Ginobili vs Wade all time

[Lebronxrings]

who was better?

[SexSymbol]

Wade, by a terribly large margin.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Wade.

[zeerghit]

Wade, by a terribly large margin.
terribly large?
cmon man.. show some respect

[VengefulAngel]

terribly large?
cmon man.. show some respect

Dude what the **** are you talking about, this is not even bloody close. You know nothing about basketball.

[SexSymbol]

terribly large?
cmon man.. show some respect
I love Ginobili much more than most of the posters here.
Wade has had more success individually, twice as good stats and comparable sucess by team standards.
He literally has nothing on Wade, and is not even close in many ways.
Wade is a better offensive player, even better passer, he's a better defender, especially prime for prime.
Wade is a legit superstar, a top 3 player for like 4-5 years.

[VengefulAngel]

I love Ginobili much more than most of the posters here.
Wade has had more success individually, twice as good stats and comparable sucess by team standards.
He literally has nothing on Wade, and is not even close in many ways.
Wade is a better offensive player, even better passer, he's a better defender, especially prime for prime.
Wade is a legit superstar, a top 3 player for like 4-5 years.

I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with you lol.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Lebronxrings]

I love Ginobili much more than most of the posters here.
Wade has had more success individually, twice as good stats and comparable sucess by team standards.
He literally has nothing on Wade, and is not even close in many ways.
Wade is a better offensive player, even better passer, he's a better defender, especially prime for prime.
Wade is a legit superstar, a top 3 player for like 4-5 years.
manu is the better passer.

Also its not fair to compare stats since manus stats were restrcited from duncan ball. Gino is one of those guys whose impact goes beyond the box score.

[RRR3]

Wade, by a terribly large margin.
For once I agree with you.

[Legends66NBA7]

Manu had range over Wade. That's it.

Wade was always the better player.

[f0und]

big wade fan here, and while i choose wade, i think its alot closer than people think. ginobli is a winner at every level. euroleague, olympics, international, nba. he's on par with wade in many facets of the game. its just that while in the nba, he's never been the focal point of the team so its hard to judge. but when he plays internationally and he is the focal point, he always delivered. he even led argentina to gold in 04 and beat team USA on the way.

[Lebronxrings]

big wade fan here, and while i choose wade, i think its alot closer than people think. ginobli is a winner at every level. euroleague, olympics, international, nba. he's on par with wade in many facets of the game. its just that while in the nba, he's never been the focal point of the team so its hard to judge. but when he plays internationally and he is the focal point, he always delivered. he even led argentina to gold in 04 and beat team USA on the way.
yea this.


Thank god for objectively, so far every post in this thread is by wade stans.

[Straight_Ballin]

manu is the better passer.

Also its not fair to compare stats since manus stats were restrcited from duncan ball. Gino is one of those guys whose impact goes beyond the box score.

It does go beyond box score but Wade is the better player. There is absolutely no reason why any superstar should ever lose in the finals with Wade on their team. Just ask Shaq.

[JellyBean]

Ginobili was/is a great talent but Wade was/is better. D-Wade was better offensively and defensively. Wade was a better rebounder and passer. Steals, they are pretty even. But when it comes to blocking shots and being that lockdown defender, Wade was the best.

[Real14]

Both are better than Bron all time.

[Dragonyeuw]

Wade quite easily. Ginobli not being the focal point is neither here or there, what happened is what happened and we judge based on how their careers went, not on what might have been. Wade's prime and peak are quite clearly a few tiers above Ginobli.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Both are better than Bron all time.
All three are better than Melo.

[Lebronxrings]

Wade quite easily. Ginobli not being the focal point is neither here or there, what happened is what happened and we judge based on how their careers went, not on what might have been. Wade's prime and peak are quite clearly a few tiers above Ginobli.
Gino has been as much a focal point as wade. The year Gino won his mvp, he was more impactful than wade when he won with shaq. Gino beat team USA and playing team ball clearly restricted his play.

[derb2k2]

Ginobli.












http://res.cloudinary.com/urbandictionary/image/upload/a_exif,c_fit,h_200,w_200/v1395991705/gjn81wvxqsq6yzcwubok.png

[Dragonyeuw]

Gino has been as much a focal point as wade. The year Gino won his mvp, he was more impactful than wade when he won with shaq. Gino beat team USA and playing team ball clearly restricted his play.

What MVP?

[Segatti]

The year Gino won his mvp

What?

[Lebronxrings]

What MVP?
FMVP, sorry, sorry.

[DaOldLion]

FMVP, sorry, sorry.

although he deserved it in 05 he's never won FMVP

[Segatti]

FMVP, sorry, sorry.

He never won FMVP, what the **** you are talking about

[ClipperRevival]

Wade quite easily. Ginobli not being the focal point is neither here or there, what happened is what happened and we judge based on how their careers went, not on what might have been. Wade's prime and peak are quite clearly a few tiers above Ginobli.

This.

It's easy to play "what if" games with a great player like Gino but it takes much more energy and stamina to be "the man" and carry a team on your back offensively like Wade did. We don't know how he would've responded. Defenses never focused exclusively on Gino. They had to worry about Duncan and Parker. Not here to discredit Gino because he was a straight baller but just saying.

[Lebronxrings]

He never won FMVP, what the **** you are talking about
the year they beat team USA. He led his team and was clearly the best player

(I meant in fiba btw)

[Dragonyeuw]

FMVP, sorry, sorry.

Hasn't won that either. And no way in hell was he ever more a focal point of a championship run that Wade in 2006.

[Dragonyeuw]

the year they beat team USA. He led his team and was clearly the best player

(I meant in fiba btw)

I'll go on a limb and say most people here are comparing NBA careers. Ginobli is definitely a HOF player looking at the totality of his NBA/int'l career, but in terms of saying who's higher on the list in an NBA context? Not close. At all.

[SouBeachTalents]

The one LeBron has never won a title without

[Mass Debator]

Wade also showed dominance in Olympic games. Had a great college career too. Love Ginobili but he should be compared to the likes of his own teammate, Tony Parker.

[Cold soul]

Wade by large margin.

[HoopologyPhD]

Gino had better hair.

[$LakerGold]

I wouldn't say Wade was a better passer. HELL NO.

[ShawkFactory]

manu is the better passer.

Also its not fair to compare stats since manus stats were restrcited from duncan ball. Gino is one of those guys whose impact goes beyond the box score.
WTF is Duncan ball?

[Dresta]

Gino has been as much a focal point as wade. The year Gino won his mvp, he was more impactful than wade when he won with shaq. Gino beat team USA and playing team ball clearly restricted his play.
:roll:

whatta ****ing idiot

I don't think i've ever seen so many utterly absurd points crammed into so little space - that's quite a talent you've got.

[$LakerGold]

WTF is Duncan ball?
When their system was mainly built around Duncan.

[ArbitraryWater]

Ginobili was/is a great talent but Wade was/is better. D-Wade was better offensively and defensively. Wade was a better rebounder and passer. Steals, they are pretty even. But when it comes to blocking shots and being that lockdown defender, Wade was the best.

:facepalm :facepalm

[Nick Young]

Manu, by a wide margin.

[4 Inches]

Black man winning this

[PJR]

:facepalm :facepalm

Wade is better than Ginobli at every facet of the game except 3 point shooting. Debate your mother.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Manu is the better passer and I believe more crafty when finishing. Wade had circus shots, and was obviously better at converting around the rim, but Manu was completely unorthodox with his spontaneity. Dude was crazy like a fox.

Scoring, rebounding, defense and keeping teams on their heels? That's Wade; the better player.

[Rob123]

Wade, by a terribly large margin.


Hands down dumbest ****ing post I've ever read.

All time I'd have to go with Wade, yes. But it's ****ing close.

Wade was flash and that's what you kids like, I get it.

But to say ****ing Manu is terribly far behind Wade after 4 titles tons of International Titles and a freaking gold medal beating the U.S. team with Wade on it is absolutely retarded.

[Smoke117]

cringe.


Hands down dumbest ****ing post I've ever read.

All time I'd have to go with Wade, yes. But it's ****ing close.

Wade was flash and that's what you kids like, I get it.

But to say ****ing Manu is terribly far behind Wade after 4 titles tons of International Titles and a freaking gold medal beating the U.S. team with Wade on it is absolutely retarded.


No...it's really not.

[Kobe_6/8]

Wade by far. Wade was a superstar, Ginobili was a star.

[Lebronxrings]

Wade by far. Wade was a superstar, Ginobili was a star.
i like wade, but no he wasn't.

[To4]

Wade then Manu will come off the bench. Crunch time will be Manu and Wade

[WayOfWade]

Wade; I would post a longer comment, but I think all the comments so far make it unnecessary. And thanks Real14 for contributing to the conversation, keep up the good work

[PsychoBe]

nba wise yes wade has had a better career.

but internationally obviously that goes to ginobili.

[Smoke117]

i like wade, but no he wasn't.

This troll account is so lame...I'm surprised anyone even gave legit responses to it..."duncan ball" lmfao.

[WayOfWade]

i like wade, but no he wasn't.
Why wasn't he a superstar? What would you say he lacked?

[Lebronxrings]

ma mans up here think wade so much better than manu LOL

Put manu on the heat and they do just as well. No trolling 100% serious.

[WayOfWade]

ma mans up here think wade so much better than manu LOL

Put manu on the heat and they do just as well. No trolling 100% serious.
Your argument is compelling, please tell me more

[JohnFreeman]

Wade and it's not close.

[GrapeApe]

The Curry comparisons I understand, but Ginobli? Really? That's no disrespect toward Ginbobli, as he's had a fine career and is a future HOFer, but c'mon. Wade is a near concensus top 4 SG and top 20-25 player all-time. I've never heard anyone even entertain the idea that Ginobli is on that level.

[GrapeApe]

Why wasn't he a superstar? What would you say he lacked?

Did he really say Wade wasn't a superstar? Wade was a superstar in every imaginable way.

Amazing regular season stats. Check.
Amazing playoff stats. Check.
Amazing finals stats. Check.
Multiple titles. Check.
Multiple all-star, all-NBA, and all-defense selections. Check.
High marketability and popularity. Check.

He was also dominant on a global stage, leading team USA in scoring in the 2008 Olympics. Wade was the epitome of a superstar.

[Horatio33]

I'm a Spurs fan but the answer is Wade

[WayOfWade]

Did he really say Wade wasn't a superstar? Wade was a superstar in every imaginable way.

Amazing regular season stats. Check.
Amazing playoff stats. Check.
Amazing finals stats. Check.
Multiple titles. Check.
Multiple all-star, all-NBA, and all-defense selections. Check.
High marketability and popularity. Check.

He was also dominant on a global stage, leading team USA in scoring in the 2008 Olympics. Wade was the epitome of a superstar.
He did! That's why I asked him to at least somewhat defend his argument, but like a loser he just ran off

[Black and White]

Why do some of you bother to post in this obvious troll thread? People that know anything about basketball know that its Wade by a large margin.

If Manu was on Wade's level, he would have been the #1 option or 1a/1b on the Spurs for many years, that's a fact.

[sportjames23]

:roll:

whatta ****ing idiot

I don't think i've ever seen so many utterly absurd points crammed into so little space - that's quite a talent you've got.


Lebronxrings gettin absolutely murked in this thread. :oldlol:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

If Manu was on Wade's level, he would have been the #1 option or 1a/1b on the Spurs for many years, that's a fact.

:facepalm

[Smoke117]

:facepalm

You can't possibly think Duncan is a better scorer than Wade in their primes?

[Black and White]

:facepalm

Prime/Peak Wade wouldn't at least be 1a/1b to Duncan?

[dhsilv]

I love Ginobili much more than most of the posters here.
Wade has had more success individually, twice as good stats and comparable sucess by team standards.
He literally has nothing on Wade, and is not even close in many ways.
Wade is a better offensive player, even better passer, he's a better defender, especially prime for prime.
Wade is a legit superstar, a top 3 player for like 4-5 years.

ok, I'm going to go through the numbers and workout my thoughts beyond just raw feelings here, but Manu is the better passer. Manu is on the stockton, magic level of passers in basketball. He is an absolute all time great.

Him and wade is a weird one, so I have to think about how to compare them. Raw I think wade wins this by a mile but basketball is way more complex than that.

[Smoke117]

ok, I'm going to go through the numbers and workout my thoughts beyond just raw feelings here, but Manu is the better passer. Manu is on the stockton, magic level of passers in basketball. He is an absolute all time great.

Him and wade is a weird one, so I have to think about how to compare them. Raw I think wade wins this by a mile but basketball is way more complex than that.

:biggums: Now you are just insulting Magic and Stock.

[oarabbus]

Wade is better, but it isn't lightyears apart. On paper Wade is straight up on another level but in real life that's not the case. Ginobili is possibly one of the most underrated players of all time.

[dhsilv]

The Curry comparisons I understand, but Ginobli? Really? That's no disrespect toward Ginbobli, as he's had a fine career and is a future HOFer, but c'mon. Wade is a near concensus top 4 SG and top 20-25 player all-time. I've never heard anyone even entertain the idea that Ginobli is on that level.

At their primes Manu was Kobe with 10 less minutes played. It is worth keeping that in mind, all be it manu was a bit better than kobe per minute. The issue with Manu is if we should value minutes or seasons. Per minute Manu is better than Kobe. Wade is as well or at least peaked better.

It's complex to get beyond that simple easy to do math and say better totally.

Now from entertainment stand points, I'm not sure anyone outside of Jordan was more fun to watch at the 2 guard. Kobe being the closest and wade being a step behind both.

[dhsilv]

Why do some of you bother to post in this obvious troll thread? People that know anything about basketball know that its Wade by a large margin.

If Manu was on Wade's level, he would have been the #1 option or 1a/1b on the Spurs for many years, that's a fact.

options are related to offense only though right? Do you even know how basketball works?

[dhsilv]

You can't possibly think Duncan is a better scorer than Wade in their primes?

wade never lead the league in offensive win share or field goals made..and he was on a faster pace team league adjusted than Duncan in his prime. So why would one not think that?

[dhsilv]

:biggums: Now you are just insulting Magic and Stock.

Manu is the best passer I've never seen. His gambling and risk taking however imo is too high which is why I LOWERED him to their standard. I've just never seen anyone who could pass like Manu. That guy's knick name of being the magician is full deserved.

[Milbuck]

At their primes Manu was Kobe with 10 less minutes played. It is worth keeping that in mind, all be it manu was a bit better than kobe per minute. The issue with Manu is if we should value minutes or seasons. Per minute Manu is better than Kobe. Wade is as well or at least peaked better.

It's complex to get beyond that simple easy to do math and say better totally.

Now from entertainment stand points, I'm not sure anyone outside of Jordan was more fun to watch at the 2 guard. Kobe being the closest and wade being a step behind both.
One of the most dumbest things said on here.

Manu at no point in his career was ever as good as Kobe or Wade. Not by per minute, per second, per strand of hair, per shit taken. He was fantastic and his raw numbers don't do him justice, but to suggest that the only thing separating him and Kobe was minutes is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on here.

[mehyaM24]

ok, I'm going to go through the numbers and workout my thoughts beyond just raw feelings here, but Manu is the better passer. Manu is on the stockton, magic level of passers in basketball. He is an absolute all time great.

no he's not.

he might have "nice passes", but he is not on the level of a passer or at controlling the pace and offense of a team with said passing.


Him and wade is a weird one, so I have to think about how to compare them. Raw I think wade wins this by a mile but basketball is way more complex than that.

wade is better than ginobili.

there's nothing to think about. hypotheticals and what-ifs simply bear no fruit.

[dhsilv]

One of the most dumbest things said on here.

Manu at no point in his career was ever as good as Kobe or Wade. Not by per minute, per second, per strand of hair, per shit taken. He was fantastic and his raw numbers don't do him justice, but to suggest that the only thing separating him and Kobe was minutes is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on here.

So you don't know anything about what you're talking. Thanks for posting useless dribble. If you want to counter well know facts you might try supporting your thinking.

[mehyaM24]

So you don't know anything about what you're talking. Thanks for posting useless dribble. If you want to counter well know facts you might try supporting your thinking.

"useless dribble"

lmfao

[dhsilv]

no he's not.

he might have "nice passes", but he is not on the level of a passer or at controlling the pace and offense of a team with said passing.



wade is better than ginobili.

there's nothing to think about. hypotheticals and what-ifs simply bear no fruit.

The bold is correct. Manu was not as good at controlling the pace and offense, but that is NOT passing. That is a far more complex and important skill set. One Manu is an all time great at, but not at Magic's level and while close I'd say a hair under Stockton. Now he's MUCH better at it than Wade.

[Milbuck]

So you don't know anything about what you're talking. Thanks for posting useless dribble. If you want to counter well know facts you might try supporting your thinking.
You literally just said the only thing separating Ginobili from prime Kobe f*cking Bryant is minutes, and I'm the one posting useless "dribble".

Your opinion on here is absolutely worthless.

[Jacks3]

At their primes Manu was Kobe with 10 less minutes played. It is worth keeping that in mind, all be it manu was a bit better than kobe per minute. The issue with Manu is if we should value minutes or seasons. Per minute Manu is better than Kobe. Wade is as well or at least peaked better.

It's complex to get beyond that simple easy to do math and say better totally.

Now from entertainment stand points, I'm not sure anyone outside of Jordan was more fun to watch at the 2 guard. Kobe being the closest and wade being a step behind both.

His per-minute production probably takes a hit if he's playing more 10 more min a a game and is the clear #1. On the other hand, what the hell kind of "per-minute" production is prime Bryant putting up if he's only playing 28-30 min a night and in the perfect lineups? Imagine 2007 Kobe in such a role. :oldlol:

Your logic is hilariously dumb. Manu isn't even in the same universe as Bryant.

[dhsilv]

You literally just said the only thing separating Ginobili from prime Kobe f*cking Bryant is minutes, and I'm the one posting useless "dribble".

Your opinion on here is absolutely worthless.

Why do you disagree? Do you not have anything to counter my statement?

[dhsilv]

His per-minute production probably takes a hit if he's playing more 10 more min a a game and is the clear #1. On the other hand, what the hell kind of "per-minute" production is prime Bryant putting up if he's only playing 28-30 min a night and in the perfect lineups? Imagine 2007 Kobe in such a role. :oldlol:

Your logic is hilariously dumb. Manu isn't even in the same universe as Bryant.

That's all hypothetical. BTW I didn't say Manu was better than Kobe. I was pretty clear on the per minute and for good reason. Mostly I don't want to argue over silly concepts and mostly because what I'm saying is perfectly reasonable.

[Milbuck]

Why do you disagree? Do you not have anything to counter my statement?
I disagree because it's a really f*cking stupid statement. If I have to actually spell it out for you you're not worth the discussion.

[dhsilv]

I disagree because it's a really f*cking stupid statement. If I have to actually spell it out for you you're not worth the discussion.

So you admit you're not smart enough to write out something of value? Just admit it. I'll laugh at you a bit, but it'll be ok. I will not think any worse of you than I already do.

[aj1987]

At their primes Manu was Kobe with 10 less minutes played. It is worth keeping that in mind, all be it manu was a bit better than kobe per minute. The issue with Manu is if we should value minutes or seasons. Per minute Manu is better than Kobe. Wade is as well or at least peaked better.

It's complex to get beyond that simple easy to do math and say better totally.

Now from entertainment stand points, I'm not sure anyone outside of Jordan was more fun to watch at the 2 guard. Kobe being the closest and wade being a step behind both.
Even if Manu played 15 more minutes, he was never the scorer Kobe was and a much worse defender. Even per 36, Manu averages 19/5/5. Wade is at 24/5/6.

Wade >>>>>>>> Manu at every facet of the game (except 3pt shooting) and it's not even close.

[Smoke117]

The discussion here has turned hostile. ;o

[masonanddixon]

Ginobli.
Much better defender, the better passer, and far more clutch. Outside of the 2005-2006 playoffs nonsense Wade has been pretty average in big games.

[Smoke117]

Ginobli.
Much better defender, the better passer, and far more clutch. Outside of the 2005-2006 playoffs nonsense Wade has been pretty average in big games.


And now he's basically 34 and Dragic plays 2nd fiddle to him...must sting, eh?

[GrapeApe]

I agree that Ginobli is tricky to rank because he's a better player than his numbers suggest, but at the end of the day he just doesn't have the raw production to be compared to guys like Wade and Kobe. It's unfair to compare him to players who had to log heavy minutes on a nightly basis and carry their teams (and were successful doing so).

The fact that Ginobli has never been a high minute player and never been a clear cut 1st option limits his ceiling in terms of all-time ranking. He's very skilled and very productive on a per-minute basis, but the total production just isn't there. Could Ginobli have produced at a higher level if given the opportunity? Possibly, but it's equally possible that he wouldn't be nearly as effective in a heavy minute, 1st option role.

[masonanddixon]

And now he's basically 34 and Dragic plays 2nd fiddle to him...must sting, eh?

Wade is great, no doubt, but he's getting overrated as **** in this thread.

It's fine if you prefer him to Ginobli but to act like he's significantly better is absurd. I've seen Ginobli against my squad four to eleven times a season; Wade once twice a season; I know what Ginobli has done to my Mavs.

For me it comes down to preference.

Ginobli would have duplicated Wade's stats in the East, and he probably outplayed Wade in those cumulative Finals, though both players were subpar and well past their primes.

[Smoke117]

Wade is great, no doubt, but he's getting overrated as **** in this thread.

It's fine if you prefer him to Ginobli but to act like he's significantly better is absurd. I've seen Ginobli against my squad four to eleven times a season; Wade once twice a season; I know what Ginobli has done to my Mavs.

For me it comes down to preference.

Ginobli would have duplicated Wade's stats in the East, and he probably outplayed Wade in those cumulative Finals, though both players were subpar and well past their primes.

There is absolutely no argument any level-headed and knowledgable basketball fan can make that Ginobili is a greater player than Wade...NONE.

[masonanddixon]

It's also important to note that Wade was widely regarded as a subpar defensive player up until The Big Three Era when he suddenly became an elite defensive player as per the media, whereas Ginobli has always been an absolutely elite defender.

[masonanddixon]

There is absolutely no argument any level-headed and knowledgable basketball fan can make that Ginobili is a greater player than Wade...NONE.

lol Wade was irrelevant for like four seasons before the Big 3.

It's fine if you prefer him but many fans who actually were old enough to watch them both in their primes can attest to the fact that they are evenly matched players.

[Smoke117]

It's also important to note that Wade was widely regarded as a subpar defensive player up until The Big Three Era when he suddenly became an elite defensive player as per the media, whereas Ginobli has always been an absolutely elite defender.

WTF? You could legit say Wade was THE BEST defensive sg in the league in 2009 and 2010 BEFORE THE BIG THREE ERA. He was 2nd team all defensive team both seasons (when he should have been first) and 3rd in DPOY in 2009. I don't remember what it was, but I know for sure in 2009 opposing sg's shot worse vs wade than any other player in the league. It was by a big margin too. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about when you disregard Wade's two best defensive seasons and say he was regarded as a "subpar defensive player up until the big three era". You don't know what you are talking about anyway since wade was always a good defensive player before 2009 except for that 2008 season when he was dealing with an injury.


lol Wade was irrelevant for like four seasons before the Big 3.

It's fine if you prefer him but many fans who actually were old enough to watch them both in their primes can attest to the fact that they are evenly matched players.

...yeah, I watched both their entire careers and Wade is a greater player, period. End of discussion. What the hell do you know anyway? You think Dragic is a better player than Bledsoe. You have no credibility and are one of the biggest clowns on ish.

[GrapeApe]

It's also important to note that Wade was widely regarded as a subpar defensive player up until The Big Three Era when he suddenly became an elite defensive player as per the media, whereas Ginobli has always been an absolutely elite defender.

Wade made 3 all-defense teams before 2011 and finished 3rd in DPOY in 2009.

[masonanddixon]

Wade was never a good defensive player. I don't care what the media awards him. Just like Lebron has NEVER been a good defensive player.

Ask any player in the NBA, they will say Manu is the tougher defender.

[Smoke117]

Wade was never a good defensive player. I don't care what the media awards him. Just like Lebron has NEVER been a good defensive player.

Ask any player in the NBA, they will say Manu is the tougher defender.

You should have just said that in the first place...then I could have just called you an idiot and moved on. You made me type all that shit for nothing.

[Black and White]

options are related to offense only though right? Do you even know how basketball works?

Replace Ginobili with peak Wade, do the Spurs get better or worse? Would Wade be coming off the bench at any point? or be a 2nd or 3rd option?

[GrapeApe]

Wade was never a good defensive player. I don't care what the media awards him. Just like Lebron has NEVER been a good defensive player.

Ask any player in the NBA, they will say Manu is the tougher defender.

Almost everything you say is wrong. It's remarkable.

Also, do you talk to NBA players on a regular basis? Do you know that all-defense teams aren't voted on by the media?

[derb2k2]

lol Wade was irrelevant for like four seasons before the Big 3.

It's fine if you prefer him but many fans who actually were old enough to watch them both in their primes can attest to the fact that they are evenly matched players.


atleast try to add some valid points in there to mask the trolling. Jesus.:biggums:

[Dresta]

Wade was never a good defensive player. I don't care what the media awards him. Just like Lebron has NEVER been a good defensive player.

Ask any player in the NBA, they will say Manu is the tougher defender.
Rubbish - when locked in Wade was better on the perimeter, better defending one on one, and much, much better at protecting the rim, getting clutch blocks & steals, and so on.

The biggest problem Wade always had defensively was staying with shooters, particularly guys like Ray Allen who spend the whole game running around screens.

I clearly don't like Lebron very much either, but to say he has never been a good defensive players is outright idiotic. How exactly did Miami destroy team after team with their suffocating perimeter defense, if Lebron and Wade (the two most important components of that) were 'never good defensive players.'

[dhsilv]

Even if Manu played 15 more minutes, he was never the scorer Kobe was and a much worse defender. Even per 36, Manu averages 19/5/5. Wade is at 24/5/6.

Wade >>>>>>>> Manu at every facet of the game (except 3pt shooting) and it's not even close.

Manu's career defensive rating is 100 vs Kobe at 105. Manu's career defensive winshare is 42.1 vs Kobe's 50.3 but Manu has played 23,885 less minutes. Or if I were to scale up Manu's defensive winshare to Kobe's he'd have a winshare of 84.77. DBPM career is 1.3 Manu vs -0.5 for Kobe.

Basketball is about your team out scoring your opponent. You can go pull the RAPM stats for Manu and he'll compare favorably with anyone at his peak.

[dhsilv]

It's also important to note that Wade was widely regarded as a subpar defensive player up until The Big Three Era when he suddenly became an elite defensive player as per the media, whereas Ginobli has always been an absolutely elite defender.

I dunno about that, I recall a lot of sport center deal on how he's one of the all time great shot blocking guards. Not really fair to call that defense but he was certainly considered a great defender for his role. This was back when shaq was on the team.

[dhsilv]

Wade was never a good defensive player. I don't care what the media awards him. Just like Lebron has NEVER been a good defensive player.

Ask any player in the NBA, they will say Manu is the tougher defender.

The hell? You know you can hate a guy's game and still give credit where credit is due?

[masonanddixon]

I dunno about that, I recall a lot of sport center deal on how he's one of the all time great shot blocking guards. Not really fair to call that defense but he was certainly considered a great defender for his role. This was back when shaq was on the team.

He is certainly an incredible shot blocking guard but thats not what I want out of my 2 guard. I want someone who can effectively guard on the ball, and he's never been good at that.

[dhsilv]

Replace Ginobili with peak Wade, do the Spurs get better or worse? Would Wade be coming off the bench at any point? or be a 2nd or 3rd option?

Wade was the first option offensively for the Spurs in his prime.

I'm not really sure how wade fits or doesn't fit into the spurs. Manu much like Duncan is an all time great when it comes to his ability to adapt to the system and be flexable. Those kinds of skills are hard to value or compare. This is why I'm really not sure who was actually better between the two.

[wigwan]

Replace Ginobili with peak Wade, do the Spurs get better or worse? Would Wade be coming off the bench at any point? or be a 2nd or 3rd option?

Replace Ginobili with Wade in the 04 Olympics, does Argentina win gold?

[mehyaM24]

Manu's career defensive rating is 100 vs Kobe at 105. Manu's career defensive winshare is 42.1 vs Kobe's 50.3 but Manu has played 23,885 less minutes. Or if I were to scale up Manu's defensive winshare to Kobe's he'd have a winshare of 84.77. DBPM career is 1.3 Manu vs -0.5 for Kobe.

manu is very underrated - but this isn't why.

winshares? bpm? box score numbers that don't adjust for lineups, opponents, and teammates?

you're using raw numbers infused with team ones - hence, they're crap

rapm is nice though (remedies all the stuff i mentioned above). i don't have the swagr numbers for kobe's prime years outside of 2008-2010, but generally speaking, wade and kobe have been higher impact players adjusted for minutes.

manu's rapm has always been impressive - but again, neither on the level of wade or string bean's.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2008-rapm/
http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/
http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2010-rapm/

[Mass Debator]

Wade has tremendous defensive IQ. He's not going to lock anyone up step by step but he's going to challenge every shot. Even if he gets beat, he has explosive recovery speed and great length to just invade your zone when it's least expected. Also with efficient movements, he doesn't have to work as hard to get where he needs to be which saves him for offense.

Ginobili has a more traditional style of defense. Great IQ as well, but he uses hard work and active/quick hand movements to create havoc.

Both are gamblers. None better than the other. Wade is better at clogging the lane off-ball. Ginobili is better at shadowing you to traffic on-ball.

[WadeStan]

Wade was the first option offensively for the Spurs in his prime.

I'm not really sure how wade fits or doesn't fit into the spurs. Manu much like Duncan is an all time great when it comes to his ability to adapt to the system and be flexable. Those kinds of skills are hard to value or compare. This is why I'm really not sure who was actually better between the two.

Yawn... Wade has adapted at least 4 times in his career. As "The Man" from pretty much his rookie season til the end of last decade. As co-Alpha in 2010-2011. As second option from 2012 to 2014, moving w/o the ball and tapping into the elite cutting game he always had all the while working within a system that privileged and was built around Lebron.... to the grown man game he's working now in the post and mid range.

[WadeStan]

I agree that Ginobli is tricky to rank because he's a better player than his numbers suggest, but at the end of the day he just doesn't have the raw production to be compared to guys like Wade and Kobe. It's unfair to compare him to players who had to log heavy minutes on a nightly basis and carry their teams (and were successful doing so).

The fact that Ginobli has never been a high minute player and never been a clear cut 1st option limits his ceiling in terms of all-time ranking. He's very skilled and very productive on a per-minute basis, but the total production just isn't there. Could Ginobli have produced at a higher level if given the opportunity? Possibly, but it's equally possible that he wouldn't be nearly as effective in a heavy minute, 1st option role.

Yep particularly with the gambles Ginobili has always been known to make, threading the needle with risky passes, etc... As a volume player it's possible he has more turnovers and a lower FG%. On some level, it's easy to come in and be that risky sparkplug, but doing it night in and night out is a different beast.

[dubeta]

I'm probably one of the biggest Wade fans on this site, outside of Wade'sRings* and GrapeApe, however I probably have to go with Ginobli.


Compare Ginobli's Finals performance after the age of 25, with Wade's after the age of 25 :confusedshrug:

Its not that close tbh, plus Wade only gets better stats because of the role Ginobli had to play off the bench for his team, he wasnt getting 20 shots and 10 FT's a game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm probably one of the biggest Wade fans on this site, outside of Wade'sRings* and GrapeApe, however I probably have to go with Ginobli.


Compare Ginobli's Finals performance after the age of 25, with Wade's after the age of 25 :confusedshrug:

Its not that close tbh, plus Wade only gets better stats because of the role Ginobli had to play off the bench for his team, he wasnt getting 20 shots and 10 FT's a game.

Interesting.

Who's "Ginobli" by the way?

[sd3035]

obviously Wade

2/10 troll job :lol

[dhsilv]

manu is very underrated - but this isn't why.

winshares? bpm? box score numbers that don't adjust for lineups, opponents, and teammates?

you're using raw numbers infused with team ones - hence, they're crap

rapm is nice though (remedies all the stuff i mentioned above). i don't have the swagr numbers for kobe's prime years outside of 2008-2010, but generally speaking, wade and kobe have been higher impact players adjusted for minutes.

manu's rapm has always been impressive - but again, neither on the level of wade or string bean's.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2008-rapm/
http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2009-rapm/
http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2010-rapm/

Well why would I use real advanced stats when kobe fans only like box score numbers?

xRAMP per 100 91-14

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/xrapm-per-100-91-14

97-14 RAPM

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

RAPM 2007

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2007-rapm

RAPM 2006

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2006-rapm

RAPM 2005

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2005-rapm

RAPM 2004

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2004-rapm

RAPM 06-11

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/6-year-rapm

If you're just looking at RAPM Manu had a better career than both. Clearly you can't just look at RAPM for a million reasons but if you're going to use it...well Manu wins.

[dhsilv]

Yawn... Wade has adapted at least 4 times in his career. As "The Man" from pretty much his rookie season til the end of last decade. As co-Alpha in 2010-2011. As second option from 2012 to 2014, moving w/o the ball and tapping into the elite cutting game he always had all the while working within a system that privileged and was built around Lebron.... to the grown man game he's working now in the post and mid range.

Wade in one of the 25 or 50 best players of all time. Of course he's been able to adapt. He does not have the basketball IQ of Manu who is on the short list of smarting basketball players to ever live. He's in the discussion as the greatest of all time in that regard.

Remember when someone gives credit to one player, it is NOT an attack on the other player.

[VengefulAngel]

why has thread gone on for so long?

[dhsilv]

Yep particularly with the gambles Ginobili has always been known to make, threading the needle with risky passes, etc... As a volume player it's possible he has more turnovers and a lower FG%. On some level, it's easy to come in and be that risky sparkplug, but doing it night in and night out is a different beast.

I don't disagree with you here. Manu does do some crazy risky things and much like a Brett Favre, you kinda gotta think if you're ok with those things. I think the net impact was clearly favorable, the stats back it up, but I certainly agree that maybe it doesn't work if he's playing 35+ minutes a night. That's why this question is a good one.

[90sgoat]

Both are two of my favorite players and guards, even though Wade can be dirty and flopping sometimes.

Manu is maybe the most versatile of guards ever outside MJ and Magic. Manu's passing ability is umatched by shooting guards, he might be the best passing shooting guard of all time. His drives to the basket, particularly in his prime are also elite.

Wade has the most young MJ game of all subsequent guards. Elite post, elite mid range, elite drives, strong D.

I'm going to take Wade in the end though, but it's close peak wise.

[dhsilv]

Both are two of my favorite players and guards, even though Wade can be dirty and flopping sometimes.

Manu is maybe the most versatile of guards ever outside MJ and Magic. Manu's passing ability is umatched by shooting guards, he might be the best passing shooting guard of all time. His drives to the basket, particularly in his prime are also elite.

Wade has the most young MJ game of all subsequent guards. Elite post, elite mid range, elite drives, strong D.

I'm going to take Wade in the end though, but it's close peak wise.

This is one of the best posts in this thread and it comes from a grumpy old man!

[Rob123]

cringe.




No...it's really not.

Yes... It really is. You suffer from a lack of brain power.

[FireDavidKahn]

People need to stop trying to talk about what if vs what happened.

Wade is so much better than Ginobili when talking their career's. I'd rather have Manu though if that makes any difference/.

[SexSymbol]

People need to stop pretending that Ginobili is an amazing passer, because of some flashy highlight passes that he makes.
The biggest problem with his passing, and I've noticed this wayyy back in the day when Lithuania's NT was going up against Argentina's NT in olympics is that he routinely makes a ****ton of stupid passes. Some go through and become amazing highlights, creating his reputations as a passer, but he's honestly had some of the worst passes ever.
He's not a bad passer, but to pretend he's above the category of average to good is just admitting you don't watch him play regularly

[dhsilv]

People need to stop trying to talk about what if vs what happened.

Wade is so much better than Ginobili when talking their career's. I'd rather have Manu though if that makes any difference/.

Are we talking about career or as basketball players?

[dhsilv]

People need to stop pretending that Ginobili is an amazing passer, because of some flashy highlight passes that he makes.
The biggest problem with his passing, and I've noticed this wayyy back in the day when Lithuania's NT was going up against Argentina's NT in olympics is that he routinely makes a ****ton of stupid passes. Some go through and become amazing highlights, creating his reputations as a passer, but he's honestly had some of the worst passes ever.
He's not a bad passer, but to pretend he's above the category of average to good is just admitting you don't watch him play regularly

Over 25% assist percentage. His turnover percentage is a bit high but 14.7% isn't insanity. Mark Jackson is an all time great and he's around 20%....

[atljonesbro]

Wade by a MASSIVE margin. Manu is the hipster hero because he doesn't put up te bulky stats. People who would even put manu in the same breath as Wade are only saying this because they think it would make them sound smart. They are expecting our reactions to be something like "Wow he thinks MANU is better than WADE??? Oh my god what is he seeing that I'm not he must know his stuff!!!".