If Scottie Pippen doesn't play with MJ, Pippen = Rudy Gay

[warriorfan]

Rudy Gay best case scenario

could possibly be worse

[JohnFreeman]

Rudy Homo is the worst player of all time. He is pretty much a meme at this point.

[warriorfan]

Rudy Homo is the worst player of all time. He is pretty much a meme at this point.

he needs a jordan to whip him into shape

[TommyGriffin]

I'm gonna have to disagree, honestly.

Scottie was a fantastic, hung player. Gotta show respect where it's due.

[bizil]

Even without MJ, peak Pip would have been a 22 point, 6-7 dimes, 7-8 rebound point forward. And on top of it provide world class defense. Rudy Gay could NEVER provide that kind of arsenal. Even without MJ, Pip would have redefined the SF position.

The only problem would have been Pip's lack of the alpha dog scoring gene. That element is the most premium asset in the sport. If Pip had that, he would ABSOLUTELY be more on the level of the Birds, Brons, Docs, and Baylors at the SF position. Due to the fact that MJ was the ULTIMATE alpha dog, it took a lot of heat of Pip in that regard.

[ralph_i_el]

I quit ISH.

90% of you are retarded

[DrakeTheSnake]

Rudy Gay best case scenario

could possibly be worse
Trolling too obvious. If you ignore every season Pippen ever played with Jordan, his career is still better than Gay's.

[Teanett]

I quit ISH.

90% of you are retarded

i agree.
i need to quit too. staying away from idiots is a good new year's resolution.

[3ball]

Trolling too obvious. If you ignore every season Pippen ever played with Jordan, his career is still better than Gay's.
Bullshit.

He was garbage with Houston and Portland, even though he had the benefit of playing with Jordan and winning 6 rings FIRST, before he played in HOU and POR

[stephanieg]

90% of you are retarded

You're optimistic.

[CurryOverLebron]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0lFg08C1ko

Scottie pippen is not a top 50 player

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/skip1.png

[iamgine]

Could be...anyone could be anyone else in different circumstances. If Hakeem didn't go to the US, he'd not be an NBA level player. Had Len Bias not died, he could be the GOAT.

[DrakeTheSnake]

Bullshit.

He was garbage with Houston and Portland, even though he had the benefit of playing with Jordan and winning 6 rings FIRST, before he played in HOU and POR

In 93-94, Pippen averaged 22/9/6/3/1 and was the leader of a 55 win team, which made it to game 7 against the eventual Eastern Conference champions in the 2nd round in a tough conference. He was 3rd in MVP votes that year, and was also All-Star MVP. He also was 1st team All-NBA and All-Defense. This was far superior to Rudy's best season. He was having a similar season prior to Jordan's return in the 94-95 season. After his Bulls days, Pippen was the 2nd or 3rd scorer for his team depending on the year and did not put up the scoring that Rudy did, but brought intangibles of defense and leadership (along with about 5 rebs and 5 assists per season) that Rudy was never able to bring in his career, and helped the Blazers get to game 7 in the WCF against the Lakers, and making the playoffs each year of his non-Jordan career with the exception of his injury plagued final year with the young Bulls. Pippen also was once 1st team and once 2nd team all-defense after he left the Bulls. Meanwhile, Rudy Gay was never an all-star, never even made 3rd team all-nba, never made an all-defense team of any kind, and only made the playoffs once in his miserable career with a team that had more success after he left, and lost in the 1st round.

[Megabox!]

I quit ISH.

90% of you are retarded
So much truth

[Smoke117]

I quit ISH.

90% of you are retarded

http://cdn.niketalk.com/2/25/258bf345_AlonzoMourningThinks.gif

[kshutts1]

If we assume that Pippen would be Gay without Jordan...

Does that mean that Jordan, without Pippen, would be Westbrook when Durant is hurt?

[Euroleague]

Rudy Gay best case scenario

could possibly be worse

https://media2.giphy.com/media/FHlMJHSx5sGBi/200.gif

[3ball]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/FHlMJHSx5sGBi/200.gif


Pippen was super-weak as a rookie - he needed tons of help and development on both sides of the ball.. Certainly, if Pippen's 7 ppg rookie capability landed on the 1988 Lakers, he would never have seen the light of day - a veteran, winning team doesn't have time for a scrawny, undeveloped rookie.

Fortunately, Pippen landed with a bad team where he could get a little playing time.. And more importantly, he landed in the perfect place that would maximize his development on offense and defense - he watched MJ garner DPOY, while having full access to MJ's goat offensive tutelage.

This is why Pippen's all-time rank is overstated - the fact that he was an undeveloped rookie means he needed to land in the RIGHT place to maximize his development.. Otoh, guys like Gasol and Worthy were already good and would reach their potential on any team - so if we're considering what would happen if each guy was drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy and Gasol would far MUCH better overall, while it would be a crap-shoot with Pippen to see if he landed in the right place.

As it turns out, he's the luckiest guy in the world, according to Jerry Krause:

[indent][I]

[DrakeTheSnake]

^ What is your point? Every player has had different influences in their life that made them the players they became, whether it was NBA or high school coaches, other players, or simply their upbringing (including non-basketball related life lessons). All that matters is what they became, so "This is why Pippen's all-time rank is overstated" is a ****ing worthless comment. Might as well say that Curry's success is overstated because he was lucked into being Dell Curry's son. That shit doesn't matter, as long as they became good.

Btw, nice avoidance of my earlier post.

[TripleA]

In 93-94, Pippen averaged 22/9/6/3/1 and was the leader of a 55 win team, which made it to game 7 against the eventual Eastern Conference champions in the 2nd round in a tough conference. He was 3rd in MVP votes that year, and was also All-Star MVP. He also was 1st team All-NBA and All-Defense. This was far superior to Rudy's best season. He was having a similar season prior to Jordan's return in the 94-95 season. After his Bulls days, Pippen was the 2nd or 3rd scorer for his team depending on the year and did not put up the scoring that Rudy did, but brought intangibles of defense and leadership (along with about 5 rebs and 5 assists per season) that Rudy was never able to bring in his career, and helped the Blazers get to game 7 in the WCF against the Lakers, and making the playoffs each year of his non-Jordan career with the exception of his injury plagued final year with the young Bulls. Pippen also was once 1st team and once 2nd team all-defense after he left the Bulls. Meanwhile, Rudy Gay was never an all-star, never even made 3rd team all-nba, never made an all-defense team of any kind, and only made the playoffs once in his miserable career with a team that had more success after he left, and lost in the 1st round.

Damn 3ball got wrecked looks like he has no combacks except for copy and paste garbage.

[WayOfWade]

I quit ISH.

90% of you are retarded
ISH is pretty much Gotham at this point, we need a Batman to save us even though we don't necessarily deserve one

[dubeta]

ISH is pretty much Gotham at this point, we need a Batman to save us even though we don't necessarily deserve one

http://s16.postimg.org/nnropbuit/Untitled.jpg

[OldSchoolBBall]

Even without MJ, peak Pip would have been a 22 point, 6-7 dimes, 7-8 rebound point forward. And on top of it provide world class defense. Rudy Gay could NEVER provide that kind of arsenal. Even without MJ, Pip would have redefined the SF position.

You definitely can't assume all that. Pippen likely doesn't develop into the all-around and two-way player he was without Jordan, nor does he become as mentally steady.

I always say this, and I stand by it: WHAT ARE THE CHANCES that the teammate of one of the best all-around players and defensive players in history (Jordan) JUST HAPPENS to also become one of the best all-around players and defensive players in history. Yeah...total coincidence. :rolleyes:

Pippen certainly had talent/potential, and the above is not meant to say that Jordan completely made Pippen. Just that I don't think he develops along the exact same lines (or to the same extent) without Jordan. Lots of guys have talent and potential and never pan out. He could have turned out to be the Pippen we know or he could have been Rudy Gay or Derrick McKey - or something in the middle, like a Detlef Schrempf. But to say definitively that he'd be the exact same player is silly imo.

[rodman91]

Pippen was much much better than Rudy Gay... still overrated because of Jordan. Some says he was 2nd best player in 90's and such...lol.

[bizil]

You definitely can't assume all that. Pippen likely doesn't develop into the all-around and two-way player he was without Jordan, nor does he become as mentally steady.

I always say this, and I stand by it: WHAT ARE THE CHANCES that the teammate of one of the best all-around players and defensive players in history (Jordan) JUST HAPPENS to also become one of the best all-around players and defensive players in history. Yeah...total coincidence. :rolleyes:

Pippen certainly had talent/potential, and the above is not meant to say that Jordan completely made Pippen. Just that I don't think he develops along the exact same lines (or to the same extent) without Jordan. Lots of guys have talent and potential and never pan out. He could have turned out to be the Pippen we know or he could have been Rudy Gay or Derrick McKey - or something in the middle, like a Detlef Schrempf. But to say definitively that he'd be the exact same player is silly imo.

How am I silly in stating that? THE BOTTOM LINE IS Pippen had what it took to reach the heights he reached. IF ANYTHING, MJ provided a TOUGHNESS AND CONFIDENCE boost to Pippen. But Pip ALREADY had the ability to do the things he did. Sure MJ made Pip better. Playing with the GOAT should make ANYBODY BETTER! I don't give a damn if MJ played with Bron, Shaq, Big O, Kareem, Bird, or Magic. Steel sharpens steel. All of those guys would have made EACH OTHER BETTER! MJ said HIMSELF that Pip made him better...

My basic point was Pippen would have been on ANOTHER LEVEL than the guys u named like Rudy Gay and Derrick McKey. I don't GIVE A DAMN who Pippen would have played for. When it comes to Detlef, that's a closer comparison.

And FINALLY u gotta keep in mind that Pippen REVOLUTIONIZED the SF position! That type of skillset is in u, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN who Pippen played for or with. Pippen was NEVER GOING TO BE AN ALPHA DOG kind of guy anyway. He was going to be a very good scorer who was great at passing, defense, and rebounding his position. Pippen could get 20-22 points in the flow of an offense WITHOUT ever playing with MJ. And the assists, rebounds, and world class defense would have been a given. WITHOUT MJ!!

[3ball]

How am I silly in stating that? THE BOTTOM LINE IS Pippen had what it took to reach the heights he reached. IF ANYTHING, MJ provided a TOUGHNESS AND CONFIDENCE boost to Pippen. But Pip ALREADY had the ability to do the things he did.


You're not understanding the game - Pippen learned MOVES from MJ.

By 1990, most people said that Pippen played a lot like Jordan - he used a lot of the same moves, same lean-in tomahawk, same swagger after a score, same high intensity.

In other words, Pippen would NOT have developed the same offensively if he didn't play with the GOAT offensive player... And even without having seen it first hand, this should be intuitive - if an undeveloped player comes into the league and lands alongside the goat offensive player, the goat is going to have a significant impact on that player's offensive game and repertoire..

For anyone to think Pippen would develop all the same moves and repertoire is simply a gross misperception of how basketball works and how undeveloped players improve.





Sure MJ made Pip better. BUT Pip made MJ better too.


I call bullshit..

MJ didn't learn a single move or trick from Pippen... Pippen didn't improve MJ's mental ability one iota.

MJ's stats were better before Pippen got there or was a starter/meaningful player.

[bizil]

I think people are starting to actually give MJ TOO MUCH CREDIT in the evolution of Pip's game. Sure MJ deserves mad props for helping Pip. That's what AN INCUMBENT SUPERSTAR is supposed to do for younger players. BUT ONCE AGAIN, if u revolutionize your position, u ALREADY have special ability inside of you.

Secondly, HELL YA Pip made MJ better too! Before Pip came of age, MJ HAD to literally do everything for that Bulls team to succeed. Once Pip came of age, Pip could be the primary ball handler, defend the other teams best player, and give MJ scoring help. And with Pip defending MJ in practice, I'm sure it helped MJ stay sharp as hell. All of these things enhanced MJ. I've HEARD MJ say Pip made him better due to these things.

[hitmanyr2k]

I call bullshit..

MJ didn't learn a single move or trick from Pippen... Pippen didn't improve MJ's mental ability one iota.

MJ's stats were better before Pippen got there or was a starter/meaningful player.

The only bullshit is between your ears.

When Jackson and his staff emerged a few minutes before practice started, they saw Pippen and Michael Jordan on the side of the court working on a segment of the team

[bizil]

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]The only bullshit is between your ears.

When Jackson and his staff emerged a few minutes before practice started, they saw Pippen and Michael Jordan on the side of the court working on a segment of the team

[ISHGoat]

http://s16.postimg.org/nnropbuit/Untitled.jpg

The hero ISH needs.

:bowdown:

[tmacattack33]

He'd be very much like Rudy Gay I agree. Combined with great passing ability. And great rebounding ability. And legendary defense.

[3ball]

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]

The only bullshit is between your ears.

When Jackson and his staff emerged a few minutes before practice started, they saw Pippen and Michael Jordan on the side of the court working on a segment of the team

[Bankaii]

What a joke - no decent player would need someone to teach them how to get the steps right on a reverse pivot, left hand dunk - that's a basic move that anyone can do, including me.

Assuming Phil said that (and you're not making it up, since you didn't include a source) - he was just throwing red meat the dumb reporters so they have something to print.. I'm certain of this.
http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_jackson_100730.html

So when you use quotes from random players to fuel your bullshit agenda thats fine.

But when someone uses a quote from the GOAT coach that was always around both MJ and Pip it somehow isn't legit?

Your deflections when something doesn't support your agenda are ridiculous.

[bizil]

Once again, I think people are getting out of hand with MJ's impact on Pip. From what I'm hearing, some posters are saying Pip ONLY became a great player MAINLY because of MJ. If you SAME POSTERS asked anybody in the NBA circles that same question, THEY WOULD LAUGH in your face!! Even if Pip's peak numbers were 18 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, and world class defense, that is HOF kind of material.

His peak numbers HAPPENED to be 22 points with the same kind of assist and rebound numbers. I just think Pip was TOO REVOLUTIONARY NOT TO BE GREAT! U have great players AND THEN u have guys who redefine their position. Pip REDEFINED the SF position. U are basically taking Hondo type attributes and putting them in a 6'8 freakish athletic body.

At some point, it would have all come together for Pippen. But with MJ, it may have came together quicker though... Which BY THE WAY is what the GOAT is supposed to do for his teammates.

The reason why Pip would have been great no matter what IS BECAUSE of his floor game. His passing and defensive versatility in particular. His passing, athletic ability, rebounding, and defense is ABSOLUTELY in the TOP TIER among the great SF's. Even WITHOUT MJ, he would have shined in those areas.

[3ball]

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_jackson_100730.html

So when you use quotes from random players to fuel your bullshit agenda thats fine.

But when someone uses a quote from the GOAT coach that was always around both MJ and Pip it somehow isn't legit?


It isn't complicated - if you know anything about the game, that quote was clearly red meat for some dumb reporter.

No NBA wing needs someone to show them how to "get the steps right" on a reverse pivot and dunk with left hand... It's ridiculous... This wouldn't even be a thought in your mind if you knew the game.

And that demonstrates the value of having experience playing and having proper hoops understanding - you're able to recognize the bullshit quotes from the real ones.. Coaches DO give bullshit quotes all the time - so it isn't a worthless exercise to delineate between the two - unless you think everything anyone says should be believed.. :yaohappy:

[OldSchoolBBall]

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]The only bullshit is between your ears.

When Jackson and his staff emerged a few minutes before practice started, they saw Pippen and Michael Jordan on the side of the court working on a segment of the team

[Paul George 24]

Once again, I think people are getting out of hand with MJ's impact on Pip. From what I'm hearing, some posters are saying Pip ONLY became a great player MAINLY because of MJ. If you SAME POSTERS asked anybody in the NBA circles that same question, THEY WOULD LAUGH in your face!! Even if Pip's peak numbers were 18 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, and world class defense, that is HOF kind of material.

His peak numbers HAPPENED to be 22 points with the same kind of assist and rebound numbers. I just think Pip was TOO REVOLUTIONARY NOT TO BE GREAT! U have great players AND THEN u have guys who redefine their position. Pip REDEFINED the SF position. U are basically taking Hondo type attributes and putting them in a 6'8 freakish athletic body.

At some point, it would have all come together for Pippen. But with MJ, it may have came together quicker though... Which BY THE WAY is what the GOAT is supposed to do for his teammates.

The reason why Pip would have been great no matter what IS BECAUSE of his floor game. His passing and defensive versatility in particular. His passing, athletic ability, rebounding, and defense is ABSOLUTELY in the TOP TIER among the great SF's. Even WITHOUT MJ, he would have shined in those areas.
pippen won't developed legendary defence without jordan pratice him every game

[bizil]

pippen won't developed legendary defence without jordan pratice him every game

LMAO!!!! Once again when u REVOLUTIONIZE your position, u already have that ability in u. Sure MJ enhanced Pip in many ways. But at the same time, Pip needs to be given credit for what he acheived. Some of these posts are starting to turn on some hater shit frankly!

[bizil]

pippen won't developed legendary defence without jordan pratice him every game

LMAO!!!! Once again when u REVOLUTIONIZE your position, u already have that ability in u. Sure MJ enhanced Pip in many ways. But at the same time, Pip needs to be given credit for what he acheived. Some of these posts are starting to turn on some hater shit frankly!

[bizil]

pippen won't developed legendary defence without jordan pratice him every game

LMAO!!!! Once again when u REVOLUTIONIZE your position, u already have that ability in u. Sure MJ enhanced Pip in many ways. But at the same time, Pip needs to be given credit for what he acheived. Some of these posts are starting to turn on some hater shit frankly!

[GimmeThat]

well, he went to Central Arkansas and averaged 23/10/4 as a Sr.

Rudy Gay averaged 15/6/2 as a sophomore before declaring for the NBA.


I won't post the combine numbers, because I'm sure that's close to the other 50% of the makeup of a GM's decision.



P.S. Devean George went to Augsburg (a NCAA Division III school) and averaged 27/11/2 as a Sr.

[3ball]

well, he went to Central Arkansas and averaged 23/10/4 as a Sr.

Rudy Gay averaged 15/6/2 as a sophomore before declaring for the NBA.

P.S. Devean George went to Augsburg (a NCAA Division III school) and averaged 27/11/2 as a Sr.


Pippen was a towel-boy at Central Arkansas - literally... He wasn't a scholarship player.. He served players their water.. Seriously - that's how he started out - virtually EVERYTHING had to go right for this guy to make it - he's the luckiest player ever, literally.

Pippen is better overall, but Gay is a better breakdown player off the dribble and he has a better pull-up jumper... Basically, Gay is a better shooter and has a superior isolation repertoire.

Pippen was considered not good at iso's - he got his points in the flow and he generally only penetrated in the halfcourt when there was an opening or the defender was off-balance..

And of course, he can't shoot worth a lick - he's worse than Lebron... His touch has similar, stone-hands, big man-esque mechanical nature (https://media.giphy.com/media/TmnwWY6ALWeUo/giphy.gif), like Dwight Howard or John Salley.

[TripleA]

This thread may be the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Scottie Pippens career without Michael Jordan shits on Rudy Gay. Rudy Gay can't tie Pippens shoes.
Rudy Gay made the playoffs once. The Raptors became better when he left. The Grizzlies became better when he left. Rudy Gay has never been an all star or an all NBA player.

[3ball]

This thread may be the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Scottie Pippens career without Michael Jordan shits on Rudy Gay. Rudy Gay can't tie Pippens shoes.
Rudy Gay made the playoffs once. The Raptors became better when he left. the Grizzlies became better when he left. Rudy Gay has never been a all star or all NBA player.
That's the whole point - without Jordan, Pippen would be Rudy Gay.

Pippen was a 7 ppg rookie - Gay was a better rookie and 2nd year player than Pippen - you realize that right?.. But it's a good thing Pippen had Jordan.

Without Jordan, Pippen is just another 15-16 ppg scorer that never does anything.. how many guys like that are there in NBA history?... hundreds, maybe thousands

[TripleA]

That's the whole point - without Jordan, Pippen would be Rudy Gay.

Pippen was a 7 ppg rookie - Gay was a better rookie and 2nd year player than Pippen - you realize that right?

Without Jordan, Pippen is just another 15-17 ppg scorer that never does anything.. how many guys like that are there in NBA history?... thousands and thousands.

Scottie Pippen made the NBA All First team without Jordan.
You realize that right.
He made the all defensive team without Jordan.
Without Jordan he would still shit on Rudy Gay.

[3ball]

Scottie Pippen made the NBA All First team without Jordan.
You realize that right.
He was made the all defensive team without Jordan.
After Jordan made him better and after he got a ton of savvy championship experience by 3-peating on the back of Jordan's 35/7/7/51%... duuuhh

Again, Pippen was a 7 ppg rookie - Gay was a better rookie and 2nd year player than Pippen - you realize that right?.. But it's a good thing Pippen had Jordan.

Without Jordan, Pippen is just another 15-17 ppg scorer that never does anything.. how many guys like that are there in NBA history?... thousands and thousands.

[andgar923]

It's been proved over and over that
MJ made Pip.

There's been several teammates, coaches, opponents, journalists, execs, that have stated this.

There have been a few reports of MJ making
pip cry, embarrass him etc etc

Pip was WEAK he used to go home crying, calling Grant and wanting to quit.

These are FACTS

Sure players have developed, but not when they were this weak. MJ was criticized for not making his teammates better.

MJ's greatest accomplishment was making Pip into a name we now know.

Once again we see Pip's true colors without MJ. He needs to rely on someone else even outside the NBA.

Pip forever a beta relying on someone else.

[zeerghit]

After Jordan made him better and after he got a ton of savvy championship experience by 3-peating on the back of Jordan's 35/7/7/51%... duuuhh

Again, Pippen was a 7 ppg rookie - Gay was a better rookie and 2nd year player than Pippen - you realize that right?.. But it's a good thing Pippen had Jordan.

Without Jordan, Pippen is just another 15-17 ppg scorer that never does anything.. how many guys like that are there in NBA history?... thousands and thousands.
burn yourself u piece of shit

[TripleA]

Without Jordan, Pippen is just another 15-17 ppg scorer that never does anything.. how many guys like that are there in NBA history?... thousands and thousands.

So right there that is a Speculative fallacy. Your treating the scenario that Pippen without Jordan will cause him to be a 15-17 ppg scorer who doesn't do anything. That is entirely speculation not grounded in fact. Their many outcomes that could happen. You know what is fact that Pippen was a great defender and good passer. That he made playoffs without Jordan.

[Bawkish]

Pip has a lot more room to operate because if you're playing with the most watched/guarded player during that time, you get to maximize your potential

combine that with being constantly berated by MJ every practice to push harder

have you seen the video of Pip getting bullied by Oak in the Bull's dugout during Pip's rookie year? i can't imagine THAT Pip would be revolutionary i his position if he were playing somewhere else

[Dr Hawk]

So right there that is a Speculative fallacy. Your treating the scenario that Pippen without Jordan will cause him to be a 15-17 ppg scorer who doesn't do anything. That is entirely speculation not grounded in fact. Their many outcomes that could happen. You know what is fact that Pippen was a great defender and good passer. That he made playoffs without Jordan.

After having played and practiced with Jordan for years. It is no coincidence that one of the best perimeter defensive players of all-time had to deal with the #23

[3ball]

Pip has a lot more room to operate because if you're playing with the most watched/guarded player during that time, you get to maximize your potential

combine that with being constantly berated by MJ every practice to push harder

have you seen the video of Pip getting bullied by Oak in the Bull's dugout during Pip's rookie year? i can't imagine THAT Pip would be revolutionary i his position if he were playing somewhere else


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU


:roll: :biggums: :yaohappy: :milton


MJ turned THAT GUY into a man, according to Jerry Krause:


[indent][I]

[andgar923]

Pip has a lot more room to operate because if you're playing with the most watched/guarded player during that time, you get to maximize your potential

combine that with being constantly berated by MJ every practice to push harder

have you seen the video of Pip getting bullied by Oak in the Bull's dugout during Pip's rookie year? i can't imagine THAT Pip would be revolutionary i his position if he were playing somewhere else
The NBA drafts tons of players with talent. It takes more than talent to make it, it takes even more to become an all star and even more to become a HOFer. And THAT is MJ's greatest achievement.

MJ knew he wouldn't win alone, so he had to mold Pip into a great player.

Pip deserves credit for not following through on quitting.

[andgar923]

After having played and practiced with Jordan for years. It is no coincidence that one of the best perimeter defensive players of all-time had to deal with the #23
That's what these lil kids don't get.

[TripleA]

That's what these lil kids don't get.

Who deserves more Credit for becoming a great player Pippen or Jordan.
Was Jordan with him when he went from walk-on on a small school to the 5th pick of the NBA draft. Was Jordan with him when Jordan left and Pippen was third in MVP voting and took the Knicks to 7 games. The premise of the thread is that he would be Rudy Gay a cancer who makes ever team he is on marginally better or worse. Not that he would be an all time great player.

[andgar923]

Who deserves more Credit for becoming great player Pippen or Jordan.
Was Jordan with him when he went from walk on a small school to the 5th pick of the NBA draft. Was Jordan with him when he went to Jordan left and Pippen was third in MVP voting and took the Knicks to 7 games. The premise of the thread is that he would be Rudy Gay a cancer who makes ever team he is marginally better or worse. Not that he would be a all time great player.
Once AGAIN.

Without MJ to mold him there is NO 1995 season. What's so hard to grasp?

Also, there's been a number of NBA players drafted from small colleges that have good careers. there's no shame in stating MJ made him since most players had a mentor.

Pip just happened to have GOAT show him the ropes and how to man the f*ck up.

[TripleA]

Once AGAIN.

Without MJ to mold him there is NO 1995 season. What's so hard to grasp?

Also, there's been a number of NBA players drafted from small colleges that have good careers. there's no shame in stating MJ made him since most players had a mentor.

Pip just happened to have GOAT show him the ropes and how to man the f*ck up.

Who deserves more credit for Pippen becoming a NBA player Pippen or Jordan? Who deserves more credit for becoming a All-Star?

[GimmeThat]

1. if you count the Bill Russell rings as legitimate rings
2. off-season conditioning options are available to players in a universal standard format (despite geographical location)

most of the arguments being made stands no valid point.

these arguments factors in era.


you can't blame/fault someone for being smart
neither can you take credit away from someone's excellency

in the eyes seeking brilliancy

[andgar923]

Who deserves more credit for Pippen becoming a NBA player Pippen or Jordan? Who deserves more credit for becoming a All-Star?
Stupid question because there's hundreds of players that make the league yet few last and even less become all stars.

Pip deserves credit for being submissive. Not many players would allow themselves to be molded.

Imagine if MJ got Augmon instead?

Augmon is a blood and won't take MJ's style of leadership, he'd demand a trade or fight with MJ.

But Pip took it, he let MJ use him as a canvas and much to his credit didn't quit no matter how much he wanted too. And we all know how much Pip loves to quit.

[3ball]

good points.

[3ball]

Stupid question because there's hundreds of players that make the league yet few last and even less become all stars.

Pip deserves credit for being submissive. Not many players would allow themselves to be molded.

Imagine if MJ got Augmon instead?

Augmon is a blood and won't take MJ's style of leadership, he'd demand a trade or fight with MJ.

But Pip took it, he let MJ use him as a canvas and much to his credit didn't quit no matter how much he wanted too. And we all know how much Pip loves to quit.


Very true, but I'm not sure he deserves "credit" for his natural nature.

Pippen was impressionable - that's the kind of young man he was... He would've been molded by whoever the leader of the team was.

It's just a good thing he wasn't drafted to Derrick Coleman's team, for example..

[TripleA]

So Pippen deserves no credit and Jordan made him a good player all by himself.

[IGOTGAME]

So Pippen deserves no credit and Jordan made him a good player all by himself.

pretty much. I'm assuming if the Vin Baker was drafted onto the Bulls then Jordan would have turned him into Tim Duncan and fixed his drug problem.

One thing I've learned in life is that nobody makes anyone...you have to want it yourself.

[Bawkish]

pretty much. I'm assuming if the Vin Baker was drafted onto the Bulls then Jordan would have turned him into Tim Duncan and fixed his drug problem.

One thing I've learned in life is that nobody makes anyone...you have to want it yourself.

Pip does definitely wants it, and not only him but also the entire team

they all got influenced by MJ's competitive aura that makes them special, he's like a drill sergeant full metal jacket style

[warriorfan]

pretty much. I'm assuming if the Vin Baker was drafted onto the Bulls then Jordan would have turned him into Tim Duncan and fixed his drug problem.

One thing I've learned in life is that nobody makes anyone...you have to want it yourself.

Just because you want it doesn't mean you will get it. You have to have someone to show you how. (Michael Jordan).

[LAZERUSS]

And Pippen and Grant showed MJ how to win.

And both of those guys played on winning teams after MJ. Hell, Grant dramatically improved almost every team he played for (unlike the laughable Bosh, who has been a career loser without Lebron.) He even won another ring post-MJ.

[hitmanyr2k]

Playing against the best (or any seasoned vet for that matter) in practice is going to help you get better. Not everyone Jordan played with suddenly turned to gold. In fact it usually worked out just the opposite :oldlol: Pippen had to want to get better, work on his game in the offseason and improve, which he did all on his own. I think he would have had that work ethic and would have improved as a player no matter where he went just because of his background and the hard work it took just to get to the NBA in the first place. The guy came from a poor family with a father stricken to a wheelchair which I'm sure gave him that much more incentive to succeed in the NBA rather than get in the league and blow such a big opportunity. He didn't come into the NBA during an era when unproven players were getting max contracts so hehad to work for that money. Add to that fact that he had to recover from back surgery after his rookie year and prove he could remain productive gave him the drive (and fear) to work hard or lose his place on the team. It sure as hell wasn't all Jordan as these mythologists would have people believe lol.

And Phil Jackson should get credit for maximizing Scottie's skillset. Pippen already had point guard skills coming into the NBA which Phil Jackson recognized and rather than play Pippen as a traditional SF he made him a point forward to take advantage of those skills.

[K Xerxes]

What an absurd thread. These hypotheticals are wildly speculative and meaningless - do you realise how many different factors are at play in determining how good a player is at basketball? What we do know is exactly what Pippen turned out to be - a HOF caliber, incredibly versatile small forward who could defend on the perimeter perhaps as well as anyone in NBA history and showed that he could lead a team to the playoffs while putting up 22-8-6 at his peak. This is all that matters. Attempting to quantify the impact Jordan had on Pippen's development is impossible, and pointless. It's akin to saying that Jordan might not be in the NBA if he had no siblings and wasn't instilled with a burning competitive edge from day 1. Or what would he turn out as if Dean Smith wasn't his college coach? Who the **** knows and who the **** cares.

[LAZERUSS]

What an absurd thread. These hypotheticals are wildly speculative and meaningless - do you realise how many different factors are at play in determining how good a player is at basketball? What we do know is exactly what Pippen turned out to be - a HOF caliber, incredibly versatile small forward who could defend on the perimeter perhaps as well as anyone in NBA history and showed that he could lead a team to the playoffs while putting up 22-8-6 at his peak. This is all that matters. Attempting to quantify the impact Jordan had on Pippen's development is impossible, and pointless. It's akin to saying that Jordan might not be in the NBA if he had no siblings and wasn't instilled with a burning competitive edge from day 1. Or what would he turn out as if Dean Smith wasn't his college coach? Who the **** knows and who the **** cares.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

The bottom line...Pippen was a GREAT HOF player.

And we could post just as many hypotheticals the other way too.

[Euroleague]

This is how I picture warriorfan and 3ball....

https://media1.giphy.com/media/vNzUu0fT4mnWE/200.gif