What would Dr J's career and legacy be like if...

[dankok8]

... he played his whole career in the NBA instead of playing in the ABA till 1976?

Atlanta drafted him in 1972 so just assume he plays there until 1976 and then goes to the Sixers and the rest of his career plays out the same way it did.

In my opinion he would be nowhere near #15 all time which is where he's typically ranked if he played in the NBA his whole career. He won two titles and won three consecutive MVP's in the ABA and there is no chance in hell that would happen in the NBA.

Thoughts?

[LAZERUSS]

... he played his whole career in the NBA instead of playing in the ABA till 1976?

Atlanta drafted him in 1972 so just assume he plays there until 1976 and then goes to the Sixers and the rest of his career plays out the same way it did.

In my opinion he wouldn't be nowhere near the same ranking he is not which is around #15 all time if he played in the NBA his whole career. He won two ABA titles and won three consecutive MVP's and there is no change in hell that would happen in the NBA.

Thoughts?

It would have depended on what team(s) he played for. He nearly carried the Sixers to a title in his first NBA season.

[el gringos]

Yeah playing against Jackie moon and coffee black is the only reason anybody's heard of this guy.

[SouBeachTalents]

So if we transfer over all his ABA accomplishments into the NBA, his resume would look something like this

4 MVP's
2 Finals MVP's
12 All-NBA selections (9 First Teams)
6th all time in career scoring

Looks pretty damn similar, exactly the same actually, to a player a good amount of posters say isn't top 10 all time

[dankok8]

It would have depended on what team(s) he played for. He nearly carried the Sixers to a title in his first NBA season.

If he played for the Hawks until 1976 since they drafted him.

[LAZERUSS]

If he played for the Hawks until 1976 since they drafted him.

It would have been interesting. After Wilt retired, the NBA became a much weaker league. By '75, we had 48-34 title team, and in '77 a 49-33 title winner. Hell, in '78 a 44-38 team won a ring. And even Seattle's 52-30 team was nothing to write home about.

And I think a peak Dr. J would have won some scoring titles, too. Albeit, it would have been tough against a prime McAdoo.

[Marchesk]

In my opinion he would be nowhere near #15 all time which is where he's typically ranked if he played in the NBA his whole career.

Yeah, he would be more like top 10. Question: what makes you sure the NBA was stronger than the ABA during that time period?

[MiseryCityTexas]

... he played his whole career in the NBA instead of playing in the ABA till 1976?

Atlanta drafted him in 1972 so just assume he plays there until 1976 and then goes to the Sixers and the rest of his career plays out the same way it did.

In my opinion he would be nowhere near #15 all time which is where he's typically ranked if he played in the NBA his whole career. He won two titles and won three consecutive MVP's in the ABA and there is no chance in hell that would happen in the NBA.

Thoughts?


Hawks lowkey had a squad in the early 70s. Doctor J woulda made some noise on the Hawks with Pete Maravich , Walt Bellamy, and Lou Hudson. That's a championship caliber team on paper.

[feyki]

Nothing changes .

ABA was top basketball organization of America and World at between 74-76 .

[MiseryCityTexas]

Nothing changes .

ABA was top basketball organization of America and World at between 74-76 .

David Thompson alone before the coke and Crack was better than the majority of shooting guards that played in the NBA before the merger. David Thompson was basically the D Wade of the 70s. Thompson's only competition from sg in the NBA during that time was probably Earl Monroe and Lou Hudson and DT was better than both of them. Hell, I'll even throw Fred Brown from Seattle in there too but David Thompson was better than him too. I'll even throw Phil Chenier in there, but he was better than him too. The Aba can't be that bad if Rick Barry left the NBA to play for them.

[MiseryCityTexas]

David Thompson's only competition at sg during the early to mid 70s was Lou Hudson, and George Gervin. Everyone else was beneath Thompson. I take back what I said about Lou. Lou was damn near just as good as Thompson as a player.

[MiseryCityTexas]

The Aba and NBa were damn near equals when it came to competition. I remember Bill Walton's Blazers had a team full of NBA players that beat a 76ers team that had two of the greatest ABA players of all time in Doctor J and George Mcginnis. 76ers lost the finals because the 76ers played streetball, while Bill Walton's Blazers played Duncan fundamental basketball long before the Spur's existence.

[feyki]

David Thompson alone before the coke and Crack was better than the majority of shooting guards that played in the NBA before the merger. David Thompson was basically the D Wade of the 70s. Thompson's only competition from sg in the NBA during that time was probably Earl Monroe and Lou Hudson and DT was better than both of them. Hell, I'll even throw Fred Brown from Seattle in there too but David Thompson was better than him too. I'll even throw Phil Chenier in there, but he was better than him too. The Aba can't be that bad if Rick Barry left the NBA to play for them.

Actually , Rick Barry failed in ABA and then he came the NBA and he won championship without star or superstar in NBA .

ABA Teams always won against NBA Teams after 1973.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Skywalker was looks like T-Mac with x2 shorter career . Gervin was clearly better player than him.

[MiseryCityTexas]

It would have been interesting. After Wilt retired, the NBA became a much weaker league. By '75, we had 48-34 title team, and in '77 a 49-33 title winner. Hell, in '78 a 44-38 team won a ring. And even Seattle's 52-30 team was nothing to write home about.

And I think a peak Dr. J would have won some scoring titles, too. Albeit, it would have been tough against a prime McAdoo.

Elvin Hayes was a beast. Kareem was a beast, Lou Hudson was a beast, Pistol Pete was a beast, Spencer Haywood was a beast, John Drew was a beast, Adrian Dantley was a beast, Calvin Murphy was a beast, Dave Cowens was a beast, Walt Frazier was Gary Payton of the 70s, Bob Macadoo was regular season MVP, Gus Williams was Chris Paul of the 70s, Doctor J was Lebron of the 70s, Nate Archibald was a pass first Russell Westbrook of the 70s, Paul Westpaul was a great player before injuries, Rudy Tomjonavich was a beast, Rick Barry was Finals MVP so you saying all this crap about the NBA being a weaker league after Wilt's retirement is bullshit.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Actually , Rick Barry failed in ABA and then he came the NBA and he won championship without star or superstar in NBA .

ABA Teams always won against NBA Teams after 1973.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Skywalker was looks like T-Mac with x2 shorter career . Gervin was clearly better player than him.


NBA's strongest postition in the early to mid 70s was power forward, and center while the ABA had the best shooting guards and small forwards. The Bulls teams of the 70s were pitifully underrated. They had Bob Love, Jerry Sloan, Norn Van Lier, and Chet Walker all on the same damned team.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Actually , Rick Barry failed in ABA and then he came the NBA and he won championship without star or superstar in NBA .

ABA Teams always won against NBA Teams after 1973.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Skywalker was looks like T-Mac with x2 shorter career . Gervin was clearly better player than him.

I compare DT more to D Wade because they both 6'4 tall, both drive to the basket and draw fouls, and both can jump out of the gym and do insane dunks. Wade could've easily won the dunk contest if he wanted to.

[MiseryCityTexas]

The NBA sucks ass today. I bet if a player like Bob Rule played in today's league, he would be the best center in the NBA today.

Prime Shareef Abdur Rahim would probably be the third best small forward in the league after Lebron and Paul George if he woulda been in his absolute prime in today's league.:facepalm

[warriorfan]

Dr J Legacy is being Alpha AF and checking bird after he was talking too much shit

[dankok8]

Yeah, he would be more like top 10. Question: what makes you sure the NBA was stronger than the ABA during that time period?

Top 10? How? If Dr J played in the NBA from 1972-1976 (on the Hawks because they drafted him) he would almost certainly not win a single title. Yes the Hawks had Maravich, Lou Hudson, and even Walt Bellamy for a few years but that team would not have enough defense + other teams like the Celtics, Knicks, and Bullets were stronger. And he most certainly wouldn't win 3 MVP's like he did in the ABA. He would win one MVP at most and probably in 1976.

So basically Dr J retires with

27k points
1-2 MVP's
1 title as a #2 option

He's probably a borderline top 25 player instead of a borderline top 15 player.

Hope you're not serious about the ABA being as strong as the NBA.

[dankok8]

Actually , Rick Barry failed in ABA and then he came the NBA and he won championship without star or superstar in NBA .

ABA Teams always won against NBA Teams after 1973.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Skywalker was looks like T-Mac with x2 shorter career . Gervin was clearly better player than him.

I've seen people cite the records of the NBA-ABA games as some kind of proof but it's not at all.

#1 - those were exhibition games

#2 - the vast majority of the games were played in or around ABA cities and very rarely in NBA cities

#3 - the ABA players were very motivated to use these games to prove they were on NBA level; most times NBA guys didn't care nearly as much

[feyki]

I've seen people cite the records of the NBA-ABA games as some kind of proof but it's not at all.

#1 - those were exhibition games

#2 - the vast majority of the games were played in or around ABA cities and very rarely in NBA cities

#3 - the ABA players were very motivated to use these games to prove they were on NBA level; most times NBA guys didn't care nearly as much

Well , Why NBA Teams usually won against ABA Teams between 68-72 ?





I compare DT more to D Wade because they both 6'4 tall, both drive to the basket and draw fouls, and both can jump out of the gym and do insane dunks. Wade could've easily won the dunk contest if he wanted to.

Skywalker had more vertical than Wade . Skywalker also probably taller than Wade around 1-1.5 inches with modern shoes . He had close physicality to T-Mac than Wade . Wade had 35 max vertical , Skywalker had probably 40+ max vertical like T-Mac .

Wade was different player , his defence , explosiveness , drives to the basket were like Jordan .



NBA's strongest postition in the early to mid 70s was power forward, and center while the ABA had the best shooting guards and small forwards. The Bulls teams of the 70s were pitifully underrated. They had Bob Love, Jerry Sloan, Norn Van Lier, and Chet Walker all on the same damned team.

Yes , Bulls had nice roster and they were contender at mid 70's , like Along past three years Pacers .


But look at those ABA Teams ;

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYA/1972.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/INA/1972.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1973.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYA/1974.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/INA/1974.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTS/1974.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1975.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/INA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DNA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1976.html


ABA was clearly better league than NBA at 1976 . 1974 is debatable , 1975 is close to ABA .

[JellyBean]

... he played his whole career in the NBA instead of playing in the ABA till 1976?

Atlanta drafted him in 1972 so just assume he plays there until 1976 and then goes to the Sixers and the rest of his career plays out the same way it did.

In my opinion he would be nowhere near #15 all time which is where he's typically ranked if he played in the NBA his whole career. He won two titles and won three consecutive MVP's in the ABA and there is no chance in hell that would happen in the NBA.

Thoughts?

Dr. J's legacy would be the same. The Doc was the Doc. His was a competitor to the highest degree and would have played well in the NBA just like he did in the ABA. Doc's legacy is fine where it is at.

[JellyBean]

Dr J Legacy is being Alpha AF and checking bird after he was talking too much shit

:oldlol: I remember watching that game as a kid. I think we all wanted to choke and hit Larry Bird at the time. The dude was talking crap and backing it up. Doc had enough. Plus he told Doc "I think you should retire!". Bird had 30 something by the 3rd quarter. He was killing Doc.

[dankok8]

Well , Why NBA Teams usually won against ABA Teams between 68-72 ?



Because the NBA had just completely overwhelming talent during that period. There were literally a handful of ABA players who could even start on an NBA team in that period.


ABA was clearly better league than NBA at 1976 . 1974 is debatable , 1975 is close to ABA .

The NBA was still a lot better than the ABA in 1976. You don't have to look at much more than how the merger affected these guys.

Dr J who was the cornerstone of the ABA had his numbers decline dramatically (from 29.3/11.0/5.0 to 21.7/8.5/3.7) and he went from a 1st Team Defender in the ABA to being merely a good defensive player. Of course his best NBA years were better but even then nowhere near his best ABA seasons. He went from being by far the best player of the ABA to one of the five best players in the NBA but never the best.

Gilmore came into the NBA as an MVP and a #2 player in the league in the ABA. In the NBA he was merely a top 5-7 center (behind Kareem, Walton, McAdoo, Moses, Lanier most of the time...) and not a distinguished defender he was in the ABA. Gilmore was never even a top 10 player in the post-merger NBA.

Dan Issel was a poor rebounder and soft defender in the NBA and even offensively he was below his best ABA seasons. He made 1 all-star team.


Some other ABA super stars like George McGinnis and Billy Knight made 1-2 all-star games and then faded into irrelevance. The physical toll of the senior league took them out of commission.

Many other ABA stars like Ralph Simpson, Ron Boone, Billy Paultz and Louie Dampier became role players in the NBA.


When several perennial all-stars in one league are not even starters in the other despite still being young at the time of merger, that's a clear sign which league is stronger!

Gervin, Thompson, Moses, Knight, Kenon etc. were all 23 years old or less at the time of the merger so naturally they improved in the NBA.

[Dr.J4ever]

This is my first time back here on this board in a long time(I've been mostly on the 76ers SB site Liberty Ballers), and I couldn't help but notice this thread. Of course I can't resist to not join in the fray. Just a little bit maybe LOL.

The issue of how great Julius was seems to be directly linked to how good the ABA was at it's peak since Julius played in the ABA during it's peak years between 1973-1975. Let's take a look at an excerpt from the site, "Remember the ABA":

"However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76.

ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

NBA apologists can spin this information many, many ways but from 1973 to end of the ABA years, the ABA defeated the NBA head to head in games with "bad blood" between the 2 leagues at a rate of 63%.

The ABA won 63% of games between 1973-1975. 63% is 63%! If the NBA was truly the superior league, you would think at some point they would have said, "let's teach these guys a lesson", but no it was 63%!

63% is really a number that cannot be denied.

One more thing. There is no comparing the post-merger NBA to either the pre-merger NBA or pre-merger ABA. Of course, the post merger NBA was stronger than either of the 2 pre-merger leagues. Not only was the talent much stronger thanks to entire ABA teams joining and the ABA dispersal draft, but the new coaches from the ABA introduced many new concepts to the NBA game both on offense and defense. This is well documented.

[dankok8]

This is my first time back here on this board in a long time(I've been mostly on the 76ers SB site Liberty Ballers), and I couldn't help but notice this thread. Of course I can't resist to not join in the fray. Just a little bit maybe LOL.

The issue of how great Julius was seems to be directly linked to how good the ABA was at it's peak since Julius played in the ABA during it's peak years between 1973-1975. Let's take a look at an excerpt from the site, "Remember the ABA":

"However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76.

ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

NBA apologists can spin this information many, many ways but from 1973 to end of the ABA years, the ABA defeated the NBA head to head in games with "bad blood" between the 2 leagues at a rate of 63%.

The ABA won 63% of games between 1973-1975. 63% is 63%! If the NBA was truly the superior league, you would think at some point they would have said, "let's teach these guys a lesson", but no it was 63%!

63% is really a number that cannot be denied.

One more thing. There is no comparing the post-merger NBA to either the pre-merger NBA or pre-merger ABA. Of course, the post merger NBA was stronger than either of the 2 pre-merger leagues. Not only was the talent much stronger thanks to entire ABA teams joining and the ABA dispersal draft, but the new coaches from the ABA introduced many new concepts to the NBA game both on offense and defense. This is well documented.

They were exhibition games, they were almost always played in or around ABA cities (about 90% of the time), and ABA guys always got up for those games more than the NBA guys.

But the main thing is they were exhibition games. My Raptors a few years back had a 8-0 preseason run and then had a losing record in the regular season. Exhibition games have very little correlation to the quality of the team.

Besides without even looking up the roster specifics for all teams but from the 10 exhibition games that the Bucks played against the ABA while Kareem was on the team, Kareem only suited up for 8 of them. In the 13 exhibition games that the Celtics played against the ABA, Dave Cowens only suited up for 3 of them. Cowens only played for 3/13 of the Celtics games against the ABA and yet I've seen people here make conclusions based on that.

By the way I got my info from nbastats.net. NBA-ABA games are under Various Tournaments & Games near the bottom of the page. Just download the spreadsheet.

I wouldn't take anything away from those games to be honest.



If you look at the defensive quality of the two league, the depth of talent, and the level at which ABA guys played after the merger, there is no case to say that the ABA was anywhere close to as strong as the NBA.

[Marchesk]

He's probably a borderline top 25 player instead of a borderline top 15 player.

He isn't borderline top 15, he's borderline top 10, and the real reason he isn't considered top 10 is because he didn't play more recently. Same with Moses Malone. They both got somewhat overshadowed by Magic, Bird and then Michael. They were a little too early to the party.

I'm not really sure why Hakeem is ranked over them, other than he peaked in the 90s, and won titles when Jordan was retired.

[ShawkFactory]

Dr J Legacy is being Alpha AF and checking bird after he was talking too much shit
Meh...hitting a guy while he's being held because he's fvcking dominating you isn't really alpha.

[dankok8]

He isn't borderline top 15, he's borderline top 10, and the real reason he isn't considered top 10 is because he didn't play more recently. Same with Moses Malone. They both got somewhat overshadowed by Magic, Bird and then Michael. They were a little too early to the party.

I'm not really sure why Hakeem is ranked over them, other than he peaked in the 90s, and won titles when Jordan was retired.

How is Dr J top 10 in any way shape or form? The man has 1 MVP and one title as a second option and even in his peak in the NBA he was clearly below Bird and Lebron at their peaks. I think people give him credit for his ABA accomplishments which are worth way way less.

With Moses I can actually see an argument for him. He was a much more dominant force at his peak. Even for him though top 10 is a big push. I have Moses at #12.

[Dr.J4ever]

They were exhibition games, they were almost always played in or around ABA cities (about 90% of the time), and ABA guys always got up for those games more than the NBA guys.

But the main thing is they were exhibition games. My Raptors a few years back had a 8-0 preseason run and then had a losing record in the regular season. Exhibition games have very little correlation to the quality of the team.

Besides without even looking up the roster specifics for all teams but from the 10 exhibition games that the Bucks played against the ABA while Kareem was on the team, Kareem only suited up for 8 of them. In the 13 exhibition games that the Celtics played against the ABA, Dave Cowens only suited up for 3 of them. Cowens only played for 3/13 of the Celtics games against the ABA and yet I've seen people here make conclusions based on that.

By the way I got my info from nbastats.net. NBA-ABA games are under Various Tournaments & Games near the bottom of the page. Just download the spreadsheet.

I wouldn't take anything away from those games to be honest.



If you look at the defensive quality of the two league, the depth of talent, and the level at which ABA guys played after the merger, there is no case to say that the ABA was anywhere close to as strong as the NBA.

Okay, let's compare notes on that because I didn't see those games, but we do know from reputable eye witnesses that they were not regular pre-season games. There was a rivalry between the two leagues, and there was reputedly "bad blood" that even after the leagues merged, the NBA, in effect, fined the ABA teams that entered the NBA.

This makes complete sense, because even today when an NBA team goes to Europe, it's a little different, and you see starters playing in the 4th quarter because there are reputations to uphold and there is a rivalry. Now imagine 2 leagues competing for the same market. Below is a link that details all the games between the ABA and NBA. What I see are stars of both leagues scoring heavily and playing heavy minutes.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Also this :

"ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

Check this out too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Basketball_Association%E2%80%93National_B asketball_Association_merger

"In the summer before the 1971–72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125–120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][6] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106–103.[6] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15–10 against the NBA in 1973, 16–7 in 1974, and 31–17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[19] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened—the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA–ABA games were intense."[20] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks—and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that he wasn't playing to win, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[21]

Interest in ABA vs. NBA play extended beyond the two leagues' management. In 1976, CBS sought to establish a postseason playoff between the ABA and NBA, and to win the rights to broadcast those games.[22]"

Also this:

"Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[95]

Again, I didn't see those years, but i believe there is substantial evidence that by the time the two leagues merged, there was parity between the 2 leagues. That much is clear to me.

And had there been an NBA vs ABA Finals series, the ABA champ could have beaten the NBA champ somewhere between 1974-1976. Remember the AFL and Joe Namath?

[dankok8]

Okay, let's compare notes on that because I didn't see those games, but we do know from reputable eye witnesses that they were not regular pre-season games. There was a rivalry between the two leagues, and there was reputedly "bad blood" that even after the leagues merged, the NBA, in effect, fined the ABA teams that entered the NBA.

This makes complete sense, because even today when an NBA team goes to Europe, it's a little different, and you see starters playing in the 4th quarter because there are reputations to uphold and there is a rivalry. Now imagine 2 leagues competing for the same market. Below is a link that details all the games between the ABA and NBA. What I see are stars of both leagues scoring heavily and playing heavy minutes.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Also this :

"ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

Check this out too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Basketball_Association%E2%80%93National_B asketball_Association_merger

"In the summer before the 1971–72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125–120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][6] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106–103.[6] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15–10 against the NBA in 1973, 16–7 in 1974, and 31–17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[19] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened—the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA–ABA games were intense."[20] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks—and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that he wasn't playing to win, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[21]

Interest in ABA vs. NBA play extended beyond the two leagues' management. In 1976, CBS sought to establish a postseason playoff between the ABA and NBA, and to win the rights to broadcast those games.[22]"

Also this:

"Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[95]

Again, I didn't see those years, but i believe there is substantial evidence that by the time the two leagues merged, there was parity between the 2 leagues. That much is clear to me.

And had there been an NBA vs ABA Finals series, the ABA champ could have beaten the NBA champ somewhere between 1974-1976. Remember the AFL and Joe Namath?

I'm not denying that there was bad blood between the leagues.

Please look up the NBA-ABA Exhibitions game logs from nbastats.net since that's where I'm getting my info from.

The Celtics went 6-7 against the ABA but Cowens only played 3 out of those 13 games.

The Bulls went 3-7 against the ABA but Sloan only played 1 out of those 10 games and Walker only in 1 of those 10 games as well.

The Braves went 2-6 against the ABA but McAdoo only played in 5 out of those 8 games.

The Sonics went 1-6 against the ABA but Downtown Freddie Brown played in just 2 out of those 7 games.

The Kansas City Kings went 3-7 against the ABA but Tiny Archibald played in just 4 out of those 10 games.

The Bucks went 7-3 against the ABA until 1974 but Kareem only played in 8 out of those 10 games.


NBA teams weren't at full strength for most of those games. I haven't checked the ABA teams much but either way those were not really informative match-ups. Forget even preseason games for a second. Hell how many times have we seen a team get killed even in the regular season by a certain team and then dominate them in the playoffs?


Defensively the NBA was a far superior league. The 1976 NBA had a DRtg of 98.3 while the 1976 ABA had a DRtg of 104.1. A 5.8 differential in DRtg is equivalent to a difference between the #1 best defensive team in the league and the #22 defensive team in the league in 2015. In other words, the defense in the NBA was several tiers better.

[Psileas]

... he played his whole career in the NBA instead of playing in the ABA till 1976?

Atlanta drafted him in 1972 so just assume he plays there until 1976 and then goes to the Sixers and the rest of his career plays out the same way it did.

In my opinion he would be nowhere near #15 all time which is where he's typically ranked if he played in the NBA his whole career. He won two titles and won three consecutive MVP's in the ABA and there is no chance in hell that would happen in the NBA.

Thoughts?


Actually Milwaukee did. And that's a scary thought, given who were already playing for Milwaukee back then...

[dankok8]

Actually Milwaukee did. And that's a scary thought, given who were already playing for Milwaukee back then...

Yes you're right. I had a brain fart. And that's why they didn't let him join the Hawks in 1972 when he tried. Because the Bucks had his rights and threatened to sue.

Playing as a #2 to Kareem, they could have won 2-3 more titles. My thread assumed he joined Atlanta only because that's a more balanced situation. Like you said Erving on the Bucks would be overpowering.

[SpanishACB]

It would have been interesting. After Wilt retired, the NBA became a much weaker league. By '75, we had 48-34 title team, and in '77 a 49-33 title winner. Hell, in '78 a 44-38 team won a ring.

the argument you're using to describe a weak league works the same to describe a strong league.

for such a verbose high effort poster you sure lack the most common of logic.

[LAZERUSS]

the argument you're using to describe a weak league works the same to describe a strong league.

for such a verbose high effort poster you sure lack the most common of logic.

As you obviously could tell, I meant that the CHAMPIONS were MUCH weaker.

E.G. the '75 Warriors. Rick Barry and a cast of no-names.

Interesting, too, that the Warriors ADDED Gus Williams the very next year...ran away with the best record in the league, and then lost to a 40-42 team in the WCF's.

[dankok8]

As you obviously could tell, I meant that the CHAMPIONS were MUCH weaker.

E.G. the '75 Warriors. Rick Barry and a cast of no-names.

Interesting, too, that the Warriors ADDED Gus Williams the very next year...ran away with the best record in the league, and then lost to a 40-42 team in the WCF's.

The champions were a bit weaker. I mean the 1971 Bucks, 1972 Lakers, and 1973-1974 Celtics were all time great teams.

Most of it was just parity though. From 1975-1979 most of the team in the league won between 25 and 55 games. Almost every single one.

[LAZERUSS]

The champions were a bit weaker. I mean the 1971 Bucks, 1972 Lakers, and 1973-1974 Celtics were all time great teams.

Most of it was just parity though. From 1975-1979 most of the team in the league won between 25 and 55 games. Almost every single one.

Can't forget the Knicks either. Their '73 team had six HOFers.

[dankok8]

Can't forget the Knicks either. Their '73 team had six HOFers.

No doubt... 1970 and 1973 Knicks, 1977 Blazers were also truly great.

[Dr.J4ever]

I'm not denying that there was bad blood between the leagues.

Please look up the NBA-ABA Exhibitions game logs from nbastats.net since that's where I'm getting my info from.

The Celtics went 6-7 against the ABA but Cowens only played 3 out of those 13 games.

The Bulls went 3-7 against the ABA but Sloan only played 1 out of those 10 games and Walker only in 1 of those 10 games as well.

The Braves went 2-6 against the ABA but McAdoo only played in 5 out of those 8 games.

The Sonics went 1-6 against the ABA but Downtown Freddie Brown played in just 2 out of those 7 games.

The Kansas City Kings went 3-7 against the ABA but Tiny Archibald played in just 4 out of those 10 games.

The Bucks went 7-3 against the ABA until 1974 but Kareem only played in 8 out of those 10 games.


NBA teams weren't at full strength for most of those games. I haven't checked the ABA teams much but either way those were not really informative match-ups. Forget even preseason games for a second. Hell how many times have we seen a team get killed even in the regular season by a certain team and then dominate them in the playoffs?


Defensively the NBA was a far superior league. The 1976 NBA had a DRtg of 98.3 while the 1976 ABA had a DRtg of 104.1. A 5.8 differential in DRtg is equivalent to a difference between the #1 best defensive team in the league and the #22 defensive team in the league in 2015. In other words, the defense in the NBA was several tiers better.

Defensive and Ortg rating is not a be all, end all. The teams aren't playing vs. each other and this is only useful in a context when teams all play vs. each other. It also doesn't account for style of play, and the ABA clearly had a different style.

All the information I provided from Wiki and other sites and quotes from respected expert writers from that era cannot be challenged. To me, it's a firm and reasonable basis to form an opinion.

Please also see the link I provided and as I said, what I see there are stars of both sides scoring heavily and playing heavy minutes. Each game from 1971 up to 1975 are documented there. You agree there was bad blood between the leagues, and yet you don't seem to think that it carried over to the games. Hmmm. Also, if the NBA was truly superior, eventually there would have been a point where they would have said, let's teach these guys a lesson. There is no way that those games were regular pre-season games based on Bob Ryans quote and others.

Another thing, in the new post merger NBA, Denver was close to having the best record in the NBA. I think one or two games off the pace, and a poster provided info here that they had the best defense(didn't check that but with Bobby Jones playing for them anything is possible) in the newly merged NBA.

I believe Lazerus said Denver gave the champion Blazers(who were reinforced with ABA PF Maurice Lucas) the most trouble in the Playoffs(6 game series). By the way, this is the same Denver team that the NY Nets, led by Julius who was just spectacular, dispatched in 6 games in the last ABA Finals . In the 1977 NBA finals, 5 of the 10 starters in the series were ABA players.

Yes, I respect your opinion but I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one.:cheers:

[kennethgriffin]

pre merger accolades are equally worthless on both ends of the spectrum

nba and aba equally

it was a bad era

period

[bizil]

Before Bird and Magic came around, peak Doc was the best perimeter player in the world. And ONLY behind Kareem and at times Moses as the best player in the world. So just off THAT ALONE, Doc deserves mad props. No matter the league, he would have gained a massive amount of solo accolades.

And if I was the Hawks, I would have went with Pete at PG, Lou at SG, and Doc at the SF. I actually think that squad could have had a shot at a ring. So if Doc wins a ring there AND ADDS to his Sixers ring, I think he still ends up in the top 15 GOAT. He's ALREADY arguably there as it is. Another ring with the Hawks would solidify that. And maybe even bump him up higher.

But in general, I STILL think Doc is the GOAT SF for PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! When u combine his ABA and NBA stats, he still has a great case to this day. When looking at strictly NBA history, Bird and Bron are the top two GOAT SF's.

[kawhileonard2]

So if we transfer over all his ABA accomplishments into the NBA, his resume would look something like this

4 MVP's
2 Finals MVP's
12 All-NBA selections (9 First Teams)
6th all time in career scoring

Looks pretty damn similar, exactly the same actually, to a player a good amount of posters say isn't top 10 all time

Basically he is Lebron.

[La Frescobaldi]

Basically he is Lebron.

Man let us be straight now the ABA ain’t all that and never was any of that.

how many ABA players are remembered today? Like 5 or 6 at most. Giant stars of the ABA pretty much vanished in the NBA. Totally just couldn’t keep up.

I know there’s guys that wanna prop up Doc by saying how great his competition was but here is the truth of it: the ABA was not great, and Julius Erving WAS great. He doesn’t need anybody propping him up, he’s atg at the highest level. Not because he was in the ABA but because he is Doc.

But ABA accolades don’t mean what NBA accolades mean.

[kawhileonard2]

Man let us be straight now the ABA ain’t all that and never was any of that.

how many ABA players are remembered today? Like 5 or 6 at most. Giant stars of the ABA pretty much vanished in the NBA. Totally just couldn’t keep up.

I know there’s guys that wanna prop up Doc by saying how great his competition was but here is the truth of it: the ABA was not great, and Julius Erving WAS great. He doesn’t need anybody propping him up, he’s atg at the highest level. Not because he was in the ABA but because he is Doc.

But ABA accolades don’t mean what NBA accolades mean.

The ABA was better than the NBA in the 70's when they went head to head.