Spurs smash bulls record +\-

[toxicxr6]

Spurs set a new record for the highest net rating for a calendar month in history

For December the Spurs had a net rating of +19.3 points/game

Old record was held by the Jordan bulls at +16.3

Massive new record...

[Rocketswin2013]

it's kind of crazy to think one of two GOAT-level teams in SA and GS won't win the title this year.

It's like having the '86 Celtics and '96 Bulls in the same league.

We will probably see the greatest team to never win a title this year.

[plowking]

it's kind of crazy to think one of two GOAT-level teams in SA and GS won't win the title this year.

It's like having the '86 Celtics and '96 Bulls in the same league.

We will probably see the greatest team to never win a title this year.

Even more amazing is how no one is screaming stacked about the Spurs, or anywhere near as upset as they were with the Heat when an all star in his prime, joined the second or third best team in the league.

Bizarre, since this is the reason we were told the Heat got so much hate. Prime players joining great teams already...

[Dr Hawk]

All these while Duncan playing like shit. Overrated

[JohnFreeman]

MY Spurs are winning it all this year

[sd3035]

People are ignoring the Spurs this year, they are about as good as the Warriors

[ProfessorMurder]

Even more amazing is how no one is screaming stacked about the Spurs, or anywhere near as upset as they were with the Heat when an all star in his prime, joined the second or third best team in the league.

Bizarre, since this is the reason we were told the Heat got so much hate. Prime players joining great teams already...
So, Aldridge joining the Spurs who lost in the first round last year, after taking various meetings with teams across the league is akin to brazenly colluding with 2 other all-stars and slapping your home team in the face on national tv?

The Spurs only had one all-star last year, who is almost 40, and is barely putting up numbers this year.

The Spurs all sacrifice and play together, the Heat stacked the deck and were cheap.

[Tycriss]

Best SRS all time !!! :eek:


http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/987732Sanstitre.png

[Young X]

^ Both of their SRS will drop as the season goes on.

They've both had easy schedules so far facing a total of 2 elite teams between them (OKC and Cleveland).

[plowking]

So, Aldridge joining the Spurs who lost in the first round last year, after taking various meetings with teams across the league is akin to brazenly colluding with 2 other all-stars and slapping your home team in the face on national tv?

The Spurs only had one all-star last year, who is almost 40, and is barely putting up numbers this year.

The Spurs all sacrifice and play together, the Heat stacked the deck and were cheap.

The Heat played some of the best team ball ever, which was obvious by the fact they averaged the most passes in the league in 3 of the 4 years they were together.

The Spurs had an all star, the best coach in the league and possibly ever, the DPOY, 3 different finals MVP's on their team, and a cast that has been together for so long and created an incredible chemistry over that time.

Not only did they add Aldridge, they go on to add David West who could have gone anywhere else. Yet, he takes far less money and sacrifices stats.

Colluding? Based on what? Your opinion. Bron met up with a host of teams, as did Wade, and as did Bosh.

I don't even care, since players should be able to go where they want, and they can, it is just funny the double standard with knobs like yourself that harp on about one but not the other. Funny you were the first to respond to that post, since Bron and the Heat probably got under your skin more than anyone else. Even more hilarious is that you aren't a teenager like a lot of the ones it actually does get to. :oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

it's kind of crazy to think one of two GOAT-level teams in SA and GS won't win the title this year.

It's like having the '86 Celtics and '96 Bulls in the same league.

We will probably see the greatest team to never win a title this year.

You're a fckn dumb cnt, m8

[GIF REACTION]

The Heat played some of the best team ball ever, which was obvious by the fact they averaged the most passes in the league in 3 of the 4 years they were together.

The Spurs had an all star, the best coach in the league and possibly ever, the DPOY, 3 different finals MVP's on their team, and a cast that has been together for so long and created an incredible chemistry over that time.

Not only did they add Aldridge, they go on to add David West who could have gone anywhere else. Yet, he takes far less money and sacrifices stats.

Colluding? Based on what? Your opinion. Bron met up with a host of teams, as did Wade, and as did Bosh.

I don't even care, since players should be able to go where they want, and they can, it is just funny the double standard with knobs like yourself that harp on about one but not the other. Funny you were the first to respond to that post, since Bron and the Heat probably got under your skin more than anyone else. Even more hilarious is that you aren't a teenager like a lot of the ones it actually does get to. :oldlol:
:applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

No excuses

[catch24]

it's kind of crazy to think one of two GOAT-level teams in SA and GS won't win the title this year.

It's like having the '86 Celtics and '96 Bulls in the same league.

We will probably see the greatest team to never win a title this year.

Wait, what? How are this years Spurs on the level of the '86 Celtics and/or '96 Bulls? They're not even better than their 2014 counterparts. :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

The Heat played some of the best team ball ever, which was obvious by the fact they averaged the most passes in the league in 3 of the 4 years they were together.

The Spurs had an all star, the best coach in the league and possibly ever, the DPOY, 3 different finals MVP's on their team, and a cast that has been together for so long and created an incredible chemistry over that time.

Not only did they add Aldridge, they go on to add David West who could have gone anywhere else. Yet, he takes far less money and sacrifices stats.

Colluding? Based on what? Your opinion. Bron met up with a host of teams, as did Wade, and as did Bosh.

I don't even care, since players should be able to go where they want, and they can, it is just funny the double standard with knobs like yourself that harp on about one but not the other. Funny you were the first to respond to that post, since Bron and the Heat probably got under your skin more than anyone else. Even more hilarious is that you aren't a teenager like a lot of the ones it actually does get to. :oldlol:
Bringing that Brisbane Heat

[Spurs m8]

Bringing that Brisbane Heat

**** Lynn is a gun

[TaLvsCuaL]

WCF is the real finals

[Spurs m8]

WCF is the real finals

Has been the past couple of seasons, and will be this season too....tbh

[knicksman]

Even more amazing is how no one is screaming stacked about the Spurs, or anywhere near as upset as they were with the Heat when an all star in his prime, joined the second or third best team in the league.

Bizarre, since this is the reason we were told the Heat got so much hate. Prime players joining great teams already...

plowking proving once again why bran stans have the lowest IQ on this board. Theres a difference between the first one to do it and someone who does it just so he couldve a chance against the cheaters.

[plowking]

plowking proving once again why bran stans have the lowest IQ on this board. Theres a difference between the first one to do it and someone who does it just so he couldve a chance against the cheaters.

yo, sup?






Eat a dick bro.

[Duffy Pratt]

it's kind of crazy to think one of two GOAT-level teams in SA and GS won't win the title this year.

It's like having the '86 Celtics and '96 Bulls in the same league.

We will probably see the greatest team to never win a title this year.

73 Celtics with Cowens, Hondo, and JoJo White put up 68 wins and lost in the ECF to a superior Knick team. The Bucks and Lakers were also not too shabby that year.

[Relinquish]

it's kind of crazy to think one of two GOAT-level teams in SA and GS won't win the title this year.

It's like having the '86 Celtics and '96 Bulls in the same league.

We will probably see the greatest team to never win a title this year.

What's crazier is that the Wizards beat them :lol

[Rocketswin2013]

Wait, what? How are this years Spurs on the level of the '86 Celtics and/or '96 Bulls? They're not even better than their 2014 counterparts. :oldlol:
I...don't see how they're not on that level. It's almost pointless to even elaborate on how good they re if you think they're a generic great team that comes around every year. If they're not that, then what else are they?

The 2014 Spurs are overrated. Two really tough series against Opponents who shouldn't have been tough for them and just blasting through bad defenses.

Your opinion on 2014 SA has to be based on the playoffs, no? Because the things I just mentioned happened in the playoffs.

This Spurs team is blowing teams out by 20 each game in record breaking fashion for long stretches and they don't get ATG respect. :oldlol:

[dhsilv]

Even more amazing is how no one is screaming stacked about the Spurs, or anywhere near as upset as they were with the Heat when an all star in his prime, joined the second or third best team in the league.

Bizarre, since this is the reason we were told the Heat got so much hate. Prime players joining great teams already...

Well the spurs did just sign ONE guy in free agency....unless you're counging west as part of them being stacked.

Everyone else was drafted or traded for who'd you consider a star level guy.

[dhsilv]

All these while Duncan playing like shit. Overrated

How is Duncan playing like shit? Please don't tell me you think PPG is meaningful. Duncan by any measure we have is having at worst a boarder line allstar year and 2nd team defensive team season. That's the low end and mostly due to him not playing major minutes (as he clearly doesn't have to).

[dhsilv]

Wait, what? How are this years Spurs on the level of the '86 Celtics and/or '96 Bulls? They're not even better than their 2014 counterparts. :oldlol:

Point differential and SRS would have them up there. Assuming warriors can do 72-0 to be the bulls, the spurs are undefeated at home to match the celtics. Its' fun to talk about even if it's comically early to say such things.

[dhsilv]

Has been the past couple of seasons, and will be this season too....tbh

Umm...the heat were in it 2 years ago and won it 3 years ago....and the rockets were in the western conference finals last year...

[Mr Feeny]

So, Aldridge joining the Spurs who lost in the first round last year, after taking various meetings with teams across the league is akin to brazenly colluding with 2 other all-stars and slapping your home team in the face on national tv?

The Spurs only had one all-star last year, who is almost 40, and is barely putting up numbers this year.

The Spurs all sacrifice and play together, the Heat stacked the deck and were cheap.

And Lebron sacrificed money to play for a team that hadn't left the first round in ages. And then promptly took them to 4 straight finals as lead dog, doing more in 4 years than Kobe did in 20 years of basketball.

[Harison]

I marvel at the work Pop is doing, man is genius :applause:

[Dr Hawk]

How is Duncan playing like shit? Please don't tell me you think PPG is meaningful. Duncan by any measure we have is having at worst a boarder line allstar year and 2nd team defensive team season. That's the low end and mostly due to him not playing major minutes (as he clearly doesn't have to).

At least border line allstar? A guy averaging 8/8/3 on 26.2 minutes per night?

How glorified is this guy???

[Spurs m8]

He's playing his role and doing it well, Spurs are managing it perfect.
What would you prefer? Him trying to be 25 again like Kobe?

[Dr Hawk]

He's playing his role and doing it well, Spurs are managing it perfect.
What would you prefer? Him trying to be 25 again like Kobe?

Yeah, he is doing his role for his team, which is fine, but he is nowhere near borderline all-star caliber.

[Springsteen]

:hammertime:

[toxicxr6]

Yeah, he is doing his role for his team, which is fine, but he is nowhere near borderline all-star caliber.

Last year he was all NBA again..
This year he is taking a much lesser role (which will increase in playoffs as it always does)

He has the best defensive rating of any player in the league..he is very capable of being an all star when he needs to be.. But his defensive is still at an absolutely elite level..

[Spurs m8]

Guys, Kobe is smashing the All Star votes.

How you play literally does not mean shit lol

[Harison]

He has the best defensive rating of any player in the league..he is very capable of being an all star when he needs to be.. But his defensive is still at an absolutely elite level..
Timmy is great but he is not even the best defensive player on his own team, what to speak of NBA. He is solid but slow for many years now, its what age does to players.

[dhsilv]

And Lebron sacrificed money to play for a team that hadn't left the first round in ages. And then promptly took them to 4 straight finals as lead dog, doing more in 4 years than Kobe did in 20 years of basketball.

He got a massive pay raise going to miami, he took a HAIR less than the true max, unless you're calling the not getting a 5th year on a deal he signed with multiple outs a loss of money (it isn't).

And miami lost 3 years in a row in the first round. How is that "ages"?

[dhsilv]

At least border line allstar? A guy averaging 8/8/3 on 26.2 minutes per night?

How glorified is this guy???

I clearly pointed out the minutes issue which is why he is unlikely to make it (all be it Kobe is going so....apparently you only have to be in the top 400 in the league to be one this year).

Now i will admit, I hadn't noticed the PER drop to 17, least time I looked he was around 19 if not closer to 20. 17 is still a well above average player. However he is 9th in RPM and 23rd in WINS (espn's minute adjusted RPM).

So if you care about making his team better, yes he's a boarder line allstar. If you care about box score stats, perhaps not. You can't honestly watch a spurs play and not think they're significantly better defensively with Duncan on the court.

[dhsilv]

Timmy is great but he is not even the best defensive player on his own team, what to speak of NBA. He is solid but slow for many years now, its what age does to players.

I'm so sick of wings for the spurs always getting credit defensively for Duncan's work. First it was bowen now it's kawhi....both were great defenders, but so much of what they do is because of Duncan.

[GIF REACTION]

He got a massive pay raise going to miami, he took a HAIR less than the true max, unless you're calling the not getting a 5th year on a deal he signed with multiple outs a loss of money (it isn't).

And miami lost 3 years in a row in the first round. How is that "ages"?
Correct me If I am wrong, but I thought Cleveland were offering him more money to stay

[dhsilv]

Correct me If I am wrong, but I thought Cleveland were offering him more money to stay

Well, yes and no.

The cavs deal was a year longer (which as we know didn't matter to lebron) so in total over the 4 years it was 7 million dollars less.

However he went to Florida where there is no state income tax, which roughly saved him 25 million in taxes (likely increased the cost of his home and likely he pays a LOT in taxes on that, but I have a feeling he wanted a house in miami anyway and I doubt he'd sold it since).

Edit

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/07/09/did-saving-25-million-taxes-fuel-lebron-james-miami-heat-pick/

This is the article i glanced at. Looks like they did a comp with NY which I'm pretty sure has higher taxes than Cleveland (though who knows.....cleveland is a waste land for a reason). But bottom line is Lebron didn't really lose any money with the deal.

[JohnFreeman]

Correct me If I am wrong, but I thought Cleveland were offering him more money to stay
Was just about to say this

[JohnFreeman]

Well, yes and no.

The cavs deal was a year longer (which as we know didn't matter to lebron) so in total over the 4 years it was 7 million dollars less.

However he went to Florida where there is no state income tax, which roughly saved him 25 million in taxes (likely increased the cost of his home and likely he pays a LOT in taxes on that, but I have a feeling he wanted a house in miami anyway and I doubt he'd sold it since).
He actually sold his Miami mansion last year

[GIF REACTION]

Meh it's all a null point really because Lebron was always making much much more on endorsements

Him moving to Miami was always about championship aspirations... Probably a stronger variable which will get him more money anyways.

I always think it's best for a star player to find the scenario with the most success... That's one way to increase intrinsic value, get the endorsement deals and get that exponential cash flow

[dhsilv]

Meh it's all a null point really because Lebron was always making much much more on endorsements

Him moving to Miami was always about championship aspirations... Probably a stronger variable which will get him more money anyways.

I always think it's best for a star player to find the scenario with the most success... That's one way to increase intrinsic value, get the endorsement deals and get that exponential cash flow

All of those deals are better if you're in Miami here you get taxed less on them.

Though posted above, looks like he did sell the mansion so perhaps james didn't like the property taxes. The guy is as much about in networth as he is about basketball. I expect Lebron to be an NBA owner in 10-20 years.

Edit.

I do however agree that it likely wasn't driven by short term salary, but since someone posted implying he was being selfless or something...it wasn't posted as a random factoid I'm sure, I just wanted to add clarity. This is a lot like Duncan's one BIG contract where he left a couple millions on the table. Yeah it does help with cap stuff, but lets not act like it was a massive loss to either player. Now duncan's last couple of deals were pretty big money back to the spurs deals. But he was getting HUGE credit for leaving I want to say less than Lebron left (though salaries were different back then).

[JohnFreeman]

Well his NBA salary is second to his endorsement money

[Harison]

I'm so sick of wings for the spurs always getting credit defensively for Duncan's work. First it was bowen now it's kawhi....both were great defenders, but so much of what they do is because of Duncan.
You dont even see the irony, its his fans like you who give no credit to the Duncan's teammates. Even old and wash up Timmy gets all the credit in the eyes of Duncan vampires :lol Like another TD fan was saying Pop is a creation of Duncan, and is useless without him.

Give the credit where its due. Timmy is all time great, Top10, so he is respected plenty by everyone. But lets not ignore he always had good to great teams, with arguably GOAT coach, no less. Even now he is solid, but its been years since he was the best player on Spurs, and Kiwi is better now both offensively and defensively, every rational fan can see that. Cant you?

[Spurs m8]

^ Truth

[Dr Hawk]

You dont even see the irony, its his fans like you who give no credit to the Duncan's teammates. Even old and wash up Timmy gets all the credit in the eyes of Duncan vampires :lol Like another TD fan was saying Pop is a creation of Duncan, and is useless without him.

Give the credit where its due. Timmy is all time great, Top10, so he is respected plenty by everyone. But lets not ignore he always had good to great teams, with arguably GOAT coach, no less. Even now he is solid, but its been years since he was the best player on Spurs, and Kiwi is better now both offensively and defensively, every rational fan can see that. Cant you?

This

[stalkerforlife]

^ Truth

Bring it...BRING IT.

[sportjames23]

You dont even see the irony, its his fans like you who give no credit to the Duncan's teammates. Even old and wash up Timmy gets all the credit in the eyes of Duncan vampires :lol Like another TD fan was saying Pop is a creation of Duncan, and is useless without him.

Give the credit where its due. Timmy is all time great, Top10, so he is respected plenty by everyone. But lets not ignore he always had good to great teams, with arguably GOAT coach, no less. Even now he is solid, but its been years since he was the best player on Spurs, and Kiwi is better now both offensively and defensively, every rational fan can see that. Cant you?


Well, Pop's record w/o Duncan kinda speaks for itself. I'll bet when Duncan retires, Pop will, too. Don't see him coaching the Spurs after that, nor any other team.

[dhsilv]

You dont even see the irony, its his fans like you who give no credit to the Duncan's teammates. Even old and wash up Timmy gets all the credit in the eyes of Duncan vampires :lol Like another TD fan was saying Pop is a creation of Duncan, and is useless without him.

Give the credit where its due. Timmy is all time great, Top10, so he is respected plenty by everyone. But lets not ignore he always had good to great teams, with arguably GOAT coach, no less. Even now he is solid, but its been years since he was the best player on Spurs, and Kiwi is better now both offensively and defensively, every rational fan can see that. Cant you?

Years since he was their best player? He was their best and most consistent player LAST YEAR.

The issue that you're missing is that when I say that, I'm not saying he was miles better. He wasn't. Kawahi when he was healthy was better last year, however I"m first and foremost annoyed dray didn't get the defensive player of the year, and second that it went to a guy who just didn't deserve it. Duncan is the anchor of their low post defense. He still is. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

Stop looking at just the box scores and watch the games. Basketball is more than just the very limited box score data.

And I give PLENTY of credit to Duncan's teammates. I'm not 3ball or some idiot who thinks attacking teammates increases the value of others. However I do take issue with wings getting credit for the big guy's low block play and rim protection. I'm not sure there's ever been a wing who actually shoudl have gotten defensive player of the year.

[La Frescobaldi]

Years since he was their best player? He was their best and most consistent player LAST YEAR.

The issue that you're missing is that when I say that, I'm not saying he was miles better. He wasn't. Kawahi when he was healthy was better last year, however I"m first and foremost annoyed dray didn't get the defensive player of the year, and second that it went to a guy who just didn't deserve it. Duncan is the anchor of their low post defense. He still is. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

Stop looking at just the box scores and watch the games. Basketball is more than just the very limited box score data.

And I give PLENTY of credit to Duncan's teammates. I'm not 3ball or some idiot who thinks attacking teammates increases the value of others. However I do take issue with wings getting credit for the big guy's low block play and rim protection. I'm not sure there's ever been a wing who actually shoudl have gotten defensive player of the year.

https://img1.etsystatic.com/048/0/6747602/il_214x170.702984999_kt2g.jpg


3ball swings bigtime.

[DMAVS41]

You dont even see the irony, its his fans like you who give no credit to the Duncan's teammates. Even old and wash up Timmy gets all the credit in the eyes of Duncan vampires :lol Like another TD fan was saying Pop is a creation of Duncan, and is useless without him.

Give the credit where its due. Timmy is all time great, Top10, so he is respected plenty by everyone. But lets not ignore he always had good to great teams, with arguably GOAT coach, no less. Even now he is solid, but its been years since he was the best player on Spurs, and Kiwi is better now both offensively and defensively, every rational fan can see that. Cant you?

I agree with most of this, but years since he was their best player?

Duncan was clearly their best player 2013 and has as good of an argument as anyone as their best overall player in 2014.

Last year he wasn't though...Leonard was better than him.

[DMAVS41]

Years since he was their best player? He was their best and most consistent player LAST YEAR.

The issue that you're missing is that when I say that, I'm not saying he was miles better. He wasn't. Kawahi when he was healthy was better last year, however I"m first and foremost annoyed dray didn't get the defensive player of the year, and second that it went to a guy who just didn't deserve it. Duncan is the anchor of their low post defense. He still is. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

Stop looking at just the box scores and watch the games. Basketball is more than just the very limited box score data.

And I give PLENTY of credit to Duncan's teammates. I'm not 3ball or some idiot who thinks attacking teammates increases the value of others. However I do take issue with wings getting credit for the big guy's low block play and rim protection. I'm not sure there's ever been a wing who actually shoudl have gotten defensive player of the year.


Leonard was better than Duncan last year...

[kamil]

Even more amazing is how no one is screaming stacked about the Spurs, or anywhere near as upset as they were with the Heat when an all star in his prime, joined the second or third best team in the league.

Bizarre, since this is the reason we were told the Heat got so much hate. Prime players joining great teams already...

Are you delusional?

[wordsRweapons]

Stop looking at just the box scores and watch the games. Basketball is more than just the very limited box score data.


and you stop looking at advanced stats and actually watch the games, he's not an elite defender by any means

[sd3035]

Kawhi is taking over the league. Curry better hurry up and get his while he can

[tpols]

I agree with most of this, but years since he was their best player?

Duncan was clearly their best player 2013 and has as good of an argument as anyone as their best overall player in 2014.

Last year he wasn't though...Leonard was better than him.

there should be a clear distinction made between "best player on a team" though because there could be huge differences for the same label.. like are we talking 04 Chauncey Billups/Ben Wallace "best player" or 09 Lebron level? Because Duncan's been the former, at best, for a very long time.


Over the past decade Timmy's been to 3 Finals and won 2 rings.. and he has been outvoted for both MVP shares and FMVPs all the while. A player by any other name would be getting shat on for it.. Duncan gets a strong pass though

[sd3035]

there should be a clear distinction made between "best player on a team" though because there could be huge differences for the same label.. like are we talking 04 Chauncey Billups/Ben Wallace "best player" or 09 Lebron level? Because Duncan's been the former, at best, for a very long time.


Over the past decade Timmy's been to 3 Finals and won 2 rings.. and he has been outvoted for both MVP shares and FMVPs all the while. A player by any other name would be getting shat on for it.. Duncan gets a strong pass though

I think it's because big Timmy is so fundamental and never talks shit

[DMAVS41]

there should be a clear distinction made between "best player on a team" though because there could be huge differences for the same label.. like are we talking 04 Chauncey Billups/Ben Wallace "best player" or 09 Lebron level? Because Duncan's been the former, at best, for a very long time.


Over the past decade Timmy's been to 3 Finals and won 2 rings.. and he has been outvoted for both MVP shares and FMVPs all the while. A player by any other name would be getting shat on for it.. Duncan gets a strong pass though

Duncan was an elite player in 13 though...

"shat on"? I don't follow....nobody is claiming he's on the tier of Lebron or Curry or Durant or something....

why would duncan being so good...this late in his career...somehow be a negative because he isn't a top 5 player in the league?

his help has been absurdly good since 12....i don't think anyone can deny that...but that doesn't somehow make him a worse player

[tpols]

Duncan was an elite player in 13 though...

"shat on"? I don't follow....nobody is claiming he's on the tier of Lebron or Curry or Durant or something....

why would duncan being so...this late in his career...somehow be a negative because he isn't a top 5 player in the league?

I guess it depends on how you define elite.. the spurs have had multiple elite players on their team for a while now, so who gets "best player" title? Is it going to be parker? kawhi? Aldridge?


There's a strong case Duncan wasn't even the best player on his team in 2013 though.. For instance, Parker finished ahead of him in MVP shares, and was the catalyst to the Spurs new look super offense in the playoffs. Only when Parker got hurt in the Finals did TD really make his case, stepping up towards the end of that series.

But we also know (and saw) that Parker had to dribble create against one of the best perimeter defenses ever, as pretty much the sole creator of the team, while Duncan got to face a frontline that gave up a shaq like stat line to Roy Hibbert in the series prior. Just seems like a lot of omitting of context and hindsight bias.. people only remembering the end and not the whole thing.

[DMAVS41]

I guess it depends on how you define elite.. the spurs have had multiple elite players on their team for a while now, so who gets "best player" title? Is it going to be parker? kawhi? Aldridge?


There's a strong case Duncan wasn't even the best player on his team in 2013 though.. For instance, Parker finished ahead of him in MVP shares, and was the catalyst to the Spurs new look super offense in the playoffs. Only when Parker got hurt in the Finals did TD really make his case, stepping up towards the end of that series.

But we also know (and saw) that Parker had to dribble create against one of the best perimeter defenses ever, as pretty much the sole creator of the team, while Duncan got to face a frontline that gave up a shaq like stat line to Roy Hibbert in the series prior. Just seems like a lot of omitting of context and hindsight bias.. people only remembering the end and not the whole thing.

I get what you are saying, but there was no case Parker was better than Duncan in 13 imo....certainly not a strong one

The problem is that the casual fan will never rate Duncan properly because his attribute, especially now, is anchoring the defense

[dhsilv]

Leonard was better than Duncan last year...

Not according to pop...

Leonard was their best player if we're JUST talking after the allstar game, which is less than half the year. And if we also ignore their playoff series where Duncan was hands down the best spur.

Just to add some context, Duncan had a higher winshare, VORP, PER. He was lower on the real plus minus stats. Give me Leonard the second half of the year, but sure as heck not over the course of the year.

[dhsilv]

and you stop looking at advanced stats and actually watch the games, he's not an elite defender by any means

Oh dear god....if you don't think he's an elite defender you're freaking blind or you completely don't understand how team defense works. Just wow...

[Rocketswin2013]

25 and 18 point blowout wins after breaking the point differential record last month.

not an atg team.

[DMAVS41]

Not according to pop...

Leonard was their best player if we're JUST talking after the allstar game, which is less than half the year. And if we also ignore their playoff series where Duncan was hands down the best spur.

Just to add some context, Duncan had a higher winshare, VORP, PER. He was lower on the real plus minus stats. Give me Leonard the second half of the year, but sure as heck not over the course of the year.

Leonard is playing the more difficult role on that team....those numbers mean almost nothing in this example because you aren't comparing like with like

You have to learn that those stats just aren't giving any information in a scenario like this

Simply put...Leonard was both a better offensive and defensive player than Duncan...and he took on a larger and tougher role on the team

[rmt]

Leonard is playing the more difficult role on that team....those numbers mean almost nothing in this example because you aren't comparing like with like

You have to learn that those stats just aren't giving any information in a scenario like this

Simply put...Leonard was both a better offensive and defensive player than Duncan...and he took on a larger and tougher role on the team

Gotta agree with dhsilv - Duncan was definitely the best Spur in the playoffs and regular season looks pretty even to me (adjusted for 3 less minutes) and he played over 20% more games than Leonard in the regular season (he's not much help to the team if he's not playing). Duncan and Green lifted the weight while Parker (68 games), Leonard (64) and Splitter (52) sat on the bench injured.

2014-15 Regular Season

Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 3 asst 2 blks 51.2%FG 28.9 mins 113 ORtg 97 DRtg 22.6 PER 9.6 WS 5.5 BPM 4.2 VORP 77 games
Leonard 16.5 pts 7.2 rebs 2.5 asst 2.3 stl 47.9% 31.8 mins 113 ORtg 96 DRtg 22.0 PER 8.6 WS 6.1 BPM 4.1 VORP 64 games

2015 Playoffs

Duncan 17.9 pts 11.1 rebs 3.3 asst 1.3 stl 1.4 blks 58.9%FG 125 ORtg 102 DRtg 24.2 PER 1.2 WS 7.7 BPM 0.6 VORP
Leonard 20.3 pts 7.4 rebs 2.6 asst 1.1 stl 0.6 blks 47.7% 111ORtg 106 DRtg 19.9 PER 0.7 WS 3.5 BPM 0.3 VORP

[eeeeeebro]

but get beat by current bulls durring a time we was struggling at that

[DMAVS41]

Gotta agree with dhsilv - Duncan was definitely the best Spur in the playoffs and regular season looks pretty even to me (adjusted for 3 less minutes) and he played over 20% more games than Leonard in the regular season (he's not much help to the team if he's not playing). Duncan and Green lifted the weight while Parker (68 games), Leonard (64) and Splitter (52) sat on the bench injured.

2014-15 Regular Season

Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 3 asst 2 blks 51.2%FG 28.9 mins 113 ORtg 97 DRtg 22.6 PER 9.6 WS 5.5 BPM 4.2 VORP 77 games
Leonard 16.5 pts 7.2 rebs 2.5 asst 2.3 stl 47.9% 31.8 mins 113 ORtg 96 DRtg 22.0 PER 8.6 WS 6.1 BPM 4.1 VORP 64 games

2015 Playoffs

Duncan 17.9 pts 11.1 rebs 3.3 asst 1.3 stl 1.4 blks 58.9%FG 125 ORtg 102 DRtg 24.2 PER 1.2 WS 7.7 BPM 0.6 VORP
Leonard 20.3 pts 7.4 rebs 2.6 asst 1.1 stl 0.6 blks 47.7% 111ORtg 106 DRtg 19.9 PER 0.7 WS 3.5 BPM 0.3 VORP


You guys have to learn that those stats mean almost nothing when you are comparing players playing such different roles....especially when comparing two players on the same team.

Now, if you want to base your argument off of Leonard being hurt for that stretch and playing fewer games...okay...that is fine, but that isn't relevant to my argument as to who was just the better player

But basing it off PER, WS, BPM, VORP....you can't do that comparing Leonard and Duncan....it makes no sense to do that

You guys really have to learn this....those numbers just aren't meaning much in a direct player comparison between two guys playing greatly different roles...and especially on the same team

And even if we did want to go down the pure numbers road...you've have to have a very nuanced discussion about what is more +EV...Leonard and an average big defensively....or Duncan and an average guard defensively

Things like that...as defensive metrics shade towards big men

[BlazerRed]

Even more amazing is how no one is screaming stacked about the Spurs, or anywhere near as upset as they were with the Heat when an all star in his prime, joined the second or third best team in the league.

Bizarre, since this is the reason we were told the Heat got so much hate. Prime players joining great teams already...
Lamarcus Aldridge is not Lebron, Parker is not Wade and Duncan is not on Bosh's level at this point. They are just a great team. The Heat weren't a great team.. they were just a team stacked with talent.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

A player by any other name would be getting shat on for it.. Duncan gets a strong pass though

Last I heard, Kareem is still vaunted as 1-2 GOAT of all time for being literally a corpse and carried to his last 1-2 titles (much worse than Duncan), but you go along believing that nonsense.

:oldlol:

There's honestly too much bullshit to sift through here, though, tbh. Tons of 'Spurs fans' in this thread who are just undercover Duncan haters. It's ridiculous. These same dudes probably think Kobe > Shaq defensively because 'Kobe's role was harder' or some other such hyperbole. Pop's record without Duncan is like Kobe's FMVP to finals played in record. Let that ****ing sink in.

[rmt]

You guys have to learn that those stats mean almost nothing when you are comparing players playing such different roles....especially when comparing two players on the same team.

Now, if you want to base your argument off of Leonard being hurt for that stretch and playing fewer games...okay...that is fine, but that isn't relevant to my argument as to who was just the better player

But basing it off PER, WS, BPM, VORP....you can't do that comparing Leonard and Duncan....it makes no sense to do that

You guys really have to learn this....those numbers just aren't meaning much in a direct player comparison between two guys playing greatly different roles...and especially on the same team

And even if we did want to go down the pure numbers road...you've have to have a very nuanced discussion about what is more +EV...Leonard and an average big defensively....or Duncan and an average guard defensively

Things like that...as defensive metrics shade towards big men

DMAVS, are you arguing that Leonard was better than Duncan in the playoffs?

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS, are you arguing that Leonard was better than Duncan in the playoffs?

Where do you get that from any of my posts?

[rmt]

Where do you get that from any of my posts?

Just asking if you're including the playoffs so we can eliminate that. So we're only talking about the regular season, right?

As I said earlier, it's very close in the regular season. TD played more than 20% games more than KL and anchored the defense. Leonard can take the chances he takes/go for more steals because TD is behind him.

Pop has some part in this - he should not have Leonard averaging ONLY 31.8 minutes a game at age 23 - KL should be averaging 35 minutes or more especially since he played only 66 games all season. Pop also should have been transitioning the offense from Parker to Leonard earlier than this year. Then LMA's integration would have been easier than switching the offense to both of them at the same time but I can see with Leonard's missing so much of the season delaying Pop integrating KL last year.

There shouldn't even be this discussion between a 39 year old and a 23 year old.

[DMAVS41]

Just asking if you're including the playoffs so we can eliminate that. So we're only talking about the regular season, right?

As I said earlier, it's very close in the regular season. TD played more than 20% games more than KL and anchored the defense. Leonard can take the chances he takes/go for more steals because TD is behind him.

Pop has some part in this - he should not have Leonard averaging ONLY 31.8 minutes a game at age 23 - KL should be averaging 35 minutes or more especially since he played only 66 games all season. Pop also should have been transitioning the offense from Parker to Leonard earlier than this year. Then LMA's integration would have been easier than switching the offense to both of them at the same time but I can see with Leonard's missing so much of the season delaying Pop integrating KL last year.

There shouldn't even be this discussion between a 39 year old and a 23 year old.

I think there is a fundamental difference between how one is playing....and who is the better player.

I just think Leonard had become a "better player" than Duncan by early last year after the injury.

[dhsilv]

Leonard is playing the more difficult role on that team....those numbers mean almost nothing in this example because you aren't comparing like with like

You have to learn that those stats just aren't giving any information in a scenario like this

Simply put...Leonard was both a better offensive and defensive player than Duncan...and he took on a larger and tougher role on the team

He played less minutes. He was not the better defender imo, because Duncan's role was more important on defense.

Now again I added those stats just to add additional context, not as absolutes.

Look if you want to say at his best Leonard was better, I agree. If you want to say after the allstar break but not including playoffs, I agree. If you want to say he was the best player over the course of the season, that just simple is not true. For all the flack Duncan gets for playing less, he played a full 200 more minutes or about 10% more the Leonard did but more importantly imo at least is Duncan played considerably more games. Being ABLE and suited up imo adds value more so than just raw minutes played (we can discuss this further if you like).

As for their roles, the usage rates for both players is very close 23 for leonard and 22.2 for Duncan. Now again as Leonard stepped up his game Duncan reduced his role on the offense, you can lookup the splits but it's what you'd expect.

I suppose either you are defining best differently than me or perhaps we perceive value differently. Without Duncan last year the spurs win less games than without Leonard which to me is the simplest and easiest way to address the difference.

Now if we're talking this year, it isn't close. Duncan might be the 4th most important player on the spurs (manu at least everytime I turn it on has been amazing).

[dhsilv]

Gotta agree with dhsilv - Duncan was definitely the best Spur in the playoffs and regular season looks pretty even to me (adjusted for 3 less minutes) and he played over 20% more games than Leonard in the regular season (he's not much help to the team if he's not playing). Duncan and Green lifted the weight while Parker (68 games), Leonard (64) and Splitter (52) sat on the bench injured.

2014-15 Regular Season

Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 3 asst 2 blks 51.2%FG 28.9 mins 113 ORtg 97 DRtg 22.6 PER 9.6 WS 5.5 BPM 4.2 VORP 77 games
Leonard 16.5 pts 7.2 rebs 2.5 asst 2.3 stl 47.9% 31.8 mins 113 ORtg 96 DRtg 22.0 PER 8.6 WS 6.1 BPM 4.1 VORP 64 games

2015 Playoffs

Duncan 17.9 pts 11.1 rebs 3.3 asst 1.3 stl 1.4 blks 58.9%FG 125 ORtg 102 DRtg 24.2 PER 1.2 WS 7.7 BPM 0.6 VORP
Leonard 20.3 pts 7.4 rebs 2.6 asst 1.1 stl 0.6 blks 47.7% 111ORtg 106 DRtg 19.9 PER 0.7 WS 3.5 BPM 0.3 VORP

Not what you were going for but great point about Green. He was exceptional last year. His stats outside of the real plus didn't jump out, but he was deadly shooting to the point teams were scared to leave him at times and he played just outstanding defense. He also knew not to dribble, it's nice when players know their flaws!

Leonard was imo still more valuable due to how well he played post allstar game, but I'd be open to debating green vs leonard for number two last year for the spurs.

[dhsilv]

You guys have to learn that those stats mean almost nothing when you are comparing players playing such different roles....especially when comparing two players on the same team.

Now, if you want to base your argument off of Leonard being hurt for that stretch and playing fewer games...okay...that is fine, but that isn't relevant to my argument as to who was just the better player

But basing it off PER, WS, BPM, VORP....you can't do that comparing Leonard and Duncan....it makes no sense to do that

You guys really have to learn this....those numbers just aren't meaning much in a direct player comparison between two guys playing greatly different roles...and especially on the same team

And even if we did want to go down the pure numbers road...you've have to have a very nuanced discussion about what is more +EV...Leonard and an average big defensively....or Duncan and an average guard defensively

Things like that...as defensive metrics shade towards big men

The problem with reading stuff this late is you have to post like 6 times or multi quote and this board doesn't do that well. Anyway.

1. PER has a slight bias for rebounding that favors big men. I'd guess WS does as well but I've never really noticed it. VORP...maybe as well. And who knows how to factor in synergy with teammates on the box plus minus stuff. So I get your point. I only and i mean ONLY brought those stats up, after i made a point, and simply wanted to add additional information (thus it was posted after an edit statement). I did not base my argument nor my opinion on those stats. The stats also happen to agree with my general feelings on average which is why I added them. They were like me upgrading you from a small fry to a medium one, you really wanted the burger and that is not based on those stats.

2. Consistency matters. I can't stress this enough but this is the biggest flaw that Duncan has had with teammates and why I will consistently say he's the best spur even when others have higher highs. Leonard was inconsistent last year and that hurt the team in a lot of ways that box scores and real plus minus stats can't factor in. Duncan was as always in cruise control doing exactly what you asked of him and playing at an allstar level. For nearly half the season (when he played) leonard was wildly inconsistent. It wasn't until the end of the year, about half his games, that he really took on a much more important and favorable role and then what did he do in the playoffs? (wow I just checked, I had NO idea he scored 20 a game in the playoffs, I watched those games like a hawk). Still the point remains that Duncan was clearly the best player for the spurs in that series.

3. I sometimes pass on coaches comments, but pop seemed pretty honest when he said Duncan was the spurs best and most consistent player last year. I don't think he was pulling a phil.

[OldSchoolBBall]

2015 Playoffs

Duncan 17.9 pts 11.1 rebs 3.3 asst 1.3 stl 1.4 blks 58.9%FG 125 ORtg 102 DRtg 24.2 PER 1.2 WS 7.7 BPM 0.6 VORP.

Wow, didn't realize Duncan had such a great postseason last year. Knew he playeed well - very well at times - but not THAT good. Very impressive for his age.

[plowking]

Lamarcus Aldridge is not Lebron, Parker is not Wade and Duncan is not on Bosh's level at this point. They are just a great team. The Heat weren't a great team.. they were just a team stacked with talent.

How can anyone type "the Heat weren't a great team" and expect to get treated properly.

I guess the Heat leading the league in passes over the course of that 4 year period means nothing. Clearly moving the ball around like a team doesn't make them a good team. :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

How can anyone type "the Heat weren't a great team" and expect to get treated properly.

I guess the Heat leading the league in passes over the course of that 4 year period means nothing. Clearly moving the ball around like a team doesn't make them a good team. :oldlol:
Plus that Heat team probably played some of the best defense for a small team

[dhsilv]

Just asking if you're including the playoffs so we can eliminate that. So we're only talking about the regular season, right?

As I said earlier, it's very close in the regular season. TD played more than 20% games more than KL and anchored the defense. Leonard can take the chances he takes/go for more steals because TD is behind him.

Pop has some part in this - he should not have Leonard averaging ONLY 31.8 minutes a game at age 23 - KL should be averaging 35 minutes or more especially since he played only 66 games all season. Pop also should have been transitioning the offense from Parker to Leonard earlier than this year. Then LMA's integration would have been easier than switching the offense to both of them at the same time but I can see with Leonard's missing so much of the season delaying Pop integrating KL last year.

There shouldn't even be this discussion between a 39 year old and a 23 year old.

you don't think pop was in part trying to get the guy healthy? He was NOT healthy at times last year....

[DMAVS41]

The problem with reading stuff this late is you have to post like 6 times or multi quote and this board doesn't do that well. Anyway.

1. PER has a slight bias for rebounding that favors big men. I'd guess WS does as well but I've never really noticed it. VORP...maybe as well. And who knows how to factor in synergy with teammates on the box plus minus stuff. So I get your point. I only and i mean ONLY brought those stats up, after i made a point, and simply wanted to add additional information (thus it was posted after an edit statement). I did not base my argument nor my opinion on those stats. The stats also happen to agree with my general feelings on average which is why I added them. They were like me upgrading you from a small fry to a medium one, you really wanted the burger and that is not based on those stats.

2. Consistency matters. I can't stress this enough but this is the biggest flaw that Duncan has had with teammates and why I will consistently say he's the best spur even when others have higher highs. Leonard was inconsistent last year and that hurt the team in a lot of ways that box scores and real plus minus stats can't factor in. Duncan was as always in cruise control doing exactly what you asked of him and playing at an allstar level. For nearly half the season (when he played) leonard was wildly inconsistent. It wasn't until the end of the year, about half his games, that he really took on a much more important and favorable role and then what did he do in the playoffs? (wow I just checked, I had NO idea he scored 20 a game in the playoffs, I watched those games like a hawk). Still the point remains that Duncan was clearly the best player for the spurs in that series.

3. I sometimes pass on coaches comments, but pop seemed pretty honest when he said Duncan was the spurs best and most consistent player last year. I don't think he was pulling a phil.

Like I said...in my opinion, there is a difference between how well one is playing...vs how good of a player said player actually is.

In a vacuum....Leonard was/is a better player than Duncan. And to me, that was evident for the first time last year and has continued this year.

Duncan plays a very specific role perfectly suited for his skill set and is not asked to do anything of not on offense. Leonard was/is asked to do much much more overall.

Again, if you want to argue about the injury Leonard suffered last year and somehow by default that gives it to Duncan...I think we are talking across points and that is more about who had a better year than who was the better player.

As for the stats, they are fine...I like most of those metrics. I just don't like them much in this case as the two players played much different roles. Danny Green last year grades out on most advanced metrics very well...better than some clearly better players on other teams probably. But it's silly to argue that Green is better than another guy when the two play completely different roles on completely different teams.

[dhsilv]

Like I said...in my opinion, there is a difference between how well one is playing...vs how good of a player said player actually is.

In a vacuum....Leonard was/is a better player than Duncan. And to me, that was evident for the first time last year and has continued this year.

Duncan plays a very specific role perfectly suited for his skill set and is not asked to do anything of not on offense. Leonard was/is asked to do much much more overall.

Again, if you want to argue about the injury Leonard suffered last year and somehow by default that gives it to Duncan...I think we are talking across points and that is more about who had a better year than who was the better player.

As for the stats, they are fine...I like most of those metrics. I just don't like them much in this case as the two players played much different roles. Danny Green last year grades out on most advanced metrics very well...better than some clearly better players on other teams probably. But it's silly to argue that Green is better than another guy when the two play completely different roles on completely different teams.

I'm not JUST talking about the minute gap. I'm really REALLY focused here on the inconsistency of Leonard. If you're asked to do more on offense, you better freaking do it well. He was a problem for half the season (that he played in).

Duncan took on more of an offensive role when he was out, and scaled back when he was playing. Very few players are able to to adjust their roles and keep their ego's out, but clearly this is duncan. This again is a value add in his favor.

As I said if we're talking the second half of the year, then I agree. But the year as a whole, Duncan was the most valuable and best player on the spurs. I cite again the playoffs as more proof of when it mattered he was the best player.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not JUST talking about the minute gap. I'm really REALLY focused here on the inconsistency of Leonard. If you're asked to do more on offense, you better freaking do it well. He was a problem for half the season (that he played in).

Duncan took on more of an offensive role when he was out, and scaled back when he was playing. Very few players are able to to adjust their roles and keep their ego's out, but clearly this is duncan. This again is a value add in his favor.

As I said if we're talking the second half of the year, then I agree. But the year as a whole, Duncan was the most valuable and best player on the spurs. I cite again the playoffs as more proof of when it mattered he was the best player.

Again, things like "year as a whole" or "offensive role"....make me think you are talking about who played better....not who was the better player.

I think those things are easy to mix up...Duncan did play better in stretches last year, but Leonard was a better player...just like he is this year...his game evolved over the last couple years and he reached a point in his career where he's just a better basketball player than Duncan last year or this year

If Duncan was asked to do more offensively...his consistency would be terrible compared to Leonard's

The playoffs...the same thing. "played better" does not equal "better player"

[rmt]

Again, things like "year as a whole" or "offensive role"....make me think you are talking about who played better....not who was the better player.

I think those things are easy to mix up...Duncan did play better in stretches last year, but Leonard was a better player...just like he is this year...his game evolved over the last couple years and he reached a point in his career where he's just a better basketball player than Duncan last year or this year

If Duncan was asked to do more offensively...his consistency would be terrible compared to Leonard's

The playoffs...the same thing. "played better" does not equal "better player"

I don't get the bolded part. When it comes to the playoffs, it's all gloves off - no holding back. There's no (at least for Duncan) minutes issue, saving the body, pacing. TD and Leonard averaged the exact same time (35.7 minutes) last playoffs. To me, in the playoffs, "played better" does equal "better player" - everyone is giving his all. Now if Leonard didn't perform up to his potential - well, isn't that what being a star/franchise player is - bringing it every night especially when it counts the most - in the playoffs?

And I like dhsilv's observation about TD - he does give the team whatever it needs, when it needs it. Last year, they needed the offense because of the injuries. This year they don't - so he can just concentrate on defense. And of course, he can't do it for the entire season anymore.

[Rocketswin2013]

They could come close to breaking their own PD record.

22.6 so far :eek: they're sitting starters while doing this.

[Bankaii]

Lamarcus Aldridge is not Lebron, Parker is not Wade and Duncan is not on Bosh's level at this point. They are just a great team. The Heat weren't a great team.. they were just a team stacked with talent.
The dumbest post I've seen all week.

Please tell me you're trolling, and not really this stupid.:facepalm

[dhsilv]

Again, things like "year as a whole" or "offensive role"....make me think you are talking about who played better....not who was the better player.

I think those things are easy to mix up...Duncan did play better in stretches last year, but Leonard was a better player...just like he is this year...his game evolved over the last couple years and he reached a point in his career where he's just a better basketball player than Duncan last year or this year

If Duncan was asked to do more offensively...his consistency would be terrible compared to Leonard's

The playoffs...the same thing. "played better" does not equal "better player"

OK so I asked you before, and I'll ask again. Please define better player.

[DMAVS41]

OK so I asked you before, and I'll ask again. Please define better player.

Just who is better at playing basketball....regardless of circumstances.

If Draymond Green were to have a better series against a team in the playoffs...it wouldn't make him a better player than Curry. He would have "played better"...

[DMAVS41]

I don't get the bolded part. When it comes to the playoffs, it's all gloves off - no holding back. There's no (at least for Duncan) minutes issue, saving the body, pacing. TD and Leonard averaged the exact same time (35.7 minutes) last playoffs. To me, in the playoffs, "played better" does equal "better player" - everyone is giving his all. Now if Leonard didn't perform up to his potential - well, isn't that what being a star/franchise player is - bringing it every night especially when it counts the most - in the playoffs?

And I like dhsilv's observation about TD - he does give the team whatever it needs, when it needs it. Last year, they needed the offense because of the injuries. This year they don't - so he can just concentrate on defense. And of course, he can't do it for the entire season anymore.

Holding Leonard to a "franchise player" standard is a red herring. This isn't grading on a curve....as Duncan isn't held to the standard either.

Let me try it this way. If Tony Parker plays better than Tim Duncan in a playoff series...does that make him a better player? Or did he just happen to play better?

This seems like the answer is rather obvious and I'm not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.