Candid remarks from Magic & Isiah about MJ's supporting cast in 1993

[3ball]

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Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:


"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s




Then Costas turned to Isiah, who responded to Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:


"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."



Later in the interview, Costas asked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=5m00s) Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever:


"I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah."



^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - that's how dominant he was.. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).
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[mehyaM24]

the 1993 bulls had 3 players among the top 20 in RAPM

https://web.archive.org/web/20150418192930/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1993.html

along with shooters, the best defense in the playoffs and the best coach - they were absolutely stacked

this all relative to era, though, so magic & isiah has a point when saying the lakers and pistons BEST teams would have beatdown THESE bulls.

i always said the best sixer, laker AND celtics teams beat every version of the bulls in the 90s. the pistons i'm not sure.

[3ball]

the 1993 bulls had 3 players among the top 20 in RAPM

https://web.archive.org/web/20150418192930/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1993.html


There's no such thing as RAPM in 1993... RAPM wasn't available until 1997..

Everyone knows this - your stats are bogus.

Otoh, Magic and Isiah were being very candid in that interview.. You can tell that's how they really feel and it gives you a feel for the overall perception of MJ at that time (the goat by 1993).

[juju151111]

the 1993 bulls had 3 players among the top 20 in RAPM

https://web.archive.org/web/20150418192930/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1993.html

along with shooters, the best defense in the playoffs and the best coach - they were absolutely stacked

this all relative to era, though, so magic & isiah has a point when saying the lakers and pistons BEST teams would have beatdown THESE bulls.

i always said the best sixer, laker AND celtics teams beat every version of the bulls in the 90s. the pistons i'm not sure.
Rapm can't be calculated right back then

[mehyaM24]

xRAPM is essentially RPM, which is what ESPN uses today.

ask fpliii if you didn't know.

oh and i agree with magic - his team would destroy those bulls teams :rockon:

[juju151111]

xRAPM is essentially RPM, which is what ESPN uses today.

ask fpliii if you didn't know.

oh and i agree with magic - his team would destroy those bulls teams :rockon:
Its wrong and Fplii advises not to use cause its inaccurate. 97 onwards. I agree with Magic too

[3ball]

xRAPM is essentially RPM, which is what ESPN uses today.

ask fpliii if you didn't know.


Flpiii won't back you up on this - he has a million posts preaching how RAPM requires play-by-play data, which only became available in 1997.





oh and i agree with magic - his team would destroy those bulls teams


Indeed... Magic said the Lakers would destroy the Bulls specifically due to a much weaker supporting cast.

So you agree with this too... :applause: .. :cheers:

[Indian guy]

this all relative to era, though, so magic & isiah has a point when saying the lakers and pistons BEST teams would have beatdown THESE bulls.


Isiah's talking out of his ass when he says that though. Vastly inferior Bulls teams in the late 80's and even that 1990 team were giving the Pistons very competitive series'. None of the 6 championship Bulls teams are losing to the 88-90 Pistons in a playoff series. None.

As far as the Lakers and Celtics are concerned, look at some of the long series' those teams were involved in the 80's. It's not like they were decimating their competition every year. Bulls could've certainly beaten them.

[mehyaM24]

Flpiii won't back you up on this - he has a million posts preaching how RAPM requires play-by-play data, which only became available in 1997.


Its wrong and Fplii advises not to use cause its inaccurate. 97 onwards. I agree with Magic too

its not "wrong" at all.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11939963&postcount=7


RPM is by J.E.'s (J.E. being the creator who supplies it to ESPN) own admission comparable to xRAPM (he said so in this post; I think the difference is he did some fine-tuning with the SPM, or box score prior). You are correct, the 90s xRAPM is 'fake RAPM' (link for details).

This link contains both fake RAPM (90-91 through 99-00) and xRAPM (00-01 and beyond).

Anyhow, you are 100% correct.

they're comparable, therefor OK and ready to use. i had this discussion with him about a week ago :cheers:


Indeed... Magic said the Lakers would destroy the Bulls specifically due to a much weaker supporting cast.

So you agree with this too... :applause: .. :cheers:

relative to competition? sure.

i've always said the lakers and celtics teams of the 80s were superior.

[jayfan]

Isiah's talking out of his ass when he says that though. Vastly inferior Bulls teams in the late 80's and even that 1990 team were giving the Pistons very competitive series'. None of the 6 championship Bulls teams are losing to the 88-90 Pistons in a playoff series. None.


Disagree. Bulls didn't beat the Bad Boys until Detroit started getting old and started losing members. Peak Bad Boys wouldn't have lost to any of the Bulls first 3 championship teams.








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[mehyaM24]

Isiah's talking out of his ass when he says that though. Vastly inferior Bulls teams in the late 80's and even that 1990 team were giving the Pistons very competitive series'. None of the 6 championship Bulls teams are losing to the 88-90 Pistons in a playoff series. None.

As far as the Lakers and Celtics are concerned, look at some of the long series' those teams were involved in the 80's. It's not like they were decimating their competition every year. Bulls could've certainly beaten them.

fwiw, i'm not sure those pistons teams could beat the BEST bulls teams either.

jordan & co already figured them out, and chicago's supporting cast was stronger as the 90s progressed.

the best laker, sixer and celtics teams would have been too much to handle though - they're what we call 'superteams'.

[Showtime80']

You could turn around and say the same thing about the early 90's Bulls, a poor man's version of the Bad Boy Pistons in the New York Knicks led by second tier 80's star Patrick Ewing and friggin JOHN STARKS!!! gave the Bulls fits in 1992 and 1993. Those Knicks wanted to be the Pistons but they never had the talent to do it.

To me the 1989 Pistons are one the most underrated teams of ALL TIME!!! 63 wins and 15-2 in the playoffs with dominating defense, holding teams under 100ppg and 45% FG at a time when teams averaged 110 and shot 49%!!! A killer FIRST TIER leader in Isiah Thomas surrounded by ALL STARS in Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman and Aguirre with the beef in Mahorn, Salley and Edwards and the best offensive bench player of the 80's in the Microwave Vinnie Johnson. That team was the definition of STACKED!!!

Remember, the NBA adopted the flagrant foul rules just before the 1991 season and just in time for the new NBC TV contract. Those rules didn't have an effect on MJ because he was always a beast and contact never bothered him but it made a WORLD of difference for the more mentally fragile guys like Grant, Pippen and Paxson who were always taken out of their games by the Pistons physical play.

The 1989 Pistons take ANY VERSION of the 90's Bulls, specially if we're playing by the old no holds barred REAL NBA RULES of the 80's!

[Indian guy]

Disagree. Bulls didn't beat the Bad Boys until Detroit started getting old and started losing members.

The Bulls took the 1990 Pistons, who won the championship, to 7 games. Then swept them the following year. Heck, MJ and a bunch of stiffs took the '89 Pistons, widely considered to be their best version, to 6 games and even led 2-1 at one point.

There's not a single Bulls team with MJ in the 90's that would've lost to the Bad Boys. Once Pippen and Grant emerged and MJ bought into the triangle, the Bulls were simply on a different level.

[Young X]

People keep acting like those Lakers and Celtics teams were untouchable.

Like the Lakers didn't get backdoor swept by the Sampson/2nd year Olajuwon Rockets in one of those years. Like that same Rockets team didn't take the supposed GOAT team to 6 games.

Yeah that can happen but the Bulls couldn't have beaten them. F*ck outta here.

[AlphaWolf24]

NB4 " doesn't matter because the 90s Bulls weren't playing the 80s Lakers or Celtics.....Bulls had no competition in the 90s ..even when they replaced MJ with a CBA player they still were a contender"

[juju151111]

its not "wrong" at all.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11939963&postcount=7



they're comparable, therefor OK and ready to use. i had this discussion with him about a week ago :cheers:



relative to competition? sure.

i've always said the lakers and celtics teams of the 80s were superior.
Sorry im not using that stat.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most of these 80s teams were better, I somewhat agree with OP and Magic here.

Bulls in 1996 were another animal as far as 90's teams go though. I just don't understand the whole "Well, atlanta took the celtics to 7 games in 2008!" type of arguments. Teams play down to their competition, and there are always matchup problems.

Look at the Bulls losing to Orlando in '95. Once they got Rodman to buff up their frontcourt, it was smooth sailing from there.

[Hey Yo]

You could turn around and say the same thing about the early 90's Bulls, a poor man's version of the Bad Boy Pistons in the New York Knicks led by second tier 80's star Patrick Ewing and friggin JOHN STARKS!!! gave the Bulls fits in 1992 and 1993. Those Knicks wanted to be the Pistons but they never had the talent to do it.

To me the 1989 Pistons are one the most underrated teams of ALL TIME!!! 63 wins and 15-2 in the playoffs with dominating defense, holding teams under 100ppg and 45% FG at a time when teams averaged 110 and shot 49%!!! A killer FIRST TIER leader in Isiah Thomas surrounded by ALL STARS in Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman and Aguirre with the beef in Mahorn, Salley and Edwards and the best offensive bench player of the 80's in the Microwave Vinnie Johnson. That team was the definition of STACKED!!!

Remember, the NBA adopted the flagrant foul rules just before the 1991 season and just in time for the new NBC TV contract. Those rules didn't have an effect on MJ because he was always a beast and contact never bothered him but it made a WORLD of difference for the more mentally fragile guys like Grant, Pippen and Paxson who were always taken out of their games by the Pistons physical play.

The 1989 Pistons take ANY VERSION of the 90's Bulls, specially if we're playing by the old no holds barred REAL NBA RULES of the 80's!
MJ was the reason the league adopted the flagrant foul rules due to him crying about Detroit. Those rules are what really refers to the "Jordan Rules"

To say that contact never bothered MJ is laughable. The new rules were implemented to keep Stern's cash cow in tact and on the floor.

[mehyaM24]

Sorry im not using that stat.

umm, ok :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Look at the Bulls losing to Orlando in '95. Once they got Rodman to buff up their frontcourt, it was smooth sailing from there.


The Bulls were playing WITHOUT a serviceable PF in 1995..

But Jordan already proved that all he needed was an 11/8 power forward to 3-peat (Grant).

11/8 were Grant's career averages and his averages alongside MJ in both RS and PO.. Grant was an 11/8 player.

[Young X]

Bulls in 1996 were another animal as far as 90's teams go though. I just don't understand the whole "Well, atlanta took the celtics to 7 games in 2008!" type of arguments. Teams play down to their competition, and there are always matchup problems.People use those arguments to show that those teams weren't untouchable.

If someone swears the 2005 Spurs (or whoever) couldn't beat the 2008 Celtics I'm gonna bring that up. :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

MJ was the reason the league adopted the flagrant foul rules due to him crying about Detroit. Those rules are what really refers to the "Jordan Rules"

To say that contact never bothered MJ is laughable. The new rules were implemented to keep Stern's cash cow in tact and on the floor.
They took the Pistons to 6 and 7 games in 89 and 90. With young Pip and Grant. They swept them in 91. No rule change stopped that. Also the Pistons were still playing dirty in 91 and so was the knicks but the Bulls still won.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

People use those arguments to show that those teams weren't untouchable.

If someone swears the 2005 Spurs (or whoever) couldn't beat the 2008 Celtics I'm gonna bring that up. :confusedshrug:

They're silly, in my opinion.

Like the Lakers losing to the Rockets in '86. After they acquired Mychal Thompson (as the Bulls did Rodman in 95), they never really looked back. At least not until old age and attrition kicked in, and stopped them from winning.

The best Lakers teams were in '85 and '87, by the way.

[juju151111]

umm, ok :confusedshrug:
Don't trust it sorry.

[Young X]

They're silly, in my opinion.

Like the Lakers losing to the Rockets in '86. After they acquired Mychal Thompson (as the Bulls did Rodman in 95), they never really looked back. At least not until old age and attrition stopped them from winning.

The best Laker teams were in '85 and '87, by the way.Ask someone like Showtime 80' whether the Bulls or even a great team of the newer era could beat the '86 Lakers and I bet you he'll say no.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ask someone like Showtime 80' whether the Bulls or even a great team of the newer era could beat the '86 Lakers and I bet you he'll say no.

Yeah, that's delusional thinking. The '86 Lakers were very beatable, especially against teams with devastating front courts.

Ralph and Hakeem were too much for an out-of-prime Kareem to deal with, hence acquiring Thompson the following summer.

[Hey Yo]

They took the Pistons to 6 and 7 games in 89 and 90. With young Pip and Grant. They swept them in 91. No rule change stopped that. Also the Pistons were still playing dirty in 91 and so was the knicks but the Bulls still won.
Much less contact on MJ after new rules were implemented.

[plowking]

Funny how you like bringing up things like this for MJ, but you won't bring it up for Lebron.

Even at the Heat, there was talk league wide saying that players were no longer scared of the Heat by their 3rd season, and that it was more of a "Lebron and the rest" deal now with the Heat, and not a big 3 anymore.

[Showtime80']

86' Lakers were very beatable my arse!!! Only two teams were better than the Lakers that year, the 86' Celtics who were the greatest team of all time with a front court of Bird, McHale, Parish and Walton and the devastating combo of Olajuwon and Sampson who got red hot at the right time!

Which of the 2015 Final four teams had the powerful front courts to even make the 86' Lakers flinch?!? They would've swept the Hawks, Cavs and Rockets and would've probably lost maybe one game against the Warriors!

[juju151111]

Much less contact on MJ after new rules were implemented.
No less contact and they wrre still playing dirty.

[jlip]

Then the 1994 season happened.

[FKAri]

Hasn't this EXACT thread already been made? :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

Then the 1994 season happened.
A better roster sans MJ than the '91 - '93 teams were? Which concluded in a 2nd round knock out? Yeah real accomplishment from a "contender" (they weren't considered a contender in 1994) there.

:oldlol:

[ShaqTwizzle]

A better roster sans MJ than the '91 - '93 teams were? Which concluded in a 2nd round knock out? Yeah real accomplishment from a "contender" (they weren't considered a contender in 1994) there.


Eh...
The 94 Bullz came literally within a hair of beating NYK and making the CFinals where they would have faced Indiana who they beat in 4/5 reg-season meetings.

Don't act like they weren't a legit contender that year.

They could have very easily made the Finals and faced a Rocket team who they beat in 1/2 reg-season meetings and in the one very close loss Pippen didn't play.

[gcvbcat]

I am a jordan hater here but I have agree with OP, I witnessed jordan's 2nd 3peat & at no point did he (bulls) look beatable...well, maybe during the 98 ECF but there only slim hope.

I wanted someone to come & be better than jordan & media hyped "stars" like penny, g hill, VC, kobe, TMac....no one except kobe came close & though this is a bitter pill to swallow, even kobe is a mere shadow of MJ which in itself is a testament of both MJ & Kobe's greatness. my last ray of hope was put out by ray himself in 2013...you know what I am talking about.

we have had lebron whi has put up amazing numbers for a number of years but he still can't hold a candle to MJ...KD & Curry certainly can't....so MJ is alone on top of the hill.

btw, the likes of abdul, hakeem, shakeel...tend to get overrated. maybe it is the americans way of making those people feel less alienated.

this is probably the longest post I have made on ISH...perhaps I am just feeling nostalgic because I miss the 90s..I miss Pete & Andre & Boris & Michael & Jimbo & Chang & Schumi & Ayrton & Doohan & Romario & Ronaldo & Bebeto & Higuita & Carl Lewis & Beavis & Butthead & MTV & baywatch & Seinfeld & Home Improvement & my frieds & my brother & Bret & Owen & NWO & monday niight Jericho & Razor & TB6 & not having to go to work everyday & playing pooll & Basketball & tennis & running track & video tapes & side B's & mix tapes & my hair & erections & the 100 CC 2 stroke bikes & bollywood movies of the 90s...so many things...I ****ing hate GnR & Nirvana & I ****ing miss them...**** I miss he 90s

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[dhsilv]

Sorry im not using that stat.

I mean they don't have full games in years prior to 97, but i've never been given or heard how many games were missing for each year. Assuming it's prior informed and if we could now what the +/- accuracy is, we could compare it. Though people far too often site player x is better than y based on RAPM scores withing the margin for error....so as long as it's not something over +/- 3 it's reliable as what we have is.

[dhsilv]

Hasn't this EXACT thread already been made? :lol

I swear I wish blocking someone blocked their threads or at least the title of them.

I mean really...Isiah Thomas is being asked about basketball teams as if he knows ANYTHING about the game outside of how to play? What team since 87 has has the talent magic had on that lakers team? If I didn't know threeball has some serious mental problems and he can't help the way he is, I'd seriously be losing it over this crap.

[Hey Yo]

Then the 1994 season happened.
When MJ quit on his championship team right before the season started and in the middle of his contract.

that's beta as ****