Who improved their teammates more? Bird or Lebron

[Dr Hawk]

Who made their team-mates better?

[Marchesk]

Magic

[Dr Hawk]

Magic

Magic is the GOAT at that, we know that, but between these two, who do you choose?

[Marchesk]

Magic is the GOAT at that, we know that, but between these two, who do you choose?

Would it make sense to say Bird, but Lebron can do more with less?

[BuffaloBill]

Would it make sense to say Bird, but Lebron can do more with less?


Lebron can do more with less but he turns good players into poo.


I pick bird to answer OPs question

[Dr Hawk]

Would it make sense to say Bird, but Lebron can do more with less?

I don't know if it makes sense, but that's exactly how I think :cheers:

Put Lebron in those '86 Celtics and they wouldn't be as good as they were. Bird's playstyle increased their ceiling

[3ball]

.
Bird didn't lower the APG and assist % of his teammates like Lebron did:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%


Source: basketball-reference.com


There's a reason the stats show Lebron lowering the assist capacity of his team - starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

Not only did Lebron lower the APG of teammates, but he increased all of their assisted rates, which proves he turned them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Lebron's effect of turning teammates from playmakers to play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the 80's Celtics and current Spurs/Warriors employ, where all five guys SHARE the playmaking duties more equally.. But in Lebron's case, since his monopolization of the playmaking prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Also, the fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well, with similarly sparkling stats to support it.. It means nothing.. Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates, as shown above.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, which is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill Bird needed to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.. Bird could've been a monopolizing, low-assisted player that achieved stats at the expense of teammates too - but then he wouldn't be 3/5, with his only 2 losses coming to the greatest team of all time (80's Lakers).

[GimmeThat]

I see this question as asking/stating that

if you are trying to record between the amount of minutes/miles you've ran, and the best time you've ever ran by different standard racing criteria

would a marathon runner help you more, or a sprinter

[JohnMax]

Lebron is not really good at making stars into great players. That is why you will rarely see a dominant team with Lebron and even his two championships with Miami, they were not an all-time best teams.

[robby712]

It depends. Bird's style of play was less ball dominant so any player that could create for himself had a field day out there because the opposition always had to worry about leaving Bird open. Lebron is the opposite.

Have a very good team already? Give me Bird.
Have a bad/mediocre team? Lebron all the way. Nobody in the history of the NBA could have taken those Cavs teams to 60+ wins.

[Harison]

Would it make sense to say Bird, but Lebron can do more with less?
Bird made from 29 wins team to 61, and a year later - championship. Bird instead of Lebron on Cavs teams would have won multiple rings already.

[robby712]

Bird made from 29 wins team to 61, and a year later - championship. Bird instead of Lebron on Cavs teams would have won multiple rings already.

:roll: at Bird winning multiple titles with the Cavs. The Celtics in 1979 were coached for most of the season by Dave Cowens, who was also playing. As for the Championship, I'm sure that adding McHale and Parish that year did not make any difference :facepalm . Bird was their best player, but 80's Celtics had some great guys on their roster.

[La Frescobaldi]

After Havlicek retired the Celtics pretty much were dogs of the east and really it started his last season. Those were glorious days my friend when Boston was horrible at basketball. Reminds me of their recent situation which has been like the finest champagne.

It didn't help anything that they brought in Tom Sanders to replace Tommy Heinsohn as coach back in those days that's for sure but bad as he was it wasn't all on Satch. They threw him out and had Cowens coaching for awhile it was just turmoil there in the late '70s. It was gruesome and you didn't want to do anything but watch the Celtics get smashed over and over. There were parties all over the nation celebrating the destruction of the Celtics, just a great time to be around and see it.

Bird wasn't all alone bringing the Celtics around though, like some people will sometimes say.... because Red Auerbach had that team turning over like a big lake does sometimes. Seemed like every player in the league was driving through Boston to play a few games. Nevertheless Bird hit the League like a bombshell and no mistake. Everybody knew right off that Boston had not just a great player but something real special.

Meanwhile the Sixers were in their second time of glory days and the Celtics even with their great early 80s lineups with Coach Fitch were only a match for that team... it was just the way the ball bounced as to which team would win.

Funny thing people think the 60s teams were full blown racist and had quotas and all that mainly because Bill Russell said that some time or other. Well that may have been true in 1961 or something but several teams had all black starters by '64 or 65 and mostly so by later in that same decade. The thing is Boston had started that whole thing off, and Red Auerbach got a lot of sh!t over it, having so many black dudes on his team and then even having a black dude coaching the Celtics. A lot of sh!t.
But then he took even more sh!t 12 or 15 years later for having too many white dudes starting on his team. This country is incredibly stupid on all sides. As if Sam Jones or Kevin McHale shouldn't be in the NBA because their stripes are not to somebody's liking. Auerbach used to just go off on reporters for that stuff, how stupid they were and how they were creating hatred on all sides with the very last controversy a Jew wanted to hear about.
Anyways I couldn't choose the one over the other Bird or LBJ,as far as improving teammates.
They have both had incredible runs, unbelievable impact and have been the best player of their League over multiple seasons. As far as pure ball player, it's Bird by a substantial amount. LeBron's defense isn't enough to make up for Bird's offense. But as far as improving their team? It's close, real close.

[La Frescobaldi]

:roll: at Bird winning multiple titles with the Cavs. The Celtics in 1979 were coached for most of the season by Dave Cowens, who was also playing. As for the Championship, I'm sure that adding McHale and Parish that year did not make any difference :facepalm . Bird was their best player, but 80's Celtics had some great guys on their roster.

:roll: at LeBron winning multiple titles with the Cavs. As for the championship, I'm sure the Decision and The Stacking of Riley's Heat did not make any difference :facepalm LeBron was their best player, but 2010s Heat had some great guys on their roster.

[MP.Trey]

Team full of stars: Bird

Team full of role players: LeBron

[La Frescobaldi]

Team full of stars: Bird

Team full of role players: LeBron

the heat was full of stars

[Dr Hawk]

the heat was full of stars

Those Heatr would have been better with Bird instead of Lebron

[mr4speed]

Magic is the GOAT at that, we know that, but between these two, who do you choose?
I'm picking Bird. As for a team without stars, how about the Indiana State Unknowns, and how Bird almost did the impossible? As for Magic consider this - LA in 1980 with Magic were 26 wins and 11 losses = 70.27%. Without Magic (same year) LA was 28 wins and 17 losses = 62.22% a drop of 8%. Boston in 87-88 was 57 wins and 25 losses =69.51% Boston without Bird in 88-89 was 40 wins and 36 losses (he played 6 games) =52.63% a drop of 16.8%. Which team suffered more?

[feyki]

Bird , of course.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A few months back I was watching old Celtic games from the '84 and '86 seasons - and saw Bird completely dominating games without shooting the ball. Read defenses to get his team clean looks, rebounded and played defense (underrated)... Looked like he was everywhere on the court doing everything in his power to make his teammates better.

Bird's off-ball play is why he's the answer to OP's question.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Here's a game spotlighting what I talked about above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maS9smxRubI

[Hey Yo]

the heat was full of stars
Parish was putting up similar numbers at Golden St. after he was traded to Boston.....Parish >> Joel Anthony and Birdman Andersen.

McHale played with Boston his rookie year ond on, so we can't say for fact Bird made him better since there's nothing to compare it to...... McHale >> Bosh

Ainge put up his best scoring avg. (17.9) his only full year at Sacramento at age 30....Wade >> Ainge

DJ's numbers regressed once he got to Boston, compared to playing in Sea and PHX. Regardless of that........DJ >>>>> Bibby and Chalmers.

[La Frescobaldi]

Parish was putting up similar numbers at Golden St. after he was traded to Boston.....Parish >> Joel Anthony and Birdman Andersen.

McHale played with Boston his rookie year ond on, so we can't say for fact Bird made him better since there's nothing to compare it to...... McHale >> Bosh

Ainge put up his best scoring avg. (17.9) his only full year at Sacramento at age 30....Wade >> Ainge

DJ's numbers regressed once he got to Boston, compared to playing in Sea and PHX. Regardless of that........DJ >>>>> Bibby and Chalmers.

that's not bad, not bad at all. i don't disagree

[dubeta]

A few months back I was watching old Celtic games from the '84 and '86 seasons - and saw Bird completely dominating games without shooting the ball. Read defenses to get his team clean looks, rebounded and played defense (underrated)... Looked like he was everywhere on the court doing everything in his power to make his teammates better.

Bird's off-ball play is why he's the answer to OP's question.

LOL Bird had ZERO off-ball game

Did you even watch Bird play??

[La Frescobaldi]

LOL Bird had ZERO off-ball game

Did you even watch Bird play??

what are you talking about? Bird had one of the greatest off-ball styles ever seen. Teams feared him no matter where he was but he still would stand wide open as if nobody knew where he was

[LAZERUSS]

Bird made from 29 wins team to 61, and a year later - championship. Bird instead of Lebron on Cavs teams would have won multiple rings already.

He, nor even MJ at his peak, would have won last year's Finals against an all-time great Warriors team, and playing without his two best teammates.

People forget that MJ's '87 Bulls were swept by a 59-23 Celtics team that was on the downside, and in a series in which Jordan shot .417,m and went 9-35 in the clincher. Hell, he had a teammate, Oakley, who hung a 20-15 series, and they were still swept.

So no way in hell does Bird or Jordan take last year's cast of clowns to a win over that 67-15 Warriors team, and with their second best player being JR Smith (who has as much business being in the NBA as I do.) In fact, Lebron single-handedly won two games, and narrowly lost two more, all wth Smith, Deli, and Shumpert (the Three Stooges) shooting .326, .283, and .258 in that series.


And the Lebron-bashers never bring up the FACT that every team he has joined has improved DRAMATICALLY, and every team he has left has crumbled completely.

How about this...in his rookie season, he took a team with it's best player the year before, the clown of a center, Big Z, from a 17 wins, to 35. "Big Z" an all-star? What a joke.

In his third seasom Lebron took that wretched cast to their first ever Finals. Within a couple of years the Cavs were going 66-16 (a team record), and 61-21.

Lebron bolted for Miami. What happened to his Cavs? 19-63.

Meanwhile, Lebron's new team improved from a 47-35 and a first round exit, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals.

Lebron would carry those Heat teams to four straight Finals, dominating in two of them, and had virtually zero help in his last Finals there. BTW, before someone brings up Wade...he was already on the downslide, and by their 4th season was nearly worthless. Oh, and in the games that Wade missed...Miami went 47-18.

Ok, Lebron left the Heat. And without him, Wade and the "10 time All-Star" Bosh (who couldn't hold Horace Grant's jock) plummeted to a 37-45 record and didn't even make the playoffs.

Lebron then took a Cavs team that had gone 33-49 the year before, to a 53-29 record, and yet again, another Finals. Oh, and without Lebron, the Cavs went 3-10...with him, 50-19!

And it's not like Bird didn't have his share of post-season flop jobs, either. Hell, he WON his first ring with a 15 ppg Finals on a .419 FG%. After that, he put up two horrific post-season runs in '82 and '83. In '87, he played one good game in the Finals, and his team was blown out in it. And in '88, he single-handedly took his Celtics down in flames against the Bad Boys with a .351 FG%.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm picking Bird. As for a team without stars, how about the Indiana State Unknowns, and how Bird almost did the impossible? As for Magic consider this - LA in 1980 with Magic were 26 wins and 11 losses = 70.27%. Without Magic (same year) LA was 28 wins and 17 losses = 62.22% a drop of 8%. Boston in 87-88 was 57 wins and 25 losses =69.51% Boston without Bird in 88-89 was 40 wins and 36 losses (he played 6 games) =52.63% a drop of 16.8%. Which team suffered more?

Magic had a season of 6-0 without KAJ in the decade of the 80's, too. In fact, his teams went 24-8 in the games that Kareem missed...which is higher than his entire career W-L% of .742 (the highest ever BTW.) How about Kareem in the games that Magic missed? 61-40 or a .604 W-L%.

Oh, and in his rookie season, and with KAJ watching the game from his couch, Magic put up a historic 42-15-7 clincher in the Finals. In fact, that win was the only blowout win of the series.

And in their '87 run, Kareem was no more than a "third wheel.' And in their '88 title run, Magic carried his team to a title DESPITE Kareem's AWFUL play (and with the worst game seven ever by a GOAT candidate.)

In '89, LA came into the Finals, 11-0. Magic got hurt, and without, they were swept.

Kareem retired, and LA IMPROVED from a 57-25 team to a 63-19 team (62-17 with Magic BTW.)

And in his last season, Magic single-handedly took his broken down remnants from the '80's to a shocking win over a heavily-favored Blazers team, and to his ninth Finals in 12 seasons.

He retired, and virtually everyone of his main teammates from the season before watched their FG%'s PLUNGE...as did their record...43-39 (and then followed that up with a 39-43 record.)

CLEARLY it was MAGIC who CARRIED those Laker teams to NINE Finals and FIVE rings.

[La Frescobaldi]

Magic had a season of 6-0 without KAJ in the decade of the 80's, too. In fact, his teams went 24-8 in the games that Kareem missed...which is higher than his entire career W-L% of .742 (the highest ever BTW.) How about Kareem in the games that Magic missed? 61-40 or a .604 W-L%.

Oh, and in his rookie season, and with KAJ watching the game from his couch, Magic put up a historic 42-15-7 clincher in the Finals. In fact, that win was the only blowout win of the series.

And in their '87 run, Kareem was no more than a "third wheel.' And in their '88 title run, Magic carried his team to a title DESPITE Kareem's AWFUL play (and with the worst game seven ever by a GOAT candidate.)

In '89, LA came into the Finals, 11-0. Magic got hurt, and without, they were swept.

Kareem retired, and LA IMPROVED from a 57-25 team to a 63-19 team (62-17 with Magic BTW.)

And in his last season, Magic single-handedly took his broken down remnants from the '80's to a shocking win over a heavily-favored Blazers team, and to his ninth Finals in 12 seasons.

He retired, and virtually everyone of his main teammates from the season before watched their FG%'s PLUNGE...as did their record...43-39 (and then followed that up with a 39-43 record.)

CLEARLY it was MAGIC who CARRIED those Laker teams to NINE Finals and FIVE rings.

Overstatement. Indeed, hyperbole. He didn't CARRY Showtime Lakers.

Now, the 90s-no-longer-Showtime-except-in-name? Yeah different story.

[LAZERUSS]

Overstatement. Indeed, hyperbole. He didn't CARRY Showtime Lakers.

Now, the 90s-no-longer-Showtime-except-in-name? Yeah different story.

Completely TRUE statement.

They were a .500 team before he joined them, and a .500 team after he retired.

In between, he led them to NINE Finals, and FIVE rings, and came within an eyelash or key injuries (including to himself) of winning at least a couple more.) And their WORST record was 54-28 (and 26-11 with Magic that year.) Hell, they IMPROVED after Kareem retired.

Easily the best player of the 80's. And a case for GOAT.

[La Frescobaldi]

Completely TRUE statement.

They were a .500 team before he joined them, and a .500 team after he retired.

In between, he led them to NINE Finals, and FIVE rings, and came within an eyelash or key injuries (including to himself) of winning at least a couple more.)

Easily the best player of the 80's.

You can't just lump Worthy, Jabbar, Cooper, even McAdoo off the bench and Coach Riley into one pile and call them role players. Those guys were long gone by 90s except faded Big Game.

We've been here before my friend. I hate the Boston Celtics possibly more than anybody in the long, illustrious history of Celtics haters.

But Bird was better than Johnson.

[LAZERUSS]

You can't just lump Worthy, Jabbar, Cooper, even McAdoo off the bench and Coach Riley into one pile and call them role players. Those guys were long gone by 90s except faded Big Game.

We've been here before my friend. I hate the Boston Celtics possibly more than anybody in the long, illustrious history of Celtics haters.

But Bird was better than Johnson.

NO WAY.

Bird was better in '84 and '86 (and '81 in a season in which Magic missed the last half of the yar.) If you include the post-season, Magic was the better player in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, 90, and '91.

And Magic was one errant Worthy pass away from holding a 3-0 Finals margin (and then a 6-2 overall ring margin) over Bird.

BTW, peak-for-peak...almost even.

Bird from '84-86, and Magic from '87 to '89.

In a five season run, it is now Magic who opens up a lead. His '85-89 run was more impressive than Bird's 84-88 (a 2-1 H2H in their Finals BTW.)

How about prime seven year runs? Magic from '85 thru '91 just blows away Bird from '82-'88.

Career? Magic in a runaway.

BTW, Magic was three years younger than Bird, too. At their same respective ages in their careers, Magic was easily the better player. For instance, Magic already had two rings and two FMVPs before age 23, and when Bird first entered the league. Go ahead and compare careers from that point on, and including what Magic had already accomplished. It would be a runaway for Magic.

At age 23...Magic with Three Finals, two rings, and two FMVPs. Bird...zero.
At age 24...Magic with Four Finals, two rings, and two FMVPs. Bird with 1 Final, and 1 ring.
At age 25...Magic with Five Finals, three rings, and two FMVPs...Bird with 1 Final, and 1 ring.
At age 26...Magic with Five Finals, three rings, and two FMVPs...Bird with 1 Final, and 1 ring.
At age 27...Magic with Six Finals, four rings, three FMVPs, and 1 MVP...Bird with 2 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, and 1 MVP.
At age 28...Magic with Seven Finals, five rings, three FMVPs, and 1 MVP...Bird with 3 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, and 2 MVPs
At age 29...Magic with Eight Finals, 5 rings, three FMVPs, and 2 MVPs... Bird with 4 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 MVPs
At age 30...Magic with Eight Finals, 5 rings, three FMVPs, and 3 MVPs...Bird with 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 MVPs
At age 31...Magic with Nine Finals, 5 rings, three FMVPs, and 3 MVPs...Bird with 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 MVPs.

Not even close.

[La Frescobaldi]

NO WAY.

Bird was better in '84 and '86 (and '81 in a season in which Magic missed the last half of the yar.) If you include the post-season, Magic was the better player in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, 90, and '91.

And Magic was one errant Worthy pass away from holding a 3-0 Finals margin (and then a 6-2 overall ring margin) over Bird.

BTW, peak-for-peak...almost even.

Bird from '84-86, and Magic from '87 to '89.

In a five season run, it is now Magic who opens up a lead. His '85-89 run was more impressive than Bird's 84-88 (a 2-1 H2H in their Finals BTW.)

How about prime seven year runs? Magic from '85 thru '91 just blows away Bird from '82-'88.

Career? Magic in a runaway.

BTW, Magic was three years younger than Bird, too. At their same respective ages in their careers, Magic was easily the better player. For instance, Magic already had two rings and two FMVPs before age 23, and when Bird first entered the league. Go ahead and compare careers from that point on, and including what Magic had already accomplished. It would be a runaway for Magic.


As I said before I can't argue for what I hate which is All Things Celtics.
I want to be on your side of this debate so it's pointless.

But Magic for G.O.A,T. is no way.

Not as good as Jordan
Not as good as Jabbar on Bucks and early Lakers (though he was better than the Pyramids level ancient Jabbar that he played with)
Not as good as Wilt Chamberlain.

Him and Bird at their very best never reached those heights. They lead the pack of The Rest, yeah.

But they ain't up there on that very last point of the mountain top.

http://www.airpano.com/files/Matterhorn-Switzerland/image4a.jpg

[mr4speed]

Completely TRUE statement.

They were a .500 team before he joined them, and a .500 team after he retired.

In between, he led them to NINE Finals, and FIVE rings, and came within an eyelash or key injuries (including to himself) of winning at least a couple more.) And their WORST record was 54-28 (and 26-11 with Magic that year.) Hell, they IMPROVED after Kareem retired.

Easily the best player of the 80's. And a case for GOAT.
The year before Magic joined them LA was 47 win and 35 loss team = better than 500 and in the playoffs. Kareem was the NBA MVP in 79-80 season and the biggest reason LA won the championship. Magic won game 6 and Kareem won the other 3 games. Yes, Magic improved his play as KAJ aged, but Magic himself carrying LA to all 9 finals? I'd give Magic the nod for 87,88 89 and 91 but thats 4 not all 9. Yes, Bird had bad series in 88 vs Pistons and 83 vs Bucks ( he had the flu during) but lets drag up dirt on Magic. How about his flame-out in 81 vs Rockets? Magic shot 38.8% and in last game at the Forum shot 6 of 11 FT including 2 late misses and on last possession shot an airball from about 10 feet? He managed only 2 baskets all game. Or lets step up to the finals level and look at 1983 vs sixers. Magic shot 40.3% and set a finals record for 24 turnovers in only 4 games! Or in 91 vs Bulls Magic shot 43.1% due to good defense - all of which Bird faced every game. Nobody digs up dirt on Magic but it is there - we all know about failures in the 84 finals. Point is Magic was a great player and really improved from 87 till he had to retire. Bird (I feel) had a greater impact. It is a subjective argument - impossible to "prove" with numbers - but the debate goes on.

[LAZERUSS]

The year before Magic joined them LA was 47 win and 35 loss team = better than 500 and in the playoffs. Kareem was the NBA MVP in 79-80 season and the biggest reason LA won the championship. Magic won game 6 and Kareem won the other 3 games. Yes, Magic improved his play as KAJ aged, but Magic himself carrying LA to all 9 finals? I'd give Magic the nod for 87,88 89 and 91 but thats 4 not all 9. Yes, Bird had bad series in 88 vs Pistons and 83 vs Bucks ( he had the flu during) but lets drag up dirt on Magic. How about his flame-out in 81 vs Rockets? Magic shot 38.8% and in last game at the Forum shot 6 of 11 FT including 2 late misses and on last possession shot an airball from about 10 feet? He managed only 2 baskets all game. Or lets step up to the finals level and look at 1983 vs sixers. Magic shot 40.3% and set a finals record for 24 turnovers in only 4 games! Or in 91 vs Bulls Magic shot 43.1% due to good defense - all of which Bird faced every game. Nobody digs up dirt on Magic but it is there - we all know about failures in the 84 finals. Point is Magic was a great player and really improved from 87 till he had to retire. Bird (I feel) had a greater impact. It is a subjective argument - impossible to "prove" with numbers - but the debate goes on.

'80. Magic took an underachieving Lakers team that had gone 47-35, and with two straight blowout series defeats to the Sonics, to a 60-22 record, and a 4-1 romp over the Sonics en route to a title. And we will never know how the Finals would have played out without Kareem for the entire series. We do know that LA played their best game of the series, and on the road, no less, in a clinching blowout, all with Magic hanging an epic 42-15-7 game, and withOUT Kareem.

'81. Magic missed the last half of the season with an injury. But go ahead and not mention the fact that Moses just brutalized Kareem in that 3 game series, as well. Even more interesting, is that Bird's Celtics beat the Sixers 4-3 in the ECF's that season, winning the last three straight games by the narrowest of margins. In '80 and '82 the Lakers waxed that same Sixers team in the Finals, including winning a clinching game withOUT Kareem.

'83. Magic played poorly in the Finals, BUT, Kareem was ROASTED by Moses in that Finals. And BTW, Worthy was injured and missed the entire series. Oh, and how did Bird fare against the '83 Sixers in the post-season? Oh that's right, his heavily-favored Celtics were SWEPT by the Bucks...who were then routed by the Sixers. This is certainly more of a "win" for Magic, than Bird.

'91? Magic took an injury-riddled shell of "Showtime" past the 63-19 Blazers to even to get to the Finals. I'll tell you this much, give me a prime Magic and his Lakers in '87, and replay that same series, and there no way that the Bulls romp. I suspect the exact opposite might have occurred.

[SouBeachTalents]

At age 23...Magic with Three Finals, two rings, and two FMVPs. Bird...zero.
At age 24...Magic with Four Finals, two rings, and two FMVPs. Bird with 1 Final, and 1 ring.
At age 25...Magic with Five Finals, three rings, and two FMVPs...Bird with 1 Final, and 1 ring.
At age 26...Magic with Five Finals, three rings, and two FMVPs...Bird with 1 Final, and 1 ring.
At age 27...Magic with Six Finals, four rings, three FMVPs, and 1 MVP...Bird with 2 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, and 1 MVP.
At age 28...Magic with Seven Finals, five rings, three FMVPs, and 1 MVP...Bird with 3 Finals, 2 rings, 1 FMVP, and 2 MVPs
At age 29...Magic with Eight Finals, 5 rings, three FMVPs, and 2 MVPs... Bird with 4 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 MVPs
At age 30...Magic with Eight Finals, 5 rings, three FMVPs, and 3 MVPs...Bird with 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 MVPs
At age 31...Magic with Nine Finals, 5 rings, three FMVPs, and 3 MVPs...Bird with 5 Finals, 3 rings, 2 FMVP, and 3 MVPs.

Not even close.

Something tells me you wouldn't do this same argument for Russell & Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

Something tells me you wouldn't do this same argument for Russell & Wilt

They both started their careers at the same age. And played the same position. Magic had a three year jump on Bird, and not only was much better on the front end, but was better on the back end, as well.

Wilt either outplayed, or downright dominated Russell in everyone of their eight post-season H2H's. Magic certainly outplayed Bird in two of their three.

And Bird had as many as FOUR other HOF teammates at the same time, and probably never faced any team with more, much less beat them.

Wilt with equal teammates, that were healthy, and we all know how that turned out.

And for the record...how about 1st team all-NBAs at the same ages?

Luckily for Russell, by age 24, Russell had one, and that was before Wilt arrived.

By age 25, Wilt had 3 to Russell's 1 at the same age. From that point on Chamberlain routed Russell. Even more impressive was that Wilt went 7-2 H2H in their ten seasons together.

[jayfan]

Completely TRUE statement.

They were a .500 team before he joined them, and a .500 team after he retired.

In between, he led them to NINE Finals, and FIVE rings, and came within an eyelash or key injuries (including to himself) of winning at least a couple more.) And their WORST record was 54-28 (and 26-11 with Magic that year.) Hell, they IMPROVED after Kareem retired.

Easily the best player of the 80's. And a case for GOAT.

Leading & being best player is different from carrying. Carrying is hyperbole in this case. Carrying is when you're surrounded by average-below average talent who can do very little to help.



.

[LAZERUSS]

Leading & being best player is different from carrying. Carrying is hyperbole in this case. Carrying is when you're surrounded by average-below average talent who can do very little to help.



.

Let me put it to you this way...it was Magic who MADE Showtime. Without him they were an average team both before he arrived, and after he left.

[ShawkFactory]

LeBird

[mr4speed]

They both started their careers at the same age. And played the same position. Magic had a three year jump on Bird, and not only was much better on the front end, but was better on the back end, as well.

Wilt either outplayed, or downright dominated Russell in everyone of their eight post-season H2H's. Magic certainly outplayed Bird in two of their three.

And Bird had as many as FOUR other HOF teammates at the same time, and probably never faced any team with more, much less beat them.



.
Magic better at the front end? I disagree. Bird won ROY with 63 first place votes vs 3 for Magic. The Celtics 32 game turnaround with Bird as rookie was amazing. Hall of fame teammates? You are really stretching here - Cowens played w Bird 1 year then retired. Nate Archibald? his points per game declined every year as he aged. Walton? had 1 good year w Bird (86) and in 87 season appeared in only 10 games for a total of 28 points and couldn't play. Magic outplayed Bird in 87 but Bird outplayed Magic in 84. The 85 finals MVP was KAJ - he was the difference in the series, Bird and Magic was a wash.
Comparing the post season is apples to oranges as Bird played in a much tougher conference. East dominated the west every year for all 10 years of the 80's. Bird w ROY and 2nd in MVP for 81,82,83 and MVP in 84,85 and 86 = first 7 years Bird is the better player.

[aj1987]

As others said, LeBron can do much more than Bird with shitty teammates, but Bird is better if you have good players on your team.

[feyki]

As others said, LeBron can do much more than Bird with shitty teammates, but Bird is better if you have good players on your team.

You must watch 1984 finals .

[aj1987]

You must watch 1984 finals .
You much watch the '13 Finals.

BTW, '84 Bird had like 3 All-D and 3/4 All-Star level players on his team.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic better at the front end? I disagree. Bird won ROY with 63 first place votes vs 3 for Magic. The Celtics 32 game turnaround with Bird as rookie was amazing. Hall of fame teammates? You are really stretching here - Cowens played w Bird 1 year then retired. Nate Archibald? his points per game declined every year as he aged. Walton? had 1 good year w Bird (86) and in 87 season appeared in only 10 games for a total of 28 points and couldn't play. Magic outplayed Bird in 87 but Bird outplayed Magic in 84. The 85 finals MVP was KAJ - he was the difference in the series, Bird and Magic was a wash.
Comparing the post season is apples to oranges as Bird played in a much tougher conference. East dominated the west every year for all 10 years of the 80's. Bird w ROY and 2nd in MVP for 81,82,83 and MVP in 84,85 and 86 = first 7 years Bird is the better player.

1. Including the post-season, which included LA routing Philly in '80 and '82 (and losing in the Finals to them in '83...in a post-season in which Bird's Celtics were swept before even facing that Philly team)...Magic with a 3-1 edge. In between, I will give Bird '84 and '86, but certainly not '85, in which KAJ played well, but Magic directed that offense. So, it is now 3-3. And from that point on, until Magic retired...five more seasons from '87 thru '91...all Magic, and in a runaway BTW.

2. Again, the Lakers dominated their Eastern Rivals in the post-season...at least way more than Boston did in the same time frame.

3. Magic's Lakers also beat more 60+ win teams in the process. And without taking the time to look it up, I am reasonable sure that Magic's Lakzers beat more 50+ win teams in the post-season, as well.

4. And, again, compare their careers at the same ages...and Magic just blows Bird away. In Magic's first three years, from 20-22,...well, Bird didn't play a game until age 23. So, going by what they had already accomplsihed at ages 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31...Magic just steamrolls Bird. It's not even close. And the reality was, using that formula...Magic was clearly better on the front end, and noticeably better on the back end.

Really Magic easily had a greater career than Bird. Bird's only edge, and it was a small one, was in their three year peaks. In terms of primes, and then careers, not even close.

[feyki]

You much watch the '13 Finals.

BTW, '84 Bird had like 3 All-D and 3/4 All-Star level players on his team.

That's pretty funny ;

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1984-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html


www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html

[aj1987]

That's pretty funny ;

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1984-nba-finals-lakers-vs-celtics.html


www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html
As I said: '84 Bird had like 3 All-D and 3/4 All-Star level players on his team.

Oh, and you want to being up the G7 stats from those series? If LeBron goes 6-16 or whatever, the Spurs DESTROY the Heat. LeBron basically had one of the greatest G7's of all time and the Heat barely won.

[SouBeachTalents]

As I said: '84 Bird had like 3 All-D and 3/4 All-Star level players on his team.

Oh, and you want to being up the G7 stats from those series? If LeBron goes 6-16 or whatever, the Spurs DESTROY the Heat. LeBron basically had one of the greatest G7's of all time and the Heat barely won.

LeBron had a significantly better Game 7, but Bird was much better through the first 6 games

Games 1-6
Bird: 29/14/4 on 51%
LeBron: 23/11/8 on 43%

And honestly, who had a great series for the Celtics that series? Was anybody even better than Wade was?

[aj1987]

LeBron had a significantly better Game 7, but Bird was much better through the first 6 games

Games 1-6
Bird: 29/14/4 on 51%
LeBron: 23/11/8 on 43%

And honestly, who had a great series for the Celtics that series? Was anybody even better than Wade was?
He also averaged more than twice as many FT's as LeBron. More TOV's as well.

Oh, and lets not forget that he was on a better team than LeBron.

[3ball]

Team full of stars: Bird

Team full of role players: LeBron


You don't know how Bird would play with a team full of role players, because he never did, so you're just speculating.

Bird never had to be a 1-man team (except maybe his rookie year, when he increased the Celtics wins by like 30.... to 61 wins).

So again, you're just speculating... However, we know Larry's stats would've been much better if he was a 1-man team.. Guys like MJ, Kobe, Lebron always put up their best individual stats when they had their 1-man teams.. Their stats are therefore overstated in comparison to Bird's, since he always had to defer to other star teammates.

[Lebronxrings]

lebron james took a bunch of scrubs to the finals. Let me repeat that: lebron james took a bunch of scrubs to the finals Now, most are not even in the nba.

[mr4speed]

1. Including the post-season, which included LA routing Philly in '80 and '82 (and losing in the Finals to them in '83...in a post-season in which Bird's Celtics were swept before even facing that Philly team)...Magic with a 3-1 edge. In between, I will give Bird '84 and '86, but certainly not '85, in which KAJ played well, but Magic directed that offense. So, it is now 3-3. And from that point on, until Magic retired...five more seasons from '87 thru '91...all Magic, and in a runaway BTW.

2. Again, the Lakers dominated their Eastern Rivals in the post-season...at least way more than Boston did in the same time frame.

3. Magic's Lakers also beat more 60+ win teams in the process. And without taking the time to look it up, I am reasonable sure that Magic's Lakzers beat more 50+ win teams in the post-season, as well.

4. And, again, compare their careers at the same ages...and Magic just blows Bird away. In Magic's first three years, from 20-22,...well, Bird didn't play a game until age 23. So, going by what they had already accomplsihed at ages 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31...Magic just steamrolls Bird. It's not even close. And the reality was, using that formula...Magic was clearly better on the front end, and noticeably better on the back end.

Really Magic easily had a greater career than Bird. Bird's only edge, and it was a small one, was in their three year peaks. In terms of primes, and then careers, not even close.
Well you and I see things differently. You are crediting Magic with 80, 82 and 83 as 3 to 1 vs Bird and this is based on LA making the finals thru weak west. Bird won ROY and was better player. Magic's game 6 of finals was incredible but 1 game does not a season make. KAJ actually won the FMVP after game 6 then CBS freaked out and asked voters to change votes so Magic could win. Counting that FMVP as Magic's is weak. As for 82 and 83, KAJ was still the focal point and best Laker on team. You are propping up Magic for LA success when for the entire body of work Bird was the better player - (MVP voting shows this). Then in 85 you give Magic all the credit for directing the offense (none to Pat Riley?) when KAJ in the 4 wins vs Boston avg 30.2 pts, 11.3 rebounds, 6.5 assists and 2 blocks! Magic and Bird in 85 finals was a wash and Birds body of work in 85 was better.
Dave Heeren authored "Basketball Abstract" and used the "tendex" system to measure a players performance. He had Bird as MVP for 4 years of the 80's and player of the decade.

[robby712]

You don't know how Bird would play with a team full of role players, because he never did, so you're just speculating.

Bird never had to be a 1-man team (except maybe his rookie year, when he increased the Celtics wins by like 30.... to 61 wins).

So again, you're just speculating... However, we know Larry's stats would've been much better if he was a 1-man team.. Guys like MJ, Kobe, Lebron always put up their best individual stats when they had their 1-man teams.. Their stats are therefore overstated in comparison to Bird's, since he always had to defer to other star teammates.

Bird's style of play isn't suited to carry scrubs like LBJ is capable of. He was mostly and off ball player, coming of screens and posting up. Now that's great if you have a Draymond Green or a Wade on your team, guys that can take advantage that the defense's main focus is Bird. But if you have players that can't do shit on their own then you have a problem. Without looking it up I can say that most players FG% increased when playing with Lebron. Mo Williams was a ****ing all star:oldlol: Look at Chalmers, who went from scoring 20+ in NBA Finals games to making me punch him through the screen when he was playing for the Heat last year. Look at Delly.
It's not about stats, it's about how the team performs. I don't give a shit about Jordan's late 80's stats or Kobe's stats in 2006, not when we are talking about improving your teammates and making an impact on how your team performs.

[LAZERUSS]

Well you and I see things differently. You are crediting Magic with 80, 82 and 83 as 3 to 1 vs Bird and this is based on LA making the finals thru weak west. Bird won ROY and was better player. Magic's game 6 of finals was incredible but 1 game does not a season make. KAJ actually won the FMVP after game 6 then CBS freaked out and asked voters to change votes so Magic could win. Counting that FMVP as Magic's is weak. As for 82 and 83, KAJ was still the focal point and best Laker on team. You are propping up Magic for LA success when for the entire body of work Bird was the better player - (MVP voting shows this). Then in 85 you give Magic all the credit for directing the offense (none to Pat Riley?) when KAJ in the 4 wins vs Boston avg 30.2 pts, 11.3 rebounds, 6.5 assists and 2 blocks! Magic and Bird in 85 finals was a wash and Birds body of work in 85 was better.
Dave Heeren authored "Basketball Abstract" and used the "tendex" system to measure a players performance. He had Bird as MVP for 4 years of the 80's and player of the decade.

Yes, I am crediting Magic with a 3-1 margin from '80 thru '83. You mention that the "weak West" in that time frame. Aside from the '81 Sixers, who did Boston beat in that time frame? Hell, they didn't even have first round games in that span.

So, Bird engineered a miraculous comeback from a 3-1 deficit against a Sixers team that Magic's Lakers DESTROYED in '80 and '82. Not only that, but Magic won a clinching Finals game without LA's second best player.

'83? Well, Magic's Lakers, without Worthy, were swept by the Sixers. So what? Bird's Celtics were swept by a huge under-dog Milwaukee team. A team that the Sixers would annihilate 4-1.

In fact, and again, Magic's teams beat more 50+ and 60+ win teams in his post-season career than Bird did.

And the reality was, aside from a their stunning win over the '84 Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and that come-from-behind series win over the '81 Sixers (again, to a team that the Lakers manhandled in '80 and '82)...where were those signature series wins for Bird? And even '84 is tainted somewhat. The Lakers were a Worthy pass away from winning that series, and then either a Magic, or Worthy FT away from SWEEPING Boston. Even Bird claimed that LA should have swept them.

Of course, we saw what happened when the two went H2H again in '85 and '87. After sleep-walking thru game one of the '85 Finals, the Lakers won four of the next five including a blowout retribution in game three, and the clinching win on Boston's home floor in game six. And in '87, LA was a mere six points in game three, of sweeping the Celtics. As it was, three of their wins were blowouts. If they had continued to play that series for another month, I doubt Boston would have won a game.

And you claim that Magic wasn't LA's best player in the '85 Finals. Well, Bird certainly wasn't Boston's best player in that series, either. In fact, he wasn't close. And no, Bird did not have a better post-season run. Again, MAGIC was directing that Laker offense. Think about this...the '85 Lakers averaged 126 ppg in the post-season (allowing 116 ppg.) And KAJ was a key contributo, to be sure, but he still only averaged 22 ppg in that post-season. Furthermore, remove LA';s game one of the Finals, when they were blown out by a 148-114 margin...and in which they responded with a 136-111 win a couple of nights later...and they would have had a +12.6 ppg margin in that post-season.

As for Magic's FMVP in '80. First of all, the man put up a 22-11-9 series on a .573 FG% and .632 TS%. Secondly, we will never know what numbers he would have put up without Kareem, but we do KNOW that in the one game that KAJ missed, Magic hung a 42-15-7 game (BTW those 15 rebounds were five more than anyone else who played in that game)...on 14-23 and 14-14. AND, the Lakers had the only blowout win of that series.

Furthermore, Magic was ROBBED of a FMVP in '88. Completely ROBBED. BTW, he torched that Piston team to the tune 21-6-13 and on a .550 FG%. How did Bird fare against that same Piston team in the ECF's? A 20-12-6 series on...get this...a .351 FG%!

And I do not care what this Heeren character claimed. Magic was EASILY the best player of the decade of the 80's. Bird had his peak...from '84-86 (and even that is marred by the fact that Magic beat him in '85) with a SLIGHT edge over Magic's peak from '87-89. But after that...ALL Magic, ALL the time.

Bird has ZERO case for GOAT. Magic had the highest W-L% in NBA history, and in 12 seasons, he took NINE teams to the Finals, and won five rings. And had he not missed the last half of '81, and the last three games of the '89 Finals, probably two more rings. And he was a single pass away from winning another ring in '84 (which would have given him a 6-2 career margin over Bird.) And with a healthy Worthy in '83? Who knows. In any case, he could easily have won 2-3 more rings. He IS in the GOAT discussion.

[Wade's Rings]

He, nor even MJ at his peak, would have won last year's Finals against an all-time great Warriors team, and playing without his two best teammates.

People forget that MJ's '87 Bulls were swept by a 59-23 Celtics team that was on the downside, and in a series in which Jordan shot .417,m and went 9-35 in the clincher. Hell, he had a teammate, Oakley, who hung a 20-15 series, and they were still swept.

So no way in hell does Bird or Jordan take last year's cast of clowns to a win over that 67-15 Warriors team, and with their second best player being JR Smith (who has as much business being in the NBA as I do.) In fact, Lebron single-handedly won two games, and narrowly lost two more, all wth Smith, Deli, and Shumpert (the Three Stooges) shooting .326, .283, and .258 in that series.


And the Lebron-bashers never bring up the FACT that every team he has joined has improved DRAMATICALLY, and every team he has left has crumbled completely.

How about this...in his rookie season, he took a team with it's best player the year before, the clown of a center, Big Z, from a 17 wins, to 35. "Big Z" an all-star? What a joke.

In his third seasom Lebron took that wretched cast to their first ever Finals. Within a couple of years the Cavs were going 66-16 (a team record), and 61-21.

Lebron bolted for Miami. What happened to his Cavs? 19-63.

Meanwhile, Lebron's new team improved from a 47-35 and a first round exit, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals.

Lebron would carry those Heat teams to four straight Finals, dominating in two of them, and had virtually zero help in his last Finals there. BTW, before someone brings up Wade...he was already on the downslide, and by their 4th season was nearly worthless. Oh, and in the games that Wade missed...Miami went 47-18.

Ok, Lebron left the Heat. And without him, Wade and the "10 time All-Star" Bosh (who couldn't hold Horace Grant's jock) plummeted to a 37-45 record and didn't even make the playoffs.

Lebron then took a Cavs team that had gone 33-49 the year before, to a 53-29 record, and yet again, another Finals. Oh, and without Lebron, the Cavs went 3-10...with him, 50-19!

And it's not like Bird didn't have his share of post-season flop jobs, either. Hell, he WON his first ring with a 15 ppg Finals on a .419 FG%. After that, he put up two horrific post-season runs in '82 and '83. In '87, he played one good game in the Finals, and his team was blown out in it. And in '88, he single-handedly took his Celtics down in flames against the Bad Boys with a .351 FG%.

This guy is a joke of a poster.

[dubeta]

This guy is a joke of a poster.

u mad bro?

[Wade's Rings]

u mad bro?

I'm steamed.

[mr4speed]

Yes, I am crediting Magic with a 3-1 margin from '80 thru '83. You mention that the "weak West" in that time frame. Aside from the '81 Sixers, who did Boston beat in that time frame? Hell, they didn't even have first round games in that span.

So, Bird engineered a miraculous comeback from a 3-1 deficit against a Sixers team that Magic's Lakers DESTROYED in '80 and '82. Not only that, but Magic won a clinching Finals game without LA's second best player.

'83? Well, Magic's Lakers, without Worthy, were swept by the Sixers. So what? Bird's Celtics were swept by a huge under-dog Milwaukee team. A team that the Sixers would annihilate 4-1.

In fact, and again, Magic's teams beat more 50+ and 60+ win teams in his post-season career than Bird did.

And the reality was, aside from a their stunning win over the '84 Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and that come-from-behind series win over the '81 Sixers (again, to a team that the Lakers manhandled in '80 and '82)...where were those signature series wins for Bird? And even '84 is tainted somewhat. The Lakers were a Worthy pass away from winning that series, and then either a Magic, or Worthy FT away from SWEEPING Boston. Even Bird claimed that LA should have swept them.

Of course, we saw what happened when the two went H2H again in '85 and '87. After sleep-walking thru game one of the '85 Finals, the Lakers won four of the next five including a blowout retribution in game three, and the clinching win on Boston's home floor in game six. And in '87, LA was a mere six points in game three, of sweeping the Celtics. As it was, three of their wins were blowouts. If they had continued to play that series for another month, I doubt Boston would have won a game.

And you claim that Magic wasn't LA's best player in the '85 Finals. Well, Bird certainly wasn't Boston's best player in that series, either. In fact, he wasn't close. And no, Bird did not have a better post-season run. Again, MAGIC was directing that Laker offense. Think about this...the '85 Lakers averaged 126 ppg in the post-season (allowing 116 ppg.) And KAJ was a key contributo, to be sure, but he still only averaged 22 ppg in that post-season. Furthermore, remove LA';s game one of the Finals, when they were blown out by a 148-114 margin...and in which they responded with a 136-111 win a couple of nights later...and they would have had a +12.6 ppg margin in that post-season.

As for Magic's FMVP in '80. First of all, the man put up a 22-11-9 series on a .573 FG% and .632 TS%. Secondly, we will never know what numbers he would have put up without Kareem, but we do KNOW that in the one game that KAJ missed, Magic hung a 42-15-7 game (BTW those 15 rebounds were five more than anyone else who played in that game)...on 14-23 and 14-14. AND, the Lakers had the only blowout win of that series.

Furthermore, Magic was ROBBED of a FMVP in '88. Completely ROBBED. BTW, he torched that Piston team to the tune 21-6-13 and on a .550 FG%. How did Bird fare against that same Piston team in the ECF's? A 20-12-6 series on...get this...a .351 FG%!

And I do not care what this Heeren character claimed. Magic was EASILY the best player of the decade of the 80's. Bird had his peak...from '84-86 (and even that is marred by the fact that Magic beat him in '85) with a SLIGHT edge over Magic's peak from '87-89. But after that...ALL Magic, ALL the time.

Bird has ZERO case for GOAT. Magic had the highest W-L% in NBA history, and in 12 seasons, he took NINE teams to the Finals, and won five rings. And had he not missed the last half of '81, and the last three games of the '89 Finals, probably two more rings. And he was a single pass away from winning another ring in '84 (which would have given him a 6-2 career margin over Bird.) And with a healthy Worthy in '83? Who knows. In any case, he could easily have won 2-3 more rings. He IS in the GOAT discussion.
I never said Bird had a case for GOAT and to be honest neither does Magic - you need to get off the Magic cool-aid!! You say LA "destroyed" sixers in 80 and 82 - 4 wins to 2 each year is destroyed? No, LA losing 4-0 to sixers in 83 was being destroyed. Your arguments are full of "what ifs" about a pass here and a free throw there? Get a grip on reality. If you love Magic that is great but he did not carry LA to 9 trips to the finals. In the 1980 finals Magic also set an NBA record for turnovers in 6 games = 30. Magic also holds the record for turnovers in finals in 83 at 24 in 4 games and in 7 games in 84 at 31 turnovers. The fact is KAJ won the FMVP after game 6. Magic was not better than Bird in 85 finals = a wash, the FMVP was KAJ. Bird played bad in 88 vs Pistons + like I said earlier had the flu in 83 vs Bucks. Magic in 81 vs Rockets was horrible and he returned in game # 65 so he had 17 games to get back into his groove, he was not in playoffs fresh from injury. All players have bad games and series but you seem blind to Magic's.
If you try to claim FMVP for Magic in 88 then you have to give Bird the FMVP in 81 ( his line of 15.3 - 15.3 - 7.0 was way better than Maxwell of 17.7 - 9.5 - 2.8) And Dave Hereen is a more credible source than your opinions.
Magic's overall win % was .73951 (670 of 906) Bird's win % was .73578 (660 of 897) almost identical BUT Bird played in a much tougher conf!!!

[diamenz]

i vote bird.

[Milbuck]

Lebron is a tank that can carry horrible offensive teams to much greater heights than Bird can. Bird is a much more portable weapon that can fit seamlessly into super talented teams better than Lebron. Really depends on what you have. They both elevate their teammates on a similar level but it depends on the players to determine to what extent they elevate them IMO.

Like if it was a 2011 Bulls type team minus DRose where you have just a bunch of tough minded, high energy defensive guys with a few solid offensive players and you need a juggernaut offensive player to run your offense and do everything...I'd take Lebron.

If it's a balanced, super talented team loaded with shooters, playmakers, ballhandlers like Golden State minus Curry and you need a superstar to put it all together who has the skill-set and on and off ball versatility to let all those creators thrive...it's Bird.

I think in the end it's Lebron because I think his edge in elevating shitty players/shitty teams is bigger than Bird's edge in adapting to super talented teams. I think last year's Cavs post-trades in the regular season before they lost guys in the playoffs showed how Lebron has developed in his ability to adapt to other high end talent.

[LAZERUSS]

I never said Bird had a case for GOAT and to be honest neither does Magic - you need to get off the Magic cool-aid!! You say LA "destroyed" sixers in 80 and 82 - 4 wins to 2 each year is destroyed? No, LA losing 4-0 to sixers in 83 was being destroyed. Your arguments are full of "what ifs" about a pass here and a free throw there? Get a grip on reality. If you love Magic that is great but he did not carry LA to 9 trips to the finals. In the 1980 finals Magic also set an NBA record for turnovers in 6 games = 30. Magic also holds the record for turnovers in finals in 83 at 24 in 4 games and in 7 games in 84 at 31 turnovers. The fact is KAJ won the FMVP after game 6. Magic was not better than Bird in 85 finals = a wash, the FMVP was KAJ. Bird played bad in 88 vs Pistons + like I said earlier had the flu in 83 vs Bucks. Magic in 81 vs Rockets was horrible and he returned in game # 65 so he had 17 games to get back into his groove, he was not in playoffs fresh from injury. All players have bad games and series but you seem blind to Magic's.
If you try to claim FMVP for Magic in 88 then you have to give Bird the FMVP in 81 ( his line of 15.3 - 15.3 - 7.0 was way better than Maxwell of 17.7 - 9.5 - 2.8) And Dave Hereen is a more credible source than your opinions.
Magic's overall win % was .73951 (670 of 906) Bird's win % was .73578 (660 of 897) almost identical BUT Bird played in a much tougher conf!!!

1. The '80 and '82 Lakers EASILY beat the Sixers. Again, Magic could lose LA's second best player, and still lead a rout of those Sixers.

2. There are "what if's", and then there are "WHAT IF's"
ONE ERRANT PASS away from beating Boston in the '84 Finals (and he surely would have won the FMVP had that occurred.)

Larry Bird after that Finals:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/03/sports/la-sp-0603-lakers-celtics-finals-20100603


The Lakers were better. Larry Bird said it himself: "To be honest, they should have swept."

BTW, "Tragic" Johnson in that series...LED his team in rebounding, and put up an 18-8-14 .560 FG% series.


3. Turnovers. Yep...with Magic handling the ball on nearly every possession. But let's look at some other post-season records for Magic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_career_pla yoff_assists_leaders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_post-season_records



5-game series
Most assists - 62 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Chicago Bulls), 1991 (12.4 apg)

6-game series
Most assists - 84 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Boston Celtics), 1985 (14.0 apg)

Most steals - 16 by Julius Erving, Philadelphia 76ers (vs. Portland Trail Blazers), 1977; Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Philadelphia 76ers), 1980; Larry Bird, Boston Celtics (vs. Houston Rockets), 1986; and Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat (vs. Dallas Mavericks), 2006

7-game series
Most assists - 95 by Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers (vs. Boston Celtics), 1984 (13.6 apg) Incidently, that came in the '84 Finals, and against Bird's Celtics.

Career:
Most assists
584 by Magic Johnson

Highest assists per game average (min. 10 games)
11.7 by Magic Johnson (50 games)

Most steals
102 by Magic Johnson



Just some food for thought there.

4. You claim Bird played well in his '81 Finals, and Magic poorly in his '81 playoff series against the Rockets. Sure, it was arguably the worst post-season series of Magic's career...and all he did was average a 17-14-7 (yes, 14 rpg.) And sure he shot poorly, at .388, but that was still considerably higher than Bird's '88 ECF's (.351.)

Oh, and Magic's "awful" '83 Finals...19-8-13 (on a poor .403 FG%...but again, this was considered a poor post-season series for Magic.)


5. Magic was FAR better in his '88 Finals, than Bird was in his '81. Incidently, you forgot to post Bird's and Maxwell's FG%'s in the '81 Finals...Maxwell at .567, and Bird at .419. And Magic's '88 Finals came against the Bad Boys. Bird's '81 Finals came against a 40-42 Rockets team that somehow took the Celtics to 6 games.

And again, Magic DESERVED his '80 FMVP. You would be hard-pressed to find anyone else with a 22-11-9 .632 TS% Finals. Nor a clinching game of 42-15-7 on 14-23 and 14-14. Or the fact that Bird had back-to-back games of 8 points on 3-11 shooting in each.

6. Dave Heeren is a more credible source than I am? Why? Because he published some article with LESS research than what I presented?

If you believe him, then surely you must also believe long-time Celtics homer, and publisher of "The Book of Basketball", Bill Simmons (who I think is a complete idiot BTW.) Simmons has Magic over Bird, as well. And that is saying something coming from that Laker-hater.


Look, just because someone publishes a book, or an article, doesn't make them an "expert." The last time I checked Billingsley's Top-200 College teams of all-time, back in 2006, I could have shredded his "formula" with MY RESEARCH until the comes came home.


7. Magic's career W-L% with a .740 to .736 edge (and .743 in his entire career without Kareem BTW.)

Now, go ahead and post their post-season W-L%.

I'll help you:

Magic 128-61 or a .677
Bird 99-65 or a .603.

And please, don't bring up the "weak Western Conference" either. The FACT was, Magic was beating the best teams from the Eastern Conference, including Bird's Celtics, and beating the same teams that were knocking Bird out of them. Again, Magic won against more 50+ and 60+ post-season teams than Bird did.


Finally...you are a good poster, and I respect your opinions. And I don't like arguing with those that I respect. So, ultimately we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

[bizil]

Bron is arguably the most versatile player of all time. He can LEGIT say he is a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder for his position, and great defender. And from there, he comes as close to ANYBODY as being able to play and defend five positions. So basically, Bron can cover more holes than Bird.

BUT that doesn't really mean that Bron makes his teammates better than Bird either. Bird was one of the RARE SUPERSTAR PERIMETER PLAYERS who could dominate a game with minimal dribbling involved. He could dominate a game by catching and shooting from all over the court. From a standstill position or off a single dribble, he was as good of a passer who has ever played.

And of course he was as clutch who as ever played. These things lead to epic floor spacing AND no wasted motion. Which OF COURSE will make teammates better. Among perimeter players, I think Bird has the most impressive career average statline.

When it comes to Bird and Bron, I think they are ABSOLUTELY on the same level. If your team is in need of an alpha dog to make the team better, Bird is the pick. If your team has a TON OF HOLES that need to be filled, Bron is your guy.

[mr4speed]

1. The '80 and '82 Lakers EASILY beat the Sixers. Again, Magic could lose LA's second best player, and still lead a rout of those Sixers.

2. There are "what if's", and then there are "WHAT IF's"
ONE ERRANT PASS away from beating Boston in the '84 Finals (and he surely would have won the FMVP had that occurred.)

Larry Bird after that Finals:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/03/sports/la-sp-0603-lakers-celtics-finals-20100603



BTW, "Tragic" Johnson in that series...LED his team in rebounding, and put up an 18-8-14 .560 FG% series.


3. Turnovers. Yep...with Magic handling the ball on nearly every possession. But let's look at some other post-season records for Magic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_career_pla yoff_assists_leaders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_post-season_records



Just some food for thought there.

4. You claim Bird played well in his '81 Finals, and Magic poorly in his '81 playoff series against the Rockets. Sure, it was arguably the worst post-season series of Magic's career...and all he did was average a 17-14-7 (yes, 14 rpg.) And sure he shot poorly, at .388, but that was still considerably higher than Bird's '88 ECF's (.351.)

Oh, and Magic's "awful" '83 Finals...19-8-13 (on a poor .403 FG%...but again, this was considered a poor post-season series for Magic.)


5. Magic was FAR better in his '88 Finals, than Bird was in his '81. Incidently, you forgot to post Bird's and Maxwell's FG%'s in the '81 Finals...Maxwell at .567, and Bird at .419. And Magic's '88 Finals came against the Bad Boys. Bird's '81 Finals came against a 40-42 Rockets team that somehow took the Celtics to 6 games.

And again, Magic DESERVED his '80 FMVP. You would be hard-pressed to find anyone else with a 22-11-9 .632 TS% Finals. Nor a clinching game of 42-15-7 on 14-23 and 14-14. Or the fact that Bird had back-to-back games of 8 points on 3-11 shooting in each.

6. Dave Heeren is a more credible source than I am? Why? Because he published some article with LESS research than what I presented?

If you believe him, then surely you must also believe long-time Celtics homer, and publisher of "The Book of Basketball", Bill Simmons (who I think is a complete idiot BTW.) Simmons has Magic over Bird, as well. And that is saying something coming from that Laker-hater.


Look, just because someone publishes a book, or an article, doesn't make them an "expert." The last time I checked Billingsley's Top-200 College teams of all-time, back in 2006, I could have shredded his "formula" with MY RESEARCH until the comes came home.


7. Magic's career W-L% with a .740 to .736 edge (and .743 in his entire career without Kareem BTW.)

Now, go ahead and post their post-season W-L%.

I'll help you:

Magic 128-61 or a .677
Bird 99-65 or a .603.

And please, don't bring up the "weak Western Conference" either. The FACT was, Magic was beating the best teams from the Eastern Conference, including Bird's Celtics, and beating the same teams that were knocking Bird out of them. Again, Magic won against more 50+ and 60+ post-season teams than Bird did.


Finally...you are a good poster, and I respect your opinions. And I don't like arguing with those that I respect. So, ultimately we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

I will agree to disagree. Much respect for your posts that I have read. You do your research and usually have great info. I have learned alot from what you have shown but there is to much bias ( in my opinion) towards giving Magic credit for all of LA's success. The 80 FMVP most deserving candidate was KAJ. His line for 5 games was 33.4 pts 13.6 reb 3.2 Ast + 4.6 blocks!! Especially after KAJ won the votes after game 6!! For the 81 finals people forget Maxwell's terrible game 2 of 6 points, 4 reb, 2 assists, yet people want to throw dirt on Bird for his game 3 line of 8pts, 13reb, 10 ast + game 4 line of 8 pts, 12 reb, 7 ast. Bird clearly did much more than Max besides scoring. And in game 6 Bird was huge late in the 4th quarter with clutch jumpers, good passing and put the game away with a corner 3 pointer. The difference here is big between the attention Bird got from the opposing team on D vs Magic. The focus was on stopping KAJ.
Dave Heeren has not written articles but rather has published books about basketball. His analysis showed how the east vs west was dominated ( all teams included) by the east for all 10 years. Showing Magic's post season is skewing that stats for Magic. Lets look at Magic's Lakers vs the East in the finals. LA won 24 games and lost 27 games vs east. Magic missed 2 games in 89 vs Det so lets say Magic was 24 wins and 25 losses - that is still a 48.9% win % and would never lead to 9 trips to the finals if LA was in eastern conf. LA vs their weak west conf opponents went 103 wins and 33 losses for a win % of 75.73% BUT vs east (48.9%) represents a drop of 26.8% = don't talk about the west being the same, it wasn't!
Also Heeren isn't the only author to pick Bird over Magic. Elliott Kalb was the sports statistician for ABC and ESPN. His book "Who's better, Who's best in basketball" also has Bird over Magic. This doesn't "prove" anything except that neither player is head and shoulders above the other. But your posts have "all Magic, all the time" and "runaway for Magic" and "not even close" and I beg to differ. There are plenty of references from Magic himself in both his books "My Life" and "Touch" where he talks candidly about being afraid to take the last shot in a game (early years in his career) and his poor defense because of the zone he played at MSU. Bird was the better player for the first 7 seasons for a variety of reasons, all of which we can go more in-depth if you wish. I loved watching both play but I feel you have put Magic on too lofty a perch.

[LAZERUSS]

I will agree to disagree. Much respect for your posts that I have read. You do your research and usually have great info. I have learned alot from what you have shown but there is to much bias ( in my opinion) towards giving Magic credit for all of LA's success. The 80 FMVP most deserving candidate was KAJ. His line for 5 games was 33.4 pts 13.6 reb 3.2 Ast + 4.6 blocks!! Especially after KAJ won the votes after game 6!! For the 81 finals people forget Maxwell's terrible game 2 of 6 points, 4 reb, 2 assists, yet people want to throw dirt on Bird for his game 3 line of 8pts, 13reb, 10 ast + game 4 line of 8 pts, 12 reb, 7 ast. Bird clearly did much more than Max besides scoring. And in game 6 Bird was huge late in the 4th quarter with clutch jumpers, good passing and put the game away with a corner 3 pointer. The difference here is big between the attention Bird got from the opposing team on D vs Magic. The focus was on stopping KAJ.
Dave Heeren has not written articles but rather has published books about basketball. His analysis showed how the east vs west was dominated ( all teams included) by the east for all 10 years. Showing Magic's post season is skewing that stats for Magic. Lets look at Magic's Lakers vs the East in the finals. LA won 24 games and lost 27 games vs east. Magic missed 2 games in 89 vs Det so lets say Magic was 24 wins and 25 losses - that is still a 48.9% win % and would never lead to 9 trips to the finals if LA was in eastern conf. LA vs their weak west conf opponents went 103 wins and 33 losses for a win % of 75.73% BUT vs east (48.9%) represents a drop of 26.8% = don't talk about the west being the same, it wasn't!
Also Heeren isn't the only author to pick Bird over Magic. Elliott Kalb was the sports statistician for ABC and ESPN. His book "Who's better, Who's best in basketball" also has Bird over Magic. This doesn't "prove" anything except that neither player is head and shoulders above the other. But your posts have "all Magic, all the time" and "runaway for Magic" and "not even close" and I beg to differ. There are plenty of references from Magic himself in both his books "My Life" and "Touch" where he talks candidly about being afraid to take the last shot in a game (early years in his career) and his poor defense because of the zone he played at MSU. Bird was the better player for the first 7 seasons for a variety of reasons, all of which we can go more in-depth if you wish. I loved watching both play but I feel you have put Magic on too lofty a perch.

:cheers:

IMHO, Bird is somewhere between 8-10 all-time, and Magic is in the Top-5. And, in terms of absolute peak play, I would take a peak Bird and a peak KAJ over Magic. Peak being a three-year window. In both cases, though, it would be very close.

But, IMHO, Bird seems to be slightly over-rated, and Hakeem is wildly over-rated. I won't get into the Hakeem nonsense, now, but the reality was, Olajuwon was seldom even considered a Top-5 player in his own era.

On the flip side, it appears that KAJ is also considerably over-rated, as well. I find it interesting that there are those that have KAJ above Wilt, and in some cases, even above MJ.

How do the KAJ fans explain his lack of team success in his prime? And yet rip Wilt, who was a greater winner in his (and far more dominant, as well.) Hell, in their four years in the league together, a way-past-his-prime Chamberlain had a considerable edge over a peak Kareem in terms of "winning."

Furthermore, you can minimize KAJ's five rings in the Magic-era rather easily. For instance, in his one season in which he was considered LA's best player, he had a magnificent post-season run. You highlighted his Finals, which were exceptional. BUT, the man missed the most crucial game of the series, and yet, with Magic hanging one of the greatest clinching games in NBA history, the Lakers won easily, and on the road, to boot. It would have been one thing had KAJ played in that game six, and had just an average game. But, he didn't play at all, and the Lakers played better without him.

In the first round of the '81 playoffs, Magic, for whatever reason (I still say missing 45 games in the second half of the season), played relatively poorly, and LA lost a silly best-of-three series. I seriously doubt that a 40-42 team would have beaten those Lakers in a best-of-seven. In any case, what is often overlooked was the fact that KAJ was manhandled by Moses in that series, as well.

In the '82 Finals, the Lakers got the same production from Bob McAdoo, except in considerably less minutes, as they did from Kareem. I'll be brutally honest, had the Lakers filled in Kareem's minutes with their bench players, including McAdoo, they likely would still have won a ring.

In the '83 Finals, and without Worthy, the Lakers were swept by the Sixers. It was deceptive, however, as the last three games were all close. In any case, Moses just abused Kareem in that series.

In the '84 Finals, Kareem shot .481 from the field (Magic was at .560 BTW.) And in the pivotal game five loss, KAJ went 7-25 from the floor. Again, Magic was labeled "Tragic", but he led LA in rpg, handed out a playoff record series in assists, and was highly efficient. There was blame to go all around, of course, but the bottom line was that LA handed that series to Bird's Celtics.

KAJ finally was a major piece in the '85 Finals...albeit, Magic was their true playoff MVP. So there is a mixed bag even in this ring. Magic, as he would do for their last eight seasons together, outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting. That is not always a true indication, of course, but by '85 Magic was considered the better player.

'86 was interesting from the standpoint that KAJ just shelled Hakeem and the Rockets during the regular season. However, Fitch moved Sampson on Kareem in the WCF's, and he held him down just enough to pull a stunning upset. If you can call a 27 ppg series "holding him down."

In '87 Magic was not only the leader of the Lakers, as he had been from day one, but was now the offensive leader, as well. His '87 Finals were one for the ages, too. A 26-8-13 .541, .960 series in which he was, by far, the best player on the floor. As for Kareem, he won another ring...however, as a "third wheel." I have long maintained that Riley could have given KAJ's minutes to Thompson and Green, and they were still so dominant, that they would have won a title without KAJ.

'88. This was simply a case of KAJ winning a ring in which he contributed practically nothing. He might as well have been Adam Morrison. He was ordinary in the regular season; played poorly in the post-season; was awful in the seven game Finals; and was horrific in game seven of the Finals. The Lakers would have been just as well off with Betty White. Magic was brilliant in that Finals, and was completely robbed of the FMVP. BTW, there have been some who have compared Worthy's '88 FMVP with Magic's '80 FMVP. Huge difference. Magic PLAYED in game seven, and played well. He hung a 19-5-15 game, and on a .731 TS%.

'89. The Lakers came into the Finals at 11-0. Unfortunately, they lost Byron Scott, and his 20 ppg in the WCF's. Then, Magic went down midway in game 2 (and with the score tied), and after that, the Lakers were swept. In any case, KAJ was worthless and retired.

So, I don't hold KAJ's six rings in nearly as high a regard as many here do.

The bottom line...Magic took a slightly above average team to an immediate world title in his first season, and in his next 11, they went to eight more Finals, and won four more rings. He "retired" and they immediately plunged to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

THAT was Magic's doing.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

I will agree to disagree. Much respect for your posts that I have read. You do your research and usually have great info. I have learned alot from what you have shown but there is to much bias ( in my opinion) towards giving Magic credit for all of LA's success. The 80 FMVP most deserving candidate was KAJ. His line for 5 games was 33.4 pts 13.6 reb 3.2 Ast + 4.6 blocks!! Especially after KAJ won the votes after game 6!! For the 81 finals people forget Maxwell's terrible game 2 of 6 points, 4 reb, 2 assists, yet people want to throw dirt on Bird for his game 3 line of 8pts, 13reb, 10 ast + game 4 line of 8 pts, 12 reb, 7 ast. Bird clearly did much more than Max besides scoring. And in game 6 Bird was huge late in the 4th quarter with clutch jumpers, good passing and put the game away with a corner 3 pointer. The difference here is big between the attention Bird got from the opposing team on D vs Magic. The focus was on stopping KAJ.
Dave Heeren has not written articles but rather has published books about basketball. His analysis showed how the east vs west was dominated ( all teams included) by the east for all 10 years. Showing Magic's post season is skewing that stats for Magic. Lets look at Magic's Lakers vs the East in the finals. LA won 24 games and lost 27 games vs east. Magic missed 2 games in 89 vs Det so lets say Magic was 24 wins and 25 losses - that is still a 48.9% win % and would never lead to 9 trips to the finals if LA was in eastern conf. LA vs their weak west conf opponents went 103 wins and 33 losses for a win % of 75.73% BUT vs east (48.9%) represents a drop of 26.8% = don't talk about the west being the same, it wasn't!
Also Heeren isn't the only author to pick Bird over Magic. Elliott Kalb was the sports statistician for ABC and ESPN. His book "Who's better, Who's best in basketball" also has Bird over Magic. This doesn't "prove" anything except that neither player is head and shoulders above the other. But your posts have "all Magic, all the time" and "runaway for Magic" and "not even close" and I beg to differ. There are plenty of references from Magic himself in both his books "My Life" and "Touch" where he talks candidly about being afraid to take the last shot in a game (early years in his career) and his poor defense because of the zone he played at MSU. Bird was the better player for the first 7 seasons for a variety of reasons, all of which we can go more in-depth if you wish. I loved watching both play but I feel you have put Magic on too lofty a perch.

Your "48.9%" is very deceptive. The Lakers played the "cream-of-the-crop" in the Finals. You must remember that Boston didn't even have a first round game from '80 thru '82. And in that same span, they faced a 41-41 Rockets team, a 45-37 Bulls team, and a 43-39 Bullets team in the next round.

And from '84 to '88 they faced 43-39, 35-47, 36-46, 30-52, 40-42, and 38-44 teams in the first round.

The reality was, they really only faced true title contenders in the '80 ECF's (and were wiped out 4-1); '81 (and barely won a game seven); in '82 (and were beaten 4-3); in '85 (an impressive 4-1 win); and in '88 (a 4-2 series loss.)

They didn't even make the ECF's in '83; the best team they faced in the East in '84 was a 50-32 team; in '86 they waltzed thru a post-season East where the biggest test was from a 57-25 Milwaukee team (4-0 win)); and the Pistons were not a legit title contender in '87.

The reality was, Bird's Celtics rarely played true powerhouse teams from the East in the decade of the 80's. And they generally lost to them when they did ('80, '82, and '88...and they didn't even face the vaunted '83 Sixers.)


On the flip side, LA played the equivalent of Boston's playoff schedule in the 80's. People forget that the Lakers crushed the defending champion (and 56-26) Sonics in '80. And they wiped out the favored '91 Blazers (63-19) in '91. In between, they were beating multiple 50+ win teams.

And, of course, they beat the best from the East in '80, '82, '85, '87, and '88. And really, all of those teams were stellar caliber. They were swept by the '83 Sixers (without Worthy), but again, Boston never made it against that Sixer team. They lost a series they should have won easily in '84. And they were swept by the Bad Boys in '89 (Boston was swept in the first round by that same team BTW), but they not only lost Magic in game two, they were also playing with 20 ppg scorer Byron Scott.


And who knows how any of those series would have panned out had Boston and LA swapped conferences in the '80's. IMHO, Boston doesn't beat Seattle in '80. They MAY win a ring in '81 (more on that later.) They make the Finals in '82 and are probably routed by LA. '83? Even if they made the Finals, and with an injured Bird that was no guarantee, they would have been swept by the Sixers. They probably win in the '84 Finals...albeit, LA was the better team. They make the Finals in '85 and lose to LA. They win a ring in '86. They make the Finals in '87 and are blown out by LA. They might make the Finals in '88, but are beaten by the Bad Boys. After that...not much.

Overall, had they swapped conferences, Boston goes to eight Finals, and probably wins three of them, but perhaps only two.

Magic's Lakers win in '80, '82, make the Finals in '84. Win the Finals in '85, make the Finals in '86, win in 87, and '88. So, worst case scenario, LA goes to seven Finals in the 80's, and wins five of them. And who knows in '81, when they wouldn't play a first round series. I suspect they get their crap together, and waltz to a title. So, perhaps six rings in seven Finals. And '86 would have been interesting, as well. The '86 Lakers just didn't match up well with the Rockets (which they would address with addition of Thompson in '87.) BUT, given that they handled the Celtics with relative ease in '85 and '87...I suspect that they might very well have beaten the '86 Celtics, as well. Given that scenario, LA possibly would have added the Finals in both '81 and '86, and may have won both of them. That would have meant the Finals in '80, '81, '82, '84, '85, '86, '87, '88...or eight Finals and perhaps rings in 7-8 of them (given that they were really the better team in '84.)


So, the bottom line...this "weak conference vs strong conference argument" was actually a very weak argument. Magic's Lakers had considerably more success against the Eastern Conference than Bird's Celtics did.

[LAZERUSS]

I will agree to disagree. Much respect for your posts that I have read. You do your research and usually have great info. I have learned alot from what you have shown but there is to much bias ( in my opinion) towards giving Magic credit for all of LA's success. The 80 FMVP most deserving candidate was KAJ. His line for 5 games was 33.4 pts 13.6 reb 3.2 Ast + 4.6 blocks!! Especially after KAJ won the votes after game 6!! For the 81 finals people forget Maxwell's terrible game 2 of 6 points, 4 reb, 2 assists, yet people want to throw dirt on Bird for his game 3 line of 8pts, 13reb, 10 ast + game 4 line of 8 pts, 12 reb, 7 ast. Bird clearly did much more than Max besides scoring. And in game 6 Bird was huge late in the 4th quarter with clutch jumpers, good passing and put the game away with a corner 3 pointer. The difference here is big between the attention Bird got from the opposing team on D vs Magic. The focus was on stopping KAJ.
Dave Heeren has not written articles but rather has published books about basketball. His analysis showed how the east vs west was dominated ( all teams included) by the east for all 10 years. Showing Magic's post season is skewing that stats for Magic. Lets look at Magic's Lakers vs the East in the finals. LA won 24 games and lost 27 games vs east. Magic missed 2 games in 89 vs Det so lets say Magic was 24 wins and 25 losses - that is still a 48.9% win % and would never lead to 9 trips to the finals if LA was in eastern conf. LA vs their weak west conf opponents went 103 wins and 33 losses for a win % of 75.73% BUT vs east (48.9%) represents a drop of 26.8% = don't talk about the west being the same, it wasn't!
Also Heeren isn't the only author to pick Bird over Magic. Elliott Kalb was the sports statistician for ABC and ESPN. His book "Who's better, Who's best in basketball" also has Bird over Magic. This doesn't "prove" anything except that neither player is head and shoulders above the other. But your posts have "all Magic, all the time" and "runaway for Magic" and "not even close" and I beg to differ. There are plenty of references from Magic himself in both his books "My Life" and "Touch" where he talks candidly about being afraid to take the last shot in a game (early years in his career) and his poor defense because of the zone he played at MSU. Bird was the better player for the first 7 seasons for a variety of reasons, all of which we can go more in-depth if you wish. I loved watching both play but I feel you have put Magic on too lofty a perch.

I think I have been very fair in my assessment of the Bird-Magic "rivalry."

I have given Bird a slight edge from '84-'86 over Magic's '87-'89.

I have given Magic a reasonable edge in their primes (Bird from '82-88, and Magic from '85-'91.)

And overall, a solid margin in terms of careers.

Bird may have had more votes from '80-'83, but can you really say he had more impact than Magic did in that time-frame? I think Magic was easily the better player from '80-'83.

Bird was the better player (slightly) from '84-86.

Magic was easily better from '87-'88.

And after that, Magic was overwhelmingly better from '89-'91.

Again, I think that is a fair evaluation.


And none of that even includes the "knockout punch." Where they stood in terms of accolades, Finals, and rings...at equal ages.

Magic just routs Bird if you compare what they had accomplished at the same ages.

[mr4speed]

I think I have been very fair in my assessment of the Bird-Magic "rivalry."

I have given Bird a slight edge from '84-'86 over Magic's '87-'89.

I have given Magic a reasonable edge in their primes (Bird from '82-88, and Magic from '85-'91.)

And overall, a solid margin in terms of careers.

Bird may have had more votes from '80-'83, but can you really say he had more impact than Magic did in that time-frame? I think Magic was easily the better player from '80-'83.

Bird was the better player (slightly) from '84-86.

Magic was easily better from '87-'88.

And after that, Magic was overwhelmingly better from '89-'91.

Again, I think that is a fair evaluation.


And none of that even includes the "knockout punch." Where they stood in terms of accolades, Finals, and rings...at equal ages.

Magic just routs Bird if you compare what they had accomplished at the same ages.
I appreciate your honesty and do respect your opinion. Too many on this site make it an insult contest and ruin a good topic. I think we agree on most of what you say = Magic becoming LA's best player in 85 and KAJ tally of 6 rings not as great as 1 might think. I will not throw insults at anyone on this site = if you cannot consider someone else's view point how can you learn? I still disagree with Magic being the better player early in his career, but I am not going to try to convince you otherwise - what if I am biased and don't know it? The crux of our difference = 80, 82 + 83. Here's why I choose Bird. Magic in his 1st 3 yrs did not make the all NBA team, Bird did. Bird had 3 all def team selections ( 2nd team) to zero selections for Magic. From Magic himself pg 100 of "My Life" .".for me there was an even bigger problem-the NBA's intense 1 on 1 defense. In college we played a zone...Now I was expected to stop some of the most explosive scorers...it wasn't fun. World Free scored like 40 pts against me. Paul Westphal did the same. Dennis Johnson killed me, then George Gervin. I started to wonder, can I guard anyone in this league". Bird was the better defender at this time .In 82 playoffs Bird vs Dr J put up 18.3 pts, 14.1 reb 7.3 ast for 39.7 total. Dr J put up 19 pts, 6.7 reb, 3.7 ast for 29.4 total (sixers won in 7). Next was 82 finals and Magic put up 16.2pts, 10.8 reb, 8.0 ast for 35.0 total. Dr J put up 25.0pts, 8.2 reb, 3.3 ast for 36.5 total. (LA won in 6) Look at each players lines = Bird had more impact. Also note in game 2 Magic WAS assigned to guard Dr J and DR had 24 pts and 16 reb in Sixer win.
This from Magic's "Touch" pg 74 @ taking the last shot of a game.."Kareem, Jaamal, and Norm all wanted the big shot. But when my turn came, I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it...to just set up the offense and take the jump shot? No way. Kareem was 1st option, Jaamal 2nd, Norm 3rd. I just got crumbs, but that was cool, thats all I wanted. But that attitude caught up w me in 84 during championship series w Boston" Now compare that to Bird, who not only wanted the ball but also would interrupt the coach and demand the ball and ask his teammates "do you want to win this game?" Bird was a better clutch shooter than Magic at this time. Bird played with an attitude, he was reckless, he got into fights, all this gave his game an edge that Magic just did not have. Magic seemed too passive (sorry for the pun) and seemed to coast because he had Kareem and had the better team. The ROY + MVP balloting reflected this and you could see it on the floor. As for stat lines (reg sea) 80 Bird was 21.3 pts, 10.4 reb, 4.5 ast for total =36.2 Magic was 18.0 pts, 7.7reb, 7.3ast for total = 33 (adv Bird)
for 82 reg sea. Bird 22.9pts,10.9 reb, 5.8ast, for total = 39.6 Magic was 18.6pts, 9.6reb, 9.5ast for total = 37.7 (adv Bird)
for 83 reg sea. Bird 23.6pts, 11reb, 5.8 ast for total = 40.4 Magic was 16.8pts, 8.6reb, 10.5ast for total = 35.9 (adv Bird)
Add Birds better defense, clutch shooting for game-winners and leadership (at this time KAJ was still the leader for LA)and I feel Bird was the more impactful and better player. I feel I have been honest in my assessment and truly feel no disrespect toward you. There are plenty of people on both sides of this debate! I will be travelling this week - so this is my last post. We got off topic from the original thread but it was good!!

[Dr Hawk]

Bron is arguably the most versatile player of all time. He can LEGIT say he is a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder for his position, and great defender. And from there, he comes as close to ANYBODY as being able to play and defend five positions. So basically, Bron can cover more holes than Bird.

BUT that doesn't really mean that Bron makes his teammates better than Bird either. Bird was one of the RARE SUPERSTAR PERIMETER PLAYERS who could dominate a game with minimal dribbling involved. He could dominate a game by catching and shooting from all over the court. From a standstill position or off a single dribble, he was as good of a passer who has ever played.

And of course he was as clutch who as ever played. These things lead to epic floor spacing AND no wasted motion. Which OF COURSE will make teammates better. Among perimeter players, I think Bird has the most impressive career average statline.

When it comes to Bird and Bron, I think they are ABSOLUTELY on the same level. If your team is in need of an alpha dog to make the team better, Bird is the pick. If your team has a TON OF HOLES that need to be filled, Bron is your guy.

:applause: :applause:

[feyki]

1980 ;

Kareem
Erving/Bird
Moses
Magic

1981 ;

Bird
Erving
Moses
Kareem
Gervin

1982 ;

Moses
Erving/Bird
Magic
Kareem

1983 ;

Moses
Bird
Magic
Sidney
Erving

1984 ;

Bird
Magic
King
Kareem/Moses/Dantley/Sidney

1985 ;

Bird
Magic
Kareem
Jordan
Sidney

1986 ;

Bird
Magic/Hakeem
Jordan
Mchale

1987 ;

Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Jordan
Mchale/Worthy

1988 ;

Magic
Jordan/Bird/Hakeem
Worthy

[LAZERUSS]

1980 ;

Kareem
Erving/Bird
Moses
Magic

1981 ;

Bird
Erving
Moses
Kareem
Gervin

1982 ;

Moses
Erving/Bird
Magic
Kareem

1983 ;

Moses
Bird
Magic
Sidney
Erving

1984 ;

Bird
Magic
King
Kareem/Moses/Dantley/Sidney

1985 ;

Bird
Magic
Kareem
Jordan
Sidney

1986 ;

Bird
Magic/Hakeem
Jordan
Mchale

1987 ;

Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Jordan
Mchale/Worthy

1988 ;

Magic
Jordan/Bird/Hakeem
Worthy

It would have been more interesting had they conducted those MVP awards AFTER the playoffs.

I suspect it would have been...

'80 Magic > Bird.
'81 Bird > Magic
'82 Magic > Bird
'83 Magic > Bird
'84 Bird > Magic
'85 Magic > Bird
'86 Bird > Magic
'87 Magic > Bird
'88 Magic > Bird

and then, of course, '89, '90, and '91 to Magic, as well.

I have it...Magic 9-3 Magic.

[LAZERUSS]

I appreciate your honesty and do respect your opinion. Too many on this site make it an insult contest and ruin a good topic. I think we agree on most of what you say = Magic becoming LA's best player in 85 and KAJ tally of 6 rings not as great as 1 might think. I will not throw insults at anyone on this site = if you cannot consider someone else's view point how can you learn? I still disagree with Magic being the better player early in his career, but I am not going to try to convince you otherwise - what if I am biased and don't know it? The crux of our difference = 80, 82 + 83. Here's why I choose Bird. Magic in his 1st 3 yrs did not make the all NBA team, Bird did. Bird had 3 all def team selections ( 2nd team) to zero selections for Magic. From Magic himself pg 100 of "My Life" .".for me there was an even bigger problem-the NBA's intense 1 on 1 defense. In college we played a zone...Now I was expected to stop some of the most explosive scorers...it wasn't fun. World Free scored like 40 pts against me. Paul Westphal did the same. Dennis Johnson killed me, then George Gervin. I started to wonder, can I guard anyone in this league". Bird was the better defender at this time .In 82 playoffs Bird vs Dr J put up 18.3 pts, 14.1 reb 7.3 ast for 39.7 total. Dr J put up 19 pts, 6.7 reb, 3.7 ast for 29.4 total (sixers won in 7). Next was 82 finals and Magic put up 16.2pts, 10.8 reb, 8.0 ast for 35.0 total. Dr J put up 25.0pts, 8.2 reb, 3.3 ast for 36.5 total. (LA won in 6) Look at each players lines = Bird had more impact. Also note in game 2 Magic WAS assigned to guard Dr J and DR had 24 pts and 16 reb in Sixer win.
This from Magic's "Touch" pg 74 @ taking the last shot of a game.."Kareem, Jaamal, and Norm all wanted the big shot. But when my turn came, I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it...to just set up the offense and take the jump shot? No way. Kareem was 1st option, Jaamal 2nd, Norm 3rd. I just got crumbs, but that was cool, thats all I wanted. But that attitude caught up w me in 84 during championship series w Boston" Now compare that to Bird, who not only wanted the ball but also would interrupt the coach and demand the ball and ask his teammates "do you want to win this game?" Bird was a better clutch shooter than Magic at this time. Bird played with an attitude, he was reckless, he got into fights, all this gave his game an edge that Magic just did not have. Magic seemed too passive (sorry for the pun) and seemed to coast because he had Kareem and had the better team. The ROY + MVP balloting reflected this and you could see it on the floor. As for stat lines (reg sea) 80 Bird was 21.3 pts, 10.4 reb, 4.5 ast for total =36.2 Magic was 18.0 pts, 7.7reb, 7.3ast for total = 33 (adv Bird)
for 82 reg sea. Bird 22.9pts,10.9 reb, 5.8ast, for total = 39.6 Magic was 18.6pts, 9.6reb, 9.5ast for total = 37.7 (adv Bird)
for 83 reg sea. Bird 23.6pts, 11reb, 5.8 ast for total = 40.4 Magic was 16.8pts, 8.6reb, 10.5ast for total = 35.9 (adv Bird)
Add Birds better defense, clutch shooting for game-winners and leadership (at this time KAJ was still the leader for LA)and I feel Bird was the more impactful and better player. I feel I have been honest in my assessment and truly feel no disrespect toward you. There are plenty of people on both sides of this debate! I will be travelling this week - so this is my last post. We got off topic from the original thread but it was good!!

:cheers:

As a side-note, Magic was certainly capable of scoring much more than he actually did in his career.

Without looking it up now, I recall about a 15 game stretch at one point in his career, in which he averaged about 30 ppg, with double-digit assists. And in one of those games, he had like 4 points on 2 shots.

Another side-note, in their many career H2H games, guess who had the two highest scoring games between the two? If you guessed Magic, you would have been right (Games of 39 and 37 points.)

Both players are solidly entrenched in the all-time Top-10, and they re-energized the fans. Without them, who knows where the game would be today.

:cheers:

[Dr Hawk]

:cheers:

As a side-note, Magic was certainly capable of scoring much more than he actually did in his career.

Without looking it up now, I recall about a 15 game stretch at one point in his career, in which he averaged about 30 ppg, with double-digit assists. And in one of those games, he had like 4 points on 2 shots.

Another side-note, in their many career H2H games, guess who had the two highest scoring games between the two? If you guessed Magic, you would have been right (Games of 39 and 37 points.)

Both players are solidly entrenched in the all-time Top-10, and they re-energized the fans. Without them, who knows where the game would be today.

:cheers:

Do you have Magic over Shaq and Duncan? I have him over Duncan, but I'm not sure about Shaq.

[LAZERUSS]

I appreciate your honesty and do respect your opinion. Too many on this site make it an insult contest and ruin a good topic. I think we agree on most of what you say = Magic becoming LA's best player in 85 and KAJ tally of 6 rings not as great as 1 might think. I will not throw insults at anyone on this site = if you cannot consider someone else's view point how can you learn? I still disagree with Magic being the better player early in his career, but I am not going to try to convince you otherwise - what if I am biased and don't know it? The crux of our difference = 80, 82 + 83. Here's why I choose Bird. Magic in his 1st 3 yrs did not make the all NBA team, Bird did. Bird had 3 all def team selections ( 2nd team) to zero selections for Magic. From Magic himself pg 100 of "My Life" .".for me there was an even bigger problem-the NBA's intense 1 on 1 defense. In college we played a zone...Now I was expected to stop some of the most explosive scorers...it wasn't fun. World Free scored like 40 pts against me. Paul Westphal did the same. Dennis Johnson killed me, then George Gervin. I started to wonder, can I guard anyone in this league". Bird was the better defender at this time .In 82 playoffs Bird vs Dr J put up 18.3 pts, 14.1 reb 7.3 ast for 39.7 total. Dr J put up 19 pts, 6.7 reb, 3.7 ast for 29.4 total (sixers won in 7). Next was 82 finals and Magic put up 16.2pts, 10.8 reb, 8.0 ast for 35.0 total. Dr J put up 25.0pts, 8.2 reb, 3.3 ast for 36.5 total. (LA won in 6) Look at each players lines = Bird had more impact. Also note in game 2 Magic WAS assigned to guard Dr J and DR had 24 pts and 16 reb in Sixer win.
This from Magic's "Touch" pg 74 @ taking the last shot of a game.."Kareem, Jaamal, and Norm all wanted the big shot. But when my turn came, I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it...to just set up the offense and take the jump shot? No way. Kareem was 1st option, Jaamal 2nd, Norm 3rd. I just got crumbs, but that was cool, thats all I wanted. But that attitude caught up w me in 84 during championship series w Boston" Now compare that to Bird, who not only wanted the ball but also would interrupt the coach and demand the ball and ask his teammates "do you want to win this game?" Bird was a better clutch shooter than Magic at this time. Bird played with an attitude, he was reckless, he got into fights, all this gave his game an edge that Magic just did not have. Magic seemed too passive (sorry for the pun) and seemed to coast because he had Kareem and had the better team. The ROY + MVP balloting reflected this and you could see it on the floor. As for stat lines (reg sea) 80 Bird was 21.3 pts, 10.4 reb, 4.5 ast for total =36.2 Magic was 18.0 pts, 7.7reb, 7.3ast for total = 33 (adv Bird)
for 82 reg sea. Bird 22.9pts,10.9 reb, 5.8ast, for total = 39.6 Magic was 18.6pts, 9.6reb, 9.5ast for total = 37.7 (adv Bird)
for 83 reg sea. Bird 23.6pts, 11reb, 5.8 ast for total = 40.4 Magic was 16.8pts, 8.6reb, 10.5ast for total = 35.9 (adv Bird)
Add Birds better defense, clutch shooting for game-winners and leadership (at this time KAJ was still the leader for LA)and I feel Bird was the more impactful and better player. I feel I have been honest in my assessment and truly feel no disrespect toward you. There are plenty of people on both sides of this debate! I will be travelling this week - so this is my last post. We got off topic from the original thread but it was good!!

I won't agree with your take on the '82 Finals...

http://www.si.com/vault/1982/06/14/624618/the-lakers-danced-up-a-storm


The Lakers so overwhelmed the 76ers in Games 3 and 4 that of the 48 minutes played in each, Los Angeles led by 10 points or more for 35:48 on Tuesday and 33:44 on Thursday. During one remarkable stretch of more than 20 minutes in Game 4—from 4:45 to go in the second quarter until 8:18 to go in the fourth—Los Angeles scored 52 consecutive points without benefit of a jump shot. Just fast-break layups, tip-ins, dunks, follow-ups, free throws, along with skyhooks from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best game of the series: 22 points, 11 rebounds and three blocks. Bob McAdoo shot eight of 13 for 19 points, mostly on jumpers and layups. And just as they had in the previous game, the Lakers assigned Wilkes to cover Toney and put Johnson on Erving. Toney shot 11 for 25 and was never a factor. And while Dr. J got his points—25 on 11-of-15 shooting—Magic was able to keep him away from the boards. Erving had damaged the Lakers with 23 rebounds in the first two games, but in Los Angeles he was held to three in each game.

Putting Magic on the Doctor two years ago, when the Lakers won the championship series also against the Sixers, would have been unthinkable. But this is a different Johnson, not so much Magic as just plain Earvin Johnson Jr. He finished the 1981-82 regular season with more than 700 rebounds and 700 assists, the first player since Wilt Chamberlain in 1967-68 to do so, and he has downplayed the tinsel and glitter that once characterized his game. "There isn't the excitement of his rookie year," Riley says. "Then it was like going to Disneyland every day. Now he comes in and punches the clock like an old pro. But he's still our emotional catalyst. Everybody tunes into him. We struggle when he goes out of the game."

It looks like they inserted Magic on Dr J in game three, not two. And Magic just shut Dr. J off the glass.

And the crux of that article...it was MAGIC who getting the Lakers down the floor for layups. They didn't even take a jump shot in 52 straight points.

And THAT was Magic's IMPACT. He CONTROLLED the games.

[LAZERUSS]

Do you have Magic over Shaq and Duncan? I have him over Duncan, but I'm not sure about Shaq.

I do...

Wilt
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Russell

Shaq
Duncan

Kobe
Lebron
Bird

Dr. J (including his ABA years)
Moses
Hakeem

[feyki]

Lazeruss ;



81 Bird , 84 Bİrd , 86 Bird , 87 Magic and 88 Magic are clear in my mind .

In 1980 , Bird was fourth in mvp voting and he had better impact than Magic in playoffs to me .

1982 , Magic won fmvp as a 16 pts , 8 reb , 14 ast , %59 TS and with just good perimeter defending . He had no rim protection in his career .

Bird got more mvp votes and had better individual impact at 82 .

1983 is most debatable year between them . Magic or Bird , i am fine with two way .

In 1985 , Bird was just better . 1985 Fmvp is Kareem and that wasn't about one game , like Worthy's 88 ; Magic's 80 .

[pudman13]

Magic is the GOAT at that, we know that, but between these two, who do you choose?

I see no reason to think Magic ranks higher than Bird...or Bill Russell for that matter.

[NBASTATMAN]

Lebron is not really good at making stars into great players. That is why you will rarely see a dominant team with Lebron and even his two championships with Miami, they were not an all-time best teams.


probably cuz they lacked size

[Cold soul]

As others said, LeBron can do much more than Bird with shitty teammates, but Bird is better if you have good players on your team.

I agree Lebron might be best ever at leading scrubs deep into playoffs.

[mr4speed]

I won't agree with your take on the '82 Finals...

http://www.si.com/vault/1982/06/14/624618/the-lakers-danced-up-a-storm



It looks like they inserted Magic on Dr J in game three, not two. And Magic just shut Dr. J off the glass.

And the crux of that article...it was MAGIC who getting the Lakers down the floor for layups. They didn't even take a jump shot in 52 straight points.

And THAT was Magic's IMPACT. He CONTROLLED the games.
Excellent post!!! I will have to see what I can find on you tube of this series. I never was aware of a 52 point run without a jumpshot invovled = incredible. I got my info from wikipedia on Magic being assigned to defend Dr J in game 2.
In this game, Laker coach Pat Riley took a different defensive approach, assigning Magic Johnson to cover Julius Erving straight-up on defense. While Magic couldn't match the Doctor's athleticism, the move did keep Erving from the offensive boards.

In Game 2 that wasn't quite enough, as Erving brought the Sixers back with 24 points and 16 rebounds, mostly defensive.

Thank you for the follow up - this is the reason I enjoy your posts = great info. As you can probably guess Magic and Bird are my two favorite players and I always thought (with the exception of both cities residents) the hostility toward the "other guy" was strange. Another reason I am biased toward Bird in the 82-83 season was the head to head reg season games of LA vs Boston, Bird had 21-13-8 to Magics 14-9-10 and in the 2nd game Bird had 32-17-9 to Magic's 20-13-10. But that is just my opinion - respect to you and your info = love it.

[LAZERUSS]

Excellent post!!! I will have to see what I can find on you tube of this series. I never was aware of a 52 point run without a jumpshot invovled = incredible. I got my info from wikipedia on Magic being assigned to defend Dr J in game 2.
In this game, Laker coach Pat Riley took a different defensive approach, assigning Magic Johnson to cover Julius Erving straight-up on defense. While Magic couldn't match the Doctor's athleticism, the move did keep Erving from the offensive boards.

In Game 2 that wasn't quite enough, as Erving brought the Sixers back with 24 points and 16 rebounds, mostly defensive.

Thank you for the follow up - this is the reason I enjoy your posts = great info. As you can probably guess Magic and Bird are my two favorite players and I always thought (with the exception of both cities residents) the hostility toward the "other guy" was strange. Another reason I am biased toward Bird in the 82-83 season was the head to head reg season games of LA vs Boston, Bird had 21-13-8 to Magics 14-9-10 and in the 2nd game Bird had 32-17-9 to Magic's 20-13-10. But that is just my opinion - respect to you and your info = love it.

Thanks.

And everyone here is entitled to their opinions. I would think that it almost an even split between the two here, as to who would have been considered greater. And even I do concede that Bird's peak was slightly greater than Magic's peak.

It's too bad that Bird's career was cut short by injuries, and Magic's by HIV.

[Straight_Ballin]

I agree Lebron might be best ever at leading scrubs deep into playoffs.

In historically weak conference tho. 2007 leads cavs to finals and then gets swept. That's what happens when you play in a weak conference.

[Leroy Jetson]

Part of the reason McHale and Parrish are legends is because they had bird passing to them and being the focus of the defense. Bird is the better teammate.

[TheBigVeto]

Magic


LOL nikka pleaze, that clown jumped on a GOAT's coattail and took all the credit.

Magic is overrated.

[LAZERUSS]

LOL nikka pleaze, that clown jumped on a GOAT's coattail and took all the credit.

Magic is overrated.

I tell you what...I'll cut you some slack, since you obviously not only did not see those Magic-led teams, but just as obviously, have not read about them, either.

Now, you get on the internet, and do some actual RESEARCH, and then get back to us all here with your new found knowledge.

I'll be waiting...