What would MJ's stats have been in 2007 Finals??.. Here's a calculation

[3ball]

.
BACKGROUND


It's hard to say - there was no hand-checking, no flooding (flooding wasn't in vogue until well after 2008), and defenders had to abide by new defensive 3 seconds rule.

In 2007, league-wide ORtg was on upward trajectory - it reached an all-time high by 2009 (108.3) because teams had yet to figure out the optimal way (flooding) to play defense under the new rules introduced in 2005 (the aforementioned defensive 3 seconds and hand-check ban).

Given the all-time easiest defensive environment (hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds, no flooding) - what would MJ's stats have been?



CALCULATION


The best way to figure this out is to use comparables - let's look at Kobe's stats vs. Spurs in 2008 ECF (29.2 ppg.. 53.3 fg.. 58.3 ts) and multiply by a factor commensurate with the gap between MJ and Kobe's per 100 possession stats in playoffs.


Kobe Per 100 Poss 2001-2012 Playoffs:. 36.1 pts (includes Shaq years)
Kobe Per 100 Poss 2006-2012 Playoffs:. 38.2 pts (post-Shaq)
__________________________________________________
Average......................................... 37.0 pts


Jordan Per 100 Poss for playoff career:. 43.3 pts
__________________________________________________
Jordan's advantage.......................... 6.3 pts, or 17.0% higher (1.17 factor)



Using the same methodology, Jordan's FG% was higher by a factor of 1.067, and his TS was higher by a factor 1.027.. Using these factors, here's MJ's stats vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals:

Kobe's 29.2 ppg x 1.17 = 34.2 ppg

Kobe's 53.3 fg% x 1.067 = 56.9 fg

Kobe's 58.5 ts% x 1.027 = 60.1 ts



CONCLUSIONS


First of all, it seems astonishing that Kobe's 29.2 ppg on 53.3% against the Spurs was so much better than Lebron's 22.1 ppg on 35% to begin with.

But when you look at the stats, it makes more sense - Lebron shot 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) from midrange in the 2007 Finals (midrange was 30% of his shots).. Whereas Kobe shot 50.0% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) from midrange against the Spurs (midrange was 43% of his shots)...

Lebron simply can't shoot, which is nothing new - doesn't he currently rank LAST in efficiency on shots outside the paint?

And remember - in 2007, there was no hand-checking, no flooding (flooding wasn't in vogue until well after 2008), and defenders had to abide by new defensive 3 seconds rule.. This is part of the reason Kobe was able to run roughshod over the Spurs, along with his great midrange shooting.. But Lebron's horrific shooting prevented him from taking the same advantage of the easy defensive environment.
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[Bankaii]

They'd be nonexistent, cause he wouldn't make the Finals.

No Pippen = 1-9.

[3ball]

They'd be nonexistent, cause he wouldn't make the Finals.


Riiiight..

Against the Pistons in ECF, Lebron had 10 points in Game 1 on 5-15, and 19 points in Game 2 on 7-19, yet the Cavs lost by only 3 points each time... MJ wins the first two games EASILY and is up 2-0 going into Game 3, instead of down 0-2 like Lebron..

It couldn't be any clearer.. Lebron's stats thru 4 games were 22 ppg on 43%... This would be the worst playoff performance of Jordan's career, BY FAR.

Overall, Lebron averaged 25 ppg on 44.9% for the series, and 25 ppg on 41% for the playoffs as a whole - again, these would be the worst playoff performances of MJ's career.

So even though Jordan is capable of replicating the Game 5 performance - he wouldn't need to - his Cavs would be further ahead in the series because his stats would've been far better than Lebron's up until that point.

Also, given the all-time easiest defensive environment at the time (hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds, no flooding) - MJ's stats would've been insane in the Finals, just like Kobe's were, as shown in OP.. However, Lebron can't shoot, so he wasn't able to take the same advantage of the easy defensive environment - a real missed opportunity to at least rack up stats and have great finals averages going forward.
.

[JohnFreeman]

Riiiight..

Lebron's 2007 playoff stats were 25 ppg on 41%, including 25.7 ppg on 44.8% against the 53-win Pistons.

Those would be the worst playoff performances of Jordan's career.
Well teams had to defend Pippen as well, Jordan had it easy.

[dubeta]

1-9

[3ball]

Well teams had to defend Pippen as well, Jordan had it easy.


Look at Kobe's stats against the same Spurs team in 2008 ECF:

29.2 ppg.. 53.3 fg.. 58.5 ts

So even Kobe's stats destroy what Lebron did.. And we can multiply Kobe's stats by factor to figure out MJ's stats (as shown in the OP).





Jordan had it easy.


Btw, it shouldn't be a surprise that Kobe's stats were so much better than Lebron's - Lebron shot 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) from midrange in the 2007 Finals (midrange shots were 27 of his 90 FGA, or 30% of his shots).. Whereas Kobe shot 50.0% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) from midrange against the Spurs (midrange shots were 52 of his 120 FGA, or 43% of his shots)..

Lebron simply can't shoot, which is nothing new - doesn't he currently rank LAST in efficiency on shots outside the paint?

Also, in 2007, there was no hand-checking, no flooding (flooding wasn't in vogue until well after 2008), and defenders had to abide by new defensive 3 seconds rule.. This easy defensive environment is part of the reason Kobe was able to run roughshod over the Spurs, along with his great midrange shooting.. But Lebron's horrific shooting prevented him from taking the same advantage of the easy defensive environment.

[3ball]

1-9


Look at Kobe's stats against the same Spurs team in 2008 ECF: 29.2 ppg.. 53.3 fg.. 58.5 ts

So even Kobe's stats destroy what Lebron did.. And we can multiply Kobe's stats by an appropriate factor to figure out MJ's stats (as shown in the OP).

Btw, it shouldn't be a surprise that Kobe's stats were so much better than Lebron's - Lebron shot 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) from midrange in the 2007 Finals (midrange shots were 27 of his 90 FGA, or 30% of his shots).. Whereas Kobe shot 50.0% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) from midrange against the Spurs (midrange shots were 52 of his 120 FGA, or 43% of his shots)..

Lebron simply can't shoot, which is nothing new - doesn't he currently rank LAST in efficiency on shots outside the paint?

Also, in 2007, there was no hand-checking, no flooding (flooding wasn't in vogue until well after 2008), and defenders had to abide by new defensive 3 seconds rule.. This easy defensive environment is part of the reason Kobe was able to run roughshod over the Spurs, along with his great midrange shooting.. But Lebron's horrific shooting prevented him from taking the same advantage of the easy defensive environment.

[dubeta]

LeBron is a better jumpshooter than MJ


How else do you explain LeBrons higher 3 point percentage for his career?


BTW the gap widens when you take out Jordan's 3 point percentage in the shorter 3 point line era




Cliffs: Jordan would have shot a lot worse vs the Spurs

[TripleA]

:applause: good job 3brick you just stated that Michael Jordan is better than Lebron. Which we already know. So what's the point of this thread.

[stalkerforlife]

Damn...Kobe's so much better than Bran.

[Straight_Ballin]

5/7 >2/6

Oh, did I stutter? Everybody gone all quiet and sh1t? About a minute ago it was like an evening at the Apollo up in this motherfvcker, now all of a sudden it's quiet as a church. :lol

[Bankaii]

5/7 >2/6

Oh, did I stutter? Everybody gone all quiet and sh1t? About a minute ago it was like an evening at the Apollo up in this motherfvcker, now all of a sudden it's quiet as a church. :lol
Wtf are you talking about?

How is someone supposed to respond to you while you're in the middle of typing your shit post, senile old fool.

[SouBeachTalents]

5/7 >2/6

Oh, did I stutter? Everybody gone all quiet and sh1t? About a minute ago it was like an evening at the Apollo up in this motherfvcker, now all of a sudden it's quiet as a church. :lol

https://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/TN_big_brother_cringe.gif

[JohnFreeman]

Wtf are you talking about?

How is someone supposed to respond to you while you're in the middle of typing your shit post, senile old fool.
:oldlol:

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Well teams had to defend Pippen as well, Jordan had it easy.


In the 1st Round of 2006 playoffs, my ***** Bonzi Wells was a 1-man team against the Spurs - he averaged 23 ppg and 12 rpg on 60.9% fg.... and 65.6% ts

Of course, shooting ability was the main factor - Bonzi shot 50.0% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) from midrange against the Spurs, compared to Lebron's 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) in 2007 Finals.

Lebron simply can't shoot, which is nothing new - doesn't he currently rank LAST in efficiency on shots outside the paint?

Also, in 2007, there was no hand-checking, no flooding (flooding wasn't in vogue until well after 2008), and defenders had to abide by new defensive 3 seconds rule.. This easy defensive environment is part of the reason Kobe was able to run roughshod over the Spurs, along with his great midrange shooting.. But Lebron's horrific shooting prevented him from taking the same advantage of the easy defensive environment.
.

[3ball]

.
Wings that faced Spurs in 2006-2008 playoffs


2006 First Round - Bonzi Wells - 23/12 on 60.9%

2006 Second Round - Dirk Nowitski - 27 ppg on 53%

2007 First Round - Carmelo Anthony - 27 ppg on 48%

2007 Finals - Lebron James - 22 ppg on 35%

2008 WCF - Kobe Bryant - 29 ppg on 53%



Which one doesn't belong?

[OldSchoolBBall]

None of those guys were defended the way SA defended Lebron, since Lebron is more of a threat than most of them, and the one he wasn't more of a threat than (Kobe) had way more offensive help on the floor and the GOAT coaching/system in place.

I think Jordan definitely has a better series against SA than Lebron did, but I doubt he'd win the series if he had that same Cavs team. But his numbers would have been well beyond Lebron's. SA basically dared Lebron to shoot jumpers all day, and Jordan - even 24-26 year old pre-champion Jordan - would have rained them all day.

[Smoke117]

...everybody already agrees that Jordan is better and greater than Lebron...you really need to find something more productive to do with your time.

[Paul George 24]

mj would sweep the spurs

[SouBeachTalents]

mj would sweep the spurs

He wouldn't even miss a shot the entire series

[3ball]

MJ would sweep the Spurs


6 games.. obviously, manu or bowen aren't slowing him down.
.

[KobesFinger]

.
Wings that faced Spurs in 2006-2008 playoffs


2006 First Round - Bonzi Wells - 23/12 on 60.9%

2006 Second Round - Dirk Nowitski - 27 ppg on 53%

2007 First Round - Carmelo Anthony - 27 ppg on 48%

2007 Finals - Lebron James - 22 ppg on 35%

2008 WCF - Kobe Bryant - 29 ppg on 53%



Which one doesn't belong?

Dirk doesn't belong, he's a PF

[3ball]

Dirk doesn't belong, he's a PF



He frequently plays facing the basket and very much like a wing player... And the point of the thread is that Lebron's horrific shooting ability prevented him from doing better in 2007 Finals, whereas Dirk's great shooting allowed him to do well.

But anyway, how about now?.. Who doesn't belong?


2006 First Round - Bonzi Wells - 23/12 on 60.9%

2007 First Round - Carmelo Anthony - 27 ppg on 48%

2007 Finals - Lebron James - 22 ppg on 35%

2008 WCF - Kobe Bryant - 29 ppg on 53%
.

[dhsilv]

ok I admit I had to look at see what this idiot would say. he ignored teammates and their output. As always 3ball remains a complete idiot.

[3ball]

ok I admit I had to look at see what this idiot would say. he ignored teammates and their output. As always 3ball remains a complete idiot.
Like I told OldSchool, the fact that Kobe wasn't a 1-man team meant other people commanded the ball - Kobe had to share touches with Gasol, Odom, Bynum, etc...

Kobe stats (and anyone's stats) will be higher if they're a 1-man team - this is common knowledge and something every poster has argued at one point or another - but now when it suits you, having great teammates that command the ball somehow boosts Kobe's opportunity for individual stats.. You guys are ridiculous..

Unlike Lebron, Kobe had to play within a system and let other players playmake and get touches - he couldn't just do his thing and have them be play-finishers when he needed.

[Dr Hawk]

Years Jordan would have won since being drafted in 2004 instead of LEbron:

06,07,09,10,11,12,13

[3ball]

Years Jordan would have won since being drafted in 2004 instead of LEbron:

06,07,09,10,11,12,13


I disagree with a few of them.. In 2006, MJ would lose in ECF to Shaq/Wade/Zo/Payton/Walker/everybody

In 2007, they win because MJ's stats would be FAR better than Lebron's 22 ppg on 35%, and they almost won Games 3 and 4 despite Lebron's horrific stats - the Cavs had all the defense they needed - they just needed a volume scorer to make their offense good like their defense.

MJ loses in 2008 ECF to Celtics.. In 2009, they lose to Kobe/Pau, and it would be in the Finals!!!!... But they win in 2010 because Lebron's team was actually stacked that year - ditto for 2011, 2012, 2013.

So MJ would win in 07, 10, 11, 12, 13... And I would add 2014 because that Heat team (and all Lebron's teams) would play completely differently with Jordan..

It's a statistical fact that Lebron reduces (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the APG of Wade/Bosh (and all his teammates), while increasing their assisted rate - so he turns them from playmakers to play-finishers...

It would be the opposite with Jordan - Bosh would get to do his bread-and-butter of playmaking and scoring from the elbow out of triple-threat... Wade would get to handle the ball like Pippen did... The Heat would be multiple playmaker team with everyone playing to full capacity alongside Jordan, as opposed to a 1-playmaker team with everyone playing below capacity alongside Lebron.

[3ball]

He wouldn't even miss a shot the entire series
:hammerhead:

[3ball]

oh shit, I just saw oldschool's post... :lol

i should respond

[3ball]

None of those guys were defended the way SA defended Lebron, since Lebron is more of a threat

SA basically dared Lebron to shoot jumpers all day


Which one is it - did the Spurs "dare" Lebron to shoot, or defend him tougher?.. You just contradicted yourself..

The difference between Bonzi's 61% and Lebron's 35% isn't because the Spurs did magic tricks on defense against Lebron.. It's because Lebron shot 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) from midrange (30% of offense) and 20% on 3-pointers (22% of offense) - otoh, he shot 65.7% at the rim, so his JUMPSHOT was the reason for his horrible stats.

Otoh, Bonzi shot 50.0% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) from midrange, so his jumpshot was far more effective, just like Kobe, Melo, and Dirk.

Nonetheless, people refuse to accept the statistical reality that Lebron had a horrific performance because he simply can't shoot!





(Kobe) had way more offensive help on the floor


It's common knowledge that a player's individual stats are better when they're a 1-man show and don't have quality teammates that command touches..

I won't bother citing any examples (although you can just look at MJ's career, or Kobe, or anyone's) - this is standard.





(Kobe) had the GOAT coaching/system in place


Am I talking to OldSchool, or sdot_thadon?

The triangle doesn't help Kobe's stats - it isn't designed to get him off - the triangle helps the role players and is designed to get them off.

And btw, if the triangle was the goat system, it would work WITHOUT needing 3 of the greatest players of all time (MJ, Shaq, Kobe).. When championships were won with the triangle, it wasn't coincidence that they were on the team.. Just look at Melo's Knicks - how good has the triangle worked for them?





his numbers would have been well beyond Lebron's. SA basically dared Lebron to shoot jumpers all day, and Jordan - even 24-26 year old pre-champion Jordan - would have rained them all day.


So wait - you don't think 22 or 23 year-old Jordan could've "rained jumpshots"???.. This is factually incorrect - in Jordan's 63 point game, 12 of his 22 made field goals were 2-point jumpshots outside the paint (which is nba.com's definition of "midrange"):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRu0x_bQeY


3 more jumpshots were made slightly inside the paint... Overall, 15 of his 22 made field goals were jumpshots in Jordan's record-breaking Game 2.

In Game 1 (his 49 point game), 9 of his 18 made field goals were jumpshots outside the paint (plus 1 more jumper that was slightly inside the paint):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wId1-GdesWU


So in Games 1 and 2 combined, 21 out of his 40 made field goals were 2-point jumpshots outside the paint, with another 4 jumpers coming slightly inside the paint.. Overall, 25 of his 40 made field goals were jumpshots... If breaking the all-time playoff scoring record against the Celtics on mostly midrange jumpers doesn't prove that MJ could "rain jumpshots" before he was 24, than nothing ever could or WOULD prove it
.

[GimmeThat]

And the Cavs handed Kyrie Irving a max contract


but no, seriously, collecting stats have nothing to do with what Moneyball the movie was trying to portray.
would be odd if you actually need a Yale degree to make it work, wouldn't it.

[dhsilv]

and still no thought about the importance of teammates....

[3ball]

and still no thought about the importance of teammates....


It's common knowledge that a player's individual stats are better when they're a 1-man show and don't have quality teammates that command touches..

This is obvious common knowledge, so I won't bother citing any examples (although you can just look at MJ's career, or Kobe, or ANYONE's... Lebron's for that matter - his Cleveland stats vs. his Heat stats) - this is standard...

Lebron's 1-man team gave him more opportunity to put up numbers, just like it always did in Cleveland, and just like it does for all players..

Btw, every ISH poster has argued that having great teammates lowers a star player's stats - but now when it suits you, having great teammates that command the ball somehow boosts Kobe's opportunity for individual stats.. :hammerhead: .. You guys are ridiculous..

The difference between Bonzi's 61% and Lebron's 35% isn't because the Spurs did magic tricks on defense against Lebron.. It's because Lebron shot 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) from midrange (30% of offense) and 20% on 3-pointers (22% of offense) - otoh, he shot 65.7% at the rim, so his JUMPSHOT was clearly the reason for his horrible stats.. Lebron simply can't shoot, so his stats were horrific, while Bonzi, Kobe, Dirk, and Melo all can, so their stats were great - these are the statistical facts.
.

[sdot_thadon]

He wouldn't have even made the finals. Lebron needed a miracle game just to see the spurs in 07 with that cast. 29 of the last 30 points against a top 3 defense. You'd have to believe Mj would replicate that performance, to do so would be idiotic seeing as in all his legendary games he'd never done anything along those lines himself. Isn't that how it works 3ball?

What did Mj do in his ecf game 5 in the exact same situation? :rolleyes:

Did Mj even face a top 3 defense in consecutive rounds, let alone the finals? Did he even face a team as good as the spurs in any series?

Hypothetical failure.:hammerhead:

[LAZERUSS]

He wouldn't have even made the finals. Lebron needed a miracle game just to see the spurs in 07 with that cast. 29 of the last 30 points against a top 3 defense. You'd have to believe Mj would replicate that performance, to do so would be idiotic seeing as in all his legendary games he'd never done anything along those lines himself. Isn't that how it works 3ball?

What did Mj do in his ecf game 5 in the exact same situation? :rolleyes:

Did Mj even face a top 3 defense in consecutive rounds, let alone the finals? Did he even face a team as good as the spurs in any series?

Hypothetical failure.:hammerhead:

Well, he never beat a team as great as that Spurs team. He was swept by the '86 and '87 Celtics, and was beaten three straight years by the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. Only when the Pistons crumbled, and only when Pippen and Grant came up huge, did he finally knock the Bad Boys off.

[imnew09]

Which one is it - did the Spurs "dare" Lebron to shoot, or defend him tougher?.. You just contradicted yourself..

The difference between Bonzi's 61% and Lebron's 35% isn't because the Spurs did magic tricks on defense against Lebron.. It's because Lebron shot 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) from midrange (30% of offense) and 20% on 3-pointers (22% of offense) - otoh, he shot 65.7% at the rim, so his JUMPSHOT was the reason for his horrible stats.

Otoh, Bonzi shot 50.0% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) from midrange, so his jumpshot was far more effective, just like Kobe, Melo, and Dirk.

Nonetheless, people refuse to accept the statistical reality that Lebron had a horrific performance because he simply can't shoot!



It's common knowledge that a player's individual stats are better when they're a 1-man show and don't have quality teammates that command touches..

I won't bother citing any examples (although you can just look at MJ's career, or Kobe, or anyone's) - this is standard.



Am I talking to OldSchool, or sdot_thadon?

The triangle doesn't help Kobe's stats - it isn't designed to get him off - the triangle helps the role players and is designed to get them off.

And btw, if the triangle was the goat system, it would work WITHOUT needing 3 of the greatest players of all time (MJ, Shaq, Kobe).. When championships were won with the triangle, it wasn't coincidence that they were on the team.. Just look at Melo's Knicks - how good has the triangle worked for them?



So wait - you don't think 22 or 23 year-old Jordan could've "rained jumpshots"???.. This is factually incorrect - in Jordan's 63 point game, 12 of his 22 made field goals were 2-point jumpshots outside the paint (which is nba.com's definition of "midrange"):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRu0x_bQeY


3 more jumpshots were made slightly inside the paint... Overall, 15 of his 22 made field goals were jumpshots in Jordan's record-breaking Game 2.

In Game 1 (his 49 point game), 9 of his 18 made field goals were jumpshots outside the paint (plus 1 more jumper that was slightly inside the paint):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wId1-GdesWU


So in Games 1 and 2 combined, 21 out of his 40 made field goals were 2-point jumpshots outside the paint, with another 4 jumpers coming slightly inside the paint.. Overall, 25 of his 40 made field goals were jumpshots... If breaking the all-time playoff scoring record against the Celtics on mostly midrange jumpers doesn't prove that MJ could "rain jumpshots" before he was 24, than nothing ever could or WOULD prove it
.


3Ball dropping some bomb knowledge ethering these punk a$$ b*tches!
Keep rolling man, very few knowledgeable basketball posters nowadays

[feyki]

Jordan averaged 44-6-6 and got swept . Jordan couldn't beat 07 Spurs with 07 Cavs team .

[LAZERUSS]

Jordan averaged 44-6-6 and got swept . Jordan couldn't beat 07 Spurs with 07 Cavs team .

100% agreed.

One man was not going to beat the Spurs.

[Hey Yo]

He wouldn't have even made the finals. Lebron needed a miracle game just to see the spurs in 07 with that cast. 29 of the last 30 points against a top 3 defense. You'd have to believe Mj would replicate that performance, to do so would be idiotic seeing as in all his legendary games he'd never done anything along those lines himself. Isn't that how it works 3ball?

What did Mj do in his ecf game 5 in the exact same situation? :rolleyes:

Did Mj even face a top 3 defense in consecutive rounds, let alone the finals? Did he even face a team as good as the spurs in any series?

Hypothetical failure.:hammerhead:
LOL @ taking 8FGA in the biggest postseason game of his career. No way 89 Jordan prevails with 2007 Cavs.

[LAZERUSS]

LOL @ taking 8FGA in the biggest postseason game of his career. No way 89 Jordan prevails with 2007 Cavs.

He QUIT on that team. And that one game cost them the series.

[sdot_thadon]

LOL @ taking 8FGA in the biggest postseason game of his career. No way 89 Jordan prevails with 2007 Cavs.

100% agreed.

One man was not going to beat the Spurs.

Jordan averaged 44-6-6 and got swept . Jordan couldn't beat 07 Spurs with 07 Cavs team .

Well, he never beat a team as great as that Spurs team. He was swept by the '86 and '87 Celtics, and was beaten three straight years by the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. Only when the Pistons crumbled, and only when Pippen and Grant came up huge, did he finally knock the Bad Boys off.

Edit: couldn't miss this one:

He QUIT on that team. And that one game cost them the series.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Segatti]

They'd be nonexistent, cause he wouldn't make the Finals.

No Pippen = 1-9.

:oldlol: :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well, he never beat a team as great as that Spurs team. He was swept by the '86 and '87 Celtics, and was beaten three straight years by the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. Only when the Pistons crumbled, and only when Pippen and Grant came up huge, did he finally knock the Bad Boys off.

That Spurs team in 2007 was nothing to write home about. Had it not been for Amare being unjustly suspended, Phoenix beats the Spurs and they're just a footnote in history.

The Cav/Spurs series was decided in every 4th quarter, and LeBron had one of the worst series of his career against a team daring him to shoot. You defend Jordan that way and your ass is getting 40 dropped on you at the drop of a dime - but even if they played him "normally" or just respected his jumper, Mike would have beaten them in ways LeBron could only dream of. Hell his light verz, Kobe Bean, sonned the Spurs in dominant and epic fashion.

Not saying either Jordan or Kobe win with Cleveland, BUT lets not pretend they don't go HAM on the Spurs either.

[LAZERUSS]

That Spurs team in 2007 was nothing to write home about. Had it not been for Amare being unjustly suspended, Phoenix beats the Spurs and they're just a footnote in history.

The Cav/Spurs series was decided in every 4th quarter, and LeBron had one of the worst series of his career against a team daring him to shoot. You defend Jordan that way and your ass is getting 40 dropped on you at the drop of a dime - but even if they played him "normally" or just respected his jumper, Mike would have beaten them in ways LeBron could only dream of. Hell his light verz, Kobe Bean, sonned the Spurs in dominant and epic fashion.

Not saying either Jordan or Kobe win with Cleveland, BUT lets not pretend they don't go HAM on the Spurs either.

First of all, I am not saying that Lebron was the player that MJ was. He wasn't. But some here are basically blaming Lebron for losing that Finals. Again, put MJ on that same worthless Cavs roster, and he was not going to beat the Spurs. He may very well have played better (hell, almost a certainty), but he was not going to lead them to a win.

[3ball]

He wouldn't have even made the finals. Lebron needed a miracle game just to see the spurs in 07 with that cast. 29 of the last 30 points against a top 3 defense. You'd have to believe Mj would replicate that performance, to do so would be idiotic seeing as in all his legendary games he'd never done anything along those lines himself. Isn't that how it works 3ball?


MJ could replicate the performance, but he wouldn't need to - his Cavs would be further ahead in the series because his stats would've been far better than Lebron's up until that point.

The Cavs lost Games 1 and 2 by three points points each, despite getting only 10 points on 5-15 from Lebron in Game 1, and 19 points on 7-19 from Lebron in Game 2... MJ wins the first two games EASILY and is up 2-0 going into Game 3, instead of down 0-2 like Lebron..

Does that make sense?... It couldn't be any clearer.. Lebron's stats thru 4 games were 22 ppg on 43%... This would be the worst playoff performance of Jordan's career, BY FAR.

Overall, Lebron averaged 25 ppg on 44.9% for the series, and 25 ppg on 41% for the playoffs as a whole - again, these would be the worst playoff performances of MJ's career.. Why would you ASSUME Jordan's stats would be this bad, when they never were in his career?





Did Mj even face a top 3 defense in consecutive rounds, let alone the finals?


MJ faced many defenses tougher than the 2007 Spurs - the Spurs DRtg in the 2007 playoffs was 103.1... The 1998 Utah Jazz had a playoff DRtg of 100.4 - this is a lower playoff DRtg than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals.

But more importantly - in 2007, there was no hand-checking, no flooding (flooding wasn't in vogue until well after 2008), and defenders had to abide by new defensive 3 seconds rule.

It was literally the easiest defensive environment of all time (hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds, no flooding).. So you have it completely backwards - MJ has never faced defenses this EASY.

At that time, league-wide ORtg was on upward trajectory - it reached an all-time high by 2009 (108.3) because teams had yet to figure out the optimal way (flooding) to play defense under the new rules introduced in 2005 (the aforementioned defensive 3 seconds and hand-check ban).





Did he even face a team as good as the spurs in any series?


That's completely subjective - but sure - the Spurs were worse than most good playoff teams that MJ faced (Bad Boys, 80's Celtics, 90's Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Suns, 96' Sonics, 97' and 98' Jazz)... All these teams could hand-check and paint-camp, and MJ didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to give him the great spacing Lebron enjoyed.. Btw, if the 90's Bulls were in the 2000's instead, no one would even talk about the Spurs - they'd be the Utah Jazz, only worse.

More importantly, the Spurs' defense let every wing go off, EXCEPT Lebron - in the 2006-2008 playoffs, the Spurs let Kobe drop 29 ppg on 53.3%, Bonzi dropped 23/12 on 61%, while Dirk and Melo each scored 27 ppg on 53%..

And here's what nobody seems to get - we know for a statistical fact that Lebron's horrific performance was because he COULDN'T SHOOT, not the Spurs defense:

The difference between Bonzi's 61% and Lebron's 35% isn't because the Spurs did magic tricks on defense against Lebron.. It's because Lebron shot 14.8% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) from midrange (30% of offense) and 20% on 3-pointers (22% of offense) - otoh, he shot 65.7% at the rim, so his JUMPSHOT was clearly the reason for his horrible stats.. Lebron simply can't shoot, so his stats were horrific, while Bonzi (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1), Kobe, Dirk, and Melo all shot very well on their jumpshots (literally 40% to 50% from midrange (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) and great from 3), so their stats were great - these are the statistical facts.. So don't attribute Lebron's poor play to the Spurs defense, when it was his horrible jumpshot that caused the poor stats.. That's the statistical fact I've been trying to point out.
.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2007 Spurs Def Rtg: 99.9

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.


MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

[feyki]

2007 Spurs Def Rtg: 99.9

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.


MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

:applause: :applause:

[Dr Hawk]

2007 Spurs Def Rtg: 99.9

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.


MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

Damn

[3ball]

.
Various Players' Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%... 3-point jumpshot FG%... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5.......................... 32.2................
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 ......................... 61.2................
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 ......................... 59.1................
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3.......................... 63.3................
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0.......................... 52.2................


Everyone got off on the Spurs, EXCEPT Lebron - as you can see, it's statistical fact that Lebron's poor performance in 2007 Finals was due to his horrific shooting ability, and nothing else..
.

[supernova5912]

Jordan would dominate the Spurs, despite a clearly inferior cast. I'm not sure if the Cavs would win the series though, considering Spurs would gameplan for Jordan and play him much differently than they did for LeBron.

[dhsilv]

2007 Spurs Def Rtg: 99.9

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.


MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

There was no Pippen for MJ on the cavs. The Spurs literally had one guy to stop and that was it. So it only makes sense he'd have 10-20% less productive against that spurs team.

[3ball]

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.


DRtg's from the regular season 20 years ago can't be transposed onto an individual playoff series 20 years later - that's nonsensical and erroneous.. A much better methodology that eliminates the problems associated with a 20-year difference is to use COMPARABLES:



Melo's stats vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk's stats vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi's stats vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe's stats vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%


Jordan's efficiency would be just as good, especially since JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY was the difference between Kobe, Melo, Bonzi and Dirk shooting 48-61%, and Lebron shooting 35%:


.................................Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2



Since jumpshooting efficiency was the key to good efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since his midrange jumper was better than all these guys.

Regarding Lebron - the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive (since all these guys shot jumpers at great efficiency), but Lebron simply couldn't take advantage, due to his inability to shoot.

Even 9 years later in 2016, his efficiency is the worst in the league outside the paint... It's more than a pattern at this point - Lebron simply CAN'T SHOOT.





My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.

MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7


If your simple logic regarding DRtg was valid, then inferior players to Jordan (Melo, Kobe, Bonzi) wouldn't shoot between 48-61% against the Spurs' 99.6 defense - they'd shoot the same 39-40% that Jordan shot against the similarly-rated defenses you listed above..

Analyzing DRtg properly is far more complicated - here's a few examples of how complicated it is..

For starters, your DRtg's are from the regular season - in the playoffs, the Knicks DRtg was an abysmal 107.0.. In the ACTUAL SERIES (the 1993 ECF) it was 112.4... It was horrific.. Jordan has many series where he shot much better against defenses that gave up far fewer points per possession... See how complicated it is??... No one who watched the 1993 ECF would say the Knicks played weak defense - but according to your erroneous use of DRtg, their defense was garbage.

Also, look at the 1989 and 1990 Pistons defense - they had some of the best defensive personnel ever, and played extraordinary team defense.. So why aren't their DRtg's as good as many crappier defensive teams in the 90's or 2000's??... It's because STYLE OF PLAY in any given era affects DRtg's.. In this case, offensive rebounding rate is the key factor - it was higher in the Pistons' era because teams didn't shoot 3-pointers - the higher proportion of 2-pointers increased offensive rebounding rate and consequently ORtg/DRtg as well.. This is statistical fact - previous eras had MUCH higher offensive rebounding rate due to the higher proportion of 2-pointers, which increased ORtg's and DRtg's for all teams.

Btw, in addition to higher offensive rebounding rate, I have a less-provable theory why DRtg's were higher: when teams get hot from midrange, THERE IS NO DEFENSE THAT CAN STOP THAT... It's not like 3-pointers, where you can get a hand in the face and drastically reduce the efficiency - good midrange shooters are accustomed to having defender draped all over... So in previous eras, when teams LIVED off midrange, they could get hot and be unstoppable.. I think that happened a lot in previous eras, like the aforementioned Bulls-Knicks series in 1993, where both teams had high ORtg/DRtg, even though it was a tough, grind-it-out defensive series... Just look at Game 4 - MJ scored 54 points ON ALL JUMPSHOTS, mostly midrange.. This isn't an exaggerration.. This shows that when guys or teams get hot from midrange, DRtg goes out the window because there is no defense that can stop it.

And again, the simplest way that you're misusing DRtg is that you're conflating regular season DRtg's with playoff DRtg's.. Playoff basketball is much different, and the Spurs DRtg in the 2007 playoffs was 103.1... Whereas the 1998 Utah Jazz had a playoff DRtg of 100.4 - this is a lower playoff DRtg than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals.





My guess


Yeah, I know you're just guessing.. But guessing and going for the easy, low-hanging fruit leads to erroneous conclusions.

One thing you're completely disregarding is the regulatory environment at the time.. In 2007, there was no hand-checking, no flooding (flooding wasn't in vogue until well after 2008), and defenders had to abide by new defensive 3 seconds rule.

It was literally the easiest defensive environment of all time (hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds, no flooding).. So you have it completely backwards - MJ has never faced defenses this EASY.

At that time, league-wide ORtg was on upward trajectory - it reached an all-time high by 2009 (108.3) because teams had yet to figure out the optimal way to play defense under the new rules introduced in 2005 (the aforementioned defensive 3 seconds and hand-check ban).
.

[Smoke117]

2007 Spurs Def Rtg: 99.9

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.


MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

http://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/kings/sites/default/files/4cads6q.gif

[3ball]

There was no Pippen for MJ on the cavs. The Spurs literally had one guy to stop and that was it. So it only makes sense he'd have 10-20% less productive against that spurs team.


Jordan being a 1-man team on the Cavs would INCREASE his stats - he'd be taking MORE shots on a 1-man team than he takes alongside Pippen.

All player's stats are higher when they're a 1-man team - it's silly to even provide examples of something so obvious and common knowledge..

But look at Lebron's Cavs' stats vs. his Heat stats.. Look at Jordan's pre-Pippen stats (37 ppg and 35 ppg) vs. post-Pippen (30-33 ppg).. Look at Kobe's post-Shaq/pre-Pau stats (36 ppg season).

So your assumption that his stats would go DOWN without Pippen is ridiculous and flies in the face of all the empirical evidence we have about 1-man teams.

[tpols]

2007 Spurs Def Rtg: 99.9

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.


MJ vs 97 Heat Def Rtg: 100.6

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks Def Rtg: 99.7

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

How are those stats comparable to 22 ppg on 43 TS ?


I don't think people really appreciate how bad Lebron was in that series.. the fact that he shot 14.8% or whatever on jumpers is pretty shocking. There's no perimeter players in the top 20 GOATs that could possibly shoot that badly... that's like shaq/wilt esque shooting ability for a guy handling the ball 25 feet out all the time.

[Young X]

You can't just use team DRtg across eras like that in these kinds of comparisons. You have to look at it relative to the rest of the league.

The DRtg's back then were higher because the offensive rebounding rate as a whole was higher. That's why a team like the '06 Suns has the same DRtg as the '88 Pistons.

[3ball]

My guess would be an average of his stats against similarly defensive efficient teams he faced in the playoffs.



DRtg's from the regular season 20 years ago can't be transposed onto an individual playoff series 20 years later - that's nonsensical and erroneous.. A much better methodology that eliminates the problems associated with a 20-year difference is to use COMPARABLES:



Melo's stats vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk's stats vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi's stats vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe's stats vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%


Jordan's efficiency would be just as good, especially since JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY was the difference between Kobe, Melo, Bonzi and Dirk shooting 48-61%, and Lebron shooting 35%:


.................................Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2



Since jumpshooting efficiency was the key to good efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since his midrange jumper was better than all these guys.

Regarding Lebron - the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive (since all these guys shot jumpers at great efficiency), but Lebron simply couldn't take advantage, due to his inability to shoot.

Even 9 years later in 2016, his efficiency is the worst in the league outside the paint... It's more than a pattern at this point - Lebron simply CAN'T SHOOT.
.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You can't just use team DRtg across eras like that in these kinds of comparisons. You have to look at it relative to the rest of the league.

The DRtg's back then were higher because the offensive rebounding rate as a whole was higher. That's why a team like the '06 Suns has the same DRtg as the '88 Pistons.

If you can't compare defensive ratings across eras then you similarly can't compare raw offensive stats across the league across eras.

individual and team points and efficiency were higher in Jordan's era because offenses emphasized fast break basketball so much so that they their defensive rebounding was lower across the board.

:confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

The bottom line...replace Lebron with a peak MJ...and the Spurs still easily win that Finals.

[Young X]

If you can't compare defensive ratings across eras then you similarly can't compare raw offensive stats across the league across eras.

individual and team points and efficiency were higher in Jordan's era because offenses emphasized fast break basketball so much so that they their defensive rebounding was lower across the board.

:confusedshrug:It depends on what kind of stats you're comparing. The shooting from the field back then was about the same as it was in 2007 so you could compare scoring stats but not overall defensive/offensive performance of entire teams.

[3ball]

individual and team points and efficiency were higher in Jordan's era because offenses in MJ's era emphasized fast break basketball so much so that they their defensive rebounding was lower across the board.




^^^ This is factually incorrect - here's league-wide Pace for NBA Playoffs:


1988: 94.0
1989: 94.4
1990: 95.9
1991: 93.3
1992: 91.7
1993: 90.8
1994: 88.6
1995: 89.0
1996: 87.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats)
1997: 87.2
1998: 85.9

2006: 89.2
2007: 89.5
2008: 88.0
2009: 88.7
2010: 89.7
2011: 87.8
2012: 89.0
2013: 89.5
2014: 90.6
2015: 94.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats)


From 1988 to 1991, pace was only 5% faster than today's era.. From 1992 to 1995, pace was the same, and from 1996 to 1998, pace was 3% slower.






If you can't compare defensive ratings across eras then you similarly can't compare raw offensive stats across the league across eras.



^^^^ This is true, which is why the best way to evaluate player performance across different eras is to use COMPARABLES (like they do in finance and real estate valuation (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=comparables%20definition)):



Melo's stats vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk's stats vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi's stats vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe's stats vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%


Jordan's efficiency would be just as good, especially since JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY was the difference between Kobe, Melo, Bonzi and Dirk shooting 48-61%, and Lebron shooting 35%:


.................................Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2



Since jumpshooting efficiency was the key to good efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since his midrange jumper was better than all these guys.

Regarding Lebron - the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive (since all these guys shot jumpers at great efficiency), but Lebron simply couldn't take advantage, due to his inability to shoot.

Even 9 years later in 2016, his efficiency is the worst in the league outside the paint... It's more than a pattern at this point - Lebron simply CAN'T SHOOT.
.

[Cleverness]

0/0/0

He wouldn't have made it out of the first round without Scottie Pippen

[deja vu]

I agree that the Spurs would still have won the series with Jordan on the Cavs. LeBron basically had no help that time. That the Cavs made the Finals showed how weak the East that time. Their only competition out East were the Pistons who while still a great defensive team, couldn't handle LeBron who went beast mode on them.

But yeah, there's no way prime Jordan would have averaged less than 30 ppg on the Spurs. Bruce Bowen while a great defender was too slow and unathletic to keep up with Jordan. I think the series go to 6 with Jordan putting up like 35 ppg on 45% shooting.

[3ball]

I agree that the Spurs would still have won the series with Jordan on the Cavs.


Who cares - this thread isn't about that - re-read the title of the thread.

This thread is about what MJ's stats would've been, not whether he would've won.





Their only competition out East were the Pistons who while still a great defensive team, couldn't handle LeBron who went beast mode on them.


For 1 game only - Game 5 - this is a fact:

Lebron had 10 points on 5-15 in Game 1, and 19 points on 7-19 in Game 2 - despite these bad performances, the Cavs only lost by 3 points each time.

Lebron's stats thru 4 games were 22 ppg on 43%... This would be the worst playoff performance of Jordan's career, by far.

Overall, Lebron averaged 25 ppg on 44.9% for the series, and 25 ppg on 41% for the 2007 playoffs as a whole - again, these would be the worst playoff performances of MJ's career.
.

[3ball]

with Jordan putting up like 35 ppg on 45% shooting.


I agree with the PPG, but you're overrating the Spurs ability to limit efficiency.

Facts are simply being ignored itt - JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY was the difference between Bonzi, Kobe, Dirk and Carmelo shooting 48-61% against the Spurs, and Lebron shooting 35%:


.............................Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2



Since jumpshooting efficiency was the determining factor to good efficiency against the Spurs, then MJ would've destroyed the Spurs, because his midrange jumper was the best of the group.

Regarding Lebron - obviously, the Spurs jumpshooting defense wasn't prohibitive (since everyone else had great efficiency on their jumpers), but Lebron simply couldn't take advantage due to his inability to shoot - his poor performance was clearly due to his poor jumpshooting.

I'm not sure why these facts are being ignored..

[LAZERUSS]

I'll make this easy for you 3ball...

MJ > Lebron.

But you will never convince me that Lebron is a team-wrecking loser, nor that Pippen was an easily replaceable piece in MJ's six rings.

[3ball]

MJ > Lebron.

But you can't convince me that Pippen was an easily replaceable piece in MJ's six rings.



Pippen wasn't EASILY replaceable, but he was a worse 2nd option and replaceable by all these guys:


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (nearly every year)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
David Robinson or Duncan (1998)
Stockton (every year)
Shawn Kemp (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12000670&postcount=12) (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


Even if you disagree with 1 or 2 here and there - most of them are valid - Pippen simply wasn't a top 10 second option..

But I will concede that there were far more 3rd options ([url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393882) better than Horace (nearly half the league's 3rd options were better), and ditto for 4th options - there were a super ton of 4th options (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894) better than BJ Armstrong (i.e. Byron Scott/Michael Cooper/AC Green... Ray Allen... Dennis Johnson... Manu or Kawhi).

The reason MJ still won 6 rings despite having a 2nd that wasn't top 10, and 3rd/4th options that were pedestrian, is because Jordan scored a higher proportion of his team's points than anyone ever has, including at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their CAREERS (except two, when MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. He also scored 50% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376) of his team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while he was on the floor).

In addition to his goat scoring and clutch, MJ also led his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49))..

No other player in history was required to score 10 more ppg than their 2nd option for every series of their playoff career AND lead the team in passing (MJ led Bulls in assist % for for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).
.

[feyki]

Give Jordan the Flynn Robinson and he would win the world .

[3ball]

Give Jordan the Flynn Robinson and he would win the world .
Yeah bro, that's what I wrote.. That's what my post said

:rolleyes:
.

[feyki]

Yeah bro, that's what I wrote.. That's what my post said

:rolleyes:
.

You're smartest guy on the world :applause: :bowdown: .

[3ball]

You're smartest guy on the world :applause: :bowdown: .
Yup, that's what I said itt too.. :rolleyes:

Don't let your insecurities creep into your posts... Not a good look bud

[pastis]

They'd be nonexistent, cause he wouldn't make the Finals.

No Pippen = 1-9.

3ball = knife guy

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Indiana_53e1c0_130347.gif

[3ball]

Jordan wouldn't wouldn't have beaten the Pistons in 2007 ECF or had the big Game 5


Lebron only had 10 points in Game 1 on 5-15, and 19 points in Game 2 on 7-19, yet the Cavs lost by only 3 points each time... MJ wins the first two games EASILY and is up 2-0 going into Game 3, instead of down 0-2 like Lebron..

It couldn't be any clearer.. Lebron's stats thru 4 games were 22 ppg on 43%... This would be the worst playoff performance of Jordan's career, BY FAR.

Overall, Lebron averaged 25 ppg on 44.9% for the series, and 25 ppg on 41% for the playoffs as a whole - again, these would be the worst playoff performances of MJ's career.

So even though Jordan could replicate the Game 5 performance - he wouldn't need to - his Cavs would be further ahead in the series because his stats would've been far better than Lebron's up until that point.
.

[LAZERUSS]

Lebron only had 10 points in Game 1 on 5-15, and 19 points in Game 2 on 7-19, yet the Cavs lost by only 3 points each time... MJ wins the first two games EASILY and is up 2-0 going into Game 3, instead of down 0-2 like Lebron..

It couldn't be any clearer.. Lebron's stats thru 4 games were 22 ppg on 43%... This would be the worst playoff performance of Jordan's career, BY FAR.

Overall, Lebron averaged 25 ppg on 44.9% for the series, and 25 ppg on 41% for the playoffs as a whole - again, these would be the worst playoff performances of MJ's career.

MJ could replicate the Game 5 performance, but he wouldn't need to - his Cavs would be further ahead in the series because his stats would've been far better than Lebron's up until that point.


Nope... you would never find a clinching Finals game in which MJ shot 5-19 from the field, or a must win playoff game in which he shot 9-35 from the field.

The guy never missed...

[TommyGriffin]

I remember the 2007 Finals quite well. We knew that we were the underdog but no one, even basketball experts, expected us to be swept. The 2007 Spurs were a solid defensive team but not historically great or anything. Carmelo was able to do some damage against them earlier in the playoffs and we thought LeBron could do the same. We were wrong. LeBron wasn't able to get to the rim when he wanted and in result had to settle for tons of midrange jumpers. LeBron can get some jumpers going when he has confidence but he cannot hit consistently. In the Finals he didn't have anything going.

[3ball]

.
...............Everyone's made jumpshots vs. 2006-2008 Spurs EXCEPT Lebron


...................................Midrange .....................3-PT
.............................. Jumpshot FG%.......... jumpshot FG%..... Total Jumpshot Proportion

Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..........50.0........................... 62.5............................ 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..............41.3........................... 50.0 ........................... 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...........37.5........................... 50.0 ........................... 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .............50.0........................... 33.3............................ 63.3
Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) ........14.8........................... 20.0............................ 52.2

^^^ links to nba.com data



Consequently, everyone shot great vs. Spurs, EXCEPT Lebron:


Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball laying pipe bombs throughout this thread. Holy shit :oldlol:

Its like I said earlier, you insert Jordan in place of a perimeter player that can't shoot NOR has any semblance of a midrange game, and he's gonna kill it. LMAO @ being defended as if he had zero jumpshot ability. Mike would declare open season on the Spurs.

LeBron's inconsistent jumper and flat out NO JUMPER for large chunks of his career is why I feel that he's overrated. A perimeter player that can't shoot holding the ball as much as he does? Dude should pray to Jesus Shuttlesworth every night for saving his legacy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Give Jordan the Flynn Robinson and he would win the world .

Dude had Chicago atop their conference with Pippen missing damn near HALF the season.

He don't need Flynn Robinson when he's got Randy Brown :bowdown: