Change in Islamic radicalism needs to come from within. Wahabbism vs progressive

[poido123]

We need to rid the Islamic world of Wahabbist teachings and promote shia based Islam.


I can only describe governments of Saudi and Iran as inhuman pigs. Promoting woman oppression, sadistic public punishments and barbaric beheadings etc.


Most of the problems arise out of Sunni based sub groups within Islam. A strong majority of terrorists are Sunni, the Saudi Arabia Wahabbism which is cancering the world.


My friends from Iran who now live here in Australia got away from their Wahabbist style governments to live a progressive life here in Australia.


Can any of the Muslims here draw light on this? And why there's such a power struggle to fight progression?


Iran used to be ruled by progressive governments and the people used to wear open clothing and live a fruitful life. Now, they are controlled by a wahabbist government, they can no longer enjoy those freedoms anymore.


Can those who fight for progressive Islam step up and fight ISIS and this Wahabbist cancer?


Hopefully trump(when he gets in) sides with Shia based groups and allied russia and rids the world of Saudi based Islam.

[Derka]

At no point in its history has Iran been a Sunni nation. Any Wahhabi imam who tried to pull that shit in Tehran would find himself in prison getting the absolute f*ck tortured out of him.

Iran is wholly Shia. Hezbollah is a Shia militant group. Both of these entities hate...I'll repeat that...HATE...the Wahhabi and Salafist Islam movements.

Americans are worried about Iran using a bomb on us or Israel. The far more likely scenario is any bomb they make ending up in Riyadh. Not a single Shiite tear, no matter how secular or fundamentalist those eyes are, would be shed over the sudden and immediate deaths of the Wahhabi imams and the al-Saud family.

[NumberSix]

If some Eastern European country like Hungary or Romania ever becomes a major power..... The entire Middle East will be Christian within a century.

[fiddy]

If some Eastern European country like Hungary or Romania ever becomes a major power..... The entire Middle East will be Christian within a century.
Christianity is dead, wake up moron

[dunksby]

We need to rid the Islamic world of Wahabbist teachings and promote shia based Islam.


I can only describe governments of Saudi and Iran as inhuman pigs. Promoting woman oppression, sadistic public punishments and barbaric beheadings etc.


Most of the problems arise out of Sunni based sub groups within Islam. A strong majority of terrorists are Sunni, the Saudi Arabia Wahabbism which is cancering the world.


My friends from Iran who now live here in Australia got away from their Wahabbist style governments to live a progressive life here in Australia.


Can any of the Muslims here draw light on this? And why there's such a power struggle to fight progression?


Iran used to be ruled by progressive governments and the people used to wear open clothing and live a fruitful life. Now, they are controlled by a wahabbist government, they can no longer enjoy those freedoms anymore.


Can those who fight for progressive Islam step up and fight ISIS and this Wahabbist cancer?


Hopefully trump(when he gets in) sides with Shia based groups and allied russia and rids the world of Saudi based Islam.
Iran and Saudi Arabia couldn't be anymore different and opposite of each other, at least study the shit you want to hate.

[TheImmortal]

Dumb thread.
If some Eastern European country like Hungary or Romania ever becomes a major power..... The entire Middle East will be Christian within a century.
Explain?

[Dresta]

Well, it was my understanding, from my very sketchy knowledge of Islamic history, that the Shia were the breakaway, and they were the group who first suffered persecution from Sunni. Thus i don't know whether i was told or simply intuited that doctrinaire Sunni Islam is far worse and more restrictive than its Shia counterpart (e.g. compare Saudi Arabia with Iran), though the latter is still undoubtedly unpleasant to live under. But then i also remember Bertrand Russell writing something like 'the Arabs didn't take religion all that seriously' and that it took the Persians to fanaticise Islam and give it cultish features - so if someone could square this for me, that'd be great. Though it is very possible that old Bertie was simply chatting nonsense, as he is prone to do.


If some Eastern European country like Hungary or Romania ever becomes a major power..... The entire Middle East will be Christian within a century.
And Western Europe would probs be muslim.

That would be an interesting turn of events :oldlol:.

[D-Wade316]

Iran and Saudi Arabia couldn't be anymore different and opposite of each other, at least study the shit you want to hate.
Lol. Poido got wrecked by the first reply.

[fiddy]

Well, it was my understanding, from my very sketchy knowledge of Islamic history, that the Shia were the breakaway, and they were the group who first suffered persecution from Sunni. Thus i don't know whether i was told or simply intuited that doctrinaire Sunni Islam is far worse and more restrictive than its Shia counterpart (e.g. compare Saudi Arabia with Iran), though the latter is still undoubtedly unpleasant to live under. But then i also remember Bertrand Russell writing something like 'the Arabs didn't take religion all that seriously' and that it took the Persians to fanaticise Islam and give it cultish features - so if someone could square this for me, that'd be great. Though it is very possible that old Bertie was simply chatting nonsense, as he is prone to do.

I knew a guy that studied persian, and he told me that there tens (if not hundred) of teachings such as sunni and shia, but these ones just are the most popular and stuck through time

[Patrick Chewing]

The Muslim world desperately needs a worldwide Muslim Reformation movement.

Islam consumes most of their followers that they allow themselves the opportunity to be influenced heavily by radical elements within the religion. It must be reformed because at the current moment, we are being led to believe that the religion is inherently peaceful, which clearly it is not.

In the meantime, do not be fooled by someone who calls themselves a "moderate" Muslim, for all they are doing is brushing the issue under the rug and not facing the real issue.

[fiddy]

The Muslim world desperately needs a worldwide Muslim Reformation movement.

Islam consumes most of their followers that they allow themselves the opportunity to be influenced heavily by radical elements within the religion. It must be reformed because at the current moment, we are being led to believe that the religion is inherently peaceful, which clearly it is not.

In the meantime, do not be fooled by someone who calls themselves a "moderate" Muslim, for all they are doing is brushing the issue under the rug and not facing the real issue.
Id rather go for a quick fix, couple of nukes should reform them in no time, its quicker, less expensive and more effecient

[dunksby]

Well, it was my understanding, from my very sketchy knowledge of Islamic history, that the Shia were the breakaway, and they were the group who first suffered persecution from Sunni. Thus i don't know whether i was told or simply intuited that doctrinaire Sunni Islam is far worse and more restrictive than its Shia counterpart (e.g. compare Saudi Arabia with Iran), though the latter is still undoubtedly unpleasant to live under. But then i also remember Bertrand Russell writing something like 'the Arabs didn't take religion all that seriously' and that it took the Persians to fanaticise Islam and give it cultish features - so if someone could square this for me, that'd be great. Though it is very possible that old Bertie was simply chatting nonsense, as he is prone to do.


And Western Europe would probs be muslim.

That would be an interesting turn of events :oldlol:.
Persians are responsible mostly for the majority of the golden scientific age of Islam, Arabs who turned Muslim and started attacking their neighbours were famously desert dwelling savages who didn't have any respect for education and civilisation. Their accounts of rape and cold blooded murder of civilians and anyone who didn't say the words to convert to Islam is recorded by historians.
Shitte Islam was popularized in Iran after the Safavid dynasty united Iran after 400 years of Arab rule, they brought back Persian as the official language and tried to bring back the Iranian identity. The dynasty was the first Persian one since the Sassanids fall to the hands of Muslims, their religious roots is from the Sufi order and as natural enemies with the Ottomans and, Shitte Islam was encouraged over the Sunni one.

[Dresta]

Persians are responsible mostly for the majority of the golden scientific age of Islam, Arabs who turned Muslim and started attacking their neighbours were famously desert dwelling savages who didn't have any respect for education and civilisation. Their accounts of rape and cold blooded murder of civilians and anyone who didn't say the words to convert to Islam is recorded by historians.
Shitte Islam was popularized in Iran after the Safavid dynasty united Iran after 400 years of Arab rule, they brought back Persian as the official language and tried to bring back the Iranian identity. The dynasty was the first Persian one since the Sassanids fall to the hands of Muslims, their religious roots is from the Sufi order and as natural enemies with the Ottomans and, Shitte Islam was encouraged over the Sunni one.
So you're saying old Bertie was full of shit?

The more i find out the more it becomes clear that his History of Western Philosophy is steaming a pile of garbage, excepting the section on Leibniz.

[dunksby]

So you're saying old Bertie was full of shit?

The more i find out the more it becomes clear that his History of Western Philosophy is steaming a pile of garbage, excepting the section on Leibniz.
Persians have a long history of civilisation and culture dating back to 4000 BC, fanaticism and savagery is not what they are known for. Here is an excerpt about 5 Persian scholars during the Islamic golden age of science (their names are Arabic due to the Arab conquest):

Ibn Sina (Avicenna) b. 980 near Bukhara, d. 1037 Hamadan, Iran

One of most influential scientists and philosophers of the Islamic World, Ibn Sina is best known for his important contributions to the field of medicine. His seminal work Al-Qanun fi al-Tibb (The Canon of Medicine) is considered one of the most famous books in the history of medicine and set the standard for medical practice in Europe and the Islamic World through the 17th century.

Sībawayh b. ca. 760 Beyza, Iran, d. ca. 793 Shiraz, Iran

The greatest Arabic linguist and grammarian in history was in fact Persian. Sibawayh, a non-native speaker of Arabic, wrote the first book on Arabic grammar, Al-Kitāb fī an-Naḥw. This monumental work was central in setting the standard for explaining Arabic grammar, especially to non-Arab converts to Islam.

Al-Khwārazmī b. ca.780, d. ca. 850

This famous Persian mathematician is credited with introducing the decimal system to the Western world. A scholar in the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, Al-Khwarazmi’s work on linear and quadratic equations led to the later development of algebra, a term which stems from the title of one of his books. The word algorithm derives from the latinized form of his name Algoritmi.

Al-Rāzī (Rhazes) b. 854 Rey, Iran, d. 925 Rey, Iran

A celebrated polymath, Al-Razi, is considered to be the greatest physician of the Islamic World. He was the first to scientifically identify alcohol in its pure form and produce sulfuric acid. A prolific author, Al-Razi’s encyclopedic reviews of medicine, Al-Mansuri and Al-Hawi, were standard medical texts in European and Islamic universities.

Al-Ghazālī b. 1058 Tus, Iran, d. 1111 Tus, Iran

The 12th century philosopher, jurist and mystic Al-Ghazali, is regarded as one of the greatest theologians of Islam. His approach to reconciling reason and revelation had an important impact on medieval Christian and Jewish thinking. Known as a mujaddid, renewer of the faith, within Islam, Al-Ghazali’s influential writings made Sufism an acceptable part of orthodox Islam.
And this is a complete list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Persian_scientists_and_scholars

[poido123]

Iran and Saudi Arabia couldn't be anymore different and opposite of each other, at least study the shit you want to hate.


Are they really?


Post revolution, Iran changed to anti-Western theocracy. Although Saudi does share a relationship with the US(financially based), Saudi law is lightyears apart from Western society and aligns itself with Iran's anti-expression, anti freedom Islamic republic.


You have trouble with reading comprehension. I did make a specific point to similarities in government, not the people you dumb fck.

[Derka]

Are they really?
Yes, they really are. The governments, the people, the societies, the communities...they are completely different.

[Dresta]

Persians have a long history of civilisation and culture dating back to 4000 BC, fanaticism and savagery is not what they are known for. Here is an excerpt about 5 Persian scholars during the Islamic golden age of science (their names are Arabic due to the Arab conquest):

And this is a complete list:
That's not really true considering in the Greek periods they had Kings that had a kind of demi-God status. That kind of Oriental and slavish despotism that the Greeks so abhorred, and can only really be upheld by a fanatical spirit of devotion.

And there's a fair few ****ed up stories in Herodotus if i remember right - things like the King feeding some man bits of his son in a soup, and other horrors of that sort. But then again, the tyrants of Syracuse weren't exactly much better. They weren't tribal savages for sure, and certainly had an extensive civilisation, but they were still credulous barbarians when compared to the Greeks or Romans (for the most part).

[dunksby]

That's not really true considering in the Greek periods they had Kings that had a kind of demi-God status. That kind of Oriental and slavish despotism that the Greeks so abhorred, and can only really be upheld by a fanatical spirit of devotion.

And there's a fair few ****ed up stories in Herodotus if i remember right - things like the King feeding some man bits of his son in a soup, and other horrors of that sort. But then again, the tyrants of Syracuse weren't exactly much better. They weren't tribal savages for sure, and certainly had an extensive civilisation, but they were still credulous barbarians when compared to the Greeks or Romans (for the most part).
I don't pretend to be the voice of absolute truth, my knowledge is as restricted as the next guy to what I have studied and gathered, from what I know there is not a huge account of barbarism and fanaticism in relation to Persians.
PS: Don't put too much into Herodotus, he is very biased especially when writing stuff about Persians, I sense a lot of projection in his accounts.

[NumberSix]

That's not really true considering in the Greek periods they had Kings that had a kind of demi-God status. That kind of Oriental and slavish despotism that the Greeks so abhorred, and can only really be upheld by a fanatical spirit of devotion.

And there's a fair few ****ed up stories in Herodotus if i remember right - things like the King feeding some man bits of his son in a soup, and other horrors of that sort. But then again, the tyrants of Syracuse weren't exactly much better. They weren't tribal savages for sure, and certainly had an extensive civilisation, but they were still credulous barbarians when compared to the Greeks or Romans (for the most part).
This is actually central to defining "western civilization".

I've only met like 2 people in my entire life that knew this, but this is where the origin of the concept of "western civilization" comes from. The earth is a sphere, so "west" is relative, right? So west of what? "The west" was originally designated as being to the west of the Persian empire. That's why Greece is where "the west" begins.

[poido123]

Yes, they really are. The governments, the people, the societies, the communities...they are completely different.



So there's a huge difference in Islamic republic and the Saudi's? The Khomenei-ism as it is regarded has reformed the former Shia practices. Restrictions on freedom of expression, capital/barbaric punishments, etc all mirror much of Saudi government and ideology today.


What I'm saying is, the current governments share similarities in anti-western sentiment and democracy. Although Iran is closer to progression(they had a revolution away from progression) than the saudi people and its the people of Iran which I agree are very different to Saudi.


They are opposite Islamic sub groups, yet Shi'ite Islam in Iran has undergone a reform to a fundamentalist type dictatorship in government.

[LJJ]

Iran and Saudi Arabia couldn't be anymore different and opposite of each other, at least study the shit you want to hate.

This isn't true really. Calling Iran Wahhabi is ignorant, they belong to different Islamic sect and the Shia-Sunni struggle is one of the main reasons the ME is such a violent shithole.

But just because they disagree about a few imams and rules doesn't mean they are truly different and especially not that they are the opposite of each other. There are very few countries in the world more similar to Saudi-Arabia than Iran. They are both ultra-conservative and ultra-oppressive Islamic states, sponsors of terrorism and they are following largely the same rules and traditions. They just don't like each other.

[dunksby]

This isn't true really. Calling Iran Wahhabi is ignorant, they belong to different Islamic sect and the Shia-Sunni struggle is one of the main reasons the ME is such a violent shithole.

But just because they disagree about a few imams and rules doesn't mean they are truly different and especially not that they are the opposite of each other. There are very few countries in the world more similar to Saudi-Arabia than Iran. They are both ultra-conservative and ultra-oppressive Islamic states, sponsors of terrorism and they are following largely the same rules and traditions. They just don't like each other.
I know I'm playing the devil's advocate, I understand that both countries are run by fundamentalist Muslims, but the degree and intensity those two governments operate is just incomparable.