Has any other player fallen off like Josh Smith?

[Smoke117]

He's 30...and that's not old. He should still be in his prime...at the tail end, but still a good player. He now rides the pine for the majority of the game clock and averages 14.6mpg on the Clippers. At one point he was considered one of the best defensive forwards and one of the better all-around players in the league. In the 2010 season the Hawks won 53 games and he averaged: 15.7ppg 8.7rpg 4.2apg 2.1bpg 1.6spg .505%fg (only taking 0.1 3pt attempt)

How can you go from that...to this at 30 years old? 5.9ppg 4.0rpg 1.4apg 1.2bpg 0.5spg .395%fg

Yeah he's not as athletic as he was at 23 as he is at 30, but jesus christ...doesn't this cat have any pride? Nobody falls off this bad at age 30 unless from injuries or being lazy and just not giving a shit and he's clearly an example of the latter here. There are guys in the dleague working themselves to exhaustion every day just to get a chance at playing in the NBA while we have this jackass just sitting on the bench collecting his millions with no care in the world. I guess that talk his dad gave him last season when the Rockets picked him up didn't do any good...but what do you expect from a guy who was coddled and told how good he was from when he was probably 10 years old. (and likely by this same father) He's a perfect example of why players should play some college basketball and learn some fundamentals and work ethic before they join the NBA.

Edit: I should have made it clear, but I meant NON INJURY related fall offs.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Yeah he's been shit this season but he was very good last. Saved rockets season with Hardin cheerleading from bench

As for falling off award I think Gerald Wallace has the rights to it

Derrick Rose as well

[RedBlackAttack]

Rose's fall is on a whole different level, but there are different circumstances involved in that one. It was injury related.




Josh Smith's descent from a bright, young future star to borderline rotation guy is more curious. I think a lot of people do forget just how impactful this guy was on some pretty damn good Hawks teams. No, not championship contending teams, but the next level down... and he was considered the future of that team.

There are several factors that ended that idea.

First, those Atlanta teams featured him quite a bit and they actually built their roster -- as foolish as it may have been -- partially around his best traits. I never thought he was quite as good as he was billed.

That doesn't completely explain it though. The other factors in his downward spiral were a combination attitude/work ethic and the game changing to value different kinds of players. He was an athletic rim protector who was a high flyer around the basket in his best years... a kind of 6-foot-9 DeAndre Jordan who could occasionally take his game to the perimeter, but he made his living in the paint.

In his best seasons, 75% of his FGAs came within three-feet of the basket. The game was more centered around isolations and he thrived on guys like Joe Johnson drawing defensive attention and attacking the rim on cuts/lobs/putbacks/etc. He was able to roam defensively and was a good rim protector.

Now, about 50% of his FGAs come within three-feet of the basket. In today's game, you can't just be athletic around the rim as a 6-9 combination forward, unless you have a great post game (he doesn't have one) or are a great passer (he's not). The game has drifted out to the three-point line and to players who can keep the ball moving.

Likewise, Smith has tried to adapt his game, but he was never a good perimeter shooter. He was streaky good at times, but that's not good enough. He's also a bit of a ball-stopper.

Meanwhile, because he is only 6-9 and can't defend against the biggest big guys, today's style of versatile forwards who can shoot have pulled him away from the basket, nullifying his best asset as a rim protector. His blocks are down from almost three a game in his best years (one of the best in the league) to around one per game (closer to league average for a forward).


Bottom line, the best teams in today's league have players with clearly defined roles. Smith's best traits are suited for a different era of the NBA and, although he remains a good enough all-around player to be a rotation guy, the idea of him being a star someday was lost when PFs started drifting away from the basket and iso-ball became less frequent.

My two cents.

[Rake2204]

My knowledge on Josh Smith really only goes as far as his career in Detroit. I mean, I knew his highlights and I knew his stats in Atlanta, but I didn't know what his game looked like night in and night out.

But in Detroit, particularly last year prior to being waived, he was just awful. The interesting thing is you can look at his statline and depending on what you pick out, it didn't look that bad: 13.1 points, 7.2 rebounds, 1.2 blocks.

But watching him play, how he operated, the decisions he made, and pretty much the rest of the statsheet (I think he was on pace for the worst TS% for anyone in history taking at least 12 shots a game) was pretty brutal. The number of Pistons transition opportunities stymied as Smith looked past an outlet in favor of bringing the ball up the floor at half speed before uncorking a forced backdoor bounce pass that rolled helplessly out of bounds became too numerous to count.

It was confusing and confounding to watch him find success in Houston (though a lot of his numbers per 36 didn't really improve as much as people may have thought). Hitting 38 percent of his triples in the postseason was out of control; had no explanation for that one. Surely, he was taking a higher percentage of smarter threes than he was in Detroit, but not enough to warrant that kind of change. He was a 23 percent shooter from deep in Detroit and shoots sub-30 percent from the arc on his career.

Also, he shot under 50 percent from the line, which was brutal when playing alongside Andre Drummond. Oh, and as the team's most inefficient player, he also led the Pistons in field goal attempts by a healthy margin, naturally.

I don't know Josh Smith so I feel guilty for suggesting stuff like this, but from things I've read and the manner with which I've often seen him go about things on the court, it seems like he just doesn't get it. Like, I don't know if he has a lot of self-awareness. And he may have been able to get by as a world class athlete when he was in his early to mid-20's, but you've got to be able to think the game and adjust once that stuff starts to go.

[sundizz]

Rose's fall is on a whole different level, but there are different circumstances involved in that one. It was injury related.




Josh Smith's descent from a bright, young future star to borderline rotation guy is more curious. I think a lot of people do forget just how impactful this guy was on some pretty damn good Hawks teams. No, not championship contending teams, but the next level down... and he was considered the future of that team.

There are several factors that ended that idea.

First, those Atlanta teams featured him quite a bit and they actually built their roster -- as foolish as it may have been -- partially around his best traits. I never thought he was quite as good as he was billed.

That doesn't completely explain it though. The other factors in his downward spiral were a combination attitude/work ethic and the game changing to value different kinds of players. He was an athletic rim protector who was a high flyer around the basket in his best years... a kind of 6-foot-9 DeAndre Jordan who could occasionally take his game to the perimeter, but he made his living in the paint.

In his best seasons, 75% of his FGAs came within three-feet of the basket. The game was more centered around isolations and he thrived on guys like Joe Johnson drawing defensive attention and attacking the rim on cuts/lobs/putbacks/etc. He was able to roam defensively and was a good rim protector.

Now, about 50% of his FGAs come within three-feet of the basket. In today's game, you can't just be athletic around the rim as a 6-9 combination forward, unless you have a great post game (he doesn't have one) or are a great passer (he's not). The game has drifted out to the three-point line and to players who can keep the ball moving.

Likewise, Smith has tried to adapt his game, but he was never a good perimeter shooter. He was streaky good at times, but that's not good enough. He's also a bit of a ball-stopper.

Meanwhile, because he is only 6-9 and can't defend against the biggest big guys, today's style of versatile forwards who can shoot have pulled him away from the basket, nullifying his best asset as a rim protector. His blocks are down from almost three a game in his best years (one of the best in the league) to around one per game (closer to league average for a forward).


Bottom line, the best teams in today's league have players with clearly defined roles. Smith's best traits are suited for a different era of the NBA and, although he remains a good enough all-around player to be a rotation guy, the idea of him being a star someday was lost when PFs started drifting away from the basket and iso-ball became less frequent.

My two cents.

Yep agreed.

He relied on his athleticism and his decent all around ability (mainly dribble, bound, occasionally shoot, pass) at his peak. As his athleticism has waned, the league has changed to more pass friendly, and his skills in any one area (e.g., perimeter shooting) didn't improve he became drastically less relevant/useful to a winning team and got less opportunity to be a major cog on anyone's team.

He's the mold of Lamar, Dray, Randle, etc (can rebound + dribble). For those sort of players to be successful they need to develop their other complementary skills to a high enough degree to be useful in other non rebound + push situations.

[Rake2204]

As for falling off award I think Gerald Wallace has the rights to itThis one's pretty wild. I knew Wallace had been heading into the twilight of his career, but I was kind of shocked to check his bio and see he's only 32 years old. Dude just fell off a cliff. Went from 15 points per to 8 to 5 to 1 in a span of three years (2012-2015).

[ralph_i_el]

This one's pretty wild. I knew Wallace had been heading into the twilight of his career, but I was kind of shocked to check his bio and see he's only 32 years old. Dude just fell off a cliff. Went from 15 points per to 8 to 5 to 1 in a span of three years (2012-2015).

To be fair, he hustled and gave up the body more than just about anyone in the league.

Crash, if you're reading this, I don't blame you one bit for giving up once you hit 30.

[Smoke117]

To be fair, he hustled and gave up the body more than just about anyone in the league.

Crash, if you're reading this, I don't blame you one bit for giving up once you hit 30.

I wasn't a huge follower of Wallace, but didn't he start having problems staying healthy a couple years ago? Considering how much his game was built around his outstanding athleticism, it makes sense that he fell off. I still remember those brief appearances he made on the court when the Kings were contending and he was riding the bench most of the time. I always knew he'd turn into a good, solid player.

[wally_world]

He won MVP on my 2K9 team after 2 seasons

[JohnnySic]

Steve Francis fell off harder.

[72-10]

I believe Bob McAdoo fell off but it, too, was due to injuries I think.

[Rake2204]

To be fair, he hustled and gave up the body more than just about anyone in the league.

Crash, if you're reading this, I don't blame you one bit for giving up once you hit 30.Good point. Dude earned that nickname. Still remember the collapsed lung when he began honking as he struggled to catch his breath.

I guess if you're going to play 10 years in the NBA, might as well go as hard as he did. Can't say he didn't leave all out on the floor.

[Clifton]

If the Hawks trade for Dwight Howard, he should be traded to Atlanta for one of their SFs.

I know what you're saying - he will ruin the Hawks just like he ruins every other team... but he didn't ruin the Rockets when he was there. He has great chemistry with Dwight Howard and has thrived in Atlanta before. If Atlanta trades Horford, they will miss his versatility and ball movement, and Smith, at his best, is a poor man's Horford on offense and a very good defender.

I miss Josh Smith's 2bpg days. He was awesome. His shot selection was never great (even when he wasn't taking the 3, he took a lot of long 2s), but I think if he's in a system like Atlanta, where there's too much exciting movement going on to think about jacking up a terrible shot, he'll thrive.

I could see 3 lob-assists every single game to Dwight in that system for Smith.

[Clifton]

Bottom line, the best teams in today's league have players with clearly defined roles. Smith's best traits are suited for a different era of the NBA and, although he remains a good enough all-around player to be a rotation guy, the idea of him being a star someday was lost when PFs started drifting away from the basket and iso-ball became less frequent.
You made a good post there.

I don't totally agree though. Smith's strengths are adaptable. He was impressive because he was a great rim protector, AND could keep up with 3s and stretch 4s. He's a good defender anywhere on the floor. His instincts are good. Nobody sees him as a green light; he's always slowing guys down. He's not elite but he's good and most important he's versatile. I think he could handle switching onto a scoring guard as well as anyone.

I think he's underrated as a passer as well. Seeing him in Houston, I was surprised some enterprising franchise didn't take him on to be the next Draymond Green. Can't you see him setting a screen, getting it back, and leading a 4 on 3 the way Green and Griffin do? Not as good as those guys but I bet he could do it.

There was a rumor a few years back that San Antonio was interested in acquiring Smith. (Of course, this is back when they were fooling around with Tracy McGrady, so maybe not that seriously.) I think they could have done it; I think Mike B. could do it... but the Clippers don't have any room for him. Griffin is that player for them. That was a bad signing. Maybe the worst team he could have joined.

[Clifton]

Hitting 38 percent of his triples in the postseason was out of control; had no explanation for that one. Surely, he was taking a higher percentage of smarter threes than he was in Detroit, but not enough to warrant that kind of change. He was a 23 percent shooter from deep in Detroit and shoots sub-30 percent from the arc on his career.
He just got hot in the playoffs. You're right that he's simply not a good shooter.

However, there's a difference between throwing up 3s on a feel-good offense like Golden State, Houston, San Antonio, or Atlanta, versus a pound-it scheme like in Detroit or LA. Those teams want to plan out and draw a play for every shot. There are certain guys who are supposed to get the ball in certain situations, you're not supposed to improvise. Smith can't thrive in a system like that without adjusting his attitude, which he's not likely to do.