Kawhi vs Pippen defensively

[juju151111]

Who was the better defender? Kawhi is 4th in DRAPM and like the only perimeter player in the top 15. Everybody else is a center/PF
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

[r0drig0lac]

Kawhi with hand checking would be brutal

[DMAVS41]

Definitely in the same range of defensive players.

[sd3035]

Kawhi with hand checking would be brutal

http://illusion.scene360.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/gerardo-feldstein-09.jpg

[diamenz]

it's hard to say - they're both crazy good defensively. pippen had a higher d iq though, imo.

[mehyaM24]

i would roll with pippen since he could put his hands on the offensive player, and if need be, play you physical.

kawhi under the old rules would've been a nightmare. him and tony allen are the best [modern] perimeter defenders i've seen.

[swagga]

Kawhi with hand checking would be brutal

MJ never faced a defender as good as kwahi.

[swagga]

i would roll with pippen since he could put his hands on the offensive player, and if need be, play you physical.

kawhi under the old rules would've been a nightmare. him and tony allen are the best [modern] perimeter defenders i've seen.

i'd take both peak bowen and peak battier over tony allen.

kwahi is a strong niggga, if they'd let him to man up people he'd have no problem imo.

[3ball]

.
Pippen's defense is overrated - Pip couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif..



But just a few months earlier, 35-year old Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..
.

[Smoke117]

Leonard has never had to carry a team defensively like Pippen did the Bulls in 95.

[3ball]

Leonard has never had to carry a team defensively like Pippen did the Bulls in 95.
Kawhi's defense > Pippen's.

Remember when Mashburn dropped off Pippen for 50 in Chicago?

That never happens to Kawhi, no matter who he's guarding.. But it happened to Pippen all the time - he got dropped off for HUGE games by ****ing EVERYBODY.

[juju151111]

Kawhi's defense > Pippen's.

Remember when Mashburn dropped off Pippen for 50 in Chicago?

That never happens to Kawhi, no matter who he's guarding.. But it happened to Pippen all the time - he got dropped off for HUGE games by ****ing EVERYBODY.
No it didn't happen to Pippen all the time Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.

[Smoke117]

No it didn't happen to Pippen all the time Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.

Every great defender has been lit up...it happens. Either way, what made Pippen such a dominant defensive player was his team/help defense. He's the best ever in that regard.

[NBASTATMAN]

.
Pippen's defense is overrated - Pip couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif..



But just a few months earlier, 35-year old Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..
.
:applause:

Pippen wasn't close to MJ as A on ball defender. Pippen's greatest ability was on help defense... Probably the GOAT help defender... Anyone WHO watched bball in the 90's know this...

[La Frescobaldi]

Every great defender has been lit up...it happens. Either way, what made Pippen such a dominant defensive player was his team/help defense. He's the best ever in that regard.


This is actually a really hard question.

Kawhi plays with a better inside defender than Pippen ever had namely Tim Duncan - even in his declining years Timmy's still better than a lot of the league. Light years of smart play, wrecking the passing lanes, ideally located to smash a play, and so forth.

But yet Rodman.

Pippen played alongside a better perimeter defender than Leonard ever had namely Michael Jordan - even in his declining years i.e., after '96, Jordan was still better than a lot of the league.

There's just not any Spurs guy that can make a rebuttal like Rodman can for the Bulls inside D.

Really Pippen played with some stronger defensive players, see, even than the Spurs have had. So team defense isn't really any kind of fair comparison.

Leonard has famously stopped the best in his League, while Pippen.... notoriously could not stop Bird... that was early days for Pippen granted but no version of Pip could stop Larry Bird. Jordan couldn't do it either. Could Leonard do it? I'd be skeptical.... this is a real close thing right here.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Cherry-picked gifs means Pippen was a weak 1-on-1 defender, and overrated by fans.

The more you know...

[Sarcastic]

MJ never faced a defender as good as kwahi.


Gary Payton? Dennis Rodman? Sidney Moncrief? Michael Cooper? He also faced Pippen every day in practice.

[dhsilv]

This is actually a really hard question.

Kawhi plays with a better inside defender than Pippen ever had namely Tim Duncan - even in his declining years Timmy's still better than a lot of the league. Light years of smart play, wrecking the passing lanes, ideally located to smash a play, and so forth.

But yet Rodman.

Pippen played alongside a better perimeter defender than Leonard ever had namely Michael Jordan - even in his declining years i.e., after '96, Jordan was still better than a lot of the league.

There's just not any Spurs guy that can make a rebuttal like Rodman can for the Bulls inside D.

Really Pippen played with some stronger defensive players, see, even than the Spurs have had. So team defense isn't really any kind of fair comparison.

Leonard has famously stopped the best in his League, while Pippen.... notoriously could not stop Bird... that was early days for Pippen granted but no version of Pip could stop Larry Bird. Jordan couldn't do it either. Could Leonard do it? I'd be skeptical.... this is a real close thing right here.

I think you hit on some key point worth noting here.

Having an all time great rim protector allows a defender to over play the ball. It's one of the reasons imo Bowen gets far over valued for his defense. He could do much of his play due to having Duncan and Robinson for part of his career with the spurs. Tony Allen gets similar credit though for some reason I give him more credit just based on when I watch him he seems to be a bigger factor than Bowen did to me. Anyway you're also right that Pippen had MJ who was as good if not slightly better on ball, but not as good off ball as Pippen. I think having the shot blocker matters more.

I don't get the Rodman stuff he was only there for 3 years and there's no question MJ and Pippen were better prior to 96 defensively.

[Donkey4trading]

Who was the better defender? Kawhi is 4th in DRAPM and like the only perimeter player in the top 15. Everybody else is a center/PF
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

anybody playing less than 30 mpg shouldn't be able to register for that stat.

[dhsilv]

anybody playing less than 30 mpg shouldn't be able to register for that stat.

you can filter the damn stat for people meeting your demands...though 30 seems a bit silly if they've played most games. That's more than half the time in the game and you have teams like the warriors that don't need star players in their prime beyond 35 minutes.

[Donkey4trading]

you can filter the damn stat for people meeting your demands...though 30 seems a bit silly if they've played most games. That's more than half the time in the game and you have teams like the warriors that don't need star players in their prime beyond 35 minutes.

if you're barely playing half the game, or significantly less than half the game like KG and Bogut then how much impact are you really having on the game??

five of the top 10 in that stat don't even play 25 minutes per game

[La Frescobaldi]

I think you hit on some key point worth noting here.

Having an all time great rim protector allows a defender to over play the ball. It's one of the reasons imo Bowen gets far over valued for his defense. He could do much of his play due to having Duncan and Robinson for part of his career with the spurs. Tony Allen gets similar credit though for some reason I give him more credit just based on when I watch him he seems to be a bigger factor than Bowen did to me. Anyway you're also right that Pippen had MJ who was as good if not slightly better on ball, but not as good off ball as Pippen. I think having the shot blocker matters more.

I don't get the Rodman stuff he was only there for 3 years and there's no question MJ and Pippen were better prior to 96 defensively.

Rodman was well along in his decline but still elite - just like Timmy has been with Leonard, see?
If I had to choose between those two I'd prolly bite right through a rough rope lariat trying to get it right. Of course all-round there's no comparison at all but those guys are right there at the very top when it comes to defense - even on aged legs.
Kawhi with Duncan in his glory days????? I could see them keeping teams under 60 points on the regular lol
And imagine Pippen with earlier Rodman??? same thing see

We're talking right here about guys that play the game at the highest levels for a fact

[Smoke117]

This is actually a really hard question.

Kawhi plays with a better inside defender than Pippen ever had namely Tim Duncan - even in his declining years Timmy's still better than a lot of the league. Light years of smart play, wrecking the passing lanes, ideally located to smash a play, and so forth.

But yet Rodman.

Pippen played alongside a better perimeter defender than Leonard ever had namely Michael Jordan - even in his declining years i.e., after '96, Jordan was still better than a lot of the league.

There's just not any Spurs guy that can make a rebuttal like Rodman can for the Bulls inside D.

Really Pippen played with some stronger defensive players, see, even than the Spurs have had. So team defense isn't really any kind of fair comparison.

Leonard has famously stopped the best in his League, while Pippen.... notoriously could not stop Bird... that was early days for Pippen granted but no version of Pip could stop Larry Bird. Jordan couldn't do it either. Could Leonard do it? I'd be skeptical.... this is a real close thing right here.

You realize Pippens most dominant defensive seasons were in 94 and 95 when there was no jordan and then no Jordan or Grant, right? Could Kawhi get as good as he was those two seasons and especially 95? Maybe, but he hasn't yet.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Cherry-picked gifs means Pippen was a weak 1-on-1 defender, and overrated by fans.

The more you know...

**using 3 ball's logic**

Here as you can see, MVP MJ was not able to handle the fadeaway from an 18 year old kid who couldn't even start on his own team. As the game began to evolve and change, Jordan couldn't keep up

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif.html)

as you can see here, an 18 year old kid is easily shaking Pippen and Jordan's defense

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif.html)

I've posted two gifs, so this is indisputable evidence that Jordan was overrated on defense

[La Frescobaldi]

You realize Pippens most dominant defensive seasons were in 94 and 95 when there was no jordan and then no Jordan or Grant, right? Could Kawhi get as good as he was those two seasons and especially 95? Maybe, but he hasn't yet.


I do realize it man.

I don't know if Leonard will get there but he sure is improving fast.......... real fast

[sd3035]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif.html)


Joran had no idea how to play defense :lol

looks like he's doing jumping jacks, what a scrub

[plowking]

**using 3 ball's logic**

Here as you can see, MVP MJ was not able to handle the fadeaway from an 18 year old kid who couldn't even start on his own team. As the game began to evolve and change, Jordan couldn't keep up

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif.html)

as you can see here, an 18 year old kid is easily shaking Pippen and Jordan's defense

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif.html)

I've posted two gifs, so this is indisputable evidence that Jordan was overrated on defense

Wow, Jordan had all that time and position to step over and stop the drive.

Few things I noticed just from this GIF, and is totally inarguable at this point:
-Jordan is a terrible defender
-Scared to get dunked on, and doesn't stop drives
-Terrible at moving his feet, and terrible defensive position

[Smoke117]

I do realize it man.

I don't know if Leonard will get there but he sure is improving fast.......... real fast

I've seen perimeter players get the DPOY when they didn't deserve it like Payton (Robinson was easily the DPOY in 96) and Artest (he didn't even have the biggest impact defensively on his own team...Jermaine did) so it's always pissed me off that Scottie got screwed over in 95 when he actually deserved it.

[plowking]

I've seen perimeter players get the DPOY when they didn't deserve it like Payton (Robinson was easily the DPOY in 96) and Artest (he didn't even have the biggest impact defensively on his own team...Jermaine did) so it's always pissed me off that Scottie got screwed over in 95 when he actually deserved it.

Jordan didn't deserve his either. Neither did Kawhi if we're being completely honest. Green was >Kawhi last season. Mainly because he played all the games.

[Smoke117]

Jordan didn't deserve his either. Neither did Kawhi if we're being completely honest. Green was >Kawhi last season. Mainly because he played all the games.

Yeah I know...Rodman didn't deserve his either frankly. Hakeem should have been the DPOY 88-90 and Robinson in 91. Hakeem Olajuwons 1990 season is the best defensive year by any player ever in the modern era and they gave it to Rodman...:facepalm

[3ball]

I've posted two gifs, so this is indisputable evidence that Jordan was overrated on defense


It's hilarious how guys post gifs of Iverson crossing Jordan, and Jordan almost blocking his shot... and now Kobe hitting a tough shot over Jordan's great defense.

Your gifs show Jordan playing great defense.. Jordan rarely got blown by, whereas Pippen routinely did - infact, your 2nd gif shows Pippen getting blown by actually... I should've used that one in my previous posts.. Jordan was just coming over to help on that one.

It's amazing - I show clear gifs of Pippen getting destroyed, and you respond with gifs of MJ playing great defense and guys making near-impossible shots... good job bud... you really showed me... :oldlol: ... :applause:

[hitmanyr2k]

This is actually a really hard question.

Kawhi plays with a better inside defender than Pippen ever had namely Tim Duncan - even in his declining years Timmy's still better than a lot of the league. Light years of smart play, wrecking the passing lanes, ideally located to smash a play, and so forth.

But yet Rodman.

Pippen played alongside a better perimeter defender than Leonard ever had namely Michael Jordan - even in his declining years i.e., after '96, Jordan was still better than a lot of the league.

There's just not any Spurs guy that can make a rebuttal like Rodman can for the Bulls inside D.

Really Pippen played with some stronger defensive players, see, even than the Spurs have had. So team defense isn't really any kind of fair comparison.

Leonard has famously stopped the best in his League, while Pippen.... notoriously could not stop Bird... that was early days for Pippen granted but no version of Pip could stop Larry Bird. Jordan couldn't do it either. Could Leonard do it? I'd be skeptical.... this is a real close thing right here.

That's all well and good but Pippen's best defensive seasons ('94 and '95) were without Jordan. His absolute best defensive season ('95) was without Jordan, Horace, Rodman, Cartwright, or Scott Williams on the team. Chicago's interior defense was shit but Pippen still anchored that team to the 2nd best defense from the SF position anyway as their leading rebounder, shotblocker, etc.

[La Frescobaldi]

That's all well and good but Pippen's best defensive seasons ('94 and '95) were without Jordan. His absolute best defensive season ('95) was without Jordan, Horace, Rodman, Cartwright, or Scott Williams on the team. Chicago's interior defense was shit but Pippen still anchored that team to the 2nd best defense from the SF position anyway as their leading rebounder, shotblocker, etc.

we already talked about that

[Smoke117]

That's all well and good but Pippen's best defensive seasons ('94 and '95) were without Jordan. His absolute best defensive season ('95) was without Jordan, Horace, Rodman, Cartwright, or Scott Williams on the team. Chicago's interior defense was shit but Pippen still anchored that team to the 2nd best defense from the SF position anyway as their leading rebounder, shotblocker, etc.

Pippen was so dominant and spent so much energy defensively in that 95 season that they would say how he was too exhausted at the end of games to finish of a team offensively...how many other superstars can you say that about...that they cared more about defense than offense? None. There were also no perimeter superstars as great as he was on defense either.

[diamenz]

3ball just wreaks of insecurity.

[dhsilv]

if you're barely playing half the game, or significantly less than half the game like KG and Bogut then how much impact are you really having on the game??

five of the top 10 in that stat don't even play 25 minutes per game

the best players are playing 35-38 minutes that's less than 80% of the game. I fully get why you want to discount a player for less minutes and I fully agree with that! If you notice espn.com also has a stat called WAR based on the RPM, that factors in your wins above replacement which is based on minutes played and that real plus minus values. So they already include that so you can scale down a player who you feel is over valued. But they don't dismiss the guy, they adjust him down which is fair. If you want to add an additional bump in your assessment when you evaluate a guy, you can do that too. You just should post your reasoning and while a few trolls might be *****, most of us will listen and try to assess if you made a good case or not. I mean look, I LOVE Tim Duncan, but even I'm not ready to call him defensive player of the year with a massive lead in the defensive metrics with him playing so few minutes. I might change my mind if he's this far ahead in a few months but I doubt it.

Now is he an all defensive team kinda guy? So far I don't think his minutes will hurt him if he keeps ups this level of play (I doubt he can).

[dhsilv]

Rodman was well along in his decline but still elite - just like Timmy has been with Leonard, see?
If I had to choose between those two I'd prolly bite right through a rough rope lariat trying to get it right. Of course all-round there's no comparison at all but those guys are right there at the very top when it comes to defense - even on aged legs.
Kawhi with Duncan in his glory days????? I could see them keeping teams under 60 points on the regular lol
And imagine Pippen with earlier Rodman??? same thing see

We're talking right here about guys that play the game at the highest levels for a fact

Rodman doesn't have the impact on his teamates that a Duncan has. Rodman was an insanely good defender but he wasn't the rim protector and I'm sorry I just value that more. Rodman was also an amazing offensive rebounder, it isn't like ALL his rebounds were defensive.

Rodman at least with the bulls was much more a great rebounder and great man defender. He wasn't a guy who could cover ground and help his teammates as much as Duncan or really any elite team shot blocker.

[dhsilv]

Yeah I know...Rodman didn't deserve his either frankly. Hakeem should have been the DPOY 88-90 and Robinson in 91. Hakeem Olajuwons 1990 season is the best defensive year by any player ever in the modern era and they gave it to Rodman...:facepalm

In rodman's defense he might have been better in 92...and didn't win it.

[dhsilv]

Jordan didn't deserve his either. Neither did Kawhi if we're being completely honest. Green was >Kawhi last season. Mainly because he played all the games.

I'm not sure about green, now Duncan imo was clearly the better player defensively if we're looking at game count and minutes played.

[Smoke117]

In rodman's defense he might have been better in 92...and didn't win it.

LMFAO...David Robinson had the 2nd greatest defensive season in the modern era of basketball in 92 after Hakeems 90, so you can get the **** out of my face with that nonsense. If you actually think Rodman should have been DPOY over Robinson in 92...we have nothing to discuss further because you're a ****ing retard.

[dhsilv]

LMFAO...David Robinson had the 2nd greatest defensive season in the modern era of basketball in 92 after Hakeems 90, so you can get the **** out of my face with that nonsense. If you actually think Rodman should have been DPOY over Robinson in 92...we have nothing to discuss further because you're a ****ing retard.

just said he had a better season.....than his prior two.

Honestly I'm not going to try and rank defensive seasons in that era as I don't remember it, alive yes, but remember? **** no. I don't know if I'm reliable osmetimes 10 years ago, let alone in 92! But defense is still even today hard as hell to rank. Back before we even had good defensive stats?

Though there was was a game and minute gap...big enough to talk about, but again my point was never rodman was better.

[Smoke117]

just said he had a better season.....than his prior two.

Honestly I'm not going to try and rank defensive seasons in that era as I don't remember it, alive yes, but remember? **** no. I don't know if I'm reliable osmetimes 10 years ago, let alone in 92! But defense is still even today hard as hell to rank. Back before we even had good defensive stats?

Though there was was a game and minute gap...big enough to talk about, but again my point was never rodman was better.

David Robinson was absolutely the best defensive player in the world in the 92 season, period.

[sundizz]

David Robinson was absolutely the best defensive player in the world in the 92 season, period.

And arguably the best ever. Though Shaq daddy treated him like a backyard brawler.

Only people that did decent against Shaq were the ones with the natural size + strength to move him/stand their ground occasionally. Power/strength players like a Robinson or Dwight had absolutely no chance. No amount of working out can stop that sort of innate power base.

[Teanett]

And arguably the best ever. Though Shaq daddy treated him like a backyard brawler.

Only people that did decent against Shaq were the ones with the natural size + strength to move him/stand their ground occasionally. Power/strength players like a Robinson or Dwight had absolutely no chance. No amount of working out can stop that sort of innate power base.

Shaq was a rookie in '92. No way he had his way with the Admiral then.
He started dominating him later.

[Smoke117]

Shaq was a rookie in '92. No way he had his way with the Admiral then.
He started dominating him later.

For all those youngsters out there...Robinson regularly outplayed Shaq in the 90s. Shaq is the "MDE" against the like of an old sabas, Robinson, Hakeem etc in the early 2000s. He wasn't even close to being considered as dominant going against Hakeem and Robinson in their primes in the mid 90s

[La Frescobaldi]

Rodman doesn't have the impact on his teamates that a Duncan has. Rodman was an insanely good defender but he wasn't the rim protector and I'm sorry I just value that more. Rodman was also an amazing offensive rebounder, it isn't like ALL his rebounds were defensive.

Rodman at least with the bulls was much more a great rebounder and great man defender. He wasn't a guy who could cover ground and help his teammates as much as Duncan or really any elite team shot blocker.
all true and i agree with every bit of your view. but rodman could and did cover every position, not just on rotations either. not just talking about centers either, he even covered point guards at times. also no comparison at all in transition defense; Rodman was one of the greatest athletes ever seen on a basketball court.
now if we are strictly talking 97 rodman and like 2014 duncan that's one thing.... i was thinking of these guys in their best days and over their careers.
of course as players there isn't any comparison at all because Duncan's offense was at the highest levels while rodman lol

[Smoke117]

all true and i agree with every bit of your view. but rodman could and did cover every position, not just on rotations either. he even covered point guards at times. also no comparison at all in transition defense; Rodman was one of the greatest athletes ever seen on a basketball court.
now if we are strictly talking 97 rodman and like 2014 duncan that's one thing.... i was thinking of these guys in their best days and over their careers.
of course as players there isn't any comparison at all because Duncan's offense was at the highest levels while rodman lol

Rodman was incredibly overrated in this regard frankly...he was never as good of perimeter defender as people want to make him out to be. Part of the reason the Pistons had to Hammer MJ and Scottie at the rim is because of easily they both got past him. Pip was averaging nearly 10fta's in the 91 playoffs because he easily went right around a 29 year old Rodman in his prime.

[La Frescobaldi]

Rodman was incredibly overrated in this regard frankly...he was never as good of perimeter defender as people want to make him out to be. Part of the reason the Pistons had to Hammer MJ and Scottie at the rim is because of easily they both got past him. Pip was averaging nearly 10fta's in the 91 playoffs because he easily went right around a 29 year old Rodman in his prime.

what's that got to do with it, frankly? how many jordan pippen combos have there been in history? it is perfectly true, nobody ever stopped them after Tex showed up, and no team i ever saw could either... which goes clear back to 60s.
pistons were perfecting defenses used to this day and Rodman was the center piece a lot of the time.
I don't think Rodman's defense can BE overrated. No matter how high you put it he was that good. We are talking about one of the 3 or 4 greatest defenders of all time here

[Smoke117]

what's that got to do with it, frankly? how many jordan pippen combos have there been in history? it is perfectly true, nobody ever stopped them after Tex showed up, and no team i ever saw could either... which goes clear back to 60s.
pistons were perfecting defenses used to this day and Rodman was the center piece a lot of the time.
I don't think Rodman's defense can BE overrated. No matter how high you put it he was that good. We are talking about one of the 3 or 4 greatest defenders of all time here

Uh...considering he was given a DPOY during the greatest modern defensive players best defensive season...I'd say he can be overrated.

[La Frescobaldi]

Uh...considering he was given a DPOY during the greatest modern defensive players best defensive season...I'd say he can be overrated.

we can disagree about who deserved it and still have a great day though

[dhsilv]

For all those youngsters out there...Robinson regularly outplayed Shaq in the 90s. Shaq is the "MDE" against the like of an old sabas, Robinson, Hakeem etc in the early 2000s. He wasn't even close to being considered as dominant going against Hakeem and Robinson in their primes in the mid 90s

Man Sabonis played shaq tough in his prime. All that MDE stuff, that was a guy who could guard shaq one on one and until foul trouble he'd give him a game.

[dhsilv]

all true and i agree with every bit of your view. but rodman could and did cover every position, not just on rotations either. not just talking about centers either, he even covered point guards at times. also no comparison at all in transition defense; Rodman was one of the greatest athletes ever seen on a basketball court.
now if we are strictly talking 97 rodman and like 2014 duncan that's one thing.... i was thinking of these guys in their best days and over their careers.
of course as players there isn't any comparison at all because Duncan's offense was at the highest levels while rodman lol

But we're talking in relationship to how they impacted their teammates and rodman was brought up as an asset to pippen, they only played 3 years together. Only in 96 was Rodman close to prime time form. He wasn't bad after that by any means but he wasn't like he was in the early 90's.

[L.A. Jazz]

Until now in Kwahi`s career i say Pippen because he was the better interior defender against bigger players, even blocking a lot of shots. Kwahi can get there because sofar he is doing a great Pipp impression on the perimeter.

i am biased because i loved Pippens game back then, even rooting for the Jazz.

[3ball]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/KobeoverJordangif_zps7134594b.gif.html)


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e246/J_K/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/J_K/media/kobeupandundercomplete_zps5d4b68e3.gif.html)


I've posted two gifs, so this is indisputable evidence that Jordan was overrated on defense



:wtf:

Your first gif shows Jordan playing great defense and forcing Kobe into a near-impossible shot..

The 2nd gif shows Pippen getting blown by AGAIN, with Jordan just coming over to help.

It's amazing - I showed many gifs itt of Pippen getting blown by repeatedly (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11974757&postcount=9), and your response is to show Jordan forcing Kobe into a super-tough shot and then helping after Pip gets blown by again?

What a joke Jordan haters are... And btw, it isn't just a few gifs.. ****ing EVERYBODY destroyed Pippen - do you know how many guys went off for huge games on Pippen - literally every decent wing in the league had massive gameS against Pip.. Whereas guys rarely had big games on MJ.

[La Frescobaldi]

But we're talking in relationship to how they impacted their teammates and rodman was brought up as an asset to pippen, they only played 3 years together. Only in 96 was Rodman close to prime time form. He wasn't bad after that by any means but he wasn't like he was in the early 90's.

yeah my point exactly.

it's not like Leonard ever stepped on any court with prime Duncan, see?

[TheMarkMadsen]

:wtf:

Your first gif shows Jordan playing great defense and forcing Kobe into a near-impossible shot..

The 2nd gif shows Pippen getting blown by AGAIN, with Jordan just coming over to help.

It's amazing - I showed many gifs itt of Pippen getting blown by repeatedly (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11974757&postcount=9), and your response is to show Jordan forcing Kobe into a super-tough shot and then helping after Pip gets blown by again?

What a joke Jordan haters are... And btw, it isn't just a few gifs.. ****ing EVERYBODY destroyed Pippen - do you know how many guys went off for huge games on Pippen - literally every decent wing in the league had massive gameS against Pip.. Whereas guys rarely had big games on MJ.

holy shit did you really delete this post from page two so that you could re paste it as the most recent comment so that you could bump this thread :oldlol: :oldlol:

I feel no need to respond to your delusional ass and hear about how Scottie Pippen supposedly sucked and isn't even top 100

[ShawkFactory]

holy shit did you really delete this post from page two so that you could re paste it as the most recent comment so that you could bump this thread :oldlol: :oldlol:

I feel no need to respond to your delusional ass and here about how Scottie Pippen supposedly sucked and isn't even top 100
Seems about right :lol

[3ball]

Seems about right :lol
Why are you agreeing with this fool (other than just being contrary)

Do you realize he posted gifs of Jordan playing great defense and forcing guys into impossible shots, and compared that to Pippen getting blown by off-the-dribble and embarrassed?

ridiculous

[TheMarkMadsen]

Why are you agreeing with this fool (other than just being contrary)

Do you realize he posted gifs of Jordan playing great defense and forcing guys into impossible shots, and compared that to Pippen getting blown by off-the-dribble and embarrassed?

ridiculous

do you really lack this much self awareness?

I posted those gifs not to show that Jordan isn't a good defender, but to show how anybody can post a few gifs of a player getting scored on and claim they are a bad defender. Just like you did with Pippen :facepalm :facepalm

[3ball]

:rolleyes:
.

[3ball]

anybody can post a few gifs of a player getting scored on and claim they are a bad defender.


If you want to show Jordan playing bad defense, then show him getting blown by and destroyed, like I did for Pippen.

Don't show him forcing guys into low percentage shots, and then say it's bad defense.. That's just dumb.





Just like you did with Pippen


Again, I showed Pippen getting blown by and giving up poster dunks - that's bad defense.

Otoh, you showed MJ forcing guys into low percentage fadeaways - that's GOOD defense.

[Bigsmoke]

Actually, im gonna say Kawhi

[Bigsmoke]

Leonard has never had to carry a team defensively like Pippen did the Bulls in 95.

They didn't do shit lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

do you realize how easy it is to cherry pick a few gifs? Do you really think that your gifs of Pippen getting scored on are convincing anybody that he wasn't a great defender? Sorry but nobody is falling for that :oldlol: :oldlol:

its pretty easy to cherry pick gifs to show that somebody wasn't a good defender

here I'm about to go into 3ball mode and show how a few gifs generalize an entire player's career


Here Jordan lazily fights through the screen, doesn't even contest the shot before running back in a pathetic attempt at cherry picking for an easy dunk.. Jordan doesn't even attempt to contest the shot, check out that lazy ass defense

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-23-2015/MpdVFL.gif


oh look here he is doing the exact same thing in the same game just moments later

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-23-2015/EQCm3n.gif

numerous years later and nothing had changed, still playing lazy, uninspired defense. Doesn't even extend his arm to contest the shot, instead get's scored on by a rookie..

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-24-2015/bLGzCe.gif

But Jordan was no stranger to getting scored on by rookies


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2mi5v.gif

as you can see, these four gifs illustrate how lazy and uninspired Jordan's defense was. For the most part, players didn't feel the need to put a move and shake off Jordan like they put on a move to shake off Pippen in the gifs you showed, because these guys knew how lazy Jordan's defense was and didn't feel the need to, so they just elevated and scored while Jordan ran back hoping to get the outlet pass and pad his scoring stats

[mehyaM24]

those drexler gifs :eek:

markmadsen is killing 3ball.. somebody call peta. this is straight animal abuse.

[ShawkFactory]

do you realize how easy it is to cherry pick a few gifs? Do you really think that your gifs of Pippen getting scored on are convincing anybody that he wasn't a great defender? Sorry but nobody is falling for that :oldlol: :oldlol:

its pretty easy to cherry pick gifs to show that somebody wasn't a good defender

here I'm about to go into 3ball mode and show how a few gifs generalize an entire player's career


Here Jordan lazily fights through the screen, doesn't even contest the shot before running back in a pathetic attempt at cherry picking for an easy dunk.. Jordan doesn't even attempt to contest the shot, check out that lazy ass defense

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-23-2015/MpdVFL.gif


oh look here he is doing the exact same thing in the same game just moments later

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-23-2015/EQCm3n.gif

numerous years later and nothing had changed, still playing lazy, uninspired defense. Doesn't even extend his arm to contest the shot, instead get's scored on by a rookie..

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-24-2015/bLGzCe.gif

But Jordan was no stranger to getting scored on by rookies


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2mi5v.gif

as you can see, these four gifs illustrate how lazy and uninspired Jordan's defense was. For the most part, players didn't feel the need to put a move and shake off Jordan like they put on a move to shake off Pippen in the gifs you showed, because these guys knew how lazy Jordan's defense was and didn't feel the need to, so they just elevated and scored while Jordan ran back hoping to get the outlet pass and pad his scoring stats
MAD fvcking props. You took the time to do this and its absolutely beautiful.

It's all for naught though.

[3ball]

unbelievable - I show Pippen getting blown by and giving up poster dunks

you show jordan getting lost on a screen.. :facepalm

jordan was far better at keeping defenders in front of him - he was almost never blown by.. that's why you can only show Jordan getting lost on a screen or forcing kobe/iverson into low percentage jumpers - it's pretty hard to find clips of Jordan getting blown by and destroyed like Pippen routinely did.

but the real proof is that guys frequently had HUGE games on Pippen - I'm talking 35, 40, and 50 point games on Scottie - it happened to Pippen all the time - virtually every decent wing in the league had huge games on Pippen.

But guys rarely had big games on Jordan.. I remember when Mashburn destroyed Pippen for 50 points in Chicago.. That kind of stuff never happened to MJ.

[Da_Realist]

...

In the first vid, MJ was screened off and arrived too late to actually contest a 3pt shot by Drexler. If MJ jumps after getting there that late, Drexler could have faked and blew past him for a better shot.

In the second vid, MJ stops Porter from penetrating and couldn't cover enough ground to contest a 3 pointer by Clyde. He stopped Porter from compromising the defense and gave up a long jump shot. So what?

The last two, MJ actually played good defense and contested the shots. Long jump shots.

[diamenz]

that's not necessarily lazy defense, but moreso just mj's ego getting in his way.

[Paul George 24]

do you realize how easy it is to cherry pick a few gifs? Do you really think that your gifs of Pippen getting scored on are convincing anybody that he wasn't a great defender? Sorry but nobody is falling for that :oldlol: :oldlol:

its pretty easy to cherry pick gifs to show that somebody wasn't a good defender

here I'm about to go into 3ball mode and show how a few gifs generalize an entire player's career


Here Jordan lazily fights through the screen, doesn't even contest the shot before running back in a pathetic attempt at cherry picking for an easy dunk.. Jordan doesn't even attempt to contest the shot, check out that lazy ass defense

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-23-2015/MpdVFL.gif


oh look here he is doing the exact same thing in the same game just moments later

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-23-2015/EQCm3n.gif

numerous years later and nothing had changed, still playing lazy, uninspired defense. Doesn't even extend his arm to contest the shot, instead get's scored on by a rookie..

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-24-2015/bLGzCe.gif

But Jordan was no stranger to getting scored on by rookies


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2mi5v.gif

as you can see, these four gifs illustrate how lazy and uninspired Jordan's defense was. For the most part, players didn't feel the need to put a move and shake off Jordan like they put on a move to shake off Pippen in the gifs you showed, because these guys knew how lazy Jordan's defense was and didn't feel the need to, so they just elevated and scored while Jordan ran back hoping to get the outlet pass and pad his scoring stats
u forget how iverson destroyed kobe ?????????? it's even worse :banana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20mprb7LLiw

[La Frescobaldi]

do you realize how easy it is to cherry pick a few gifs? Do you really think that your gifs of Pippen getting scored on are convincing anybody that he wasn't a great defender? Sorry but nobody is falling for that :oldlol: :oldlol:

its pretty easy to cherry pick gifs to show that somebody wasn't a good defender

here I'm about to go into 3ball mode and show how a few gifs generalize an entire player's career
................

as you can see, these four gifs illustrate how lazy and uninspired Jordan's defense was. For the most part, players didn't feel the need to put a move and shake off Jordan like they put on a move to shake off Pippen in the gifs you showed, because these guys knew how lazy Jordan's defense was and didn't feel the need to, so they just elevated and scored while Jordan ran back hoping to get the outlet pass and pad his scoring stats

the reverse English shot on 3ball corner pocket.

game set match on the jlauber of jordan

[Smoke117]

3ball...you clearly have some deep rooted psychological issues.

[Bankaii]

u forget how iverson destroyed kobe ?????????? it's even worse :banana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20mprb7LLiw
To be fair AI crossed up everyone, dude has GOAT handles.

And King Kyrie is the new heir to the crossover throne.

What a time to be alive!:bowdown: :rockon:

[3ball]

To be fair AI crossed up everyone, dude has GOAT handles.



The difference is that Kobe got shook really badly and gave up a wide open jumper, whereas MJ still played great D and almost blocked Iverson - Iverson says so himself:



"But the craziest thing about it, was that I hit him with my best move.... and he STILL almost blocked it... (laughs embarassingly)... That was so crazy about it.. That's just lets you know how great of a defensive player he was."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLhI9cgsO4c&t=0m40s


Again, MJ rarely got blown by or let guys have big games on him.. Whereas guys like Pippen and Kobe get blown by all the time, while letting guys like Mashburn and Arenas go off for 50 and 60 on them..

[Bankaii]

The difference is that Kobe got shook really badly and gave up a wide open jumper, whereas MJ still played great D and almost blocked Iverson - Iverson says so himself:



"But the craziest thing about it, was that I hit him with my best move.... and he STILL almost blocked it... (laughs embarassingly)... That was so crazy about it.. That's just lets you know how great of a defensive player he was."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLhI9cgsO4c&t=0m40s


Again, MJ rarely got blown by or let guys have big games on him.. Whereas guys like Pippen and Kobe get blown by all the time, while letting guys like Mashburn and Arenas go off for 50 and 60 on them..
I'm not about to have this debate with you because you're an idiot but...

AI could've blown by Jordan. When he crossed him Jordan's momentum was in the opposite direction and his body was faced at an angle towards the crowd while AI was stepping towards the goal.

The only thing that stopped AI was Pippen (GOAT help defender) and a Center in the paint both waiting for him, causing him to pull-up.

It was a nice recovery after getting his ankles shattered but without his backup MJ wouldve been blown past by the GOAT crossover.

[Da_Realist]

I'm not about to have this debate with you because you're an idiot but...

AI could've blown by Jordan. When he crossed him Jordan's momentum was in the opposite direction and his body was faced at an angle towards the crowd while AI was stepping towards the goal.

The only thing that stopped AI was Pippen (GOAT help defender) and a Center in the paint both waiting for him, causing him to pull-up.

It was a nice recovery after getting his ankles shattered but without his backup MJ wouldve been blown past by the GOAT crossover.

Yet Iverson himself pointed out how impressed he was with MJ's defense on that play. This was a video celebrating the move. This was not Come Fly With Me...Revisited. He did not need to mention MJ at all and it seems silly to do so at his own expense unless he was truly impressed and wanted his opinion on the record.

And didn't Iverson say he gave MJ his best move? So it took his best move to move MJ enough to get a contested shot. The guy with the GOAT crossover spent half the video praising (unprompted) MJ's defense on his "best" move.

[Bankaii]

Yet Iverson himself pointed out how impressed he was with MJ's defense on that play. This was a video celebrating the move. This was not Come Fly With Me...Revisited. He did not need to mention MJ at all and it seems silly to do so at his own expense unless he was truly impressed and wanted his opinion on the record.

And didn't Iverson say he gave MJ his best move? So it took his best move to move MJ enough to get a contested shot. The guy with the GOAT crossover spent half the video praising (unprompted) MJ's defense on his "best" move.
I gave MJ his props, it was a very nice recovery and showed great reaction time.

BUT you can clearly see from that gif that in a vacuum AI would've blown right by him for a free layup.
He hesitated and did a pull-up because MJ had two teammates ready to help.

And AI has always had high praise for MJ.
As far as his best move goes, I think it's a double crossover (the one that made a defender fall down twice vs Washington I believe) rather than a hesi to crossover, but who would know his best move better than him?:confusedshrug:

[feyki]

Doctor J