The 76ers officially trade 2 second round-picks for ISH Smith

[brownmamba00]

Philly has officially acquired Ish Smith from the Pelicans in exchange for two second-round picks. Scored 14 pts in his debut.

Tony Wroten got waived :facepalm

[GIF REACTION]

Sup fatboy

[Collie]

Goddamn I was looking at his ESPN page, and he's played for 10 teams since 10-11! And the 76ers twice!

If you don't actually look at the years, you'd think he was a hardened veteran in this league.:oldlol:

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4305/ish-smith

[el gringos]

Goddamn I was looking at his ESPN page, and he's played for 10 teams since 10-11! And the 76ers twice!

If you don't actually look at the years, you'd think he was a hardened veteran in this league.:oldlol:

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4305/ish-smithand had had the 4th best NBA career off just that one years wake forest team. I told everybody and their brother that that team would win it all and they totally flopped for what I thought their talent was.

James Johnson
Fariq-Aminu
Jeff Teague
Ish

They had a couple other good players too and all the parts. How where they not better?

[dhsilv]

He's actually got pretty solid stats this year, he might actually make philly better.

[HylianNightmare]

Tony wroten gonna get picked up

[DMAVS41]

He's actually got pretty solid stats this year, he might actually make philly better.

Maybe, but what a stupid trade. Makes no sense from a strategic standpoint and is only about the perception.

Hinkie is getting screwed here...he told everyone what was going on, but he didn't put enough time into really explaining it to get some of the media/fans on his side.

Just a stupid stupid stupid trade.

Unless of course Ish turns out to be something completely different than every indicator we have says he is.

[GOBB]

Being as tho Sixers are as bad as you can get, Ish making them better isn't saying much. I think he is what he is, just a guy who happens to be better than anything Sixers have had at PG, who had a good chemistry with Noel (helped him last night). Seems Hinkie always wanted to keep Ish, but Ish had other plans which was weird accepting a non guaranteed contract with Wizards.

Sixers may look more watchable now than before but overall end result will still be the same. Bottom 2 record.

Sixers now have no second rd picks in 2016 or 2017

[Jameerthefear]

Sixers traded 2 2nd rounders for a player they could have resigned :roll:

[Ca$H]

If that is the price for Ish Smith then maybe the Lakers can get their pick back in exchange for Clarkson.

[GOBB]

Sixers traded 2 2nd rounders for a player they could have resigned :roll:

They tried to resign him, he turned down their offer and went with a non guaranteed contract. You've been educated, you're welcome.

[Jameerthefear]

They tried to resign him, he turned down their offer and went with a non guaranteed contract. You've been educated, you're welcome.
They could have tripled his money if they wanted to. They're far under the cap. They didn't and paid for it.

[GOBB]

They could have tripled his money if they wanted to. They're far under the cap. They didn't and paid for it.

Huh? You laughed at the idea Sixers could have just signed Ish this summer but Ish turned down the Sixers offer. He didn't want to play there. Why would we overpay dramatically as you're implying for a guy who is a backup PG at best?

You don't acknowledge he went to the Wizards agreeing to a NON GUARANTEED deal only to get waived and picked up by the Pelicans who traded him. This was all done in a short time span.

You don't make sense, hold this L. Your reply should have been "Ok, I didn't realize Sixers offered him a deal and he rejected it. Thanks". And we move on.

But hey if you want to keep going? I'll hand you more L's than my Sixers have. :confusedshrug:

[Jameerthefear]

Huh? You laughed at the idea Sixers could have just signed Ish this summer but Ish turned down the Sixers offer. He didn't want to play there. Why would we overpay dramatically as you're implying for a guy who is a backup PG at best?

You don't acknowledge he went to the Wizards agreeing to a NON GUARANTEED deal only to get waived and picked up by the Pelicans who traded him. This was all done in a short time span.

You don't make sense, hold this L. Your reply should have been "Ok, I didn't realize Sixers offered him a deal and he rejected it. Thanks". And we move on.

But hey if you want to keep going? I'll hand you more L's than my Sixers have. :confusedshrug:
You guys just overpaid anyways jackass. You gave up 2 2nd rounders for a backup. You could have made an offer he couldn't reject and just triple his money, but they didn't and then make a dumb trade to get a player that they'll have for what, 50 games? Pels gave him a million, he's not rejecting $3m. Screwup by Hinkie and his jackasses in the FO

[GOBB]

You guys just overpaid anyways jackass. You gave up 2 2nd rounders for a backup.[/qupte]

2nd rd picks = crap shoot. The majority of 2nd rd picks actually work discussing is small. I challenge you to list the past 3 drafts of second rd picks worthy of discussing. I'll start you off...

1. Jordan Clarkson
2.
3.
4.
5.

Then what I'll do is take the total number of 2nd rd picks and compare them to your final list.

OR we can bypass that and you accept yet another L in your life? You're really going to sit here and talk about second rd picks when Sixers have 3 first rd picks next draft? Where out of all the collecting of 2nd rd picks Hinkie has done we are left with just rookie Holmes and second year player Jerami Grant?

But it's your call how bad you want to get owned here. I feel like I'm on COD and facing a xmas noob.

[QUOTE]You could have made an offer he couldn't reject and just triple his money,

Why? We gave him an offer BETTER than the one he took in Wash. Again you refuse to acknowledge that dipshit.

Second what NBA franchise gave a journeyman triple their worth? What NBA franchise gave a player triple their worth? You dont even make sense. You're just spewing nonsense because you did not know the Sixers offered him a deal and he rejected it. You ASSumed Sixers let him walk into free agency by not attempting to keep him only to turn around and trade for him.

That pain in your chest is the L being tattooed on your chest. Wear it well.


but they didn't and then make a dumb trade to get a player that they'll have for what, 50 games?

No they traded for a guy who will probably have a better time running Antoni system than what we have. So you go with Ish Smith/Kendall Marshall. You act like Sixers have better options at PG. Ish worked well with Noel who prior to this trade was having a bad season. Ish first game and Noel looks like he did last season when Ish came aboard. Coincidence?

Sixers have 3 first rd picks potentially 4 if Lakers pick is given up.
Sixers will have 2 first rd picks in 2017 draft if Lakers pick isnt given up in 2016.

Whats my point? That losing a pair of second rd picks isn't the end of the world regardless how long Ish Smith is here for.


Pels gave him a million, he's not rejecting $3m. Screwup by Hinkie and his jackasses in the FO


Huh?
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4305/ish-smith

Thats Ish Smith career. 11 teams in 5 years. He's on pace to break Jim Jackson journey man record. He's a career backup at best. Do you even understand what that means? His upside is a backup PG, his most likely spot is 3rd PG on a depth chart. Check his stats and try to argue he is worth overpaying times 3. You now sound like an idiot.

How many L's did you take in this reply? Man I lost count. :roll:

[Meticode]

See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273972

[Jameerthefear]

[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]You guys just overpaid anyways jackass. You gave up 2 2nd rounders for a backup.[/qupte]

2nd rd picks = crap shoot. The majority of 2nd rd picks actually work discussing is small. I challenge you to list the past 3 drafts of second rd picks worthy of discussing. I'll start you off...

1. Jordan Clarkson
2.
3.
4.
5.

Then what I'll do is take the total number of 2nd rd picks and compare them to your final list.

OR we can bypass that and you accept yet another L in your life? You're really going to sit here and talk about second rd picks when Sixers have 3 first rd picks next draft? Where out of all the collecting of 2nd rd picks Hinkie has done we are left with just rookie Holmes and second year player Jerami Grant?

But it's your call how bad you want to get owned here. I feel like I'm on COD and facing a xmas noob.



Why? We gave him an offer BETTER than the one he took in Wash. Again you refuse to acknowledge that dipshit.

Second what NBA franchise gave a journeyman triple their worth? What NBA franchise gave a player triple their worth? You dont even make sense. You're just spewing nonsense because you did not know the Sixers offered him a deal and he rejected it. You ASSumed Sixers let him walk into free agency by not attempting to keep him only to turn around and trade for him.

That pain in your chest is the L being tattooed on your chest. Wear it well.



No they traded for a guy who will probably have a better time running Antoni system than what we have. So you go with Ish Smith/Kendall Marshall. You act like Sixers have better options at PG. Ish worked well with Noel who prior to this trade was having a bad season. Ish first game and Noel looks like he did last season when Ish came aboard. Coincidence?

Sixers have 3 first rd picks potentially 4 if Lakers pick is given up.
Sixers will have 2 first rd picks in 2017 draft if Lakers pick isnt given up in 2016.

Whats my point? That losing a pair of second rd picks isn't the end of the world regardless how long Ish Smith is here for.




Huh?
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4305/ish-smith

Thats Ish Smith career. 11 teams in 5 years. He's on pace to break Jim Jackson journey man record. He's a career backup at best. Do you even understand what that means? His upside is a backup PG, his most likely spot is 3rd PG on a depth chart. Check his stats and try to argue he is worth overpaying times 3. You now sound like an idiot.

How many L's did you take in this reply? Man I lost count. :roll:
You're so dumb you don't even know your own GM's plan. Hinkie's whole plan is getting a shit ton of draft picks and then rolling the dice on them.
The 2nd round is by no means a good way to get talent, but it's good to just take a look. The 2nd rounders were pretty high too but it is pretty much a crapshoot. Since we're naming notable 2nd rounders in the last couple years:
Clarkson
Allen Crabbe
Canaan
Jokic
Josh Richarson

"wahhh wahhh why overpay"
Because you can you ****ing moron. They're $11m under the cap. They are under the minimum, it's not like you keep the money, you're going to have to give it to the players anyways. So now... you gave up 2 picks for a backup that you could have signed by tripling his money. He's not turning down 3-3.5m guaranteed. Losing the picks isn't the end of the world but if he was that valuable you could have just overpaid and kept him and there'd be no issue.
You're even helping my point, the Sixers gave up 2 picks for a career journeyman :roll: :roll:

[AirTupac]

Gobb reeks of desperation of trying to sound young and hip with the whole "L" talk.

[AI09]

Anyway Gobb wants to word it at the end of the day sixers fuked up, I personally would've kept the picks and played out the rest of the season. It doesnt matter if we have 3-4 first rounders those 2nds still help and we couldve gotten something way better than Ish.Why give up 2 picks for a guy who doesn't want to play here and won't help us enough to be a legimate team.I might be wrong but we could've picked him up off waivers before Pelicans? This is clearly a Colengelo/Dantoni/Brown move more than a Hinkie move. I don't see Hinkie staying around next year after this trade just goes to show us how much power he has lost.

[chocolatethunder]

I'm in morocco on vacation so I haven't been able to see any of this shit but I'll throw my two cents in here. Things are so bad for the Sixers that I actually think having Ish Smith on the team is a good thing. I said as much in a thread about Hinkie when Colangelo was hired and I said I was annoyed that they let him go. Not becuase he's good, I mean he's not really good. He did however mesh well with Noel and really helped Noel offensively. He sucks on D but so does the rest of their backcourt. I DONT CARE ABOUT TWO SECOND ROUND PICKS. They are for the next two seasons and the Sixers have potentially four first round picks this year so I'm not that concerned. Yes I understand that they probably may have just been used as assets in a trade but I imagine that Hinkie will take on some salary at the deadline to get one of them back. The Sixers are a team filled with shitty second round picks and with other second rounders playing in the D league and abroad so I'm not concerned at all. People freaking out about them giving up two second rounders have to realize that for every Draymond Green and Jordan Clarkson there are a million dudes who never get past a summer league roster. It no big deal. It was a mistake allowing him to walk in the first place. Hey, I'm just happy Wroten is gone he was awful before his injury and now he's even more awful. If only Caanan was gone I would be tickled pink.

[el gringos]

Self proclaimed legend arguing against somebody that basically saying 2 2nd round picks would be worth between a million and 2 million in salary.


Those picks are worth that. More than that. Even if you just straight sold them they're worth double of that.

[AI09]

Just saying we couldve gotten more for Denvers 2nd rounder this year and our 2nd rounder next year.We've been giving up more to get those 2nd rounders than Ish is worth and didn't we trade Evan Turner Hawes and Thaddeus for a 2nd rounders?

[GOBB]

[QUOTE=GOBB]
You're so dumb you don't even know your own GM's plan. Hinkie's whole plan is getting a shit ton of draft picks and then rolling the dice on them.
The 2nd round is by no means a good way to get talent, but it's good to just take a look. The 2nd rounders were pretty high too but it is pretty much a crapshoot. Since we're naming notable 2nd rounders in the last couple years:
Clarkson
Allen Crabbe
Canaan
Jokic
Josh Richarson

:roll: So you're struggling to give me just 5 names over there? My point proven.

The Sixers have 3 first rd picks next draft. How many roster spots will they have again?

But you're upset they didnt keep a second rd pick.


"wahhh wahhh why overpay"
Because you can you ****ing moron. They're $11m under the cap. They are under the minimum, it's not like you keep the money, you're going to have to give it to the players anyways. So now... you gave up 2 picks for a backup that you could have signed by tripling his money. He's not turning down 3-3.5m guaranteed. Losing the picks isn't the end of the world but if he was that valuable you could have just overpaid and kept him and there'd be no issue.
You're even helping my point, the Sixers gave up 2 picks for a career journeyman :roll: :roll:

You sound like a kid detached from reality. Stop watching so much anime.

You do not overpay for Ish Smith. Only an idiot like yourself would think you should. Sixers gave up 2 picks where in 3-4 years we look back and its meaningless. Then what? They are 2nd rd picks idiot. How many do you think make this roster 3 years in on the Hinkie plan? I'll wait

Oak
Noel
Holmes
Embiid
Cov
Nik S
Canaan
J.Grant
J.Sampson

That's 9 players and you have 3 first rd picks, potentially 4 if Lakers comes over. Where is the room for the second rd picks again? :rolleyes:

The whole idea behind stockpiling 2nd rd picks when many said "you cant even use them to field the roster because there will be no room" was for trade options.

You bring in Jerry, you bring in Antoni and Antoni is being said to be the one who asked for Ish Smith.

"Nah sorry can't do it because we need our second rd picks"

:biggums:

I'm going to flush the toilet because I've sat on this toilet long enough shitting on u.

[GOBB]

Just saying we couldve gotten more for Denvers 2nd rounder this year and our 2nd rounder next year.We've been giving up more to get those 2nd rounders than Ish is worth and didn't we trade Evan Turner Hawes and Thaddeus for a 2nd rounders?

Got more like what? You're really over valuing second rd picks. Stop it.

Look how many second rd picks Sixers had last draft. How many are on this team? Do you even know who the Sixers drafted in the 2nd rd without googling?

Stop it already.

[Milbuck]

http://i.imgur.com/Ae4qrox.png

[brownmamba00]

I wouldn't have waived Wroten like that he still got some potential left in him...but Ish does look like he's gonna put up some decent number as the starting point. Still it's weird they gave up 2 picks for a journeyman that didn't want to be in Philly before.

He'll leave anyway

[GOBB]

Self proclaimed legend arguing against somebody that basically saying 2 2nd round picks would be worth between a million and 2 million in salary.


Those picks are worth that. More than that. Even if you just straight sold them they're worth double of that.

You're an insecure dipshit. Why are you still on this "self proclaimed legend" nonsense? This is what I'll do for you. Use the search function you nitwit and find me where I claimed I am a legend. I'll paypal you $50.

Shitheads still stuck on crap said years ago when Andre Miller was a starter for the Sixers. Move on. Were you that butt hurt back then fella? Let me know I'll apologize to your sensitive ass. Sorry I made you feel inferior as a poster here by saying that years ago. You ok now? Sure? Chances are you're not. Scarred, pretty sad.

Anyway Ish Smith turned down a deal with the Sixers. You guys acting like this is a video game where you do abnormal moronic stuff like overpay for him. How do you even know what Ish Smith wanted? Did he want triple the pay? Did he want a long term deal? Did he want that but not with the SIXERS? You're sitting there speculating when in reality we know he REJECTED an offer then TOOK A NON GUARANTEED CONTRACT. What player does that? One thats been on 11 teams in 5 years. One who shoots under 40% for a career. One who isnt much of a 3pt threat. You kids are killing me how you want to overpay dramatically a journey man PG that played on 3 teams in the past 3 months. Shut thee f*ck up.

[Jameerthefear]

ur so absolutely retarded lmao
you have no idea, the 6ers could have signed ISH for $3m and have the 2nd year a team or player option and IT WOULD HAVE NO EFFECT. "you don't overpay players" HALF THE PLAYERS ON THE SIXERS ARE OVERPAID BECAUSE THEY AREN'T EVEN NBA PLAYERS. You have to reach the minimum cap regardless, they don't get to keep the money, so why not spend it on someone who helped your team and cornerstone player Noel? you're so dense you don't understand this. now, they had to give up 2 picks for someone they could have had for absolutely nothing. this isn't a big deal, no, but it's a poor ownership decision by Hinkie because, again, you overpay Ish and there's absolutely no negative effect. i can't even believe someone would argue this.

[Jameerthefear]

You're an insecure dipshit. Why are you still on this "self proclaimed legend" nonsense? This is what I'll do for you. Use the search function you nitwit and find me where I claimed I am a legend. I'll paypal you $50.

Shitheads still stuck on crap said years ago when Andre Miller was a starter for the Sixers. Move on. Were you that butt hurt back then fella? Let me know I'll apologize to your sensitive ass. Sorry I made you feel inferior as a poster here by saying that years ago. You ok now? Sure? Chances are you're not. Scarred, pretty sad.

Anyway Ish Smith turned down a deal with the Sixers. You guys acting like this is a video game where you do abnormal moronic stuff like overpay for him. How do you even know what Ish Smith wanted? Did he want triple the pay? Did he want a long term deal? Did he want that but not with the SIXERS? You're sitting there speculating when in reality we know he REJECTED an offer then TOOK A NON GUARANTEED CONTRACT. What player does that? One thats been on 11 teams in 5 years. One who shoots under 40% for a career. One who isnt much of a 3pt threat. You kids are killing me how you want to overpay dramatically a journey man PG that played on 3 teams in the past 3 months. Shut thee f*ck up.
Good thing you guys gave up 2 second rounders for him then! Genius move Hinkie! :bowdown:

[GOBB]

I wouldn't have waived Wroten like that he still got some potential left in him...but Ish does look like he's gonna put up some decent number as the starting point. Still it's weird they gave up 2 picks for a journeyman that didn't want to be in Philly before.

He'll leave anyway

Sixers gave up 2 2nd rd picks for Wroten whom they waived because he shot poor from FG, 3pt, FT and had more turnovers than field goals made. They included him in a deal for Ish Smith and Pelicans said no thanks.



you have no idea, the 6ers could have signed ISH for $3m and have the 2nd year a team or player option and IT WOULD HAVE NO EFFECT. "you don't overpay players" HALF THE PLAYERS ON THE SIXERS ARE OVERPAID BECAUSE THEY AREN'T EVEN NBA PLAYERS. You have to reach the minimum cap regardless, they don't get to keep the money, so why not spend it on someone who helped your team and cornerstone player Noel? you're so dense you don't understand this. now, they had to give up 2 picks for someone they could have had for absolutely nothing. this isn't a big deal, no, but it's a poor ownership decision by Hinkie because, again, you overpay Ish and there's absolutely no negative effect. i can't even believe someone would argue this.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHI.html

Point out half the players overpaid. You stay talking out of your ass.

Love how you dodged the other stuff. Typical when you're way behind in a discussion. :roll:


Sources say newly hired Philadelphia 76ers lead assistant Mike 'Antoni is impressed with Smith's abilities and wanted to get him on their roster.

:rolleyes:

[Milbuck]

Good thing you guys gave up 2 second rounders for him then! Genius move Hinkie! :bowdown:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[GOBB]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bucks lottery bound, everything was all good just a season ago :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

huge ish smith fan here

[Milbuck]

Bucks lottery bound, everything was all good just a season ago :oldlol:
The Bucks are having a garbage season and still have 6 times as many wins as the Sixers :roll: :roll:

[GOBB]

The Bucks are having a garbage season and still have 6 times as many wins as the Sixers :roll: :roll:

End result? Both teams in the lottery. :oldlol: See you there pal

[Milbuck]

End result? Both teams in the lottery. :oldlol: See you there pal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXy892notAY

http://i.imgur.com/OAftTYB.jpg

You are so mad right now :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[AI09]

Got more like what? You're really over valuing second rd picks. Stop it.

Look how many second rd picks Sixers had last draft. How many are on this team? Do you even know who the Sixers drafted in the 2nd rd without googling?

Stop it already.

I know they drafted Holmes and he's showing potential
I know they drafted Tokoto and he's gone
I know they traded a pick to NY and idk bout the rest of the draft prob draft and stash idk.

The point is the 3 players they drafted in the 30-40 range all shown potential and that's where the two 2nd rounders are projected to be. The 3 players being Grant Holmes and McDaniels(say what you want about him but hes a nba player no doubt). Man we couldve sold the picks we would've gotten more value than ish.

[Springsteen]

End result? Both teams in the lottery. :oldlol: See you there pal

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--aJmLKq4Q--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_north,h_358,q_80,w_636/18kx9t3on9n28jpg.jpg

[chocolatethunder]

Hold up a second here.

KJ is a fringe NBA player. He may stay on a roster but he'll never play more than 10 min a game. Can't dribble and can't shoot. He can kind of defend but his defense amounts to gambling for steals and blocks. If you have seen him play a bunch you would know this.

Grant may end up being a 15 min a night guy on a decent team. Holmes, who knows. These are the types of players that you can always find via free agency. To pretend like the Sixers gave up a ton in two second round picks is ridiculous. Very few first round picks end up panning out and second round picks are even worse.

Wroten is trash. Anyone who thinks he has untapped potential has not seen him play. He's a ball stopper, undersized shot jacker who plays no D.

They never should have let Ish go and I said that when it happened. Not because he's some great player but because he worked well with Noel. That was Hinkie being Morey Jr. and it backfired.

I don't give a shit about two second round picks when they have four firsts (potentially) this year an Saric coming over and (hopeful but doubtful) Embiid coming back. It's not necessary. Oh shit situations like these are one of the reasons you stockpile these picks for.


Oh and one more thing for Milbuck. I hate MCW but I actually kind of like Milwaukee in spite of my hate for Jason Kidd. I thought Kidd did a nice job last year. That being said, they suck this year. I dunno why but they just aren't good. I'm disappointed because I like to see good basketball. As much as I hate MCW I want him to succeed I just don't think he's capable. The more good players/teams, the better. That being said, for all the shit you talk, you need to sit back and take an L on how shitty they are this year so just clam up and stop acting like a sixth grader. Have a great New Years.

[GOBB]

Millbuck gets destroyed :roll:

[Milbuck]

Hold up a second here.

KJ is a fringe NBA player. He may stay on a roster but he'll never play more than 10 min a game. Can't dribble and can't shoot. He can kind of defend but his defense amounts to gambling for steals and blocks. If you have seen him play a bunch you would know this.

Grant may end up being a 15 min a night guy on a decent team. Holmes, who knows. These are the types of players that you can always find via free agency. To pretend like the Sixers gave up a ton in two second round picks is ridiculous. Very few first round picks end up panning out and second round picks are even worse.

Wroten is trash. Anyone who thinks he has untapped potential has not seen him play. He's a ball stopper, undersized shot jacker who plays no D.

They never should have let Ish go and I said that when it happened. Not because he's some great player but because he worked well with Noel. That was Hinkie being Morey Jr. and it backfired.

I don't give a shit about two second round picks when they have four firsts (potentially) this year an Saric coming over and (hopeful but doubtful) Embiid coming back. It's not necessary. Oh shit situations like these are one of the reasons you stockpile these picks for.


Oh and one more thing for Milbuck. I hate MCW but I actually kind of like Milwaukee in spite of my hate for Jason Kidd. I thought Kidd did a nice job last year. That being said, they suck this year. I dunno why but they just aren't good. I'm disappointed because I like to see good basketball. As much as I hate MCW I want him to succeed I just don't think he's capable. The more good players/teams, the better. That being said, for all the shit you talk, you need to sit back and take an L on how shitty they are this year so just clam up and stop acting like a sixth grader. Have a great New Years.
Holy shit this dude is melting down even harder than GOBB :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://i.imgur.com/OAftTYB.jpg


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Milbuck]

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--aJmLKq4Q--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_north,h_358,q_80,w_636/18kx9t3on9n28jpg.jpg
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

I'm confused...what is the debate here?

Is anyone actually saying this is a good trade for the Sixers?

[Jameerthefear]

I'm confused...what is the debate here?

Is anyone actually saying this is a good trade for the Sixers?
GOBB is.

[DMAVS41]

GOBB is.

Well, no, it's a bad trade. It makes no sense. The Nuggets pick will be good this year and it's unlikely the Sixers aren't one of the worst teams next year.

These picks are easily worth more than Ish Smith...and Ish Smith that is on an expiring deal and probably won't even stay with the Sixers going forward.

No ****ing way Hinkie wanted to do this.

Feel bad for Sam...all that great work he did...and he loses 2 2nd rounders for a scrub.

[GOBB]

Well, no, it's a bad trade. It makes no sense. The Nuggets pick will be good this year and it's unlikely the Sixers aren't one of the worst teams next year.

These picks are easily worth more than Ish Smith...and Ish Smith that is on an expiring deal and probably won't even stay with the Sixers going forward.

No ****ing way Hinkie wanted to do this.

Feel bad for Sam...all that great work he did...and he loses 2 2nd rounders for a scrub.

The second rd picks mean little. I have no problem trading them to bring in a guy who can probably make other guys value increase now (especially Noel). Regardless if he is a free agent at seasons end if he can help boost some guys value then I'm all for it.

Look at sixers roster and tell me where 2 2nd rd picks fit in. Embiid Saric 3 first rd picks will need roster spots. 4 if lakers pick conveys. At least 5 roster spots will be on hold. Not to add the guys we currently have. No room for 2nd rd picks, most of our 2nd rd picks aren't even on this roster.

We gave up 2 second rd picks for Tony Wroten who we released. What exactly do u think u are gonna get with the picks we gave up?

If sixers plan on trading Noel or listening to offers? They will be better offers now that ish is here than if he weren't.

Make no mistake ish smith at best is a backup pg. so I'm not making him out to be anything great. But he fits Antoni systems supposedly but most importantly the sixers looks better offensively with him last season.

[DMAVS41]

The second rd picks mean little. I have no problem trading them to bring in a guy who can probably make other guys value increase now (especially Noel). Regardless if he is a free agent at seasons end if he can help boost some guys value then I'm all for it.

Look at sixers roster and tell me where 2 2nd rd picks fit in. Embiid Saric 3 first rd picks will need roster spots. 4 if lakers pick conveys. At least 5 roster spots will be on hold. Not to add the guys we currently have. No room for 2nd rd picks, most of our 2nd rd picks aren't even on this roster.

We gave up 2 second rd picks for Tony Wroten who we released. What exactly do u think u are gonna get with the picks we gave up?

If sixers plan on trading Noel or listening to offers? They will be better offers now that ish is here than if he weren't.

Make no mistake ish smith at best is a backup pg. so I'm not making him out to be anything great. But he fits Antoni systems supposedly but most importantly the sixers looks better offensively with him last season.

This is a false equivalence. Who says the Sixers have to keep their picks or trade for Ish Smith with them?

Those aren't the only two options.

I also don't think they mean very little. Not only can you get lucky and get a future all star player, but they are nice trade assets...

It's just a bad trade. Doesn't make any sense...and the upside is just not there unless Ish becomes way better than everyone agrees he has the potential to be.

You said it correct...he's a backup pg at best. Well, you don't trade 2 pretty decent 2nd round picks for a backup pg that likely won't even be on the team next year. Especially when you aren't even trying to win games.

Lastly, it would be a mistake to ship Noel...especially now. Shipping Okafor this summer makes a lot more sense than Noel. Okafor's value is higher...and I don't think you are winning much with Okafor as your guy...or playing a huge role. I'd rather move him than Noel for sure.

[ISHGoat]

I didn't read this entire thread but it seems this delusional sixers homer is having a meltdown.

If they wanted to keep Ish, they should have overpaid. Why? Because they were under the salary floor. That money gets paid out regardless. Now they lose two second round picks and still have the same payroll. :roll:

[Styles p]

Ish is here to make a struggling noel play better we had no pg who can penetrate and throw a oop to him. they built up chemistry last season. ish was also having a good season so far under gentry, a under study to d'antoni. who is seriously mad about 2 second round picks? you can literally buy more. and for wroten have any of you watched him play this season? all he does is run into the lane and wildly throw the ball against the back board and it never goes in he can't shoot or make plays. the guy had more turnovers than points this before being cut.

[DMAVS41]

Ish is here to make a struggling noel play better we had no pg who can penetrate and throw a oop to him. they built up chemistry last season. ish was also having a good season so far under gentry, a under study to d'antoni. who is seriously mad about 2 second round picks? you can literally buy more. and for wroten have any of you watched him play this season? all he does is run into the lane and wildly throw the ball against the back board and it never goes in he can't shoot or make plays. the guy had more turnovers than points this before being cut.

The narrow minded views here never cease to amaze me.

The options were not:

1. Keep the picks

2. Trade picks for Ish Smith

Like...you guys realize that there were more options than this...right?

[Styles p]

The narrow minded views here never cease to amaze me.

The options were not:

1. Keep the picks

2. Trade picks for Ish Smith

Like...you guys realize that there were more options than this...right?

so what are the other options, please elaborate. not trading at all and staying at 1 win the rest of the season?

[DMAVS41]

so what are the other options, please elaborate. not trading at all and staying at 1 win the rest of the season?

Even without a trade...they would have won more than 1 game the rest of the season. Just to clear that up...

And yes, staying at 1 win the rest of the season would be a better option than making this trade.

There is a real chance the Lakers win less games than the Sixers...and that would be a mistake given that this is clearly a lost season.

This is all about the optics and perception...that should be obvious. This is a short term move to make them look better the rest of the season...but will do nothing of note long term for them unless Ish is better than we all think (which is always a possibility, but not likely)

I'd be more in favor of them trying to make a big move rather than just dumping 2 legit 2nd round picks for nothing of note

[SwishSquared]

People can say that these picks are worthless and the odds of them turning into anything useful is likely small. Very likely will be true. However, trading a a 2nd pick that currently belongs to a team tied for the 7th worst record, in addition to Philly's 2017 2nd round pick (which likely will have a bottom 10 record once more in 2016-2017) is not smart in a vacuum for a guy who's a 3rd string, journeyman PG.

Philly needed to juice its PG rotation somehow and it badly needed to perk up Noel imo. Getting Ish accomplishes both of those things, but that shows how badly the FO misjudged its PG situation in the summer. They needed to bring in a guy who couldn't get a guaranteed deal in FA to help their offense.

I thought this team should have overpaid for CoJo (Brett Brown connection, more money, more PT), even if it was maybe a longshot. We never heard that they tried to get him. I may be incorrect, but Ish turned down Philly's contract offer this summer, as opposed to outright refusing to be there. Marshall took a very team-favorable deal. Maybe give Ish a 1-year, $4M fully-guaranteed deal to entice him to come back? I thought it was reckless rolling with Canaan (not a PG) and an undrafted rookie (McConnell) as your PGs until Marshall and Wroten came back from injury. It was a recipe for disaster. Maybe they truly misjudged how long Marshall would take to recover, according to Hinkie's interview with Lowe. That seemed naive to me, especially with how cautious they are with injuries.

This is the first trade that Hinkie's FO lost, but I feel it was done by the Colangelo/D'Antoni tandem more than Hinkie.

The team looked better with Ish running things and Noel back in the middle vs. Phoenix, but that team is crumbling and Bledsoe got hurt. Positive sign that Nerlens and Stauskas looked better, but let's see how they play vs. the Jazz.

Also, they can make spots on the roster to accommodate at least 3 first rounders, Saric, and Embiid, if the concern is running out of roster spots. You think that the team would re-sign Wroten/Canaan or keep others (via trade or waive) if they valued the incoming talent more than the incumbents?

I don't know who they could have gotten instead, but this was definitely an overpay to correct for mistakes made during the summer.

[DMAVS41]

People can say that these picks are worthless and the odds of them turning into anything useful is likely small. Very likely will be true. However, trading a a 2nd pick that currently belongs to a team tied for the 7th worst record, in addition to Philly's 2017 2nd round pick (which likely will have a bottom 10 record once more in 2016-2017) is not smart in a vacuum for a guy who's a 3rd string, journeyman PG.

Philly needed to juice its PG rotation somehow and it badly needed to perk up Noel imo. Getting Ish accomplishes both of those things, but that shows how badly the FO misjudged its PG situation in the summer. They needed to bring in a guy who couldn't get a guaranteed deal in FA to help their offense.

I thought this team should have overpaid for CoJo (Brett Brown connection, more money, more PT), even if it was maybe a longshot. We never heard that they tried to get him. I may be incorrect, but Ish turned down Philly's contract offer this summer, as opposed to outright refusing to be there. Marshall took a very team-favorable deal. Maybe give Ish a 1-year, $4M fully-guaranteed deal to entice him to come back? I thought it was reckless rolling with Canaan (not a PG) and an undrafted rookie (McConnell) as your PGs until Marshall and Wroten came back from injury. It was a recipe for disaster. Maybe they truly misjudged how long Marshall would take to recover, according to Hinkie's interview with Lowe. That seemed naive to me, especially with how cautious they are with injuries.

This is the first trade that Hinkie's FO lost, but I feel it was done by the Colangelo/D'Antoni tandem more than Hinkie.

The team looked better with Ish running things and Noel back in the middle vs. Phoenix, but that team is crumbling and Bledsoe got hurt. Positive sign that Nerlens and Stauskas looked better, but let's see how they play vs. the Jazz.

Also, they can make spots on the roster to accommodate at least 3 first rounders, Saric, and Embiid, if the concern is running out of roster spots. You think that the team would re-sign Wroten/Canaan or keep others (via trade or waive) if they valued the incoming talent more than the incumbents?

I don't know who they could have gotten instead, but this was definitely an overpay to correct for mistakes made during the summer.


Would bet everything I have that Hinkie wanted to break shit after his hand was forced by Colangelo/D'Antoni.

This is not his trade at all...and it's just about the perception right now...it's about nothing more than a quick fix to make the team look a little better the next few months.

Just stupid. If you are going to trade two nice looking early 2nd rounders...make a bigger deal. Go for something else...they have all the assets to do it. Don't just throw 2 picks away to try and show that there is a new voice within the franchise.

[SwishSquared]

Would bet everything I have that Hinkie wanted to break shit after his hand was forced by Colangelo/D'Antoni.

This is not his trade at all...and it's just about the perception right now...it's about nothing more than a quick fix to make the team look a little better the next few months.

Just stupid. If you are going to trade two nice looking early 2nd rounders...make a bigger deal. Go for something else...they have all the assets to do it. Don't just throw 2 picks away to try and show that there is a new voice within the franchise.Definitely agree that if you want to trade those picks that you should aim higher than somebody of Ish Smith's caliber. Maybe this is a special circumstance where you value his connection with Noel more than you would a typical journey man, but it's still an overpay.

They needed to pick up a couple wins to make the guys feel better and improve their perception around the league, like you said. I do think that if Noel plays the majority of his mins with Smith (I highly expect this), he can rehab his value around the league. He has to play C with a PnR partner who can spoon feed him lobs. I expect Okafor will play majority of his mins with Marshall at PG going forward.

I don't expect Smith to add many wins this year, but maybe they look more competitive more frequently. They had a stretch where they blew 4th quarter leads, but maybe now they'll close out games better. I still think that they're bad enough to guarantee a bottom 2 record, but it'll be a relative disaster if the Lakers finish with a worse record.

[DMAVS41]

Definitely agree that if you want to trade those picks that you should aim higher than somebody of Ish Smith's caliber. Maybe this is a special circumstance where you value his connection with Noel more than you would a typical journey man, but it's still an overpay.

They needed to pick up a couple wins to make the guys feel better and improve their perception around the league, like you said. I do think that if Noel plays the majority of his mins with Smith (I highly expect this), he can rehab his value around the league. He has to play C with a PnR partner who can spoon feed him lobs. I expect Okafor will play majority of his mins with Marshall at PG going forward.

I don't expect Smith to add many wins this year, but maybe they look more competitive more frequently. They had a stretch where they blew 4th quarter leads, but maybe now they'll close out games better. I still think that they're bad enough to guarantee a bottom 2 record, but it'll be a relative disaster if the Lakers finish with a worse record.

Yea, I guess if they are planning to move Noel...you could argue that it's not terrible.

Ugh...I think that would be a big mistake and didn't factor that into my assessment.

So, I have to then add this...if the Sixers are planning on moving Noel this summer or in the near future...this trade makes a lot more sense.

[chocolatethunder]

Yea, I guess if they are planning to move Noel...you could argue that it's not terrible.

Ugh...I think that would be a big mistake and didn't factor that into my assessment.

So, I have to then add this...if the Sixers are planning on moving Noel this summer or in the near future...this trade makes a lot more sense.
Although I normally agree w almost everything that you say, I'm totally on board w this trade. I actually think it's kind of funny that becuase of Hinkie's maneuvering and scheming that there's a sense of overvaluing second round picks. I'm ok w giving up those picks the next two years for him. No it's not ideal but I think it's important to have Ish Smith here. That's how pathetic the Sixers are. In saying Ish Smith is a good pick up and we are arguing about them giving up two early seconds for him because everyone is so concerned about "assets". There are very few lucky picks in the second round that end up being Clarkson and Green etc. I understand that there are other things that they could have potbetially done with those picks but I'm fine with what they chose to do. This team is awful and Smith worked well with Noel. If it costs two draft picks to fix a mistake, I'm fine with that. I didn't want to let him go in the first place and Hinkie was too smart for his own good in thinking that he could let him go. This should be a lesson to him and I'm good with that.

This is about as coherent as I can be today. I spent seven hours in a taxi traveling today and I can't really think or type.

[GOBB]

Why take a Taxi instead of an uber! lol


Yea, I guess if they are planning to move Noel...you could argue that it's not terrible.

Ugh...I think that would be a big mistake and didn't factor that into my assessment.

So, I have to then add this...if the Sixers are planning on moving Noel this summer or in the near future...this trade makes a lot more sense.

I said that. :biggums:


People can say that these picks are worthless and the odds of them turning into anything useful is likely small. Very likely will be true. However, trading a a 2nd pick that currently belongs to a team tied for the 7th worst record, in addition to Philly's 2017 2nd round pick (which likely will have a bottom 10 record once more in 2016-2017) is not smart in a vacuum for a guy who's a 3rd string, journeyman PG.

Philly needed to juice its PG rotation somehow and it badly needed to perk up Noel imo. Getting Ish accomplishes both of those things, but that shows how badly the FO misjudged its PG situation in the summer. They needed to bring in a guy who couldn't get a guaranteed deal in FA to help their offense.

I agree with this. It was an overpay but I'm fine with that. With the way Sixers have stockpiled second rd picks an overpay isn't that bad of an idea for the things you mentioned. Which is why I don't consider it a bad trade at the end of the day. We have 3 first rd picks next draft, possibly 4. And 2 first rd picks in 2017, possibly 1. Depends on Lakers pick. Throwing away 2 2nd rd picks isn't the end of the world. We gave up like 2-3 2nd rd picks in the Nik Stinkus trade last draft. But we also got the right to swap with the Kings next draft if they somehow leapfrogged our pick.

[DMAVS41]

Why take a Taxi instead of an uber! lol



I said that. :biggums:

I know you did...

[DMAVS41]

Although I normally agree w almost everything that you say, I'm totally on board w this trade. I actually think it's kind of funny that becuase of Hinkie's maneuvering and scheming that there's a sense of overvaluing second round picks. I'm ok w giving up those picks the next two years for him. No it's not ideal but I think it's important to have Ish Smith here. That's how pathetic the Sixers are. In saying Ish Smith is a good pick up and we are arguing about them giving up two early seconds for him because everyone is so concerned about "assets". There are very few lucky picks in the second round that end up being Clarkson and Green etc. I understand that there are other things that they could have potbetially done with those picks but I'm fine with what they chose to do. This team is awful and Smith worked well with Noel. If it costs two draft picks to fix a mistake, I'm fine with that. I didn't want to let him go in the first place and Hinkie was too smart for his own good in thinking that he could let him go. This should be a lesson to him and I'm good with that.

This is about as coherent as I can be today. I spent seven hours in a taxi traveling today and I can't really think or type.

You are under-rating the value of good 2nd round picks around the league. Draymond Green was just recently a 2nd round pick. They aren't close to worthless at all.

Like I just said...the only way this trade can be defended is if the plan is to pump and dump Noel this summer.

Now, I'd still say I don't like it because that is an overpay for Ish and I'd rather make a bigger move than trash 2 good 2nd rounders just to pump and dump a player.

Seems shortsighted and lacking of equal value...even if that is the plan.

[GOBB]

I know you did...

So it took another poster for you to finally go from "trade made no sense" to "you know what the trade may have made sense" :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

Anyway,


Lastly, it would be a mistake to ship Noel...especially now. Shipping Okafor this summer makes a lot more sense than Noel. Okafor's value is higher...and I don't think you are winning much with Okafor as your guy...or playing a huge role. I'd rather move him than Noel for sure.

Think Sixers may value Oak more than Noel at this point. One thing that is clear is Noel playing the PF diminishes his impact as a rim protector and he desperately needs a PG to spoon feed him buckets. The idea he will develop this midrange jumper evaporated quick. So I dunno, I see Noel as the odd man out especially if his contract situation comes earlier than Oak/Embiid.

Now how do Oak/Embiid fare together as a duo? Probably better on offense (assuming healthy) but defensively I see the same issue so...


This was definitely a Antoni move from what I read. Reports say Hinkie wanted Ish but Ish didnt want them. So I can't say for sure if Hinkie would have gave up 2 2nd rd picks for Ish if Antoni wasn't around and Hinkie really wanted Ish Smith back. I would lean towards no. But what do I know.

I agree it was an overpay
I disagree it was a bad trade for what has been mentioned earlier. If this was year 1 in the Hinkie tank then I would say it's a bad trade. I just feel we have stockpiled so many assets that losing 2 2nd rd picks isn't going to make or break them. We have more assets in hand be it draft picks, players that should arrive next season

[DMAVS41]

So it took another poster for you to finally go from "trade made no sense" to "you know what the trade may have made sense" :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

Anyway,



Think Sixers may value Oak more than Noel at this point. One thing that is clear is Noel playing the PF diminishes his impact as a rim protector and he desperately needs a PG to spoon feed him buckets. The idea he will develop this midrange jumper evaporated quick. So I dunno, I see Noel as the odd man out especially if his contract situation comes earlier than Oak/Embiid.

Now how do Oak/Embiid fare together as a duo? Probably better on offense (assuming healthy) but defensively I see the same issue so...

It still doesn't "make sense"...I said it makes a lot more sense...not that it actually makes sense...and it's still a bad trade and an overpay....one can defend it on the pump and dump of Noel, but that is merely a hypothetical that we don't even know is the cause.

Like I said...there are many other ways to go about this if you are going to dump 2...2nd rounders.

And here is why it doesn't make a lot of sense. You could move Noel and 2 2nd rounders right now and get more back than you would by trading Noel even if he starts to play better the rest of the year.

You can't have both Noel and Okafor...I agree with that. I'd personally rather have Noel and dump Okafor because I can envision a team with Noel at center that could be good on both ends with him playing big minutes. I can't really envision a team like that with Okafor.

[GOBB]

It still doesn't "make sense"...and it's still a bad trade....one can defend it on the pump and dump of Noel, but that is merely a hypothetical that we don't even know is the cause.

Like I said...there are many other ways to go about this if you are going to dump 2...2nd rounders.

You can't have both Noel and Okafor...I agree with that. I'd personally rather have Noel and dump Okafor because I can envision a team with Noel at center that could be good on both ends with him playing big minutes. I can't really envision a team like that with Okafor.

That may be true. But if they want Ish Smith and that is the asking price? Kind of hard to find other options that also fit what Antoni wants to do no? Just shows how desperate the Sixers are for a PG since it backfired this summer. We are arguing, well not so much us arguing rather discussing Ish Smith. Funny when I think about it.

At least I can have a solid convo with someone like you and Swish even if we disagree. Those other nitwits, pfft. I looked back and see I wasted too much time. :facepalm


Good point on Oak/Noel. Oak defense is just bad. I just dont know where I stand as of now when it comes to who i want for the future.

[DMAVS41]

That may be true. But if they want Ish Smith and that is the asking price? Kind of hard to find other options that also fit what Antoni wants to do no? Just shows how desperate the Sixers are for a PG since it backfired this summer. We are arguing, well not so much us arguing rather discussing Ish Smith. Funny when I think about it.

At least I can have a solid convo with someone like you and Swish even if we disagree. Those other nitwits, pfft. I looked back and see I wasted too much time. :facepalm

Of course. No ill will at all...this has been a good discussion and like I said, I have no problem looking at the pump and dump that you brought up. I heard you when you said it and I took notice...then posted about it...

I guess I should have quoted you on it, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't your point. If I did...I apologize.

However, and I'm going to include this here because I edited my above post that you quoted and you might have missed it.

Don't you think that the Sixers could get more for Noel and the 2 2nd rounders right now than they will be able to get with Noel alone this summer...even if he improves his play a little?

I mean...if they are doing this pretty much solely to pump and dump Noel...why not just move him with the 2 2nd rounders and get back something better or at least on par with what they'll get this summer?

That is the kind of thinking I was referencing when talking about I'd be for making a bigger move.

Just seems less risky...what if the Ish addition doesn't improve the value of Noel? What if Ish gets hurt? Many things can go wrong in this deal even if the pump/dump is the plan.

To me, Noel and 2 nice 2nd rounders is simply going to a better package. Unless Noel just takes off and plays a totally different game the next 50 games...teams, smart teams, know how good he currently is and what the potential is.

I guess I just don't see the upside of this move in realistic terms. Now, I full grant that if Ish somehow becomes a legit rotation player on a playoff team caliber player...and Noel takes a leap...then I'm wrong.

I just don't think that is realistic...especially the Ish part. I know you view Ish similar to how I view him as well.

[dhsilv]

Of course. No ill will at all...this has been a good discussion and like I said, I have no problem looking at the pump and dump that you brought up. I heard you when you said it and I took notice...then posted about it...

I guess I should have quoted you on it, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't your point. If I did...I apologize.

However, and I'm going to include this here because I edited my above post that you quoted and you might have missed it.

Don't you think that the Sixers could get more for Noel and the 2 2nd rounders right now than they will be able to get with Noel alone this summer...even if he improves his play a little?

I mean...if they are doing this pretty much solely to pump and dump Noel...why not just move him with the 2 2nd rounders and get back something better or at least on par with what they'll get this summer?

That is the kind of thinking I was referencing when talking about I'd be for making a bigger move.

Just seems less risky...what if the Ish addition doesn't improve the value of Noel? What if Ish gets hurt? Many things can go wrong in this deal even if the pump/dump is the plan.

I think they want to go through the draft before making a move like that, depending on who they get it could greatly change the kinds of moves they'll make going forward.

My biggest concern is if they're letting Dantoni make ANY decisions, he's not good enough a coach to be running this team's offense. He's not a GM by any stretch either.

[SwishSquared]

I won't quote posts since I'm being super lazy here haha...

If they do want to trade Noel, it makes sense to pump his value since it clearly decreased. Ish Smith was the one guy who helped him reach his peak value imo, so it makes sense to assume he can have the same effect this year.

I think it's a lot easier to build with Noel than around Okafor. Those are 2 different things, but Noel is a super role player type who can thrive with spacing and NBA level playmakers. I don't think it's crazy to think Nerlens can play at a peak Tyson Chandler level for a few years, and you can still win a title with a player like that in this NBA. Okafor needs shooters and a defensively elite, rim-protecting, and floor-spacing PF around him. That one guy is a lot harder to find IMO than the kinds of players you need to build with Noel. Maybe you roll the dice on finding such a player to pair with Okafor, but I think it's far easier to find high level PnR ballhandlers/playmakers.

I don't hate Okafor, but he's in an Al Jefferson mold, even if it's a lazy comparison. He has pretty post moves, is improving his FTs, and showing some range that he didn't flash in college. He's a terrible team defender, though he uses his size nicely in the paint when he doesn't have to rotate. I think he can be a rich man's Jefferson, perhaps based on will power alone. His deficiencies seem a lot hard to hide on both ends than Noel's imo. Is Noel's offensive game a bigger obstacle to winning than Okafor's D? I honestly don't think so.

Maybe the front office wants to keep its options open in terms of trading one of Okafor or Noel this summer. I think most in this thread agree that Okafor has a higher perceived value than Noel right now. Maybe in terms of trade flexibility, the front office deemed it necessary to boost Noel's trade value, even if they want to keep him. Teams will know that one of those two won't be in Philly long term and can give low ball offers.

I could be wrong and should look up the articles to back this up, but Ish Smith turned down the 76ers offer in July and waited like a month to get any other offers he'd accept. This is speculation, but based on Marshall's contract, it seems safe to assume that Hinkie offered multiple years with at least 1 year non-guaranteed. I don't think Ish Smith wanted that offer. I do think he would have taken 3x the minimum salary for 1 year, but Hinkie never gives out contracts like that, which is why talks broke down IMO.

[GOBB]

Of course. No ill will at all...this has been a good discussion and like I said, I have no problem looking at the pump and dump that you brought up. I heard you when you said it and I took notice...then posted about it...

I guess I should have quoted you on it, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't your point. If I did...I apologize.

It's all good, I was just being petty (call me on it next time). :lol


However, and I'm going to include this here because I edited my above post that you quoted and you might have missed it.

Don't you think that the Sixers could get more for Noel and the 2 2nd rounders right now than they will be able to get with Noel alone this summer...even if he improves his play a little?

I mean...if they are doing this pretty much solely to pump and dump Noel...why not just move him with the 2 2nd rounders and get back something better or at least on par with what they'll get this summer?

That is the kind of thinking I was referencing when talking about I'd be for making a bigger move.

Just seems less risky...what if the Ish addition doesn't improve the value of Noel? What if Ish gets hurt? Many things can go wrong in this deal even if the pump/dump is the plan.

To me, Noel and 2 nice 2nd rounders is simply going to a better package. Unless Noel just takes off and plays a totally different game the next 50 games...teams, smart teams, know how good he currently is and what the potential is.

I guess I just don't see the upside of this move in realistic terms. Now, I full grant that if Ish somehow becomes a legit rotation player on a playoff team caliber player...and Noel takes a leap...then I'm wrong.

I just don't think that is realistic...especially the Ish part. I know you view Ish similar to how I view him as well.

You raise good points. I do see the flip side of the deal. But I see where you're coming from now.

[DMAVS41]

I think they want to go through the draft before making a move like that, depending on who they get it could greatly change the kinds of moves they'll make going forward.

My biggest concern is if they're letting Dantoni make ANY decisions, he's not good enough a coach to be running this team's offense. He's not a GM by any stretch either.

I agree that the best case scenario is waiting to see what happens. However, they, internally, should know which player they are going to move out of Noel or Okafor right now unless something drastic happens.

My argument is that Noel's perceived value is not quite as low as some here are suggesting...given that most teams, at least the smart teams, will understand the circumstances and see Noel for what he is...and his potential....especially on a real team with real NBA players and a role that makes sense for him.

In addition, my argument is that Noel plus 2 good 2nd round picks is likely a better package than a potentially improved Noel this summer.

Lastly, I'm not in favor of moving Noel. I think moving Okafor is a much smarter move given what I've seen of the two players and how the game is trending moving forward.

[dhsilv]

I agree that the best case scenario is waiting to see what happens. However, they, internally, should know which player they are going to move out of Noel or Okafor right now unless something drastic happens.

My argument is that Noel's perceived value is not quite as low as some here are suggesting...given that most teams, at least the smart teams, will understand the circumstances and see Noel for what he is...and his potential....especially on a real team with real NBA players and a role that makes sense for him.

In addition, my argument is that Noel plus 2 good 2nd round picks is likely a better package than a potentially improved Noel this summer.

Lastly, I'm not in favor of moving Noel. I think moving Okafor is a much smarter move given what I've seen of the two players and how the game is trending moving forward.

I do think the 76ers are higher on oak than most are, not sure why either. That said, I think the choice of offense or defense is a real choice one has to make based on other talent coming and due to timing on their contracts it will impact free agency the next few years depending on the direction they go.

That said I think both get traded....

[SwishSquared]

I agree that the best case scenario is waiting to see what happens. However, they, internally, should know which player they are going to move out of Noel or Okafor right now unless something drastic happens.

My argument is that Noel's perceived value is not quite as low as some here are suggesting...given that most teams, at least the smart teams, will understand the circumstances and see Noel for what he is...and his potential....especially on a real team with real NBA players and a role that makes sense for him.

In addition, my argument is that Noel plus 2 good 2nd round picks is likely a better package than a potentially improved Noel this summer.

Lastly, I'm not in favor of moving Noel. I think moving Okafor is a much smarter move given what I've seen of the two players and how the game is trending moving forward.If the 76ers luck out and land the #1 pick, I'd have very little problem if they move Okafor in a package to get Ingram. It's too early to claim this I guess, but I'd rather have a high end wing prospect than Okafor in this NBA. I think Ingram it's fair to call Ingram a better version of an 18 year old Giannis. Now, if he ever gets to current Giannis is a fair question.

[SwishSquared]

I agree that the best case scenario is waiting to see what happens. However, they, internally, should know which player they are going to move out of Noel or Okafor right now unless something drastic happens.

My argument is that Noel's perceived value is not quite as low as some here are suggesting...given that most teams, at least the smart teams, will understand the circumstances and see Noel for what he is...and his potential....especially on a real team with real NBA players and a role that makes sense for him.

In addition, my argument is that Noel plus 2 good 2nd round picks is likely a better package than a potentially improved Noel this summer.

Lastly, I'm not in favor of moving Noel. I think moving Okafor is a much smarter move given what I've seen of the two players and how the game is trending moving forward.I think smart teams would realize that 76ers have less leverage right now based on Noel's stats this year.

I guess I should clarify my statements that the value that they can extract out of Noel in a trade is likely less than what they'd get for Okafor right now based on leverage. Okafor can hide behind youth/inexperience for awful stats (advanced, mostly), but Noel can't as easily.

Noel's an easier guy to "plug & play," whereas you really have to commit to building around Okafor unless you plan to make him your 6th man (which is a viable option for the 76ers right now, but it'd kill his trade value imo).

EDIT: 100% agree you'd get more trading NN + those two second rounders regardless if NN ever improves.

[DoctorP]

Insidehoops Smith? WORD

[FKAri]

See Cavs fans? This is how you make a big move

[DMAVS41]

I think smart teams would realize that 76ers have less leverage right now based on Noel's stats this year.

I guess I should clarify my statements that the value that they can extract out of Noel in a trade is likely less than what they'd get for Okafor right now based on leverage. Okafor can hide behind youth/inexperience for awful stats (advanced, mostly), but Noel can't as easily.

Noel's an easier guy to "plug & play," whereas you really have to commit to building around Okafor unless you plan to make him your 6th man (which is a viable option for the 76ers right now, but it'd kill his trade value imo).

EDIT: 100% agree you'd get more trading NN + those two second rounders regardless if NN ever improves.

I agree Okafor has more trade value right now. I also agree that Noel is the better asset long term.

I agree about the leverage point, but I'm not sure how much that is really in play here for a guy like Noel. All the Sixers have to do is simply shop him...as long as they don't get themselves into a situation in which they have to move Noel...I don't see why other teams would think they have a ton of leverage here.

Yes...that is why this deal is bad imo. Even with the pump/dump part of the Ish trade...2 2nd round picks and Noel is simply going to be more valuable than a slightly improved Noel later this year or in the summer.

Teams already know what kind of player he is...

But, we are in agreement...I don't think moving Noel makes a ton of sense unless they have a very specific and realistic team in mind to put around Okafor.

[SwishSquared]

I agree Okafor has more trade value right now. I also agree that Noel is the better asset long term.

I agree about the leverage point, but I'm not sure how much that is really in play here for a guy like Noel. All the Sixers have to do is simply shop him...as long as they don't get themselves into a situation in which they have to move Noel...I don't see why other teams would think they have a ton of leverage here.

Yes...that is why this deal is bad imo. Even with the pump/dump part of the Ish trade...2 2nd round picks and Noel is simply going to be more valuable than a slightly improved Noel later this year or in the summer.

Teams already know what kind of player he is...

But, we are in agreement...I don't think moving Noel makes a ton of sense unless they have a very specific and realistic team in mind to put around Okafor.I guess the leverage point is that they can point to the drop in stats on offense and defense, even if that's due to playing at PF and being injured. They can also say he lost his starting job to Okafor, etc. I don't agree with any of it, but I can certainly see it coming up during negotiations.

I guess they could try to build up value of both Okafor and Noel and hope to get more teams involved in bidding for both of them during the next draft and free agency. I'll be surprised if both are on the roster next opening night. I do think though the only way Noel gets traded if Embiid is totally healthy though, which I think is even 2 years away from being a real conversation.

Ainge low balls everybody, but on draft day he offered Smart + picks for Noel + #3, which is LOL worthy. Noel's value is definitely better than that- maybe his value may spike during this draft, which is considered weak in stars but deep in rotation guys.

[DMAVS41]

I guess the leverage point is that they can point to the drop in stats on offense and defense, even if that's due to playing at PF and being injured. They can also say he lost his starting job to Okafor, etc. I don't agree with any of it, but I can certainly see it coming up during negotiations.

I guess they could try to build up value of both Okafor and Noel and hope to get more teams involved in bidding for both of them during the next draft and free agency. I'll be surprised if both are on the roster next opening night. I do think though the only way Noel gets traded if Embiid is totally healthy though, which I think is even 2 years away from being a real conversation.

Ainge low balls everybody, but on draft day he offered Smart + picks for Noel + #3, which is LOL worthy. Noel's value is definitely better than that- maybe his value may spike during this draft, which is considered weak in stars but deep in rotation guys.

I think the easy answer for the Sixers is to just keep Noel. I mean...yea...trade him if you get something great, but there is no need to really move him if you aren't getting +EV.

It's like owning a home in a great market and you don't need to sell, but you might sell for the right price.

And I know I keep repeating it, but this is why those 2 2nd round picks have real value for me. If you are going to move Okafor and or Noel...being able to throw in those 2 picks could really sweeten the pot for a team that could cause them to give up more to get Noel. Or perhaps get going a 3 team deal that could allow the Sixers to get back even more by including a team looking to shed for picks.

Regardless, the Sixers are fascinating...my only worry is the often the reason good plans don't work is because of lack of patience. And this looks like the beginning of maybe unraveling a long term plan before it had a chance to actually work.

[GOBB]

I think the easy answer for the Sixers is to just keep Noel. I mean...yea...trade him if you get something great, but there is no need to really move him if you aren't getting +EV.

It's like owning a home in a great market and you don't need to sell, but you might sell for the right price.

And I know I keep repeating it, but this is why those 2 2nd round picks have real value for me. If you are going to move Okafor and or Noel...being able to throw in those 2 picks could really sweeten the pot for a team that could cause them to give up more to get Noel. Or perhaps get going a 3 team deal that could allow the Sixers to get back even more by including a team looking to shed for picks.

Regardless, the Sixers are fascinating...my only worry is the often the reason good plans don't work is because of lack of patience. And this looks like the beginning of maybe unraveling a long term plan before it had a chance to actually work.

Thats my fear in general with the addition of Jerry. I mean I understand he can repair relationships with agents/gms that Hinkie may have soured. But apart of me is wonder if he will try to speed up the process? And adding Antoni to the mix how much say will he have as he tries to implement his system? He says he isnt there to step on Brett Brown toes, but as a fan who notices Jerry/Antoni relationship in Phx and the fact he is only here because of Jerry? Why should I not believe he may not push for moves he feels would help which conflicts with Hinkies plan?

As a Sixers fan I'm probably in the group who has patience. I've seen dog years here for a longer period than 3 Hinkie tank seasons. And I've seen NO HOPE during those years where it took a lucky chance at us drafting Iverson or it couldve been doom and gloom continued. I want to see it unfold and it's unfortunate Embiid got injured.

Which is why i addressed the other poster when he said pay 3 times what Sixers initially offered Ish Smith this summer. To me it's like yes I'm aware we have the money. But why overpay that much for a backup PG at best PG? Hinkie wouldnt do it and as a fan I'm glad he doesn't think that way.

But back to the bold, that is my fear. So we shall see

[Jameerthefear]

Just glanced back in to this thread, I really ****ing shit on GOBB in here :oldlol: Embarrassing for him.

[sammichoffate]

6 Pages of discussion over ISH ****ING SMITH :oldlol: :banana:
http://inspirationalbasketball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/insidehoops.jpeg
http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/e.69AOc82KlUFi1a8sPNPg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztpbD1wbGFuZTtxPTc1O3c9NjAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en/person/Ysports/ish-smith-basketball-headshot-photo.jpg

[GOBB]

6 Pages of discussion over ISH ****ING SMITH :oldlol: :banana:

True, I had to laugh at that myself. Felt like iverson for a second "we talkin bout ish smith? ish smith? no one else. ish man?". But convo really turned for the better then dmavs, swish, chocolate, dhis entered. A little more than Ish Smith.

[SwishSquared]

I think the easy answer for the Sixers is to just keep Noel. I mean...yea...trade him if you get something great, but there is no need to really move him if you aren't getting +EV.

It's like owning a home in a great market and you don't need to sell, but you might sell for the right price.

And I know I keep repeating it, but this is why those 2 2nd round picks have real value for me. If you are going to move Okafor and or Noel...being able to throw in those 2 picks could really sweeten the pot for a team that could cause them to give up more to get Noel. Or perhaps get going a 3 team deal that could allow the Sixers to get back even more by including a team looking to shed for picks.

Regardless, the Sixers are fascinating...my only worry is the often the reason good plans don't work is because of lack of patience. And this looks like the beginning of maybe unraveling a long term plan before it had a chance to actually work.I'm definitely in the camp of keeping Noel and ultimately trading Okafor. I only initially brought that up since I think Noel's trade value was at its lowest point recently.

And 2nd round picks of this nature are great for greasing the wheels on a trade. Didn't Houston trade like 4 second round picks last year to land Brewer and some other rotation guy that was useful? I'd also argue that these two seconds hold more value than the incoming OKC pick, not simply because 2 > 1 but the contractual obligations involved.

If Colangelo improves the team too much mid-season, it's a disaster. They need to land Simmons or Ingram in this upcoming draft. If he starts spending assets haphazardly next summer, then it could blow up in their faces. Hinkie's draft record is TBD imo (I truly think he made a fit pick in MCW over a guy like Giannis in 2013, but I was super high on him and low on MCW that draft) because we haven't seen Saric or Embiid yet. But the man had a big streak of winning trades, perhaps the best trade record in the league.

Philly is like a case study to me- I actually want to see them land a superstar just to see how well they build around him. I know you and me both lament the job done by New Orleans. I don't think Hinkie would make the same mistakes. Colangelo/MDA might, which could be a shame and waste of 2+ seasons basically.

[DMAVS41]

I'm definitely in the camp of keeping Noel and ultimately trading Okafor. I only initially brought that up since I think Noel's trade value was at its lowest point recently.

And 2nd round picks of this nature are great for greasing the wheels on a trade. Didn't Houston trade like 4 second round picks last year to land Brewer and some other rotation guy that was useful? I'd also argue that these two seconds hold more value than the incoming OKC pick, not simply because 2 > 1 but the contractual obligations involved.

If Colangelo improves the team too much mid-season, it's a disaster. They need to land Simmons or Ingram in this upcoming draft. If he starts spending assets haphazardly next summer, then it could blow up in their faces. Hinkie's draft record is TBD imo (I truly think he made a fit pick in MCW over a guy like Giannis in 2013, but I was super high on him and low on MCW that draft) because we haven't seen Saric or Embiid yet. But the man had a big streak of winning trades, perhaps the best trade record in the league.

Philly is like a case study to me- I actually want to see them land a superstar just to see how well they build around him. I know you and me both lament the job done by New Orleans. I don't think Hinkie would make the same mistakes. Colangelo/MDA might, which could be a shame and waste of 2+ seasons basically.

Yea, they are in it now...you can't change course when you are finally about to see the real fruits of the labor. This trade is not a good sign unfortunately...

We'll see...

[SwishSquared]

Which is why i addressed the other poster when he said pay 3 times what Sixers initially offered Ish Smith this summer. To me it's like yes I'm aware we have the money. But why overpay that much for a backup PG at best PG?I'm pretty sure this was directed at me b/c I said to pay 3x the minimum for 1 year. Here's why in my opinion: paying Ish Smith $3.5-4M this year only & keeping these 2nd rounders is better than trading for him a few months after letting him walk for nothing.

As I said before, it's speculation but I think Smith was offered some version of a "Hinkie Special," which he didn't want. I think if he got a more favorable contract, he wouldn't have been compelled to join a Wizards team on a non-guaranteed deal when they had 0 open roster spots.

I mean, it became so clear the FO made a mistake in assembling a PG rotation that they traded for a 3rd string PG. Did anybody think IC & McConnell would hold down the fort while Marshall (at best 2nd string PG) and Wroten (fringe NBA player) were injured for 20+ games? I said it before but that's a reckless plan when you know Noel needs to be spoonfed by a guy who gets penetration in the PnR. Canaan can't get into the paint and McConnell was an undrafted rookie for a reason.

That's why I thought they should have made more of an effort to have a healthy, actual NBA-caliber PG on opening night. Whether that's Corey Joseph (I def would have overpaid for him), Lin, Ish Smith, etc, it would have accomplished the goal of giving your two star bigs a legit PG.

True, I had to laugh at that myself. Felt like iverson for a second "we talkin bout ish smith? ish smith? no one else. ish man?". But convo really turned for the better then dmavs, swish, chocolate, dhis entered. A little more than Ish Smith.This has been a good conversation thread and def more than just Ish Smith. Honestly, most of ISH doesn't know enough about the 76ers or don't care to learn. Good to be able to have a real conversation about a team like this.

[dhsilv]

I'm pretty sure this was directed at me b/c I said to pay 3x the minimum for 1 year. Here's why in my opinion: paying Ish Smith $3.5-4M this year only & keeping these 2nd rounders is better than trading for him a few months after letting him walk for nothing.

As I said before, it's speculation but I think Smith was offered some version of a "Hinkie Special," which he didn't want. I think if he got a more favorable contract, he wouldn't have been compelled to join a Wizards team on a non-guaranteed deal when they had 0 open roster spots.

I mean, it became so clear the FO made a mistake in assembling a PG rotation that they traded for a 3rd string PG. Did anybody think IC & McConnell would hold down the fort while Marshall (at best 2nd string PG) and Wroten (fringe NBA player) were injured for 20+ games? I said it before but that's a reckless plan when you know Noel needs to be spoonfed by a guy who gets penetration in the PnR. Canaan can't get into the paint and McConnell was an undrafted rookie for a reason.

That's why I thought they should have made more of an effort to have a healthy, actual NBA-caliber PG on opening night. Whether that's Corey Joseph (I def would have overpaid for him), Lin, Ish Smith, etc, it would have accomplished the goal of giving your two star bigs a legit PG.
This has been a good conversation thread and def more than just Ish Smith. Honestly, most of ISH doesn't know enough about the 76ers or don't care to learn. Good to be able to have a real conversation about a team like this.

Has any team ever had more incentive to tank than this year? They HAVE to finish worse than the lakers to help their chances of getting the laker's pick and there's a legit franchise player at the top of the draft. The 76ers need to lose, I think the whole 1 loss thing was just too politically an issue and they caved here. Be it new leaders or what, but this was a year to TANK and TANK HARD.

[SwishSquared]

Has any team ever had more incentive to tank than this year? They HAVE to finish worse than the lakers to help their chances of getting the laker's pick and there's a legit franchise player at the top of the draft. The 76ers need to lose, I think the whole 1 loss thing was just too politically an issue and they caved here. Be it new leaders or what, but this was a year to TANK and TANK HARD.I'm not advocating for winning 30 games. I do think though that the team lost hope + gave up in more games this season than they did at this point a year ago.

They have to land a top 2 pick, and honestly, they kinda need to get the worst record. If they leapfrog LAL, it's a disaster. Hinkie ensured the team would be at a huge disadvantage until Marshall returned from injury.

I just think you can lose a bunch with a slightly improved point differential and can give Noel a little more help in the PnR. Maybe it was the injuries, but his activity level dropped way below what it was last season IMO. He seemed spry vs. Phoenix at least, which is a good sign.

I say this as somebody who advocates for Noel being the long term starter at C for this team (assuming Embiid can never handle that load) and as somebody who's fine with the 76ers approach to team building. The league provides an incentive to tank and the FO is exploiting it.

[dhsilv]

I'm not advocating for winning 30 games. I do think though that the team lost hope + gave up in more games this season than they did at this point a year ago.

They have to land a top 2 pick, and honestly, they kinda need to get the worst record. If they leapfrog LAL, it's a disaster. Hinkie ensured the team would be at a huge disadvantage until Marshall returned from injury.

I just think you can lose a bunch with a slightly improved point differential and can give Noel a little more help in the PnR. Maybe it was the injuries, but his activity level dropped way below what it was last season IMO. He seemed spry vs. Phoenix at least, which is a good sign.

I say this as somebody who advocates for Noel being the long term starter at C for this team (assuming Embiid can never handle that load) and as somebody who's fine with the 76ers approach to team building. The league provides an incentive to tank and the FO is exploiting it.

The thing is the lakers are SOOO bad, this move might be enough to make up the difference. This team has been in a lot of games, a player with a PER at 16 is a noticeable improvement, now if he keeps that up is unlikely but still.

[DMAVS41]

The thing is the lakers are SOOO bad, this move might be enough to make up the difference. This team has been in a lot of games, a player with a PER at 16 is a noticeable improvement, now if he keeps that up is unlikely but still.

Yep. They are in another game right now...Brown gets them to play really hard every night as well.

There is a real danger of them winning more than the Lakers.

And that would be the ultimate disaster...waste 2 picks and lose out on the best odds for the first pick and have worse odds of keeping the Lakers pick.

Ugh...what a nightmare scenario that would be.

[imdaman99]

Wow Ish Smith keeping them in the game. Future MVP? :applause:

[DMAVS41]

LOL...Ish for 3...then Ish to Noel for the go ahead lob.

[imdaman99]

Why the hell is Nik Stauskas getting that shot? Dude is scoreless. I swear this fcking franchise is taking tanking seriously :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Why the hell is Nik Stauskas getting that shot? Dude is scoreless. I swear this fcking franchise is taking tanking seriously :facepalm

Great loss though...played well and lost. Exactly what the Sixers want.

[dhsilv]

Why the hell is Nik Stauskas getting that shot? Dude is scoreless. I swear this fcking franchise is taking tanking seriously :facepalm

Ok really...we could mention that Kobe is playing for the lakers and he's god ****ing awful.

But really the bulls post jordan was were a far far far far worse tanker and nobody said shit.

[dhsilv]

Yep. They are in another game right now...Brown gets them to play really hard every night as well.

There is a real danger of them winning more than the Lakers.

And that would be the ultimate disaster...waste 2 picks and lose out on the best odds for the first pick and have worse odds of keeping the Lakers pick.

Ugh...what a nightmare scenario that would be.

Honestly love their coach. He's going to be great. That team is honestly NOT terrible to watch as much as people who don't watch them say otherwise.

[SwishSquared]

Honestly love their coach. He's going to be great. That team is honestly NOT terrible to watch as much as people who don't watch them say otherwise.I look forward to watching their games sometimes to see them play hard, no joke.

There's something endearing about the team and you add in the FO's strategy and the result is a recipe that fascinates me.

These are the kinds of losses that are good for the Sixers, if that makes sense. Stay competitive, give your guys confidence, and lose it down the stretch. Once Okafor returns, I think it'll help the tank. His D is bad enough that playing him 25-30mpg will make it tougher for them to win (any rookie, let alone a big, is going to struggle at times and is to be expected).

I hope for the 76ers' future sake that they get the #1 pick this year. They need a bone thrown their way by not having a team jump them again.

[chocolatethunder]

You are under-rating the value of good 2nd round picks around the league. Draymond Green was just recently a 2nd round pick. They aren't close to worthless at all.

Like I just said...the only way this trade can be defended is if the plan is to pump and dump Noel this summer.

Now, I'd still say I don't like it because that is an overpay for Ish and I'd rather make a bigger move than trash 2 good 2nd rounders just to pump and dump a player.

Seems shortsighted and lacking of equal value...even if that is the plan.

If the Sixers were short on picks over the next few years I would be inclined to agree with that. However they have potentially four first round picks this year and for every Draymond Green there are a plenty of dudes who will never get past a summer league roster. I don't think it's defended by dumping Noel this summer. The team just plays better with him on the floor. They need to move the ball and need someone who can get guys their shots where they need them. Yes it's a somewhat of an overpay but we're talking about a team stacked with picks, not the Nets. Hinkie made a mistake and hopefully having to give up two picks for Ish Smith (which is mind boggling of course) will make him rethink his Morey thought process next time. Even with Marshall, there was literally no good reason not to keep Smith. He was so far from cost prohibitive it was a joke. There was no reason other than he wanted to be slick and out think himself. So Hinkie can suck it on this one and take an L.

[DMAVS41]

If the Sixers were short on picks over the next few years I would be inclined to agree with that. However they have potentially four first round picks this year and for every Draymond Green there are a plenty of dudes who will never get past a summer league roster. I don't think it's defended by dumping Noel this summer. The team just plays better with him on the floor. They need to move the ball and need someone who can get guys their shots where they need them. Yes it's a somewhat of an overpay but we're talking about a team stacked with picks, not the Nets. Hinkie made a mistake and hopefully having to give up two picks for Ish Smith (which is mind boggling of course) will make him rethink his Morey thought process next time. Even with Marshall, there was literally no good reason not to keep Smith. He was so far from cost prohibitive it was a joke. There was no reason other than he wanted to be slick and out think himself. So Hinkie can suck it on this one and take an L.


You seem to be arguing a different point.

We all agree that Ish makes them better. Anyone that followed them last year knows this.

We also all agree that Hinkie messed up by not just keeping him last season...although the Marshall injury has to be mentioned.

However, what we...or at least I am saying is that Ish isn't worth 2 good 2nd round picks regardless. It doesn't matter that they have a ton of picks. I'll say it again...you can trade them! You don't have to keep them. The Sixers are clearly going to have make a big trade at some point anyway. Being able to include 2 really good 2nd round picks is never a bad thing...especially with how the sell is easy right now by just referencing Draymond Green.

The trade makes little sense regardless of the trade scenarios though. Because Noel plus 2 good 2nd rounders is simply going to get more than an improved Noel because of Ish. Well, unless other teams are even dumber. But I don't think they are going to trade Noel regardless...or I should say...I don't think Hinkie would want to.

That is the real problem...Hinkie was making his "own meal" and he's been working on it for 3 years...and just as a lot of his work was going to start really paying off...they brought in two new cooks to change it.

And that is a really bad idea in my opinion. I don't think it's bad to add some respected voices, but this trade is not a good sign. It's not the kind of move the Sixers should be making.

Is it the end of the world? Of course not...and if they end up keeping Ish on a decent deal to be a 3rd guard ultimately type player...it's even better.

However, if Ish were to leave again...and they ended up jumping the Lakers...it would be an utter disaster.

Lose 2 picks for nothing, then screw yourselves on your own pick and keeping the Lakers picks.

This reminds me of the Magic situation a few years ago. I was screaming about how stupid it was to keep Afflalo on that team throughout the 14 season...because what was the upside? He's adding wins you don't want and his value decreases in trades as he gets close to an expiring contract.

The responses were that the lottery is all luck, but not only is his false, you are in control of giving yourself better odds. Yes, of course, a team can just get lucky, but that isn't how one should at life or business. You want to give yourself the best odds to get what you want..one can control that. Just because you can get lucky or unlucky does not mean that somehow devalues making +EV decisions.

So, yea...the Sixers could leapfrog the Lakers and still get the first pick, but that isn't a +EV move. They are hurting their chances by doing so.

I bring that up because this team is not the Sixers team of the future. It's going to added to dramatically, people will get traded...it's just not the "young core" of the future Sixers. If it were...then doing stuff like this makes more sense as the picks become less valuable than building chemistry and learning how to win together do. So just like Afflalo wasn't part of the core moving forward...it was stupid to keep him for a whole year when all he does is add wins and hurt his own trade value by only being able to play in 1 playoffs...rather than 2 before he expires.

This stuff is complicated and requires a lot of thought...if anyone is just looking at a trade in these scenarios as..."what makes this team better right now"...that is a rather big mistake in my opinion. Especially as far down the road as the Sixers currently are in the process.

[chocolatethunder]

You seem to be arguing a different point.

We all agree that Ish makes them better. Anyone that followed them last year knows this.

We also all agree that Hinkie messed up by not just keeping him last season...although the Marshall injury has to be mentioned.

However, what we...or at least I am saying is that Ish isn't worth 2 good 2nd round picks regardless. It doesn't matter that they have a ton of picks. I'll say it again...you can trade them! You don't have to keep them. The Sixers are clearly going to have make a big trade at some point anyway. Being able to include 2 really good 2nd round picks is never a bad thing...especially with how the sell is easy right now by just referencing Draymond Green.

The trade makes little sense regardless of the trade scenarios though. Because Noel plus 2 good 2nd rounders is simply going to get more than an improved Noel because of Ish. Well, unless other teams are even dumber. But I don't think they are going to trade Noel regardless...or I should say...I don't think Hinkie would want to.

That is the real problem...Hinkie was making his "own meal" and he's been working on it for 3 years...and just as a lot of his work was going to start really paying off...they brought in two new cooks to change it.

And that is a really bad idea in my opinion. I don't think it's bad to add some respected voices, but this trade is not a good sign. It's not the kind of move the Sixers should be making.

Is it the end of the world? Of course not...and if they end up keeping Ish on a decent deal to be a 3rd guard ultimately type player...it's even better.

However, if Ish were to leave again...and they ended up jumping the Lakers...it would be an utter disaster.

Lose 2 picks for nothing, then screw yourselves on your own pick and keeping the Lakers picks.

This reminds me of the Magic situation a few years ago. I was screaming about how stupid it was to keep Afflalo on that team throughout the 14 season...because what was the upside? He's adding wins you don't want and his value decreases in trades as he gets close to an expiring contract.

The responses were that the lottery is all luck, but not only is his false, you are in control of giving yourself better odds. Yes, of course, a team can just get lucky, but that isn't how one should at life or business. You want to give yourself the best odds to get what you want..one can control that. Just because you can get lucky or unlucky does not mean that somehow devalues making +EV decisions.

So, yea...the Sixers could leapfrog the Lakers and still get the first pick, but that isn't a +EV move. They are hurting their chances by doing so.

I bring that up because this team is not the Sixers team of the future. It's going to added to dramatically, people will get traded...it's just not the "young core" of the future Sixers. If it were...then doing stuff like this makes more sense as the picks become less valuable than building chemistry and learning how to win together do. So just like Afflalo wasn't part of the core moving forward...it was stupid to keep him for a whole year when all he does is add wins and hurt his own trade value by only being able to play in 1 playoffs...rather than 2 before he expires.

This stuff is complicated and requires a lot of thought...if anyone is just looking at a trade in these scenarios as..."what makes this team better right now"...that is a rather big mistake in my opinion. Especially as far down the road as the Sixers currently are in the process.

I agree with everything you're saying but I just don't care. I don't care because weather they are trying to make Noel look better to trade him or they just want him to play better, I don't care. I understand what you mean about not trading picks but sometimes you have to say "situation x is worth two picks to me for this reason." Also, I am waiting to see what this move means for Hinkie. It could be that Colangelo/MDA made this move happen or it could be that Hinkie said "shit I ****ed up and I need to make up for this mistake because I need to show my bosses that I'm willing to admit a mistake", I really don't know. I have a hard time thinking that he will end up leaving if he gets time in philly becuase he's never really played much anywhere at all. I'm also not worrying about their record. They suck, and being the worst doesn't guarantee you the best pick. Historically it doesn't even happen very often. I have no desire to "win now" and know this isn't the team of the future. None of this is complicated to me at all. Also, Ish Smith hardly will turn any team into a win now team, even this awful excuse for a team. I agree that this could be a bad sign in terms of speeding up hinkies process. Maybe it's just making up for a mistake or maybe it is the end of the process and that is something I would think is a grave mistake. In another thread I complained about Hinkie a little and said that while I believe in what he was doing, I felt that this year had been a disaster and that he was ruining relationships in the league and he should have kept smith. ThT needed some damage control and maybe this is it and nothing more. I'm ok with losing those picks and I suspect that he will take on some salary and get one of them back or something more. The season isn't over and I'm willing to reserve judgement on all of it until I can see more.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with everything you're saying but I just don't care. I don't care because weather they are trying to make Noel look better to trade him or they just want him to play better, I don't care. I understand what you mean about not trading picks but sometimes you have to say "situation x is worth two picks to me for this reason." Also, I am waiting to see what this move means for Hinkie. It could be that Colangelo/MDA made this move happen or it could be that Hinkie said "shit I ****ed up and I need to make up for this mistake because I need to show my bosses that I'm willing to admit a mistake", I really don't know. I have a hard time thinking that he will end up leaving if he gets time in philly becuase he's never really played much anywhere at all. I'm also not worrying about their record. They suck, and being the worst doesn't guarantee you the best pick. Historically it doesn't even happen very often. I have no desire to "win now" and know this isn't the team of the future. None of this is complicated to me at all. Also, Ish Smith hardly will turn any team into a win now team, even this awful excuse for a team. I agree that this could be a bad sign in terms of speeding up hinkies process. Maybe it's just making up for a mistake or maybe it is the end of the process and that is something I would think is a grave mistake. In another thread I complained about Hinkie a little and said that while I believe in what he was doing, I felt that this year had been a disaster and that he was ruining relationships in the league and he should have kept smith. ThT needed some damage control and maybe this is it and nothing more. I'm ok with losing those picks and I suspect that he will take on some salary and get one of them back or something more. The season isn't over and I'm willing to reserve judgement on all of it until I can see more.


Yea, but that is kind of my point. You either see a long term plan through like this or you don't. In life, business, management, investing...a large reason a lot of long term plans/ideas don't work is because people lack the patience and perseverance to see it through.

I'm not saying any trade was a bad idea. I just don't think this trade was a good trade. It's certainly not the worst trade ever...and it likely will be kind of a non event, but it's more about the philosophy of the move.

We all know Okafor and Noel won't work together long term. We also all know the Sixers are going to have to trade some of their picks (like they just did) in the coming years as there won't be enough rosters spots assuming they actually use some cap room and sign some free agents (which is a lock now with Mike/Jerry)...

So...why not put together a bigger package and get something real that isn't a backup pg at best that might be gone in 6 months?

I know it's been a rough 2.5 years now, but it was part of the plan...and this was the year in which you really have the chance to see the huge benefit...and next year as well depending on how picks convey.

Like I said...huge mistake? Nah, just a bad trade. The real trick is going to be figuring out what to do with Okafor and Noel...and then proceed by building a solid team by adding some free agents this summer imo.

In my opinion, Noel is the guy to keep. I think someone made the comparison to Tyson earlier...he's certainly a good comp offensively...having a good screen setter and hard rolling big that has the potential to be pretty versatile defensively is better suited for where the game is going.

I can see an elite offense and defense with Noel playing 35 minutes a game in the future.

It's hard for me to envision an elite defense with Okafor playing 35 minutes a game...and I don't think his offense is good enough to make up for that...well, unless he were to add a 3 point shot.

[chocolatethunder]

Yea, but that is kind of my point. You either see a long term plan through like this or you don't. In life, business, management, investing...a large reason a lot of long term plans/ideas don't work is because people lack the patience and perseverance to see it through.

I'm not saying any trade was a bad idea. I just don't think this trade was a good trade. It's certainly not the worst trade ever...and it likely will be kind of a non event, but it's more about the philosophy of the move.

We all know Okafor and Noel won't work together long term. We also all know the Sixers are going to have to trade some of their picks (like they just did) in the coming years as there won't be enough rosters spots assuming they actually use some cap room and sign some free agents (which is a lock now with Mike/Jerry)...

So...why not put together a bigger package and get something real that isn't a backup pg at best that might be gone in 6 months?

I know it's been a rough 2.5 years now, but it was part of the plan...and this was the year in which you really have the chance to see the huge benefit...and next year as well depending on how picks convey.

Like I said...huge mistake? Nah, just a bad trade. The real trick is going to be figuring out what to do with Okafor and Noel...and then proceed by building a solid team by adding some free agents this summer imo.

In my opinion, Noel is the guy to keep. I think someone made the comparison to Tyson earlier...he's certainly a good comp offensively...having a good screen setter and hard role big that has the potential to be pretty versatile defensively is better suited for where the game is going.

I can see an elite offense and defense with Noel playing 35 minutes a game in the future.

It's hard for me to envision an elite defense with Okafor playing 35 minutes a game...and I don't think his offense is good enough to make up for that...well, unless he were to add a 3 point shot.

I agree that you keep Noel, you don't have to sell me. I think Okafor was a bad pick. In fact, for all his analytics, I don't really find myself wowed with Hinkies drafting. What he is great at is stockpiling picks and winning in trades. I've not seen much evidence that he's a great drafter. Not to say that he's awful, he's just pretty average at that to me. I don't see any point to drafting Okafor. You either trade back and grab Mudiay, or draft Porzingis there. For all of the scouting Hinkie does, I'm frustrated that he missed on Porzingis. Anyway, what im saying is that I dunno how much a deviation from the plan this is. Maybe it is maybe it isn't. We're going to have to wait and see. It's important that you don't adhere to something to a fault. Maybe he did say "oh shit I ****ed up I had better overpay a little now to show that I can admit when I'm wrong" or whatever. Nothing is perfect ever. Sometimes you mess up. This dude is a first time GM and maybe this is Colangelo or maybe it's just him making a mistake. I would be extremely disappointed if colangelo and Harris decided to derail the rebuild right now. The thing is, shit did kind of go sideways this year and something needed to be done. If giving up two seconds for Ish Smith ends up being the worst thing that happens in this rebuild, I'll take it. Back to okafor for a second. I don't see how that pick makes sense. He's never going to be fast and never going to become a great rebounder or defender. So in taking him you're not really going to be able to increase his value. To me, the more he plays, the less that he seems valuable. And now with his off the court billshit (which in reality to me is meaningless becuase he's a kid) his value is low. So again, I'd rather risk with Mudiay who may end up being awful but he at least has the potential to be a great defender and pretty good scorer. Much better risk and investment to me. He's not really my kind of PG but he fits with the new style of PG. I'd rather have him than okafor and certainly would rather have Porzingis.

[SwishSquared]

I think Philly messed up drafting Okafor in terms of roster construction. Porzingis or trading down further would have been the right move imo. The combo of KP and Noel on defense provides a ton of length and rim protection. Not to mention they'd work on O. However, Philly couldn't trot out such a bad PG rotation since KP gets more spoondfed than Okafor by quite a bit.

The good news for Philly is that Skal is looking a lot worse than Jah did in college, Bender can't come over for 2 years, and Simmons is a lock for a top 2 pick right now. So, this draft is short on high end big man prospects. Ellenson could be good, but is slated at #8 on DX right now. Maybe Okafor's value will be really high on draft night.

DMAVS41 mentioned this earlier, but Philly should have a clue as to whether they want NN or Okafor long term. Even if they want Nerlens, they may as well keep bringing him off the bench in hopes of boosting Okafor's value. Okafor isn't as conducive to winning as NN right now, so he helps the tank and racks up counting stats to make himself look better than he actually is. Okafor has better hands & touch right now than NN, so maybe running PnR with Smith could help him get easy buckets.

This has been 2 games against struggling teams, but Noel is shooting 14-16 from the field while playing majority of his mins with Ish Smith. His TS% is up like 35 percentage points (unsustainable for sure). Smith is a 3rd string NBA PG. If Philly lands a high level perimeter playmaker via draft/trade/FA, Noel would look a whole lot better on offense on a more consistent basis.

This trade certainly helped perk up Noel, which they really needed to do. Even if you want him long term, you need to give him confidence and reignite his desire. I would prefer to have ensured he had a suitable, healthy PnR partner over the summer and they gave up too much for a guy like Smith.

I do think though this means that they could end the year with 2 really desirable big man prospects going into a draft perceived as weak in quantity of high end talent. Who knows which players are disgruntled over the summer and want out- Philly will be 1st in line for any player not named DMC.

[DMAVS41]

I agree that you keep Noel, you don't have to sell me. I think Okafor was a bad pick. In fact, for all his analytics, I don't really find myself wowed with Hinkies drafting. What he is great at is stockpiling picks and winning in trades. I've not seen much evidence that he's a great drafter. Not to say that he's awful, he's just pretty average at that to me. I don't see any point to drafting Okafor. You either trade back and grab Mudiay, or draft Porzingis there. For all of the scouting Hinkie does, I'm frustrated that he missed on Porzingis. Anyway, what im saying is that I dunno how much a deviation from the plan this is. Maybe it is maybe it isn't. We're going to have to wait and see. It's important that you don't adhere to something to a fault. Maybe he did say "oh shit I ****ed up I had better overpay a little now to show that I can admit when I'm wrong" or whatever. Nothing is perfect ever. Sometimes you mess up. This dude is a first time GM and maybe this is Colangelo or maybe it's just him making a mistake. I would be extremely disappointed if colangelo and Harris decided to derail the rebuild right now. The thing is, shit did kind of go sideways this year and something needed to be done. If giving up two seconds for Ish Smith ends up being the worst thing that happens in this rebuild, I'll take it. Back to okafor for a second. I don't see how that pick makes sense. He's never going to be fast and never going to become a great rebounder or defender. So in taking him you're not really going to be able to increase his value. To me, the more he plays, the less that he seems valuable. And now with his off the court billshit (which in reality to me is meaningless becuase he's a kid) his value is low. So again, I'd rather risk with Mudiay who may end up being awful but he at least has the potential to be a great defender and pretty good scorer. Much better risk and investment to me. He's not really my kind of PG but he fits with the new style of PG. I'd rather have him than okafor and certainly would rather have Porzingis.

I agree it's not a big deal overall. But it's bad enough to mention...considering the state of the team.

That is the kind of deal you make when you are a contender looking to solidify the roster imo.

[chocolatethunder]

I think Philly messed up drafting Okafor in terms of roster construction. Porzingis or trading down further would have been the right move imo. The combo of KP and Noel on defense provides a ton of length and rim protection. Not to mention they'd work on O. However, Philly couldn't trot out such a bad PG rotation since KP gets more spoondfed than Okafor by quite a bit.

The good news for Philly is that Skal is looking a lot worse than Jah did in college, Bender can't come over for 2 years, and Simmons is a lock for a top 2 pick right now. So, this draft is short on high end big man prospects. Ellenson could be good, but is slated at #8 on DX right now. Maybe Okafor's value will be really high on draft night.

DMAVS41 mentioned this earlier, but Philly should have a clue as to whether they want NN or Okafor long term. Even if they want Nerlens, they may as well keep bringing him off the bench in hopes of boosting Okafor's value. Okafor isn't as conducive to winning as NN right now, so he helps the tank and racks up counting stats to make himself look better than he actually is. Okafor has better hands & touch right now than NN, so maybe running PnR with Smith could help him get easy buckets.

This has been 2 games against struggling teams, but Noel is shooting 14-16 from the field while playing majority of his mins with Ish Smith. His TS% is up like 35 percentage points (unsustainable for sure). Smith is a 3rd string NBA PG. If Philly lands a high level perimeter playmaker via draft/trade/FA, Noel would look a whole lot better on offense on a more consistent basis.

This trade certainly helped perk up Noel, which they really needed to do. Even if you want him long term, you need to give him confidence and reignite his desire. I would prefer to have ensured he had a suitable, healthy PnR partner over the summer and they gave up too much for a guy like Smith.

I do think though this means that they could end the year with 2 really desirable big man prospects going into a draft perceived as weak in quantity of high end talent. Who knows which players are disgruntled over the summer and want out- Philly will be 1st in line for any player not named DMC.

I can't wait til okafor is gone and the pick just made no sense. Although Noel will never be a 20ppg scorer, alongside someone like Embiid, he would look good on both sides of the ball.

I really don't see how you can fool anyone into thinking that Okafor is anything other than what he is and to me his value was highest on draft day and it has only gone down since then.

I'm not interested in Skal or any other big man. I would prefer a guard if Simmons isn't available. I'll just let the NCAA season play out and see who plays their way into the lottery. This is a very thin draft so far so we'll just have to wait and see.

[DMAVS41]

I can't wait til okafor is gone and the pick just made no sense. Although Noel will never be a 20ppg scorer, alongside someone like Embiid, he would look good on both sides of the ball.

I really don't see how you can fool anyone into thinking that Okafor is anything other than what he is and to me his value was highest on draft day and it has only gone down since then.

I'm not interested in Skal or any other big man. I would prefer a guard if Simmons isn't available. I'll just let the NCAA season play out and see who plays their way into the lottery. This is a very thin draft so far so we'll just have to wait and see.

Some team will give up something of note for Okafor...especially if the Sixers include another pick or something.

If Okafor was in this draft...he'd definitely be a top 5 pick imo....so it's not, by any means, crazy to get something real back for him...especially in terms of picks and or a young player.

[SwishSquared]

Some team will give up something of note for Okafor...especially if the Sixers include another pick or something.

If Okafor was in this draft...he'd definitely be a top 5 pick imo....so it's not, by any means, crazy to get something real back for him...especially in terms of picks and or a young player.He'd be #4 at worst right now imo based on how his college season played out. Simmons & Ingram would probably be 1/2. After that, you have Bender/Brown/Skal/Murray/etc, which all are underwhelming right now.

There's plenty of time for those guys to turn it around, but the drop off after Simmons/Ingram/Bender (if you like him) is pretty big.

I'd package Okafor + pick + even take back some contract to land one of Simmons/Ingram. If Philly, between its own pick and a trade package, lands both Simmons & Ingram, the process is a big success. That's a huge haul, especially if a trade for an established star never works out.

[DMAVS41]

He'd be #4 at worst right now imo based on how his college season played out. Simmons & Ingram would probably be 1/2. After that, you have Bender/Brown/Skal/Murray/etc, which all are underwhelming right now.

There's plenty of time for those guys to turn it around, but the drop off after Simmons/Ingram/Bender (if you like him) is pretty big.

I'd package Okafor + pick + even take back some contract to land one of Simmons/Ingram. If Philly, between its own pick and a trade package, lands both Simmons & Ingram, the process is a big success. That's a huge haul, especially if a trade for an established star never works out.

I doubt the Sixers can land Simmons with just Okafor and a pick...even if it's a good one.

Whether it's accurate or not...Simmons is being treated as a Lebron/Durant type prospect.

Ingram might be had depending on what happens, but he he is trending well it seems.

Love the idea though...that is what I would do. Throw Okafor and a first rounder trying to get into the top 3 of this draft.

Hopefully the Sixers just get the first pick on their own...tell everyone they are taking Simmons for sure. Then see what they can get for Okafor.

I actually like both Dunn and Murray...

If they came away from this draft with Simmons and turned Okafor into Dunn or Murray and a young player. It's great and everything makes sense. Add a couple free agents that make sense roster wise...start trying to win games and progress....like we talked about.

Jaylen Brown is nice as well...