Jordan's help. Wow.

[sundizz]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

[To4]

1986 Celtics or 1980s Lakers says Hi...

Too lazy to break down every player but some poster will do that for me

[sundizz]

1986 Celtics or 1980s Lakers says Hi...

Too lazy to break down every player but some poster will do that for me

Modern era.

Nobody cares about that stuff - that was a different league, incomparable.

1960's: Racism. Black guys playing against a bunch of janitors.
1970's: The beginning of the the real NBA. A lot of random nonsense. A few transcendent players.
1980's: The first decade of real NBA basketball. The first construct of true teams, franchises and global impact.
1990's - current: Learned from the 80's and rode the aesthetically pleasing game of Jordan and created the modern era. Everything translates.

[Bankaii]

Idk about most stacked team of all time, but without a doubt Jordan's team was stacked as hell and without that stacked team he wouldn't be GOAT.

1-9

Bulls only losing 2 less games after losing him

Multiple things prove his team was stacked af.

[TrueBlue89]

How did you leave out Steve Kerr one of the greatest set shooters of all time arguably the greatest. A shooter every combo guard in history would love to play with.

[nba_55]

Don't forget the most important help: the GOAT coach.

[Young X]

This n!gga named Charles Oakley like he was some kind of great player. F*ck outta here.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Modern era.

Nobody cares about that stuff - that was a different league, incomparable.

1960's: Racism. Black guys playing against a bunch of janitors.
1970's: The beginning of the the real NBA. A lot of random nonsense. A few transcendent players.
1980's: The first decade of real NBA basketball. The first construct of true teams, franchises and global impact.
1990's - current: Learned from the 80's and rode the aesthetically pleasing game of Jordan and created the modern era. Everything translates.

Your 90s "summary" reads like a kindergartner :oldlol:

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

[warriorfan]

The 72-10 Bulls only had two players that made the All-Star Game.

[jstern]

I realize that Kerr is a very famous name. Former analyst, just won an NBA championship as a coach. But can you imagine going back in time to the 90s and saying that the Bulls are stacked because they have Steve Kerr. He's one name in particular, that young teenagers who hate Jordan think he was a hall of fame, All Star player.

Then you have players like Horace Grant. Who would know anything about Horace Grant if he wasn't a name associated with those Bulls team. BJ Armstrong. Are you kidding me?

The Bulls were top heavy, but they did have many role players that knew their role.

[dubeta]

1-9


thats all that needs to be said

[plowking]

Them getting Harper was the equivalent of the current Spurs or Cavs getting a Kevin Martin like player at his peak with Thabo Sefolosha like defense.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[LootOP]

BJ Armstrong? If he kadnt played with MJ, kids like you wouldnt even know he played in the league.

[3ball]

Multiple things prove his team was stacked af.


Actually, MJ needing to score more than anyone in history to win all his rings proves his team wasn't stacked at all.

[3ball]

.
Here's a different way to statistically explain why Curry is more efficient than his peers and fosters the best teamwork, but bear with me a sec...


Here's a list of all the play-types listed on NBA.com, with the percentile rank that 1.00 PPP equates to in each category (the lower the percentile rank, the more efficient the play - as you can see, 1.00 PPP translates to the 60.4 percentile for "off-screen", and the 77.3 percentile for "isolations", so "off-screen" is more efficient):


1) Cut (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/cut/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 18.8 percentile

2) Roll man on screen-rolls (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/roll-man/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 49.3 percentile

3) Off-screen (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/off-screen/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 60.4 percentile

4) Spot-ups (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/spot-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 65.3 percentile

5) Hand-offs (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/hand-off/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 72.4 percentile

6) Isolations (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 77.3 percentile

7) Post-ups (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive): 81.7 percentile

8) Ballhandler on screen-rolls (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Points): 91.7 percentile



HERE'S HOW THIS RELATES TO CURRY'S SUPERIORITY

The least efficient play shown above (ballhandler on screen rolls) constitutes 20-25% of the offense for top wings like Lebron, with another 20-25% coming from similarly low efficient isolations.. Essentially, the top wing players in the league use low efficiency ball-dominance over 50% of the time.

Point guards ALSO use the least efficient options - they're the ballhandler on screen rolls for 40% to 60% of their offense.

But the exception is Steph Curry.. He's the ballhandler on screen-rolls for only 24.2% of his offense and only isolates 10% of the time.. He simply employs the higher efficiency OFF-BALL options more often than his peers.. This is contributes to his superior efficiency.

His off-ball offense not only makes him more efficeint, but this gives teammates more opportunity/time with the ball to be comfortable and play their game..

Unlike Lebron, teammates aren't starved of the ball and don't have to subjugate their game to the whim of the #1 option.. Ultimately, Curry is better because his off-ball play makes him more efficient, while giving his team more capacity to reach a higher level of teamwork and superior play.
.

[3ball]

.
..............................Playoff PPG


... 96' Bulls............... 86' Celtics...............87' Lakers

Jordan.... 30.7........ Bird........ 25.8........ Worthy...... 23.6
Pippen.... 16.9........ McHale.... 24.9........ Magic........ 21.8
Kukoc..... 10.8........ DJ.......... 16.2........ Kareem..... 19.2
Longley.... 8.4........ Ainge...... 15.6........ B Scott...... 14.8
Harper..... 8.8........ Parish..... 15.0........ M Cooper... 13.0
Rodman... 7.5........ Walton...... 7.9........ AC Green... 11.5
S Kerr...... 6.8....... Sichting..... 3.2........ Thompson.... 8.8


There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...

MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most.

[Naero]

Idk about most stacked team of all time, but without a doubt Jordan's team was stacked as hell and without that stacked team he wouldn't be GOAT.

1-9

Bulls only losing 2 less games after losing him

Multiple things prove his team was stacked af.

The 1-9 Pippen-less record only proves that Michael Jordan needed more help to win, but what about the extent of help needed? A substantially impactful difference-maker or a modicum of additive help to get over the hump?

Scottie Pippen was only a bench-player in his first season and thus was mostly impactless in the grander scheme of the games; in fact, in 35 of the Bulls' wins in his rookie season (1987-88), Pippen played less than 25 minutes, while he played in 25-plus minutes in 11 of their losses. He obviously was a positive-impact player overall; but for such a supposedly legendary sidekick, it looks like they didn't need him to be fully serviceable to win enough games to shape the Bulls' playoff-seeding fortunes for the better.

Moreover, in the playoffs, he was mostly a non-factor in 3 of the 4 wins; he notched less than 10 points in 3 of those 4 wins. Better playoffs-seeding

[Bankaii]

[QUOTE=Naero]The 1-9 Pippen-less record only proves that Michael Jordan needed more help to win, but what about the extent of help needed? A substantially impactful difference-maker or a modicum of additive help to get over the hump?

Scottie Pippen was only a bench-player in his first season and thus was mostly impactless in the grander scheme of the games; in fact, in 35 of the Bulls' wins in his rookie season (1987-88), Pippen played less than 25 minutes, while he played in 25-plus minutes in 11 of their losses. He obviously was a positive-impact player overall; but for such a supposedly legendary sidekick, it looks like they didn't need him to be fully serviceable to win enough games to shape the Bulls' playoff-seeding fortunes for the better.

Moreover, in the playoffs, he was mostly a non-factor in 3 of the 4 wins; he notched less than 10 points in 3 of those 4 wins. Better playoffs-seeding

[warriorfan]

Jordan's impact is so overrated, his scoring is so impressive because he played in a GOAT system yet still had the freedom to shoot at will. Of course he scored a lot he shot a lot. Once he left and the ball was shared within the system the team still functioned just fine on offense.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html

93 Bulls(With Jordan): 15th in points per game, 2nd in offensive rating


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

94 Bulls(Without Jordan): 22nd in points per game, 14th in offensive rating




bankaii knows so little about ball its fuccing insane...this cat should just get banned

[Pushxx]

.
..............................Playoff PPG


... 96' Bulls............... 86' Celtics...............87' Lakers

Jordan.... 30.7........ Bird........ 25.8........ Worthy...... 23.6
Pippen.... 16.9........ McHale.... 24.9........ Magic........ 21.8
Kukoc..... 10.8........ DJ.......... 16.2........ Kareem..... 19.2
Longley.... 8.4........ Ainge...... 15.6........ B Scott...... 14.8
Harper..... 8.8........ Parish..... 15.0........ M Cooper... 13.0
Rodman... 7.5........ Walton...... 7.9........ AC Green... 11.5
S Kerr...... 6.8....... Sichting..... 3.2........ Thompson.... 8.8


There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...

MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most.


You know, ****face I took 10 seconds to search because I knew you had to be be bullshitting at least a little:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html
Organize the Per Game category by PTS. For someone that jerks off to 5000x YouTube videos and stats, at least get it right, bitch.

The '87 Lakers and '86 Celtics are better than the '96 Bulls regardless, but I still hate seeing your cancer all over this forum. Nobody would miss you if you got banned you piece of shit.

[Naero]

You try so hard to project yourself as intelligent. It's a basketball forum, not a Harvard application, no one cares.


I don't fuss too much over my self-image or impression management here, but I do care about evolving these discussions more intellectually in general. In this agenda-driven era of ISH, many are complacent with the '1-9,' 2-6,' and so on superficialities more so than taking discussions in-depth.

Instead of denouncing those who are posting agenda-centric threads like the older days of this site, people retort by trying to counter-troll them. The only way to shake out of this dysfunctional culture is by fostering a counterculture wherein these oversimplified arguments are looked down upon, and thus it's a direction I'm more than willing to tackle with my own approaches to these discussions.



Lebron gets hate for not winning in Cleaveland with abysmal help from 2004-10, sane with Kobe pre-Pau, why does Jordan get shielded from it?

They mostly only ever receive flak when the stans try to overrate their impact and denigrate the impact of outranking legends just to prop up their own players.

If it wasn't for these warrantless comparisons of Kobe, LeBron, and—more recently—Curry to Michael Jordan, many more could be appreciative of the impacts they make on their teams; instead, stans overrate them, so of course criticism comes their way for failing where Jordan was more likely to succeed—not as an indictment to those players, but as a testament to Jordan's superior impact.

Really, we do not even need to contextualize the teams too much when comparing these players to Jordan; it can mostly be simplified by boiling it down to a cross-comparison of each player's individual stats. Instead, LeBron and Kobe stans as well as Jordan-detractors always try to concoct these high-context arguments on how Jordan's teams bolstered up his legacy; is that because they're too daunted to compare Kobe's and LeBron's stats to Jordan?



Please explain how the Bulls, after losing "one man army" MJ were able to win only 2 less games and were arguably screwed out of the ECF.

I'll try to explain succinctly what many fail to contextualize about the first year of the Jordan-less Bulls.

The majority of the Bulls' roster underachieved in 1992-93. By coming off of the heels of a two-peat, which is when we've seen most teams suffer the "hangover effect"—the abating of the same motivation that propelled them to achieve those championships, as they grew complacent and did not feel the same chip on their shoulder.

Jordan—renowned as one of the most intense competitors in NBA history—was among the few who maintained the same motivation, and he had to impose his impact more than ever; in fact, it took a 41-PPG NBA Finals performance from him to narrowly win against the Phoenix Suns.

Then once Jordan unexpectedly retired, the chip on the team's shoulder was re-instilled, as everyone ruled them out from repeating and thus they were remotivated despite coming off of the heals of a three-peat. They channeled that motivation into improved defensive efforts, but it became obvious over time that their offense suffered irredeemably without Jordan around—resulting in their first playoffs-series loss to the New York Knicks in the Jordan era.

Moreover, teams can only thrive for so long without their leading superstar. It's not uncommon for there to be a honeymoon period where they lose their target on their back due to lowered expectations, and a combination of wrinkled game plans and an infusion of energy from previously underplayed players propels them to overachieve. Without that superstar to constantly force opponents to make adjustments, however, other teams will eventually devise a solid strategy to upend them; that was evident in the 1994-95 season, where the Bulls started to collapse and needed Jordan to spearhead a season-ending run for "decent" playoffs-seeding.

Also, when the vaunted 1994 Bulls are brought up, why is it never mentioned that the 1993-94 Bulls were retooled with new additions in Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr? In Jordan's first full season with them—albeit, in addition to Rodman but also with the loss of Horace Grant—he led them a record-breaking amount of wins in the historic 1995-96 72-win season.

[97 bulls]

I don't fuss too much over my self-image or impression management here, but I do care about evolving these discussions more intellectually in general. In this agenda-driven era of ISH, many are complacent with the '1-9,' 2-6,' and so on superficialities more so than taking discussions in-depth.

Instead of denouncing those who are posting agenda-centric threads like the older days of this site, people retort by trying to counter-troll them. The only way to shake out of this dysfunctional culture is by fostering a counterculture wherein these oversimplified arguments are looked down upon, and thus it's a direction I'm more than willing to tackle with my own approaches to these discussions.



They mostly only ever receive flak when the stans try to overrate their impact and denigrate the impact of outranking legends just to prop up their own players.

If it wasn't for these warrantless comparisons of Kobe, LeBron, and—more recently—Curry to Michael Jordan, many more could be appreciative of the impacts they make on their teams; instead, stans overrate them, so of course criticism comes their way for failing where Jordan was more likely to succeed—not as an indictment to those players, but as a testament to Jordan's superior impact.

Really, we do not even need to contextualize the teams too much when comparing these players to Jordan; it can mostly be simplified by boiling it down to a cross-comparison of each player's individual stats. Instead, LeBron and Kobe stans as well as Jordan-detractors always try to concoct these high-context arguments on how Jordan's teams bolstered up his legacy; is that because they're too daunted to compare Kobe's and LeBron's stats to Jordan?



I'll try to explain succinctly what many fail to contextualize about the first year of the Jordan-less Bulls.

The majority of the Bulls' roster underachieved in 1992-93. By coming off of the heels of a two-peat, which is when we've seen most teams suffer the "hangover effect"—the abating of the same motivation that propelled them to achieve those championships, as they grew complacent and did not feel the same chip on their shoulder.

Jordan—renowned as one of the most intense competitors in NBA history—was among the few who maintained the same motivation, and he had to impose his impact more than ever; in fact, it took a 41-PPG NBA Finals performance from him to narrowly win against the Phoenix Suns.

Then once Jordan unexpectedly retired, the chip on the team's shoulder was re-instilled, as everyone ruled them out from repeating and thus they were remotivated despite coming off of the heals of a three-peat. They channeled that motivation into improved defensive efforts, but it became obvious over time that their offense suffered irredeemably without Jordan around—resulting in their first playoffs-series loss to the New York Knicks in the Jordan era.

Moreover, teams can only thrive for so long without their leading superstar. It's not uncommon for there to be a honeymoon period where they lose their target on their back due to lowered expectations, and a combination of wrinkled game plans and an infusion of energy from previously underplayed players propels them to overachieve. Without that superstar to constantly force opponents to make adjustments, however, other teams will eventually devise a solid strategy to upend them; that was evident in the 1994-95 season, where the Bulls started to collapse and needed Jordan to spearhead a season-ending run for "decent" playoffs-seeding.

Also, when the vaunted 1994 Bulls are brought up, why is it never mentioned that the 1993-94 Bulls were retooled with new additions in Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr? In Jordan's first full season with them—albeit, in addition to Rodman but also with the loss of Horace Grant—he led them a record-breaking amount of wins in the historic 1995-96 72-win season.
The bold is not a fair assessment. The Bulls has no front line to speak off in 95. Guys like Grant, King, and Williams left. And we're replaced by Larry Krystkwiak, and Dickie Simpkins. You can't remove quality players and not competently replace them and still expect lofty results.

Even before Jordan returned the Bulls on pace to win 44 games roughly. Is it far fetched to think that if Grant and co. had remained, the Bulls win 50 to 53 games????

[eeeeeebro]

pippen was 16 ppg player.. people have him hyped like he was jimmy buttler level of play.

but of all them players i like horace grant and denis rodman and pippen

the rest of them were trash - good shooters but there are plenty of good shooters in the league.

[diamenz]

jordan had plenty of help, but so did bird and so did magic - it's what made those teams so great.

i get that you're trying to bash mj though. it's pretty pointless with all of the rape he dished out during the eighties with that shit bulls team.

[Da_Realist]

[QUOTE=Naero]The 1-9 Pippen-less record only proves that Michael Jordan needed more help to win, but what about the extent of help needed? A substantially impactful difference-maker or a modicum of additive help to get over the hump?

Scottie Pippen was only a bench-player in his first season and thus was mostly impactless in the grander scheme of the games; in fact, in 35 of the Bulls' wins in his rookie season (1987-88), Pippen played less than 25 minutes, while he played in 25-plus minutes in 11 of their losses. He obviously was a positive-impact player overall; but for such a supposedly legendary sidekick, it looks like they didn't need him to be fully serviceable to win enough games to shape the Bulls' playoff-seeding fortunes for the better.

Moreover, in the playoffs, he was mostly a non-factor in 3 of the 4 wins; he notched less than 10 points in 3 of those 4 wins. Better playoffs-seeding

[Bankaii]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html

93 Bulls(With Jordan): 15th in points per game, 2nd in offensive rating


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

94 Bulls(Without Jordan): 22nd in points per game, 14th in offensive rating




bankaii knows so little about ball its fuccing insane...this cat should just get banned
Your reading comprehension is disgusting low.

Please point out where I said the Bulls offense was equal to/better after Jordan left

Of course the offense was better with Jordan, he's the GOAT scorer. But the fact that the Bulls still won 2 less games and almost made the ECF just a year after his departure proves they were stifled without him and still have a solid offensive system.

In 2010 the Cavs had s ORTG of 111.2 (6th) and after Lebron left in 2011 it went down to 102.2 (29th). You would be willing to give Lebron the same regards as Jordan due to the even more drastic reduction in offensive production would you?

You follow me around and try so hard to get at me, hop off my nuts loser. Go hop onto one of your other alts so I can hand you a L on there too.

[TAZORAC]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

Bulls had 4th best record in the NBA when Jordan retired the first time....the 4th, 2nd best team in the EAST behind the Knicks.

[Bankaii]

[QUOTE=Naero]Instead, LeBron and Kobe stans as well as Jordan-detractors always try to concoct these high-context arguments on how Jordan's teams bolstered up his legacy; is that because they're too daunted to compare Kobe's and LeBron's stats to Jordan?



I'll try to explain succinctly what many fail to contextualize about the first year of the Jordan-less Bulls.

The majority of the Bulls' roster underachieved in 1992-93. By coming off of the heels of a two-peat, which is when we've seen most teams suffer the "hangover effect"

[3ball]

.
Pippen's defense is overrated - Pip couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif..



But just a few months earlier, 35-year old Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

Btw, Pippen's inferior defense isn't only shown by the eye test - the stats prove it too - virtually every decent wing in the league went off for HUGE games on Pippen - 35, 40, and 50 point games - whereas MJ rarely gave up a big game to anyone.
.

[Wade's Rings]

You try so hard to project yourself as intelligent. It's a basketball forum, not a Harvard application, no one cares.
Lebron gets hate for not winning in Cleaveland with abysmal help from 2004-10, sane with Kobe pre-Pau, why does Jordan get shielded from it?

:roll:


Please explain how the Bulls, after losing "one man army" MJ were able to win only 2 less games and were arguably screwed out of the ECF.

The Bulls had won 2 straight Finals and had made 2 straight ECF trips in '89 and '90. They coasted a bit more in the Regular Season and won 57 Games. Plus in '94 they added Kukoc and Kerr.

Also, if Kukoc misses the Game-Winner in Game 3 then the Bulls more then likely get swept or finished off in 5. If that misses they may not have even been in position to "get screwed".


Jordan's impact is so overrated, his scoring is so impressive because he played in a GOAT system yet still had the freedom to shoot at will. Of course he scored a lot he shot a lot. Once he left and the ball was shared within the system the team still functioned just fine on offense.

So why did he put up 35/7/7 on 52% shooting in the 80s Playoffs before Phil and the "GOAT system"?

[3ball]

.
..........................................Hand-checking



Here's real hand-checking - it's harder to get off jumpers and drive against this kind of defense:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-13-2015/p8lMrn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/Iz_v-D.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/ePuSyn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/V2-pAN.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/7NXaIu.gif



The defense Curry faces is like flag football by comparison - no touch, hands-off, league-mandated space between players on perimeter:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-03-2015/TgIP3N.gif



Also, hand-checking was MOST prevalent and effective during the act of driving, like the gifs below (these are fouls in today's game):


https://media.giphy.com/media/TJPk9OncuzZoQ/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/t99KQtLZZeVS8/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-02-2015/p6jsvL.gif



Compare to Steph Curry driving the lane against Lebron, UNTOUCHED AND UNFETTERED - I almost feel sorry for Lebron - he can't lay a finger on Curry - he's helpless:


https://media.giphy.com/media/jTvD0KKh8KCgo/giphy.gif


NO COMPARISON
.

[3ball]

.
............................................Defens ive 3 Seconds


Zone defense is not allowed inside today's paint - inside the 16 x 19 foot paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" (about 3 feet) of an offensive player, or vacate the paint - essentially, defenders can't stay in the lane with no one else around (within armslength).. "Armslength" is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible other than making defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the policy governing the most important part of the floor - the paint:


"A defensive player is not allowed inside the key area for more than three seconds unless he is guarding the player with the ball or is actively guarding any opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within an arms length of an opponent. If an offensive player moves through the key, the defender must be within an arms length, and also move along with the offensive player. He can not just stand there and put his arms out to get a new three second count."


In the gif below, notice how Duncan's defender (Pau) is reaching out and touching Duncan - Pau is making sure he remains within "armslength", as stipulated by the defensive 3 second rule.. He isn't allowed to wait under the rim, since that's 8 feet away from Duncan, and out of "armslength".. Since Pau must hug Duncan instead of waiting under the rim, Kawhi gets a wide open, uncontested dunk:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/-GwNKZ.gif



Here's another example - Maurice Speights must follow Tristan Thompson to the block to stay within "armslength", which prevents him from contesting Lebron at the rim - you can see how wide the paint is on this angle (16 feet wide).


https://media.giphy.com/media/qoijGMUGGV4dO/giphy.gif



But in previous eras, defenders were allowed to stand under the rim while their man was on the block because defenders could paint-camp "with no time limitation" when their man was within 3 feet of the paint:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


With defenders camping under the rim, Kawhi would NOT have gotten a wide open dunk in previous eras:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/Rc9D-4.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/mPufIB.gif


Btw, look how much defenders are sagging off their man - yet many ignoramuses think defenders in previous eras had to "follow" their man to the 3-point line - it's pure made-up lies from ignoramuses... Plain and simple... That myth is busted here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390392), where the rules of the game are explained.
.

[oarabbus]

Hey 3Ball, how far in the playoffs did the Bulls go in the 94-95 season without Jordan?

With such a shitty team and minus Jordan, they should presumably have had a losing record and missed the playoffs with that talentless roster correct?

Can anybody fact check this for me :confusedshrug:

[sd3035]

Oran's teammates made up for his deficiencies on defense and shooting the ball

[3ball]

.
.................................................. .Spacing


In the picture below, weakside floor-spreaders (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Noah doesn't leave #20 Mosgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders on it.


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



Otoh, previous eras didn't have weakside floor-spreaders (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders - there are already multiple defenders standing where today's defender would flood to:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif


Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders are already in closer proximity and the rotations aren't necessary.
3-point shooting spaces-out defenders.. Accordingly, the level of spacing in a given era affects the way defense is played - defenders either make extra rotations due to 3-point shooting/spaced-out defenders (today's era), or defenders have less rotations due to no spacing/bunched-up defenders (previous eras).

Ultimately, improvements in spacing over the years have been offset by extra rotations on defense, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004.

The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.. Specifically, the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken in previous eras resulted in higher offensive rebounding rate, which inflated ORtg.. That's how the stat is calculated - notice how (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) as 3-pointers increase over the years, offensive rebounding rate declines, which reduced ORtg.. Nonetheless, the rule changes in 2005 (hand-check ban and defensive 3 seconds) began to inflate ORtg again, and it reached all-time highs from 2008-2011.

But again, regardless of these minor shifts, ORtg has remained within the 105-108 range for 30 years - stable ORtg over the years proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras)

Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders are already in closer proximity and the rotations aren't necessary.

Spacing and defensive movement offset each other, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1998-2004.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).
.

[sd3035]

The Bulls were only two games better with Oran

[3ball]

Oran's teammates made up for his deficiencies on defense and shooting the ball


Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:


"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s




Then Costas asked Isiah about Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:


"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."



Later in the interview, Costas asked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=5m00s) Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever:


"I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah."



^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - that's how dominant he was.. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).

[3ball]

The Bulls were only a run-of-the-mill 2nd Round team without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him - that's the goat drop-off


fixed

[f0und]

the 94 Bulls team has become the most overrated team in history.

50+ win overachieving teams happen EVERY year. it doesnt mean they're title contenders and 99% of the time they get exposed in the playoffs. hell, look at last years Hawks. they won over 60. why isnt anyone riding their nuts.

[ShawkFactory]

the 94 Bulls team has become the most overrated team in history.

50+ win overachieving teams happen EVERY year. it doesnt mean they're title contenders and 99% of the time they get exposed in the playoffs. hell, look at last years Hawks. they won over 60. why isnt anyone riding their nuts.
The thing is though...the Hawks were swept by the Eastern power last year.

The Bulls had a very real chance of winning.

[sd3035]

Jordan is good for an extra two wins over an 82 game season :applause:

[f0und]

The thing is though...the Hawks were swept by the Eastern power last year.

The Bulls had a very real chance of winning.

they lost in the second round and they were lucky to make it as far as they did. did anyone really think they were title contenders at the time?

[oarabbus]

They were eliminated in 2nd Round without Jordan, which is an utterly massive drop-off from being a 3-peat dynasty.

Of course, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.


Wow, how did they make it to the second round if all of Jordan's teammates were terrible? Was it a weak era? What's the deal here?

[Pushxx]

Wow, how did they make it to the second round if all of Jordan's teammates were terrible? Was it a weak era? What's the deal here?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :cheers:

[3ball]

Wow, how did they make it to the second round if all of Jordan's teammates were terrible? Was it a weak era? What's the deal here?
3-peat, GOAT chemistry

you guys are incompetant

[iamgine]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?
You forgot GOAT coach Phil Jackson.

[Bankaii]

:roll:



The Bulls had won 2 straight Finals and had made 2 straight ECF trips in '89 and '90. They coasted a bit more in the Regular Season and won 57 Games. Plus in '94 they added Kukoc and Kerr.

Also, if Kukoc misses the Game-Winner in Game 3 then the Bulls more then likely get swept or finished off in 5. If that misses they may not have even been in position to "get screwed".



So why did he put up 35/7/7 on 52% shooting in the 80s Playoffs before Phil and the "GOAT system"?
Your obsession with Lebron is scary. His help was abysmal, get over it.
Wade couldn't even get outbid the 1st round when he had bad help.:oldlol:

The Bulls also lost players. I don't care for your stupid hypothetical. Point is the Bulls were one screw job from the ECF and only won 2 less games without the GOAT.

You're reading comprehension is low. I didn't say anything about stats. I said his IMPACT was overrated. That is shown by 1-9 before the GOAT coach and stacked team.

[Bankaii]

Lebron wasn't the only guy that left - 5 other guys also left, including 3 starters: Mo Williams (injury), Varajao (injury), Delonte, Shaq and Zydrunas also left.

Otoh, the Bulls only lost Jordan in 1994 - and their ORtg fell from the 113-115 range during 1991-1993 (#1 all-time), to 106.1 in 1994 (14th in league).

And keep in mind that Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs teams had HORRIFIC chemistry, which resulted in being upset by a lower seed in the playoffs each year.. So Lebron's departure not only removed his talent, but left the team mired in horrific playing style and chemistry.

Otoh, when Jordan left the Bulls, he left the team with THREE-PEAT, GOAT chemistry... New fans simply can't process the concept of chemistry... It isn't tangible enough for them - however, chemistry is THE reason more talented teams get upset by less talented teams, which never happened to MJ (but happened to Lebron a lot).
You mentioning 37 yo Shaq and 35 yo Big Z whom average 5 PPG the next year and both retired after that next year shows how shook you are.

The Heat also had a drop in PPG and ORTG after Lebron left and it has never been as high since, what your excuse for that.

Chemistry doesn't get you 2 less win after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.

[3ball]

.
...............Jordan's jumpshot was better than Curry's from inside 20 feet:



.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <---- links to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 47.2%, 53 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 54.8%, 42 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 39.7%, 78 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016: 45.1%, 82 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 31.9%, 119 fga


Anyone who disagrees that MJ is a better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet must explain why Curry shoots far worse percentage inside 20 feet on one-fifth the volume..
.

[3ball]

You mentioning 37 yo Shaq and 35 yo Big Z whom average 5 PPG the next year and both retired after that next year shows how shook you are.


I mentioned Mo Williams, Varejao and Delonte too, since they ALSO left the Cavs in 2011 - but you ignore these major pieces because you're biased and in the tank for Lebeta.

Also, Shaq was a major piece - he averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks for the Cavs in 2010.. That's way better than Cartwright.





Chemistry doesn't get you 2 less win after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.


Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.

Also, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.





The Heat also had a drop in PPG and ORTG after Lebron left and it has never been as high since, what your excuse for that.


I don't need an excuse for that one - the Heat's drop-off offensively wasn't near as much as the Bulls dropped off without Jordan.





Chemistry doesn't get you 2nd Round after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.


The Bulls 3-peated with Jordan... When he left, they were a 2nd Round team.

Are you ****ing retarded or do you understand how big of a gap that is?

Do you know how many ordinary, pedestrian teams make the 2nd Round??.. It's not an accomplishment..

3-peat, goat chemistry gets you to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened.
.

[Bankaii]

I mentioned Mo Williams, Varejao and Delonte too, since they ALSO left the Cavs in 2011 - but you ignore these major pieces because you're biased and in the tank for Lebeta.

Also, Shaq was a major piece - he averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks for the Cavs in 2010.. That's way better than Cartwright.
Andy was averaging 9 points in 2010, and 9 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Mo was averaging 16 points in 2010, and 13 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Delonte was averaging 9 points in 2010.

Outside of Mo you're seriously nitpicking role player numbers? You also are significantly excluding the addition of Baron Davis and Ramon Sessions, both double digit scorers, along with increased production of Boobie Gibson, Jamison, and Hickson to cover these players.

Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from them becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.

Even after additions of Kyrie, Waiters, TT, etc the team was never even at league average. But you slurp Jordan so hard you would never admit Lebron had a all time great impact.


Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.

Also, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Nothing you say is a fact 3ball, is always 90% conjecture. MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot. That's it. When he left the system allowed talented players to increase production and still be a solid team.

And I never said that quit making shit up. The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.

They made the 2nd round and 55 wins because they were talented within a GOAT system, get over it.



I don't need an excuse for that one - the Heat's drop-off offensively wasn't near as much as the Bulls dropped off without Jordan.
The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?




The Bulls 3-peated with Jordan... When he left, they were a 2nd Round team.

Are you ****ing retarded or do you understand how big of a gap that is?

Do you know how many ordinary, pedestrian teams make the 2nd Round??.. It's not an accomplishment..

3-peat, goat chemistry gets you to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened.
.
The Heat went to every Finals and won back to back title when Lebron was there. After he left they missed the playoffs and the 5th seed right now.

Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?

[ShaqTwizzle]

The 1994 Bullz came within literally a hair of beating the Knick's in the 2nd round.

Had they advanced they would have faced Indiana in the CFinal's who they beat in 4/5 reg-season meetings.

So... very, very good chance they would have made the Final's that year had they gotten by NYK.

Then in the Final's they would have faced a Rocket team they beat in 1/2 reg-season meetings.
Pippen didn't play in the one loss and they still almost won.

Maybe they don't beat Hakeem but making the Finals was clearly a strong possibility for that team and shows they were a legit contender.

[Hey Yo]

Andy was averaging 9 points in 2010, and 9 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Mo was averaging 16 points in 2010, and 13 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Delonte was averaging 9 points in 2010.

Outside of Mo you're seriously nitpicking role player numbers? You also are significantly excluding the addition of Baron Davis and Ramon Sessions, both double digit scorers, along with increased production of Boobie Gibson, Jamison, and Hickson to cover these players.

Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from them becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.

Even after additions of Kyrie, Waiters, TT, etc the team was never even at league average. But you slurp Jordan so hard you would never admit Lebron had a all time great impact.


Nothing you say is a fact 3ball, is always 90% conjecture. MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot. That's it. When he left the system allowed talented players to increase production and still be a solid team.

And I never said that quit making shit up. The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.

They made the 2nd round and 55 wins because they were talented within a GOAT system, get over it.



The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?




The Heat went to every Finals and won back to back title when Lebron was there. After he left they missed the playoffs and the 5th seed right now.

Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?
3ball got his ass handed to him with this one

[Wade's Rings]

Your obsession with Lebron is scary. His help was abysmal, get over it.
Wade couldn't even get outbid the 1st round when he had bad help.:oldlol:

For sure obsessed with Bron. All my threads are dedicated to him and a good amount of my posts, excellent deduction :applause:

No his help wasn't. From '06-'10 he had a great defense and good rebounding team. They were competitive even when Lebron wasn't playing great in Playoff Series.


The Bulls also lost players. I don't care for your stupid hypothetical. Point is the Bulls were one screw job from the ECF and only won 2 less games without the GOAT.

What players outside of Jordan?

Your whole last sentence lacks context which I posted about earlier. I should've expected you to just deflect though, what else is new?


You're reading comprehension is low. I didn't say anything about stats. I said his IMPACT was overrated. That is shown by 1-9 before the GOAT coach and stacked team.

Your post said his scoring was impressive because he had offensive freedom in the GOAT system. I responded showing his Playoff numbers before Phil & the GOAT system and asked why did he put those numbers if the GOAT system made his scoring impressive? You don't even know what the f*ck your posting, don't talk about my reading comprehension you moron.

[plowking]

Harper was garbage... the same way mitch richmond was for the lakers... it happens to guys.. they get old.

He came off a 20/6/5 season prior to joining the Bulls...

All that changed on the Bulls was that he was used as one of the primary defenders.

Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.

[sd3035]

Are you ****ing retarded
.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dklv2XToGx0/hqdefault.jpg

[3ball]

Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from the 2011 Cavs becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.


The 2011 Cavs lost literally half their team - they lost 4 starters (Mo Williams, Shaq, Lebron, Antawn Jamison), plus various other 25+ mpg players (Delonte, Varejao, Zydrunas) - this would cause any team's ORtg to be horrible.

This isn't remarkable at all - it's standard... When a team loses 4 starters AND 3 other role players - literally half their team - they will fall to the bottom.. So there's no need to be amazed bud.





MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot.


This is easily disproven by simple stats - Jordan was more efficient than Lebron, Kobe, and Wade in FG%, TS%, and ORtg - that's all the efficiency measures.

If Lebron or Kobe could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at higher volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg





When MJ left the system, it allowed players to increase production and still be a solid team.


Again, this is easily disproven by stats.. When Jordan left in 1994, Pippen's stats didn't improve from his highs alongside Jordan:

Pippen 1992: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. 7.0 apg.. 50.6 fg
Pippen 1994: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. 5.6 apg.. 49.1 fg

Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..

So your dead wrong that when MJ left, everyone's stats went up - that's complete bullshit.. Instead, it's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan.





The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.


You must be a teenager to say something so stupid - experience is part of chemistry.

And since you agree that the 1991 Bulls couldn't have won 55 without MJ, you concede the journey was accumulative - the gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.





They made the 2nd round and 55 wins because they were talented within a GOAT system, get over it.


We know for a fact that the Bulls supporting cast wasn't talented because they needed MJ to score a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever, while also assisting on the highest proportion of teammate field goals (team leader in assist % every year) and playing goat-level defense.

MJ's goat scoring load included 50% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (during the time he was on the floor).. Compare that to Lebron's 14% to 35% of his team's 4th quarter points - these are well-documented statistical facts (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376) that show Lebron is nowhere near carrying the load MJ did.





The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?


Wade and Bosh were hurt half the year.. It's amazing that you could overlook this.

Apparently, you'll say ANYTHING and overlook the obvious points that refute what you want to believe.. i.e. Wade/Bosh injuries.. Jordan's superior efficiency.. Pippen/Grant's unchanged stats when Jordan left..

I mean, it's remarkable how wrong you are on virtually everything.. and it's due to your blind bias and penchant for liking Lebron's rigid, bumbling, unskilled game (at least compared to MJ)





Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?


The 2014 Heat were a FAR worse team than the 1993 Bulls, as the 2014 Finals demonstrated.

The 54-win Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team.

So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?

[Pushxx]

3ball is the biggest bitch made trash I've seen on this forum, and that's including guys like Clippersfan that stroked it to Blake and Bledsoe on the daily. Jabbar start that ban thread again.

[Straight_Ballin]

Lol 3ball making morons look stupid as always. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

fixed
They also passed the first round because the team they face was injured

[guy]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

You added guys that weren't that great in the first place and/or weren't that great when they played with Jordan. Why didn't you add George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, Robert Parish, Rip Hamilton, and Jerry Stackhouse while you were at it ? :oldlol:

By the way, funny how you paint this picture like Jordan played with all these guys at once. If you did the same thing for Kobe and Lebron, then Kobe must've played with Shaq, Gasol, Rice, and Payton with Howard, Malone, Nash and Rodman off the bench and Lebron had Bosh, Love, Wade, Kyrie starting alongside him all at once.

[guy]

Them getting Harper was the equivalent of the current Spurs or Cavs getting a Kevin Martin like player at his peak with Thabo Sefolosha like defense.

Absolutely ridiculous.

The f*ck? :oldlol:

[ShaqTwizzle]

They also passed the first round because the team they face was injured

Injuries are part of the game and either way they came within a hair of beating the Knick's and they beat Indiana in 4/5 games during the reg-season.

They could have easily made the Final's that year.
They were a legit contender that year.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The f*ck? :oldlol:

The crazy part is that people like him actually believe that to be an apt comparison lol. He's FAR closer to Sefalosha's defense than prime Martin's offense in '96-'98.

[Bankaii]

For sure obsessed with Bron. All my threads are dedicated to him and a good amount of my posts, excellent deduction :applause:
Glad you're aware. You follow me around and comment on the majority of my Lebron/Wade posts. We get it you don't like Lebron, but go troll a Lebron stan I honestly don't care.


No his help wasn't. From '06-'10 he had a great defense and good rebounding team. They were competitive even when Lebron wasn't playing great in Playoff Series.
His help was so great that he either led or was tied in points, assists, rebounds(0.4 difference), blocks (0.2 difference), steals.
Quite the crap man, take Lebron off that team from 06-10 and replace him with anyone not name Kobe and they get rekted in the first round every year.



What players outside of Jordan?

Your whole last sentence lacks context which I posted about earlier. I should've expected you to just deflect though, what else is new?
You stated their previous trips and that they gained Kukoc and Kerr. Longley was hurt most of the season and Kukoc and Kerr's combined >20 ppg scoring doesn't cover the GOAT scorer leaving.


Your post said his scoring was impressive because he had offensive freedom in the GOAT system. I responded showing his Playoff numbers before Phil & the GOAT system and asked why did he put those numbers if the GOAT system made his scoring impressive? You don't even know what the f*ck your posting, don't talk about my reading comprehension you moron.[/QUOTE]
Before I stated that I prefaced it with "his IMPACT was overrated", but I did say his scoring was good due to his freedom in the GOAT system. I didn't mention his scoring in his earlier years because he scored alot but it resulted in losing. But continue name calling as if you know me.

[Bankaii]

The 2011 Cavs lost literally half their team - they lost 4 starters (Mo Williams, Shaq, Lebron, Antawn Jamison), plus various other 25+ mpg players (Delonte, Varejao, Zydrunas) - this would cause any team's ORtg to be horrible.
Jamison was on the 2011 team and healthy for a good portion of the season. And you were talking about scoring output which I addressed, not starters/25+ MPG player, quit moving the posts bro. You keep bringing up role players and players that retired the next year.



This isn't remarkable at all - it's standard... When a team loses 4 starters AND 3 other role players - literally half their team - they will fall to the bottom.. So there's no need to be amazed bud.
Why did the team never even come close to that offensive production, even after attaining more players and getting multiple lottery picks?



This is easily disproven by simple stats - Jordan was more efficient than Lebron, Kobe, and Wade in FG%, TS%, and ORtg - that's all the efficiency measures.

If Lebron or Kobe could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at higher volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg
I've already destroyed this post multiple times, quit posting it.
The difference in their TS% is so little that it's insignificant. Also when you apply context, I won't even try because you don't know the meaning of context, they are equal efficiency wise.
Jordan scored more because he shot more. I already proved this to you, I'm not doing it again.



Again, this is easily disproven by stats.. When Jordan left in 1994, Pippen's stats didn't improve from his highs alongside Jordan:

Pippen 1992: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. 7.0 apg.. 50.6 fg
Pippen 1994: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. 5.6 apg.. 49.1 fg

Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..

So your dead wrong that when MJ left, everyone's stats went up - that's complete bullshit.. Instead, it's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan.
Grant and Pippen are the only two players on the team?
They play in an equal opportunity system, only Jordan had the freedom to shoot at his own pace.
They both had their career highs without Jordan, that's not a coincidence.



You must be a teenager to say something so stupid - experience is part of chemistry.

And since you agree that the 1991 Bulls couldn't have won 55 without MJ, you concede the journey was accumulative - the gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Experience can be gained without chemistry you dumbass. Pippen grew up with Jordan, he had no experience regardless of chemistry.

I don't agree to shit, and I don't do hypothetical situations.

MJ led them there before the 55 win season because Jordan was there since the beginning, there's no plausible way to know if they could have done i t in 1991. How stupid are you?



We know for a fact that the Bulls supporting cast wasn't talented because they needed MJ to score a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever, while also assisting on the highest proportion of teammate field goals (team leader in assist % every year) and playing goat-level defense.

MJ's goat scoring load included 50% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (during the time he was on the floor).. Compare that to Lebron's 14% to 35% of his team's 4th quarter points - these are well-documented statistical facts (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376) that show Lebron is nowhere near carrying the load MJ did.
This is the same copy/paste bullcrap. MJ shot more.



Wade and Bosh were hurt half the year.. It's amazing that you could overlook this.

Apparently, you'll say ANYTHING and overlook the obvious points that refute what you want to believe.. i.e. Wade/Bosh injuries.. Jordan's superior efficiency.. Pippen/Grant's unchanged stats when Jordan left..

I mean, it's remarkable how wrong you are on virtually everything.. and it's due to your blind bias and penchant for liking Lebron's rigid, bumbling, unskilled game (at least compared to MJ)
Bosh was hurt throughout the 2012 season.
Wade was hurt throughout the 2014 season and played more games in 2015 than in 2014.
Along with that in 2014 there were the additions of Whiteside, Deng, and Dragic.

Even with all this the Heat weren't even in the top 20 in ORTG.

And look at this year you idiot. Everyone is healthy and the added Green, yet their still 21st in ORTG, while the Cavs are 4th despite dealing with injuries a good portion of their roster (including their second best scorer).

I don't know if you're just retarded or won't admit it due to your love for MJ's nuts, but this is irrefutable evidence that Lebron's departure affected his teams much worse than Jordan's.



The 2014 Heat were a FAR worse team than the 1993 Bulls, as the 2014 Finals demonstrated.

The 54-win Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team.

So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?
the 2014 Heat had the 5th best record in the league and 4th in the West and were 20-10 vs the West, that's a 55-27 pace.

You're literally just making shit up now and saying irrational hypotheticals. Stop it.

[dhsilv]

BJ Armstrong? If he kadnt played with MJ, kids like you wouldnt even know he played in the league.

His allstar bid was without MJ...based on that it's reasonable to assume he might have had a better career without ever playing with MJ.

[plowking]

The crazy part is that people like him actually believe that to be an apt comparison lol. He's FAR closer to Sefalosha's defense than prime Martin's offense in '96-'98.

In what way is it not. Martin was a 20ppg scorer in his prime, and Harper just came off a 20/6/5 season. More rounded than Martin ever was.

An absolutely beasty defender to begin with, and then you tell him to just fit in on offense, and give his absolute all on defense? Come on... lol.

Put Jimmy Butler on the Spurs and tell him to just focus on D again. :oldlol:

You sit here and pretend as if people can't remember the type of offensive threat Harper was prior to the Bulls.

[Mr Feeny]

He came off a 20/6/5 season prior to joining the Bulls...

All that changed on the Bulls was that he was used as one of the primary defenders.

Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.

That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:

[plowking]

That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:

Clearly exceptions to the rule are not allowed when making a general statement.

[Mr Feeny]

How have you just decided that picking up the second best shooting guard in basketball is "the exception"?

You haven't watched a minute of 90's basketball of if you believe that. This is precisely why everyone on here is laughing at you.

[TomBrady]

3-peat, GOAT chemistry

you guys are incompetant
https://i.imgflip.com/w9ulm.jpg

[Da_Realist]

Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.

Give some examples. When was Harper doing all this work that allowed MJ to coast defensively? Cause I remember MJ defending Gary Payton, Allan Houston, Jerry Stackhouse, Nick Anderson, Steve Smith and Rod Strickland just in the late 90's alone. Not to mention chasing guys like Reggie Miller, Eddie Jones and Rex Chapman around screens and doing work against guys like Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway in spots. Doesn't seem like resting to me.

[Goofsta Knicca]

That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:

"Mooove, bitch! Get out the way! Get out the way bitch! Get out the way!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbL5U3MUzWA

[Da_Realist]

Biggest quarter of the season and MJ shut down Reggie Miller (0 points in the 4th). 35 years old and he put in work to save the season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk

Resting on defense... :oldlol:

[3ball]

Jamison was on the 2011 team and healthy for a good portion of the season.


Jamison missed 25 games and he was a starter.. Mo Williams (starter) missed 50 games.. Shaq (starter) left the team.. That's 3 starters outside of Lebron that the Cavs were missing..

Then they also lost Varejao, Delonte and Zydrunas - if you know ANYTHING about the Cavs, you'd know that each of these guys were key components of the team.. The Cavs had so many injuries and departures in 2011, that they had garbage men starting for them:

Alonzo Gee: started 29 games
Christian Eyenga: 18 games
Ryan Hollins: 16 games
Daniel Gibson: 15 games
Manny Harris: 15 games
Jamario Moon: 13 games
Samardo Samuels: 10 games





Jordan scored more because he shot more. I already proved this to you, I'm not doing it again.


You've never proved anything or even tried to, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

You simply miss the point - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Like, isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan did...

Jordan simply DID MORE - just look at those stats again - Jordan scored more, on better efficiency - what else would you want him to do?... Score less, on less efficiency?... Like, your perception of this situation couldn't be dumber.





Grant and Pippen both had their career highs without Jordan, that's not a coincidence.


They played at literally 98% capacity alongside Jordan - their highs alongside Jordan were essentially the same as their 1994 stats:

Pippen 1992: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. 7.0 apg.. 50.6 fg
Pippen 1994: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. 5.6 apg.. 49.1 fg

Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..

It's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan... Compare that to Bosh, Love and Wade, whose stats crater alongside Lebron.. It's like night and day.





there's no plausible way to know if they could have won 55 in 1991 without MJ.


It's dumb that anyone would think this, but I'll respond anyway.

Pippen and Grant weren't as good in 1991 as they were in 1994 - just look at the stats... Pippen wasn't even an all-star that year and he was just coming off his epic choke in 1990 ECF.. He wasn't the experienced 3-time champion that he was in 1994.

The fact that Pippen and Grant had yet to peak is enough to prove the Bulls couldn't have duplicated the success they had in 1994 when they were savvy, 3-time champions.. Like ANY team, the Bulls' journey was an accumulative one.. The gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.. Every Bulls team required MJ to be the greatest scorer ever, which proves the Bulls didn't win 55 games in 1994 because they had talented scorers - they won because of the execution, strategy, and teamwork accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.





This is the same copy/paste bullcrap (about MJ's heavy load he carries).


There wasn't a single copy paste in that post - you just can't respond to it - but here are the facts about the massive load MJ carried:

1) MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever

2) MJ assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals - he was the team leader in assist % for both 3-peats

3) MJ played goat-level defense in addition to all-time scoring and team leading passing.





the 2014 Heat had the 5th best record in the league and 4th in the West


The Heat's record puts them in the middle of the playoff pack in the West - but more importantly, they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC)... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those playoff teams.

Infact, the Spurs destroyed the Heat worse than ANY team has been beaten - it was a record defeat.. Again, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).

So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but then they fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?
.

[3ball]

MJ shot more (apparently, his team required it to win rings)



Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG


Regular Season:

Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:...... 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:.... 1975
George Gervin:. 1982
Kobe Bryant:.... 2006
Elgin Baylor:.... 1963
Tiny Archibald:. 1973
Dominique:...... 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan:..... 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:.......... 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:.......... 1974, 1975
George Gervin:....... 1975, 1982
Jerry West:............ 1966
Rick Barry:............ 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:.. 1995
Kobe Bryant:.......... 2007
Dominique:............ 1988
Allen Iverson:......... 2005
Kareem Jabbar:...... 1975


* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career


Notice that Lebron is not on the list - the 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume playoffs and we saw what happened when the high volume (27 fga) forced him to stray from his normal diet of 3-pointers and layups - he shot an abysmal 41%.. Unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume or require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.

In the Finals, he only shot 39% - it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming.. They only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team) (see 3rd paragraph in section on Curry for double-teaming data).. Compare that to MJ, where his efficient high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as a standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too..

But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the efficient high volume must be achieved within the team concept.. Only 2 players have reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25 shot attempts on 45% during a championship playoff run): MJ did it 4 times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.

Now lets look at Lebron - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan DID (see the stats below).

If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg


Considering the #2 thru #4 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is at 43.3 points, which far above the pack and in another tier - MJ simply did more (higher volume) while still maintaining equal or better efficiency.

[andgar923]

Love him or hate him.

As annoying and batshit crazy as any Stan can be, 3ball MURKS, it's doom for the opposition.

They hate him now, but other player stans secretly wish he was in their side.

[guy]

In what way is it not. Martin was a 20ppg scorer in his prime, and Harper just came off a 20/6/5 season. More rounded than Martin ever was.

An absolutely beasty defender to begin with, and then you tell him to just fit in on offense, and give his absolute all on defense? Come on... lol.

Put Jimmy Butler on the Spurs and tell him to just focus on D again. :oldlol:

You sit here and pretend as if people can't remember the type of offensive threat Harper was prior to the Bulls.

If you're just going to read basketball reference to come up with your conclusions at least do it right. Harper was not a 20/6/5 player when he started playing with Jordan. He joined the 95 Bulls not the 96 Bulls and only averaged 8/3/2 on 42% in 20 mpg for 65 games before Jordan ever came back. Jimmy Butler? You're basically saying he was a top 20 player at worst then :oldlol:. And the 95 Bulls, who were barely above .500 before Jordan came back could've easily used his 20/6/5. But he didn't cause he wasn't capable at that point. He was a good defender at that point and that was about it. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about :oldlol:

[eurobum]

COMPARISON BREAKDOWN, LEBRON JAMES


1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

Dwyane Wade > Scottie Pippen


2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

Same or even a tier above Rodman as complete players:
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love

A tier below Rodman:
Chris Bosh


3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

Carlos Boozer with Cavs: 16 ppg (52 % FG), 11 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg, 0.7 spg
Drew Gooden with Cavs: 12 ppg (49 % FG), 9 rpg
Since you cherry picked one season worth of stats for Grant, here are Zydranus Ilgauskas first three seasons with James: 16 ppg (49 % FG), 8 rpg, 2 bpg


4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

Mo Williams with Cavs ('09, '10): 17 ppg (43 % 3FG), 5 apg, 3 rpg
JR Smith first season with Cavs: 13 ppg (40 % 3FG), 4 apg, 3 rpg
Larry Hughes with Cavs: 15 ppg, 4 rpg, 4 apg, 1.3 spg


5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

LOL at Charles Oakley and BJ Armstrong being some kind of special players. I listed six players comparable to Grant and Kukoc, so just pick two of the remaining four.


7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

Oh, so we're doing this where a players resume from before joining the discussed subject (Jordan) is merit in itself. Fact is Harper wasn't a very good player post ACL surgery -- serviceable but basically only good for team defense and play making (and knocking down wide open jumpers).

Players with awesome resumes that later joined Lebron James:
Shaquille O'Neal .. since you posted Harper's stats prior to joining Bulls. Should I list this guy stats?
Ray Allen ... how about this guys'?
Larry Hughes had this season just before joining James: 22 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 2.9 spg (steals title 2005)

lol Ron Harper



And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

Other help:
Mike Bibby
Mario Chalmers
Chris Anderson
Udonis Haslem
Shane Battier
Rashard Lewis
Antawn Jamison

Jordan:
Orlando Woolridge
John Paxon
Craig Hodges
Bill Cartwright
Jud Buechler
Luc Longley
Bill Wennington
Stacey King
lol

Fun fact - "other, other" help
(played very little with, or played with but way beyond their prime)
Wally Sczcerbiak
Joe Smith
Jerry Stackhouse
Ben Wallace
Ricky Davis

[Mr Feeny]

If you're just going to read basketball reference to come up with your conclusions at least do it right. Harper was not a 20/6/5 player when he started playing with Jordan. He joined the 95 Bulls not the 96 Bulls and only averaged 8/3/2 on 42% in 20 mpg for 65 games before Jordan ever came back. Jimmy Butler? You're basically saying he was a top 20 player at worst then :oldlol:. And the 95 Bulls, who were barely above .500 before Jordan came back could've easily used his 20/6/5. But he didn't cause he wasn't capable at that point. He was a good defender at that point and that was about it. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about :oldlol:

The guy is a joke. He doesn't understand anything about basketball pre-2004 because he wasn't watching back then. Worse yet, as you've stated, he can't even read box scores correctly when he's making one embarassing post after the other.

[juju151111]

Clearly exceptions to the rule are not allowed when making a general statement.
Rest?
Lets take a look at who Mj guards throughout the playoffs
89 and 90 Isiah
91 Magic
92 Clyde
3.93 Starks

Where is he resting numnuts

[Wade's Rings]

Glad you're aware. You follow me around and comment on the majority of my Lebron/Wade posts. We get it you don't like Lebron, but go troll a Lebron stan I honestly don't care.

Me replying to your posts means I'm following you around :oldlol:


His help was so great that he either led or was tied in points, assists, rebounds(0.4 difference), blocks (0.2 difference), steals.
Quite the crap man, take Lebron off that team from 06-10 and replace him with anyone not name Kobe and they get rekted in the first round every year.

2007 vs Pistons
- Game 5, you have to admit was all LeBron. but what about the other games?
- the Cavs defense shut down the Pistons to 86 ppg for the series after 96 ppg in the season. A 10 ppg decrease
- Game 1 - Lebron 10 pts on 33%, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 2 - LeBron 19 pts on 37%, 6 assist to 7 turnovers, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 6 - LeBron 20 pts on 27%, Gibson drops 31-6-2 on 78%, and Cavs shut down Pistons to 82 points on 36% shooting to send them to the Finals

2007 vs Spurs
- Spurs averaged 98.5 ppg in regular season, Cavs defense held them to 86.5 ppg. Spurs had a 12 ppg decrease against Cavs defense.
- Cavs defense hold Duncan to 45% shooting after 55% in regular season.
- Game 1 - Lebron 14 pts on 25% shooting, 7 rebs and 4 assist to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 9
- Game 3 - Lebron 25 pts on 39%, 7 ast to 5 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 3 as Lebron missed game-tying 3
- Game 4 - 24 pts on 30 shots (33% shooting), 10 ast to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 1 as Lebron goes 2/6 from the FT line.

2008 vs Celtics
- Cavs defense shut down Celtics to 84 ppg for the ECSF after they averaged 100 ppg in the regular season. Celtics had a 16 ppg decrease against Cavs defense
- Game 1 - Lebron 2/18 shooting with 10 turnovers. In the 4th quarter, he had 1-8 FG, 0 FT, 2 points, and went 0/4 FG in the final minute including a missed game tying shot attempt with 10 seconds left. Cavs only lose by 4 after being forced to foul. "Never had any help"
- Game 3 - Lebron 21-5-8 on 31% shooting, Delonte West has 21-5-7 on 64% shooting, and Celtics get shut down to 84 points by Cavs defense.
- Game 4 - Lebron 35% shooting and Cavs still get the win because the Cavs defense shuts down Celtics to 77 points on 39% shooting
- Game 6 - Lebron 39% shooting and 6 assists to 8 turnovers. Cavs still win because their defense shut down Boston to 69 points
Boston averaged 100 ppg in the regular season and the Cavs defense never let the Celtics reach 100 points once in the 7 game series. "LeBron did it all by himself"
- Game 7 - Lebron has a great game of 45-5-6-2 on 48%.

2010 vs Celtics
- Cavs are up 2-1, then in the next 3 games combined Lebron averages 34% shooting with 8 assists to 6 turnovers a game, and the Cavs go 0-3 and get sent home.

"abysmal help" :rolleyes:

'06 Wade makes it out of the 1st Round with Lebron's team, '09 & '10 Wade makes it as well.


You stated their previous trips and that they gained Kukoc and Kerr. Longley was hurt most of the season and Kukoc and Kerr's combined >20 ppg scoring doesn't cover the GOAT scorer leaving.

You said players left outside of Jordan, what players?


Before I stated that I prefaced it with "his IMPACT was overrated", but I did say his scoring was good due to his freedom in the GOAT system. I didn't mention his scoring in his earlier years because he scored alot but it resulted in losing. But continue name calling as if you know me.

I can only judge from what I've seen you post on this site.

[3ball]

I think I see what some of the problem is.

A lot of guys don't realize that the 1994 Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and win the championship next year - they were a 2ND ROUND TEAM PERMANENTLY without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we were measuring that gap with our arms, how big would it be...

Otoh, 2014 Miami Heat were not a 3-peat dynasty - they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC), and were actually beat worse than any team EVER... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those Western Conference teams.

At the time of their record defeat in the Finals, they were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference playoff team, at best.. Then Lebron left... :eek:

That's a lot different then the Bulls actually WINNING the 3-peat with everyone still in their prime and therefore actually BEING a 3-peat caliber team, and then falling to permanent 2nd Round status (or worse) when MJ retired.

[Bankaii]

Jamison missed 25 games and he was a starter.. Mo Williams (starter) missed 50 games.. Shaq (starter) left the team.. That's 3 starters outside of Lebron that the Cavs were missing..

Then they also lost Varejao, Delonte and Zydrunas - if you know ANYTHING about the Cavs, you'd know that each of these guys were key components of the team.. The Cavs had so many injuries and departures in 2011, that they had garbage men starting for them:

Alonzo Gee: started 29 games
Christian Eyenga: 18 games
Ryan Hollins: 16 games
Daniel Gibson: 15 games
Manny Harris: 15 games
Jamario Moon: 13 games
Samardo Samuels: 10 games
Jamison was Lebron's second leading scorer in 2010 and only played 25 games in 2010, that's less than half the amount than in 2011. Quit using him as an excuse.

Since you keep using injuries as an excuse, through the first 30 games of the season, in which everyone on the Cavs was healthy, they were still 29th in the league in ORTG.

The team was decreased drastically the very next season before injuries. Want to know why... LeBron James.

There's a reason that even after the additions of lottery picks like Kyrie, TT, Waiters, Bennett, and additions like Deng, Hawes, etc the Cavs have have only cracked the top 20 in league ORTG once since Lebron left (they were 19th).

However time he returns they're back in the top 4 for back to back years.

Also, why don't you address how the Heat haven't even come close to returning to their offensive production in 2014 (5th best ORTG) in neither 2015 nor 16 (21st ORTG) despite loading up with talent to replace Bron and being healthy this year?

Your hate for Lebron makes you so oblivious.




You've never proved anything or even tried to, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

You simply miss the point - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Like, isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan did...

Jordan simply DID MORE - just look at those stats again - Jordan scored more, on better efficiency - what else would you want him to do?... Score less, on less efficiency?... Like, your perception of this situation couldn't be dumber.
My goodness JORDAN SCORED MORE POINTS BECAUSE HE SHOT MORE.
Show me stats where Jordan took an equal amount of shots to Lebron, Bird, Kobe, etc and still scored more.

If you're referencing that per 100 playoff scoring then Jordan took far more shots on equal efficiency.
Volume scoring doesn't equal better scorer.




They played at literally 98% capacity alongside Jordan - their highs alongside Jordan were essentially the same as their 1994 stats:

Pippen 1992: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. 7.0 apg.. 50.6 fg
Pippen 1994: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. 5.6 apg.. 49.1 fg

Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..

It's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan... Compare that to Bosh, Love and Wade, whose stats crater alongside Lebron.. It's like night and day.
Anyone with a brain would understand this, but you don't understand the concept of context so I'll explain it again.

Jordan played in the GOAT system under the GOAT coach. The triangle is an equal opportunity offense that allows players to flourish even if the talent levels aren't equal. Although because Jordan is the GOAT, Phil gave him the freedom to score at will.

Pippen and Grant didn't have this freedom, which is why their stats didn't change significantly. Pippen could easily score 25 a game, if not under a system.

Lebron on the other hand has had rookie coaches with the Heat and current Cavs, thus there is no system. The plan is to go play also ball and out-talent other teams. Because Lebron is the best playmaker, he is usually the one that handles the ball the most.
This leads to players to not have as many opportunities as they would have being the 1st or 2nd option on shit teams.

And you're making shit up. Both Wade and Irving's stats are just as good as the year before.

Lebron actually helps his teammates get much easier shots, as seen by the increase in efficiency.

Bosh and Love's stats decreased because they went from being 1st options on shit, noncontending teams to 3rd options on championship contending teams. Both were taking 3-6 less shots per game, obviously their points will decrease. How stupid do have to be to not understand that?



It's dumb that anyone would think this, but I'll respond anyway.

Pippen and Grant weren't as good in 1991 as they were in 1994 - just look at the stats... Pippen wasn't even an all-star that year and he was just coming off his epic choke in 1990 ECF.. He wasn't the experienced 3-time champion that he was in 1994.

The fact that Pippen and Grant had yet to peak is enough to prove the Bulls couldn't have duplicated the success they had in 1994 when they were savvy, 3-time champions.. Like ANY team, the Bulls' journey was an accumulative one.. The gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..

MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.. Every Bulls team required MJ to be the greatest scorer ever, which proves the Bulls didn't win 55 games in 1994 because they had talented scorers - they won because of the execution, strategy, and teamwork accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.
The last two paragraphs are copy and pasted, stop doing that shit.

Pippen had only been in the league for 2 years prior to 1990. For a 3rd year player his stats were incredible. Obviously he wasn't as good because he didn't have any experience.

Hypotheticals are dumb, but if Jordan doesn't exist the Bulls still would have made it to the 2nd round and 55 wins in 1994. They possibly are even better because they would've been required to do more.




There wasn't a single copy paste in that post - you just can't respond to it - but here are the facts about the massive load MJ carried:

1) MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever

2) MJ assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals - he was the team leader in assist % for both 3-peats

3) MJ played goat-level defense in addition to all-time scoring and team leading passing.
You copy and paste everything 3Ball.

1) How many of those players had as many FGA as Jordan?

2) His usage was also extremely high, what do you expect?
No he didn't. The 1996 and 1998 Playoffs Pippen's is higher despite jordan having a 10% higher usage.

3) He also had to teammates that were both better defenders supporting him.
I don't discredit that doing what he did wasn't great, but he wasn't even the best nor most versatile defender on his own team.



The Heat's record puts them in the middle of the playoff pack in the West - but more importantly, they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC)... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those playoff teams.

Infact, the Spurs destroyed the Heat worse than ANY team has been beaten - it was a record defeat.. Again, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).

So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but then they fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?
.
This post has zero logic whatsoever.

You can't compare how teams played a common team to determine if they would win a series or not. How stupid is that?

Teams have different weaknesses against different opponents. This is how I know you don't watch and definitely dont play basketball, even casual fans understand that.

The Spurs lost to the Clippers last year and the Clippers lost to the Rockets.
So , Rockets>Spurs, right dumbass?

[Bankaii]

Love him or hate him.

As annoying and batshit crazy as any Stan can be, 3ball MURKS, it's doom for the opposition.

They hate him now, but other player stans secretly wish he was in their side.
Except he doesn't whatsoever.

Whenever he loses an argument he cherry picks people's posts and disregards what he has no response for.

[Bankaii]

2007 vs Pistons
- Game 5, you have to admit was all LeBron. but what about the other games?
- the Cavs defense shut down the Pistons to 86 ppg for the series after 96 ppg in the season. A 10 ppg decrease
- Game 1 - Lebron 10 pts on 33%, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 2 - LeBron 19 pts on 37%, 6 assist to 7 turnovers, Cavs only lost by 3
- Game 6 - LeBron 20 pts on 27%, Gibson drops 31-6-2 on 78%, and Cavs shut down Pistons to 82 points on 36% shooting to send them to the Finals
You say what about the other games, and conveniently leave out the 2 he did well in.
Game 3: 32/9/9 on 57%.
Game 4: 25/11/6 on 42%.

Game 1: You conveniently leave out his 10 rebounds and 9 assists/2 TO ratio.
Also the fact that of the 21 4th quarter points Lebron assisted/scored half og them and had the team's best DRTG.

Game 2: Assisted/scored 7 of the 13 4th quarter points.

Game 6: He also had 14 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks and had the team's best DRTG. Gibson had a monster game though, that's what teammates are for. Is lebron supposed to be the leader in scoring, assists, reboundiing, and steals every game?

The end result was still loses lol. I understand Lebron underperformed even though his team put him in a position to succeed, and I'm not making excuses for his poor play in those situations. But using the Cavs' defense when Lebron was clearly their best defender is disingenuous.

Also, using PPG is pretty invalid because the Pistons weren't an offensive team.

Lebron dropped 26/9/9/3 on 45% against arguably the GOAT defensive team and you're calling it an underperformance.:roll:


2007 vs Spurs
- Spurs averaged 98.5 ppg in regular season, Cavs defense held them to 86.5 ppg. Spurs had a 12 ppg decrease against Cavs defense.
- Cavs defense hold Duncan to 45% shooting after 55% in regular season.
- Game 1 - Lebron 14 pts on 25% shooting, 7 rebs and 4 assist to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 9
- Game 3 - Lebron 25 pts on 39%, 7 ast to 5 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 3 as Lebron missed game-tying 3
- Game 4 - 24 pts on 30 shots (33% shooting), 10 ast to 6 turnovers. Cavs only lose by 1 as Lebron goes 2/6 from the FT line.
Lebron underperformed this series, I don't know what else you want me to say lol.

Game 1: The game was over by the 3rd. Lol at "only by 9".
Game 3: Dude scored 12 points in the 4th. I understand he missed the GT 3, but seriously his performance in crunch time was solid. Cavs only lost by 3 because he took over.
Game 4: Lebron only had 13 points in the 4th alone, including a clutch 3. The Spurs were just scoring on their end too.



2008 vs Celtics
- Cavs defense shut down Celtics to 84 ppg for the ECSF after they averaged 100 ppg in the regular season. Celtics had a 16 ppg decrease against Cavs defense
- Game 1 - Lebron 2/18 shooting with 10 turnovers. In the 4th quarter, he had 1-8 FG, 0 FT, 2 points, and went 0/4 FG in the final minute including a missed game tying shot attempt with 10 seconds left. Cavs only lose by 4 after being forced to foul. "Never had any help"
- Game 3 - Lebron 21-5-8 on 31% shooting, Delonte West has 21-5-7 on 64% shooting, and Celtics get shut down to 84 points by Cavs defense.
- Game 4 - Lebron 35% shooting and Cavs still get the win because the Cavs defense shuts down Celtics to 77 points on 39% shooting
- Game 6 - Lebron 39% shooting and 6 assists to 8 turnovers. Cavs still win because their defense shut down Boston to 69 points
Boston averaged 100 ppg in the regular season and the Cavs defense never let the Celtics reach 100 points once in the 7 game series. "LeBron did it all by himself"
- Game 7 - Lebron has a great game of 45-5-6-2 on 48%.
Game 1: choke
Game 3: Was the teams best defender by far.
Game 4: 13 assists and 6 rebounds. Assisted or scored 16 of the 20 4th quarter points.
Game 6: You forgot the 32/12/6 part lol. And the fact that Lebron either scored or assisted on every FG made in the 4th quarter:roll:
Game 7: Lol at a 45 point game on 48% being just "great. He also had 13 points in the 4th quarter and his team still lost.
Only one other Cav had double digit scoring. This is a prime example of what I meant. Lebron has a historic scoring game while also controlling the 4th but his support can't help him win.


2010 vs Celtics
- Cavs are up 2-1, then in the next 3 games combined Lebron averages 34% shooting with 8 assists to 6 turnovers a game, and the Cavs go 0-3 and get sent home.
Yea he choked that series. Closeout game of 29/19/10 along with incredible defense though.



"abysmal help" :rolleyes:
Yes abysmal help. In all these series you proved if lebron doesnt lead the team in all major categories while shooting above league average his team is guaranteed to lose.

Again, how many players have to lead their team in points, rebounds, and assists?

You're pointing out series from a 22 year old Lebron having to carry teams again superior, stacked, defensive oriented teams. His FG% is going to be low due to the fact that he is sole offensive threat.

He's not going to play well every series, no one is. But the difference is that many players have teams that can carry them over the hump during that slump, from 04-10 Lebron didnt.

[Legends66NBA7]

So many agendas. Ain't ever going to change.

[jstern]

So Harper was averaging 6ppg for the Bulls, the year before Jordan came back for a full year. I totally missed that. I'm sure the OP didn't.

[guy]

So Harper was averaging 6ppg for the Bulls, the year before Jordan came back for a full year. I totally missed that. I'm sure the OP didn't.

If anything, the list he made shows how much help he didn't have compared to others. Kukoc, Harper, BJ, Oakley probably wouldn't even make the same list for Kobe or Lebron.

[3ball]

Both Wade and Irving's stats are just as good as the year before.



Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of Wade/Kyrie and all his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)





Lebron actually helps his teammates get much easier shots, as seen by the increase in efficiency.


Lebron not only reduces the APG of teammates, he increases their assisted rate, which proves he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.

With less guys playmaking, the team's offensive sophistication is reduced and the team is more predictable.. Look at ALL FOUR of Lebron's Finals losses - his teams lost 3 straight games to finish the series each time, in blowout fashion.. The opponent figured out easy Lebron-ball, and then it's blowout-city.. With less guys playmaking, Lebron-ball isn't sophisticated enough to counteradjust, so it's just blowout city.

This is what happens in every Finals Lebron has lost - and it will happen again this year, when his team is trounced by the Warriors or Spurs, again - I predict the Cavs lose the last 3 games, which would be the FIFTH Finals that happened to Lebron... 2/7 vs. 6/6... yikes





Because Lebron is the best playmaker, he is usually the one that handles the ball the most.

This leads to players to not have as many opportunities as they would have being the 1st or 2nd option on shit teams.


The Heat had all-nba Wade and perennial all-star Bosh - there's ZERO rationale for Lebron to monopolize the playmaking while playing with those guys.

But he did anyway, because that's how all of Lebron teams play - it's called Lebron-ball.. With Lebron reducing the APG and playmaking of Wade/Bosh (turning them into play-finishers instead), the Heat's team was never as good as they should've been.. That's why they only went 2/4 with all that talent.
.

[BigNBAfan]

You can put adam morrison on that roster replacing MJ and win rings

[3ball]

through the first 30 games of the season, in which everyone on the Cavs was healthy, they were still 29th in the league in ORTG.


At the start of the 2011 season, the Cavs were missing Shaq, Delonte and Zydrunas, who averaged a combined 30 ppg in 2010 - this was exactly 30% of the team's points.

But keep disregarding the 30 ppg of these guys, and only pay attention to Lebron's 30 ppg.. :rolleyes: .. And later in the season, Varejao and Mo Williams went down and missed 50 games each..

Overall, the Cavs lost 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 other key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.





even after the additions of lottery picks like Kyrie, TT, Waiters, Bennett, and additions like Deng, Hawes, etc the Cavs have have only cracked the top 20 in league ORTG once since Lebron left (they were 19th).


Deng only played 40 games for the Cavs before he was traded again.

But let me get this straight - you think a team consisting of Kyrie, Waiters, TT, Hawes and Bennett should have a top 20 ORtg?

That's a bad team with bad or non-offensive players outside of Kyrie... I would EXPECT a Kyrie-led team with zero supporting cast to be a bad offensive team...

But if you gave Kyrie players like Shaq, Antawn Jamison, Mo Williams, Delonte West and Zydrunas, then I'd expect Kyrie's team to have a solid offense.





When Lebron returned to the Cavs, their offense was back in the top 4 for two straight years now.


Do I have to state the obvious???... The Cavs added 26/13 Kevin Love, who was 2nd Team All-NBA.

Also, having a top 4 offense doesn't compare to MJ - MJ's teams had the highest ORtg's OF ALL TIME.

Lebron's top 4 offense doesn't compare to the goat offense.. That's a pretty big gap.





Also, why don't you address how the Heat haven't even come close to returning to their offensive production in 2014 (5th best ORTG) in neither 2015 nor 16 (21st ORTG) despite loading up with talent to replace Bron and being healthy this year?


It's easier to make definitive statements about Lebron's offensive impact on the Heat, since Lebron was the only change..

But you simply can't do that for his Cavs teams, since they lost literally half their team, which amounted to losing 52 ppg OUTSIDE of Lebron's scoring.

Certainly, Lebron's offensive impact on the Heat is much easier to quantify... But the Heat's offense was still only 5th best in the league with him.. Having a 5th best offense doesn't compare to MJ - MJ's teams had the highest ORtg's of ALL TIME.

Lebron's 5th-best offense in the league doesn't compare to the goat offense.. That's a pretty big gap.. :applause:





Show me stats where Jordan took an equal amount of shots to Lebron, Kobe, etc and still scored more.


:rolleyes:

Lebron took 27 fga in 2015 playoffs, but only averaged 30 ppg.

Otoh, MJ averaged 33.5 ppg for his playoff career, on only 25 fga... And anytime MJ took 26+ fga in playoffs, he averaged 35+ ppg.. He also averaged 37 ppg in 1987 regular season on 27 fga... Take these L's (again).

Lebron and Kobe need MORE shots to match Jordan's scoring... And why is that?.. BECAUSE THEIR EFFICIENCY IS WORSE - here's their efficiency measures in the playoffs:

JORDAN: 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON: 47.1 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:... 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg





JORDAN SCORED MORE POINTS BECAUSE HE SHOT MORE ON BETTER EFFICIENCY.


There... fixed.

You can't knock a player for having better efficiency... If Lebron and Kobe could have better efficiency - they would... But they can't, even though they take less shots.

MJ scores 20% more than Lebron, on better efficiency... What else would you want MJ to do?... Score less, on less efficiency?... Your perception of this situation couldn't be dumber.





Volume scoring doesn't equal better scorer.


So wait - you think Lebron is a better scorer than Jordan?... Is that what you're saying?

It's clear that you don't really think he's the goat - you just say he's the goat because you know you'll look ridiculous if you say otherwise.

Basically, you're a massive ***** who's too afraid to say what he really thinks.. You belong in the Lebron camp, that's for certain.





Phil didn't give Pippen or Grant freedom under the triangle, which is why their stats didn't change significantly. Pippen could easily score 25 a game, if not under a system.


You're lying here - Phil would never restrict Pippen or hold him down, especially if he was capable of 25+ ppg, as you claim he was..

Pippen was #1 option in 1994, but instead of averaging 33 ppg like MJ did under the same system, he averaged 22 ppg, which is the same as he did alongside MJ.

So your narrative about how the "system" held Pippen down is bullshit.. Pippen simply wasn't capable of averaging more than 21-22 ppg.. This was proven in 1994.





if Jordan doesn't exist the Bulls would still have made it to the 2nd round and 55 wins in 1994.


Ridiculous.. I'll explain it this way - in 1989, the Bulls won 47 games - the cutoff to make the playoffs was 45 games.. So without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, the Bulls miss the playoffs and are a lottery team heading into the 1990 season - surely you concede that this is true..

But WITH Jordan, they made it to ECF and went 6 games with the Bad Boys..

So going into the 1990 season WITH Jordan, the Bulls were ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning their 3-peat, as opposed to being a lottery team WITHOUT Jordan..

If they were a lottery team without MJ going into the 1990 season (instead of contenders for the championship), there's no way they win 55 games by 1994.





The 1996 and 1998 Playoffs Pippen had higher assist percentage than jordan



You proved my point - 4 out of the 6 championship runs, Jordan had the higher assist percentage - overall, here were their assist percentages:


Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


In addition to assisting more, MJ scored at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in virtually every playoff series except two, where he averaged 5 ppg and 8 ppg more... GOAT





MJ had two teammates supporting him (Grant and Pippen) that were both better defenders


You're trying to re-write history 20 years after the fact.. But AT THE TIME, it was common knowledge that MJ was the team's best defender:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s


At the time, no one thought Grant or Pippen was a better defender than MJ.. MJ has the most all-defensive selections EVER, and was also DPOY.. Otoh, you have zero proof or basis for saying MJ was a worse defender, except your desperation to make MJ look worse..

But here's the reality - Pippen was a slower FORWARD - it's easily demonstrated that he couldn't stay in front of quick ballhandlers in the exact same spots (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11977764&postcount=29) that MJ did.

Also, it's historical fact that Pippen let every decent wing in the league go off for huge games on him - 35, 40, and 50 point games were routine - whereas, MJ rarely ever gave up a big game to anyone.





The Spurs lost to the Clippers last year and the Clippers lost to the Rockets.
So , Rockets>Spurs, right dumbass?


I think I see what some of the problem is.

A lot of guys don't realize that the 1994 Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and win the championship next year - they were a 2ND ROUND TEAM PERMANENTLY without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we were measuring that gap with our arms, we must spread our arms very wide to demonstrate how big the gap is.

Otoh, 2014 Miami Heat were not a 3-peat dynasty - they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC), and were actually beat worse than any team EVER... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those Western Conference teams.

At the time of their record defeat in the Finals, they were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference playoff team, at best.. Then Lebron left... :eek:

That's a lot different then the Bulls actually WINNING the 3-peat with everyone still in their prime and therefore actually BEING a 3-peat caliber team....... and then falling to permanent 2nd Round status (or worse) when MJ retired.
.

[BigNBAfan]

Derik fisher coaching with current elden campbel replacing MJ could win 6 rings with that roster though

[3ball]

Derik fisher coaching with current elden campbel replacing MJ could win 6 rings with that roster though


It makes no sense to say "kobe could've replaced MJ and won a 4th ring in 1994", when he couldn't average the 35/7/7 on 51%, or the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to three-peat in the first place?? (those were MJ's playoffs and Finals averages thru 1993)

Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat... So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with Jordan's ready-made, 3-peat Bulls.

Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond would win in 1994, then MJ would've 4-peated FOR SURE, and probably 9-peated.. That would make him the GOAT until the end of time.. As it is, he's 6/6, with a perfect career - he'll be the goat for our lifetimes, and probably forever tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had.
.

[BigNBAfan]

I mean robert horry could lead that bulls team to rings

[Wade's Rings]

You say what about the other games, and conveniently leave out the 2 he did well in.
Game 3: 32/9/9 on 57%.
Game 4: 25/11/6 on 42%.

True he did play great in those Games.


Game 1: You conveniently leave out his 10 rebounds and 9 assists/2 TO ratio.
Also the fact that of the 21 4th quarter points Lebron assisted/scored half og them and had the team's best DRTG.

Game 2: Assisted/scored 7 of the 13 4th quarter points.

Game 6: He also had 14 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks and had the team's best DRTG. Gibson had a monster game though, that's what teammates are for. Is lebron supposed to be the leader in scoring, assists, reboundiing, and steals every game?

His rebounding was good & he was getting a lot of assists. He averaged .2 more rebounds than Big Z, and he's their primary scorer and playmaker so why wouldn't he lead them in assists, especially considering he dominates the ball so much?

DRTG? :oldlol:


Also, using PPG is pretty invalid because the Pistons weren't an offensive team.

The Pistons were the 3rd best Offense that year.


Lebron dropped 26/9/9/3 on 45% against arguably the GOAT defensive team and you're calling it an underperformance.:roll:\

I never said he unperformed. Just said he had help. BTW the Pistons didn't have Ben Wallace this year and were the 7th Best Defense (good but not Top 5 like they were the previous years). They weren't the GOAT defense anymore.

Lebron underperformed this series, I don't know what else you want me to say lol.


Game 1: The game was over by the 3rd. Lol at "only by 9".

Through the 1st 3 quarters Bron had 8 points.


Game 3: Dude scored 12 points in the 4th. I understand he missed the GT 3, but seriously his performance in crunch time was solid. Cavs only lost by 3 because he took over.

The Cavs headed into the quarter down by 5, Gooden & Pavlovic had 7 points to help keep the Cavs in it when the Spurs had open the lead up to about 6-7 points and Pavlovic hit another big 3 later in the Quarter. It wasn't only Bron.


Game 4: Lebron only had 13 points in the 4th alone, including a clutch 3. The Spurs were just scoring on their end too.

A couple role players showed up in that Quarter too. BTW Bron shot 35% with 6 turnovers a game for that series, if he shoots 40% with 5 turnovers a game the Cavs could've been 2-2 heading into Game 5.


Game 4: 13 assists and 6 rebounds. Assisted or scored 16 of the 20 4th quarter points.

True he played great in the 4th Quarter regardless of his shooting.


Game 6: You forgot the 32/12/6 part lol. And the fact that Lebron either scored or assisted on every FG made in the 4th quarter:roll:

Shot 2/6 in the quarter with 3 Turnover.


Game 7: Lol at a 45 point game on 48% being just "great. He also had 13 points in the 4th quarter and his team still lost.
Only one other Cav had double digit scoring. This is a prime example of what I meant. Lebron has a historic scoring game while also controlling the 4th but his support can't help him win.

He had a great game but you're completely ignoring him shooting 35% with 5 turnovers over the series. He also didn't shoot great in most of the 4th Quarters.


Yea he choked that series. Closeout game of 29/19/10 along with incredible defense though.

He had his infamous quit game ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0) and 9 Turnovers in Game 6.


Yes abysmal help. In all these series you proved if lebron doesnt lead the team in all major categories while shooting above league average his team is guaranteed to lose.

Plenty of Games in those series were competitive even with Lebron playing like shit. If he even shot 40% with 5 turnovers a Game vs the Spurs the Cavs could've easily won a couple games.

Again, how many players have to lead their team in points, rebounds, and assists?


You're pointing out series from a 22 year old Lebron having to carry teams again superior, stacked, defensive oriented teams. His FG% is going to be low due to the fact that he is sole offensive threat.

The '07 Pistons weren't stacked and the Cavs were the favorites in '10 vs the Celtics.

[hitmanyr2k]

I think I see what some of the problem is.

A lot of guys don't realize that the 1994 Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and win the championship next year - they were a 2ND ROUND TEAM PERMANENTLY without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we were measuring that gap with our arms, how big would it be...

Otoh, 2014 Miami Heat were not a 3-peat dynasty - they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC), and were actually beat worse than any team EVER... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those Western Conference teams.

At the time of their record defeat in the Finals, they were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference playoff team, at best.. Then Lebron left... :eek:

That's a lot different then the Bulls actually WINNING the 3-peat with everyone still in their prime and therefore actually BEING a 3-peat caliber team, and then falling to permanent 2nd Round status (or worse) when MJ retired.

Stop with this myth. I've kicked your ass time and time again and you keep repeating the same bullshit. The Bulls in '94 weren't the same team that had just 3peated. Cartwright and Paxson were on their last leg and barely played. Scott Williams was injured most of the year. New faces adjusting to their first year in the triangle offense had to play key roles. The only consistent key guys from that title team were Pippen, Horace and BJ. Never mind both Pippen and Horace Grant missed 10+ games that year nursing injuries and recoveing from surgeries due to the long playoff wars they had just gone through.

Just about all of the new faces on the Bulls were journeyman role players that came from losing franchises and barely had any playoff experience whatsoever. And maybe if Jordan hadn't made such a crap move of retiring 3 weeks before the season started the Bulls could have gotten better replacements than Pete Myers and Jo Jo English but they had to scramble to replace him with whatever they could find at the time. Pete Myers had no playoff experience whatsoever. Jo Jo English was a scrub that had never played a playoff game in his entire career. Kukoc had trouble adjusting to his first year, shot low percentages across the board and his defense was ridiculously bad. Bill Wennington had never played a playoff game in his entire career. Luc Longley came over over in a midseason trade, had to learn the triangle and once again never played a playoff game in his entire career. Only an idiot would say the '94 Bulls was a 3peat caliber team.

[ShaqTwizzle]

3bvall what the hell man.

Why you acting like the best the 94 Bulls could do was be a 2nd round team?
They pushed NYK to 7 games and could have very easily won that series if they had gotten an extra lucky bounce or two.
Then they would have faced Indiana who they beat in 4/5 reg-season games.

What if they beat NYK and then beat Indiana that year?
Even if they lost to Houston in 5 or 6... would you still feel the same about them only being a 2nd round team?

Yes they lost in the 2nd round but that doesn't mean that was the best they "could have" done.
That Knicks series was about as close as a series can get while still losing. One extra lucky bounce and they advance and then they probably beat Indiana who they slaughtered throughout the reg-season.

:biggums:

[Roundball_Rock]

1986 Celtics or 1980s Lakers says Hi...

Too lazy to break down every player but some poster will do that for me

The league was less diluted then so each roster was stronger in absolute terms.


"But doesn't Pippen deserve credit for the improved playoffs-seeding?"

Pippen was not a permanent starter (he started in the playoffs in 88'* but reverted to the bench the next year) until 1/3 the way through the 89' season. Moreover, Pippen missed 9 games altogether then. The Bulls went 47-35 overall that year. Without Pippen they were 4-5 (a 36 win pace). More revealingly, they went 24-11 when Pippen played 35+ minutes. I don't remember their exact record in the 56 games he started but it was markedly better than when he was on the bench. Chicago started that season 13-12--after Pippen became a starter they went on a big winning streak.

Maybe all of the above is just coincidental, though. :oldlol:

*The first round was best of 5 back then. Pippen started for the first time, had a huge game. Without that the Bulls would have lost in the first round for the fourth consecutive year.


And maybe if Jordan hadn't made such a crap move of retiring 3 weeks before the season started the Bulls could have gotten better replacements than Pete Myers and Jo Jo English but they had to scramble to replace him with whatever they could find at the time. Pete Myers had no playoff experience whatsoever. Jo Jo English was a scrub that had never played a playoff game in his entire career.

:applause:

MJ stans conveniently always neglect this. The Bulls nearly won the #1 seed replacing MJ with a D-Leaguer. Imagine if they had been able to get a legitimate SG. The Bulls had the worst starting SG in the league and still were contenders. What does that say?

The Heat replaced LeBron with Deng, an above average SF who was a former all-star. Look at how much they declined in 2015. Now imagine the Heat replacing LeBron with a D-League SF because all the free agents had been signed by October.


That Knicks series was about as close as a series can get while still losing.

The Bulls actually outscored the Knicks during the series. The Knick wins came by 1, 4, 5, and 10. One of them featured a phantom foul on the final play, gifting the Knicks Game 5 and a 3-2 series lead. Everyone other than MJ stans agree that was one of the worst calls of all-time.

Moreover, it is incredibly stupid to look at one year's performance and assume that same level of performance would exist in every other year. There is always some variation in yearly performance. In the 90's the top East teams outside the Bulls were the Knicks, Cavs, Magic, and Pacers. All of these teams had ups and downs.

If the Bulls had the entire 90's without MJ they would have almost certainly had years where they would have advanced further than the second round. They were on par with the Knicks in 94' by every metric. Look at the 1992-1997 Knicks' variance: ECSF, ECF, Finals, ECSF. According to 3ball, because they made the ECSF in 92' they could not improve in future years because teams always achieve the same outcomes.

[3ball]

The Bulls in '94 weren't the same team that had just 3peated. Cartwright and Paxson were on their last leg and barely played. Scott Williams was injured most of the year.


Cartwright and Paxson had the same minutes and production in 1993... Cartwright averaged 5.6 ppg in 19 minutes in both 1993 and 1994...

Paxson averaged 4.2 ppg in 17 minutes in 1993, which declined to 2.6 ppg and 13 minutes in 1994.. This isn't making any difference on that team, especially considering the Bulls replaced Paxson with Kerr, who averaged a career-high 8.6 ppg.

As for Scott Williams - he averaged 5.6 ppg in 1993, which was replaced by Wennington's 7.1 ppg.





Kukoc had trouble adjusting to his first year, shot low percentages across the board and his defense was ridiculously bad.


This is an utter LIE.

Kukoc averaged 11/4/3 in 24 minutes and was the Bulls biggest clutch player - he hit all 4 game-winners for the Bulls in 1994 season, including the walk-off winner that prevented the Bulls from going down 0-3 to the Knicks in 1994 ECSF.

The Bulls would've been swept if it wasn't for that miracle shot, described by Ernie Johnson in detail here (Ernie mentions how Kukoc hit all the GW's for the Bulls all year):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=0m10s





Only an idiot would say the '94 Bulls was a 3peat caliber team.


Can you read??.. I said the 1994 Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and they weren't going to rebound and win the championship next yeearr either - they were PERMANENTLY A 2ND ROUND TEAM (or worse) without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we were measuring that gap with our arms, how big would it be.

Otoh, 2014 Miami Heat were not a 3-peat dynasty - they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC), and were actually beat worse than any team EVER... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those Western Conference teams.

At the time of their record defeat in the Finals, they were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference playoff team, at best.. Then Lebron left...

That's a lot different then the Bulls actually WINNING the 3-peat with everyone still in their prime and therefore actually BEING a 3-peat caliber team......... and then falling to permanent 2nd Round status (or worse) when MJ retired.

[3ball]

Why you acting like the best the 94 Bulls could do was be a 2nd round team?
They pushed NYK to 7 games and could have very easily won that series if they had gotten an extra lucky bounce or two.


How can you say "if this, and if that", when the Bulls go down 0-3 if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series with his walk-off in Game 3?

That was a crazy game, where Pippen refused to enter the game on the last play because Phil drew it up for Toni instead.. Then Kukoc saved the day in a highly unlikely, completely unique situation.

The whole "if this, if that" bullshit never works, and it definitely doesn't work here, considering the same logic can be used to say the Bulls should've been down 0-3..

Ernie Johnson describes Kukoc's miracle shot here, and the crazy situation surrounding it (Ernie mentions how Kukoc hit all the GW's for the Bulls all year):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=0m10s

[Roundball_Rock]

What is most amusing about MJ stans vis-a-vis the 94' Bulls is the following claims MJ stans make:

*The 90's were an era of incredible competition.
*The 90's Knicks were the Bulls' toughest competition.
*The 90's Knicks were a great team.

Yet the 94' Bulls, who were equal to the 94' Knicks (the best iteration of those 90's Knicks!), by every available metric*, were an above average team. If the latter is true then it also cannot follow that the 90's Knicks were a great team--meaning MJ had no real competition. Which is it MJ stans? Were the 90's Knicks great or not? If the former, then it logically follows that the Bulls without MJ also were a top team. If they weren't, you are saying MJ won in a weak era.

The fact is the Bulls came within a whisker of beating the Bulls' top competition with a scrub at SG. That is like the Lakers nearly beating the Spurs with a D-League SG in place of Kobe or the Heat nearly beating the Pacers with a D-League SF. Can anyone envision that happening?

*Knicks: 57 wins, 1 superstar (4th in MVP voting), 3 all-stars, HOF coach. 4-3 versus Chicago in the ECSF.
*Bulls: 55 wins, 1 superstar (3rd in MVP voting), 3 all-stars, HOF coach. 3-4 versus the Knicks in the ECSF.

[ShaqTwizzle]

How can you say "if this, and if that", when the Bulls go down 0-3 if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series with his walk-off in Game 3?


Sure that is true but even MJ relied on roleplayers to hit clutch gamewinning shots on occasion and coming back from an 0-2 hole isn't a huge deal or that rare.

Oh and Pippen had 25 / 7 / 5 on 59%TS in that G3 so obviously he was still the biggest reason they won that game.

In the end they took the Bulls too 7 games and three of their losses were by 5, 4 and 1 point.

I just want you to acknowledge the fact that they could have easily ended up winning that series and if they had they probably would have ended up making the Finals.

So saying they were at best a 2nd round exit is disingenuous and completely untrue certainly for that specific year if not others...

[Roundball_Rock]

I just want you to acknowledge the fact that they could have easily ended up winning that series and if they had they probably would have ended up making the Finals.

So saying they were at best a 2nd round exit is disingenuous and completely untrue certainly for that specific year if not others...

Exactly.


How can you say "if this, and if that", when the Bulls go down 0-3 if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series with his walk-off in Game 3?

3ball always brings that up but ignores the Bulls narrowly lost Games 1 and 2. Yes, the Bulls came close to going down 0-3 but they also came close to being up 3-0! It was a close series in which the Bulls had fourth quarter leads in 6 of 7 games.

[3ball]

Oh and Pippen had 25 / 7 / 5 on 59%TS in that G3 so obviously he was still the biggest reason they won that game.



Dude... you have no idea what happened in that game and are talking out of your ASS.

The Bulls lost a 20 point lead in the 4th quarter and were on life support before Kukoc saved them (if you had clicked on the youtube link I posted earlier, you would've seen Ernie Johnson describe the entire situation in detail (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=0m10s)).

Here's Pippen's last possession before deciding to SIT OUT the final possession, in his greatest choke ever (of many):


https://media.giphy.com/media/TmnwWY6ALWeUo/giphy.gif






So saying they were at best a 2nd round exit is disingenuous and completely untrue certainly for that specific year if not others


Just like you claim the Bulls could've won, I can claim the Bulls were a Kukoc walk-off away from being swept..

Regardless, they were a 2nd Round team - that's how good they were - they weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and win the championship next year - they were PERMANENTLY A 2ND ROUND TEAM (or worse) without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we were measuring that gap with our arms, how big would it be.

Otoh, 2014 Miami Heat were not a 3-peat dynasty - they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC), and were actually beat worse than any team EVER... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those Western Conference teams.

At the time of their record defeat in the Finals, they were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference playoff team, at best.. Then Lebron left...

That's a lot different then the Bulls actually WINNING the 3-peat with everyone still in their prime and therefore actually BEING a 3-peat caliber team......... and then falling to permanent 2nd Round status (or worse) when MJ retired.
.

[ShaqTwizzle]

The Bulls lost a 25 point lead in the 2nd half and were on life support before Kukoc saved them.


And how did they build that lead?
I judge a players performance by how he played from start to finish not just how he did in the final few seconds.

Pippen had 25 / 7 / 5 on 59%TS in that G3.
Kukoc had 8 / 4 / 4 on 46%TS in that G3.

If you really think Kukoc deserves even half the credit that Pippen deserves for that victory then you're insane.

[3ball]

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.

MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7


If your simple logic regarding DRtg was valid, then inferior players to Jordan (Melo, Kobe, Bonzi) wouldn't shoot between 48-61% against the Spurs' 99.6 defense - they'd shoot the same 39-40% that Jordan shot against the similarly-rated defenses you listed above..

Analyzing DRtg properly is far more complicated - here's a few examples of how complicated it is..

For starters, your DRtg's are from the regular season - in the playoffs, the Knicks DRtg was an abysmal 107.0.. In the ACTUAL SERIES (the 1993 ECF) it was 112.4... It was horrific.. Jordan has many series where he shot much better against defenses that gave up far fewer points per possession... See how complicated it is??... No one who watched the 1993 ECF would say the Knicks played weak defense - but according to your erroneous use of DRtg, their defense was garbage.

Also, look at the 1989 and 1990 Pistons defense - they had some of the best defensive personnel ever, and played extraordinary team defense.. So why aren't their DRtg's as good as many crappier defensive teams in the 90's or 2000's??... It's because STYLE OF PLAY in any given era affects DRtg's.. In this case, offensive rebounding rate is the key factor - it was higher in the Pistons' era because teams didn't shoot 3-pointers - the higher proportion of 2-pointers increased offensive rebounding rate and consequently ORtg/DRtg as well.. This is statistical fact - previous eras had MUCH higher offensive rebounding rate due to the higher proportion of 2-pointers, which increased ORtg's and DRtg's for all teams.

Btw, in addition to higher offensive rebounding rate, I have a less-provable theory why DRtg's were higher: when teams get hot from midrange, THERE IS NO DEFENSE THAT CAN STOP THAT... It's not like 3-pointers, where you can get a hand in the face and drastically reduce the efficiency - good midrange shooters are accustomed to having defender draped all over... So in previous eras, when teams LIVED off midrange, they could get hot and be unstoppable.. I think that happened a lot in previous eras, like the aforementioned Bulls-Knicks series in 1993, where both teams had high ORtg/DRtg, even though it was a tough, grind-it-out defensive series... Just look at Game 4 - MJ scored 54 points ON ALL JUMPSHOTS, mostly midrange.. This isn't an exaggerration.. This shows that when guys or teams get hot from midrange, DRtg goes out the window because there is no defense that can stop it.

And again, the simplest way that you're misusing DRtg is that you're conflating regular season DRtg's with playoff DRtg's.. Playoff basketball is much different, and the Spurs DRtg in the 2007 playoffs was 103.1... Whereas the 1998 Utah Jazz had a playoff DRtg of 100.4 - this is a lower playoff DRtg than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals.
.

[Mr Feeny]

Amazing to watch 3ball when he's on a roll, owning 4 posters at the same time.

Tbf some of these comments (by bankei, roundrock and etx) are embarrassingly easy to counter. These kids don't seem to know what they're talking about and are just handing out ammunition with every mess-up.

Still, credit to 3ball (as annoying as he is) for picking apart every ridiculous post that's been coming by these kids.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Kukoc won the game single-handedly at the end!!!.. They don't win without Kukoc miracle shot!!!!


Such idiotic logic... and you know better.

Let us imagine that Jordan scores 50pts in some random playoff game and gives his team a big lead after 3 quarters but then he plays poorly in the 4th, the opposing team makes it close and Steve Kerr ends up hitting a gamewinner at the very end after playing like crap the whole game.
Does Kerr become the the MVP of that game...?

Pippen had a great overall game and made a bone headed play at the end.
Kukoc had a shitty overall game and made a great play at the end.

Kukoc prior to his last shot had put up 5pts / 4ast on 39%TS.
Maybe if "Kukoc the savior" hadn't played so horribly and below his usual standards during regulation they wouldn't have even needed a gamewinner eh?

[3ball]

Let us imagine that Jordan scores 50pts in some random playoff game and gives his team a big lead after 3 quarters but then he plays poorly in the 4th, the opposing team makes it close and Steve Kerr ends up hitting a gamewinner at the very end after playing like crap the whole game.
Does Kerr become the the MVP of that game...?


Depends if MJ sits out the final possession in an epic choke, thus failing his responsibility as team leader.. If he fails his responsibility as team leader and Kerr saves him (like Kukoc did Pippen), then Kerr gets credit for the win.

But thank goodness for Kukoc's miracle - otherwise, Pippen's choke and subsequent sweep would be a massive stain on his career that he doesn't recover from.. Actually, a Bulls' sweep gets Pippen traded almost certainly, given his disprespectful blunder.. Kukoc saved that ***** from getting traded.. :confusedshrug:

[hitmanyr2k]

Cartwright and Paxson had the same minutes and production in 1993... Cartwright averaged 5.6 ppg in 19 minutes in both 1993 and 1994...

Paxson averaged 4.2 ppg in 17 minutes in 1993, which declined to 2.6 ppg and 13 minutes in 1994.. This isn't making any difference on that team, especially considering the Bulls replaced Paxson with Kerr, who averaged a career-high 8.6 ppg.

As for Scott Williams - he averaged 5.6 ppg in 1993, which was replaced by Wennington's 7.1 ppg.

Look at the games played by those players in '93 and '94 dumbass. They drastically decreased.

Cartwright - played 63 games in '93, only 41 in '94.
Paxson - played 59 games in '93, only 27 in '94.

Those two players were done. Cartwright was on bad knees. And Kerr and Wennington aren't replacing Paxson and Cartwright's 3peat experience.


This is an utter LIE.

Kukoc averaged 11/4/3 in 24 minutes and was the Bulls biggest clutch player - he hit all 4 game-winners for the Bulls in 1994 season, including the walk-off winner that prevented the Bulls from going down 0-3 to the Knicks in 1994 ECSF.

Kukoc struggled with his shooting all season and his defense was non-existent. A couple of fluke shots isn't going to change that fact. And his minutes and production decreased across the board in the playoffs. He was hardly any kind of consistent replacement needed to replace Jordan.


Can you read??.. I said the 1994 Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and they weren't going to rebound and win the championship next yeearr either - they were PERMANENTLY A 2ND ROUND TEAM (or worse) without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we were measuring that gap with our arms, how big would it be.

No shit they were a 2nd round team jackass. They had 7 new faces on the team with barely any playoff experience in their first year of learning the triangle. And the team no longer had a 1-2 punch. It was a single perimeter superstar team which usually don't go far. Just the year before the Bulls WITH their 3peat team intact BARELY beat the Knicks in the '93 ECF. Lucky for them they had a 1-2 punch. When Jordan was building a brickhouse shooting 3-17 in must-win Game 3 it was Pippen scoring 29 points picking up the slack. When Jordan was building another brickhouse in Game 6 shooting 8-25 and barely scoring a goddamn thing in the 2nd half it was Pippen closing out the Knicks to avoid Game 7 at MSG and propelling the Bulls to the '93 Finals. In '94 Pippen didn't have that same luxury of having another player in his prime beside him that could score 20+ points, play all-world defense, rebound and be a playmaker.

[3ball]

Cartwright - played 63 games in '93, only 41 in '94.
Paxson - played 59 games in '93, only 27 in '94.


lol at thinking guys who average literally 2 ppg and 4ppg make a difference..

and again, BOTH guys were replaced with better players who produced much more.





No shit they were a 2nd round team jackass. They had 7 new faces on the team with barely any playoff experience in their first year of learning the triangle.


The Bulls were essentially the same team in 1994 - all the players were the same, except several significant IMPROVEMENTS of various marginal role players...

i.e. Kerr and his career-high 8.6 ppg replaced Paxson and his 4 ppg.. Longley and his 8 ppg replaced Cartwright's 6 ppg.. Wennington and his 8 ppg replaced Scott Williams and his 5 ppg..

And the Bulls added Kukoc, who averaged 11/4/3 in 24 minutes and was their best clutch player.

LOL at you for thinking that the Bulls were a different team just because a few bench players were replaced by BETTER players - every Bulls championship teams had similar, immaterial turnover..






When Jordan was building a brickhouse shooting 3-17 in must-win Game 3 it was Pippen scoring 29 points picking up the slack. When Jordan was building another brickhouse in Game 6 shooting 8-25 and barely scoring a goddamn thing in the 2nd half it was Pippen closing out the Knicks to avoid Game 7 at MSG and propelling the Bulls to the '93 Finals.



You're saying Pippen's contribution compared to MJ's??.... :yaohappy:

Jordan scored at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in EVERY playoffs series, except two, when he averaged 5 ppg and 8 ppg more.

In addition to scoring literally 50-400% more than Pippen in substantially every playoff series, Jordan assisted on a higher proportion of teammate field goals - he led the team in assist %:


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


So MJ scored 50-400% more than Pippen, while leading the team in passing and playing GOAT defense... MJ carried the biggest load of all time.. No one else is close

[3ball]

.
Btw, this was the consensus about Pippen:



Shaquille O'Neal:

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)



Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s



JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:

[indent][I]

[LAZERUSS]

The league was less diluted then so each roster was stronger in absolute terms.



Pippen was not a permanent starter (he started in the playoffs in 88'* but reverted to the bench the next year) until 1/3 the way through the 89' season. Moreover, Pippen missed 9 games altogether then. The Bulls went 47-35 overall that year. Without Pippen they were 4-5 (a 36 win pace). More revealingly, they went 24-11 when Pippen played 35+ minutes. I don't remember their exact record in the 56 games he started but it was markedly better than when he was on the bench. Chicago started that season 13-12--after Pippen became a starter they went on a big winning streak.

Maybe all of the above is just coincidental, though. :oldlol:

*The first round was best of 5 back then. Pippen started for the first time, had a huge game. Without that the Bulls would have lost in the first round for the fourth consecutive year.



:applause:

MJ stans conveniently always neglect this. The Bulls nearly won the #1 seed replacing MJ with a D-Leaguer. Imagine if they had been able to get a legitimate SG. The Bulls had the worst starting SG in the league and still were contenders. What does that say?

The Heat replaced LeBron with Deng, an above average SF who was a former all-star. Look at how much they declined in 2015. Now imagine the Heat replacing LeBron with a D-League SF because all the free agents had been signed by October.



The Bulls actually outscored the Knicks during the series. The Knick wins came by 1, 4, 5, and 10. One of them featured a phantom foul on the final play, gifting the Knicks Game 5 and a 3-2 series lead. Everyone other than MJ stans agree that was one of the worst calls of all-time.

Moreover, it is incredibly stupid to look at one year's performance and assume that same level of performance would exist in every other year. There is always some variation in yearly performance. In the 90's the top East teams outside the Bulls were the Knicks, Cavs, Magic, and Pacers. All of these teams had ups and downs.

If the Bulls had the entire 90's without MJ they would have almost certainly had years where they would have advanced further than the second round. They were on par with the Knicks in 94' by every metric. Look at the 1992-1997 Knicks' variance: ECSF, ECF, Finals, ECSF. According to 3ball, because they made the ECSF in 92' they could not improve in future years because teams always achieve the same outcomes.

THIS!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

The REALITY was, the '93-94 Bulls had to scramble to replace Jordan...with the legendary Pete Myers.

Furthermore, Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games that season. Think about that...they went 55-27 with their two best players (and no MJ) missing 22 games. Had those two been relatively healthy, and they surely would have won 60+ games.

Which would have been HUGE. Why? Because the Knicks finished 56-26, and the Rockets went 58-24.

And this nonsense that the '94 Bulls were an ordinary second round team????? As RR posted above, they outscored the Knicks in the ECSF's. Furthermore, they went 3-0 at HOME in that series. Had they had HCA (which they surely would have had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games), they would have beaten NY in the ECSF's. And given the fact that they wiped out the Pacers during the regular season, 4-1, there is very little doubt that they would have beaten them in the ECF's.

As it was, the Knicks beat the Pacers in the ECF's, and advanced to the Finals...where they lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets by four points, and in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Again, had Pippen and Grant not missed a ton of games, they likely would have been in the Finals, and perhaps even won the title. So much for a mere SECOND ROUND Team theory.

BUT, it gets even worse for the Jordanites.

Why? Because Grant jumped ship prior to the '94-95 season, and really was not replaced.

So, here was Pippen SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying the '95 Bulls to a 34-31 record. Again, WITH Grant in '94, they went a deceptive 55-27 (easily a 60+ win team.)

Again, the SAME EXACT roster that went 55-27 withOUT Jordan...except with Jordan replacing Grant.

So, MJ returned to play the last 17 games of '95. Rusty? In his 5th game back, he scored 55 points. In the last game of the regular season he hung 33 points in 45 minutes. If anything, he was the HEALTHIEST player going into the post-season in the entire NBA.

And before someone gets excited about Chicago's 13-4 record in those last 17 games, keep in mind that the '94 Bulls played at what would have been a 12-5 pace in 17 games (and fully healthy, probably a 13-4 pace.)

Oh, and in the playoffs, Jordan's numbers were nearly identical to those of his '93 title run. So, in effect, he played nearly the same as his '93 post-season.

BUT, the Bulls WERE an ORDINARY second round team. They were bounced 4-2, by a 57-25 Orlando team. The same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals. The '95 Bulls post-season was a SHELL of the '94 Bulls post-season.

Oh, and BTW, guess who the MAIN COG in beating MJ's '95 Bulls in the ECSF's?

How about this..."The MVP of the '95 ECSF's"...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357166

(thanks to Jlip BTW.)

An 18-11 .647 FG% series in which he was arguably the best player in the entire series.

Of course, GRANT always always came up HUGE in his post-seasons. Just look up his OTrgs in his prime post-season career.


Ok, so now the Bulls ownership realized that even with MJ, they had no chance of winning a title...without a dominant PF (like GRANT.) So, they went out and signed HOFer Dennis Rodman.

Here was MJ basically replacing Grant, on a 55-27 team (realistically a 60+ win team BTW)...and then ADDING a HOF PF to it! Is it any wonder why the '96-98 Bulls were able to overcome Jordan's poor shooting in those Finals to win three more titles????

BTW, there were articles proclaiming Rodman as a FMVP in '96...

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html


And Pippen as FMVP in '98...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone


And let's get real here, too.

The 90's were a watered down era. Most teams were lucky to have TWO great players, and many had less. The '90's Bulls never faced teams of the caliber of the '80's Celtics and Lakers, nor the early 80's Sixers. And they were 0-3 against the Bad Boys at their peak. It wasn't until the Pistons crumbled (and with Grant and Pippen coming up HUGE) that they finally beat the Bad Boys. And please, don't give me the '91 Lakers. They were a SHELL of their 80's selves. Even the brilliance of Magic came as he was on the downside of his career.

And how about this?

Since we saw what the 90's Bulls did without Jordan...going 55-27 and a STRONG title contender...

let's remove the best player from every other team in the 90's, as well. Guys like Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Miller, Robinson, et al.

How many rings do the Jordan-less Bulls win the in the 90's, if every team is missing their best player? Probably at least six.

[BIZARRO]

I've never seen a thread with this bad of an OP start on ISH, where the content of the OP's original post argues the complete opposite/so much against what he is actually trying to argue for. :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

I've never seen a thread with this bad of an OP start on ISH, where the content of the OP's original post argues the complete opposite/so much against what he is actually trying to argue for. :facepalm

His point is very valid.

MJ had a TON of help in his six rings (and again, in the watered down 90's.)

SOME "Jordanites" argue that he had POOR surrounding talent.

Well, when he ACTUALLY did, his teams went nowhere and were a win away from being swept in the first round three straight times. The man did not walk on water.

It wasn't until he had 55+ win supporting casts (and then ADDED Rodman to them) that he started winning his rings.

[BIZARRO]

His point is very valid.

MJ had a TON of help in his six rings (and again, in the watered down 90's.)

SOME "Jordanites" argue that he had POOR surrounding talent.

Well, when he ACTUALLY did, his teams went nowhere and were a win away from being swept in the first round three straight times. The man did not walk on water.

It wasn't until he had 55+ win supporting casts (and then ADDED Rodman to them) that he started winning his rings.


You should change your post to "he had help winning a TON of rings".

And that loaded comment about the walk on water. He DID in those series. You know as well as I do they played one of the truly great teams in the 86 (and 87 Celts (before injuries hit them later in the playoffs) and a 59 win Bucks team.



And nope. You could do this with ANY player who's had success with a who they played with over their career, and they'd come off a hell of a lot more impressive than Mike's cast.

I watched almost every game of Mike's career. He CARRIED that s*** regularly. And other than Rodman, he MADE those players what they were.

And quite frankly if Kukoc, BJ, and an ancient Harper are the players near the top of your list in a 14 year career, then GTFO.

Just shows how Mike did more with less than anyone.

When the playoffs came, his stats go way up. No coincidence. Because it was money time. Time to carry the team. And that's his playoff stats went up. Because when the going got tough. Mike upped it, when hardly ANYONE else on the team did.


Listen bro, I love your Wilt posts. And I have Wilt as the greatest center ever. But Mike played with crap relative to other great players.

But what separates Mike from others is he stayed and turned crap into something that was functional. AND he turned it up like NO ONE EVER DID when it mattered in the playoffs.

[juju151111]

Kukoc won the game single-handedly at the end!!!.. They don't win without Kukoc miracle shot!!!!

According to Phil Jackson, Pippen asked out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=2m49s) of the last play and sat on the bench.

Interestingly, if Pippen had gotten his way and been allowed to brick the Final shot, the Bulls get swept!!!...

And the sweep was the Bulls' true capability - that's what was supposed to happen, but the Kukoc shot gave the Bulls 2nd life and adrenalized the team.
They really wasn't a 2nd round team. There first round opponent was filled with injures.

[LAZERUSS]

You should change your post to "he had help winning a TON of rings".

And that loaded comment about the walk on water. He DID in those series. You know as well as I do they played one of the truly great teams in the 86 (and 87 Celts (before injuries hit them later in the playoffs) and a 59 win Bucks team.



And nope. You could do this with ANY player who's had success with a who they played with over their career, and they'd come off a hell of a lot more impressive than Mike's cast.

I watched almost every game of Mike's career. He CARRIED that s*** regularly. And other than Rodman, he MADE those players what they were.

And quite frankly if Kukoc, BJ, and an ancient Harper are the players near the top of your list in a 14 year career, then GTFO.

Just shows how Mike did more with less than anyone.

When the playoffs came, his stats go way up. No coincidence. Because it was money time. Time to carry the team. And that's his playoff stats went up. Because when the going got tough. Mike upped it, when hardly ANYONE else on the team did.


Listen bro, I love your Wilt posts. And I have Wilt as the greatest center ever. But Mike played with crap relative to other great players.

But what separates Mike from others is he stayed and turned crap into something that was functional. AND he turned it up like NO ONE EVER DID when it mattered in the playoffs.

First of all...

CONTEXT.

Again, the '94 Bulls were an example of the quality of teams in the 90's. Basically without their best player, and with their two remaining stars missing a combined 22 games... a 55-27 record, and realistically a title contender.

The watered down 90's consisted of 60 win teams with maybe two stars. Unlike the 80's, which had STACKED rosters of 3-4- and even 5 HOFers.

And Jordan had his share of flawed performances. He was basically outplayed by Mongrief in their '85 H2H. He choked big time in the clinching game three of the '86 series against the Celtics. In their '87 rematch, against a crumbling Celtic team, he shot .417, which included a 9-35 performance in the clinching (and sweeping) loss. In the '89 ECF's, he QUIT on his team in a game five of a series that was tied 2-2, and ultimately a 4-2 loss.

Oh, and his numbers DECLINED considerably against the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And his teammates overcame shooting of .455, .427, and ,415 in his last three Finals.

No one is arguing against his place in NBA history. He is a Top-5 GOAT, and has a case for the GOAT.

BUT, the point of the OP was that, yes, he had a TON of help along the way.

[3ball]

.
.................................................. All Star Teammates


All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals
.

[guy]

You should change your post to "he had help winning a TON of rings".

And that loaded comment about the walk on water. He DID in those series. You know as well as I do they played one of the truly great teams in the 86 (and 87 Celts (before injuries hit them later in the playoffs) and a 59 win Bucks team.



And nope. You could do this with ANY player who's had success with a who they played with over their career, and they'd come off a hell of a lot more impressive than Mike's cast.

I watched almost every game of Mike's career. He CARRIED that s*** regularly. And other than Rodman, he MADE those players what they were.

And quite frankly if Kukoc, BJ, and an ancient Harper are the players near the top of your list in a 14 year career, then GTFO.

Just shows how Mike did more with less than anyone.

When the playoffs came, his stats go way up. No coincidence. Because it was money time. Time to carry the team. And that's his playoff stats went up. Because when the going got tough. Mike upped it, when hardly ANYONE else on the team did.


Listen bro, I love your Wilt posts. And I have Wilt as the greatest center ever. But Mike played with crap relative to other great players.

But what separates Mike from others is he stayed and turned crap into something that was functional. AND he turned it up like NO ONE EVER DID when it mattered in the playoffs.

This. :applause: and yes somehow Grant, Oakley, BJ, Kukoc, Harper are all time great help but mentioning Rice, Malone, Payton, MWP, Odom, Bynum, or Howard for Kobe or Z, Hughes, Shaq, Jamison, Mo, Allen, or TT for Lebron would cause an uproar to his fans :oldlol:

[BIZARRO]

First of all...

CONTEXT.

Again, the '94 Bulls were an example of the quality of teams in the 90's. Basically without their best player, and with their two remaining stars missing a combined 22 games... a 55-27 record, and realistically a title contender.

The watered down 90's consisted of 60 win teams with maybe two stars. Unlike the 80's, which had STACKED rosters of 3-4- and even 5 HOFers.

And Jordan had his share of flawed performances. He was basically outplayed by Mongrief in their '85 H2H. He choked big time in the clinching game three of the '86 series against the Celtics. In their '87 rematch, against a crumbling Celtic team, he shot .417, which included a 9-35 performance in the clinching (and sweeping) loss. In the '89 ECF's, he QUIT on his team in a game five of a series that was tied 2-2, and ultimately a 4-2 loss.

Oh, and his numbers DECLINED considerably against the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And his teammates overcame shooting of .455, .427, and ,415 in his last three Finals.

No one is arguing against his place in NBA history. He is a Top-5 GOAT, and has a case for the GOAT.

BUT, the point of the OP was that, yes, he had a TON of help along the way.

Context. MJ is the only superstar who has a case for GOAT who NEVER played with anyone who demanded a double team.

So combine that with playing against the Bad Boys Pistons D. What he did was absolutely miraculous.

Let me ask you a question. Which I would love to hear you answer.

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?

[game3524]

"Phil Jackson had earned the head coaching job for the Eastern Conference stars and took his coaches along. The game would not be close, but it was instructive. The Bulls' coaches watched Celtics star Reggie Lewis fumble around almost in fear, Rodman virtually unable to make a layup and Brad Daugherty, Kevin Willis,a nd Michael Adams seemingly be overmatched. They talked about icon the way back to the hotel. In Jordan, Pippen, and Horace Grant, they believed they'd perhaps three of the five best players in the conference, and some of their role players seemed more capable than the All-Stars."-Jordan Rules, page 366.

So anyone acting like Chicago wasn't stacked during their championships runs are full of crap or a complete Jordan Stan.

[BIZARRO]

Really? :facepalm

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html

I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....

[game3524]

Really? :facepalm

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html



I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....

They are talking about 1992(That piece came from the Afterword chapter in the Jordan Rules).

And yes, you could make a case that Chicago had 3 of the 5 best players in the conference that year. We all know about MJ and Pippen, but Grant was extremely good in 1992 and should have made the all-star team.

[3ball]

So anyone acting like Chicago wasn't stacked during their championships runs are full of crap or a complete Jordan Stan.


Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:


"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s




Then Costas asked Isiah to respond to Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:


"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."



Later in the interview, Costas asked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=5m00s) Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever:


"I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah."



^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - that's how dominant he was.. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).

[LAZERUSS]

Really? :facepalm

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html

I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....

And yet, in the '91 ECF's, when MJ once again had his numbers decline, but this time against a Piston team that was a shell of what they had been the three previous seasons...it was Pippen and Grant coming up huge!

And then in the Finals, when a declining Magic somehow willed his rapidly declining Lakers to a stunning upset of the 63-19 Blazers, and with his supporting cast either injured or washed up...MJ was brilliant. But, so were Pippen and Grant.

Grant's post-season play has been enormously under-rated here. Take a look at what Grant's ORtgs were from '91 thru '96. He was even leading the entire NBA at times.

I find it interesting that there are those that rip Pippen's play in the '90 ECF's, and yet won't acknowledge that because of his play in '91, the Bulls were able to finally overtake a crumbling Piston team.

How important was GRANT in those runs? Take a look at what happened when he LEFT the Bulls. He immediately took a 50-32 Magic team to a 57-25 record, and a trip to the Finals. Oh, and along the way, he BURIED Jordan's Bulls with a massive 18-11 .647 FG% series. Furthermore, had he not been injured in the '96 ECF's, who knows how that series would have gone. As it was, with no Grant, the Bulls put Rodman on SHAQ at critical junctions, and he shut him down. How come no mention of that?

Look, if merely scoring were all that mattered, then how come MJ couldn't lead a team to a playoff win in '87? How come he was repeatedly beaten by the Bad Boys? Well, we all know the answer...he didn't have enough help. BUT, when he had the best supporting cast in the 90's...a cast that could win 55 games without him, and were basically a title-contender, again, withOUT him, they finally won rings.

To his credit, MJ was the key reason. But, let's get real here...without OUTSTANDING supporting casts, he would have never tasted a ring.

[3ball]

.
Argument for Jordan winning in 2014:



Dallas and OKC hold Kawhi to 12 ppg on ~45%


Result: competitive series


Portland and Heat let Kawhi score 18 ppg on ~57%


Result: Massacre


Clearly, the Spurs were a much better team when Kawhi was a bigger part of the offense.. In the Heat's case, Lebron's poor defense enabled Kawhi to be the best Spur for the first time in the playoffs, which unlocked the Spurs' optimal chemistry (120 ORtg) that we didn't see against other Spurs opponents, even Portland (113 ORtg).

If Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on sub-40% like DAL and OKC did, the Heat would've still lost, but it would've been much closer - now if he adds the offensive aggression AS WELL by doubling his shot attempts like he did in 2015 Finals (which won 2 games with worse supporting cast against better team), the Heat WIN.

So Lebron needed to accomplish 2 things that MJ would've done - don't let a role player be FMVP (hold Kawhi to the same 12 ppg that DAL and OKC did) and be more aggressive offensively like Jordan always was, and like Lebron was in 2015 Finals.. And don't get carried off the floor in Game 1 - it's kind of hard to hold teammates accountable on both sides of the ball after that.






.
We can all but PROVE Jordan would've won 2007 Finals:


Game 1 was an eight point game in 4th quarter, despite only 10 points on 5-15 from Lebron.. Games 3 and 4 were nail-biters, despite Lebron's 25 points on 39% and 24 points on 33%, respectively.

Now if Jordan shoots 15-25 percentage points better from the field, like all these guys did against the same Spurs team, the Cavs win all three of those games:


Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%



Lebron shot 65.4% at the rim (40% of offense), so his lower overall efficiency compared to his peers was due SPECIFICALLY to his jumpshooting efficiency:


.................................Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2





Since jumpshot efficiency was the key to good overall efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since he was a better midrange shooter than all these guys and frequently relied on his jumpshot to have big games.

Clearly, the Spurs' jumpshooting defense wasn't prohibitive, since everyone shot well on jumpshots, EXCEPT Lebron - Lebron simply can't shoot..




An argument for Jordan winning 2015 Finals


Once again, two things would've gotten the job done



1) don't let role player be FMVP

2) don't shoot 39% against no double-teams and constant clearouts


2015 is the easiest argument to make





Playoffs Per Game

JORDAN 1991: 31.1 ppg... 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 52.4 fg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg
LEBRON 2015: 30.1 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 8.5 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 1.1 bpg.. 41.7 fg.. 48.7 ts.. 105 ORtg


Now let's take pace and playing time out of the equation and look at PER POSSESSION:


Playoffs Per 100 Possessions

JORDAN 1991: 41.8 pts... 8.5 reb.. 11.2 ast.. 3.2 tov.. 3.2 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 52.4 fg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg
LEBRON 2015: 37.7 pts.. 14.2 reb.. 10.6 ast.. 5.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 41.7 fg.. 48.7 ts.. 105 ORtg


Other than defensive rebounds, MJ was superior across the board in every single category.

MJ guarded Magic Johnson (top 5 all-time player who was runner-up for MVP in 1991) and thoroughly outplayed him on the biggest stage, while Lebron defended a role player and let him get FMVP.

MJ also had a massive efficiency advantage across the board (11 points in FG & TS, and 22 points in ORtg)... Of course, we know for a fact that Lebron's poor efficiency was due to his horrific midrange percentage (32%) and overall jumpshooting outside of 5 feet (29%).








Jordan had MORE help in his '87 first round series vs. Celtics (Oakley averaged 20 ppg vs. Celtics)


MJ had far less help - just look the rosters man-for-man.. The difference is that MJ elevated teammates like Oakley in the playoffs (14 ppg in RS to 20 ppg vs. Celtics), while Lebron doesn't - the story is always how Lebron's teammates underperformed, yet again.. It's like clockwork..

At the higher level of competition (playoffs), Lebron's teams no longer get away with the poor chemistry fostered by his ball-dominant, playground style.. Otoh, MJ's sheer force of will and off-ball style is ideally-suited to elevate teammates once the competition kicks up a tier in the playoffs - MJ routinely elevated teammates, while Lebron doesn't.

The 1987 First Round is the perfect example of MJ's superior ability to get the most out of teammates.. The Celtics had a 119 ORtg in that series (nearly the same as Spurs 120 ORtg in 2014 Finals) - the Bulls couldn't stop the Celtics' experienced offense, so the only hope was to outscore them..

MJ did his best to keep the Bulls' offense in the game by using the incessant double-teams to enhance Oakley from a 14 ppg play-finisher (in RS) to a 20 ppg play-finisher vs. Celtics... Consequently, the Bulls had a 109 ORtg vs. the Celtics, which was enough to make each game competitive (losses of 4 pts, 11 pts, 9 pts).

If only Lebron had shown MJ's level of aggression in the 2014 Finals, so he could command the same double-teams and turn the talented Bosh into a superstar.. MJ surely would have, since he enhanced the far less-talented Oakley from a 14 ppg play-finisher into a 20 ppg play-finisher... Btw, Lebron was blown away by 14 ppg in 2014 Finals with a far superior supporting cast (including 20 ppg blowouts the final three games), while MJ only lost by 8 ppg in his three games vs. Celtics, despite a monumentally worse cast.

This is an incredible feat, and it shows how MJ elevated the play-finishing Oakley, just like he molded Pippen into the player the Bulls needed, Kerr (who had been waived by Orlando before joining Bulls), Paxson (who was nothing before Jordan's presence made him a recognizable name), and on and on and on down the list.. Unlike Lebron, where the story is ALWAYS how his teammates underperformed, Jordans' teammates excelled and thrived alongside him.

[tmacattack33]

Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:


"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s




Then Costas asked Isiah to respond to Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:


"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."



Later in the interview, Costas asked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=5m00s) Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever:


"I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah."



^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - that's how dominant he was.. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).

MJ is the Goat but comments from a current player are not such a great indication as you think.

1. Players are players...not scouts or gms or coaches...being a great player says nothing about your ability to analyze the game (MJ picked some terrible players with Washington's high draft picks)

2. Current players may have biases for or against other players, and can be biased for their era vs past eras (MJ himself does this)

3. The guy might just be trying to make himself look like a cool and humble dude in front of millions (KD does this currently...Lebron used to do it)

4. They'll get wrapped up in the moment and just try to make their comment front page newsworthy (just look at all the comments about Kobe from other players right after he decided to make this year his last year)

[Euroleague]

The second 3 peat Bulls teams would probably win 75 games every year now. Anyone that thinks those teams were not stacked like crazy is freaking insane.

[3ball]

The second 3 peat Bulls teams would probably win 75 games every year now. Anyone that thinks those teams were not stacked like crazy is freaking insane.



1996 Bulls weren't stacked, but Celtics and Lakers were:


.
..............................Playoff PPG


... 96' Bulls............... 86' Celtics...............87' Lakers

Jordan.... 30.7........ Bird........ 25.8........ Worthy...... 23.6
Pippen.... 16.9........ McHale.... 24.9........ Magic........ 21.8
Kukoc..... 10.8........ DJ.......... 16.2........ Kareem..... 19.2
Longley.... 8.4........ Ainge...... 15.6........ B Scott...... 14.8
Harper..... 8.8........ Parish..... 15.0........ M Cooper... 13.0
Rodman... 7.5........ Walton...... 7.9........ AC Green... 11.5
S Kerr...... 6.8....... Sichting..... 3.2........ Thompson.... 8.8


There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...

MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most.

[Euroleague]

1996 Bulls weren't stacked, but Celtics and Lakers were:


.
..............................Playoff PPG


... 96' Bulls............... 86' Celtics...............87' Lakers

Jordan.... 30.7........ Bird........ 25.8........ Worthy...... 23.6
Pippen.... 16.9........ McHale.... 24.9........ Magic........ 21.8
Kukoc..... 10.8........ DJ.......... 16.2........ Kareem..... 19.2
Longley.... 8.4........ Ainge...... 15.6........ B Scott...... 14.8
Harper..... 8.8........ Parish..... 15.0........ M Cooper... 13.0
Rodman... 7.5........ Walton...... 7.9........ AC Green... 11.5
S Kerr...... 6.8....... Sichting..... 3.2........ Thompson.... 8.8


There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...

MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/SEp6Zq6ZkzUNW/200.gif

[feyki]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[3ball]

Pippen wasn't THAT easily replaced, but he was a worse 2nd option and replaceable by all these guys:


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (nearly every year)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
David Robinson or Duncan (1998)
Stockton (every year)
Shawn Kemp (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12000670&postcount=12) (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


Even if you disagree with 1 or 2 here and there - most of them are valid - Pippen simply wasn't a top 10 second option..

But I will concede that there were far more 3rd options (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393882) better than Horace (nearly half the league's 3rd options were better), and ditto for 4th options - there were a super ton of 4th options (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894) better than BJ Armstrong (i.e. Byron Scott/Michael Cooper/AC Green... Ray Allen... Dennis Johnson... Manu or Kawhi).

The reason MJ still won 6 rings despite having a 2nd option that wasn't top 10, and 3rd/4th options that were pedestrian, is because Jordan scored a higher proportion of his team's points than anyone ever has, including at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their CAREERS (except two, when MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. He also scored 50% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376) of his team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while he was on the floor).

In addition to his goat scoring and clutch, MJ also led his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49))..

No other player in history was required to score 10 more ppg than their 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers, AND lead the team in passing.

[3ball]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/SEp6Zq6ZkzUNW/200.gif



Show me where a player was required to:


1) score at least 10 more ppg than his 2nd option for every playoff series of his career (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more)

2) lead his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49))

3) AND play goat-level defense.


I'll wait.
.

[game3524]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

This all you can do when it comes to MJ stans.

[LAZERUSS]

You're saying Pippen's contribution compared to MJ's??.... :yaohappy:

Jordan scored at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in EVERY playoffs series, except two, when he averaged 5 ppg and 8 ppg more.

In addition to scoring literally 50-300% more than Pippen in every playoff series, Jordan assisted on a higher proportion of teammate field goals - he led the team in assist %:


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


So MJ scored 50-300% more than Pippen, while leading the team in passing and playing GOAT defense... MJ carried the biggest load of all time.. No one else is close



It doesn't matter that you overrate Jordan's cast - regardless of how much you overrate Jordan's cast, his cast was worse than anyone he's compared to.

Let's compare MJ's teammates to Magic's, Kareem's, Bird's, Duncan's, Lebron's, Kobe's - YOU NAME IT - his cast simply had far less talent than these guys...

This is easily proven by counting each player's all-star teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11988792&postcount=121) and comparing results achieved with said teammates.

And let's compare competition to what Magic and Bird faced, as well. Give me the list of teams that MJ facerd that had anywhere near the talent of the 80's Lakers and Celtics. Or the talent of the Moses-led Sixers. Or the talent of the prime Bad Boys (and not the shell of what they were in '91)?

Again, the 90's were so watered down that a '94 Bulls team was a TRUE TITLE CONTENDER...withOUT Jordan.

And then, with Jordan, they STILL couldn't win in '95. So what did they do next? They added HOFer Rodman!

BY FAR the most talented teams in the league.

And we saw what an injury-riddled '94 Bulls team could do...without Jordan.

So, let's remove the best player from every team in that decade, including MJ, and how many titles do the 90's Bulls win???? I would argue easily six. How many titles would the Rockets have won without Hakeem? The Sonics without Payton? The Suns without Barkley? The Jazz without Karl?

That is CONTEXT my friend.

[WindmiLL]

Euroleague and 3ball going at it :lol


https://49.media.tumblr.com/f8d306007614d5c2bdddd86fdfbc94e0/tumblr_nna5xeJO681t9sksvo1_400.gif

[3ball]

.
Proof that Jordan would've won 2007 Finals:


Game 1 was an eight point game in 4th quarter, despite only 10 points on 5-15 from Lebron.. Games 3 and 4 were nail-biters, despite Lebron's 25 points on 39% and 24 points on 33%, respectively.

Now if Jordan shoots 15-25 percentage points better from the field, like all these guys did against the same Spurs team, the Cavs win all three of those games:


Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%



Lebron shot 65.4% at the rim (40% of offense), so his lower overall efficiency compared to his peers was due SPECIFICALLY to his jumpshooting efficiency:


.................................Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2





Since jumpshot efficiency was the key to good overall efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since he was a better midrange shooter than all these guys and frequently relied on his jumpshot to have big games.

Clearly, the Spurs' jumpshooting defense wasn't prohibitive, since everyone shot well on jumpshots, EXCEPT Lebron - Lebron simply can't shoot..
.

[LAZERUSS]

Essentially, no one in history has led their team in scoring BY THAT MUCH, while also leading them in passing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), and playing goat defense.

Only MJ did this.. :pimp:

Wilt routinely led his teams in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and often in passing...all while playing THE GOAT defense.

Unfortunately for him, his teams were vastly over-matched in those years by Celtic teams with FIVE to NINE HOFers.

And when he finally had a supporting cast that was the equal of Russell's, and healthy, they destroyed the "Dynasty"...all with Chamberlain dominating in every facet of the game.

TEAM game. When Jordan was surrounded with 55+ win rosters, and facing teams with less talent....yes, he won six rings.

[WindmiLL]

3ball you have to realize what a loser you are if freaking Euroleague just dissmises you with a simple gif and doesn't even bother responding :roll:

[Straight_Ballin]

Show me where a player was required to:


1) score at least 10 more ppg than his 2nd option for every playoff series (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more)

2) lead his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49))

3) AND play goat-level defense.


I'll wait.

You are in for a long ass wait.

[Da_Realist]

And yet, in the '91 ECF's, when MJ once again had his numbers decline, but this time against a Piston team that was a shell of what they had been the three previous seasons...it was Pippen and Grant coming up huge!

1) I can't believe I just read this. Before you write another sentence, you should go back and watch these game again. Games 3 and 4 especially is some of the most dominant basketball that's ever been played. I know you've been watching Basketball-Reference.com but I still can't figure how you can make that statement because even there, aside from Game 1, his numbers look good.

2) What do you mean by "once again"?

[LAZERUSS]

1) I can't believe I just read this. Before you write another sentence, you should go back and watch these game again. Games 3 and 4 especially is some of the most dominant basketball that's ever been played. I know you've been watching Basketball-Reference.com but I still can't figure how you can make that statement because even there, aside from Game 1, his numbers look good.

2) What do you mean by "once again"?

His scoring and efficiency declined against the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. In '91, he finally had a normal efficiency, but again, his scoring declined ..albeit, slightly.

Same with Shaq against the Robinson led Spurs from '99 thru '02. And Kareem's fell off the cliff against Wilt and Thurmond in the early 70's.

That's why I find it laughable whenever some idiot brings up Wilt's ":decline" in the post-season (and really, only his scoring). Chamberlain faced the Russell-led Celtics EIGHT times; the Thurmond-led Warriors THREE times; the Reed-led Knicks FOUR times; and the Kareem led Bucks TWICE. Hell, he seldom had the luxury of first round cannon-fodder, or post-seasons with 3-4 playoff series.

Think about this...Russell basically beefed up his entire post-season numbers in FIVE series against the Lakers (he faced them six times BTW, and in the one in which he faced WILT, he did virtually nothing.)

And yet, Chamberlain never faced the Lakers at all in his entire post-season career. And he put up staggering numbers against them in his regular season H2H's (in seasons of between 8-12 games against them.) Safe-to-say, that had Wilt faced them FIVE times in his prime, and he likely would hold virtually every post-season scoring record.


In any case, we saw what MJ did with poor-to-average rosters. Nothing. Struggled to win a damn game. Meanwhile Wuilt was taking essentially last place rosters to within and eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history. And we all know what happened when he FINALLY had an equal roster (that was healthy.)

MJ took good-to-great supporting casts, in a weaker 90's, to six titles. Not knocking him, per se, but those that somehow believe he was a miracle worker didn't actually see him play, either. The man did not walk on water.

[3ball]

'94 Bulls team was a TRUE TITLE CONTENDER


The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.





How many titles would the Rockets have won without Hakeem? The Sonics without Payton? The Suns without Barkley? The Jazz without Karl?


All of these teams had superior talent after their #1 option... But none of these teams had 3-peat chemistry and teamwork.

And that's the difference.. Because we already know that the Bulls needed MJ to be the best scorer ever and score 10 ppg more than his 2nd option for every playoff series.

So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers - it was due to the 3-peat caliber of chemistry, mental ability and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ.
.

[LAZERUSS]

The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

If we were to measure the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty with our arms, we can't spread our arms wide enough.. It's a massive gap.



All of these teams had superior talent after their #1 option... But none of these teams had 3-peat chemistry and teamwork.

And that's the difference - the Bulls needed MJ to be the best scorer ever and score 10 ppg more than his 2nd option for every playoff series.

So when the Bull made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers - it was due to the 3-peat caliber of chemistry, mental ability and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ.

You are obviouslky referring to the '95 Bulls, who were brutalized in the ECSF's by a team that would get swept by another 47-35 team in the Finals.

In the '94 ECSF's, the Bulls were a play away from winning that series in six games. Furthermore, had they been healthy during the regular season, they likely would have won considerably more games than their actual 55. In fact, had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games, they likely would have easily won 60+.

Which would have been HUGE. Because, as we all know, they went 3-0 against the 56-26 Knicks at HOME in the ECSF's. And lost a close game seven, to a NY team that would lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. Oh, and the Bulls outscored the Knicks in their series, and the Knicks outscored the Rockets in their's.

A TRUE TITLE-CONTENDING TEAM.

[3ball]

That interview was done in 2003, soon after the zone rules were introduced, BUT BEFORE 2005, when defensive 3 seconds and hand-check ban were introduced..

After the hand-check ban and defensive 3 seconds was introduced in 2005 - McGrady, Kobe, Garnett, Ron Artest, Shaq and others have all said the game is "soft" and it isn't a "man's game" anymore - Kobe flat-out said that today's defenses are weak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3ezX73M1I)..

When the zone was first introduced in 2001, Jordan made similar comments about how the zone was bad... But just like the other guys mentioned previously, Jordan ALSO changed his tune after the new defensive 3 seconds rule and hand-check ban were introduced in 2005... He said he would score 100 (http://uproxx.com/dimemag/michael-jordan-if-i-played-today-i-could-have-scored-100-points/) under the new 2005 rules.

Those guys all thought the zone was bad for offensive players, until the zone was busted by defensive 3 seconds, and of course the hand-check ban - these are the facts.



Lebron's most damning stat is his abnormally-high time of possession - the top 50 players in time of possession are all point guards, [urlexcept Lebron and Harden.

Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd high time of possession player IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Also, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

[LAZERUSS]

Nope - I'm referring to the 1994 Bulls, who were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.

I say that they might have been a permanent second round team WITH Jordan.

It took the signing of HOFer Rodman to get them over the hump. MJ couldn't win without an OUTSTANDING PF (like Grant and Rodman.)

Clearly, their team chemistry was better with Pippen-Grant, than Pippen-MJ.

[juju151111]

His scoring and efficiency declined against the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. In '91, he finally had a normal efficiency, but again, his scoring declined ..albeit, slightly.

Same with Shaq against the Robinson led Spurs from '99 thru '02. And Kareem's fell off the cliff against Wilt and Thurmond in the early 70's.

That's why I find it laughable whenever some idiot brings up Wilt's ":decline" in the post-season (and really, only his scoring). Chamberlain faced the Russell-led Celtics EIGHT times; the Thurmond-led Warriors THREE times; the Reed-led Knicks FOUR times; and the Kareem led Bucks TWICE. Hell, he seldom had the luxury of first round cannon-fodder, or post-seasons with 3-4 playoff series.

Think about this...Russell basically beefed up his entire post-season numbers in FIVE series against the Lakers (he faced them six times BTW, and in the one in which he faced WILT, he did virtually nothing.)

And yet, Chamberlain never faced the Lakers at all in his entire post-season career. And he put up staggering numbers against them in his regular season H2H's (in seasons of between 8-12 games against them.) Safe-to-say, that had Wilt faced them FIVE times in his prime, and he likely would hold virtually every post-season scoring record.


In any case, we saw what MJ did with poor-to-average rosters. Nothing. Struggled to win a damn game. Meanwhile Wuilt was taking essentially last place rosters to within and eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history. And we all know what happened when he FINALLY had an equal roster (that was healthy.)

MJ took good-to-great supporting casts, in a weaker 90's, to six titles. Not knocking him, per se, but those that somehow believe he was a miracle worker didn't actually see him play, either. The man did not walk on water.
Huh he averged 30 pppg on 53%. What in the actual **** are you talking about? Are you saying because his ppg dropped by 2, but stayed at the same efficiency 53% he had a bad series.:roll:

Wilt scoring plummeted. It didn't go down 1-3 ppg bro. It was way more. Wilt Choked with HCA many times and idc about your list of excuses

[juju151111]

Nope - I'm referring to the 1994 Bulls, who were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc's walk-off miracle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=0m10s)).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.
They are a first round team imo. If the cavs were healthy they wouldn't of even made it that far.

[LAZERUSS]

Huh he averged 30 pppg on 53%. What in the actual **** are you talking about? Are you saying because his ppg dropped by 2, but stayed at the same efficiency 53% he had a bad series.:roll:

Wilt scoring plummeted. It didn't go down 1-3 ppg bro. It was way more. Wilt Choked with HCA many times and idc about your list of excuses

Jordan's numbers dropped CONSIDERABLY against the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And were a slight decline against a shell of what they had been in '91.

And had a prime Wilt feasted on losing teams in the first round, and average teams in the second round, like so many of the GOATs did after the 60's, his numbers would have been DRAMATICALLY higher (his scoring...after all, his rebounding was off-the-charts in the post-season, and his FG% efficiency was actually higher in his six Finals.)

[Da_Realist]

His scoring and efficiency declined against the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. In '91, he finally had a normal efficiency, but again, his scoring declined ..albeit, slightly.

You don't know what you are talking about. I know it's foolish to expect anyone on ISH to admit it, but you don't know what you are talking about.

You looked at some numbers and fed it into your overall agenda but whatever numbers you looked at lied to you. MJ DOMINATED the Pistons in 1991. He didn't average 40 against them because he didn't have to. Games 3 and 4 are two of the best games you'll never see rerun on NBA TV.

And where are you getting your numbers from anyway? You're not even watching basketball-reference.com

Here are MJ's numbers against the Pistons from 88-91

1988: 27.4, 8.8, 4.6, 2.0, 0.6 49%
1989: 29.4, 5.5, 6.5, 2.0, 0.5 46%
1990: 32.1, 7.1, 6.3, 2.1, 0.6 47%
1991: 29.8, 5.3, 7.0, 2.3, 1.8 54%

Where did his scoring decline? It consistently went UP from 88 - 90. And his efficiency is about what you'd expect against a great defense team when you have to score more. 27.4 on 49% is not better than 29.4 on 46% because it's harder to score a full 2 more points per game and maintain the same efficiency. I would argue 1990's 32.1 on 47% is better than any year outside 1991. That's a full 5 ppg higher than 1988's scoring avg and it was done in a longer series (7 vs 5).

[LAZERUSS]

Huh he averged 30 pppg on 53%. What in the actual **** are you talking about? Are you saying because his ppg dropped by 2, but stayed at the same efficiency 53% he had a bad series.:roll:

Wilt scoring plummeted. It didn't go down 1-3 ppg bro. It was way more. Wilt Choked with HCA many times and idc about your list of excuses

How about this...


Psileas actually pointed this fact out long ago, but it is certainly worth repeating...

had Wilt been fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own many playoff (or perhaps Finals) scoring records. And we are not talking about one or two "small samples" either, but rather, his entire H2H play against LA (and Minny) from '60 thru '68...and in seasons of between 7 to 12 H2H games.

Keep in mind that Russell WAS fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers FIVE times in the post-season in that span (actually six, but in the last one, he faced Wilt, and as expected, did absolutely nothing offensively), and it was against LA in which he elevated his playoff scoring and FG%. In fact, remove the Lakers from his post-seasons, and his offensive production would have dropped considerably.

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%


Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.

[feyki]

This all you can do when it comes to MJ stans.

Exactly :D .

[LAZERUSS]

You don't know what you are talking about. I know it's foolish to expect anyone on ISH to admit it, but you don't know what you are talking about.

You looked at some numbers and fed it into your overall agenda but whatever numbers you looked at lied to you. MJ DOMINATED the Pistons in 1991. He didn't average 40 against them because he didn't have to. Games 3 and 4 are two of the best games you'll never see rerun on NBA TV.

And where are you getting your numbers from anyway? You're not even watching basketball-reference.com

Here are MJ's numbers against the Pistons from 88-91

1988: 27.4, 8.8, 4.6, 2.0, 0.6 49%
1989: 29.4, 5.5, 6.5, 2.0, 0.5 46%
1990: 32.1, 7.1, 6.3, 2.1, 0.6 47%
1991: 29.8, 5.3, 7.0, 2.3, 1.8 54%

Where did his scoring decline? It consistently went UP from 88 - 90. And his efficiency is about what you'd expect against a great defense team when you have to score more. 27.4 on 49% is not better than 29.4 on 46% because it's harder to score a full 2 more points per game and maintain the same efficiency. I would argue 1990's 32.1 on 47% is better than any year outside 1991. That's a full 5 ppg higher than 1988's scoring avg and it was done in a longer series (7 vs 5).

Now post Jordan's regular season numbers against the NBA.

In fact, I will do it for you.

'88: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%.
'89: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%.
'90: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%.

'91: 31.5 ppg on a .535.

I agreed basically agreed with you in '91. BUT, that was a rapidly declining Piston team, and not the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90.

[Da_Realist]

Now post Jordan's regular season numbers against the NBA.

In fact, I will do it for you.

'88: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%.
'89: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%.
'90: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%.

'91: 31.5 ppg on a .535.

I agreed basically agreed with you in '91. BUT, that was a rapidly declining Piston team, and not the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90.

WHA? :biggums:

Is it that hard to admit you were talking out your ass? Or at least do what most do and disappear until another point can be argued? Now you're talking about his averages in the regular season against the rest of the NBA???

It's not hard. "I WAS TALKING OUT OF MY ASS AND I DIDN'T EVEN DO MYSELF THE COURTESY OF WATCHING BR.COM LIKE I USUALLY DO. Even when I was called out on it, I chose not to actually look up the numbers to back up what I said."

Not hard.

Btw, his numbers were GREAT against the best defensive team in the NBA (and world champions) in a seven game series where he has to adjust to their game plan every other day. :facepalm

[juju151111]

Jordan's numbers dropped CONSIDERABLY against the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And were a slight decline against a shell of what they had been in '91.

And had a prime Wilt feasted on losing teams in the first round, and average teams in the second round, like so many of the GOATs did after the 60's, his numbers would have been DRAMATICALLY higher (his scoring...after all, his rebounding was off-the-charts in the post-season, and his FG% efficiency was actually higher in his six Finals.)
They were not decline in 91. They made it to the ecf and wasn't no shell. They were in their 20s still. They were injured before the season end and came back. The bulls just got better. They couldn't bully Pippen soft ass anymore. Lol Wilt scoring plummeted and he choked away homecourt advantage. Mj dropped 50 points twice on bad boys and they had to make their rules to stop him. He averged 30 ppg against them in the Postseason

[Da_Realist]

I agreed basically agreed with you in '91. BUT, that was a rapidly declining Piston team, and not the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90.

Four questions...

1. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 83 Lakers against the Sixers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls? (http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-06/sports/sp-4964_1_pat-riley)

Item: Laker forward James Worthy, in the last week of the regular season in '83, broke his left shinbone and missed the playoffs.

Item: Laker guard Norm Nixon separated his left shoulder in the first game of the finals.

Item: Laker forward Bob McAdoo tore a hamstring in the sixth and deciding game of the Western Conference championship series against San Antonio and was severely handicapped by it in the finals.


2. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 87 Celtics against the Lakers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls? (http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/2011/06/09/the-guts-and-spirit-of-the-1987-celtics/)

The Celtics were entering this decisive point of the season beat up. Bill Walton, whose play backing up Robert Parish had been so vital to the ’86 title run, had been injured most of the year. Kevin McHale and Robert Parish were both battling serious foot injuries, and it would be almost painful to watch them suit up each game as the postseason progressed and wondering how they could move and pivot without excruciating pain. Danny Ainge was also fighting nagging injuries. The bench was weak, so there was little help for the injured and Larry Bird and Dennis Johnson, the two healthy starters had more of a burden placed on them.

3. Who was more at a disadvantage, 89 Lakers against the Pistons or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls? (http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/devastating_playoff_injuries/magic_johnson.html?state=stop)

They swept Portland, Seattle and then the upstart Suns in the conference finals, going an unprecedented 11-0 to reach their third straight NBA Finals.

Disaster, however, struck before they even played their first game in the Palace of Auburn Hills in a Finals rematch against the Detroit Pistons. Byron Scott severely pulled his hamstring during practice before Game 1 and would be out of the Finals. The short-handed Lakers lost their first playoff game in the series opener, but seemed to have regained their footing in Game 2, taking a double-digit lead late in the third quarter.

This was when the curtains fell on the Lakers dynasty and their Three-peat dreams. Magic Johnson, the reigning league MVP, also pulled his hamstring in the closing minutes of the period and had to leave the game.

4. What makes the 91 Pistons a less worthy opponent than these other guys?

[LAZERUSS]

WHA? :biggums:

Is it that hard to admit you were talking out your ass? Or at least do what most do and disappear until another point can be argued? Now you're talking about his averages in the regular season against the rest of the NBA???

It's not hard. "I WAS TALKING OUT OF MY ASS AND I DIDN'T EVEN DO MYSELF THE COURTESY OF WATCHING BR.COM LIKE I USUALLY DO. Even when I was called out on it, I chose not to actually look up the numbers to back up what I said."

Not hard.

Btw, his numbers were GREAT against the best defensive team in the NBA (and world champions) in a seven game series where he has to adjust to their game plan every other day. :facepalm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Let's recap shall we?

'88 Regular season: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%
'Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%

HUGE DECLINE.

'89 Regular season: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%
'89 Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 29,7 ppg on a .460 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'90 Regular season: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%
'90 Post-season against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'91 Regular season: 31.5 ppg on a .535 FG%
'91 post-season against the crumbling Bad Boys: 29.8 ppg on a .535 FG%

A SLIGHT DECLINE.

A DECLINE in EVERY SEASON against the Bad Boys.

Now, if you are claiming that the Bad Boys were a great team, with a great defense, true. BUT, welcome to Wilt's world.

Chamberlain faced the equivalent of the '89 Bad Boys...EIGHT TIMES in his post-season career. Not only that, but Nate Thurmond held KAJ to 22,8 ppg on a .405 FG%, and then 22.8 ppg on a .428 FG% in two straight post-seasons. Wilt faced Thurmond THREE times in his post-season career. And the Reed-led Knicks FOUR TIMES. And the peak Kareem-led Bucks TWICE. And the vast majority of those H2H's came in either Wilt's first round, or second round.

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Four questions...

1. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 83 Lakers against the Sixers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls? (http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-06/sports/sp-4964_1_pat-riley)

Item: Laker forward James Worthy, in the last week of the regular season in '83, broke his left shinbone and missed the playoffs.

Item: Laker guard Norm Nixon separated his left shoulder in the first game of the finals.

Item: Laker forward Bob McAdoo tore a hamstring in the sixth and deciding game of the Western Conference championship series against San Antonio and was severely handicapped by it in the finals.


2. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 87 Celtics against the Lakers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls? (http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/2011/06/09/the-guts-and-spirit-of-the-1987-celtics/)

[I]The Celtics were entering this decisive point of the season beat up. Bill Walton, whose play backing up Robert Parish had been so vital to the

[Da_Realist]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Let's recap shall we?

'88 Regular season: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%
'Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%

HUGE DECLINE.

'89 Regular season: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%
'89 Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 29,7 ppg on a .460 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'90 Regular season: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%
'90 Post-season against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'91 Regular season: 31.5 ppg on a .535 FG%
'91 post-season against the crumbling Bad Boys: 29.8 ppg on a .535 FG%

A SLIGHT DECLINE.

A DECLINE in EVERY SEASON against the Bad Boys.

Now, if you are claiming that the Bad Boys were a great team, with a great defense, true. BUT, welcome to Wilt's world.

I wish we had a "shifting goalposts" icon. You just argue just to argue.

[LAZERUSS]

I wish we had a "shifting goalposts" icon. You just argue just to argue.

My original post, which you laughably took exception to:


Jordan's numbers dropped CONSIDERABLY against the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And were a slight decline against a shell of what they had been in '91.

And my point:


Let's recap shall we?

'88 Regular season: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%
'Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%

HUGE DECLINE.

'89 Regular season: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%
'89 Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 29,7 ppg on a .460 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'90 Regular season: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%
'90 Post-season against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'91 Regular season: 31.5 ppg on a .535 FG%
'91 post-season against the crumbling Bad Boys: 29.8 ppg on a .535 FG%

A SLIGHT DECLINE.

A DECLINE in EVERY SEASON against the Bad Boys.

100% CORRECT ASSERTION.

Next...

[LAZERUSS]

They were not decline in 91. They made it to the ecf and wasn't no shell. They were in their 20s still. They were injured before the season end and came back. The bulls just got better. They couldn't bully Pippen soft ass anymore. Lol Wilt scoring plummeted and he choked away homecourt advantage. Mj dropped 50 points twice on bad boys and they had to make their rules to stop him. He averged 30 ppg against them in the Postseason

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The NBA ROUTINELY created RULES to prevent Chamberlain's dominance. There is NO comparison to the "rules" that were created to HELP MJ, while the many that were designed to STOP Chamberlain.

And Wilt dropped 50 points THREE TIMES in MUST WIN PLAYOFF games. As well as several games of 40+ against Russell (with must win games of 46 and 50 BTW.) Give me a list of MJ's "must win" 50+ point games.

[Da_Realist]

My original post, which you laughably took exception to:



And my point:



100% CORRECT ASSERTION.

Next...

Nah... I actually gave you more credit than you deserved. I assumed you couldn't possibly be comparing MJ's numbers in a highly intense rivalry seven game playoff series against the best defensive team in the league with his numbers against the field in a long regular season where no one truly cared until at least April. Not even you.

But I was wrong.

[BIZARRO]

still waiting.. :pimp:


And I'm still waiting on this question that I posted to Laz which he quietly avoided answering:

Question was:

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?



Btw, 3ball you are killing it with some great points in this thread, good stuff :applause:

Seriously, in Jordan's WHOLE time in Chicago, Rodman was the ONLY very good free agent pickup in 14 years.......That is crazy to think about, and just shows how much MJ was swimming uphill with Krause as GM.............It was done upstream......and back then, that was the total vibe you got from their crap front office......As a fan I remember thinking that they were almost so inept they were conspiring against Jordan to make it as hard as they could for him to win a title.....But his greatness did it, even upstream...

[LAZERUSS]

And I'm still waiting on this question that I posted to Laz which he quietly avoided answering:

Question was:

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?



Btw, 3ball you are killing it with some great points in this thread, good stuff :applause:

Seriously, in Jordan's WHOLE time in Chicago, Rodman was the ONLY very good free agent pickup in 14 years.......That is crazy to think about, and just shows how much MJ was swimming uphill with Krause as GM.............It was done upstream......and back then, that was the total vibe you got from their crap front office......As a fan I remember thinking that they were almost so inept they were conspiring against Jordan to make it as hard as they could for him to win a title.....But his greatness did it, even upstream...

I could argue Magic, who was one pass away from winning a ring in '84, and an injury in '89 from possibly winning another. The fact that his Lakers didn't lose a beat after KAJ retired (and won a ring DESPITE Kareem's horrific Finals); and dragged a declining and injury-plagued team to a Finals in his last season was also a testament.

There are those who would claim Russell, albeit, not me.

And there is no question in my mind that a prime Chamberlain was the most dominant regular season AND post-season player of all-time. And even John Wooden commented that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters (and coaches), and it likely would have been Chamberlain holding all those rings. And where a Wilt with anywhere from 7-11 rings in his career rank?

The problem with Jordan's "success" is that it came in the watered down 90's, and with the best supporting cast in the league. Where are his signature wins against great teams?

Having said though, he was easily the game's greatest post-season scorer, and aside from '95, his teams won when they should have. And, of course, he was the driving force behind those titles.

Again, I have MJ as a Top-5 GOAT, and I have no problem with those that have him as the GOAT.


But, of course, this topic is not about how great MJ played in the post-season, but rather about just how much help he had.

When he had poor-to-average rosters, he couldn't win. When he had rosters that could win 55+ games and were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.

[Asukal]

30->22->18 guy is not in any contention for being the best playoffs performer of all time. Maybe best in choking but leflop will pass him soon. :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

30->22->18 guy is not in any contention for being the best playoffs performer of all time. Maybe best in choking but leflop will pass him soon. :oldlol:

A prime Wilt with a 30-27-5-8 and shooting a full 10% above the post-season league average is undeniably the PEAK GOAT playoff performer...especially when 60% of his playoff games came against the greatest defensive force in NBA history.

[3ball]

.
Jordan's shot better than Curry from inside 20 feet:



.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- links to data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 52.9%, 34 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 52.0%, 25 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 40.8%, 49 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016: 45.3%, 86 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 34.3%, 137 fga


DATA UPDATED AS OF 1/6/16
.

[Smoke117]

I'm still waiting on this one..

I guess I'll never get an answer... which IS the answer.. :rockon:

MJ carried the largest load of all time.

Why should anyone bother? Jordan never played GOAT level defense in any of the bulls championship runs. You are asking people to provide something that your own guy never even did.

[3ball]

Why should anyone bother? Jordan never played GOAT level defense in any of the bulls championship runs. You are asking people to provide something that your own guy never even did.
He did on all his championship runs and this is common knowledge.

Everyone knows MJ is a top 3 perimeter defender of all time.

You're just trying to revise history 25 years after the fact.

[Smoke117]

He did on all his championship runs and this is common knowledge.

Everyone knows MJ is a top 3 perimeter defender of all time.

You're just trying to revise history 25 years after the fact.

When does being a top 3 perimeter defender all time become GOAT level defense?

[juju151111]

When does being a top 3 perimeter defender all time become GOAT level defense?
Well just use the top 3 level defense then.

[Smoke117]

Alright let's put this theory of yours to the test, shall we 3ball? Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen in the playoffs during all six champion runs:

91 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101drating, 3.0 DBPM 1.5 DWS
Pippen - 100drating, 3.7 DBPM 1.7 DWS

92 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 104 drating 1.4 DBPM 1.7 DWS
Pippen - 102 drating 3.9 DBPM 1.8 DWS

Anyone else starting to notice a trend?...

93 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 105 drating 1.9 DBPM 1.1 DWS
Pippen - 105 drating 2.9 DBPM 1.1 DWS

96 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101 Drating 0.0 DBPM 1.3 DWS
Pippen - 96 drating 4.2 DBPM 1.7 DWS

97 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101 drating 1.9 DBPM 1.5 DWS
Pippen - 101 drating 2.2 DBPM 1.4 DWS

98 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 103 drating -0.9 DBPM 1.2 DWS
Pippen - 99 drating 3.1 DBPM 1.5 DWS

I don't think your theory is holding up very well?

[Wade's Rings]

I could argue Magic, who was one pass away from winning a ring in '84, and an injury in '89 from possibly winning another.

If Thomas doesn't get hurt or the BS foul isn't called Laimbeer the Pistons win the '88 Finals. If the Celtics weren't hurt they potentially win the '87 Finals. It works both ways.


The problem with Jordan's "success" is that it came in the watered down 90's, and with the best supporting cast in the league. Where are his signature wins against great teams?

If the 90s are watered down, what are the 60s? Jordan beat plenty of great teams.


When he had poor-to-average rosters, he couldn't win. When he had rosters that could win 55+ games and were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.

:oldlol:

[3ball]

The fact that his Lakers didn't lose a beat after KAJ retired


How many championships did the Lakers win WITHOUT Kareem?

Zero.. How many WITH Kareem - 5

So they were a 5-time champion WITH Kareem, and nothing without.. Those are the historical facts (in b4 you try to change them).





and dragged a declining and injury-plagued team to a Finals in his last season was also a testament.


The 1991 Lakers had better supporting talent than the Bulls:


................Playoff PPG

.... 91' Bulls.................. 91' Lakers

Jordan....... 31.1........ Magic..... 21.8

Pippen....... 21.6........ Worthy... 21.1
Grant........ 13.3........ Perkins... 17.7
Cartwright... 9.5........ Divac...... 13.3
Paxson........ 8.2........ Scott...... 13.2
Armstrong... 5.5........ Green...... 6.5



Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:


JORDAN: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg
MAGIC:.. 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg





Where are his signature wins against great teams?


Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP (Magic) heads-up in the Finals?.. This is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

Accordingly, 1991 was a signature win for Jordan - he had a weaker supporting cast, and destroyed a top 5 player heads-up - the stats between MJ and Magic weren't REMOTELY close.

The Bulls also beat the 1992 Blazers, who were more stacked and made the Finals in 1990 as well... The 1992 Blazers were the most athletic and most stacked team in the league - this is common knowledge.

The Bulls also beat the 1993 Suns, who were the most stacked team in recent MEMORY at that time.... Ditto the 1996 Sonics, who had a legit big 3 of perennial all-stars (Payton/Kemp/Schrempf... along with McMillan & Hersey Hawkins, who destroy Paxson, Armstrong)

Then they beat the championship-caliber Knicks, who SNAP-made the Finals each time MJ retired.

Then there's the Utah Jazz.. In 1998 playoffs, they swept Shaq's 4-all-star Lakers, beat Hakeem's Rockets, and destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs... This is the most talent any team has ever defeated to make the Finals.. Yet the Bulls beat them TWICE in 1997 and 1998 (in very close series).

These are all signature wins, in part because the opposing team had a better supporting talent after their #1 option... The reality is that the mere PRESENCE of Jordan makes people think the Bulls were stacked.





When he had rosters were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.


The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.
.

[jayfan]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

1. You're combining teams. These guys didn't all play together.

2. Horace Grant was good on a good day. Average overall.

3. BJ Armstrong was good on a good day. Average overall.

4. Charles Oakley was good on a good day. Thug overall.

5. Rodman was past his prime by the time he joined Chicago.



.

[LAZERUSS]

How many championships did the Lakers win WITHOUT Kareem?

Zero.. How many WITH Kareem - 5

So they were a 5-time champion WITH Kareem, and nothing without.. Those are the historical facts (in b4 you try to change them).



The 1991 Lakers had better supporting talent than the Bulls:


................Playoff PPG

.... 91' Bulls.................. 91' Lakers

Jordan....... 31.1........ Magic..... 21.8

Pippen....... 21.6........ Worthy... 21.1
Grant........ 13.3........ Perkins... 17.7
Cartwright... 9.5........ Divac...... 13.3
Paxson........ 8.2........ Scott...... 13.2
Armstrong... 5.5........ Green...... 6.5



Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:


JORDAN: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg
MAGIC:.. 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg



Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP (Magic) heads-up in the Finals?.. This is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

Accordingly, 1991 was a signature win for Jordan - he had a weaker supporting cast, and destroyed a top 5 player heads-up - the stats between MJ and Magic weren't REMOTELY close.

The Bulls also beat the 1992 Blazers, who were far more stacked and made the Finals in 1990 as well... The 1992 Blazers were the most athletic and most stacked team in the league - this is common knowledge.

The Bulls also beat the 1993 Suns, who were way more stacked and the most stacked team in recent MEMORY at that time.... Ditto the 1996 Sonics, who had a legit big 3 of perennial all-stars (Payton/Kemp/Schrempf... along with McMillan & Hersey Hawkins, who destroy Paxson, Armstrong)

Then they beat the championship-caliber Knicks, who SNAP-made the Finals each time MJ retired.

Then there's the Utah Jazz.. In 1998, they swept Shaq's 4-all-star Lakers, beat Hakeem's Rockets, and destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs... This is the most talent any team has ever defeated to make the Finals.. Yet the Bulls beat them TWICE in 1997 and 1998 (in very close series).

All of these are signature wins, in part because the opposing team had a better supporting talent after their #1 option... The reality is that the mere PRESENCE of Jordan makes people think the Bulls were stacked.



The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.

A PRIME MAGIC DESTROYED MJ in their '87 H2H's. Just CRUSHED him. And that was an MJ in his peak scoring season. Just ANNIHILATED the worthless shot-jacking MJ.

As for Kareem.

MAGIC led them to a title in his ROOKIE SEASON, and with KAJ watching the title-clinching game at home from his couch.

MAGIC led them to their '82 title, and with McAdoo contributing as much in the Finals as KAJ did, but in far less minutes.

MAGIC was b y FAR the Lakers BEST PLAYER in their '87 title run, and in fact, KAJ was a third wheel.

MAGIC led them to a title in '88, and with KAJ and absolute WORTHLESS POS in the post-season, even worse in the Finals, and a complete joke in game seven. BTW, MAGIC deserved the FMVP, not Worthy. #4 for Magic.

And you comparing a broken down Lker team in '91, with Worthy crippled and a shell of what he had been (and basically done...his last semi-decent season_), and without Kareem mind you...and with a declining Magic...against a peak Jordan, with FAR greater surrounding personnel in Piipen and Grant (BOTH of whom WIPED the floor with the Lakers in the Finals)...with a PRIME Magic who DOMINATED in the ENTIRE DECADE of the 80's, and was a mere pass away from #6, an injury away from #7, a Worthy injury away from #8 in '83, and a rusty Magic injury away from '81 from #9.

NINE Finals in 12 seasons, and an eyelash away from NINE rings. Never came close to a losing season in his 12 seasons, and had a higher winning percentage without Kareem, than with him. BTW, Kareem's winning percentage without magic was WAY below Magic's CAREER W-L %. Led Kareem-LESS teams to records of 62-17 and 57-22. Took a Kareem-LESS player past the heavily-favored Blazers in '91, and to his NINTH Finals.

But thanks for playing.

[3ball]

Alright let's put this theory of yours to the test, shall we 3ball? Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen DPBM and DWS in the playoffs during all six champion runs:



My theory is that MJ played goat defense, which your stats don't refute.. But let me demonstrate how dumb you are for using DPBM and DWS:


Bird... Career DPBM: 2.5
Pippen Career DPBM: 2.4

Bird... Career DRtg: 101
Pippen Career DRtg: 102


I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but Bird had higher DWS too.. So WHY does Bird have higher defensive stats than Pippen???... Because these stats are based on individual defensive rating (DRtg), which is based on TEAM performance.. This is from basketball-reference:



"Out of necessity (due to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute."


I've had to post the above definition many times to educate posters about DRtg, and subsequently DPBM and DWS... Now you know.. These stats results in hundreds if not thousands of similarly erroneous conclusions like Bird > Pippen defensively.
.

[feyki]

First 3Peat ;

Pippen - Second greatest defender of small forwards in nba history . Great playmaker nearly as Jordan . Solid points producer . Great rebounder for his position .

Grant - He could main rebounder in every team. Solid rim protector , good on ball defender and versatile defender . Solid playmaker for his position . And averaged scorer .

B.J - Just good scorer and good guard .

Paxson - Solid sharpshooter , who is saved 93 finals ..


Second 3Peat ;

Pippen - Better defender and better playmaker than Jordan in 96 and 98 .

Harper - Solid perimeter defender . Solid playmaker . And great physicality .

Kukoc - Like Gasol,Gino ; he had technicality of Europe . All around player , great offensive producer . Solid playmaker . Good perimeter defender .

Rodman - Greatest rebounder in history . Versatile defender . Great man to defender .

Kerr - Good sharpshooter .

[3ball]

My theory is that MJ played goat defense, which your stats don't refute.. But let me demonstrate how dumb you are for using DPBM and DWS:


Bird... Career DPBM: 2.5
Pippen Career DPBM: 2.4

Bird... Career DRtg: 101
Pippen Career DRtg: 102


I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but Bird had better DWS too.. So WHY does Bird have higher defensive stats than Pippen???... Because these stats are based on individual defensive rating (DRtg), which is based on TEAM performance.. This is from basketball-reference:



"Out of necessity (due to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute."


I've had to post the above definition many times to educate posters about DRtg, and subsequently DPBM and DWS... Now you know.. These stats results in hundreds if not thousands of similarly erroneous conclusions like Bird > Pippen defensively.


What's up Smoke?

Cat got your tongue?


:yaohappy:
.

[ShawkFactory]

Bulls were a "miracle shot" away from being swept? News to me.

If that shot (which if missed would actually have sent to game to OT; and if won by the Knicks would actually have just put them up 3-0) is what kept the Bulls from being swept, then that BS call on Scottie in game 5 is what kept the Bulls from beating the eventual East champions.

[feyki]

Bulls were a "miracle shot" away from being swept? News to me.

If that shot (which if missed would actually have sent to game to OT; and if won by the Knicks would actually have just put them up 3-0) is what kept the Bulls from being swept, then that BS call on Scottie in game 5 is what kept the Bulls from beating the eventual East champions.

1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum .

[ShawkFactory]

1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum .
Same thing in 98. If Jordan doesn't hit that miracle shot then the Jazz, with the momentum, win game 7 at home.

[game3524]

1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum .

Doubt it.

[Da_Realist]

1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum .

How many people scored points in that 4th quarter before Paxson made his shot?

[Wade's Rings]

How many people scored points in that 4th quarter before Paxson made his shot?

:applause:

[feyki]

Same thing in 98. If Jordan doesn't hit that miracle shot then the Jazz, with the momentum, win game 7 at home.

Yes , with clear offensive foul .


How many people scored points in that 4th quarter before Paxson made his shot?

I guess Suns made 19 points , Bulls made 7 points in 4thquarter .

[Euroleague]

This pretty much sums up all of 3ball's posts in this thread:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/KgUws2cKpPePS/200.gif

https://media3.giphy.com/media/g3urShdMPdvwY/200.gif

https://media4.giphy.com/media/njiFH82QA9vHy/200.gif

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ylyUQngtu3CjajjGy4/200.gif

https://media3.giphy.com/media/ceeN6U57leAhi/200.gif

https://media2.giphy.com/media/11SJ52YouBaDFS/200.gif

https://media1.giphy.com/media/nisgN3oZmsuty/200.gif

https://media4.giphy.com/media/m8eIbBdkJK7Go/200.gif

https://media1.giphy.com/media/b5XRfyjS2xva0/200.gif

[Wade's Rings]

Yes , with clear offensive foul .



I guess Suns made 19 points , Bulls made 7 points in 4thquarter .

Jordan had scored all 9 4th quarter points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3.

[feyki]

Jordan had scored all 9 4th quarter points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3.

So ? Where was Jordan's great playming ? Or Defence ( Steal the ball and run for fastbreak ) ?

Bulls and Jordan got annihilated in 4 quarter and Paxson save their ass .

[Wade's Rings]

So ? Where was Jordan's great playming ? Or Defence ( Steal the ball and run for fastbreak ) ?

Bulls and Jordan got annihilated in 4 quarter and Paxson save their ass .

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

His teammates didn't score. You can give someone a great shot but they miss it happens. Jordan sensed the moment and realized he had to score and he did it.

You act like it's easy for players to get multiple steals and blocks in 1 quarter, just because he didn't get 1 it doesn't mean he played bad defense.

Jordan scored all of the Bulls' points and kept the Bulls in the Game before Paxson's 3 but yeah Paxson saved his ass

You're a f*cking moron.

[dubeta]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

His teammates didn't score. You can give someone a great shot but they miss it happens. Jordan sensed the moment and realized he had to score and he did it.

You act like it's easy for players to get multiple steals and blocks in 1 quarter, just because he didn't get 1 it doesn't mean he played bad defense.

Jordan scored all of the Bulls' points and kept the Bulls in the Game before Paxson's 3 but yeah Paxson saved his ass

You're a f*cking moron.



feyki's making some valid points

But you're too biased to notice :sleeping

[feyki]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

His teammates didn't score. You can give someone a great shot but they miss it happens. Jordan sensed the moment and realized he had to score and he did it.

You act like it's easy for players to get multiple steals and blocks in 1 quarter, just because he didn't get 1 it doesn't mean he played bad defense.

Jordan scored all of the Bulls' points and kept the Bulls in the Game before Paxson's 3 but yeah Paxson saved his ass

You're a f*cking moron.


Dirk didn't airball or misses most of his clutch shots when his team struggled you f.kking f.g flopper fanboy .

Jordan sucked in 4 quarter and like you , mindless fanboys can't take it .

[Wade's Rings]

Dirk didn't airball or misses most of his clutch shots when his team struggled you f.kking f.g flopper fanboy .

Jordan sucked in 4 quarter and like you , mindless fanboys can't take it .

Wtf are you talking about. I haven't mentioned Dirk or anything abouyt him.

You can't prove me wrong so you just post mindless garbage :oldlol:

[feyki]

Wtf are you talking about. I haven't mentioned Dirk or anything abouyt him.

You can't prove me wrong so you just post mindless garbage :oldlol:

Jordan just had bad 4 quarter and he and his team saved by Paxson . Why are you ignore that ?

There is no shame . Basketball is team sport .

[Wade's Rings]

Jordan just had bad 4 quarter and he and his team saved by Paxson . Why are you ignore that ?

There is no shame . Basketball is team sport .

Jordan had all 9 points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3, why are you ignoring that?

[feyki]

Jordan had all 9 points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3, why are you ignoring that?

With 0 assists , and probably %30 fg(%35-40 maximum) .

That is really bad .

[Wade's Rings]

With 0 assists , and probably %30 fg(%35-40 maximum) .

That is really bad .

Now you're just making stuff up :oldlol:

[3ball]

.
...........Jordan's jumpshot was better than Curry's from inside 20 feet:



.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- links to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 53.1%, 32 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 52.2%, 23 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 41.7%, 48 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016: 45.1%, 82 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 31.9%, 119 fga

Anyone who disagrees that MJ is a better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet must explain why Curry shoots far worse percentage inside 20 feet..






Jordan had scored all 9 fourth quarter points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3.



...............Percentage of points scored while player is on floor


.
........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5
LEBRON 2016.... 33.4..... 40.9

CURRY 2015..... 29.9..... 36.2...... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
CURRY 2016..... 35.1..... 40.7


CONCLUSIONS:

1) As you can see, Jordan scored the highest percentage of his team's points while he was on the floor BY FAR, including 45-50% of his team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals.

2) Lebron and Curry's proportion of their team's points often DECLINED in the 4th quarter, while Jordan's always increased, and significantly.

[3ball]

.
MJ made a ton of jumpshots that Curry can't make:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/McLuKl.gif

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http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-28-2015/ew2ZUl.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif


MJ is the only player in history that routinely took hangtime jumpshots as a regular part of his game - he has hundreds of these, in addition to all the highly-contested fadeaways and pullups.

A huge proportion of MJ's league-leading scoring consisted of jumpers and it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11992303&postcount=201) that he shot MUCH better on jumpshots inside 20 feet than Curry - MJ had a huge spot-up, jj redick game from midrange and he probably made more jumpshots each season than anyone else in the NBA, at elite efficiency too..

This means he's simply one of the greatest jumpshooters of all time - he's by far the best jumshooter out of anyone that could double pump from the ft line.

[3ball]

Horace Grant - He could main rebounder in every team. Solid rim protector , good on ball defender and versatile defender .


Grant averaged 11/8 during his years alongside Jordan and for his career.

He was a role player - virtually every team in the history of the game has one or more players like this.





B.J Armstrong - Just good scorer and good guard .

Harper - Solid perimeter defender . Solid playmaker . And great physicality .

Paxson - Solid sharpshooter , who is saved 93 finals ..

Kerr - Good sharpshooter


What a ****ing joke - Armstrong (12 ppg), Harper (8 ppg), Kerr (7 ppg), Paxson (6 ppg) were all average role players - EVERY team has players like this - they didn't make the Bulls "stacked".

You would never give props to Chalmers or JJ Redick this way - but you HAVE to give extra props to Jordan's role players, because Jordan's team is so top heavy.

You're forced to act like Kerr, Paxson, Armstrong, Grant, and Harper are unique, when they're standard on every ****ing team in history.





Rodman - Greatest rebounder in history . Versatile defender . Great man to defender


Rodman was 34 years old when he joined the Bulls and was no longer a versatile defender or all-star caliber player - he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992.

More importantly, show me where a team won the championship with their PF averaging 4/8 on 37% in the playoffs, like Rodman did in 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.

Do you realize he wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs and Finals??.. Phil benched him for poor play - in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs, Rodman had literally a COUPLE good defensive efforts, and that was it - he was garbage the rest of the time.

The reality is that Rodman's last good year was 1996.. By 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed up, garbage player he was for the Lakers in 1999, but no one noticed because "Da Bulls" were 3-peating.
.

[feyki]

I love you too 3ball .

[3ball]

.
Who assisted on highest proportion of Bulls FG's in playoffs during 6-peat?


Jordan did, as the stats show here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).. This shouldn't be a surprise, since he led the Bulls in APG for most playoff runs.

The remarkable thing is that he led the Bulls in passing while carrying the biggest scoring load ever, BY FAR - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, EXCEPT Jordan, who did so by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg.

This is why it's funny when a new fan says that Jordan's teams were IDEALLY built around him - obviously, it isn't IDEAL for anyone to carry such a goat scoring load, while also leading the team in passing, while also being the best defender ever at their position.. Obviously, that isn't IDEAL.. :rolleyes:

[Jasper]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?
3 HOF'er on one team fueled by Jordan getting 6 titles.
Can't replace Jordan for those 2 other hof'ers to be in a the Hall. /

[Jasper]

.
MJ made a ton of jumpshots that Curry can't make:






Please do not put Curry next to MJ EVER.
Curry can't even be in the same breath as Jordan (.)

[Sammyzuko]

I realize that Kerr is a very famous name. Former analyst, just won an NBA championship as a coach. But can you imagine going back in time to the 90s and saying that the Bulls are stacked because they have Steve Kerr. He's one name in particular, that young teenagers who hate Jordan think he was a hall of fame, All Star player.

Then you have players like Horace Grant. Who would know anything about Horace Grant if he wasn't a name associated with those Bulls team. BJ Armstrong. Are you kidding me?

The Bulls were top heavy, but they did have many role players that knew their role.
Exactly! Historical revisionism runs rampant on these forums.

[Paul George 24]

1-9


thats all that needs to be said
3-13 :roll:

[egokiller]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

It was a completely different team without MJ. The 6 best players after Pippen were not on the team the next year.

:roll:

MJ didn't have advantages like Bron did, which was to join a team with an all-star in his prime (Big Z). Also Wade is a better player than Pippen ever was. The fact that Lebron could not do what MJ did and go 6/6 with 6 FVMP and never allow a game 7 despite having better help than MJ just speaks volumes about his inferiority relative to MJ. Now go show me a finals game where MJ gets destroyed by a guy like Terry, the way Terry destroyed Lebron.

Big Z, Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love.... how much help does this guy need to only be 3/7?

[AirBonner]

So what I gather from this thread is that Jordan had some of the most stacked teams of all time during his championship runs and his competition was some of the weakest of any era.

[AirFederer]

So what I gather from this thread is that Jordan had some of the most stacked teams of all time during his championship runs and his competition was some of the weakest of any era.

Bunch of retards in this therad #fvckyouMillennials

Hail to the GOAT
https://media.giphy.com/media/d3MLV9CB1iYb0IBG/giphy.gif

[SpaceJam2]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

Wow...MJ's legacy exposed

[Manny98]

I expect at least 8 rings with all that help :eek:

[SpaceJam2]

I expect at least 8 rings with all that help :eek:

Only got to 6, like 13 other NBA players. Nothing too great

[ArbitraryWater]

Modern era.

Nobody cares about that stuff - that was a different league, incomparable.

1960's: Racism. Black guys playing against a bunch of janitors.
1970's: The beginning of the the real NBA. A lot of random nonsense. A few transcendent players.
1980's: The first decade of real NBA basketball. The first construct of true teams, franchises and global impact.
1990's - current: Learned from the 80's and rode the aesthetically pleasing game of Jordan and created the modern era. Everything translates.

70's is more hippies and drugs and randomness with the ABA...

[LostCause]

[QUOTE=Naero]The 1-9 Pippen-less record only proves that Michael Jordan needed more help to win, but what about the extent of help needed? A substantially impactful difference-maker or a modicum of additive help to get over the hump?

Scottie Pippen was only a bench-player in his first season and thus was mostly impactless in the grander scheme of the games; in fact, in 35 of the Bulls' wins in his rookie season (1987-88), Pippen played less than 25 minutes, while he played in 25-plus minutes in 11 of their losses. He obviously was a positive-impact player overall; but for such a supposedly legendary sidekick, it looks like they didn't need him to be fully serviceable to win enough games to shape the Bulls' playoff-seeding fortunes for the better.

Moreover, in the playoffs, he was mostly a non-factor in 3 of the 4 wins; he notched less than 10 points in 3 of those 4 wins. Better playoffs-seeding

[HylianNightmare]

George gervin too. Still not as much help as L39RON

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bunch of retards in this therad #fvckyouMillennials

Hail to the GOAT
https://media.giphy.com/media/d3MLV9CB1iYb0IBG/giphy.gif
The 90s - where palming a ball is considered black magic :oldlol:

[scuzzy]

The 90s - where palming a ball is considered black magic :oldlol:
:lol :lol

[SpaceJam2]

The 90s - where palming a ball is considered black magic :oldlol:

:lol

[Shooter]

1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?

Wow

[Shooter]

https://media.giphy.com/media/d3MLV9CB1iYb0IBG/giphy.gif
Yikes

[Soundwave]

This board is the same shit over and over again for 15+ years, lol, been checking in to see if there's some serious playoff discussion but it's the same "maybe Kobe/LeBron can become MJ" crap and 90% of the discussion is some variation of that, once LeBron is done and that time is coming this board is going to just fall apart.

[97 bulls]

This board is the same shit over and over again for 15+ years, lol, been checking in to see if there's some serious playoff discussion but it's the same "maybe Kobe/LeBron can become MJ" crap and 90% of the discussion is some variation of that, once LeBron is done and that time is coming this board is going to just fall apart.

Very true. I think its gotten worse. Just a bunch of trolls. And people dont even want to discuss teams, only players. Fans of players go out of their way to tear down their favorite players teammates which is insane. I honestly think these games today would rather their favorite player lose and have a great statistical series than win.

[FKAri]

Very true. I think its gotten worse. Just a bunch of trolls. And people dont even want to discuss teams, only players. Fans of players go out of their way to tear down their favorite players teammates which is insane. I honestly think these games today would rather their favorite player lose and have a great statistical series than win.

Living vicariously through celebrities really does seem like something which has trended up in the last few decades. Online social networks probably push people in that direction.

[Axe]

This board is the same shit over and over again for 15+ years, lol, been checking in to see if there's some serious playoff discussion but it's the same "maybe Kobe/LeBron can become MJ" crap and 90% of the discussion is some variation of that, once LeBron is done and that time is coming this board is going to just fall apart.
When kong lost in the first round of the playoffs recently, you'd notice that some users have surfaced after awakening from their deep slumber lol.

[3ball]

When kong lost in the first round of the playoffs recently, you'd notice that some users have surfaced after awakening from their deep slumber lol.


The first round thing is a poor topic because low seeds lose in the first round and high seeds win.

In lebron's case, he always got several years to develop his team into a favored, high seed before entering the 06' playoffs, while Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with a low seed.

So "1-9" compares 3rd year high seeds to 1st year eight seeds... But as soon as Lebron got his first low seed, he was demolished like everyone else, despite a HOF teammate winning 2 games.

[Axe]

The first round thing is a poor topic because low seeds lose in the first round and high seeds win.

In lebron's case, he always got several years to develop his team into a favored, high seed before entering the 06' playoffs, while Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with a low seed.

So "1-9" compares 3rd year high seeds to 1st year eight seeds... But as soon as Lebron got his first low seed, he was demolished like everyone else, despite a HOF teammate winning 2 games.
Stfu!

Scottie pippen was the best player of the soft 90s, biatch.