybe, I have to think long and hard about it) Bird.

Players like Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and LeBron should not outrank Hakeem because they had (except LeBron) more team success. Maybe Shaq due to his sheer dominance but if I had to pick I'd rank Hakeem higher.

I mean, imagine the Showtime Lakers with Hakeem instead of Magic:

c/pf - Kareem/Hakeem, with McAdoo/Rambis or Green/Thompson backing up
sf - Worthy
sg - Scott/Cooper
pg - some guy off the street


I'm an enormous Olajuwon fan. Rank him above Shaq. But I can't get behind this. Showtime isn't Showtime without Magic.





.

[FreezingTsmoove]

I don't think you understand how important the pace of a game is. No one controlled that aspect of the game like Magic.

I dont think you understand how important defense is

No one was a better defensive anchor in the history of the league than Hakeem

I have Hakeem #6 all time, Magic #8

People forget how dominant this mother****er was on defense.

[IMObjective]

Bird

Bias


maybe, I have to think long and hard about it

deflection of bias accusations

:D

Personally, I don't think it should be about breaking down offense and defense and the subcategories in each, but rather just about overall impact, and Magic had plenty of that.

1991 NBA Finals team

Magic, Worthy, Byron, Perkins, Divac, Green, and etc

pretty good, nothing too special, NO kareem (not to mention kareem was way past his prime for a major portion of his Laker years), and a new coach

Worthy was pretty good, but this team was all Magic.

edit: oh yeah, on topic, I am a big hakeem fan too, don't like these player a>player b comparisons, especially when their impact is so close, and it really depends on the team situation to say player a>player b

[Sarcastic]

I dont think you understand how important defense is

No one was a better defensive anchor in the history of the league than Hakeem

I have Hakeem #6 all time, Magic #8

People forget how dominant this mother****er was on defense.

http://www.nba.com/media/playoffs2007/russ_070501_300x400.jpg

[FKAri]

http://www.nba.com/media/playoffs2007/russ_070501_300x400.jpg

Dude weighed less than Vince Carter...jus sayin.

[ClipperRevival]

Hakeem is by far my favorite all time big but just no. Being the superior player isn't just about stats, it's about winning. Magic won about as much as anyone outside of a few. He went to 9 finals in 11 years and won 5 of them, all against all time, elite teams.

You can't measure leadership, unselfishness, charisma, etc. He had the "it" factor and was Showtime. Without him, the Lakers probably win ZERO rings in the 80's.

[game3524]

Hakeem is the most overrated all-time great on this forum.

Magic was the better player, he is one of the few players(not even MJ can make this claim...) that you can put bums around him and still manage to win 50 games every year.

[swagga]

Magic Johnson is generally ranked higher than Hakeem Ojajuwon on all-time greatest lists but Hakeem was a better player. Worlds better on defense and quite frankly better on offense except for passing.

The only players who should rank ahead of Hakeem all time are Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and (maybe, I have to think long and hard about it) Bird.

Players like Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and LeBron should not outrank Hakeem because they had (except LeBron) more team success. Maybe Shaq due to his sheer dominance but if I had to pick I'd rank Hakeem higher.

I mean, imagine the Showtime Lakers with Hakeem instead of Magic:

c/pf - Kareem/Hakeem, with McAdoo/Rambis or Green/Thompson backing up
sf - Worthy
sg - Scott/Cooper
pg - some guy off the street

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fYL9BCU-eNk/T1d_exEKx2I/AAAAAAAAAmA/aZTfj90qAKU/s1600/tumblr_lrsuylX0NA1qm1wh3o2_500.png

quite easy for someone who seen them play:
hakeem was a melo-sized black hole on offense. The whole showtime wouldn't exist, and all these player's strengths wouldn't be used... still a good team on talent alone, but nowhere near showtime levels.

[stalkerforlife]

You can definitely make an argument for Hakeem over Magic.

Hakeem won back to back titles with the worst supporting cast in the history of any repeat title team. Kobe's was second worst.

[K Xerxes]

Hakeem is the most overrated all-time great on this forum.

Magic was the better player, he is one of the few players(not even MJ can make this claim...) that you can put bums around him and still manage to win 50 games every year.

Right. Magic dragged those bum teams consisting of James Worthy, Byron Scott, Norm Nixon and Kareem ****ing Abdul-Jabbar kicking and screaming to titles. Also with a terrible coach in Pat ****ing Riley, right?

[game3524]

quite easy for someone who seen them play:
hakeem was a melo-sized black hole on offense. The whole showtime wouldn't exist, and all these player's strengths wouldn't be used... still a good team on talent alone, but nowhere near showtime levels.

Yeah, people tend to forget that Hakeem was seen as a bit of selfish headcase until the early 90s.

Switch him with Magic on those 80s teams and Lakers aren't winning anything.

[K Xerxes]

Hakeem is by far my favorite all time big but just no. Being the superior player isn't just about stats, it's about winning. Magic won about as much as anyone outside of a few. He went to 9 finals in 11 years and won 5 of them, all against all time, elite teams.

You can't measure leadership, unselfishness, charisma, etc. He had the "it" factor and was Showtime. Without him, the Lakers probably win ZERO rings in the 80's.

You also can't measure how good your team mates are, but that doesn't mean you should ignore it. And obviously Magic had far superior team mates to Hakeem in his career. Context matters

[Sarcastic]

You can definitely make an argument for Hakeem over Magic.

Hakeem won back to back titles with the worst supporting cast in the history of any repeat title team. Kobe's was second worst.


Meh. Drexler > Dumars or anyone that Isiah had, and in 1994 Hakeem's teammates were better than Ewing's.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Yeah, people tend to forget that Hakeem was seen as a bit of selfish headcase until the early 90s.

Switch him with Magic on those 80s teams and Lakers aren't winning anything.

Oh yeah, for sure.
I mean it isn't like Hakeem led his team to the Finals in his 2nd year (1986) and beat the Magic led Laker's while doing so.

Just a blackhole headcase.
Wouldn't have even made the playoffs on those stacked Laker teams let alone the early 80's LAL teams that still had a Prime Kareem.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Meh. Drexler > Dumars or anyone other than Isiah had, and in 1994 Hakeem's teammates were better than Ewing's.

Because Starks laid an egg maybe...

as a whole Isiah's supporting cast was far better why only go to the next best player and stop there :facepalm

Thing is, a peak Hakeem was jobbed in '93, they tied the Bulls H2H that year, and likely would have given them the most trouble out of any finals opponent.

[game3524]

Right. Magic dragged those bum teams consisting of James Worthy, Byron Scott, Norm Nixon and Kareem ****ing Abdul-Jabbar kicking and screaming to titles. Also with a terrible coach in Pat ****ing Riley, right?

Go look at the 1991 Lakers team, that wasn't a very good team. They had no business getting to the finals(Portland was not only the favorite to win the west that year, but the title.). But they upset them due to Magic's brilliant play(particularly when it comes to controlling the pace).

I mean the same Lakers squad becomes a treadmill team the minute Magic retires(record of 43-39 in 1992).

[ClipperRevival]

You also can't measure how good your team mates are, but that doesn't mean you should ignore it. And obviously Magic had far superior team mates to Hakeem in his career. Context matters

Talent alone doesn't guarantee anything. Lakers had talent before Magic arrived. But he brought that winning attitude and the "it" factor and changed the culture of the franchise both on and off the court. He was just a winner.

[ClipperRevival]

Go look at the 1991 Lakers team, that wasn't a very good team. They had no business getting to the finals(Portland was not on the favorite to win the west that year, but the title.). But they upset them due to Magic's brilliant play(particularly when it comes to controlling the pace).

I mean the same Lakers squad becomes a treadmill team the minute Magic retires(record of 43-39 in 1992).

Yup, 1990-91 Lakers had no business being in the finals. They weren't supposed to beat the up and coming Blazers. And that season was mostly Magic leading the way.

[game3524]

Oh yeah, for sure.
I mean it isn't like Hakeem led his team to the Finals in his 2nd year (1986) and beat the Magic led Laker's while doing so.

Just a blackhole headcase.
Wouldn't have even made the playoffs on those stacked Laker teams let alone the early 80's LAL teams that still had a Prime Kareem.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Nice strawman.:oldlol:

I said they wouldn't have won anything, which is true given that 80s Hakeem wasn't a mature player.

[ProfessorMurder]

Dude weighed less than Vince Carter...jus sayin.
Dude has 11 rings than Vince. Just saying.

[stalkerforlife]

Meh. Drexler > Dumars or anyone other than Isiah had, and in 1994 Hakeem's teammates were better than Ewing's.

:biggums: :biggums: :banghead:

Drexler was only there for one of the titles.

Laimbeer
Rodman
Mahorn
The microwave

Dumars averaged 27 points in the 89 finals and won the finals MVP.

No player came close to touching Hakeem on the Rockets in any series.

[Sarcastic]

Because Starks laid an egg maybe...

as a whole Isiah's supporting cast was far better why only go to the next best player and stop there :facepalm

Thing is, a peak Hakeem was jobbed in '93, they tied the Bulls H2H that year, and likely would have given them the most trouble out of any finals opponent.


Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Maxwell, 7 rings Horry, Cassel >>>>> Oakley, Starks, Charles Smith.

Not even close when you really think about it.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Nice strawman.:oldlol:

I said they wouldn't have won anything, which is true given that 80s Hakeem wasn't a mature player.

And yet this "apparently" immature player led a team to the Finals in his 2nd year and beat the Magic led Laker's in the process.
He also took two games off the legendary 86 Celtic's.

The idea that a young Hakeem with a still beastly early 80's Kareem wouldn't win anything is an absolute joke and then by the mid/late 80's Hakeem would be more mature and would have a fine chance at winning some more with some of those deep Laker casts.

Plus he'd have the tutelage of Kareem & Riley to help him along.
Kareem is also a Muslim and it was Islam that Hakeem said helped him mature.
I could see Hakeem doing very well in Magic's shoes/situation.

[game3524]

Yup, 1990-91 Lakers had no business being in the finals. They weren't supposed to beat the up and coming Blazers. And that season was mostly Magic leading the way.

Yeah, 1991 is some of Magic's finest work. The team really wasn't that great, I mean compare their roster to Portland and it isn't even close.

[ShawkFactory]

Because Starks laid an egg maybe...

as a whole Isiah's supporting cast was far better why only go to the next best player and stop there :facepalm

Thing is, a peak Hakeem was jobbed in '93, they tied the Bulls H2H that year, and likely would have given them the most trouble out of any finals opponent.
Well, that and Hakeem destroyed Ewing.

[Sarcastic]

:biggums: :biggums: :banghead:

Drexler was only there for one of the titles.

Laimbeer
Rodman
Mahorn
The microwave

Dumars averaged 27 points in the 89 finals and won the finals MVP.

No player came close to touching Hakeem on the Rockets in any series.

Shaq put up 28/12/6 on Hakeem. Ewing out rebounded and out blocked Hakeem. What do you no one came close?

[ClipperRevival]

Yeah, 1991 is some of Magic's finest work. The team really wasn't that great, I compare their roster to Portland and it isn't even close.

Magic's best season in terms of doing the most with the least. He was amazing that year. Maximizing the talent on that pretty weak squad. Teams like Phoenix and Portland were far superior teams.

[game3524]

And yet this "apparently" immature player led a team to the Finals in his 2nd year and beat the Magic led Laker's in the process.
He also took two games off the legendary 86 Celtic's.

The idea that a young Hakeem with a still beastly early 80's Kareem wouldn't win anything is an absolute joke and then by the mid/late 80's Hakeem would be more mature and would have a fine chance at winning some more with some of those deep Laker casts.

And? He didn't win anything.

Stop reading the boxscores, and actually watch games and research that era. Hakeem wasn't a championship winning player in 1980s(He was in 90s...).

[Sarcastic]

Well, that and Hakeem destroyed Ewing.

What do you mean he destroyed Ewing? Most of Hakeem's best games in the series the Knicks ended up winning. Cassel hitting that 3 pointer in game 3 and Starks having the WOAT game was why the Rockets won.

[iTare]

I dont think you understand how important defense is

No one was a better defensive anchor in the history of the league than Hakeem

I have Hakeem #6 all time, Magic #8

People forget how dominant this mother****er was on defense.
I do understand. I love Hakeem, my personal favorite center. I just feel like the way Magic dominated the pace on offense was huge. But so was the way Hakeem dominated on defense. I feel like they're both great players and you can choose one over the other depending on what your team needs.

[ShaqTwizzle]

And? He didn't win anything.

How is beating the 86 Laker's not anything?
How is taking two games off a GOAT team 86 Boston not anything?
How is doing all that in his 2nd year not special?

Then his team situation got really bad for awhile but that doesn't mean he wasn't a winner.
He "won" alot in his 2nd year.

Had they not ran into one of the true GOAT teams in the 86 Finals Hakeem probably would have won a title + FMVP in his 2nd year.

But he wasn't a Championship type player... what nonsense.
I mean no disrespect but I think your perception on this is just wrong/flawed.

Sometimes we believe things which aren't true... no shame in taking a step back and reconsidering things.
Happens to all of us... me included.

[stalkerforlife]

What do you mean he destroyed Ewing? Most of Hakeem's best games in the series the Knicks ended up winning. Cassel hitting that 3 pointer in game 3 and Starks having the WOAT game was why the Rockets won.

Ewing shot 36% in the finals against Hakeem. :banghead:

[GrapeApe]

What do you mean he destroyed Ewing? Most of Hakeem's best games in the series the Knicks ended up winning. Cassel hitting that 3 pointer in game 3 and Starks having the WOAT game was why the Rockets won.

I think people forget sometimes that Hakeem was a John starks disaster away from being viewed as a guy who couldn't get over the hump. Even if they still won the following season, the narrative would be that Hakeem needed Drexler to finally get it done. He was without question a great player, but he's taken on a bit of a mythical status, which seems to grow by the year. I guess that can probably be said of many all-time greats post-retirement, but when Hakeem played he was never regarded at the level that he seems to be currently perceived.

[game3524]

How is beating the 86 Laker's not anything?
How is taking two games off a GOAT team 86 Boston not anything?
How is doing all that in his 2nd year not special?

Then his team situation got really bad for awhile but that doesn't mean he wasn't a winner.
He "won" alot in his 2nd year.

Had they not ran into one of the true GOAT teams in the 86 Finals Hakeem probably would have won a title + FMVP in his 2nd year.

But he wasn't a Championship type player... what nonsense.
I mean no disrespect but I think your perception on this is just wrong/flawed.

Sometimes we believe things which aren't true... no shame in taking a step back and reconsidering things.
Happens to all of us... me included.

Again.....he didn't win anything.

Anyway this is less about Hakeem and more so about Magic. He was the engine of that team and his leadership and enthusiasm played a huge role in why they were able to win championships. Hell, Kareem has said that Magic's enthusiasm is what revitalized him, I don't see Hakeem replicating the kind of impact no matter how talented he is.

[game3524]

I think people forget sometimes that Hakeem was a John starks disaster away from being viewed as a guy who couldn't get over the hump. Even if they still won the following season, the narrative would be that Hakeem needed Drexler to finally get it done. He was without question a great player, but he's taken on a bit of a mythical status, which seems to grow by the year. I guess that can probably be said of many all-time greats post-retirement, but when Hakeem played he was never regarded at the level that he seems to be currently perceived.

This.

The way people talk on here, you would think that Hakeem was the 2nd best player behind Jordan for the majority of the 90s, which wasn't true.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sarcastic is joking, thats his gimmick.

[JohnnySic]

This.

The way people talk on here, you would think that Hakeem was the 2nd best player behind Jordan for the majority of the 90s, which wasn't true.
Other than Jordan, no one was better than Hakeen until about '96 when I'd give #2 to Shaq.

[ClipperRevival]

I think people forget sometimes that Hakeem was a John starks disaster away from being viewed as a guy who couldn't get over the hump. Even if they still won the following season, the narrative would be that Hakeem needed Drexler to finally get it done. He was without question a great player, but he's taken on a bit of a mythical status, which seems to grow by the year. I guess that can probably be said of many all-time greats post-retirement, but when Hakeem played he was never regarded at the level that he seems to be currently perceived.

Hakeem took that next step when MJ was gone and that carries weight. In 45 playoff games in those two championship seasons, he averaged:

30.9 ppg, 10.7 reb, 4.4 assists, 3.5 blocks and 1.5 spg along with a .526 FG% and 27.2 PER

He was clearly "the man", faced all time great centers in Ewing, Robinson and Shaq and deserves all the credit he gets. If another superstar had stepped up during MJ's void, they would get the credit to. But Hakeem showed his class.

[ClipperRevival]

This.

The way people talk on here, you would think that Hakeem was the 2nd best player behind Jordan for the majority of the 90s, which wasn't true.

He was the 2nd best player of the 90's. The only other two who even have a case is Malone or Shaq. But when you consider the individual numbers, accolades and rings, he was.

[Sarcastic]

Ewing shot 36% in the finals against Hakeem. :banghead:

And yet still could've won the series if Starks has a normal game 7. :rant

[fpliii]

He was the 2nd best player of the 90's. The only other two who even have a case is Malone or Shaq. But when you consider the individual numbers, accolades and rings, he was.
How far off is Robinson from Malone and Shaq for you? Obviously it hurts that he missed one year from injuries in 97, and something else (thumb I think?) knocked him out (including the playoffs) in 92. But that's still 8 terrific years.

[game3524]

Other than Jordan, no one was better than Hakeen until about '96 when I'd give #2 to Shaq.

That is bullshit.

Hakeem wasn't seen as the 2nd best player behind Jordan in 1990-1993. Magic, Chuck, Robinson, and Malone were all more highly regarded.

[90sgoat]

He was the 2nd best player of the 90's. The only other two who even have a case is Malone or Shaq. But when you consider the individual numbers, accolades and rings, he was.

I clearly remember this period because that was when I was first able to get my hands at Slam Magazine and watch games with regularity.

Hakeem was quite clearly considered the alpha dog in the NBA after those two years, even after MJ returned many people thought they would 3-peat.

He just fell off quick. In 94-96 the consensus was clearly that Hakeem was the best, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Robinson, they were afterthougts. From 90-93 I suppose Charles Barkley was the big nr. 2 since he also led the Dream Team in scoring.

Also, the second guy in the 90s after Hakeem was Malone not Shaq.

[game3524]

He was the 2nd best player of the 90's. The only other two who even have a case is Malone or Shaq. But when you consider the individual numbers, accolades and rings, he was.

Overall yes. But from year to year, outside of 1996, I don't think he was seen as the 2nd best player in the game.

[Sarcastic]

That is bullshit.

Hakeem wasn't seen as the 2nd best player behind Jordan in 1990-1993. Magic, Chuck, Robinson, and Malone were all more highly regarded.

In the 1980s Dominique was higher regarded as well. Probably Barkley too.

[ClipperRevival]

How far off is Robinson from Malone and Shaq for you? Obviously it hurts that he missed one year from injuries in 97, and something else (thumb I think?) knocked him out (including the playoffs) in 92. But that's still 8 terrific years.

DRob is the other guy I was thinking about. But what hurts him is his play really dropped off after the 1996 season and you add in his choke jobs against inferior teams in the early 90's and that clearly puts him behind Malone and Shaq.

[ClipperRevival]

Forgot about Barkley and Ewing. Great era for superstars.

[Fallen Angel]

Your argument is invalid when you use memes in your posts

Grow up

[mehyaM24]

hakeem would be considered a one-hit wonder in the 90s had jordan never retired (winning only one title either in 94 or 95).

sure, hakeem was great and it was his league from 1993-1995, but people didn't talk about him in the 80s & early 90s, because he was a bad teammate putting up empty stats. outside of the 86 run, he and the rockets didn't do jack.

magic oth, led LA to the finals the SAME season he was drafted, winning a fmvp with one of the greatest finals performances ever. keep in mind, the lakers were a mere 47-35 just a year before - essentially playoff fodder during kareem's tenure as "the man".

and just as another poster said, magic took an injured byron scott and james worthy to the finals in 1991, and still managed to get 1 game despite both players sitting out the last game of the series.

magic > hakeem, and its not close. its basically a peak vs peak/prime/career argument - the latter belongs to magic.

[feyki]

Magic is goat offensive player to me . Hakeem also second goat defensive player to me . Magic had a little bit better career impact . Both had 11-12 years primes . Actually , Magic had a big chance than Hakeem and that was Worthy . Kareem got old after 1985 . But Worthy was an amazing player at between 85 to 90 . Hakeem was so unlucky . But when we look at the impacts , we could say that both are close players as a individual level .

I choose Magic above Hakeem , slightly .

[ClipperRevival]

hakeem would be considered a one-hit wonder in the 90s had jordan never retired (winning only one title either in 94 or 95).

sure, hakeem was great and it was his league from 1993-1995, but people didn't talk about him in the 80s & early 90s, because he was a bad teammate putting up empty stats. outside of the 86 run, he and the rockets didn't do jack.

magic oth, led LA to the finals the SAME season he was drafted, winning a fmvp with one of the greatest finals performances ever. keep in mind, the lakers were a mere 47-35 just a year before - essentially playoff fodder during kareem's tenure as "the man".

and just as another poster said, magic took an injured byron scott and james worthy to the finals in 1991, and still managed to get 1 game despite both players sitting out the last game of the series.

magic > hakeem, and its not close. its basically a peak vs peak/prime/career argument - the latter belongs to magic.

That's not fair to Hakeem because he started playing the game very late at 15 and was very raw when he got into the league. However, he was still an impactful player right from the get go and his numbers from 1985 through 1990 (his first 6 seasons) are still very impressive.

23.2 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.4 bpg, 2.0 spg, .515 FG%, 23.6 PER

He was making All-Defensive teams right out of the gates. He just didn't polish up his game and completely know how to win and lead the right way until the early 90's. But he was always an elite talent right out of the gates.

[FKAri]

Dude has 11 rings than Vince. Just saying.

I have 12 rings in my backyard summer hoops tournament

[mehyaM24]

That's not fair to Hakeem because he started playing the game very late at 15 and was very raw when he got into the league. However, he was still an impactful player right from the get go and his numbers from 1985 through 1990 (his 6 seasons) are still very impressive.

23.2 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.4 bpg, 2.0 spg, .515 FG%, 23.6 PER

He was making All-Defensive teams right out of the gates. He just didn't polish up his game and completely know how to win and lead the right way until the early 90's. But he was always an elite talent right out of the gates.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Qqq8b2K5qsg8M/giphy.gif



hakeem was the adrian dantley of centers until he quit being a dickhead.

and that's the reality here. magic's in another class of his own, and arguably the greatest conductor of a team.

[ClipperRevival]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Qqq8b2K5qsg8M/giphy.gif



hakeem was the adrian dantley of centers until he quit being a dickhead.

and that's the reality here. magic's in another class of his own, and arguably the greatest conductor of a team.

Weak.

First off, Hakeem played both ends. Dantley didn't. And Dantley made All-NBA 2nd team just twice his entire career.

Just his first 6 seasons, Hakeem made:

All-NBA 1st team 3 times
All-NBA 2nd team 2 times
All-NBA Defensive 1st team 3 times
All-NBA Defensive 2nd team once

That's elite impact. Best of the best. He wasn't just some black hole offensively. He was much more than that. I can admit he wasn't as polished as his championship runs but that doesn't change his status in the league and where he stood amongst his peers. Hakeem was a level above Dantley in terms of impact.

[ShaqTwizzle]

hakeem was the adrian dantley of centers until he quit being a dickhead.

Jordan won less playoff games then Hakeem in the 80's.
Was he also a Dantley?

Team circumstances matter. Alot.

[HighFlyer23]

Point guard is the most overrated and overvalued position in the game

Magic Johnson didn't play on both sides of the floor like Hakeem did

[mehyaM24]

Weak.

First off, Hakeem played both ends. Dantley didn't. And Dantley made All-NBA 2nd team just twice his entire career.

Just his first 6 seasons, Hakeem made:

All-NBA 1st team 3 times
All-NBA 2nd team 2 times
All-NBA Defensive 1st team 3 times
All-NBA Defensive 2nd team once

That's elite impact. Best of the best. He wasn't just some black hole offensively. He was much more than that. I can admit he wasn't as polished as his championship runs but that doesn't change his status in the league and where he stood amongst his peers. Hakeem was a level above Dantley in terms of impact.

if you had any critical thinking skills, you would have understood i was comparing their attitudes and value to their respective teams.

not once did i compare them as players

i couldn't care less about "all-defensive teams" & other bullshit that oldBe has made a joke of.

hakeem was a black hole and even his coach admitted it.

"We lived through those early days when he was the proverbial black hole on offense. You threw the ball in and it never came out. He’d say, 'Why should I pass to somebody who shoots 33 percent when I make more than 50 percent?’ You know, from a logical standpoint, he was right for that time. But over the years he learned and Rudy got it to click in his mind and that’s when they won championships.” - Bill Fitch

but we're supposed to take you box-score watchers seriously? thinking you know what you're talking about because you can read a stat-line and "accomplishments" on wikipedia.

:oldlol:

hakeem was great, but overrated when idiots try to compare him to either magic, kareem & mike. its as simple as that.

[Pointguard]

Magic Johnson is generally ranked higher than Hakeem Ojajuwon on all-time greatest lists but Hakeem was a better player. Worlds better on defense and quite frankly better on offense except for passing.

Offensively they aren't on the same planet.

Not only was Magic much more efficient - not supposed to be that way, he was much more alert to his teams needs, way more adaptable, much more capable of getting teammates easy baskets, more interconnected to his teammates offensively, played a more heady game, was a better inspirational leader, best controller of pace and capable of getting guys like Rambis to be more efficient than Hakeem. In fact, in the years they played together Magic had his whole team shoot considerably better than Hakeem's career (and the center has the best FG% on the team usually). And that's directly related to Magic running the offense and getting easy baskets.

As far as things outside of scoring, Magic might have him there as well. See below.

[juju151111]

hakeem would be considered a one-hit wonder in the 90s had jordan never retired (winning only one title either in 94 or 95).

sure, hakeem was great and it was his league from 1993-1995, but people didn't talk about him in the 80s & early 90s, because he was a bad teammate putting up empty stats. outside of the 86 run, he and the rockets didn't do jack.

magic oth, led LA to the finals the SAME season he was drafted, winning a fmvp with one of the greatest finals performances ever. keep in mind, the lakers were a mere 47-35 just a year before - essentially playoff fodder during kareem's tenure as "the man".

and just as another poster said, magic took an injured byron scott and james worthy to the finals in 1991, and still managed to get 1 game despite both players sitting out the last game of the series.

magic > hakeem, and its not close. its basically a peak vs peak/prime/career argument - the latter belongs to magic.
Give Hakeem Magic teams from the 80s. I would take Hakeem. Not saying Magic isn't great

[juju151111]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Qqq8b2K5qsg8M/giphy.gif



hakeem was the adrian dantley of centers until he quit being a dickhead.

and that's the reality here. magic's in another class of his own, and arguably the greatest conductor of a team.
Adrian Dantley led his team to the finals?:wtf:

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]if you had any critical thinking skills, you would have understood i was comparing their attitudes and value to their respective teams.

not once did i compare them as players

i couldn't care less about "all-defensive teams" & other bullshit that oldBe has made a joke of.

hakeem was a black hole and even his coach admitted it.

[B][I]"We lived through those early days when he was the proverbial black hole on offense. You threw the ball in and it never came out. He

[Pointguard]

Point guard is the most overrated and overvalued position in the game

Magic Johnson didn't play on both sides of the floor like Hakeem did
PG, especially the way Magic played it, had way more control of the game.

Defensively, opponents had to play Magic's game - You play SA in '14 you got caught up in playing their game. This is why Pop loved Kidd who could get to the finals two years straight with this as his staple hold. SA could beat Miami because they mastered this feature. But All teams attempt to have the game played on their terms.

Magic controlled pace - Clevelend could beat GS (the best offensive team the best defensive team while being the most explosive team) two games with only player making noise through controlling pace, like Boston '11, Piston '04, SA '03, Dallas '11. Magic could outrun the best running teams, and the slow down game with great teams as well.

If this was considered defense straight up like it is in every other sport, Magic has the edge on most GOAT's defensively. Most teams played tentatively on offense because of fear of turnovers. Its unconventional defense in basketball but if you play other sports you know when a player kills you on these terms. You never doubt it.

[game3524]

Give Hakeem Magic teams from the 80s. I would take Hakeem. Not saying Magic isn't great

People are really underestimating the impact Magic had on his team. 80's Hakeem isn't replicating that.

[mehyaM24]

Hakeem team was garbage. I remember i read a article his PG could barley dribble the ball up the floor. Hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd year and beat the goat team twice.

not garbage enough to make the finals, and if you read, hakeem's coach didn't exactly think highly of his play. insinuating hakeem padded stats and refused to play winning ball.

hakeem isn't doing anything on the lakers except making them worse.

magic is the goat offensive player - hakeem is a top 5 defender, at best.
give me the former ALL DAY.

[juju151111]

People are really underestimating the impact Magic had on his team. 80's Hakeem isn't replicating that.
Im not underestimating Magic. He in my top 5 because of peak/career.

[Smoke117]

I agree.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem took the Rockets the finals in his 2nd year as the best player of his team. In the 80s, the goat decade. Hakeem is underrated. Had he had Magic and Bird casts (also Barkley) he would have one like 7 rings. Hakeem was the 3rd best player in the game from 1989-1993 after MJ and Barkley and 2nd Best from 89-95 overall. He has more impact than Bird but Bird was the best all around player of the 80s. Hakeem was better than Magic IMO

[plowking]

Every player in the top 10 had a better peak than Magic Johnson. Every single one.

Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Kobe, LeBron and Duncan.

[SouBeachTalents]

Every player in the top 10 had a better peak than Magic Johnson. Every single one.

Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Kobe, LeBron and Duncan.

Disagree. '87 Magic > any Kobe season

[juju151111]

not garbage enough to make the finals, and if you read, hakeem's coach didn't exactly think highly of his play. insinuating hakeem padded stats and refused to play winning ball.

hakeem isn't doing anything on the lakers except making them worse.

magic is the goat offensive player - hakeem is a top 5 defender, at best.
give me the former ALL DAY.
Im not saying its wrong with taking Magic. But give Hakeem a PG with the Impact of Kareem,Worthy,Scott DPOY Cooper,Thompsonetc.... in the 80s and he ****ing wrecks. Hakeem isn't the type like say Kareem who underperforms sometimes against atg Bigs. Hakeem took large shit on playoffs against atg bigs in 86,93,94,95 etc... Thomond, and others had success guarding Kareem because of strength. Hakeem has too much moves

[greatest-ever]

That's tough for me because, Magic is imo, a top 3 or 5 offensive player of all time, and he has the rings, the mvps just an outstanding resume. On the other hand, Hakeem is a top 5 or 10 defender ever, and was a very good offensive player himself i mean the dude averaged 33 on 56 ts% in one of his title runs. Hakeem has better longevity, 2 rings of his own, and clearly peaked higher imo, so i'd probably rate him higher but it's almost a tossup to me.

[plowking]

Disagree. '87 Magic > any Kobe season

Even so, you get that point though.

Playing for nice teams your whole career doesn't make you a better player. At least not in my book.

[bobopenguin]

magic made everyone shines around him, whether they were stars or not.

[mehyaM24]

Im not saying its wrong with taking Magic. But give Hakeem a PG with the Impact of Kareem,Worthy,Scott DPOY Cooper,Thompsonetc.... in the 80s and he ****ing wrecks. Hakeem isn't the type like say Kareem who underperforms sometimes against atg Bigs. Hakeem took large shit on playoffs against atg bigs in 86,93,94,95 etc... Thomond, and others had success guarding Kareem because of strength.

Hakeem has too much moves

i know you aren't.

but i'm telling you that magic was a better player than hakeem, every single year in the 80s.

hakeem's own ****ing coach called him a statpadidng knucklehead who didn't pass the ball.

you replace magic with hakeem and the rockets get better with sampson, while the lakers get worse. kareem & hakeem "meshing" is straight up laughable.


Every player in the top 10 had a better peak than Magic Johnson. Every single one.

Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Kobe, LeBron and Duncan.

lol

peak magic is better than half of that list, and his prime is about as good as anyone outside of jordan.

discrediting players because of their team strength? that's ironic.

[mehyaM24]

Hakeem took the Rockets the finals in his 2nd year as the best player of his team. In the 80s, the goat decade. Hakeem is underrated. Had he had Magic and Bird casts (also Barkley) he would have one like 7 rings. Hakeem was the 3rd best player in the game from 1989-1993 after MJ and Barkley and 2nd Best from 89-95 overall. He has more impact than Bird but Bird was the best all around player of the 80s. Hakeem was better than Magic IMO

lmfao

[72-10]

If by best you mean moderately better than Ralph Sampson, then yeah. Magic was better throughout the 80s than Hakeem.

[Pointguard]

Every player in the top 10 had a better peak than Magic Johnson. Every single one.

Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Kobe, LeBron and Duncan.
At a very simple look at stats level sure. But I know Wilt isn't number one on your list either. Magic played a more mental game, a better team game, a very adaptable game, he sacrificed better, he highlighed teammates better, he ran a team better than all of them year in and year out. He ran the best offensive team ever the first year he was given the team. Its like you looking at cars and the dealer says this is the engine and that's the steering wheel and you have no idea how they function. His two year peak, which included one bad year by Kareem, btw, was the best, most complete, basketball repertoire ever on a court. He was their best player and the best team player in the game in his peak. Bird was there with him and its something they have. Along with changing the game with their wit, smart judgement and proficiency.

[1987_Lakers]

If anyone is overrated career wise it is Hakeem, I laugh at anyone who has him in their top 10 players ever list. This guy had like a 5 year span in his prime where he couldn't get past the 1st round.

[jongib369]

Even so, you get that point though.

Playing for nice teams your whole career doesn't make you a better player. At least not in my book.
This

[SouBeachTalents]

If anyone is overrated career wise it is Hakeem, I laugh at anyone who has him in their top 10 players ever list. This guy had like a 5 year span in his prime where he couldn't get past the 1st round.

It's a valid criticism, but Hakeem also had BY FAR the worst supporting cast out of anyone in the top 10. And no matter how great a player is, if his team isn't good, he won't have a lot of playoff success. Wade went 4 years, Oscar went 6, KG went 8, while Kobe and even the GOAT Jordan himself both went 3 years without winning a playoff series

[dubeta]

It's a valid criticism, but Hakeem also had BY FAR the worst supporting cast out of anyone in the top 10. And no matter how great a player is, if his team isn't good, he won't have a lot of playoff success. Wade went 4 years, Oscar went 6, KG went 8, while Kobe and even the GOAT Jordan himself both went 3 years without winning a playoff series

LOL? LeBrons cast is worse. Only time LeBron had a championship level cast was 2012, and EVEN then Bosh was injured

[SouBeachTalents]

LOL? LeBrons cast is worse. Only time LeBron had a championship level cast was 2012, and EVEN then Bosh was injured

Lol, so 2011 wasn't championship level with a top 5 player in the league & a 19/9 big man? If it wasn't, why did LeBron make his "not 8" proclamation?

[dubeta]

Lol, so 2011 wasn't championship level with a top 5 player in the league & a 19/9 big man? If it wasn't, why did LeBron make his "not 8" proclamation?

Any team with a 'big 3' gets a pass in their first year for chemistry issues, gameplanning, coaching etc.


If the Celtics didnt win in 2008, they wouldve also gotten a pass since it was their first year together.


Heck the Heat started 9-8 remember?? There was clearly some chemistry issues, especially with the WOAT coach Spoelstra leading the way

No one can hold that 2011 season against Miami, the first year is ALWAYS a pass

[Young X]

If anyone is overrated career wise it is Hakeem, I laugh at anyone who has him in their top 10 players ever list. This guy had like a 5 year span in his prime where he couldn't get past the 1st round.You have to look at the team he had around him. How the hell were the Rockets supposed to beat the Lakers or Mavs or whoever else they faced with the level of coaching and supporting cast they put around Hakeem? Hakeem played with a bunch of chuckers and 2 of his teammates even got suspended from the league because of drug issues. Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq never came close to having to play in an environment like that.

This is what Laker fans can't comprehend. Not everybody is blessed to be able to play the majority (or all) of their careers with a winning franchise. You can't hold everybody to the standards you have. Some of the best players of all time got drafted to unstable organizations and had to struggle for long stretches in their careers because of it (Hakeem, Barkley, KG). That doesn't mean they were any less of a player.

[TheBigVeto]

I've gotten shit on here for saying Magic's overrated and a guy who's career is often looked back on nostalgically with roses tinted glasses. However I still have him as a top 7-8 player ever and above Hakeem.

Magic is overrated.

[juju151111]

If anyone is overrated career wise it is Hakeem, I laugh at anyone who has him in their top 10 players ever list. This guy had like a 5 year span in his prime where he couldn't get past the 1st round.
Another dumbass^^^

[juju151111]

i know you aren't.

but i'm telling you that magic was a better player than hakeem, every single year in the 80s.

hakeem's own ****ing coach called him a statpadidng knucklehead who didn't pass the ball.

you replace magic with hakeem and the rockets get better with sampson, while the lakers get worse. kareem & hakeem "meshing" is straight up laughable.



lol

peak magic is better than half of that list, and his prime is about as good as anyone outside of jordan.

discrediting players because of their team strength? that's ironic.
Didn't you just post a quote saying he didn't pass because his team was scrubs? His team were freaking crackheads. His PG got suspended because of crack. Also Hakeem nows how to play with another big. I said give Hakeem a PG with the impact of Kareem like Magic had and add the rest of the players.

Hakeem with allstar squad dominates just has much hss magic if not more

[juju151111]

You have to look at the team he had around him. How the hell were the Rockets supposed to beat the Lakers or Mavs or whoever else they faced with the level of coaching and supporting cast they put around Hakeem? Hakeem played with a bunch of chuckers and 2 of his teammates even got suspended from the league because of drug issues. Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq never came close to having to play in an environment like that.

This is what Laker fans can't comprehend. Not everybody is blessed to be able to play the majority (or all) of their careers with a winning franchise. You can't hold everybody to the standards you have. Some of the best players of all time got drafted to unstable organizations and had to struggle for long stretches in their careers because of it (Hakeem, Barkley, KG). That doesn't mean they were any less of a player.
His team was literally full of crackheads

[mehyaM24]

magic took perennial playoff fodder to the finals his first year in the league. the lakers only won 47 games the season before he was drafted lol


Didn't you just post a quote saying he didn't pass because his team was scrubs? His team were freaking crackheads. His PG got suspended because of crack. Also Hakeem nows how to play with another big. I said give Hakeem a PG with the impact of Kareem like Magic had and add the rest of the players.

Hakeem with allstar squad dominates just has much hss magic if not more

he was a crackhead himself (figuratively) - not passing to teammates because "i am a 50% shooter and more efficient." :oldlol:

hakeem was a cancerous black-hole in the 80s, as per his coach. keep ignoring the big picture though.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't think people are aware how low Hakeem's stock was in the early 90's, if you asked people in 1992 who is the best center in the league, most would have said David Robinson with Patrick Ewing right behind him.

This is a guy who faked being injured in the 1992 season, once the Rockets found out it was a lie, they suspended Hakeem. I bet you 90% of the people here didn't know that. Yet, you guys here are saying "Hakeem had a bad supporting cast around that time"....F.uck that! What type of franchise player fakes an injury? Dude deserves some blame for the Rockets being trash in the early 90's.

It got so bad that the Rockets during the summer of '92 entertained the idea of trading Hakeem for Rony Seikaly.

I've never seen a player like Hakeem get so much praise for his peak seasons in '94 & '95 then completely ignore the failures rest of his career. Anyone who has Hakeem in their top 10 all-time players list doesn't know jack shit about the game.

Just my 2 cents.

[sportjames23]

That isn't really true at all.
Hakeem had a longer Prime then Kobe and a normal length Peak stretch.

People ignore his early years because he was in a shitty team situation.

Also didn't a baby Hakeem in the 80's take down a Peak Magic led Laker team in the playoffs...?
Something to think about.
:pimp:


Magic owned Dream in the playoffs after that.

[sportjames23]

Hakeem is the most overrated all-time great on this forum.

Magic was the better player, he is one of the few players(not even MJ can make this claim...) that you can put bums around him and still manage to win 50 games every year.


I'm sorry, but you can't just put bums around ANY player in league history and win 50 games every year.

[Straight_Ballin]

I don't think people are aware how low Hakeem's stock was in the early 90's, if you asked people in 1992 who is the best center in the league, most would have said David Robinson with Patrick Ewing right behind him.

This is a guy who faked being injured in the 1992 season, once the Rockets found out it was a lie, they suspended Hakeem. I bet you 90% of the people here didn't know that. Yet, you guys here are saying "Hakeem had a bad supporting cast around that time"....F.uck that! What type of franchise player fakes an injury?Dude deserves some blame for the Rockets being trash in the early 90's.

It got so bad that the Rockets during the summer of '92 entertained the idea of trading Hakeem for Rony Seikaly.

I've never seen a player like Hakeem get so much praise for his peak seasons in '94 & '95 then completely ignore the failures rest of his career. Anyone who has Hakeem in their top 10 all-time players list doesn't know jack shit about the game.

Just my 2 cents.

Lebron

[dubeta]

Lebron

Didnt Jordan fake an injury his 2nd year just so he could rest up for the playoffs? Dude took the season off just to prepare himself for the playoffs and finally get out of the 1st round :lol







Still ended up 1-9

[Straight_Ballin]

Any team with a 'big 3' gets a pass in their first year for chemistry issues, gameplanning, coaching etc.


If the Celtics didnt win in 2008, they wouldve also gotten a pass since it was their first year together.


Heck the Heat started 9-8 remember?? There was clearly some chemistry issues, especially with the WOAT coach Spoelstra leading the way

No one can hold that 2011 season against Miami, the first year is ALWAYS a pass

The Celtics DID win in 08 so they set the precident that when forming a super team like Bron, Bosh and Wade did, that there is NO EXCUSE for losing even if it's the first year together.

2/6

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron

LeBron also has 3 more MVPs than Hakeem, the same amount of championships, has been to the Finals 3 more times, carried trash teams to 60+ wins in 2009 & 2010 (something Hakeem couldn't do), & he hasn't even retired yet, yet some people actually believe Hakeem was a greater player.:oldlol:

[TommyGriffin]

Lebron

http://media.cleveland.com/dsn/photo/9085570-small.jpg

[juju151111]

magic took perennial playoff fodder to the finals his first year in the league. the lakers only won 47 games the season before he was drafted lol



he was a crackhead himself (figuratively) - not passing to teammates because "i am a 50% shooter and more efficient." :oldlol:

hakeem was a cancerous black-hole in the 80s, as per his coach. keep ignoring the big picture though.
Never seen a canserous blackhole take his team to the finals while upsetting the Lakers. Crackhead PG and Crackhead Pf/C Sampson

[juju151111]

I don't think people are aware how low Hakeem's stock was in the early 90's, if you asked people in 1992 who is the best center in the league, most would have said David Robinson with Patrick Ewing right behind him.

This is a guy who faked being injured in the 1992 season, once the Rockets found out it was a lie, they suspended Hakeem. I bet you 90% of the people here didn't know that. Yet, you guys here are saying "Hakeem had a bad supporting cast around that time"....F.uck that! What type of franchise player fakes an injury? Dude deserves some blame for the Rockets being trash in the early 90's.

It got so bad that the Rockets during the summer of '92 entertained the idea of trading Hakeem for Rony Seikaly.

I've never seen a player like Hakeem get so much praise for his peak seasons in '94 & '95 then completely ignore the failures rest of his career. Anyone who has Hakeem in their top 10 all-time players list doesn't know jack shit about the game.

Just my 2 cents.
Mj was saying he would choose Hakeem over any big to play with. Also the Rocke5s were being shady with him in terms of pay and other things. Also nobody gives a **** about that just like nobody gives a **** that Magic got his coach fired. We are talking about both guys impact stop bringing up nonsense. The 90%in 92 would of been wrong because Hakeem took Ewing,Robinson to ****ing school :roll: peak season of 94 and 95? Hakeem was a beast since day 1. He was leading crackheads to nba finals appearances and upsetting Showtime Lakers.

[juju151111]

LeBron also has 3 more MVPs than Hakeem, the same amount of championships, has been to the Finals 3 more times, carried trash teams to 60+ wins in 2009 & 2010 (something Hakeem couldn't do), & he hasn't even retired yet, yet some people actually believe Hakeem was a greater player.:oldlol:
Nash has more then Kobe and Shaq:lol

[mehyaM24]

Never seen a canserous blackhole take his team to the finals while upsetting the Lakers. Crackhead PG and Crackhead Pf/C Sampson

lol "crackhead sampson" was arguably a better defensive player, and one of the best bigs in the league at the time.

its alright though. i think i'll roll with the coaches opinion here.

[1987_Lakers]

Mj was saying he would choose Hakeem over any big to play with. Also the Rocke5s were being shady with him in terms of pay and other things. Also nobody gives a **** about that just like nobody gives a **** that Magic got his coach fired. We are talking about both guys impact stop bringing up nonsense. The 90%in 92 would of been wrong because Hakeem took Ewing,Robinson to ****ing school :roll: peak season of 94 and 95? Hakeem was a beast since day 1. He was leading crackheads to nba finals appearances and upsetting Showtime Lakers.

MJ also has James Worthy in his all-time starting 5 and he has proven to be a terrible GM.:roll:

Sorry, just can't ignore how Hakeem couldn't get past the first round for 5 straight years during his prime and basically faked an injury, he is one of the 5 greatest centers of all-time, but you are reaching if you think he is a top 10 player ever.

[juju151111]

lol "crackhead sampson" was arguably a better defensive player, and one of the best bigs in the league at the time.

its alright though. i think i'll roll with the coaches opinion here.
Arguably my ass. Go ahead argue it:roll: :lol :lol

[juju151111]

MJ also has James Worthy in his all-time starting 5 and he has proven to be a terrible GM.:roll:

Sorry, just can't ignore how Hakeem couldn't get past the first round for 5 straight years during his prime and basically faked an injury, he is one of the 5 greatest centers of all-time, but you are reaching if you think he is a top 10 player ever.
He played against Hakeem so ill take Mj word over your dumbass. James Worthy was Mj College teammate obviously he was being bias. He couldn't get pass the first round because he was playing with crackheads and garbage ass teammates. Hakeem was showing up in the playoffs then just like in 93-95, but no teammates.

[mehyaM24]

Arguably my ass. Go ahead argue it:roll: :lol :lol

all-star and one of the best bigs in the league.

but he was a crackhead.. imagine if he was sober and hakeem actually passed to him? :eek:

[juju151111]

Last time i checked Hakeem brought scrubs to the finals in 94. Then his role player maxwell tried to sabotage his team in the 95 playoffs and Hakeem beat like 3 60 win teams :roll: :lol :lol with no home court advantage :roll: :lol

[1987_Lakers]

He played against Hakeem so ill take Mj word over your dumbass. James Worthy was Mj College teammate obviously he was being bias. He couldn't get pass the first round because he was playing with crackheads and garbage ass teammates. Hakeem was showing up in the playoffs then just like in 93-95, but no teammates.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

5 straight years without making it out of the first round.:roll:

"Top 10 player ever doe."

[juju151111]

all-star and one of the best bigs in the league.

but he was a crackhead.. imagine if he was sober and hakeem actually passed to him? :eek:
What are you talking about?You said Sampson was arguably a better defensive player.Thats wat i was laughing at. Upset the Showtime Lakers and and stole 2 games from top 3 atg team with two crackheads on his team. Also did it with Sampson getting ejected in game 5.

[juju151111]

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

5 straight years without making it out of the first round.:roll:

"Top 10 player ever doe."
I don't give a damn what you say. He performed and had no help. I judge players differently then you it seems. So lets agree to disagree.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't give a damn what you say. He performed and had no help. I judge players differently then you it seems. So lets agree to disagree.

For a minute I thought you were gonna plagiarize something onto here like you did in the other thread.:lol

[juju151111]

For a minute I thought you were gonna plagiarize something onto here like you did in the other thread.:lol
Whatever you say. Anything i posted or Plagiarized/quoted was right anyways. Facts who ur top 10

[juju151111]

1987 just wondering who is your top 10

[mehyaM24]

What are you talking about?You said Sampson was arguably a better defensive player.Thats wat i was laughing at. Upset the Showtime Lakers and and stole 2 games from top 3 atg team with two crackheads on his team. Also did it with Sampson getting ejected in game 5.

he WAS one of the best defensive players in the league - and arguably better than hakeem on that end. that guy was a beast on defense and as i said, an all star.

picture this dude without a "crack problem", and having hakeem actually pass him the ball.

[1987_Lakers]

1987 just wondering who is your top 10

At the moment it would probably look something like...

1. MJ
2. Kareem (One of the most disrespected NBA legends, gets ignored alot)
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird (Bird was better than Magic peak wise, Magic had a better career)
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq (Top 3 ever in terms of peak play)
10. LeBron (Has had a more complete career than Hakeem, pretty obvious)

[juju151111]

he WAS one of the best defensive players in the league - and arguably better than hakeem on that end. that guy was a beast on defense and as i said, an all star.

picture this dude without a "crack problem", and having hakeem actually pass him the ball.
Got the ball plenty. Choked like a bitch 86 finals. You said you could argue it. Im saying their isn't any argument. He a crackhead along woth Lucas who git suspended in 87 playoffs for crack.

[mehyaM24]

Got the ball plenty. Choked like a bitch 86 finals. You said you could argue it. Im saying their isn't any argument. He a crackhead along woth Lucas who git suspended in 87 playoffs for crack.

meanwhile, hakeem refused to pass the ball to other players that shot lower percentages than him.

a documented fact that i have YET to see you refute.

[juju151111]

At the moment it would probably look something like...

1. MJ
2. Kareem (One of the most disrespected NBA legends, gets ignored alot)
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird (Bird was better than Magic peak wise, Magic had a better career)
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq (Top 3 ever in terms of peak play)
10. LeBron (Has had a more complete career than Hakeem, pretty obvious)
Didn't Kobe miss the playoffs in 05, then got raped in 06 and 07 first round. Then finally broke through with Gasol,bynum,Ariza. Why didn't Kobe suceed in 06 and 07, but started succeeding after getting great teammates. Interesting. Didn't Shaq lose in first round alot. Why was this.

Why is Kobe rated higher then Hakeem.

[mehyaM24]

hakeem had 3-4 players average ~15ppg throughout the 1986 playoffs (sampson being an all-star & one of the best defensive players in all the league)

no help though. all crackheads slinging rock on the street. :hammerhead:

[juju151111]

meanwhile, hakeem refused to pass the ball to other players that shot lower percentages than him.

a documented fact that i have YET to see you refute.
Maybe because they wete crackheads and he knew it. It wasn't a problem in 86 through. 87 and after is when those stories started because of his crackhead teammates messing up the team.

[mehyaM24]

Maybe because they wete crackheads and he knew it. It wasn't a problem in 86 through. 87 and after is when those stories started because of his crackhead teammates messing up the team.

crackheads that help your team make the playoffs? another crackhead that was an all-star?

what they put in that crack doe? :confusedshrug:

btw- this was documented throughout the 80s, before rudy t became coach and slapped some sense into the "black hole".

[1987_Lakers]

Why is Kobe rated higher then Hakeem.

It's pretty obvious if you ask me, more championships, better longevity, more individual awards/honors etc.

Kobe flat out accomplished more in his career.

[juju151111]

It's pretty obvious if you ask me, more championships, better longevity, more individual awards etc.

Kobe flat out accomplished more in his career.
Ok, It seems we really just have different values and way to judge people. I agree with Magic over Bird through. Of course Kobe has more accomplishments. I would never draft Kobe over Hakeem giving bith the same situations. Thats my point here. Put them on level playing field and I think Hakeem>Kobe.

Also Meyhem a quote from the crackhead

Sampson:*My skills were a little bit farther from the basket. Hakeem had the body and ability to be in the low post. I could go into the post. He could go into the post and pass out. It became a great fit very quickly.:bowdown:

[juju151111]

hakeem had 3-4 players average ~15ppg throughout the 1986 playoffs (sampson being an all-star & one of the best defensive players in all the league)

no help though. all crackheads slinging rock on the street. :hammerhead:
Sampson:*My skills were a little bit farther from the basket. Hakeem had the body and ability to be in the low post. I could go into the post. He could go into the post and pass out. It became a great fit very quickly.

[1987_Lakers]

Ok, It seems we really just have different values and way to judge people. I agree with Magic over Bird through. Of course Kobe has more accomplishments. I would never draft Kobe over Hakeem giving bith the same situations. Thats my point here. Put them on level playing field and I think Hakeem>Kobe.

The problem with this is you are judging players simply off something hypothetical, a what if scenario. That is wrong.

You have to judge simply off FACTS, and Kobe had a more successful career than Hakeem.

[mehyaM24]

could* being the emphasis

yea sampson and hakeem were a good fit.

if only hakeem realized this sooner, and passed dude the ball more.

"Nobody ever talks about where he started from,” Fitch said. “He was not anywhere near a finished product coming out of college.

“We lived through those early days when he was the proverbial black hole on offense."

yikes.

[juju151111]

The problem with this is you are judging players simply off something hypothetical, a what if scenario. That is wrong.

You have to judge simply off FACTS, and Kobe had a more successful career than Hakeem.
We just have different reasoning. I just player mostly on performance and career too, but Performance matters to me alot. Also just read up on the Rockets. Turmoil in the late 80s. 3 of their guards were suspended not only one and Sampson messed up his knee and had surgeries came back in 8 weeks.:roll: Same players today that take a whole damn year off. He was done. Lol at blaming Hakeem for all the turmoil going on all around him with crackhead teammates,phyco coaches, and stupid medical staff http://grantland.com/features/an-oral-history-hakeem-olajuwon-ralph-sampson-1980s-houston-rockets/

[juju151111]

could* being the emphasis

yea sampson and hakeem were a good fit.

if only hakeem realized this sooner, and passed dude the ball more.

"Nobody ever talks about where he started from,” Fitch said. “He was not anywhere near a finished product coming out of college.

“We lived through those early days when he was the proverbial black hole on offense."

yikes.
Early days could be rookie season. Means nothing. They were a good fit. Also i read up on the Rockets. They were actually 4 players taking crack. Worse then i thought. Hakeem didn't know wat was going on

http://grantland.com/features/an-oral-history-hakeem-olajuwon-ralph-sampson-1980s-houston-rockets/

[game3524]

If anyone is overrated career wise it is Hakeem, I laugh at anyone who has him in their top 10 players ever list. This guy had like a 5 year span in his prime where he couldn't get past the 1st round.

Yup.

Seriously, no superstar has received as much revisionist history as Hakeem. In 1991, no one would have taking him over David Robinson or Charles Barkley, but do to his two year run(when the best player in the game is out), people now think he is unanimous top ten player.

It is a ****ing joke how overrated he has become on here.

[JohnnySic]

Yup.

Seriously, no superstar has received as much revisionist history as Hakeem. In 1991, no one would have taking him over David Robinson or Charles Barkley, but do to his two year run(when the best player in the game is out), people now think he is unanimous top ten player.

It is a ****ing joke how overrated he has become on here.
Hakeem was always a superior player to Robinson and Barkley. Team success (lack thereof) kept him off the radar.

[game3524]

Hakeem was always a superior player to Robinson and Barkley. Team success (lack thereof) kept him off the radar.

No, he wasn't.

People are forgetting how good Barkley and Robinson were. These guys were in discussion for league's best player in 1991, a time period when Jordan was at his peak.

[Dr Hawk]

Hakeem=Top3 player all time

[JohnnySic]

One last note on Magic before I bail on this powderkeg thread: Magic never really "wowed" me the way superstars do. I will go back and watch clips of him now - he's distributing the ball to Kareem for the skyhook, to Worthy for wide open dunks, to Scott for 3 pointers - great passer, great court vision, nice leader - but overall, meh. Put Austin Rivers in that situation and he'd look great. Not Magic great, Magic was a legitimate great one, but still......meh.

Bird wowed me. MJ obviously wowed me. Even Isiah Thomas, who no one ranks with these others, wowed me. Magic.....................meh.

[Young X]

^ I can't believe you just said that.

[JohnnySic]

No, he wasn't.

People are forgetting how good Barkley and Robinson were. These guys were in discussion for league's best player in 1991, a time period when Jordan was at his peak.
Robert Horry played with Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem and said Hakeem was the best one of the 3. I'll take his word for it.

Are Barkley and Robinson better than those guys? LOL!

[mehyaM24]

One last note on Magic before I bail on this powderkeg thread: Magic never really "wowed" me the way superstars do. I will go back and watch clips of him now - he's distributing the ball to Kareem for the skyhook, to Worthy for wide open dunks, to Scott for 3 pointers - great passer, great court vision, nice leader - but overall, meh. Put Austin Rivers in that situation and he'd look great. Not Magic great, Magic was a legitimate great one, but still......meh.

Bird wowed me. MJ obviously wowed me. Even Isiah Thomas, who no one ranks with these others, wowed me. Magic.....................meh.

magic never "wowed" you like those players? maybe if you stopped sucking boston ****, you would learn to appreciate the greatest offensive player ever?

:confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

Early days could be rookie season. Means nothing. They were a good fit. Also i read up on the Rockets. They were actually 4 players taking crack. Worse then i thought. Hakeem didn't know wat was going on

http://grantland.com/features/an-oral-history-hakeem-olajuwon-ralph-sampson-1980s-houston-rockets/

you said the later 80s. now its the just "the early days of being a rookie".

he also faked an injury, was suspended for it, and going to be traded - its all too much to ignore.

fact is, hakeem was a stat-padding black hole until rudy tomtanovich came along - just as bill fitch, his coach said.

[game3524]

Robert Horry played with Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem and said Hakeem was the best one of the 3. I'll take his word for it.

Are Barkley and Robinson better than those guys? LOL!

In the early 90s? Yes, those two guys were better.

Chuck was putting up 27-28 ppg on 65 TS% and Robinson lead one of the greatest turn arounds in NBA history.

Seriously, your post reeks of someone who actually didn't research or watched games around that time period.

[jongib369]

Normally I go with bigs over any other position, but in this instance I go with Magic. His size advantage over other guards makes him a valuable weapon, despite the fact he'd have trouble keeping on guys like Westbrook. Just like in his day, they'd put someone else on the smaller guard. The idea of having two guys capable of being the playmaker on the team, with that kind of passing ability is extremely valuable. But, weather or not it would pan out depends on the team you build around him....I wouldn't blame anyone for picking Hakeem over Magic. Nor do I think the Rockets necessarily made a mistake drafting him over Jordan.

[IMObjective]

One last note on Magic before I bail on this powderkeg thread: Magic never really "wowed" me the way superstars do. I will go back and watch clips of him now - he's distributing the ball to Kareem for the skyhook, to Worthy for wide open dunks, to Scott for 3 pointers - great passer, great court vision, nice leader - but overall, meh. Put Austin Rivers in that situation and he'd look great. Not Magic great, Magic was a legitimate great one, but still......meh.

Bird wowed me. MJ obviously wowed me. Even Isiah Thomas, who no one ranks with these others, wowed me. Magic.....................meh.
Dude, his nickname was "magic"

[JohnnySic]

In the early 90s? Yes, those two guys were better.

Chuck was putting up 27-28 ppg on 65 TS% and Robinson lead one of the greatest turn arounds in NBA history.

Seriously, your post reeks of someone who actually didn't research or watched games around that time period.
Yes, I did, and Hakeem was very much overlooked and an afterthought at that time. Not because he wasn't great; because his team was crap.

Paul Pierce is a recent comparison. Was great for years and years and no one noticed; then he finally got some help and people thought he just "became good" in 2008. LOL.

[MiseryCityTexas]

It's players from the 60s thats shitloads better than players playing today, but people are gonna say that I'm dumb for stating facts. A player like Jim Mcmillan, Walt Hazzard, or a Happy Hairston would dominate today's league.

[MiseryCityTexas]

I'll say Magic and Karemm are a tie though.

[game3524]

Yes, I did, and Hakeem was very much overlooked and an afterthought at that time. Not because he wasn't great; because his team was crap.

Paul Pierce is a recent comparison. Was great for years and years and no one noticed; then he finally got some help and people thought he just "became good" in 2008. LOL.

He was an afterthought, because he wasn't on the same level as those guys.

Hakeem was a late bloomer and really didn't become a 1st tier star till 1993 when he was 30 years old. Prior to that he was never considered on the level of Jordan, Magic, Chuck, Robinson, and even Malone.

And your Pierce point makes little sense. No one opinion of him changed when his team became good in 2008. He was thought as a 2nd tier star in 2002, and was thought of the same in 2008.

[Fire Colangelo]

Yes, I did, and Hakeem was very much overlooked and an afterthought at that time. Not because he wasn't great; because his team was crap.

Paul Pierce is a recent comparison. Was great for years and years and no one noticed; then he finally got some help and people thought he just "became good" in 2008. LOL.

We gonna forget about the fact that he led his team to something like 9 1st round exits and 1 missed playoffs in his prime?

Is there anybody in the top 20 that has such a shitty playoff record?

We gonna forget that he consistently threw his teammates under the bus and was considered a head case for a chunk of his career?

We gonna forget that he was an asshole and faked injuries and whined to get traded due to a contract dispute?

I swear, things like this just gets sholved under the rag nowadays because there wasn't social media back then.

He was a great defender, but his offense is vastly overrated. We're talking about someone that's never led a top 5 offense despite his pretty moves. But some people think he had GOAT defense and GOAT offense, maybe in a 1v1 situation, but that shit doesn't translate into team success.

We gonna ignore the fact that guys like Drob was considered the better player for most of their careers?

I personally find Hakeem overrated as hell for someone that had 3 ATG years from 93-95. I don't think he was even in the conversation for best player in the league outside of those years.

Obviously he was great in 94, but his performance is overrated in 95. Most people forget that Clyde Drexler was on that team and led the team in win shares in the playoffs. Not to mention Hakeem didn't come close to "shutting down" Shaq, it was really the role players that took over for the Rockets.

Dude, seriously no body in their right minds would take Hakeem over Magic. 3 years of excellence vs a decade? Personally, I'd take someone like Dirk over Hakeem to start my team, less of a headache and far easier to build around.

Again, Hakeem is fine at where he belongs; borderline top 10. It's when people like you who obviously never watched/did any research on the dude who tend to overrate his career.

I have no problem taking Kobe/LeBron to start my team over Hakeem as well.

Also, nobody thought Pierce magically got better in 2008. He was a 2nd tier star in the early 2000's, and still a 2nd tier star in 2008. Nothing really changed except his team got better.

[juju151111]

you said the later 80s. now its the just "the early days of being a rookie".

he also faked an injury, was suspended for it, and going to be traded - its all too much to ignore.

fact is, hakeem was a stat-padding black hole until rudy tomtanovich came along - just as bill fitch, his coach said.
Huh? The quote u put up i was responding too. Statpadder led his team to the finals and beat top 3 atg team twice.

[JohnnySic]

We gonna forget about the fact that he led his team to something like 9 1st round exits and 1 missed playoffs in his prime?

Is there anybody in the top 20 that has such a shitty playoff record?

We gonna forget that he consistently threw his teammates under the bus and was considered a head case for a chunk of his career?

We gonna forget that he was an asshole and faked injuries and whined to get traded due to a contract dispute?

I swear, things like this just gets sholved under the rag nowadays because there wasn't social media back then.

He was a great defender, but his offense is vastly overrated. We're talking about someone that's never led a top 5 offense despite his pretty moves. But some people think he had GOAT defense and GOAT offense, maybe in a 1v1 situation, but that shit doesn't translate into team success.

We gonna ignore the fact that guys like Drob was considered the better player for most of their careers?

I personally find Hakeem overrated as hell for someone that had 3 ATG years from 93-95. I don't think he was even in the conversation for best player in the league outside of those years.

Obviously he was great in 94, but his performance is overrated in 95. Most people forget that Clyde Drexler was on that team and led the team in win shares in the playoffs. Not to mention Hakeem didn't come close to "shutting down" Shaq, it was really the role players that took over for the Rockets.

Dude, seriously no body in their right minds would take Hakeem over Magic. 3 years of excellence vs a decade? Personally, I'd take someone like Dirk over Hakeem to start my team, less of a headache and far easier to build around.

Again, Hakeem is fine at where he belongs; borderline top 10. It's when people like you who obviously never watched/did any research on the dude who tend to overrate his career.

I have no problem taking Kobe/LeBron to start my team over Hakeem as well.

Also, nobody thought Pierce magically got better in 2008. He was a 2nd tier star in the early 2000's, and still a 2nd tier star in 2008. Nothing really changed except his team got better.
Agree to disagree. I've been watching since the early 80's, I was there for just about all of Magic/Hakeem. Hakeem is easily one of the 5 best players I've seen in my life (with MJ, Bird, prime Shaq, and Duncan I guess).

And many, MANY people said that Pierce suddenly became "good" and a "winner" in 2008 (even though he was technically better in previous seasons). :oldlol: There was plenty of that on this very board. I was here for that too. :roll:

[Pointguard]

He was an afterthought, because he wasn't on the same level as those guys.

Hakeem was a late bloomer and really didn't become a 1st tier star till 1993 when he was 30 years old. Prior to that he was never considered on the level of Jordan, Magic, Chuck, Robinson, and even Malone.

And your Pierce point makes little sense. No one opinion of him changed when his team became good in 2008. He was thought as a 2nd tier star in 2002, and was thought of the same in 2008.
Hammer don't hurt em.

You, Meyha24 and Colangelo all clear headed and firing away.

[juju151111]

He was an afterthought, because he wasn't on the same level as those guys.

Hakeem was a late bloomer and really didn't become a 1st tier star till 1993 when he was 30 years old. Prior to that he was never considered on the level of Jordan, Magic, Chuck, Robinson, and even Malone.

And your Pierce point makes little sense. No one opinion of him changed when his team became good in 2008. He was thought as a 2nd tier star in 2002, and was thought of the same in 2008.
So he wasn't a first tier star when he led his team to the finals.

[mehyaM24]

Huh? The quote u put up i was responding too. Statpadder led his team to the finals and beat top 3 atg team twice.

like i pointed out earlier, the blackhole also had tons of help in 86. all-star sampson was one of the best defensive bigs & 3 other players averaged ~15ppg in the postseason.

you also claimed earlier the quote i provided was describing hakeem in the late 80s, then backtracked and said it was pertaining to his rookie season.

the actual quote ended with rudy tomtanovich, and him changing hakeem's play style in the 90s (a handful of 1st round exits prior is nothing to be proud of).

[mehyaM24]

We gonna forget about the fact that he led his team to something like 9 1st round exits and 1 missed playoffs in his prime?

Is there anybody in the top 20 that has such a shitty playoff record?

We gonna forget that he consistently threw his teammates under the bus and was considered a head case for a chunk of his career?

We gonna forget that he was an asshole and faked injuries and whined to get traded due to a contract dispute?

I swear, things like this just gets sholved under the rag nowadays because there wasn't social media back then.

He was a great defender, but his offense is vastly overrated. We're talking about someone that's never led a top 5 offense despite his pretty moves. But some people think he had GOAT defense and GOAT offense, maybe in a 1v1 situation, but that shit doesn't translate into team success.

We gonna ignore the fact that guys like Drob was considered the better player for most of their careers?

I personally find Hakeem overrated as hell for someone that had 3 ATG years from 93-95. I don't think he was even in the conversation for best player in the league outside of those years.

Obviously he was great in 94, but his performance is overrated in 95. Most people forget that Clyde Drexler was on that team and led the team in win shares in the playoffs. Not to mention Hakeem didn't come close to "shutting down" Shaq, it was really the role players that took over for the Rockets.

Dude, seriously no body in their right minds would take Hakeem over Magic. 3 years of excellence vs a decade? Personally, I'd take someone like Dirk over Hakeem to start my team, less of a headache and far easier to build around.

Again, Hakeem is fine at where he belongs; borderline top 10. It's when people like you who obviously never watched/did any research on the dude who tend to overrate his career.

I have no problem taking Kobe/LeBron to start my team over Hakeem as well.

Also, nobody thought Pierce magically got better in 2008. He was a 2nd tier star in the early 2000's, and still a 2nd tier star in 2008. Nothing really changed except his team got better.

wish there were rep still. super post bud

when people attempt to compare the 2 (there actually isn't a comparison), this should be a mandatory read :cheers:

[Fire Colangelo]

Agree to disagree. I've been watching since the early 80's, I was there for just about all of Magic/Hakeem. Hakeem is easily one of the 5 best players I've seen in my life (with MJ, Bird, prime Shaq, and Duncan I guess).

What makes Hakeem better than Magic?

Hakeem is worlds better on defense while Magic is worlds better on offense.

What makes Hakeem better than Kobe or LeBron?

Surely not the 1st round exits and missed playoffs :oldlol: even if we don't count his later years, that's 5 1st round exits in his prime including 4 in a row.



And many, MANY people said that Pierce suddenly became "good" and a "winner" in 2008 (even though he was technically better in previous seasons). :oldlol: There was plenty of that on this very board. I was here for that too. :roll:

He wasn't even the best player on his team. I don't really care what goes on this message board, because this board represents a very small percentage of basketball fans around the world.

[game3524]

So he wasn't a first tier star when he led his team to the finals.

No, he wasn't.

[90sgoat]

No, he wasn't.

People are forgetting how good Barkley and Robinson were. These guys were in discussion for league's best player in 1991, a time period when Jordan was at his peak.

Barkley was consensus second best player in the world from around 1988 to 1993.

[90sgoat]

At the moment it would probably look something like...

1. MJ
2. Kareem (One of the most disrespected NBA legends, gets ignored alot)
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird (Bird was better than Magic peak wise, Magic had a better career)
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq (Top 3 ever in terms of peak play)
10. LeBron (Has had a more complete career than Hakeem, pretty obvious)

Can't put Kobe over Shaq, can't put Lebron in top 10 with such shitty play and colluding.

Otherwise good list.

[Fire Colangelo]

Magic Johnson is generally ranked higher than Hakeem Ojajuwon on all-time greatest lists but Hakeem was a better player. Worlds better on defense and quite frankly better on offense except for passing.

The only players who should rank ahead of Hakeem all time are Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and (maybe, I have to think long and hard about it) Bird.

Players like Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and LeBron should not outrank Hakeem because they had (except LeBron) more team success. Maybe Shaq due to his sheer dominance but if I had to pick I'd rank Hakeem higher.



I'm guessing you're also one of those guys that thinks KG is in the same world as Dirk offensively because he has better scoring numbers and better assist numbers?

Do you realize how important pace is in basketball? Magic is someone that controlled the pace so perfectly that he'd be able to lead any team to the best offense in the league. And you're severely underestimating Magic's scoring ability, dude put up 44/15/7 or some shit like that as a rookie in a finals game playing a position he's never played in a pro game before (that's better than any of Hakeem's final performances btw).

Magic had such a size advantage in his position that he was able to create SO MANY mismatches on the perimeter, something Hakeem could never do, and that shit doesn't show up in the box score. Yeah, Hakeem has better scoring numbers and prettier post moves, but he was a blackhole on offense for most of his career. They are literally two worlds apart. Comparing Hakeem and Magic offensively is like comparing Al Jefferson to Steve Nash (obviously not that extreme but you get the picture).

Oh, and Bird absolutely shits on Hakeem. This is an argument for another day, but he single handedly took a team of 20-30 wins Celtics team to 60 wins. A number Hakeem never saw in his life. Along with more rings and MVPs.

Imagine if Bird only managed to win rings when Magic retired or vice versa :oldlol: :oldlol: only Hakeem would get a pass for shit like this.

Again, I rank Hakeem just around #10, which is where he belongs. It's when people like you decide to put him on the same level offensively as Magic Johnson of all people that, he gets overrated for the 3 years of peak play that literally every player in the top 10 absolutely shits on.

[mehyaM24]

this boston homer deserves a swift ban

"other than passing how is magic better than hakeem?"

really? other than jordan's scoring, what does he have on pippen? not passing, not rebounding and certainly not defense.

****ing clown :oldlol:

[Fire Colangelo]

this boston homer deserves a swift ban

"other than passing how is magic better than hakeem?"

really? other than jordan's scoring, what does he have on pippen? not passing, not rebounding and certainly not defense.

****ing clown :oldlol:

Honestly, that was unexpected for someone that's been around for such a long time.

If he really started watching ball in the 80s and this is his opinion of the game.... then I really have nothing to say lol.

[JohnnySic]

this boston homer deserves a swift ban

"other than passing how is magic better than hakeem?"

really? other than jordan's scoring, what does he have on pippen? not passing, not rebounding and certainly not defense.

****ing clown :oldlol:
Really, what's the issue? :confusedshrug:

Magic = passing >

Hakeem = rebounding, post scoring, blocked shots, anchoring defense >

Hakeem = Duncan with a real center's body, better athleticism (by a lot), better offense and better defense. The man was the real thing, and no, not just for 3 seasons.

[game3524]

Barkley was consensus second best player in the world from around 1988 to 1993.

Either him or Magic, but the fact remains in he was in the discussion while Hakeem wasn't.

[game3524]

I'm guessing you're also one of those guys that thinks KG is in the same world as Dirk offensively because he has better scoring numbers and better assist numbers?

Do you realize how important pace is in basketball? Magic is someone that controlled the pace so perfectly that he'd be able to lead any team to the best offense in the league. And you're severely underestimating Magic's scoring ability, dude put up 44/15/7 or some shit like that as a rookie in a finals game playing a position he's never played in a pro game before (that's better than any of Hakeem's final performances btw).

Magic had such a size advantage in his position that he was able to create SO MANY mismatches on the perimeter, something Hakeem could never do, and that shit doesn't show up in the box score. Yeah, Hakeem has better scoring numbers and prettier post moves, but he was a blackhole on offense for most of his career. They are literally two worlds apart. Comparing Hakeem and Magic offensively is like comparing Al Jefferson to Steve Nash (obviously not that extreme but you get the picture).

Oh, and Bird absolutely shits on Hakeem. This is an argument for another day, but he single handedly took a team of 20-30 wins Celtics team to 60 wins. A number Hakeem never saw in his life. Along with more rings and MVPs.

Imagine if Bird only managed to win rings when Magic retired or vice versa :oldlol: :oldlol: only Hakeem would get a pass for shit like this.

Again, I rank Hakeem just around #10, which is where he belongs. It's when people like you decide to put him on the same level offensively as Magic Johnson of all people that, he gets overrated for the 3 years of peak play that literally every player in the top 10 absolutely shits on.

Seriously, just go watch the series against Portland in 1991. That series will tell you how important pace is in basketball.

[Pointguard]

like i pointed out earlier, the blackhole also had tons of help in 86. all-star sampson was one of the best defensive bigs & 3 other players averaged ~15ppg in the postseason.

you also claimed earlier the quote i provided was describing hakeem in the late 80s, then backtracked and said it was pertaining to his rookie season.

the actual quote ended with rudy tomtanovich, and him changing hakeem's play style in the 90s (a handful of 1st round exits prior is nothing to be proud of).
I forgot about Sampson, saying if he had Magic he would have been an all time great. That alone definitely puts Magic a tier above Hakeem.

[mehyaM24]

Really, what's the issue? :confusedshrug:

Magic = passing >

Hakeem = rebounding, post scoring, blocked shots, anchoring defense >

Hakeem = Duncan with a real center's body, better athleticism (by a lot), better offense and better defense. The man was the real thing, and no, not just for 3 seasons.

so by your logic,

pippen > jordan

no way around it unfortunately :confusedshrug:


Honestly, that was unexpected for someone that's been around for such a long time.

If he really started watching ball in the 80s and this is his opinion of the game.... then I really have nothing to say lol.

probably an old "boston >>> la" gimmick gone too far. so magic never "wowed" him. ok and? are we supposed to care? :oldlol:

[JohnnySic]

so by your logic,

pippen > jordan

no way around it unfortunately :confusedshrug:



probably an old "boston >>> la" gimmick gone too far. so magic never "wowed" him. ok and? are we supposed to care? :oldlol:
Nice try, but no.

Jordan did almost everything better than Pippen. Even defense is arguable. Pippen was a better rebounder by a little and that's really it.

Hakeem did just about everything except passing better than Magic, as I've explained ad nauseam.

[mehyaM24]

I forgot about Sampson, saying if he had Magic he would have been an all time great. That alone definitely puts Magic a tier above Hakeem.

yep

sampson was a beast. multiple time all-star, a few years where he was top 5 in blocks, top 5 in rebounds, and top 5 in defensive winshares (i dont like winshares, but thats the best 'advanced' metric we have to date on the end).

ralph & hakeem made up the original twin towers - and that's me being respectful, as i know hakeem was a great player and ATG. on the level of magic? not quite, but then again there are only 3 maybe 4 players in history that are.

[mehyaM24]

Nice try, but no.

Jordan did almost everything better than Pippen. Even defense is arguable. Pippen was a better rebounder by a little and that's really it.

Hakeem did just about everything except passing better than Magic, as I've explained ad nauseam.

wrong.

pippen facilitated the offense, was a better defender as per adnvaced metrics available, and a better rebounder to boot.

you must feel really dumb right now lol

[JimmyMcAdocious]

How can you compare ability between two different positions? Point guard and center, much less.

Kidd > Shaq.

Better at every imaginable basketball skill other than post game and blocking shots.

[JohnnySic]

wrong.

pippen facilitated the offense, was a better defender as per adnvaced metrics available, and a better rebounder to boot.

you must feel really dumb right now lol
I'm not gonna bother after reading this. :facepalm

[bizil]

In my opinion the two most valuable type of NBA players historically are:

- Centers who can dominate the paint on both ends of the court

- Versatile 6'5 to 6'9 perimeter players who can play a minimum of three positions. And are ALSO regarded as great all around players with alpha dog level scoring ability.

So Magic and Dream fit this criteria in one way or another. GOAT wise, it's EASILY Magic! Dream has NO CASE! But peak value wise, I actually don't think it's a huge gap at all. But for me, I would still take Magic due to his versatility, making his teammates better, and matchup problems he can create.

[game3524]

I'm not gonna bother after reading this. :facepalm

He is right.

Pippen was the team leader in assist on all the Bulls championships team

[PsychoBe]

ish is at it again :facepalm

mods???

[mehyaM24]

He is right.

Pippen was the team leader in assist on all the Bulls championships team

op is a chump

its obvious he never watched these guys play, and hasn't bothered to research anything in the slightest - the prototypical casual at a sports bar. :oldlol:

[PsychoBe]

magic had a better finals performance than hakeem ever did his rookie year :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[juju151111]

No, he wasn't.
:roll: clown sit your dumbass down

[KevinNYC]

And yet this "apparently" immature player led a team to the Finals in his 2nd year and beat the Magic led Laker's in the process.
He also took two games off the legendary 86 Celtic's.

"He" beat the Lakers? Not the 7'4" guy who hit the crazy back-to-the-basket-tip-in with one second on the clock? In a game 5 where Hakeen spent the last four minutes on the bench?

"He" took two games off the Celtics? Not the 7'4" guy who went for 24 points and 22 rebounds in Game 3? Seems like the 7'4" guy took 1 if that's the way you're thinking about it.

[game3524]

:roll: clown sit your dumbass down

Yeah, you got nothing.:oldlol:

[Jameerthefear]

is magic even really clearly better than Curry?

[JohnnySic]

op is a chump

its obvious he never watched these guys play, and hasn't bothered to research anything in the slightest - the prototypical casual at a sports bar. :oldlol:
I've been watching every year since '84. Watched more bball than any 10 random posters here combined.

My thing is, I like to think. I dont roll with the narrative. I think outside the box. And I trust my eyes, not a bunch of "advanced stats". Stats are for nerds and poindexters.

Hakeem is the best player I've personally witnessed outside of Jordan and peak Shaq. Mayyyybe Larry Bird, and I'm saying that as a Boston fan; Hakeem could be better.

Not Magic, Barkley, Robinson (lol, cant believe people would bring him up after Hakeem made him his dog :oldlol: ) Kobe, Duncan, LeBron or anyone else.

Enough already. I'm out.

[La Frescobaldi]

this thread will be repeated in a decade or so just with the names changed and that one will be the exact same revisionist stupidity as this one:

Dirk Nowitzki > LeBron James


unbelievable this op post didn't get cut by some ish-coach.

[KevinNYC]

Never seen a canserous blackhole take his team to the finals while upsetting the Lakers. Crackhead PG and Crackhead Pf/C Sampson
Um, that pointguard didn't play past March.

And Ralph Sampson was a crackhead? Evidence?

Hakeem was on the bench for the end of the Lakers series because he was thrown out of the game with 4 minutes left.

[game3524]

this thread will be repeated in a decade or so just with the names changed and that one will be the exact same revisionist stupidity as this one:

Dirk Nowitzki > LeBron James


unbelievable this op post didn't get cut by some ish-coach.

Lmao, don't get me started on the revisionist history some fools on here do with the German.

[juju151111]

Yeah, you got nothing.:oldlol:
I don't respond to you because your retarded and made no points.:applause:

[game3524]

I don't respond to you because your retarded and made no points.:applause:

Please, I have evidence.

Go read and watch games from the late 80s and early 90s. Outside of Jerry Krause, no one thought Hakeem was in same class as MJ, Magic, Barkley etc.

[juju151111]

Um, that pointguard didn't play past March.

And Ralph Sampson was a crackhead? Evidence?

Hakeem was on the bench for the end of the Lakers series because he was thrown out of the game with 4 minutes left.
My point they lost their PG and what does Hakeem being on the bench the last 4 mins mean.

[sportjames23]

is magic even really clearly better than Curry?


Shut up, little boy. Better yet, go play in traffic.

[La Frescobaldi]

Lmao, don't get me started on the revisionist history some fools on here do with the German.

exactly. this thread is purest trolling.

No trolling: peak Moses Malone > Olajuwon

[juju151111]

Please, I have evidence.

Go read and watch games from the late 80s and early 90s. Outside of Jerry Krause, no one thought Hakeem was in same class as MJ, Magic, Barkley etc.
Idc what everyone thought. Hakeem>>Barkley.

[juju151111]

exactly. this thread is purest trolling.

No trolling: peak Moses Malone > Olajuwon
Na but Mosses was great too. I find it funny about Kareem is that he got outplayed alot by other Atg bigs. Thomond,Wilt,Moses etc... What Atg Big outplayed Hakeem.

[La Frescobaldi]

Na but Mosses was great too. I find it funny about Kareem is that he got outplayed alot by other Atg bigs. Thomond,Wilt,Moses etc... What Atg Big outplayed Hakeem.

Moses Malone outplayed him on the regular.

Walton destroyed him.

Kareem outplayed him for years.

[game3524]

Idc what everyone thought. Hakeem>>Barkley.

Peak wise and career wise yes.

But in the late 80s to early 90s, Chuck was the man. Jordan was the only guy who was clearly better then him.

[juju151111]

Moses Malone outplayed him on the regular.

Walton destroyed him.

Kareem outplayed him for years.
No he didn't .
Walton never outplayed Hakeem
Kareem got destroyed in the playoffs.

[sportjames23]

Peak wise and career wise yes.

But in the late 80s to early 90s, Chuck was the man. Jordan was the only guy who was clearly better then him.


Sad how these young pups can't recognize how much a beast Chuck was back then.

[La Frescobaldi]

Sad how these young pups can't recognize how much a beast Chuck was back then.

were they even born when he retired though?

[KevinNYC]

My point they lost their PG and what does Hakeem being on the bench the last 4 mins mean.
It means he had a lot of damn help "leading" his team. Including a 7'4" mismatch playing right next to him who put 24 point-22 rebound game in the Finals. Who hit the series clinching shot at the buzzer while Hakeem was out of the game.

It means that if the Rockets beat the Lakers with Hakeem on the bench in the crucial moments of the final game, they must have had some other things going for them besides Hakeem.

You also accuse this 7'4" mismatch you accuse of being a crackhead with any damn evidence.

Yes, they lost their point guard, meaning the point guard wasn't the guy who helped them in the playoffs.

You seem to be confusing the drug problems of Mitchell and Lloyd with Sampson.

[PsychoBe]

it wasn't even a contest between hakeem and barkley. it was mj and barkley and then everyone else for years. malone hadn't fully emerged yet (bricked every free throw), hakeem couldn't get it done (internal disputes/first round exits), magic caught aids, bird had chronic back spasms, dominuque was a beast though, etc, etc.

[game3524]

Sad how these young pups can't recognize how much a beast Chuck was back then.

There is no excuse, there's a billion of old school games on youtube.

[LONGTIME]

Hakeem is the most overrated all-time great on this forum.

Magic was the better player, he is one of the few players(not even MJ can make this claim...) that you can put bums around him and still manage to win 50 games every year.

Put prime Magic on this years Sixer team and they win close to 60 games. :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

I've been watching every year since '84. Watched more bball than any 10 random posters here combined.

My thing is, I like to think. I dont roll with the narrative. I think outside the box. And I trust my eyes, not a bunch of "advanced stats". Stats are for nerds and poindexters.

Hakeem is the best player I've personally witnessed outside of Jordan and peak Shaq. Mayyyybe Larry Bird, and I'm saying that as a Boston fan; Hakeem could be better.

Not Magic, Barkley, Robinson (lol, cant believe people would bring him up after Hakeem made him his dog :oldlol: ) Kobe, Duncan, LeBron or anyone else.

Enough already. I'm out.

yea? well maybe you need to come back to the box for a bit, where only reality exists.

claim you've been watching since the lakers moved to los angeles - it still wouldn't make anything you've post here less amateurish. honestly, correcting your "uhhh outside of scoring, pippen > dirk" logic has been the only common theme in this thread.

i would call you incompetent, but that's an insult to useless people.

[Fire Colangelo]

I've been watching every year since '84. Watched more bball than any 10 random posters here combined.

My thing is, I like to think. I dont roll with the narrative. I think outside the box. And I trust my eyes, not a bunch of "advanced stats". Stats are for nerds and poindexters.

Hakeem is the best player I've personally witnessed outside of Jordan and peak Shaq. Mayyyybe Larry Bird, and I'm saying that as a Boston fan; Hakeem could be better.

Not Magic, Barkley, Robinson (lol, cant believe people would bring him up after Hakeem made him his dog :oldlol: ) Kobe, Duncan, LeBron or anyone else.

Enough already. I'm out.

In other words.... "I know I'm right even though all the evidence prove me wrong!!!!!11"

You don't even have a viable argument other than some stupid claim about Hakeem being a better offensive player than Magic. Let alone arguments over Shaq, Bird, etc.

Lol'd at calling others statnerds when you're the one that can't see past the stats. The fact that you think the only thing Magic is better at is passing shows that you have no idea of what's going on in the game aside from boxscore watching.

Every argument you've posted has been shut down and you've provided no additional arguments other than "I think".

And btw, Drob routinely schooled Hakeem in the regular season, which is why majority of people though Rob was a better player up until 1995 where Hakeem took his soul in that one series. But that's all it was, it was one series. Doesn't take away from the fact that DRob outperformed Hakeem in several regular seasons and led one of the biggest franchise turnarounds winning 50+ games in multiple seasons with a subpar supporting cast.

[juju151111]

It means he had a lot of damn help "leading" his team. Including a 7'4" mismatch playing right next to him who put 24 point-22 rebound game in the Finals. Who hit the series clinching shot at the buzzer while Hakeem was out of the game.

It means that if the Rockets beat the Lakers with Hakeem on the bench in the crucial moments of the final game, they must have had some other things going for them besides Hakeem.

You also accuse this 7'4" mismatch you accuse of being a crackhead with any damn evidence.

Yes, they lost their point guard, meaning the point guard wasn't the guy who helped them in the playoffs.

You seem to be confusing the drug problems of Mitchell and Lloyd with Sampson.
What are you talking about? Your talking about 86. Im talking about the following years. I said he led them in 86. I never said his team wasn't decent in 86. Hakeem was the best player on the team in 86 so i don't know what your going on about.

[72-10]

He is right.

Pippen was the team leader in assist on all the Bulls championships team

No he was not

[Amare4lyfe]

No, he wasn't.

People are forgetting how good Barkley and Robinson were. These guys were in discussion for league's best player in 1991, a time period when Jordan was at his peak.


Who the hell is this clown? Another 7 year old kid who gets his knowledge by watching youtube. Stop talking out of your butt. :lol

[Euroleague]

I will say this, peak Hakeem was the most unbelievable player I have ever seen, from an individual standpoint.

[feyki]

I will say this, peak Hakeem was the most unbelievable player I have ever seen, from an individual standpoint.

Totally true .

Probably , He was most versatile player in NBA History .

[Asukal]

I will say this, peak Hakeem was the most unbelievable player I have ever seen, from an individual standpoint.

Africa is not Europe brah. :rolleyes:

[game3524]

Who the hell is this clown? Another 7 year old kid who gets his knowledge by watching youtube. Stop talking out of your butt. :lol

Who are you?

[feyki]

Who are you?

96 Years old monk from Nepal , Who had hobbies with NBA .

[3ball]

Magic Johnson is generally ranked higher than Hakeem Ojajuwon on all-time greatest lists but Hakeem was a better player.


Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:


JORDAN: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg
MAGIC:.. 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg


Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP this badly in the Finals?

MJ's domination is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

[Euroleague]

Africa is not Europe brah. :rolleyes:

http://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/The-World-According-To-Americans-5.jpg

http://sobadsogood.com/uploads/media/2014/03/09/A-Funny-Look-At-The-World-According-To-Everyday-Americans-2.jpg

Keep playing on daddy's computer...

https://media3.giphy.com/media/wCMms3sRD9Idy/200.gif

[masonanddixon]

Hakeem is insanely well regarded on this board for a dood who lost 9 teams in the first round,

[Asukal]

http://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/The-World-According-To-Americans-5.jpg

http://sobadsogood.com/uploads/media/2014/03/09/A-Funny-Look-At-The-World-According-To-Everyday-Americans-2.jpg

Keep playing on daddy's computer...

https://media3.giphy.com/media/wCMms3sRD9Idy/200.gif

You mad breh? :yaohappy:

[aquaadverse]

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:


JORDAN: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg
MAGIC:.. 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg


Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP this badly in the Finals?

MJ's domination is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

This thread isn't about Jordan. Your obsession is truly disturbing.