LeBron and MJ are at the top for most advanced stats

[Fire Colangelo]

The GOAT and the Chosen One :bowdown:

Regular Season:

PER:
1. MJ 27.91
2. LeBron 27.65

21. Kobe 23.06

Career WS:
4. MJ 214.02
11. LeBron 182.91 (probably will finish top 3)

18. Kobe 172.60

Career WS/48:
1. MJ 0.2505
6. LeBron 0.2398


51. Kobe 0.1745

Career BPM:
1. LeBron 9.19
2. MJ 9.09


31. Kobe 4.02

Career VORP:
1. MJ 104.44
2. LeBron 103.26

16. Kobe 71.99

Playoffs:

PER:
1. MJ 28.6
3. LeBron 27.43

22. Kobe 22.40

WS:
1. MJ 39.76
3. LeBron 36.89
8. Kobe 28.26

WS/48:
1. MJ 0.2553
3. LeBron 0.2342



53. Kobe 0.1570

BPM:
1. LeBron 10.43
2. MJ 10.12


39. Kobe 4.41

VORP:
1. LeBron 23.69
2. MJ 22.85

8. Kobe 13.99

2/6 or not, LeBron must be doing something right to be in the conversation as the GOAT in all these stats. :bowdown: :bowdown:

[ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq is still 2nd best in terms of playoff PER.

Playoff PER
---------
Lebron : 27.4 --- (his entire 10 year playoff career)
Shaq : 28.3 --- (best consecutive 10 year playoff stretch)

:pimp:
Jordan, Shaq & Bron are the 3 PER Kings though.
3 Kings to rule them all.

PER is as always the ultimate stat and the only one that really matters.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron & Jordan are the only players to be top 10 in regular season & postseason PER, WS, BPM, & VORP, are top 5 in 7/8 of the categories, and are top 2 in 5/8. You can dismiss advanced stats, but that is damn impressive

[Fire Colangelo]

LeBron & Jordan are the only players to be top 10 in regular season & postseason PER, WS, BPM, & VORP, are top 5 in 7/8 of the categories, and are top 2 in 5/8. You can dismiss advanced stats, but that is damn impressive

You can dismiss single advanced stats IMO, but not all of them combined. Sure there's gonna be outliers here and there as with all statistics, but this is pretty impressive.

[f0und]

you should go all the way and post finals stats

[Fire Colangelo]

you should go all the way and post finals stats

Why just finals and not the entire playoffs?

[SouBeachTalents]

you should go all the way and post finals stats

LeBron's Finals stats are better than Bird's & Kobe's, and in terms of perimeter players only Jordan, West, and Magic were better career Finals performers

[dubeta]

LeBron's Finals stats are better than Bird's & Kobe's, and in terms of perimeter players only Jordan, West, and Magic were better career Finals performers

LeBrons first 2 finals dont count since he was too young in the first one, and wasnt given the offense in the 2nd one

So take his first 2 finals away:





Finals Average: 29.5 ppg 11 rebounds 6.75 assists on 46.7% shooting :applause: :bowdown:


imo thats clearly better than West and Magic

[StephHamann]

Advanced stats :

Kobe 5/7

LeBron 2/6

[f0und]

Why just finals and not the entire playoffs?

because the finals is almost an entirely different stage

[Fire Colangelo]

Advanced stats :

Kobe 5/7

LeBron 2/6

If that's as far as your brain goes in terms of advance stats.... so be it lol.

[Fire Colangelo]

because the finals is almost an entirely different stage

Aside from 2007 and 2011, LeBron has be tremendous in his other 4 finals appearances.

[Straight_Ballin]

What good is advance stats if you can't back it up and choke in finals? :confusedshrug: Jordan give not a fvck about his advanced stats. He cares about those six rings.

Never put Bron in the same tier as Jordan. It's disrespectful.

http://static.vibe.com/files/photo_gallery_images/Michael-Jordan-Championship-Rings.jpg

[knicksman]

except jordan never cared about stats. He played off the ball thus sacrificing stats while bran didnt and thus 2/6

[Fire Colangelo]

holy shit Jordan stans are so insecure.

[ISHGoat]

You can dismiss single advanced stats IMO, but not all of them combined. Sure there's gonna be outliers here and there as with all statistics, but this is pretty impressive.
:applause:

Finally, someone that gets it.

[feyki]

Shaq is still 2nd best in terms of playoff PER.

Playoff PER
---------
Lebron : 27.4 --- (his entire 10 year playoff career)
Shaq : 28.3 --- (best consecutive 10 year playoff stretch)

:pimp:
Jordan, Shaq & Bron are the 3 PER Kings though.
3 Kings to rule them all.

PER is as always the ultimate stat and the only one that really matters.

:oldlol: :oldlol: . For What? Ball hogging ? Of Course :oldlol: :oldlol:

[stalkerforlife]

28.2 points, 5.3 assists, 3.1 rebounds, 43% from field, 38% from 3 on 4 shots a game, 86% from FT line with 6 attempts a game in 2013.

What's the PER?

STFU.

[dhsilv]

except jordan never cared about stats. He played off the ball thus sacrificing stats while bran didnt and thus 2/6

That is BS beyond words! MJ cared as much as anyone EVER about his stats.

[3ball]

Someone should post their regular stats

[Straight_Ballin]

Why does Lebron have to not play by the rules to come close to MJ for advanced stats? Is the NBA that insecure about someone like Bron being that much of a joke compared to MJ such that they fear they will lose viewers unless they allow him to have an unfair advantage? Anyone can put up good numbers if they don't play the game according to the rules. Bron travels non stop to get his.:sleeping Thank goodness we've moved on from that at can now watch the new face of the NBA. A guy who shoots plenty of 3's since no one is allowed to touch him or play anything even remotely resembling defense on him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptH0DyiomvE

Still waiting on that MJ flop video....

[VengefulAngel]

Why does Lebron have to not play by the rules to come close to MJ for advanced stats? Is the NBA that insecure about someone like Bron being that much of a joke compared to MJ such that they fear they will lose viewers unless they allow the star player to have an unfair advantage? Anyone can put up good numbers if they don't play the game according to the rules. Bron travels non stop to get his.:sleeping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptH0DyiomvE

Still waiting on that MJ flop video....

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

IQ of a snail.

[fiddy]

Putting Bran in the same sentence as MJ is disgraceful

[VengefulAngel]

Putting Bran in the same sentence as MJ is disgraceful

How so, isn't he simply reporting that MJ and Lebron are a top of the some advanced statistical measurements, we can differ in how much weighting we put on those stats. I don't understand the hate towards the OP.

Plus, none of these stat's show that Lebron is better then MJ so I don't know why 3ball is in this thread copying the same text we've seen countless times.

I would understand if you think the OP has selected certain stats but is neglecting others in order to perpetuate his own agenda.

[3ball]

Plus, none of these stat's show that Lebron is better then MJ so I don't know why 3ball is in this thread copying the same text we've seen countless times.


Exactly - out of all the advanced stats that OP posted, Jordan is ahead of Lebron in almost all of them.

It's just like another poster said - one stat might be an anomaly - but when nearly all the advanced stats show MJ ahead, then he isn't just a little better - he's A LOT better.

MJ's significant advantage over Lebron is demonstrated by the point I made previously:

show me where a #1 option scored 5-10 more ppg on better efficiency and WASN'T considered the far better player - it's never happened - it's only possible in the minds of delusional Lebron fans

[Straight_Ballin]

Exactly - out of all the advanced stats that OP posted, Jordan is ahead of Lebron in almost all of them.

It's just like another poster said - one stat might be an anomaly - but when nearly all the advanced stats show MJ ahead, then he isn't just a little better - he's A LOT better.

MJ's significant advantage over Lebron is demonstrated by the point I made previously:

show me where a #1 option scored 5-10 more ppg on better efficiency and WASN'T considered the far better player - it's never happened - it's only possible in the minds of delusional Lebron fans

Anyone can put up good numbers if they don't play the game according to the rules. Bron travels non stop to get his. Can't even find 5 videos of Jordan traveling and not getting called for it. Bron stans/current era stans will do anything to prop up their inferior player, yet they come up short each and every single time.

[ralph_i_el]

MJ is the GOAT.
LeBron is top 10
Kobe is maybe top 20

[Nash]

Exactly - out of all the advanced stats that OP posted, Jordan is ahead of Lebron in almost all of them.

It's just like another poster said - one stat might be an anomaly - but when nearly all the advanced stats show MJ ahead, then he isn't just a little better - he's A LOT better.

MJ's significant advantage over Lebron is demonstrated by the point I made previously:

show me where a #1 option scored 5-10 more ppg on better efficiency and WASN'T considered the far better player - it's never happened - it's only possible in the minds of delusional Lebron fans
you're too dumb and blind to realize that the purpose of this thread was not to say Lebron is better than Jordan, but to show how those two players are at the top in majority of the advanced stats.

Now take your insecure comparisons and GTFO

[3ball]

you're too dumb and blind to realize that the purpose of this thread was not to say Lebron is better than Jordan, but to show how those two players are at the top in majority of the advanced stats.

Now take your insecure comparisons and GTFO
:roll:

ur a joke don't be so mad

[3ball]

Anyone can put up good numbers if they don't play the game according to the rules. Bron travels non stop to get his. Can't even find 5 videos of Jordan traveling and not getting called for it. Bron stans/current era stans will do anything to prop up their inferior player, yet they come up short each and every single time.
and he forearm shoves defenders to make room because he's too bumbling, bulky and slow

[3ball]

Why just finals and not the entire playoffs?


Here's MJ and Lebron's regular stats:


Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 5.1 dreb.. 6.6 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ORtg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg.. 27.4 PER


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.76 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg



Career Playoffs:

Jordan: 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
Lebron: 28.2 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.7 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 blk.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg.. 27.4 PER


Career Finals:

Jordan: 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.65 bpg.. 48.1 fg
Lebron: 26.4 ppg.. 9.6 rpg.. 6.9 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.54 bpg.. 44.6 fg


Show me where a #1 option scored 5-10 more ppg on better efficiency and WASN'T considered the far better player - it's never happened - it's only possible in the minds of delusional Lebron fans

[Fire Colangelo]

28.2 points, 5.3 assists, 3.1 rebounds, 43% from field, 38% from 3 on 4 shots a game, 86% from FT line with 6 attempts a game in 2013.

What's the PER?

STFU.

:roll:

Edited the OP with Kobe's stats. What's a thread on ISH without Kobe?

Sure, you can dismiss a single stat like PER. But can you dismiss all of them? Other than career cumulative stats (still doesn't touch Jordan/LeBron), everything else is no where close to MJ/LeBron.

Sure there are outliers here and there, but is ALL of them a coincidence? I think not.

I didn't really wanna bring Kobe into this, but this is a thread you Kobe stans should've avoided tbh. :confusedshrug:


Exactly - out of all the advanced stats that OP posted, Jordan is ahead of Lebron in almost all of them.

It's just like another poster said - one stat might be an anomaly - but when nearly all the advanced stats show MJ ahead, then he isn't just a little better - he's A LOT better.

MJ's significant advantage over Lebron is demonstrated by the point I made previously:

show me where a #1 option scored 5-10 more ppg on better efficiency and WASN'T considered the far better player - it's never happened - it's only possible in the minds of delusional Lebron fans

Agreed.

Other than cumulative career stats, MJ tops LeBron in almost every single category. MJ was the perfect basketball player.

Also, LeBron's career PER, WS/48, etc are only going to decline from now on as he ages. But still, doesn't mean its any less impressive

[Nash]

:roll:

ur a joke don't be so mad
I'm the joke?
You're so terrible that people actually started joking about you on other forums.

[Straight_Ballin]

I'm the joke?
You're so terrible that people actually started joking about you on other forums.

You mean there are people on ISH who are so much of a no life having loser that they actually post on other basketball forums as well? :lol I barely have enough time to keep up with what's going on in ISH. Who are these people that you speak of?

[20Four]

http://i.imgur.com/opQtPh9.png

[oarabbus]

What good is advance stats if you can't back it up and choke in finals? :confusedshrug: Jordan give not a fvck about his advanced stats. He cares about those six rings.

Never put Bron in the same tier as Jordan. It's disrespectful.

http://static.vibe.com/files/photo_gallery_images/Michael-Jordan-Championship-Rings.jpg


Holy shit I mean jordan is better than Lebron but get off his dick

[ClipperRevival]

Gotta give credit to Bron. He had a run of advanced stats dominance close to MJ level for a 6-7 year period. But he was a clear level below MJ when it comes to playoff impact, clutch play and alpha dog mentality. But still, credit due.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Winshares and BPM are bad stats, in my opinion.

They don't take into account defense (only blocks and steals), opponents played, your help, and a variety of other things needed when analyzing a players impact.

I've always felt that LeBron was worse than his stats, and that Jordan was better than his numbers suggested. Same thing with Bird and Kobe, who generally speaking, never really cared about filling up a stat sheet.

[knicksman]

That is BS beyond words! MJ cared as much as anyone EVER about his stats.

"The day I let go of stats is the day I started winning." -Michael Jordan

He only cared during his prechampionship years. Thats why hes a loser just like bran

[knicksman]

the only advanced stat i look at that correlates to impact is ortg

[Young X]

Advanced stats are cool and can be useful but they should be used more for teams than individuals.

You shouldn't use any of them as straight up player evaluation tools. I mean I could show you a bunch of advanced stats to show you that CP3 > Magic or Dirk > Larry but that would be stupid.

MJ and Lebron along with Shaq ARE the 3 most dominant players of the modern era though. Advanced stats or not.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Advanced stats are cool and can be useful but they should be used more for teams than individuals.

You shouldn't use any of them as straight up player evaluation tools. I mean I could show you a bunch of advanced stats to show you that CP3 > Magic or Dirk > Larry but that would be stupid.

MJ and Lebron along with Shaq ARE the 3 most dominant players of the modern era though. Advanced stats or not.

Yeah, most of them include TEAM numbers just to get the individual's metric (ORTG is another stat guilty of this).

Agreed with the three you chose as well, although I would say Kobe's right there if we're just talking what these guys accomplished.

[Fire Colangelo]

Winshares and BPM are bad stats, in my opinion.

They don't take into account defense (only blocks and steals), opponents played, your help, and a variety of other things needed when analyzing a players impact.

I've always felt that LeBron was worse than his stats, and that Jordan was better than his numbers suggested. Same thing with Bird and Kobe, who generally speaking, never really cared about filling up a stat sheet.

Not saying that advanced stats are are end all be all ways of ranking players (far from it actually), and you're definitely right in the sense that it doesn't capture everything that goes on court. For example, a turnover late in the game is much more crucial than a turnover early in the game, but stats will categorize both turnovers the same.

Why is it that you feel LeBron is worse than his stats, and Kobe/Bird is better than their stats?

[references]

Not saying that advanced stats are are end all be all ways of ranking players (far from it actually), and you're definitely right in the sense that it doesn't capture everything that goes on court. For example, a turnover late in the game is much more crucial than a turnover early in the game, but stats will categorize both turnovers the same.

Why is it that you feel LeBron is worse than his stats, and Kobe/Bird is better than their stats?
he said jordan was better than his stats. all you need to know. :oldlol:

[Fire Colangelo]

he said jordan was better than his stats. all you need to know. :oldlol:

It's interesting, because Jordan definitely gave a shit about his stats.

But where do we get the perception that Kobe/Larry Bird doesn't care about their stats?

With Kobe, we're talking about an ego that drove Shaq of town so he can be the "man" and have all the "glory". Yet this is someone that supposedly doesn't care about this stats?

[references]

It's interesting, because Jordan definitely gave a shit about his stats.

But where do we get the perception that Kobe/Larry Bird doesn't care about their stats?

With Kobe, we're talking about an ego that drove Shaq of town so he can be the "man" and have all the "glory". Yet this is someone that supposedly doesn't care about this stats?
it's a load of bullshit used by imbeciles to rationalize lebron's statistical dominance over their favorite players

[knicksman]

it's a load of bullshit used by imbeciles to rationalize lebron's statistical dominance over their favorite players

More like you dont know shit about basketball. I guess its just a coincidence that iverson, marbury, westbrook, robertson have lesser impact than their stats suggest. And they play like bran. And you can add 32/8/8 jordan in there.

[dubeta]

More like you dont know shit about basketball. I guess its just a coincidence that iverson, marbury, westbrook, robertson have lesser impact than their stats suggest. And they play like bran. And you can add 32/8/8 jordan in there.

Its all about elite shot creation. Winners provide the most important/hardest skill to the table which is tough shot creation, while curry provides redundant skills that can be supplied easily by other players aka passing, defense, So the winners only need role players to win while curry needs superstars but still only manage 0/11. This teammate excuse is laughable at best. Magic won with old ass kareem scoring only 15ppg

[TommyGriffin]

Its all about elite shot creation. Winners provide the most important/hardest skill to the table which is tough shot creation, while curry provides redundant skills that can be supplied easily by other players aka passing, defense, So the winners only need role players to win while curry needs superstars but still only manage 0/11. This teammate excuse is laughable at best. Magic won with old ass kareem scoring only 15ppg

I agree with Elite shot creation being the most important aspect that is why Kyrie Irving is far better than Klay Thompson.

[knicksman]

Its all about elite shot creation. Winners provide the most important/hardest skill to the table which is tough shot creation, while curry provides redundant skills that can be supplied easily by other players aka passing, defense, So the winners only need role players to win while curry needs superstars but still only manage 0/11. This teammate excuse is laughable at best. Magic won with old ass kareem scoring only 15ppg

Looks like youre saving my posts. I never had a fan in my life. Thanks for being the 1st. Im serious bro:cheers:

[dubeta]

I agree with Elite shot creation being the most important aspect that is why Kyrie Irving is far better than Klay Thompson.

How many elite shots did Kyrie Irving get in the finals compared to Klay?

IIRC Klay dominated game 2, while Kyrie scored 0 points

Klay >> Kyrie

[Bankaii]

I agree with Elite shot creation being the most important aspect that is why Kyrie Irving is far better than Klay Thompson.
How many alts does warriorsfan have:biggums:

[Straight_Ballin]

Its all about elite shot creation. Winners provide the most important/hardest skill to the table which is tough shot creation, while curry provides redundant skills that can be supplied easily by other players aka passing, defense, So the winners only need role players to win while curry needs superstars but still only manage 0/11. This teammate excuse is laughable at best. Magic won with old ass kareem scoring only 15ppg

Yes, Curry's skills are so redundant that he managed to use them to become the new face of the NBA and make Bron all but irrelevant. He's going to make bron go 2/7, and then we can hear all about how Bron didn't have enough help. :lol

[TomBrady]

LeBron is so irrelevant that I talk about him 24/7 and regularly bring him up in threads that don't concern him.
Why are you so insecure? I'm worried about you, I think you're losing your mind.

My benevolence is usually limitless but your shit-posting is pushing it.

[GrapeApe]

I agree that advanced stats can be misleading, but Jordan and Lebron dominating those metrics doesn't happen by accident. They are the two most productive players in modern history. Though context is always required, PER seems to be a pretty accurate measure of overall productivity. There's certainly outliers, and older players must be judged differently since certain stats weren't recorded. However, on a season to season basis it usually reflects the top players in the league. That being said, one of the main problems with advanced stats (or any stat) is defense and intangibles are hard to quantify. Sometimes a player's impact goes beyond any quantifiable measure.