LeBrons Heat had a better supporting cast than Curry's Warriors

[warriorfan]

Wade>Draymond
Bosh>Thompson
Chalmers>Livingston
Battier>Iguodala
Allen>Barbosa
Lewis>Speights
Cole>Clark
Jones and Miller > Rush

[IGOTGAME]

think you forgot harrison barnes

[Segatti]

Wade>Draymond

Stop reading here

[warriorfan]

think you forgot harrison barnes

He is overrated anyways. Guy puts up less than 10 points per game and shoots open corner 3'a or dunks in wide open lanes and then plays post defense on a shitty power forward on the other end. This kid is nothing special.

[VengefulAngel]

Cherry picking the comparisons don't prove a point, do it by position and it will paint a picture. Plus, it's asinine to judge a team based solely on an individual by individual basis. You can have 12 very talented players but their game doesn't compliment one another and thus doesn't produce the affect one assumes.

Coaching plays a huge part in this, but the point still remains.

Also just looked and you are totally wrong about most of them.

Let me give an example, Klay vs Wade, Wade is the better individual player and on the Miami Heat he would be far superior piece, however Wade on the Warriors may not be as good of a fit as their offense is predicated on the 3 point shot, which Wade has never developed nor excelled.

( This is coming from a Wade stan)

[warriorfan]

Stop reading here

U watch shitty Japanese cartoons, your input is not valued here.

[warriorfan]

Cherry picking the comparisons don't prove a point, do it by position and it will paint a picture. Plus, it's asinine to judge a team based solely on an individual by individual basis. You can have 12 very talented players but their game doesn't compliment one another and thus doesn't produce the affect one assumes.

Coaching plays a huge part in this, but the point still remains.

Listing them as individuals doesn't paint the picture but it shows what type of paint was used.

LeBron had better paint and more of it yet couldn't create the masterpiece that Leonardo DeCurry was able to.

[ShawkFactory]

Stop reading here
THAT's what made you stop reading?

Dude said Battier > Iguodala.

[VengefulAngel]

Listing them as individuals doesn't paint the picture but it shows what type of paint was used.

LeBron had better paint and more of it yet couldn't create the masterpiece that Leonardo DeCurry was able to.

There is no point having a conversation with you, you are too simple minded. Have you ever had an intelligent discussion with anyone?

I don't think you are capable to be honest.

[SexSymbol]

Wade>Draymond
Bosh>Thompson
Chalmers>Livingston
Battier>Iguodala
Allen>Barbosa
Lewis>Speights
Cole>Clark
Jones and Miller > Rush
Wade>=Klay
Bosh=Draygod
Chalmers>Livingston
Battier<Iguodala
Allen=Barbosa
Lewis<Speights
Cole<Clark
Jones and Miller<Barnes.

[sd3035]

The Otaku guy picked a bad example to "stop reading", Wade's one of the best ever :lol

[warriorfan]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2013.html


Look at the list... Most stacked team of all time.

[sd3035]

Wade>=Klay
Bosh=Draygod
Chalmers>Livingston about =
Battier<Iguodala
Allen=Barbosa I'd take Allen easily
Lewis<Speights anyone is better than Speights
Cole<Clark
Jones and Miller<Barnes.

The rest of your list seems about right

[warriorfan]

The Otaku guy picked a bad example to "stop reading", Wade's one of the best ever :lol

I think he stopped reading because he had to *********e to cartoon porn, not over the content of the post.

[3ball]

Let me know when Curry has a 2nd option that averages 25 ppg in regular season, 26 ppg during a playoff run, and 27 ppg in the Finals... :rolleyes:

/end thead

[tmacattack33]

Wade>Draymond
Bosh>Thompson
Chalmers>Livingston
Battier>Iguodala
Allen>Barbosa
Lewis>Speights
Cole>Clark
Jones and Miller > Rush

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or what, but you failed to even list Barnes and Bogut.

So, you took two guys off Curry's team and are still having a hard time putting together good comparisons....LOL at Battier being better than Igoudala. And even 2012 and up Wade being better than Draymond.

[warriorfan]

Let me know when Curry has a 2nd option that averages 25 ppg in regular season, 26 ppg during a playoff run, and 27 ppg in the Finals... :rolleyes:

/end thead

Damn...

[ArbitraryWater]

Wade>=Klay
Bosh=Draygod
Chalmers>Livingston
Battier<Iguodala
Allen=Barbosa
Lewis<Speights
Cole<Clark
Jones and Miller<Barnes.

loled.. the 2013 and 2014 Wade versions aren't better.

[3ball]

.
Wade's stats during 2011-2014 Playoffs:

20/5/4 on 48%


Let me know when Curry has a 2nd option like that... Wade was far better than Pippen's 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs (2nd three-peat).

Oh, and let me know when Curry has a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option (Bosh)... Lebron cratered Bosh's stats, but Bosh was still a 10-time all-star player that Lebron had ACCESS to..

And Bosh showed his 10-time all-star pedigree by playing WAY out of his comfort zone for Lebron, by becoming a 40% 3-point floor-spreader... He became a 6'10" Steve Kerr for Lebron - way to maximize the talent you have Lebron... :applause: .... 2/6

[Gus Hemmingway]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or what, but you failed to even list Barnes and Bogut.

So, you took two guys off Curry's team and are still having a hard time putting together good comparisons....LOL at Battier being better than Igoudala. And even 2012 and up Wade being better than Draymond.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[VengefulAngel]

loled.. the 2013 and 2014 Wade versions aren't better.

2013 Wade PER of 24.04 (69 games played) TS% of 58, Raw numbers of 21.2/5/5
2014 Wade PER of 22 TS% of 59, raw numbers of 19/5/5
VS

KLAY

This year so far:

2015-2016 Klay PER of 17.30 TS% of 59, raw numbers of 20/2/4

I'll let you decide which one was better.

[warriorfan]

2013 Wade PER of 24.04 (69 games played) TS% of 58, Raw numbers of 21.2/5/5

VS

KLAY

This year so far:

2015-2016 Klay PER of 17.30 TS% of 59, raw numbers of 20/2/4

I'll let you decide which one was better.

Using raw box scores to try to prove that Klay Thompson is better than Dwayne Wade.

Congratulations. You officially dont know shit about basketball.

[Gus Hemmingway]

Using raw box scores to try to prove that Klay Thompson is better than Dwayne Wade.

I lost.


We Know :lol

[VengefulAngel]

Using raw box scores to try to prove that Klay Thompson is better than Dwayne Wade.

Congratulations. You officially dont know shit about basketball.

What an earth are you talking about, can you not read.... I was showing AW that Wade was better than Klay.

You proved my point that you are a retard at the same time also.

Plus it wasn't only the box score it was some advanced statistics, which takes into account USG/TS%/TOV% and other factors.

[3ball]

2013 Wade PER of 24.04 (69 games played) TS% of 58, Raw numbers of 21.2/5/5
2014 Wade PER of 22 TS% of 59, raw numbers of 19/5/5
VS

KLAY

This year so far:

2015-2016 Klay PER of 17.30 TS% of 59, raw numbers of 20/2/4

I'll let you decide which one was better.
As your stats show, Wade destroys Klay.

And let me know when Curry has a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option, or the 2nd GOAT three-point shooter as his 4th option.

[VengefulAngel]

As your stats show, Wade destroys Klay.

And let me know when Curry has a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option, or the 2nd GOAT three-point shooter as his 4th option.

Bosh's advanced stats are worse than Draygod's....

Plus the Warriors as a team are shooting higher than Ray Allen career average....

Use some facts 3ball....

[3ball]

Bosh's advanced stats are worse than Draygod's....

Plus the Warriors as a team are shooting higher than Ray Allen career average....

Use some facts 3ball....
you got me... :facepalm

warriors are ****ing staaaaaaaaaaackeed (sorry warriorsfan)

the heat were too though - they had better top talent at the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options... but the warriors crush from 5-12... and at the 1

btw, Bosh > Draymond EASILY.... but lebron-ball cratered bosh's stats... Let's see if Draymond can make 10 all-star games.
.

[warriorfan]

you got me... :facepalm

warriors are ****ing staaaaaaaaaaackeed (sorry warriorsfan)

the heat were too though - they had better top talent at the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options... but the warriors crush from 5-12... and at the 1

:lol

[VengefulAngel]

you got me... :facepalm

warriors are ****ing staaaaaaaaaaackeed (sorry warriorsfan)

the heat were too though - they had better top talent at the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options... but the warriors crush from 5-12... and at the 1

They are on pace to be the greatest team of all time, don't worry MJ is still the GOAT so don't spam a long rant out.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Why tf would you compare Wade to Dray and Bosh to Klay....Bosh and Dray are 4's, Klay/Wade are 2's.....dumbass.

[warriorfan]

Bosh's advanced stats are worse than Draygod's....

Plus the Warriors as a team are shooting higher than Ray Allen career average....

Use some facts 3ball.....

Apparently you aren't well versed in the effects of LeBron-Ball and how it decreases the statistical output of his teammates. Using the statistics that a player produced while under LeBron-Ball is not an accurate gauge of their true ability.

Otoh, Steph Curry GREATLY increases the statistics of everyone else on the floor with him. It is the polar opposite of LeBron-ball.



You think the Warrior team would be shooting 3's at the same percentage if you substituted LeBron James for Steph Curry?!?!



:yaohappy:

[ArbitraryWater]

2013 Wade PER of 24.04 (69 games played) TS% of 58, Raw numbers of 21.2/5/5
2014 Wade PER of 22 TS% of 59, raw numbers of 19/5/5
VS

KLAY

This year so far:

2015-2016 Klay PER of 17.30 TS% of 59, raw numbers of 20/2/4

I'll let you decide which one was better.

Wade was disgustingly terrible in the playoffs.. Klay last year was underwhelming but even he was better, shockingly.

[3ball]

Use some facts 3ball....


the heat had better top talent at the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options... but the warriors crush from 5-12... and at the 1

btw, Bosh > Draymond EASILY.... but lebron-ball cratered bosh's stats...

Let's see if Draymond can make 10 all-star games... I'm not sure there's ever been a 2nd option that did that, let alone a 3rd option like Bosh was

[warriorfan]

Wade was disgustingly terrible in the playoffs.. Klay last year was underwhelming but even he was better, shockingly.

We have all seen Thompson's stats with Curry off the floor.

Remove Curry from Thompson and add Curry to Wade, then look at the stats.

[Nash]

Yeah thats not the comparison, here is the comparison:


Livingston > Chalmers
Klay < DWade
Barnes > Battier
Draymond = Bosh
Bogut > Andersen

Clark < Cole
Barbosa < Allen
Igoudala > Miller
Speights > Lewis
Rush < Jones
Ezeli > Haslem

[tmacattack33]

Has anyone figured out why the OP left out Bogut and Barnes?

[3ball]

Wade was disgustingly terrible in the playoffs..


Wade's playoff stats 2011-2014:

20/5/4 on 40.8%


So not disgusting, you liar....

Those are better stats than Pippen's 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs... Remember him?.. the guy you overrate like a mf

[warriorfan]

Ah, so Mo Speights is now better than Rashard Lewis

Learn something new everyday I guess

[VengefulAngel]

Apparently you aren't well versed in the effects of LeBron-Ball and how it decreases the statistical output of his teammates. Using the statistics that a player produced while under LeBron-Ball is not an accurate gauge of their true ability.

Otoh, Steph Curry GREATLY increases the statistics of everyone else on the floor with him. It is the polar opposite of LeBron-ball.



You think the Warrior team would be shooting 3's at the same percentage if you substituted LeBron James for Steph Curry?!?!



:yaohappy:

This isn't a Lebron thing, as you move from 1st to 2nd option you tend to have a decreased USG rate and thus put up lower raw numbers, but tend to improve in TS%/TOV%, that why PER is such a good measure of offensive efficiency.

( If you want evidence for this I can provide some statistical research I have done for my undergraduate degree)

Now I have already proven that Lebron's second option was more productive than Curry's, you have to be transitive with your beliefs.

If you are able to demonstrate that this effect doesn't apply to Curry please show me the evidence. I would love to have debate where both of us are using facts, rather than you spew some bullshit and I have to reply.

[feyki]

11-13 Heat ? Yes . 14 Heat ? No .

[warriorfan]

This isn't a Lebron thing, as you move from 1st to 2nd option you tend to have a decreased USG rate and thus put up lower raw numbers, but tend to improve in TS%/TOV%, that why PER is such a good measure of offensive officiency.

( If you want evidence for this I can provide some statistical research I have done for my undergraduate degree)

Now I have already proven that Lebron's second option was more productive than Curry's, you have to be transitive with your beliefs.

If you are able to demonstrate that this affect doesn't apply to Curry please show me the evidence. I would love to have debate where both of us are using facts, rather than you spew some bullshit and I have to reply.

I stopped reading after


that why PER is such a good measure of offensive officiency.

Good luck with your statistical undergraduate degree. You are going to need it if you think PER is a good stat and if you try to spell efficiency with a ****ing "o".

:roll:

[aj1987]

Wade was disgustingly terrible in the playoffs.. Klay last year was underwhelming but even he was better, shockingly.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Wade was injured and still put up 14/5/5/2/1 in the first 3 rounds. Klay averaged ~20/4/3. Wade was significantly better than Klay in the Finals though. Klay was just shit in the Finals.

'14 Wade averaged 19/4/4/2 in the first 3 rounds. Including 20/4/5/2 in the ECF. Dude was just flat out terrible in the Finals though.

[Papaya Petee]

Wade was disgustingly terrible in the playoffs.. Klay last year was underwhelming but even he was better, shockingly.
Wade 2011 playoffs- 25\7\4\2\1
Wade 2011 Finals- 27\7\5\2\1

Wade 2012 playoffs- 23\5\5\2\1
Wade 2012 finals- 23\6\5\2\1

Wade 2013 finals- 20\5\4\2\1
Wade 2014 until finals- 20\5\4\1\1

The first 3 rounds of 2013 and the 2014 Finals were the only time Wade wasn't good. 2013 playoffs because of terrible health, and I don't know why in 2014 finals.

2011 regular season, 2011 playoffs, 2012 regular season, 2012 playoffs and 2013 regular season and finals Wade >>>>> Klay
Shit even 2014 Wade until finals > Klay

[VengefulAngel]

I stopped reading after


Good luck with your statistical undergraduate degree. You are going to need it if you think PER is a good stat and if you try to spell efficiency with a ****ing "o".

:roll:

I edited my post before you responded. It was a typo lol.

Look at my time of edit, It was immediately after, I don't bother proof reading what I type on a basketball forum.

Plus, i'm not longer an undergraduate student, I'm doing my master's.

[warriorfan]

I edited my post before you responded. It was a typo lol.

Look at my time of edit, It was immediately after, I don't bother proof reading what I type on a basketball forum.

Plus, i'm not longer an undergraduate student, I'm doing my master's.

no one gives a shit bro, just go into any field besides basketball or anything that requires you being alpha and you should be fine

[warriorfan]

Klay Thompson Finals stats

15/4/1 40% FG

[Hey Yo]

the heat had better top talent at the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options... but the warriors crush from 5-12... and at the 1

btw, Bosh > Draymond EASILY.... but lebron-ball cratered bosh's stats...

Let's see if Draymond can make 10 all-star games... I'm not sure there's ever been a 2nd option that did that, let alone a 3rd option like Bosh was
Green 2015 All defense first team

Bosh _____________ :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

Wade 2011 playoffs- 25\7\4\2\1
Wade 2011 Finals- 27\7\5\2\1

Wade 2012 playoffs- 23\5\5\2\1
Wade 2012 finals- 23\6\5\2\1

Wade 2013 finals- 20\5\4\2\1
Wade 2014 until finals- 20\5\4\1\1

The first 3 rounds of 2013 and the 2014 Finals were the only time Wade wasn't good. 2013 playoffs because of terrible health, and I don't know why in 2014 finals.

2011 regular season, 2011 playoffs, 2012 regular season, 2012 playoffs and 2013 regular season and finals Wade >>>>> Klay
Shit even 2014 Wade until finals > Klay
Because of the retarded "maintenance program" that he was one. Dude was in terrible shape and was clearly gassed by the Finals.

[VengefulAngel]

no one gives a shit bro, just go into any field besides basketball or anything that requires you being alpha and you should be fine

I live in the UK, so going into to basketball isn't an option, nor would I really want to. I want to work in one of the Big 4 auditing/tax firms in the UK, I wouldn't mind working in a firms M & A department either.

[3ball]

This isn't a Lebron thing, as you move from 1st to 2nd option you tend to have a decreased USG rate and thus put up lower raw numbers, but tend to improve in TS%/TOV%, that why PER is such a good measure of offensive efficiency.


This flies in the face of the facts - it's statistical fact that Lebron turns his teammates from playmakers (higher APG) into play-finishers (lower APG and higher assisted rate).. Obviously, play-finishers have higher efficiency.

And obviously, by reducing teammates playmaking and turning them into play-finishers, Lebron gobbles up their stats (their playmaking) and makes them his own.

Curry doesn't do this - he doesn't turn his teammates from playmakers into playfinishers - he doesn't reduce their APG and increase their assisted rate..

[Papaya Petee]

Because of the retarded "maintenance program" that he was one. Dude was in terrible shape and was clearly gassed by the Finals.
I've been against the maintenance program and now the limit restrictions as much as anyone. It's the most retarded idea. This season is at its all time worst.

Lets play Wade 8 minutes in the first quarter then sit him for 9 in game minutes, which is like 25 regular minutes, then expect him to come right off the bench and run the offense!

Oh the other team is making a run against the Heat in the 4th quarter and nobody is scoring or playmaking? Nah lets wait till the 6 minute mark till the Heat are down 10 and the game is out of reach to bring our best player\scorer\playmaker in the game.

**** Spo

[warriorfan]

Green 2015 All defense first team

Bosh _____________ :confusedshrug:

Draymond Green playoff 3 point shooting when the Warriors won the Chip

26%


Chris Bosh playoff 3 point shooting when the Heat won the chip in 2012

54%


Let's see how LeBron's offense operates when you replace his stretch 5 with over 50% 3 point shooting with someone who is shooting 25%...

[VengefulAngel]

Because of the retarded "maintenance program" that he was one. Dude was in terrible shape and was clearly gassed by the Finals.

I'm pretty sure this is the reason Lebron left. I don't think he would have left if he didn't have to carry the burden of playing without Wade during the regular season and him have a finals performance which was abysmal.

[stalkerforlife]

No offense, OP...but no shit.

The Cavs are more stacked, too.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

OP's gynaecologist has a better supporting cast than his psychologist.

[VengefulAngel]

This flies in the face of the facts - it's statistical fact that Lebron turns his teammates from playmakers (higher APG) into play-finishers (lower APG and higher assisted rate).. Obviously, play-finishers have higher efficiency.

And obviously, by reducing teammates playmaking and turning them into play-finishers, Lebron gobbles up their stats (their playmaking) and makes them his own.

Curry doesn't do this - he doesn't turn his teammates from playmakers into playfinishers - he doesn't reduce their APG and increase their assisted rate..

Provide evidence. This is also one of the effects with playing with another player with a high usage. Compare the AST% of Durant without Russell Westbrook to other years and you will realise this phenomena occurs.

Do this for me, compare Draymond's assist percentage over the last few games without Curry to it with Curry and then we can at least have some evidence whether Curry does improve their playmaking.

^^ Obviously the sample size will be too small to declare anything as a matter of statistical significance but it's better then nothing.

[VengefulAngel]

I've been against the maintenance program and now the limit restrictions as much as anyone. It's the most retarded idea. This season is at its all time worst.

Lets play Wade 8 minutes in the first quarter then sit him for 9 in game minutes, which is like 25 regular minutes, then expect him to come right off the bench and run the offense!

Oh the other team is making a run against the Heat in the 4th quarter and nobody is scoring or playmaking? Nah lets wait till the 6 minute mark till the Heat are down 10 and the game is out of reach to bring our best player\scorer\playmaker in the game.

**** Spo

Great post!

[Hey Yo]

Draymond Green playoff 3 point shooting when the Warriors won the Chip

26%


Chris Bosh playoff 3 point shooting when the Heat won the chip in 2012

54%


Let's see how LeBron's offense operates when you replace his stretch 5 with over 50% 3 point shooting with someone who is shooting 25%...
Green w/19, 3PA

Bosh w/5, 3PA

[warriorfan]

Provide evidence. This is also one of the effects with playing with another player with a high usage. Compare the AST% of Durant without Russell Westbrook to other years and you will realise this phenomena occurs.

Do this for me, compare Draymond's assist percentage over the last few games without Curry to it with Curry and then we can at least have some evidence whether Curry does improve their playmaking.

^^ Obviously the sample size will be too small to declare anything as a matter of statistical significance but it's better then nothing.

Yeah let's try to deduct major conclusions from sample sizes of 3 games...

Dat Masters Program...

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Provide evidence.



.
Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


Source: basketball-reference.com


The ASSISTED RATES aren't shown above, but take 2 minutes and look at Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie and anyone's assisted rate alongside Lebron - it increases significantly (in addition to the aforementioned reduction in assists)...

So again, Lebron turns teammates from playmakers (higher APG and assist %) to play-finishers (higher assisted rate)... It's statistical fact... And obviously, play-finishers have higher efficiency.

Otoh, Curry DOESN'T turn teammates into play-finishers - his off-ball style gives teammates more time with the ball (Draymond), so they are comfortable and can play THEIR GAME.





This is also one of the effects with playing with another play with a high usage. Compare the AST% of Durant without Russell Westbrook to other years and you will realise this phenomena occurs.


We're talking about CURRY and the optimal style of play he employs - we aren't talking about Westbrook and Durant, who play more like Lebron and dominate the ball.

[VengefulAngel]

.
Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


Source: basketball-reference.com


I didn't post the ASSISTED RATES aren't shown above, but take 2 minutes and look at Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie and anyone's assisted rate alongside Lebron - it increases significantly (in addition to the aforementioned reduction in assists)...

So again, Lebron turns teammates from playmakers (higher APG and assist %) to playmakers (higher assisted rate... It's statistical fact.



We're talking about CURRY and the optimal style of play he employs - we aren't talking about Westbrook and Durant, who play more like Lebron and dominate the ball.

Provide evidence that Curry improves Draymond's AST%. I agree that Lebron's teammates experience a decline in their AST%, I believe that the relationship between USG% and AST% is more statistically significant than Lebron's style of play. Although it still is a factor.

Do you think what I'm saying is fair?

Plus we're talking about Curry not MJ and Pippen...

[warriorfan]

Green w/19, 3PA

Bosh w/5, 3PA

You know why Bosh only got five 3 point attempts and knocked down over half of them?

Because he is a knock down shooter and wasn't allowed to get open looks, defenders are forced to run him off the line. Which opens up all sorts of lanes in the paint for easy points for his team mates.

Otoh Draymond gets dared by the other team all day to make (or I should say take) shots. He is literally wide open, no one even tries to contest his shots. His defender just sags off and clogs the paint like he was Rajon Rondo. This does not create any spacing for LeBron to operate.

[LAZERUSS]

Lebron...on a losing team with ZERO talent had 4 FMVP votes.

Curry...on a winning team with FAR more talent.... ZERO votes.

That is all you need to know.

[warriorfan]

Provide evidence that Curry improves Draymond's AST%. I agree that Lebron's teammates experience a decline in their AST%, I believe that the relationship between USG% and AST% is more statistically significant than Lebron's style of play. Although it still is a factor.

Do you think what I'm saying is fair?

Plus we're talking about Curry not MJ and Pippen...

Do you really need numbers to show that Curry raises Draymond Green's assist percentage?

You seriously need to watch 5 minutes of a GSW game and this will become clear as day to you...

[LAZERUSS]

Swap the '15 Finals rosters between Curry and Lebron...and Lebron sweeps Curry.

[VengefulAngel]

Do you really need numbers to show that Curry raises Draymond Green's assist percentage?

You seriously need to watch 5 minutes of a GSW game and this will become clear as day to you...

I value statistics over the eye test, although I agree that it looks like this is the case, but I want to find out what the stat's have to say.

We see what we want to see.

[3ball]

Provide evidence that Curry improves Draymond's AST%. I agree that Lebron's teammates experience a decline in their AST%


I don't have to provide evidence that Draymond's assist percentage increased - all I have to do is show that it didn't DECLINE like all of Lebron's teammates.

Again, Curry lets Draymond play his game - that doesn't mean Curry has to increase Dray's assists - it just means he can't decrease them like Lebron does.





I believe that the relationship between USG% and AST% is more statistically significant than Lebron's style of play.

Do you think what I'm saying is fair?


Not at all because you apparently misunderstand what usage is... USG% measures how many SHOTS a player takes, which has no correlation with how much they PASS.

Btw, I didn't even post the most damning Lebron stats - Lebron abnormally-high time of possession - the top 50 players in time of possession are all point guards, except Lebron and Harden... Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd high time of possession player IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Also, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

[VengefulAngel]

I don't have to provide evidence that Draymond's assist percentage increased - all I have to do is show that it didn't DECLINE like all of Lebron's teammates.

Again, Curry lets Draymond play his game - that doesn't mean Curry has to increase Dray's assists - it just means he can't decrease them like Lebron does.



Not at all because you apparently misunderstand what usage is... USG% measures how many SHOTS a player takes, which has no correlation with how much they PASS.

Btw, I didn't even post the most damning Lebron stats - Lebron abnormally-high time of possession - the top 50 players in time of possession are all point guards, except Lebron and Harden... Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd high time of possession player IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Also, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

What you said in your first post is incorrect then, I don't have any problem with this post in all honesty.

Can't really bothered to debate this any further, we kind of agree, but you believe Lebron is the only factor which determines these stat's which I know is a misinterpretation.

You are right, i don't mean usage per say, I mean POPU ( Percent of possession's used, ( Number of possessions/ all possessions * 100), also number of passes would provide an insight.

USG% can give an indication for player's who have a large number of possessions and who don't play much off- ball for example Lebron.

[warriorfan]

Not at all because you apparently misunderstand what usage is... USG% measures how many SHOTS a player takes, which has no correlation with how much they PASS.

Btw, I didn't even post the most damning Lebron stats - Lebron abnormally-high time of possession - the top 50 players in time of possession are all point guards, except Lebron and Harden... Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd high time of possession player IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Also, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.


This is all very true. I would really like someone to try to refute some of these concepts that have been presented.

[Hey Yo]

You know why Bosh only got five 3 point attempts and knocked down over half of them?

Because he is a knock down shooter and wasn't allowed to get open looks, defenders are forced to run him off the line. Which opens up all sorts of lanes in the paint for easy points for his team mates.

Otoh Draymond gets dared by the other team all day to make (or I should say take) shots. He is literally wide open, no one even tries to contest his shots. His defender just sags off and clogs the paint like he was Rajon Rondo. This does not create any spacing for LeBron to operate.
LOL.......thanks for the laugh, ass clown

just take the L

[warriorfan]

LeBron stans seriously cannot grasp any concept of basketball that doesn't involve a box score. This is getting sad...

[3ball]

What you said in your first post is incorrect then, I don't have any problem with this post in all honesty.


what's incorrect??.. I never said Curry increased anyone's assists - he doesn't DECREASE them, like Lebron does... Curry allows playmakers (draymond) to remain playmakers - he doesn't take that away by reducing teammates' assists.

otoh, lebron significantly reduces the APG of his teammtes while increasing their assisted rate (playmakers into play-finishers)... this is statistical fact...

otoh, Curry simply doesn't do this.. he DOESN'T turn teammates from playmakers into play-finishers - Curry allows playmakers (draymond) to remain playmakers - he doesn't take that away by reducing teammate assists.

you have no leg to stand on.





Can't really bothered to debate this any further


of course you don't want to debate anymore because i provided the exact proof you asked for..

you didn't even know what usage really meant - it measures SHOT attempts, yet you thought it correlated with PASSING.

You simply couldn't have it more wrong.





we kind of agree, but you believe Lebron is the only factor which determines these stat's which I know is a misinterpretation.


We don't agree - Curry DID NOT reduce the apg and assist % of his teammates, while we have a big sample size that shows Lebron did.

Lebron turned ALL his teammates from playmakers (higher APG) into play-finishers (higher assisted rate)...

What other reason could there be for this other than Lebron and his ball-dominant, high time of possession, low-assisted style (three things that are not characteristic of Curry)?

You said there are other factors that could cause this - well.... what are they?
.

[sd3035]

Lebron fanboys taking yet another L :lol

[VengefulAngel]

what's incorrect??.. I never said Curry increased anyone's assists - he doesn't DECREASE them, like Lebron does... Curry allows playmakers (draymond) to remain playmakers - he doesn't take that away by reducing teammates' assists.

otoh, lebron significantly reduces the APG of his teammtes while increasing their assisted rate (playmakers into play-finishers)... this is statistical fact...

otoh, Curry simply doesn't do this.. he DOESN'T turn teammates from playmakers into play-finishers - Curry allows playmakers (draymond) to remain playmakers - he doesn't take that away by reducing teammate assists.

you have no leg to stand on.



of course you don't want to debate anymore because i provided the exact proof you asked for..

you didn't even know what usage really meant - it measures SHOT attempts, yet you thought it correlated with PASSING.

You simply couldn't have it more wrong.



We don't agree - Curry DID NOT reduce the apg and assist % of his teammates, while we have a big sample size that shows Lebron did.

Lebron turned ALL his teammates from playmakers (higher APG) into play-finishers (higher assisted rate)...

What other reason could there be for this other than Lebron and his ball-dominant, high time of possession, low-assisted style (three things that are not characteristic of Curry)?

You said there are other factors that could cause this - well.... what are they?
.

You're going to force to me get into something that you'll never understand.

Regression analysis is a statistical process for estimating the relationships among variables.

We have two variables in this case we want to compare AST% and what happens when we add or subtract a player who uses a large number of possessions ( so it would something like the number of possession's used)

Now we are going to assume that this is a linear regression, if you don't understand wiki it)

http://prntscr.com/9m4wz7

I can be bothered to type this all out, so just look at these lecture notes and educated yourself.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/vetroeger/teaching/po906_week567.pdf

[3ball]

Regression analysis is a statistical process for estimating the relationships among variables.


Let me get this straight - you want me to think you understand regression analysis, when you didn't even understand what usage was - usage measures SHOT attempts, but you thought it correlated with PASSING... :rolleyes:

And now you can't even explain regression in simple terms because you obviously don't have a good grasp of it - I could explain it better than you.

But aside from all that - explain to me how regression analysis is a counter to the fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers by significantly reducing their APG and assist %, while increasing their assisted rate.

And regression analysis can't counter facts like these:





Btw, I didn't even post the most damning Lebron stats - Lebron abnormally-high time of possession - the top 50 players in time of possession are all point guards, except Lebron and Harden... Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd high time of possession player IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Also, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

[3ball]

This is all very true. I would really like someone to try to refute some of these concepts that have been presented.


It'll never happen.. Anyone responding to that post will just quote it and then talk about something completely different.. :rolleyes:

It's a real mouthful of facts - Lebron has abnormally high time of possession and abnormally low assisted rate for a forward, which reduces his teammates' time with the ball and the extent to which they can assist him compared to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted with low time of possession.

[VengefulAngel]

Let me get this straight - you want me to think you understand regression analysis, when you didn't even understand what usage was - usage measures SHOT attempts, but you thought it correlated with PASSING... :rolleyes:

And now you can't even explain regression in simple terms because you obviously don't have a good grasp of it - I could explain it better than you.

But aside from all that - explain to me how regression analysis is a counter to the fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers by significantly reducing their APG and assist %, while increasing their assisted rate.

And regression analysis can't counter facts like these:

No, I just don't want to bother explaining to an imbecile like you, you can spend your whole life arguing on an internet forum but I have better things to do with my time. From your post's I can gauge that you are deeply insecure about something as you are living vicariously through a man you have never met.

Your post's reek of desperation, and half the things you type you know aren't true. Recently you talked about how you've played with NBA players, i'll prove that i've studied statistics at university and you prove that you have indeed done the stuff that you claim.

I know that you'll probably avoid responding or ignore half my post and respond to something irrelevant.

Edited: typos.

[3ball]

No, I just don't want to bother explaining to an imbecile like you, you can spend your whole life arguing on an internet forum but I have better things to do with my time. From your post's I can gauge that you are deeply insecure about something as you are living vicariously through a man you have never met.

Your post's reek of desperation, and half the things you type you know aren't true. Recently you talked about how you've played with NBA players, i'll prove that i've studied statistics at university and you prove that you have indeed done the stuff that you claim.

I know that you'll probably avoid responding or ignore half my post and respond to something irrelevant.

Edited: typos.
there's nothing to respond to in your post.. those are just insults and your insecurities about not understanding usage or regression analysis.

the only way i can prove i played is by revealing who i am... not going to do that... and i don't need proof that you studied stats in college - i believe you - that's a core course at many schools... it was for me at bradley

[Doranku]

Let me know when Curry has a 2nd option that averages 25 ppg in regular season, 26 ppg during a playoff run, and 27 ppg in the Finals... :rolleyes:

/end thead

And then let me know when Curry loses with that second option while getting outscored by a bench player in the finals. :lol

[raprap]

OP never disappoints when it comes to making dumb threads :oldlol:

[sd3035]

3ball having his way with these kids :roll:

[GrapeApe]

Whenever someone uses "player > player" to compare teams, their opinion should be immediately dismissed. Nobody who actually understands the game resorts to that type of ridiculous logic.

[warriorfan]

I didn't even post the most damning Lebron stats - Lebron abnormally-high time of possession - the top 50 players in time of possession are all point guards, except Lebron and Harden... Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd high time of possession player IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Also, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.


Does anyone have anything to add to this?

[theaussieguy]

.
Wade's stats during 2011-2014 Playoffs:

20/5/4 on 48%


Let me know when Curry has a 2nd option like that... Wade was far better than Pippen's 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs (2nd three-peat).

Oh, and let me know when Curry has a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option (Bosh)... Lebron cratered Bosh's stats, but Bosh was still a 10-time all-star player that Lebron had ACCESS to..

And Bosh showed his 10-time all-star pedigree by playing WAY out of his comfort zone for Lebron, by becoming a 40% 3-point floor-spreader... He became a 6'10" Steve Kerr for Lebron - way to maximize the talent you have Lebron... :applause: .... 2/6


DAMMM 3ball just went in dry

[CarlosBoozer]

Dumbest thread ever made, dumb trolls here too.

[SouBeachTalents]

You swap LeBron with Curry on the Heat they don't win a title from '12-'14. I don't think they even beat Boston in '12 or Indy in '13 with Curry in LeBron's place

[Nash]

Lets not forget that Lebron had to guard bigs, PG's and wings. Doesn't matter if its Rose, Tony Parker or David West. He also had to act as main PG while covering for Miami's non existent front court.

He had to do way, way much more than Curry has to do.

Miami was always top heavy but was as a roster nowhere near Golden State and the width they have.

[NBASTATMAN]

Wade>Draymond
Bosh>Thompson
Chalmers>Livingston
Battier>Iguodala
Allen>Barbosa
Lewis>Speights
Cole>Clark
Jones and Miller > Rush


BOSH AND THOMPSON are equal
Chalmers and Livingston are equal
Allen better than Barbosa
Wade better than Draymond but Dray is a top 15 player in the league
I would take Speights over Lewis
Battier is not better than Iguodala "no way"


You forgot about LEE and BOGUT. What made that Heat team beatable was their lack of size... Haslem and Anderson were playing as Centers many nights... That is why they struggled vs Indiana and HIBBERT.. The Warriors didnt have weaknesses at any position...

[Nash]

BOSH AND THOMPSON are equal
Chalmers and Livingston are equal
Allen better than Barbosa
Wade better than Draymond but Dray is a top 15 player in the league
I would take Speights over Lewis
Battier is not better than Iguodala "no way"


You forgot about LEE and BOGUT. What made that Heat team beatable was their lack of size... Haslem and Anderson were playing as Centers many nights... That is why they struggled vs Indiana and HIBBERT.. The Warriors didnt have weaknesses at any position...
Lee, Bogut and Barnes.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Wade > Draymond
Bosh > Thompson
Chalmers > Livingston
Battier < Iguodala
Allen > Barbosa
Lewis < Speights
Cole > Clark
Jones and Miller > Rush

By my tally,

LeBron Heat in favor of 6-2.

[sd3035]

Wade > Draymond
Bosh > Thompson
Chalmers > Livingston
Battier < Iguodala
Allen > Barbosa
Lewis < Speights
Cole > Clark
Jones and Miller > Rush

By my tally,

LeBron Heat in favor of 6-2.

I'd go with Lewis over Speights

7-1

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Wade was disgustingly terrible in the playoffs.. Klay last year was underwhelming but even he was better, shockingly.

This dude has retarded posts in literally every thread he posts in.

:biggums:

[Dro]

Dumbest thread ever made, dumb trolls here too.
This. People agree with whoever whenever it matches their own agenda. Any other thread, everyone would be sh*tting on 3ball and disagreeing with him. But since he's on the Warrior's side in this one because he hates Lebron and loves MJ, the Warrior fans now love 3ball. SMH. Can't you fools see right through this stannery bullshit?

[nba_55]

This. People agree with whoever whenever it matches their own agenda. Any other thread, everyone would be sh*tting on 3ball and disagreeing with him. But since he's on the Warrior's side in this one because he hates Lebron and loves MJ, the Warrior fans now love 3ball. SMH. Can't you fools see right through this stannery bullshit?

This. :applause: :applause:

[riseagainst]

This dude has retarded posts in literally every thread he posts in.

:biggums:

He was disgustingly terrible. Can't believe he only averaged 20-5-4 on 48%FG through the 4 playoff runs he had with Lebron. Terrible help for Lebron.

:oldlol:
:lol
:roll:

[Inferno]

The 2013 Heat were extremely good

[livinglegend]

The 2013 Heat were extremely good

They were when healthy, but that wasn't the case in the playoffs.

[Cali Syndicate]

OP There is nothing warriorsfan about you

[1987_Lakers]

Warriors are better constructed as a team that have less flaws.

Miami always lacked a Center, you can beat them up inside and beat them on the boards. And I don't care what anyone says, Draymond Green takes a dump on Bosh, Bosh never really truly fit with that team, he is better suited for a #2 option, as a #3 option he could disappear at times.

Look at the role players....Bogut, Iggy, Draymond, Barnes, Livingston, Barbosa vs Bosh, Allen, Chalmers, Anderson, Battier, Cole. I don't know about you, but the Warriors have them beat there.

Curry did in fact have a better supporting cast, Wade > Thompson, but everyone else on the roster favors the Warriors, even coaching.

[TommyGriffin]

Chris Bosh is very underrated. Not many players can fill the role that he played.

[tmacattack33]

Wade > Draymond
Bosh > Thompson
Chalmers > Livingston
Battier < Iguodala
Allen > Barbosa
Lewis < Speights
Cole > Clark
Jones and Miller > Rush

By my tally,

LeBron Heat in favor of 6-2.

OP left out Barnes and Bogut though...

This whole thread is hilarious because you guys are arguing about Lebron's whole team vs Curry's team with two key guys missing :roll:

And you still lose.





Also..in listing Miami's best players, the OP himself lists only one big...basically admitting himself that Miami wasn't balanced :roll:

[Bankaii]

Warriorsfan is by far the biggest idiot on this forum.

He leaves out 2 STARTERS on the team he supposedly supports.

The Warriors are one of the most stacked teams in NBA history.

One teammate has the record for most points scored in a quarter. Another leads the NBA in triple doubles and isn't even a guard. Another won FMVP ffs.

The Warriors win partly because of their defense and Curry is surrounded by 4 All Defensive Team worthy players, while clearly being a liability. Just stfu and hold an L.

[Prime_Shaq]

More top heavy, but Warriors have a better structured team overall

[JohnFreeman]

Awful thread.