Mo Williams vs Goran Dragic

[plowking]

Who would you take both at their peaks?
How about now?

Given the large discrepancies in their contracts, would this alter your decision at all?

[Rocketswin2013]

Dragic easily peak-wise.

The 2014 Suns back court is my all-time favorite so I might be biased but they were incredible to watch and Dragic was a far better creator and playmaker.

now? They're both not too good IMO. It depends on Dragic's defense this year because MW is a blackhole on that end.

[plowking]

Dragic easily peak-wise.

The 2014 Suns back court is my all-time favorite so I might be biased but they were incredible to watch and Dragic was a far better creator and playmaker.

now? They're both not too good IMO. It depends on Dragic's defense this year because MW is a blackhole on that end.

Has Dragic even been to the playoffs? What makes him a better player?

You'd take 20/6/3 for $15 mil a year over 18/4/3 for $8 mil a year?

[Rocketswin2013]

Has Dragic even been to the playoffs? What makes him a better player?

You'd take 20/6/3 for $15 mil a year over 18/4/3 for $8 mil a year?
Dragic missed it in a year where his team was 48-34, that's with Bledsoe missing a third of the year. Easily playoff-caliber.

Mo couldn't lead an offense like Dragic could.

You do have a point with the contracts though.

edit - Dragic was a great contract in his peak. $7,500,000. That was a great deal.

[Springsteen]

Is this even a question?

Were you watching that Suns team 2 years ago before the FO ****ed it up by adding like 4 PGs to the rotation?

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLWjQ7nZTkI

[Kawhi]

Has Dragic even been to the playoffs?
He has, and he personally killed the Spurs.

[dubeta]

Dragic vs Irving is a better comparision atm


Look at both their current season stats, the edge actually goes to Dragic

[RedBlackAttack]

I've never really understood the hype around Dragic. There was a short period where he even had a relatively large and vocal fanbase on ISH. He had one really good season where he put up an efficient 20/6, but he never really came close to duplicating and/or exceeding that production again.

I think the league sort of figured out how to play him and I also think that he's the kind of guy who is going to put up good numbers on a mediocre team as a No. 1 option, but he isn't the kind of player you can build a great team around, nor is he the kind of player who fills in the blanks as a second or third option. Without the offense running primarily through him, he is a pedestrian player in this league.

So, yeah... at his peak, maybe take Dragic if you need a No. 1 option to lead you to 40+ wins and be a borderline playoff team. But, anything other than that and Mo in his prime is a better fit.

Mo's ability to spread the floor as a spot-up shooter alone -- to this day -- puts more stress on defenses than anything Dragic is currently doing in Miami. The funny thing is, Dragic was putting up good shooting numbers in Phoenix, but a lot of that was off the dribble. Take the ball out of his hands and ask him to catch and shoot ... you have horrendous spacing issues.

That's probably Miami's biggest problem (a lack of longrange shooting on the perimeter) and Dragic was supposed to help in that area. He has only made them far worse.



Dragic vs Irving is a better comparision atm


Look at both their current season stats, the edge actually goes to Dragic

lol

[SugarHill]

goran at his best is clearly a better player than mo ever was lol

[plowking]

goran at his best is clearly a better player than mo ever was lol

How is it that on a team where he was the main guy, he could only put up 2ppg more than Mo, who had to share the ball with Bron?

[RedBlackAttack]

How is it that on a team where he was the main guy, he could only put up 2ppg more than Mo, who had to share the ball with Bron?
Mo actually knows how to play beside other players... guys BETTER than him. Dragic has been a pretty massive failure in that area.

Bottom line, Dragic needs to be your best offensive option for him to be a good individual player... and your team is going to be mediocre at best with him as your best player.

That's a conundrum.

[plowking]

Good take on it RBA.

Dragic has absolutely no middle game, and struggles to shoot the ball well over long periods. Not just that, but his penetration game is very overrated, and really only thrives in an open court type game. He struggles to beat his man in the half court.

I honestly think his 20/6 season is one of the most overrated I've seen in a long time. No middle game, can't break down defenders, and struggles in the half court.
All things Mo can give you, and generally what you expect of your PG.

Just to add to that, Dragic is a horrible play maker. This is largely due to his inability to break down his man in the half court and create a drive and kick type play.

[ScalsFan21]

Dragic is the much better player peak for peak. No debate there. Who's in a situation right now better suited to their skillset? Mo of course. It's easy to be a Mo Will-type player and be a cog in LeBron ball, though Mo's also a very good shot creator in his own right.

[dubeta]

Outside of Tony Parker, how many point guards can shoot 50% from the field? Not many


Add in the 6 assists that he averaged, and basically there's no other point guard in the league that has both his efficiency and playmaking







The problem here is Wade, I hate to say it, but Wade's lack of 3 point shooting is clogging the lane for Dragic.



You can't have both players in your backcourt as slashers, there needs to be 1 3 point shooter



And not only can Wade NOT shoot, but he likes to over dribble and take over the offense, therefore Dragic has to catch and shoot when he gets the ball




Bottom line replace Wade for someone like Klay Thompson and Dragic will go back there his 20/6 averages on 50% shooting

[plowking]

Dragic is the much better player peak for peak. No debate there. Who's in a situation right now better suited to their skillset? Mo of course. It's easy to be a Mo Will-type player and be a cog in LeBron ball, though Mo's also a very good shot creator in his own right.

Mo was putting up 17/6/5 before he played with Bron.

He is a far more dynamic player than Dragic ever has been. He can beat his man in the half court, is a better shooter from everywhere on the court, is a better play maker.

I fail to see how Dragic is better.

Outside of his 20/6 season, Mo was the one consistently scoring more too.

[plowking]

Outside of Tony Parker, how many point guards can shoot 50% from the field? Not many


Add in the 6 assists that he averaged, and basically there's no other point guard in the league that has both his efficiency and playmaking







The problem here is Wade, I hate to say it, but Wade's lack of 3 point shooting is clogging the lane for Dragic.



You can't have both players in your backcourt as slashers, there needs to be 1 3 point shooter



And not only can Wade NOT shoot, but he likes to over dribble and take over the offense, therefore Dragic has to catch and shoot when he gets the ball




Bottom line replace Wade for someone like Klay Thompson and Dragic will go back there his 20/6 averages on 50% shooting

Wade is a better shooter inside 19 feet though. Doesn't make sense. Better driver and slasher too. Better playmaker. Why should Wade give way for Dragic?

[Lebronxrings]

dragic.


Lets not act like this guys a scrub just because wade is underachieving and too ball dominant. :oldlol: Dragic carried the suns only 2 seasons ago and was known as a top 5 point guard. The problem is he doesn't get the ball enough because neither him or wade are great off ball players.

Mo Williams? This guy has been a career journeyman, he is a bottom tier pg at best.

[dubeta]

Wade is a better shooter inside 19 feet though. Doesn't make sense. Better driver and slasher too. Better playmaker. Why should Wade give way for Dragic?


Exactly, their skills are redundant, Wade should have developed a 3 point game to space the floor for Dragic


Wade-Ball forces Dragic into being a spot up shooter/floor spreader

[dubeta]

dragic.


Lets not act like this guys a scrub just because wade is underachieving and too ball dominant. :oldlol: Dragic carried the suns only 2 seasons ago and was known as a top 5 point guard. The problem is he doesn't get the ball enough because neither him or wade are great off ball players.

Mo Williams? This guy has been a career journeyman, he is a bottom tier pg at best.

THIS, this was one of the problems in 2011



Not only is Wade not a good 3 point shooter, but his off-ball game is lacking


One of the reasons the Mavs won, was once the ball was in LeBrons hand, they could zone up on him and didn't have to worry about a Wade 3 pointer.


So the defensive pressure on LeBron was about twice it would have normally been


Ask Mark Cuban, I think he explained it in First Take like 3 years ago

[Smoke117]

Wade is a better shooter inside 19 feet though. Doesn't make sense. Better driver and slasher too. Better playmaker. Why should Wade give way for Dragic?

lmfao...really? You are having a debate with dubeta...bro...come on.

[RedBlackAttack]

Exactly, their skills are redundant, Wade should have developed a 3 point game to space the floor for Dragic


Wade-Ball forces Dragic into being a spot up shooter/floor spreader
:wtf:

"Wade-Ball" doesn't "force" Dragic into being a spot-up shooter, because he literally is incapable of being a spot-up shooter. The guy is shooting 25% from three. Whatever the opposite of a "floor-spreader" is, that's Dragic.

People are so short-sighted. There are things more important than how a guy plays as a first option and when offenses run through him. In fact, I'd say a better test of a player's overall skillset is how they react when they're taken out of their comfort zone and asked to play differently.

That's what has happened to Dragic in Miami and suffice to say he has been maybe the most disappointing player in the NBA so far this year. Just a terrible 2nd option and an even worse 3rd option.


Mo Williams is a better all-around player right now, at 33, than Dragic is at 29. You plug Williams into any situation and he will make the team immediately better. He is a pro's pro... a guy every player in the league wants on their team. You replace Dragic with Mo Williams right now on that Miami team and he'd bring them far more impact. And Dragic might be even worse in Cleveland than he is in Miami, because he'd have even less of the offense run through him.

Dragic is a one-dimensional player. Either he dominates the ball or he is inefficient and largely ineffective. More of a negative than a positive.



But yeah... he did have "that one year" when he "put up numbers." :blah


Jeremy Lin had a really good season too.

[VIP2000]

:wtf:

"Wade-Ball" doesn't "force" Dragic into being a spot-up shooter, because he literally is incapable of being a spot-up shooter. The guy is shooting 25% from three. Whatever the opposite of a "floor-spreader" is, that's Dragic.

People are so short-sighted. There are things more important than how a guy plays as a first option and when offenses run through him. In fact, I'd say a better test of a player's overall skillset is how they react when they're taken out of their comfort zone and asked to play differently.

That's what has happened to Dragic in Miami and suffice to say he has been maybe the most disappointing player in the NBA so far this year. Just a terrible 2nd option and an even worse 3rd option.


Mo Williams is a better all-around player right now, at 33, than Dragic is at 29. You plug Williams into any situation and he will make the team immediately better. He is a pro's pro... a guy every player in the league wants on their team. You replace Dragic with Mo Williams right now on that Miami team and he'd bring them far more impact. And Dragic might be even worse in Cleveland than he is in Miami, because he'd have even less of the offense run through him.

Dragic is a one-dimensional player. Either he dominates the ball or he is inefficient and largely ineffective. More of a negative than a positive.



But yeah... he did have "that one year" when he "put up numbers." :blah


Jeremy Lin had a really good season too.

Dragic has been disappointing but he was All-NBA 3rd team 2 seasons ago, and deserved it. He nearly lead a team to the playoffs in the stacked West with a starting lineup of Miles Plumlee, Gerald Green, P.J. Tucker, and Channing Frye.

[masonanddixon]

This is clearly an agenda thread from our resident racist, plowking, but to answer, it's pretty close.

Mo Williams was a very good player who was marginalized by lebron fanbois. Dragic is much bigger and stronger and a much better defender.

plowking again showing his alarming lack of basketball knowledge by forgetting Dragic's run against the Spurs in 09-10.

[masonanddixon]

:wtf:

"Wade-Ball" doesn't "force" Dragic into being a spot-up shooter, because he literally is incapable of being a spot-up shooter. The guy is shooting 25% from three. Whatever the opposite of a "floor-spreader" is, that's Dragic.

People are so short-sighted. There are things more important than how a guy plays as a first option and when offenses run through him. In fact, I'd say a better test of a player's overall skillset is how they react when they're taken out of their comfort zone and asked to play differently.

That's what has happened to Dragic in Miami and suffice to say he has been maybe the most disappointing player in the NBA so far this year. Just a terrible 2nd option and an even worse 3rd option.


Mo Williams is a better all-around player right now, at 33, than Dragic is at 29. You plug Williams into any situation and he will make the team immediately better. He is a pro's pro... a guy every player in the league wants on their team. You replace Dragic with Mo Williams right now on that Miami team and he'd bring them far more impact. And Dragic might be even worse in Cleveland than he is in Miami, because he'd have even less of the offense run through him.

Dragic is a one-dimensional player. Either he dominates the ball or he is inefficient and largely ineffective. More of a negative than a positive.



But yeah... he did have "that one year" when he "put up numbers." :blah


Jeremy Lin had a really good season too.


He's playing with a ball dominant 2 guard in Wade. It's very difficult to look good when the guy you are sharing the backcourt with is taking 20+ shots a night. I don't care how you rationalize it, thats just how basketball works.

[Smoke117]

I've noticed you really have a lot of rage and hate for Dragic...I appreciate the effort, but he's not that bad homie.

[plowking]

He's playing with a ball dominant 2 guard in Wade. It's very difficult to look good when the guy you are sharing the backcourt with is taking 20+ shots a night. I don't care how you rationalize it, thats just how basketball works.

16 shots a game is somehow 20 now?

How were Wade, Bron and Bosh all able to average over 17ppg on the same team? Why can't Dragic? He gets paid the same as Wade and Bosh do.

[DukeDelonte13]

it's situational. Depends on the roster. Mo is more plug and play. He can thrive in a variety of roster configurations. In the right setup Dragic can be more impactful.

[k0kakw0rld]

The man that scores 52 wearing a Timberwolves uniform :pimp:

[masonanddixon]

16 shots a game is somehow 20 now?

How were Wade, Bron and Bosh all able to average over 17ppg on the same team? Why can't Dragic? He gets paid the same as Wade and Bosh do.

Because Dragic is an aggressive point guard who looks to get to the basket at all times and who is best when surrounded by shooters. There's terrible spacing on that Heat starting 5 and Dragic isn't a good spot up shooter. He and Wade don't complement one another well.

[Papaya Petee]

Lol Dubeta and his Lebron alt trying to say Wade isn't a good off the ball player, and that he's at fault for 2011 :roll:
Kill yourself
Wade was the best cutter in the league by far during the big 3 Heat era.

[dubeta]

Lol Dubeta and his Lebron alt trying to say Wade isn't a good off the ball player, and that he's at fault for 2011 :roll:
Kill yourself
Wade was the best cutter in the league by far during the big 3 Heat era.

Nope try again

[iamgine]

Miami can replace Dragic with Jeremy Lin and not miss a beat.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What happened to Dragic

[Mass Debator]

Miami can replace Dragic with Jeremy Lin and not miss a beat.
True. Imagine that $2million contract instead of $208028321million of Dragics

[plowking]

Because Dragic is an aggressive point guard who looks to get to the basket at all times and who is best when surrounded by shooters. There's terrible spacing on that Heat starting 5 and Dragic isn't a good spot up shooter. He and Wade don't complement one another well.

So because he isn't a good spot up shooter, he becomes absolutely worthless despite his enormous contract?

I haven't even seen Jeremy Lin's numbers this season, but he could probably give us the same production for about 13 mil less a season. Patty Mills too. Sessions, Darren Collison, etc.

All back up guards who could do the same thing, while actually being able to shoot the ball slightly better.

[plowking]

I didn't know it was this bad, but Matthew Dellavadova is having a better season than Dragic so far.

This is a guy that couldn't dribble the ball up the court a season ago.

Dragic is a PG with a $90 mil contract and he is 26th in assists per game... and he doesn't make up for it with scoring or efficiency. Could have had Derron Williams for a third of the price too.


In general this whole team is full of overpaid players who don't perform to their pay scale. Wade, Bosh and now Dragic, with Dragic being the newest and the worst case.

[RedBlackAttack]

I didn't know it was this bad, but Matthew Dellavadova is having a better season than Dragic so far.

This is a guy that couldn't dribble the ball up the court a season ago.

Dragic is a PG with a $90 mil contract and he is 26th in assists per game... and he doesn't make up for it with scoring or efficiency. Could have had Derron Williams for a third of the price too.


In general this whole team is full of overpaid players who don't perform to their pay scale. Wade, Bosh and now Dragic, with Dragic being the newest and the worst case.
To be fair, I have no idea what Delly's numbers currently look like, but having watched every Cavs game ... he has been really good. Surprisingly good. It's to the point where I think, now with Kyrie back, I'd have to put Delly among the best backup points in the league.

[plowking]

To be fair, I have no idea what Delly's numbers currently look like, but having watched every Cavs game ... he has been really good. Surprisingly good. It's to the point where I think, now with Kyrie back, I'd have to put Delly among the best backup points in the league.

My point was Dragic was a guy fighting for $90 mil contract this season and got it. Delly was fighting for $3 mil a year, and I'm not sure if he got it or not. :oldlol:

This is who he is competing with given contract situations.

[masonanddixon]

So because he isn't a good spot up shooter, he becomes absolutely worthless despite his enormous contract?

I haven't even seen Jeremy Lin's numbers this season, but he could probably give us the same production for about 13 mil less a season. Patty Mills too. Sessions, Darren Collison, etc.

All back up guards who could do the same thing, while actually being able to shoot the ball slightly better.

No he's just not being utilised properly in the current Miami rotation. It would be like putting John Wall on the Heat and then wondering why he sucks. Neither of those guys are floor spacers and neither are spot up shooters.

A guy like Dragic works ideally with a big man who can spread the floor off the pick and roll, not a paint clogger like Whiteside.

[Smoke117]

No he's just not being utilised properly in the current Miami rotation. It would be like putting John Wall on the Heat and then wondering why he sucks. Neither of those guys are floor spacers and neither are spot up shooters.

A guy like Dragic works ideally with a big man who can spread the floor off the pick and roll, not a paint clogger like Whiteside.

LOL...trust me, things wouldn't be going the same way on the Heat if we had John Wall running the point. We already know bledsoe is way better than dragic...so you do really want to bring one of the 2 or 3 best pg's in the league into this conversation? I don't think so.

[masonanddixon]

LOL...trust me, things wouldn't be going the same way on the Heat if we had John Wall running the point. We already know bledsoe is way better than dragic...so you do really want to bring one of the 2 or 3 best pg's in the league into this conversation? I don't think so.

Wall has been subpar this season and Goran owns him head to head.

Bledsoe is ****ing garbage. Look at his production this month, young man.

[Smoke117]

Wall has been subpar this season and Goran owns him head to head.

Bledsoe is ****ing garbage. Look at his production this month, young man.

I don't honestly believe I could dumb myself down enough to even respond to this with any seriousness...so I won't. :D

[Black and White]

Wall has been subpar this season and Goran owns him head to head.

Bledsoe is ****ing garbage. Look at his production this month, young man.

Wall>>>>>>>>>> Dragic.

[masonanddixon]

Wall>>>>>>>>>> Dragic.

No.

[masonanddixon]

I don't honestly believe I could dumb myself down enough to even respond to this with any seriousness...so I won't. :D

Thats because you're ignorant as ****. Dragic owned him both meetings last season and the season before.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Wall has been subpar this season and Goran owns him head to head.

Bledsoe is ****ing garbage. Look at his production this month, young man.
If Wall has been subpar this season what has Goran been?

[Black and White]

No.

Yes, Wall on the Heat would be a massive upgrade, I would take Wall any day of the week, he's also a much better defender than Dragic.

Dragic is a somewhat one-dimensional player.

[masonanddixon]

If Wall has been subpar this season what has Goran been?

He's been injured and he's getting better. But what do you expect when he only gets ten shots a game?

[masonanddixon]

Yes, Wall on the Heat would be a massive upgrade, I would take Wall any day of the week, he's also a much better defender than Dragic.

Dragic is a somewhat one-dimensional player.

Goran is an excellent defender actually. Quit being racist.

[Black and White]

Goran is an excellent defender actually. Quit being racist.

How am I a racist? I'm just saying John Wall is a better defender, there's nothing wrong with that.

[plowking]

So Goran literally needs the perfect environment to thrive. :oldlol:

Can't wait til we get rid of this garbage. At least Bosh puts up half decent numbers given his ridiculous contract. Goran can't even be better than Mario Chalmers this season.

[masonanddixon]

How am I a racist? I'm just saying John Wall is a better defender, there's nothing wrong with that.

You're assuming that Goran is the worse defender because he's white. He can guard the 1-3 spot and he plays tough defense. Wall may be the better defender but it's not as significant a margin as you think.

[masonanddixon]

So Goran literally needs the perfect environment to thrive. :oldlol:

Can't wait til we get rid of this garbage. At least Bosh puts up half decent numbers given his ridiculous contract. Goran can't even be better than Mario Chalmers this season.

Honestly the Heat would be better off without Wade.

[Black and White]

You're assuming that Goran is the worse defender because he's white. He can guard the 1-3 spot and he plays tough defense. Wall may be the better defender but it's not as significant a margin as you think.

Wtf????

And no, it's not because he's white, Wall is just flat out better.

[plowking]

Honestly the Heat would be better off without Wade.

They would at this point, but we can't do anything about it.

We'd be far better off without Dragic and his ridiculous contract. Wade actually puts up numbers, and has been about 3 times better than Dragic has this season.

You don't pay $90 mil for a guy that takes 10 shots. He is a beta personality that can't even fit in. You don't need to design anything around a $90 mil guy. He should be able to come in and help improve the team regardless. Dragic does none of this.

Terrible half court player that is a terrible playmaker. His playmaking is limited to guys on the 3 point line making shots from his pass, not anything that he has created off a dribble penetration.

It doesn't matter how many shots anyone else on the team is taking, or anything else. At $90 mil a year, you have to be assertive and take charge on a team. John Wall would come here and put up something to the tune of 18/10, and propel this to a sure shot 50 win team.

[Smoke117]

Goran is an excellent defender actually.

http://i.imgur.com/10OgC4i.gif