Such a myth about toughness etc

[sundizz]

Earlier era's were not tougher at all. All they had was less skilled players whose entire role was pretty much to lay someone out occasionally. Fights weren't as big of a deal. It was more of a "man's game". However, the ACTUAL game of basketball (the other 99.99% of the time) the game was similarly physical or less physical.

Check this out from Bird's greatest game. That was a foul. And no one was surprised or outraged about that sort of foul call. It was common place.

https://youtu.be/maS9smxRubI?t=176

If you actually watch the clips and see how much space is given to players it is amazing (a lot) compared to what defenders give players nowadays. The only reason sometimes players get wide open now is because of a well run offensive set. However, in general players are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better defenders now.

With that pace and space back then Curry would of easily dropped 36 ppg, 11 apg, 7 rpg, 3 spg on 55%, 50%, 90%. He is unique though (not saying everyone would improve back then). They had better passers back then. That helps him because he is good at playing WITHIN the offense.

The MOST physical era was when Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and KG were all at their best. People hacked all the time (because of the precedent set by Shaq) on both the post and perimeter. Players like Bowen would undercut people etc. The slow throw it inside style led to a lot more pushing and hands on people than I've ever seen in basketball (before and since).

[DoctorP]

https://youtu.be/maS9smxRubI?t=176


That was just a bad/superstar call.

[3ball]

no one agrees with you.

here are the facts - the no spacing and higher physicality of previous eraas meant players had to be more skilled.

otoh, today's spaced-out, touch-free game makes it easier for players - all players have to do is shoot threes or set screens.. it's boring af

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/LmyGlA.gif


In the 80's, teams averaged more PPG because they didn't have to slow the game down to run offense so they can get good 3-point looks...

2-pointers don't have to be as open - a higher level of contest has always been acceptable on 2-pointers.. Teams didn't have to run as much offense to get these lower-quality looks - they just ran up and down and took one contested 2-pointer after another - go watch old footage and you'll see this.

Also, shots IN TRANSITION were highly-contested because defenders ran to the PAINT in transition, not the 3-point line (see gif above) - again, teams ran up and down the court taking one contested 2-pointer after another, whereas today's game is slower since it's designed to get good 3-point looks (boring af).

[keep-itreal]

http://imagesmtv-a.akamaihd.net/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/harden-swaggy-p-1436205238.gif

[GIF REACTION]

It's more a mental aspect... But we must remember it goes both ways. Imagine the Lebron stiff arm in the 90's...

[3ball]

http://imagesmtv-a.akamaihd.net/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/harden-swaggy-p-1436205238.gif
Very standard - today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds keeps the paint clear...

But in previous eras, players rarely waited behind the 3-point line to space the floor - teams only attempted 2 three-pointers per game in 1985.. If that gif was from a previous era, players would be closer to the rim, which would allow defenders to occupy the paint more.

[sportjames23]

It's more a mental aspect... But we must remember it goes both ways. Imagine the Lebron stiff arm in the 90's...


Imagine Bron tryin to stiff arm Charles Oakley or Anthony Mason.










































:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

Imagine Bron tryin to stiff arm Charles Oakley or Anthony Mason.



C'mon bro... You know Lebron's go-to move be workin'


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/o7Nx6U.gif


:roll: :yaohappy: :dancin

[sundizz]

Let's be honest here - teams didn't really care much for defense back then (more about toughness). The one team that actually had the personnel (which every team pretty much has now compared to then) + the attitude was the Pistons (for the 80's). In the 90's again the defense was pathetic until after Jordan left and the Duncan and Robinson Spurs took over.

From 1998 onwards defense has ratcheted up by a large margin. The Duncan Rob Spurs, the Kobe Shaq Lakers, the Dikembe Sixers, the KG Celtics, the Dwight Magic, the Ben Wallace Pistons, the current Warriors, and the current Spurs are probably 8 of the top 10 ever defenses played in the history of basketball. The only ones that could also make that list are the Jordan Bulls and the maybe the Bad Boy Pistons.

[StephHamann]

From 1998 onwards defense has ratcheted up by a large margin. The Duncan Rob Spurs, the Kobe Shaq Lakers, the Dikembe Sixers, the KG Celtics, the Dwight Magic, the Ben Wallace Pistons, the current Warriors, and the current Spurs are probably 8 of the top 10 ever defenses played in the history of basketball. The only ones that could also make that list are the Jordan Bulls and the maybe the Bad Boy Pistons.

Current Warriors are ranked 20. in opp. PPG and 10th. in defensive rating. :whatever:

[Leroy Jetson]

That mustache! I think Bird must have been shooting a porno after the game.

[sd3035]

Bran would dominate those scrawny wimps

Curry would be a physical specimen in that emaciated midget era

[90sgoat]

Let's be honest here - teams didn't really care much for defense back then (more about toughness). The one team that actually had the personnel (which every team pretty much has now compared to then) + the attitude was the Pistons (for the 80's). In the 90's again the defense was pathetic until after Jordan left and the Duncan and Robinson Spurs took over.

From 1998 onwards defense has ratcheted up by a large margin. The Duncan Rob Spurs, the Kobe Shaq Lakers, the Dikembe Sixers, the KG Celtics, the Dwight Magic, the Ben Wallace Pistons, the current Warriors, and the current Spurs are probably 8 of the top 10 ever defenses played in the history of basketball. The only ones that could also make that list are the Jordan Bulls and the maybe the Bad Boy Pistons.

I want you to watch just the first quarter of Bulls vs Sonics in 1996 and then say with a straight face that the defense was pathetic.

Also, it's true that the 80s were not constant wrestling matches, but you would, and that is a certainty, not be allowed to walk unimpeded to the basket all game long. You did that a couple of times and some big fellow is going to foul you real hard, Flagrant 2 level and it would be called a normal foul. It wasn't really basketball, but it was a fact that if you drove, you better be ready to get hit eventually.

[pauk]

Imagine Bron tryin to stiff arm Charles Oakley or Anthony Mason.










































:roll: :roll: :roll:

Better yet, imagine them trying to actually not get dizzy seeing Lebron circle around or blow by them all game long....

[3ball]

Better yet, imagine them trying to actually not get dizzy seeing Lebron circle around or blow by them all game long....
Lebron rarely "blows by" guys... He's too bulky and slow for that

[ClipperRevival]

Earlier era's were not tougher at all. All they had was less skilled players whose entire role was pretty much to lay someone out occasionally. Fights weren't as big of a deal. It was more of a "man's game". However, the ACTUAL game of basketball (the other 99.99% of the time) the game was similarly physical or less physical.

Check this out from Bird's greatest game. That was a foul. And no one was surprised or outraged about that sort of foul call. It was common place.

https://youtu.be/maS9smxRubI?t=176

If you actually watch the clips and see how much space is given to players it is amazing (a lot) compared to what defenders give players nowadays. The only reason sometimes players get wide open now is because of a well run offensive set. However, in general players are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better defenders now.

With that pace and space back then Curry would of easily dropped 36 ppg, 11 apg, 7 rpg, 3 spg on 55%, 50%, 90%. He is unique though (not saying everyone would improve back then). They had better passers back then. That helps him because he is good at playing WITHIN the offense.

The MOST physical era was when Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and KG were all at their best. People hacked all the time (because of the precedent set by Shaq) on both the post and perimeter. Players like Bowen would undercut people etc. The slow throw it inside style led to a lot more pushing and hands on people than I've ever seen in basketball (before and since).

Dam man, you're showing your age and therefore, your ignorance. The NBA was much softer by the time Shaq, Kobe and Duncan came along. I started watching around the late 80's and that's when basketball was toughest. I can't comment on eras before that and whether if it was as tough but I do know that they let a lot of sh*t slide in the late 80's to early 90's. They started cleaning it up in the mid 90's.

But anyways, physicality is a part of the game. If you have played the game, you know it is. You get contact, sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally, but it's part of the game. Back in those days, it was legal to commit a "hard foul" to send a message. And the opponent would come back with their own "hard foul" and that's when things could escalate. And I miss that part of the game. Rivalries are born from emotion, physicality and sometimes, fights.

The notion that the game was primitive and was played by a bunch of scrubs is PURE IGNORANCE. If you saw that era, you would know. If you have been watching basketball for decades, you would know this. Players aren't "soft" or "tough" based on eras. They play as physical as the rules allow them to be. Right now, the league is making the game too soft. And that takes away from the game.

[3ball]

.
........................Today's spacing and extra rotations are offsetting


In the picture below, weakside floor-spreaders (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Noah doesn't leave #20 Mosgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders on it.


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



Otoh, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders - the lack of spacing means there are already defenders standing where today's defender would flood to:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/RHtH1z.gif


Defenders must make extra rotations due to spacing (today's game), or they have less rotations due to no spacing (previous eras).

The offsetting nature of spacing and rotations is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

[iznogood]

Dam man, you're showing your age and therefore, your ignorance. The NBA was much softer by the time Shaq, Kobe and Duncan came along. I started watching around the late 80's and that's when basketball was toughest. I can't comment on eras before that and whether if it was as tough but I do know that they let a lot of sh*t slide in the late 80's to early 90's. They started cleaning it up in the mid 90's.

But anyways, physicality is a part of the game. If you have played the game, you know it is. You get contact, sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally, but it's part of the game. Back in those days, it was legal to commit a "hard foul" to send a message. And the opponent would come back with their own "hard foul" and that's when things could escalate. And I miss that part of the game. Rivalries are born from emotion, physicality and sometimes, fights.

The notion that the game was primitive and was played by a bunch of scrubs is PURE IGNORANCE. If you saw that era, you would know. If you have been watching basketball for decades, you would know this. Players aren't "soft" or "tough" based on eras. They play as physical as the rules allow them to be. Right now, the league is making the game too soft. And that takes away from the game.
What you're saying might be true, but it's not what OP is arguing. Hard fouls are not the same as hard defense. I agree with the OP when he says the game was softer in the way how the defenses are allowed to legally defend.

Just look at the difference of the amount of contact allowed when players are setting the screens and fighting through them. Also the amount of holding and pushing going on when people are posting up. Lowering your shoulder is almost never called anymore and hip checking and shoulder bumping are a standard part of post up offense and defense. There's also other stuff like players being allowed to initiate the contact aggressively with their behinds while boxing out.

What you're saying about how much easier it was to send a message back then is true. But this is not a sign of physicality to me, it's mostly just dirty plays. I'm not saying I enjoy or support completely how flagrant fouls are currently being officiated in NBA, but it's far better than allowing reckless fouling because you're unable to stop a certain player.