Is Jordan really the unanimous GOAT?

[IllegalD]

Is Jordan really the unanimous GOAT?

Or is it just a matter of the media, the NBA, Nike, etc hyping this mythical Paul Bunyan-esque mythology?

Consider the following:

1) Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen emerged

2) Half of Jordan's championships came in a weak expansion era where the Bulls feasted on weak expansion teams.

3) Jordan had no true adversary/legendary opponent like Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers had in each other during the 80s, or Kobe's Lakers and Duncan's Spurs in the 2000s

4) He needed a super-stacked team of multiple HOFs during his 2nd threepeat

5) He TWICE walked away from a 4-peat attempt and a championship team. Most likely because he knew the odds were against him pulling it off and he knew the fanatical stans/media would still prop him up saying dumb sh*t like "he would've won 9 in a row easily had he not retired twice" (can't see Kobe walking away from potential 4peats and a championship team)

6) He played in an era with less athletic/weaker defensive wings and (relatively) primitive defensive tactics

7) He never scored more than 69 points in a game (and needed overtime to do it)

8) His acting in Space Jam was sh*t

[Asukal]

There was no one better before or after the G.O.A.T. :bowdown:

[StephHamann]

No, Larry Bird is the GOAT

[Dr Hawk]

The only player with a case over Jordan is KAJ, but nah. Jordan is the GOAT

[Micku]

http://23mjordan.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/6/4/13644425/1347558322.jpg

If that doesn't say GOAT, then it's definitely up there with the top tiers of b-ball players.

Oh. And he average 30.1 in his career (the best in NBA history), top 3 in steals of all time, top 4 in points of all time, and he played with the team that still hold the title of the best team record of the NBA history. He saved the Earth in Space Jam (a true story).

What more do you want?

Play against your favorite team in the present?

[Random_Guy]

Yes, yes he is.

[SpaceJam]

Space Jam is the f^cking GOAT

Take that back

[Nuff Said]

The only player with a case over Jordan is KAJ, but nah. Jordan is the GOAT
I think Bill Russel has the best case over Jordan. He could very well have more fmvp (an award that's even named after him) which, let's be real, is the only thing holding him back from number 1.

[Andrei89]

GOAT is GOAT

[Naero]

1) Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen emerged

I think you misworded "emerged" here. That record precedes when Pippen joined the NBA; it doesn't mean he was remotely ripe when Jordan started to compile playoffs wins.

Prior to Pippen's advent, all three of Jordan's match-ups were against the Boston Celtics; that same team was the Eastern Conference finalist in all three years, as they won two championships in those years as well. Had Jordan been matched-up against less lofty teams with his playoffs match-ups in previous years, any betting man would be wise to wage that the rife "1-9" detraction would be non-existent.

"But Pippen obviously deserves credit for the better playoffs-seeding due to more regular-season wins."

The same rookie Pippen who didn't start in the 1987-88 season and was a non-factor in three of the four playoffs wins that year?

All they needed was a positive-impact bench role-player on Jordan's previous teams, which Pippen effectively was. Obviously, they were better off with the later-blossoming Pippen in the long haul; but short term, he was nothing more than a placeholder once Jordan's Bulls truly started to win.

Think this is conjecture? Look at the following stat: 22 of the Bulls' losses in the year prior to Pippen had a 5-point differential or less

[Straight_Ballin]

All said and done it all points to Jordan being GOAT and fans who saw him play live are the GOAT fans of the sport, period.

[Psileas]

Is Jordan really the unanimous GOAT?

No.
End thread. It doesn't need any lists/arguments.

[beastee]

Unanimous /thread.

[DoctorP]

yeah, really. /thread

[dubeta]

That 1-9 record stops him from being compared to true GOAT candidates like KAJ, however, he's still better than Kobe all time

[dunksby]

No.
End thread. It doesn't need any lists/arguments.
This, here is a definition for the word:
formed with or indicating unanimity : having the agreement and consent of all

[livinglegend]

No, he's not.
He had the GOAT marketing team.

[ClipperRevival]

No, he's not.
He had the GOAT marketing team.

:oldlol: It makes me laugh when people say stuff like this. As if his career was some mirage and the media or whoever had some agenda to make him look greater than he actually was. It's all on film buddy. It's not like MJ played way back in the days. MJ entered the league in 1985 and retired permanently in 2003. He faced Moncrief to Cooper to Drexler to Payton to Kidd to V. Carter to Kobe.

All I have to say about this is look at Curry now. Why is he getting such accolades? Is there some agenda behind it or is he just putting it down and actually deserving of all this attention and accolades? You already know the answer. MJ did what Curry is doing this season for his entire career. Yes, he was that real. Yes, he was that good. Yes, he's the GOAT.

[ClipperRevival]

Objectively, the only person who has a case is KAJ when you look at his entire body of work.

Russell simply can't be on that list because he only dominated on one end of the court. He is the greatest "winner" but to be the GOAT, you need an all-around, dominant game.

It comes down to MJ or KAJ. If someone prefers KAJ, I have no issues given KAJ was probably the GOAT college player ever and you add in his 6 rings, 6 mvps and all the personal accolades along with the longevity.

[livinglegend]

Objectively, the only person who has a case is KAJ when you look at his entire body of work.

Russell simply can't be on that list because he only dominated on one end of the court. He is the greatest "winner" but to be the GOAT, you need an all-around, dominant game.

It comes down to MJ or KAJ. If someone prefers KAJ, I have no issues given KAJ was probably the GOAT college player ever and you add in his 6 rings, 6 mvps and all the personal accolades along with the longevity.

That's your opinion and your criteria for goat.
For some, winning as the leader of the team is everything.

[DoctorP]

No, he's not.
He had the GOAT marketing team.

We are not talking about Harden

[ClipperRevival]

Is Jordan really the unanimous GOAT?

Or is it just a matter of the media, the NBA, Nike, etc hyping this mythical Paul Bunyan-esque mythology?

Consider the following:

1) Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen emerged

2) Half of Jordan's championships came in a weak expansion era where the Bulls feasted on weak expansion teams.

3) Jordan had no true adversary/legendary opponent like Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers had in each other during the 80s, or Kobe's Lakers and Duncan's Spurs in the 2000s

4) He needed a super-stacked team of multiple HOFs during his 2nd threepeat

5) He TWICE walked away from a 4-peat attempt and a championship team. Most likely because he knew the odds were against him pulling it off and he knew the fanatical stans/media would still prop him up saying dumb sh*t like "he would've won 9 in a row easily had he not retired twice" (can't see Kobe walking away from potential 4peats and a championship team)

6) He played in an era with less athletic/weaker defensive wings and (relatively) primitive defensive tactics

7) He never scored more than 69 points in a game (and needed overtime to do it)

8) His acting in Space Jam was sh*t

1) That tends to happen when you face GOAT teams like the 80's Celtics and 80's Pistons while you are a one man team with no help. But it's MJ so he can't be given that out huh?

2) Yet, there were still great teams that MJ had to beat. The 1996 Sonics were stacked and the 1997 and 1998 Jazz were the Spurs of their day. Disciplined, great D and played the right way.

3) MJ had no true adversary because he beat them all. He took down Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Kemp/Payton and Malone/Stockton. History would view MJ differently if he had lost a couple of those. But he didn't.

4) Super stacked? That's pushing it. Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc were the core of the 2nd 3 peat team. That's a very good supporting cast and that's why that team won 72 games.

5) He has the choice to walk away whenever he wants. 6/6 is 6/6.

6) Please. By the time MJ entered the league, the talent pool was incredibly deep and was littered with athletic players.

7) So what? He has the highest scoring average in history for both regular season and playoffs. Kobe might've peaked a tad higher on a given night but he kills Kobe in career 30 and 40 point games. He was much more consistent with his scoring on a nightly basis. Not the boom or bust type game of Kobe.

[AirFederer]

No.

This week it's Hakeem in here.

:facepalm

[dubeta]

No, he's not.
He had the GOAT marketing team.


:lol :bowdown:

[LAKingKobe]

He's pretty overrated.
And as a person he's been known to be a selfish ignoramus.
Kobe and bron will be better than him.

[LAKingKobe]

All of Kobes and brons finals opponents were better than the Jazz and sonics except the Nets and the 6ers.

[SouBeachTalents]

All of Kobes and brons finals opponents were better than the Jazz and sonics except the Nets and the 6ers.

Bro you're a ****ing retard

[ShawkFactory]

Not unanimous. Consensus though.

[Dr Hawk]

He's pretty overrated.
And as a person he's been known to be a selfish ignoramus.
Kobe and bron will be better than him.

Nope

[Naero]

He's pretty overrated.
And as a person he's been known to be a selfish ignoramus.
Kobe and bron will be better than him.

One of the OP's alts - now identified. I knew with the career-high 69-point "jab," you were alluding to Kobe and his "superior" 81-point game.

This isn't 2006, by the way; Kobe's career is effectively over, and it's become more obvious than ever since that he's not remotely close to Michael Jordan. LeBron still has 2-3 prime years left, but he's not on pace to ever match Jordan - let alone eclipse him.

To suggest that either player is anywhere close to Jordan is misrepresenting the GOAT's greatness, but there is no other way for him to be compared to them.

[DonDadda59]

No, he's not.
He had the GOAT marketing team.

You mean Nike, the same marketing team as the likes of Kobe and LeBron? :roll:

Bron Bron got a $100 million dollar deal from Nike and had commercials running calling him the 'Chosen One' and the Savior of the NBA before he even played a single game as a professional.

Jordan's first contract with Nike was worth $500K, and he only got that because his first choice Adidas turned him down.

Fast forward to now, the Jordan brand makes 8-9 times more in revenue per year than the LeBron brand.

That's not because of marketing, homie.

[feyki]

http://i.hizliresim.com/zlk5yB.jpg

[72-10]

KAZAAM

OP, your arguments contradict each other:lol

[72-10]

it's Earl Manigault

[72-10]

let's take a look at those records of their opponents again

96 Seattle, 64-18
97 Utah, 64-18
98 Utah, 62-20

btw they faced the 96 Magic in the Eastern Conference Finals who were 39-2 at home and swept them

[3ball]

Jordan won 6 rings without a dominant big man, in an era when dominant bigs were ideal, since the court wasn't spaced optimally for guards and the play was more physical.

[jayfan]

No, he's not.
He had the GOAT marketing team.

:facepalm







.

[feyki]

it's Earl Manigault
:rockon:

[3ball]

.
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals

[DMAVS41]

He's quite easily the best player I have ever seen.

I did not see peak Kareem or anyone before the mid 70's, but he's, without a doubt, the best player I have ever seen.

I think it's possible for someone to have a better career than him in the future, but someone surpassing him just on level of play and dominance is going to be extremely hard to do

[MP.Trey]

Not unanimous, but definitely consensus.

[72-10]

in the first half of the 80s who did Kareem have to compete against at center? i mean honestly

[feyki]

He's quite easily the best player I have ever seen.

I did not see peak Kareem or anyone before the mid 70's, but he's, without a doubt, the best player I have ever seen.

I think it's possible for someone to have a better career than him in the future, but someone surpassing him just on level of play and dominance is going to be extremely hard to do

You could watch them.

[3ball]

.
Scoring Champs who were 1st Team All-Defense:


JORDAN: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
BRYANT: 2006, 2007
WEST:.. 1970


These seasons must be ranked in the top tier of best individual seasons ever because of their recognized, "best-in-the-league", two-way performance.

The only player that was ever scoring champ and DPOY in same season was MJ in 1988.. AND he was mvp that season... Here's Greg Popovich saying that MJ is the standard for 2-way ability:


"He (Kawhi) has the ability to do what a Michael Jordan did at both ends, and I don’t mean he’s Michael Jordan,” Popovich said. “But you think about the best players in the league, they’re not two-way players. He wants to do that.”

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/spurs/2015/11/11/kawhi-leonard-gregg-popovich-spurs-charles-barkley-michael-jordan/75612616/

[DMAVS41]

You could watch them.

I mean live...of course we can all watch old clips and old games, but I think you miss something in those.

I also think we miss things just watching on tv and not going to games as well.

I just don't like to talk about how good certain players were that I really never saw play a lot.


I just am not going to get into a discussion about Elgin vs Kobe or something. I just didn't see enough of Baylor to really have a good grasp on how good he was and how I think his game would translate to today...etc.

[3ball]

.
Jordan's GOAT Efficiency


Jordan DID MORE at the same efficiency as his peers - he had much higher shot volume while maintaining the same efficiency.

If Kobe, Curry or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume.


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:.... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 0.9 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 9.1 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 0.2 blk.. 34.8 fga.. 115 ORtg.. 59.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts


If you look at the #2 and #6 guys are between 32-36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is a 43.3, which is all alone and far above the rest of the pack.

[sd3035]

Ordan was the product of a weak era, coupled with ref help

Ordan would be a poor man's DeRozan today

[3ball]

Ordan was the product of a weak era, coupled with ref help

Ordan would be a poor man's DeRozan today



Jordan's jumpshot was better than Curry's from inside 20 feet:



.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/)

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 57.1%, 28 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 45.0%, 20 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 43.2%, 44 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016: 43.8%, 73 fga


MJ was the far better shooter inside 20 feet... Anyone that disagrees must explain why Curry shoots FAR worse percentage inside 20 feet..
.

[feyki]

I mean live...of course we can all watch old clips and old games, but I think you miss something in those.

I also think we miss things just watching on tv and not going to games as well.

I just don't like to talk about how good certain players were that I really never saw play a lot.


I just am not going to get into a discussion about Elgin vs Kobe or something. I just didn't see enough of Baylor to really have a good grasp on how good he was and how I think his game would translate to today...etc.

I see.

I believe that basketball is a team sport and players part of the that . Eras are give shape to players . I saw 3 different basketball era . Before 2005 was looking more tougher and focused on slow pace and big players . 2006-2012 was more freedom on offences and shorter players . After 2014 is looks like euroleague format with the 80's pace .

Game evolve everytime . Actually that is metamorphosis , not evolve .

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I think that most people consider him the GOAT but it's not unanimous. Disregarding the trolls who argue for Kobe, LeBron, or other players of that ilk, you'll find people arguing for Kareem, Wilt, and Russell.

[3ball]

.
...............................................Spa cing


In the picture below, weakside floor-spreaders (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Noah doesn't leave #20 Mosgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders on it.


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



Otoh, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders - there are already defenders standing where today's defender would flood to:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/RHtH1z.gif


Defenders are either faced with making extra rotations due to spacing (today's game), or having less rotations due to no spacing (previous eras).

Defensive rotations offset today's spacing, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

[sd3035]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/RHtH1z.gif





nobody guarding the perimeter, Curry would average 50 in that lazy defense era. No wonder teams averaged so many ppg

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/LmyGlA.gif


No wonder teams averaged so many ppg



Teams averaged LESS ppg in the 90's genius.

In the 80's, teams averaged more PPG because they didn't have to slow the game down to run offense so they can get good 3-point looks...

2-pointers don't have to be as open - a higher level of contest has always been acceptable on 2-pointers.. Teams didn't have to run as much offense to get these lower-quality looks - they just ran up and down and took one contested 2-pointer after another.

Also, shots IN TRANSITION were highly-contested because defenders ran to the PAINT in transition, not the 3-point line (see gif above) - again, teams ran up and down the court taking one contested 2-pointer after another, whereas today's game is slower since it's designed to get good 3-point looks (boring af).

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/RHtH1z.gif


nobody guarding the perimeter, Curry would average 50 in that lazy defense era.



Curry wouldn't get shit inside - due to no spacing, there's already 5 defenders on the strongside with multiple defenders standing where today's defender would flood to.

Defenders are either faced with making extra rotations due to spacing (today's game), or they have less rotations due to no spacing (previous eras).

Defensive rotations offset today's spacing, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

[mehyaM24]

he's not unanimous.

definitely a goat candidate though - with the likes of kareem, russell & magic.

it really just depends on what your team needs. i would take jordan if my players had limited scoring skills.

[ShawkFactory]

Curry wouldn't get shit inside - due to no spacing, there's already 5 defenders on the strongside with multiple defenders standing where today's defender would flood to.

Defenders are either faced with making extra rotations due to spacing (today's game), or they have less rotations due to no spacing (previous eras).

Defensive rotations offset today's spacing, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).
Right...pretty sure that's not what he was talking about.

[LONGTIME]

http://23mjordan.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/6/4/13644425/1347558322.jpg

If that doesn't say GOAT, then it's definitely up there with the top tiers of b-ball players.

Oh. And he average 30.1 in his career (the best in NBA history), top 3 in steals of all time, top 4 in points of all time, and he played with the team that still hold the title of the best team record of the NBA history. He saved the Earth in Space Jam (a true story).

What more do you want?

Play against your favorite team in the present?

https://images.rapgenius.com/7a62662d34f59ae75868c5849b80f46a.480x270x1.jpg

[3ball]

it's common knowledge that perimeter defense in previous eras was tough and physical due to legal hand-checking, while the paint remained packed due to no spacing and legal paint-camping - these are the facts.

[sportjames23]

he's not unanimous.

definitely a goat candidate though - with the likes of kareem, russell & magic.

it really just depends on what your team needs. i would take jordan if my players had limited scoring skills.


Just when I thought you were coming around.

[mehyaM24]

Just when I thought you were coming around.

well, he's not.

unanimous would mean nobody really has an argument - and that simply isn't true.

mike = goat sg, and a top 3-4 candidate (arguably number one). seems fair to me, although i don't have a GOAT.

[3ball]

nobody guarding the perimeter



Exactly - today's perimeter defense is a league-mandated hands-off - space is now required between players on the perimeter, so shooters and penetrators achieve stats much easier against the visibly weaker defense:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/TgIP3N.gif



Otoh, hand-checking and physical contact was LEGAL in previous eras, so there was no space between perimeter defenders and the offensive player - no space makes it harder for perimeter players to drive or shoot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-13-2015/p8lMrn.gif


It's common knowledge that today's perimeter defense is hands-off and soft, while the paint is empty on every possession due to spacing and defensive 3 seconds.

Otoh, it's common knowledge that perimeter defense in previous eras was tough and physical due to legal hand-checking, while the paint remained packed due to no spacing and legal paint-camping - these are the facts.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Just when I thought you were coming around.
How can you dispute that? It's a fact that he's not the unanimous GOAT. Unanimous would mean that EVERYONE thinks that Jordan is the GOAT which is very clearly not the case.

Kareem, Wilt, and Russell all have their supporters who believe that each of these players is or has a case for being the GOAT. You may not agree with them but that doesn't change the fact that Jordan is not a unanimous pick.

[3ball]

Kareem, Wilt, and Russell all have their supporters



Jordan's PPG was literally 50-300% higher than his #2 guy (Pippen) every year... Otoh, Kareem was anywhere from 2nd to 6th fiddle on his Laker championship teams, depending on the year:


Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1982: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1985: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:


Should I post MJ's playoff stats??... :kobe:... MJ's lowest PPG in playoffs was 29.3, his rookie year (9 apg that year).. No comparison

[3ball]

unanimous would mean nobody really has an argument - and that simply isn't true.


What makes a player the best?

Accolades ----> Jordan
Stats ---------> Jordan
Impact -------> Jordan
Rings ---------> Jordan
Financial -----> Jordan

[3ball]

Unanimous would mean that EVERYONE thinks that Jordan is the GOAT which is very clearly not the case.


You're being nit-picky out of desperation.

Jordan is quite obviously the CONSENSUS goat.

And even Kareem/Russell fans would put their money on Jordan if they ever HAD to..
.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You're being nit-picky out of desperation.

Jordan is quite obviously the CONSENSUS goat.

And even Kareem/Russell fans would put their money on Jordan if they ever HAD to..
.
You're an idiot. Unanimous means that EVERYONE agrees on something and THAT was the premise of the thread. For the record, I do think that Jordan is the GOAT, but the answer to the thread's title is no.

[3ball]

You're an idiot. Unanimous means that EVERYONE agrees on something and THAT was the premise of the thread. For the record, I do think that Jordan is the GOAT, but the answer to the thread's title is no.
Again, Kareem/Russell fans would put their money on Jordan if they HAD to.. :rolleyes:

Therefore it's unanimous.. Everyone is just bullshitting

[sd3035]

Again, Kareem/Russell fans would put their money on Jordan if they HAD to.. :rolleyes:

Therefore it's unanimous.. Everyone is just bullshitting

11>6

[bdreason]

He's not unanimous. I have Kareem as the GOAT.

[3ball]

11>6
Russell is the only one with any argument.. I've always felt that way.. He's the only one that matches up championship/accolade-wise...

and he was always the best player on his team, just like Jordan... otoh, Kareem was anywhere from 2nd to 6th fiddle on his championship teams

guys like Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Lebron all played 2nd fiddle at some point as well.
.

[Straight_Ballin]

You're an idiot. Unanimous means that EVERYONE agrees on something and THAT was the premise of the thread. For the record, I do think that Jordan is the GOAT, but the answer to the thread's title is no.

You're splitting hairs here bro. Yes there's a few percent in this world that think Jordan is not the GOAT, but a majority thinks that he is.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Again, Kareem/Russell fans would put their money on Jordan if they HAD to.. :rolleyes:

Therefore it's unanimous.. Everyone is just bullshitting
You're so unbelievably stupid.


You're splitting hairs here bro. Yes there's a few percent in this world that think Jordan is not the GOAT, but a majority thinks that he is.
Majority =/= unanimous. The thread asks if it is unanimous. This isn't difficult.

[3ball]

You're so unbelievably stupid.


Honestly, Jordan is the only guy that never played 2nd fiddle - all these guys have:

Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan


Heck, Kareem was 2nd fiddle or worse for almost ALL his rings (he was 5th fiddle one year)

[ShawkFactory]

Honestly, Jordan is the only guy that never played 2nd fiddle - all these guys have:

Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan


Heck, Kareem was 2nd fiddle or worse for almost ALL his rings (he was 5th fiddle one year)
:milton

[Gileraracer]

Yes he was.

Thread can be closed.

[3ball]

:milton
2011

D WADE 2011 PLAYOFFS: 24.5 ppg on 48.5%
LEBRON 2011 PLAYOFFS: 23.7 ppg on 46.6%

D WADE 2011 FINALS: 26.5 ppg on 54.5%
LEBRON 2011 FINALS: 17.8 ppg on 48.7%

[sd3035]

2011

D WADE 2011 PLAYOFFS: 24.5 ppg on 48.5%
LEBRON 2011 PLAYOFFS: 23.7 ppg on 46.6%

D WADE 2011 FINALS: 26.5 ppg on 54.5%
LEBRON 2011 FINALS: 17.8 ppg on 48.7%


:lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

[ShawkFactory]

2011

D WADE 2011 PLAYOFFS: 24.5 ppg on 48.5%
LEBRON 2011 PLAYOFFS: 23.7 ppg on 46.6%

D WADE 2011 FINALS: 26.5 ppg on 54.5%
LEBRON 2011 FINALS: 17.8 ppg on 48.7%
A poor 6 games doesn't make you a second fiddle.

[Euroleague]

This same thread has come up here over and over and over........

I say the same thing every time - no, Jordan is not the "unanimous GOAT".

For example, I think Kareem is the NBA GOAT, not Jordan.

[PsychoBe]

2011

D WADE 2011 PLAYOFFS: 24.5 ppg on 48.5%
LEBRON 2011 PLAYOFFS: 23.7 ppg on 46.6%

D WADE 2011 FINALS: 26.5 ppg on 54.5%
LEBRON 2011 FINALS: 17.8 ppg on 48.7%

shut it down :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Straight_Ballin]

A poor 6 games doesn't make you a second fiddle.


1 poor game no.
2 poor games no.

6 games? Absolutely.

Lebron should never be compared to MJ because Lebron wasn't the man in all the finals he played in, unlike MJ who was the undisputed best player in every finals he ever played in.

[oarabbus]

Kareem and Russell are arguably GOATier than Jordan

[Straight_Ballin]

The whole Russel or KAJ argument being the GOAT is a strawman's argument. When you look at every other great team, there's always been a ball handler and distributor on the outside, and a scorer, a big man, on the inside. Jordan was unique in that he served as both. He was the primary ball handler and passer on the team, and he was the primary scorer in the paint. Former Pistons guard Joe Dumars once said that 95 percent of the Bulls' plays are intended for Michael Jordan, and the other five percent end up in his hands anyway. No other player in NBA history has won at least 6 championships the way that Jordan did.

Kareem had Oscar Robertson, and then Magic Johnson. Bill Russell had Bob Cousy, Sam Jones and John Havlicek.

Michael Jordan had Horace Grant, who had one season where he scored 16.2 points per game in the postseason. That's the only time in his career where he had a big man score more than 15 points in the playoffs.

That's not taking anything away from Pippen. It also says something about him that he was able to be the complement to Jordan, but Jordan was as unique as anyone has ever been in that regard.

Now the last thing you might bring up is that Russell's defense was the primary reason the Celtics won and that has to be taken into account. Well, the same is true of the Bulls. They were one of the elite defensive teams in their era, and Jordan was a big part of the reason why.

He was named to the NBA All-Defensive Team 11 times as a starter, an NBA-record for a shooting guard. Since then, Kobe Bryant has tied that record. Yes, Russell played great defense, but he is not the only player on his team who did, nor is he the only player on this list who did.

The reason that Jordan's rings count for more is that he did more than any of the others' in terms of both constant value and relative value, in both the postseason as a whole and in the finals specifically, and in both the stats and the narrative, Jordan is without question, the greatest postseason player of all time, and the greatest player of all time.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

The answer to the thread is still no and the only thing we're seeing now is insecurity. No idea why it comes out so often in Jordan stans, they're the last stan group who should feel insecure.

[Straight_Ballin]

The only reason why it's not unanimous is because those voting for KAJ or Russel do not take into account the above.

[GrapeApe]

The overwhelming majority have Jordan as the GOAT, but of course it's not unanimous. Nothing with any degree of subjectivity will ever be unanimous. Russell, Wilt, and KAJ each have their share of supporters, and I've even seen guys like Magic, Bird, and Big-O get mentioned.

[KungFuJoe]

Jordan is the GOAT.

You can argue KAJ, Wilt, etc being the better PLAYER. But Jordan is the GOAT and that is undeniable.

First of all, I think Jordan IS the best player ever. Arguments can be made for KAJ's college career or his longevity...or Wilt's insane numbers...but Jordan was just ridiculous. Look, most of you guys don't even remember, but Jordan was known as the GOAT when he was playing. This wasn't some history being rewritten or nostalgia. When he was playing almost everyone knew they were looking at the GOAT. Even Bird said it was like watching God play.

As for the GREATNESS...Jordan transcended the sport like no one else ever had and ever will. EVERYONE wanted to be like Mike. The commercials, the dunks, the grace in the air, the tongue wagging, the acrobatic movies. The SHOES!

And his game had no weakness. He was about as perfect a player as there was. You could knock his lack of three pointers, but remember that the three wasn't a big part of the game back then. He still managed to make 6 in a half in a Finals game. There's no doubt he could have been a very effective three point shooter if the game called for it.

He did it on both ends. He holds the record for most steals in a half at EIGHT! He led the league a record three times in steals.

I don't need to go into scoring because it's obvious what he did, but let's talk about Playoffs...where it matters.

Jordan NEVER scored less than 15 points in ANY playoff game EVER.

He NEVER scored less than 20 points in any FINALS game ever. Talk about stepping it up.

I mean right there...that's just insane when you consider how many playoffs and Finals games he's had...and not ONE off game.

And even talking about longevity. He holds the record for being the oldest player to ever score 50 points when he did it at 38. And he's the ONLY person to score 40 or more at the age of 40 and he did it TWICE.

And he had all the intangibles. Mental toughness...insane in the clutch...will to win...flu game, coming back from a broken foot and SETTING the playoff scoring record of 63. He missed almost the entire season!

The list goes on and on. He is undeniably the greatest and in my opinion, the best basketball player who ever lived.

[SouBeachTalents]

Agree with most other posters, Jordan is the consensus GOAT, and I have him as GOAT by a pretty strong margin as well. But others like Kareem (longevity), Russell (championships) and Wilt (stats) have arguments as well. Gretzky imo is an example of an unanimous GOAT, where NOBODY would have an argument over him

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan is the unanimous GOAT perimeter player though, no other perimeter player has an argument over him all time imo

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Agree with most other posters, Jordan is the consensus GOAT, and I have him as GOAT by a pretty strong margin as well. But others like Kareem (longevity), Russell (championships) and Wilt (stats) have arguments as well. Gretzky imo is an example of an unanimous GOAT, where NOBODY would have an argument over him

Well said. I also think Jordan has the best case for GOAT, but by no means is that 100% concrete. Consensus would definitely be a better way to word it.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Gretzky isn't a unanimous GOAT, consensus fits him better. Not sure if any sport has a unanimous GOAT, would make for an interesting topic.

[SouBeachTalents]

Gretzky isn't a unanimous GOAT, consensus fits him better. Not sure if any sport has a unanimous GOAT, would make for an interesting topic.

Which players in your opinion would have an argument over Gretzky as GOAT?

[La Frescobaldi]

No.

Chamberlain, Jabbar, Jordan in their own little circle, all other players on some lower level.

Couldn't call one of those 3 greater than the other. Can't be done.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Which players in your opinion would have an argument over Gretzky as GOAT?
Lemieux and Orr are at least on par with him imo. There's also a case for Gordie Howe but it's not one that I put much stock in.

I have Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr all together as GOAT tier players without a clear leader. Gretzky has the career edge on both and great numbers to boot but Lemieux was his equal as a player (if not superior) imo despite battling injuries throughout his career and Orr redefined an entire position (he wasn't the first offensive defenseman but he was by far the best of them) and was the greatest two way player ever.

Just my .02

[tontoz]

You mean Nike, the same marketing team as the likes of Kobe and LeBron? :roll:

Bron Bron got a $100 million dollar deal from Nike and had commercials running calling him the 'Chosen One' and the Savior of the NBA before he even played a single game as a professional.

Jordan's first contract with Nike was worth $500K, and he only got that because his first choice Adidas turned him down.

Fast forward to now, the Jordan brand makes 8-9 times more in revenue per year than the LeBron brand.

That's not because of marketing, homie.

:bowdown:

Damn living legend just got punk'd.

I think most people would pick MJ as the GOAT. People too young to have seen him play wouldn't believe just how much of an icon he was back then.

[72-10]

well, he's not.

unanimous would mean nobody really has an argument - and that simply isn't true.

mike = goat sg, and a top 3-4 candidate (arguably number one). seems fair to me, although i don't have a GOAT.

Who would have an argument over Jordan?

you guys are funny:lol

[72-10]

lol at the thread

[k0kakw0rld]

KAJ is he true GOAT

[Asukal]

KAJ? 2/6 FMVP's, would have had only 1 title if he didn't play with another GOAT candidate. KAJ has no business being in the GOAT discussion. :hammerhead:

Russell? Has a case, but he played in a bush league and had the most stacked team along his side. You need proof? He didn't need to score to win games. :oldlol:

Wilt? Are you serious? LOL! :roll:

Jordan da G.O.A.T. :bowdown:

[livinglegend]

KAJ? 2/6 FMVP's, would have had only 1 title if he didn't play with another GOAT candidate. KAJ has no business being in the GOAT discussion. :hammerhead:

Russell? Has a case, but he played in a bush league and had the most stacked team along his side. You need proof? He didn't need to score to win games. :oldlol:

Wilt? Are you serious? LOL! :roll:

Jordan da G.O.A.T. :bowdown:

KAJ would have 1 title if he didn't play with another GOAT candidate? That's already much better than Jordan's 1-9 without Pippen.

Russell had the most stacked team? No. Jordan did. His team was a contender and won 55 games without him. If refs don't screw them, they win the championship. Russell's teams didn't win anything without him.
And basketball is much more than scoring.

[Young X]

Michael Jeffrey Jordan is the GOAT. Just accept it and move on.

[72-10]

hey bungalow bill

[Asukal]

KAJ would have 1 title if he didn't play with another GOAT candidate? That's already much better than Jordan's 1-9 without Pippen.

Russell had the most stacked team? No. Jordan did. His team was a contender and won 55 games without him. If refs don't screw them, they win the championship. Russell's teams didn't win anything without him.
And basketball is much more than scoring.

Coming from a leflop fan. :rolleyes:

KAJ had the 70s all to himself and couldn't dominate. Just look up the teams that won those years, heck he was losing with HCA against sub .500 teams in the playoffs. Jordan faced and lost to a 60 win bucks team as a rookie, then lost to either the bird celtics or the bad boy pistons. Tell me again how 1-9 was so terrible it tainted Jordan's legacy? Truth is you idiotic leflop stans are the only ones who bring it up like it mattered. :hammerhead:

Russell? He did have the most stacked team in his era it's not even debatable. Of course a lot of it is due to his impact as a player. Still he wasn't required to score, giving him more energy to spend on defense. Jordan had to play both sides at a high level. You idiots love to spew 55 wins as if it meant anything, they didn't even win the title. Why don't you tell me what happened when Jordan came back for a full season after his defeat at the hands of the 95 Magic? Yeah the sweep happened, then 72-10, and if that's not enough add another 3 rings to it ass. :whatever:

Jordan da G.O.A.T. :bowdown:

[GrapeApe]

Who would have an argument over Jordan?

you guys are funny:lol

I'm not saying I agree, but Wilt, KAJ, and Russell. There is no definitive criteria for ranking players. It's highly subjective from person to person. Though Jordan has arguably the best combination of everything, it's not a cut and dry thing. Wilt has unmatched statistical domination, which for some may be the primary ranking criteria. Others may value winning above all else and argue for Russell. KAJ's was dominant at all levels, had great longevity, and the most MVP's.

Again, nothing with an element of subjectivity will ever be unanimous. Consensus, overwhelming majority, etc....., but not inarguable.

[sportjames23]

:bowdown:

Damn living legend just got punk'd.

I think most people would pick MJ as the GOAT. People too young to have seen him play wouldn't believe just how much of an icon he was back then.


This. These youngins today really can't understand how much an icon MJ was back then (hell, he still is now).

Take Bron, Kobe, Durant, Curry and all other stars today and combine then and they still wouldn't compare how big an icon MJ was in the 90s.

[sportjames23]

Coming from a leflop fan. :rolleyes:

KAJ had the 70s all to himself and couldn't dominate. Just look up the teams that won those years, heck he was losing with HCA against sub .500 teams in the playoffs. Jordan faced and lost to a 60 win bucks team as a rookie, then lost to either the bird celtics or the bad boy pistons. Tell me again how 1-9 was so terrible it tainted Jordan's legacy? Truth is you idiotic leflop stans are the only ones who bring it up like it mattered. :hammerhead:

Russell? He did have the most stacked team in his era it's not even debatable. Of course a lot of it is due to his impact as a player. Still he wasn't required to score, giving him more energy to spend on defense. Jordan had to play both sides at a high level. You idiots love to spew 55 wins as if it meant anything, they didn't even win the title. Why don't you tell me what happened when Jordan came back for a full season after his defeat at the hands of the 95 Magic? Yeah the sweep happened, then 72-10, and if that's not enough add another 3 rings to it ass. :whatever:

Jordan da G.O.A.T. :bowdown:


Chewed that nikka up. :cheers:

[3ball]

.
The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man:


...2000-2014.................1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Mashburn

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis

[3ball]

.
Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG


Regular Season:

Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:..... 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:... 1975
George Gervin: 1982
Kobe Bryant:... 2006
Elgin Baylor:... 1963
Tiny Archibald: 1973
Dominique:..... 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan:.... 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:......... 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:......... 1974, 1975
George Gervin:...... 1975, 1982
Jerry West:........... 1966
Rick Barry:........... 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:. 1995
Kobe Bryant:......... 2007
Dominique:........... 1988
Allen Iverson:........ 2005
Kareem Jabbar:..... 1975


* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career


Notice that Lebron is not on the list - the 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume playoffs and we saw what happened when the high volume (27 fga) forced him to stray from his normal diet of 3-pointers and layups - he shot an abysmal 41%.. Unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume or require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.

In the Finals, he only shot 39% - it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming.. They only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals.. Compare that to MJ, where his high efficiency at high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too..

But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - the only players that reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25+ shot attempts on 45%+ during a championship playoff run) is MJ (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.

As the stats show below, Jordan is the most efficient high volume shooter of all time.. Jordan simply DID MORE (higher volume) at the same efficiency.

If Kobe, Curry or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume.


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:.... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
CURRY:... 32.6 pts.. 0.9 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 9.1 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 0.2 blk.. 24.8 fga.. 115 ORtg.. 59.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts


Considering the #2 thru #6 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is a 43.3 point, which is all alone far above the pack - MJ simply did more (higher volume) while still maintaining equal or better efficiency.
.

[Bless Mathews]

Jordan is the goat.

Anyone that says otherwise are just a bunch of 20 year old virgins.

Jordan is the goat of all goats.


GTFO.

[diamenz]

Jordan is the goat.

Anyone that says otherwise are just a bunch of 20 year old virgins.

Jordan is the goat of all goats.


GTFO.

this right here. if you watched him, you know. the championships, the statement games, the rival ownage, the artistry - you name it.

[T_L_P]

He's the greatest Playoff performer ever and has twice as many Finals MVPs as the next guy.

Yes.

[feyki]

This. These youngins today really can't understand how much an icon MJ was back then (hell, he still is now).

Take Bron, Kobe, Durant, Curry and all other stars today and combine then and they still wouldn't compare how big an icon MJ was in the 90s.

Yao was more popular than Dirk at one time . You can't handle the truth with populism .

[sdot_thadon]

In the absolute sense of the question, no. Simply because everyone doesn't have him as goat. I think maybe op meant consensus, which to that question yes. He's definitely my pick for goat but I have a bone to pick with you guys from my generation. I keep seeing you guys throw around the you didn't see him play live so you don't know card. How many of you saw Kareem's prime live? Or wilt's? Oscar's? Russell's? Doctor J?

Exactly.

Super hypocritical to use that argument when the same can be said of yourselves in relation to other strong candidates. It's pretty silly to use this stance when the majority of you didn't see half of the consensus top 10 live either........:coleman:

[Psileas]

In the absolute sense of the question, no. Simply because everyone doesn't have him as goat. I think maybe op meant consensus, which to that question yes. He's definitely my pick for goat but I have a bone to pick with you guys from my generation. I keep seeing you guys throw around the you didn't see him play live so you don't know card. How many of you saw Kareem's prime live? Or wilt's? Oscar's? Russell's? Doctor J?

Exactly.

Super hypocritical to use that argument when the same can be said of yourselves in relation to other strong candidates. It's pretty silly to use this stance when the majority of you didn't see half of the consensus top 10 live either........:coleman:

:applause:

[Derka]

Whether or not other people agree with me is irrelevant to my opinion. He's the best player I've ever watched in my lifetime.

[Cold soul]

Yes Jordan is unanimous GOAT. The most complete and best player of my lifetime.

[LAZERUSS]

Give MJ poor rosters and his teams are blown out in the first round.

Give MJ supporting casts that could win 55 games without him (and in that season, their two best players missed a combined 22 games...or they surely would have won 60), and nearly win the title without him...and yes, he can win 6 rings. Especially in a watered-down NBA, with most teams lucky to have two quality players.

[ClipperRevival]

Give MJ poor rosters and his teams are blown out in the first round.

Give MJ supporting casts that could win 55 games without him (and in that season, their two best players missed a combined 22 games...or they surely would have won 60), and nearly win the title without him...and yes, he can win 6 rings. Especially in a watered-down NBA, with most teams lucky to have two quality players.

Stay salty Wilt fans. 2/6. Epic choke jobs. The "Big Dipper". What a fitting name. His performance dipped when it mattered most. :applause:

[sdot_thadon]

Stay salty Wilt fans. 2/6. Epic choke jobs. The "Big Dipper". What a fitting name. His performance dipped when it mattered most. :applause:
Don't take this wrong clippers you're a decent poster but did you watch wilt live?

[ClipperRevival]

Don't take this wrong clippers you're a decent poster but did you watch wilt live?

No I didn't. But you can watch documentaries about him and find out what type of person he was, what drove him along with the recaps of specific playoff series that he was infamous for.

For instance, you don't need to have seen the 1995 playoff matchup between the Rockets/Spurs to know that Olajuwon schooled Robinson. You can watch documentaries, you can look up the stats, you can read up on it, etc to get a good picture of that series.

Over time, choking is exposed and legendary performances are glorified. The truth eventually comes out. Wilt had his chance to further his legacy but came up short when it mattered most and that should always count against him when judging the GOAT.

[livinglegend]

Coming from a leflop fan. :rolleyes:

KAJ had the 70s all to himself and couldn't dominate. Just look up the teams that won those years, heck he was losing with HCA against sub .500 teams in the playoffs. Jordan faced and lost to a 60 win bucks team as a rookie, then lost to either the bird celtics or the bad boy pistons. Tell me again how 1-9 was so terrible it tainted Jordan's legacy? Truth is you idiotic leflop stans are the only ones who bring it up like it mattered. :hammerhead:

A very wise man once said: NO EXCUSES! 1-9, he was a loser without Pippen and Phil. Accept it and move on.


Russell? He did have the most stacked team in his era it's not even debatable. Of course a lot of it is due to his impact as a player. Still he wasn't required to score, giving him more energy to spend on defense. Jordan had to play both sides at a high level. You idiots love to spew 55 wins as if it meant anything, they didn't even win the title. Why don't you tell me what happened when Jordan came back for a full season after his defeat at the hands of the 95 Magic? Yeah the sweep happened, then 72-10, and if that's not enough add another 3 rings to it ass. :whatever:


90% of the game is played without the ball. Russell did everything needed to win for his team. He even coached his team to get them to championship. When he arrived, Celtics started to win, and when he left, he stopped to win for a few years. He even scored more than 30 points in games 7 where his team needed him to score.

As far as 55 wins, yeah it means a lot. You add any all-time great to a 55 wins team, they will win multiple championships, especially in a weak era like the 90's. Put Kobe on those Bulls team, they easily 3peat.

[livinglegend]

He's the greatest Playoff performer ever and has twice as many Finals MVPs as the next guy.

Yes.

Weak argument. There was no FMVP in Russell's time.
BTW, the award is named in his honor.

[LAZERUSS]

No I didn't. But you can watch documentaries about him and find out what type of person he was, what drove him along with the recaps of specific playoff series that he was infamous for.

For instance, you don't need to have seen the 1995 playoff matchup between the Rockets/Spurs to know that Olajuwon schooled Robinson. You can watch documentaries, you can look up the stats, you can read up on it, etc to get a good picture of that series.

Over time, choking is exposed and legendary performances are glorified. The truth eventually comes out. Wilt had his chance to further his legacy but came up short when it mattered most and that should always count against him when judging the GOAT.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain took LAST PLACE rosters to a game sevens (and close losses )against Russell's STACKED Celtics...in series in which he beat Russell far greater than what Hakeem did to DRob in '95.

In fact, Wilt battled Russell in EIGHT post-season series, and outscored, outrebounded, and outshot him in all...and in most by HUGE margins.

AND, when Wilt FINALLY had an EQUAL supporting cast, that was healthy, he and his TEAM ANNIHILATED Russell's 60-21 and 8-time defending champs...and in a series in which one GOAT brutalized another GOAT by the most staggering margin in NBA history.

If Wilt were getting "beaten" by Russell, than MJ was getting slaughtered by Bird (and Dumars.)

[MMM]

Jordan won 6 out of 8 years and was the best player in the league 6 of those 7 years. People mentioning 1-9 are ****ing idiots as if losing can't fuel the desire to over come it and ultimately produce winning. For example if Bron wins the next 4 titles and is the top player in the league doesn't that level of dominance erase his failures

[livinglegend]

Jordan won 6 out of 8 years and was the best player in the league 6 of those 7 years. People mentioning 1-9 are ****ing idiots as if losing can't fuel the desire to over come it and ultimately produce winning. For example if Bron wins the next 4 titles and is the top player in the league doesn't that level of dominance erase his failures

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Great way of rewritting history. As we really gonna act like Jordan and his desire to win alone would beat those Celtics's team? :oldlol: ::roll:

[ClipperRevival]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain took LAST PLACE rosters to a game sevens (and close losses )against Russell's STACKED Celtics...in series in which he beat Russell far greater than what Hakeem did to DRob in '95.

In fact, Wilt battled Russell in EIGHT post-season series, and outscored, outrebounded, and outshot him in all...and in most by HUGE margins.

AND, when Wilt FINALLY had an EQUAL supporting cast, that was healthy, he and his TEAM ANNIHILATED Russell's 60-21 and 8-time defending champs...and in a series in which one GOAT brutalized another GOAT by the most staggering margin in NBA history.

If Wilt were getting "beaten" by Russell, than MJ was getting slaughtered by Bird (and Dumars.)

Honest question. How would you describe Wilt as a playoff performer. Don't throw millions of his stats at me. I know about them. I just want you to describe what type of player he was in the playoffs in words.

[LAZERUSS]

Honest question. How would you describe Wilt as a playoff performer. Don't throw millions of his stats at me. I know about them. I just want you to describe what type of player he was in the playoffs in words.

Easy....DOMINANT. A PRIME Chamberlain CRUSHED his HOF peers in his post-season H2H's, and often carried far inferior rosters (that generally puked all over the floor in their biggest games) to within an eyelash of beating far superior ones.

And even a well-past-his -prime Wilt was credited with outplaying a PEAK KAJ in their two post-season series.

[MMM]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Great way of rewritting history. As we really gonna act like Jordan and his desire to win alone would beat those Celtics's team? :oldlol: ::roll:

i;m actually a Celtics fan and those mid 80 teams are some of the best teams in Association history but my post is talking about MJ's dominance in the 90's. No player dominated the league like that since Russell (the greatest winner of all time). Should also mention i'm not a fan of GOAT discussions or rankings because context gets forgotten over time.

[ClipperRevival]

Easy....DOMINANT. A PRIME Chamberlain CRUSHED his HOF peers in his post-season H2H's, and often carried far inferior rosters (that generally puked all over the floor in their biggest games) to within an eyelash of beating far superior ones.

And even a well-past-his -prime Wilt was credited with outplaying a PEAK KAJ in their two post-season series.

You are truly an unapologetic, biased Wilt fan. I was hoping you would give some in the way of his bad playoff performances. No point in discussing further.

[LAZERUSS]

You are truly an unapologetic, biased Wilt fan. I was hoping you would give some in the way of his bad playoff performances. No point in discussing further.

Wilt basically had ONE sub-par playoff performance, and that was in his '69 Finals. In a series in which he still outplayed Russell, and in a game seven in which he wiped the floor with Russell.

And even the '69 Finals are interesting from this point of view...

It was West (and Baylor) who were taking the shots...and the result? A game seven, two point loss. maybe if Wilt's COACH had had Chamberlain taking control of the offense, and who knows how that series might have gone.

I do find it interesting, though, that after the Lakers basically fired Van Breda Kolff, Chamberlain's new coach, Joe Mullaney, immediately went to Wilt, and asked him to be the focal point of the Laker offense. And how did Chamberlain respond? He was leading the scoring, at 32.2 ppg, (and rpg at 20.6 rpg, and FG% at .579) up thru game nine, when he trashed his knee.

And even then, a Wilt who had had major knee surgery just four months prior, hung a 23-24 .625 FG% seven game Finals.

Oh, and BTW, when did West FINALLY win a ring? In the '72 post-season, in which he shot .376 from the floor, and with a Finals in which he shot .325 from the field. How did he win that ring? With WILT leading the team to a title.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wilt basically had ONE sub-par playoff performance, and that was in his '69 Finals. In a series in which he still outplayed Russell, and in a game seven in which he wiped the floor with Russell.

And even the '69 Finals are interesting from this point of view...

It was West (and Baylor) who were taking the shots...and the result? A game seven, two point loss. maybe if Wilt's COACH had had Chamberlain taking control of the offense, and who knows how that series might have gone.

I do find it interesting, though, that after the Lakers basically fired Van Breda Kolff, Chamberlain's new coach, Joe Mullaney, immediately went to Wilt, and asked him to be the focal point of the Laker offense. And how did Chamberlain respond? He was leading the scoring, at 32.2 ppg, (and rpg at 20.6 rpg, and FG% at .579) up thru game nine, when he trashed his knee.

And even then, a Wilt who had had major knee surgery just four months prior, hung a 23-24 .625 FG% seven game Finals.

Oh, and BTW, when did West FINALLY win a ring? In the '72 post-season, in which he shot .376 from the floor, and with a Finals in which he shot .325 from the field. How did he win that ring? With WILT leading the team to a title.

Laz, why did Wilt's scoring decline from the regular season to the playoffs every season of his career?

[LAZERUSS]

You are truly an unapologetic, biased Wilt fan. I was hoping you would give some in the way of his bad playoff performances. No point in discussing further.

You constantly blame WILT for his TEAM's lack of success, and yet you praise MJ for his winning success.

How come MJ couldn't win a title in his first six seasons? And particularly, how come he was swept twice in a row by Bird's Celtics?

If you are blaming his TEAMMATES, then, welcome to Wilt's world my friend.

Post-season flop jobs? How about MJ being outplayed by Mongrief in the '85 first round? Or his team's being swept in '86 and '87 by Bird's Celtics? And in that '87 series loss, he only shot .417, which included an elimination game performance of 9-35 from the field? Or being beaten three straight times by the "Bad Boys", and his scoring and efficiency dropping considerably in all three? Or MJ QUITTING on his team in a pivotal game five of the '89 ECF's, and in a series that was tied 2-2?

Or MJ inheriting a team that went 55-27 the year before without him, and almost advanced to the ECF's, and yet getting wiped out in the second round? Or MJ shooting .427 and even .415 in two of his last Finals?

TEAMs win titles...not players.

[ClipperRevival]

Damn Laz, that's some weak stuff.

How about 1968 and 1969? When Wilt's team had HCA over an aging Russell and his Celtics in both years and he choked away game 7, at home? And Wilt's team was up 3-1 in 1968 and lost 3 straight.

Wilt in game 7 of 1968: 14 pts
Wilt in game 7 of 1969: 18 pts (4/13 from the field)

Yeah, that's dominance. Now I await your pages and pages of individual stats. :rolleyes:

[ClipperRevival]

Wilt scoring average:

Regular season: 30.1
Playoffs: 22.5
Finals: 18.7

They don't call him the "Big Dipper" for nothing. :roll:


MJ scoring average:

Regular season: 30.1
Playoffs: 33.4
Finals: 33.6

[LAZERUSS]

Damn Laz, that's some weak stuff.

How about 1968 and 1969? When Wilt's team had HCA over an aging Russell and his Celtics in both years and he choked away game 7, at home? And Wilt's team was up 3-1 in 1968 and lost 3 straight.

Wilt in game 7 of 1968: 14 pts
Wilt in game 7 of 1969: 18 pts (4/13 from the field)

Yeah, that's dominance. Now I await your pages and pages of individual stats. :rolleyes:

Let's clear up the '69 Game 7 right now...

Russell: 6 pts, 21 rebs, 2-7 FG/FGA, 2-4 FT/FTA, .333 TS%
Wilt: 18 pts, 27 rebs, 7-8 FG/FGA, 4-13 FT/FTA, .621 TS%

And, Wilt was injured and only played 43 minutes, and was kept on the bench by his coach in the last five minutes of a 2 point loss.


'68 has been explained to you before, but, here we go again...

In the first five games of that series, including a potential close out in game five, and injured Wilt brutalized Russell. In that game five, Wilt outscored Russell, 28-8, outrebounded Russell, 30-24, and outshot him, 11-21 to 4-14. Again...a HOBBLED Wilt, and who was NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout that series.

You want more on that series?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

It was considered a miracle that that Philly team was able to dispose of the Knicks in the first round (in a series in which Chamberlain led BOTH teams in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and assists....and in which he outshot Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin.)

[ClipperRevival]

Let's clear up the '69 Game 7 right now...

Russell: 6 pts, 21 rebs, 2-7 FG/FGA, 2-4 FT/FTA, .333 TS%
Wilt: 18 pts, 27 rebs, 7-8 FG/FGA, 4-13 FT/FTA, .621 TS%

And, Wilt was injured and only played 43 minutes, and was kept on the bench by his coach in the last five minutes of a 2 point loss.


'68 has been explained to you before, but, here we go again...

In the first five games of that series, including a potential close out in game five, and injured Wilt brutalized Russell. In that game five, Wilt outscored Russell, 28-8, outrebounded Russell, 30-24, and outshot him, 11-21 to 4-14. Again...a HOBBLED Wilt, and who was NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout that series.

You want more on that series?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

It was considered a miracle that that Philly team was able to dispose of the Knicks in the first round (in a series in which Chamberlain led BOTH teams in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and assists....and in which he outshot Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin.)

Translation: It's not Wilt's fault.

[Psileas]

Damn Laz, that's some weak stuff.

How about 1968 and 1969? When Wilt's team had HCA over an aging Russell and his Celtics in both years and he choked away game 7, at home? And Wilt's team was up 3-1 in 1968 and lost 3 straight.

Wilt in game 7 of 1968: 14 pts
Wilt in game 7 of 1969: 18 pts (4/13 from the field)

Yeah, that's dominance. Now I await your pages and pages of individual stats.

You only posted his points and you call others unapologetic and biased?
1983 WCF, Game 6. Magic Johnson's line: 2 points. "Dominance". :rolleyes:
By the way, even according to scoring Wilt still outscored Russell in both those games. Then again, Russell never was "dominant".

[Asukal]

LOL these loser grandpas are back in full force. :roll:

You senile old fools should give up on the choke god. It's impossible to root for that guy, he is dead already just let him go. He won at least 2, now let him sit at the back end of the ATG lists. :hammerhead:

G.O.A.T. choker ILt :bowdown: