Prime Wade vs Prime T-Mac?

[CJ Mustard]

http://www.landofbasketball.com/nbaplayers/images/dwyane_wade.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/media/nba/2003/0309/photo/a_mcgrady_i.jpg

Give me Mac.

[plowking]

Wade better on offense and defense.

Wade.

[Gabuyaux]

Tmac.

[dhsilv]

Never really saw Tmac with anyone else who could play so it's hard to judge.

My gut says Tmac was a hair better due to his passing and defense, but I'll be honest Tmac games weren't exactly on tv much either during his peak.

[Prime_Shaq]

T-Mac was better offensively because of his range but I'll go with Wade as a two way player.

[GrapeApe]

I'll go with the guy who had a playoff run of 28/6/6/2.2/1.1 on 50% en route to a championship and FMVP.

[WayOfWade]

Is this actually a conversation? Whatever, I'll get to it tomorrow

[JohnFreeman]

Wade, and this really isn't a debate.

[3ball]

If Tmac had Wade's intensity and determination, it would be Tmac.

Tmac had more talent pound for pound... But Wade was a determined player who maximized his talent.

Tmac didn't get UP for games and leave it all on the floor like Wade would.

For example, I remember that one Christmas game with Wade against Kobe, where the media was really hyping the matchup - I knew Wade felt underappreciated compared to the media's fawning over Kobe and would take this opportunity to destroy him... (40 points, 10 assists later.....)

I never got that feeling in any big game or matchup game with Tmac, like "ok, I know Tmac is really hype for this - he's doing to destroy whoever".. I never got that feeling with Tmac, and he always seemed to underwhelm..

That being said, Tmac had a very good turnaround jumpshot on the post and some high level wrinkles in his offensive repertoire.. maybe a more diverse repertoire... It's hard to say, but I still go with Wade.. I trust him more to BRING it.

[SpaceJam]

Wade.

Also first 3ball post I have seen where he isn't mentioning MJ at ALL, what is the world coming to

[FKAri]

Duane Weighed

[Dr Hawk]

Wade in a heartbeat

[derb2k2]

DWADE DA GAWD, that's who!

[Angel Face]

Wade all day, pre-prime wade was an NBA champion! Prime T-Mac couldn't get out of first round?

[CJ Mustard]

Is this actually a conversation? Whatever, I'll get to it tomorrow
We're awaiting your response.

[CJ Mustard]

Wade all day, pre-prime wade was an NBA champion! Prime T-Mac couldn't get out of first round?
Prime Wade didn't get out of the first round either (2009, 2010). Teammates, man

[JohnnySic]

People are picking Wade because his prime is fresher in their memories.

If the 2 peaked at the same time, it would be closer to 50/50 with probably a slight edge to T-Mac.

Prime T-Mac was being argued as > Kobe. Wade never really was.

[JohnMax]

T-Mac = LeBron

They're both scrubs who need a lot of talent to be carried to a championship / out of the 1st round.

[JohnFreeman]

Because Wade was better than Kobe

yeah quote me and attack me, imagine taking NBA as seriously as this fvcking guy topkek

[Legends66NBA7]

T-Mac = LeBron

They're both scrubs who need a lot of talent to be carried to a championship / out of the 1st round.

You topped you're original edit, nice.


T-Mac had Yao Ming and was on 50+ win teams.

Wade usually makes deep playoff runs when he's got a star teammate and wins over 50 games.

[Dragonyeuw]

Wade, and this really isn't a debate.

Its not a debate in the sense that obviously Wade is the superior 2-way talent, and much higher in the GOAT rankings, buts not like they're light years apart in terms of peak play and talent.

[feyki]

T-Mac had only 3's different than Wade in their primes .

Answer is Wade . But T-Mac is my favorite player since i played live 03 and i hate Wade . T-Mac was the man , Wade was the flopper .

[Dragonyeuw]

I do hate the 'what-if' game, but honestly I feel like had we had a few more seasons of 2003 Tmac on a better team, the narrative would have been a little different. I still think he lacked that 'it' factor that could truly lead a team to greatness, but in his prime in all fairness he was playing with scrubs. Give him a legit team, and he should have went further in the playoffs, at least in the east. 2003 Tmac is still one of my favorite seasons from a perimeter player.

[f0und]

Prime Wade didn't get out of the first round either (2009, 2010). Teammates, man

but rookie wade did, and his team that year wasnt that great either. pretty sure prime wade is capable of carrying a bad team further through the playoffs, given as many chances as prime tmac had.

[Cold soul]

Wade was better but T-Mac was great his 03 season was amazing.

[Papaya Petee]

I always hoped that from 2004-2008 the Heat got T-Mac instead of Houston. Imagine a young Wade and not too far off his Prime TMac running the court together. Murder

[Segatti]

Prime Wade is better than any version of Jordan, he was that good.

[Horatio33]

Both are over the hill fat fukks. Wade for me, could lead a team in the playoffs. McGrady was a second option masquerading as a first option.

[WayOfWade]

We're awaiting your response.
You can't seriously tell me that you'd take T-Mac over Dwyane Wade in any situation outside of rebounding, and maybe 3-point shooting.
Prime vs Prime, Wade outdoes McGrady. Both have what I would consider 9 "Prime Years," McGrady with 00'-08' and Wade with 04'-13', but Wade was better both before and after those prime years whereas Mcgrady fell off an absolute cliff once he got older. Wade (surprisingly) has the edge here with the longevity.
Scoring, Yeah they both were dynamite scorers in their day, and I wouldn't really blame you for saying McGrady is a better scorer, but Wade is having his career worst season shooting right now (46.2%) whereas McGrady's best is only 45.7%. And mind you Wade has had multiple seasons shooting 50% or better, and is shooting better now at age 34 than McGrady ever could, not to mention McGrady at 34 isn't even balling anymore (he lasted until he was 32). I don't really need to bring up career PPG, Wade kills him.
McGrady is the better rebounder, however slight that margin may be (.8 rpg). Wade is obviously the better passer, both in career high apg and in career apg, so Wade is in general the better playmaker.
Defense, I'll stay silent here, I'm really not well versed on T-Mac's defense, someone else can post on that.
The career accolades speak for themselves, no need to post those here.

*edit: I didn't really follow the prime thing all that well, it's hard to listen to a lecture and post here at the same time

[SouBeachTalents]

Both are over the hill fat fukks. Wade for me, could lead a team in the playoffs. McGrady was a second option masquerading as a first option.

Hence "prime" in the title you uneducated buffoon

[greatest-ever]

Tmac has one season comparable to what Wade did for 4 seasons, so certainly Wade.

[bizil]

Its not a debate in the sense that obviously Wade is the superior 2-way talent, and much higher in the GOAT rankings, buts not like they're light years apart in terms of peak play and talent.

Well said! Peak wise, my top 5 SG's of all time are:

MJ
Kobe
Wade
T Mac
West

The main difference between peak Wade and peak Mac is the defensive side of the court. For that reason, I will lean slightly to Wade over Mac. MJ, Kobe, Bron, and Wade are on the Mount Rushmore of perimeter players who combined great scoring, great all around ability, and freakish athletic ability the best. T Mac is in the top 6-7 in regards to that package of attributes. But the two way ability part is the key difference between T Mac and that Rushmore group.

[AlphaWolf24]

Probably Wade.....He was simply the better overall player....and had a better career..

But Prime only....wow TMAC was unstoppable ...and could absolutely Dominate offensively.

still probably go with Wade Peak vs Peak.....Wade was the better 2 way player.



funny that Kobe went against Both guys in his career......reminds me so much of MJ vs Nique and Drexler.

I remember Nique absolutely merking Michael Jordan in the 80's...Nique dropping 57 on MJ left and right.....MJ couldn't do anything ....

but MJ ended up the better player with the better career.....same with Kobe vs his era's superstars.

[OnFire]

Wade.

Also first 3ball post I have seen where he isn't mentioning MJ at ALL, what is the world coming to

he messed around and thought he was on a real message board.

[Smook A.]

As much as I like T-Mac, im gonna have to go with Wade. In his prime, Wade was an elite scorer just like McGrady but he did it on a more efficient level. Also, Wade is a better two way player.

[houston]

wade

[D.J.]

Wade. He didn't quite have McGrady's range with three point shooting ability, but he was better at attacking the hoop, getting to the line, and was definitely more efficient. McGrady's defense in Toronto was better than prime Wade's, but Tracy's D really fell off when he joined the Magic because he took a much bigger role on offense.

Another thing to keep in mind is that McGrady's cast in Orlando was significantly worse than Wade in Miami. Outside of '09 and '10, Wade had the better cast. But to be fair to McGrady, if he had a healthy Grant Hill from 2001-2004, we're probably having a different discussion.

[Smoke117]

Besides 3pt shooting, there is nothing that Tmac did better than Wade. Tracy literally only had one great scoring season too...the 2003 one. Besides that he was a high volume scrorer...ie he took a lot of shots to get his points. He was only efficient that season. Taking 20 shots to get 24 points or 21 shots to get 25 points is not being a great scorer. This isn't me talking as a Wade fan either...I've always thought Mcgrady was really overrated as scorer. Kobe who you know I don't like...was also a much better scorer. (would I say that if it was me just saying this as a Wade fan?) For all that people talk about Tmac...he was far behind Wade and Kobe when finishing close to the basket. Look at his percentages 0-3 feet compared to there's...he's behind Wade by a huge margin and Kobe by a decent margin too...the guy just wasn't that great. He was very aesthetically pleasing, but he just was never as good as people want to make him out to be.

I've always liked what a great all around player he was...Scottie Pippen is his all time favorite player and I liked that he just didn't care about scoring. I admire him for his all around abilities, but the guy was overrated when he was good and is overrated even more now because of nostalgia.

Each of them from age 22-30 in percentage between 0-3 feet:

Wade: .651%
Kobe: .629%
Tracy: .576%

Just to further prove my point further...here's Ray Allen 0-3 between 25-30 (they only kept track of percentage this way from 2001 on)

.627%. Ray Allen a guy everyone wants to say was just a jump shooter was a significantly better finisher too...and this was when he was a first option on the Bucks and Sonics. Pure scoring wise I'd put him behind Ray too...Allen just didn't have the selfishness to shoot enough for his skill level.



Tracy only had one season even over 60% and that was the 2002 season. He just wasn't as good as people want to remember him being. He could always shoot...but a guy like him should have been one of the best finishers in the league at the rim...but he wasn't. Like I said...it has nothing to do with being a Wade fan...I've always felt he was extremely overrated as a scorer.

Asking who is better in their prime is a joke because Wade was on a different tier in his prime compared to tmac.

[Jameerthefear]

Besides 3pt shooting, there is nothing that Tmac did better than Wade. Tracy literally only had one great scoring season too...the 2003 one. Besides that he was a high volume scrorer...ie he took a lot of shots to get his points. He was only efficient that season. Taking 20 shots to get 24 points or 21 shots to get 25 points is not being a good scorer. This isn't me talking as a Wade fan either...I've always thought Mcgrady was really overrated as scorer. Kobe who you know I don't like...was also a much better scorer. (would I say that if it was me just saying this as a Wade fan?) For all that people talk about Tmac...he was far behind Wade and Kobe when finishing close to the basket. Look at his percentages 0-3 feet compared to there's...he's behind Wade by a huge margin and Kobe by a decent margin too...the guy just wasn't that great. He was very aesthetically pleasing, but he just was never as good as people want to make him out to be.

I've always liked what a great all around player he was...Scottie Pippen is his all time favorite player and I liked that he just didn't care about scoring. I admire him for his all around abilities, but the guy was overrated when he was good and is overrated even more now because of nostalgia.

Each of them from age 22-30 in percentage between 0-3 feet:

Wade: .651%
Kobe: .629%
Tracy: .576%

He only had one season even over 60% and that was the 2002 season. He just wasn't as good as people want to him remember being. He could always shoot...but a guy like him should have been one of the best finishers in the league at the rim...but he wasn't. Like I said...it has nothing to do with being a Wade fan...I've always felt he was extremely overrated as a scorer.
Well said. Finishing at the rim imo is one of, if not the most important thing for stars

[TAZORAC]

Mcgrady is arguably the best PURE SCORER in history. Wade was the better 2 way play. For all you people with the "championship" comments, guess what? This is a TEAM GAME not indiviual game, championships don't mean anything in terms of a player.

[Straight_Ballin]

If Tmac had Wade's intensity and determination, it would be Tmac.

Tmac had more talent pound for pound... But Wade was a determined player who maximized his talent.

Tmac didn't get UP for games and leave it all on the floor like Wade would.

For example, I remember that one Christmas game with Wade against Kobe, where the media was really hyping the matchup - I knew Wade felt underappreciated compared to the media's fawning over Kobe and would take this opportunity to destroy him... (40 points, 10 assists later.....)

I never got that feeling in any big game or matchup game with Tmac, like "ok, I know Tmac is really hype for this - he's doing to destroy whoever".. I never got that feeling with Tmac, and he always seemed to underwhelm..

That being said, Tmac had a very good turnaround jumpshot on the post and some high level wrinkles in his offensive repertoire.. maybe a more diverse repertoire... It's hard to say, but I still go with Wade.. I trust him more to BRING it.

Kobe said he was gonna drop 50 or some shit on wade and wade came out and destroyed him.

[Smoke117]

Mcgrady is arguably the best PURE SCORER in history. Wade was the better 2 way play. For all you people with the "championship" comments, guess what? This is a TEAM GAME not indiviual game, championships don't mean anything in terms of a player.

...and what logic did you come by this? You say something without even backing it up and think that's some fact? Back it up if you are going to say it. Because what you just said is a ****ing joke. I watched Tmac during his whole prime and my eyes nor his stats conclude he was even close to the best "PURE SCORER in history".

[Straight_Ballin]

Mcgrady is arguably the best PURE SCORER in history. Wade was the better 2 way play. For all you people with the "championship" comments, guess what? This is a TEAM GAME not indiviual game, championships don't mean anything in terms of a player.

If it's such a team game then why was one man able to impact the game so much to the point where he showed the world that he didn't know how to lose in the finals even though he played in 6 finals?!?

Either it's a team game or MJ was just so fvcking good compared to anyone else in the history of the game that he is the exception to the rule. Which one is it?

[Dragonyeuw]

Well said! Peak wise, my top 5 SG's of all time are:

MJ
Kobe
Wade
T Mac
West

The main difference between peak Wade and peak Mac is the defensive side of the court. For that reason, I will lean slightly to Wade over Mac. MJ, Kobe, Bron, and Wade are on the Mount Rushmore of perimeter players who combined great scoring, great all around ability, and freakish athletic ability the best. T Mac is in the top 6-7 in regards to that package of attributes. But the two way ability part is the key difference between T Mac and that Rushmore group.

Agree. I mean when you think about it, Tmac peaked pretty young. He was 21 when he went to Orlando and became an instant offensive force, culminating in the 2003 season. His prime, had he remained healthy, really should have been like 2005 to 2010 give or take. 2003 may have been a 'sign of things to come' which is scary to consider. His injuries robbed him and us of seeing that level again. Had he even remained at his 2003 level and never improved beyond that, and took that to Houston with him, and potentially leading to even a modicum of playoff success, I think he'd be viewed much differently. Him and Yao as a duo are one of the great 'what-ifs' ever IMO.

[ClipperRevival]

Mcgrady is arguably the best PURE SCORER in history. Wade was the better 2 way play. For all you people with the "championship" comments, guess what? This is a TEAM GAME not indiviual game, championships don't mean anything in terms of a player.

:biggums:

[ClipperRevival]

I'm somewhat with Smoke on this one. I think McGrady is a bit overrated. If you are "the man" on a team, there is a right way and wrong way to play the game. You can get yours at the expense of the offense or within the flow of it. Just because you put up 30+ PPG, even at good efficiency, doesn't necessarily mean you are playing optimal, team basketball. I've always viewed McGrady as a great, individual talent who didn't necessarily know how to elevate the level of his teammates while I viewed Wade as a true all-time great who not only knew how to get his but knew how to get his teammates involved and play an optimal type of ball that leads to winning.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'm somewhat with Smoke on this one. I think McGrady is a bit overrated. If you are "the man" on a team, there is a right way and wrong way to play the game. You can get yours at the expense of the offense or within the flow of it. Just because you put up 30+ PPG, even at good efficiency, doesn't necessarily mean you are playing optimal, team basketball. I've always viewed McGrady as a great, individual talent who didn't necessarily know how to elevate the level of his teammates while I viewed Wade as a true all-time great who not only knew how to get his but knew how to get his teammates involved and play an optimal type of ball that leads to winning.

I would say that's fair, though in reality being able to blend your own prodigious talent with lesser teammates is a skill in and of itself, and isn't necessarily natural to everyone. It would have been interesting if Hill and Mcgrady had 5 years together injury-free. That may have done wonders for Tmac in terms of maximizing your team while 'getting yours'. I would guess that Tmac's mentality back in 2003 was 'hey I've giving you 32/6/6. I'm doing my part'.

This was also a criticism levied at MJ early on in his career, especially since by 87 or 88 the conversation was becoming 'who's the best player? MJ, Magic, or Bird?' The knock on early career MJ was that the leading scorer won't win a championship, something he went on to disprove 6 times of course.

[ClipperRevival]

I would say that's fair, though in reality being able to blend your own prodigious talent with lesser teammates is a skill in and of itself, and isn't necessarily natural to everyone. It would have been interesting if Hill and Mcgrady had 5 years together injury-free. That may have done wonders for Tmac in terms of maximizing your team while 'getting yours'. I would guess that Tmac's mentality back in 2003 was 'hey I've giving you 32/6/6. I'm doing my part'.

This was also a criticism levied at MJ early on in his career, especially since by 87 or 88 the conversation was becoming 'who's the best player? MJ, Magic, or Bird?' The knock on early career MJ was that the leading scorer won't win a championship, something he went on to disprove 6 times of course.

Exactly!

Playing the right way and being able to maximize the talents on a team is a learned trait through trial and error. Finding the right balance of taking over offensively and making sure teammates are involved is a balancing act. The true greats can sense what the team needs on almost every possession. Sometimes the team needs alpha dog scoring when the offense is just dead and sometimes the leader needs to feed his teammates to get their energy up. McGrady just didn't have that type of awareness imo.

[Mass Debator]

A 33-34y/o Wade per 36 "is" averaging 24/5/4 and on 53TS%.
A prime McGrady (4th-10th year) was 25/5/6 on 53TS%.

Wade when shooting near three attempts from 3 per game shot above 30% from deep.

McGrady's last 4 all-star years shot 33% on 6 attempts and had a 76FT%.

Anyone who watches Wade could see that if he shot 6 threes (especially in transition), he's going to make 2 of them most of the time...33%. I'm not saying Wade is a comparable shooter overall which he may be, but his shot IQ and patience is definitely a skill force to be reckoned with.

Ultimately, Wade is a better player because he's a more well-rounded player when taking skills, stats, and intangibles into equation. He has the aura of a natural leader that not many has and embraces which constitutes as a winner.

That being said, I'd take McGrady > Wade in a 1v1 contest but pro ball is a team sport that Wade has mastered.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

If it's such a team game then why was one man able to impact the game so much to the point where he showed the world that he didn't know how to lose in the finals even though he played in 6 finals?!?

Either it's a team game or MJ was just so fvcking good compared to anyone else in the history of the game that he is the exception to the rule. Which one is it?

Your boy was one Ray Allen fluke shot away from being matched. Settle down.

:oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Your boy was one Ray Allen fluke shot away from being matched. Settle down.

:oldlol:

Not in Finals MVP's though

[Wade's Rings]

Your boy was one Ray Allen fluke shot away from being matched. Settle down.

:oldlol:

Why do people say this? You don't think if the Heat lost in '13 they don't comeback extra motivated? Why would the Spurs head into the '14 Season even more motivated?

Even if the Spurs won back-to-back Duncan would still only have 4 Finals MVPs to Jordan's 6.

[ClipperRevival]

Your boy was one Ray Allen fluke shot away from being matched. Settle down.

:oldlol:

Not all rings carry the same weight. MJ got his in the most overbearing way imaginable. He actually led the league in scoring all 6 times he won a ring. Not to mention, the GOAT level D he played. No one had to carry such a burden for his teams as "the man". That's why MJ's 6 rings carry such weight. It's not like KAJ where he was "the man" in 2/3 of those rings and played a lesser 2nd or 3rd fiddle role in others.

[SouBeachTalents]

Not all rings carry the same weight. MJ got his in the most overbearing way imaginable. He actually led the league in scoring all 6 times he won a ring. Not to mention, the GOAT level D he played. No one had to carry such a burden for his teams as "the man". That's why MJ's 6 rings carry such weight. It's not like KAJ where he was "the man" in 2/3 of those rings and played a lesser 2nd or 3rd fiddle role in others.

:applause: Only Russell was his teams best player for more rings than Jordan, and even his aren't as indisputable as Jordan's were

[ArbitraryWater]

People are picking Wade because his prime is fresher in their memories.

If the 2 peaked at the same time, it would be closer to 50/50 with probably a slight edge to T-Mac.

Prime T-Mac was being argued as > Kobe. Wade never really was.

You gotta love an already fcked up random line of argumentation that on top is wrong, both ways :oldlol: