Where does Steve Nash rank on the all-time PG list?

[D.J.]

In 18 seasons, he averaged 14/9/3 on 49/43/90 which includes four seasons of 50/40/90. In terms of accolades, he has the following:


-2x MVP(and a runner up)
-3x All-NBA 1st team
-2x All-NBA 2nd team
-2x All-NBA 3rd team
-5x assist title
-2x leader in TS%
-1x leader in eFG%

-3rd all-time in assists
-10th all-time in 3PT%
-All-time leader in FT%


Accolades aside, his lack of defense and inability to get to the Finals has been held against him and at least one of his MVPs was questionable at best. Is he top 5? Top 10? Not even top 10?

[TaLvsCuaL]

At least top 15, anyone who says otherwise is racist, has no memory or only remembers his last season.

[Segatti]

8~12

[Proctor]

6-8 range IMO.

[JohnFreeman]

Top 7

Shame he got cucked by Richardson

[Goofsta Knicca]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYRD70F5WwQ

[Nick Young]

not very high.

IMO he is the worst MVP winner ever. It's a joke that he has 2.

[wally_world]

Logo and Oscar are 2s imo, so...

Magic
Stockton
Isiah

are clearly better

Nash is in the next tier with

Payton
Kidd
Frazier
Curry (who should easily eclipse this tier after this season)

so 5-10th

[24-Inch_Chrome]

not very high.

IMO he is the worst MVP winner ever. It's a joke that he has 2.
You're just angry that the media correctly chose not to recognize a 45 win, selfish, one dimensional campaign from Kobe as being MVP worthy.

Top 5 for me.

Magic
Oscar

Isiah

Wide open third tier, the order of which is highly subjective.

[GreatHILL]

Top 7

Shame he got cucked by Richardson


and Nash had an affair with Brittany Richardson while his wife was pregnant :oldlol: so that cucked stuff is nonesense u stupid wigga :oldlol: :oldlol:

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/wennpic/nash-richardson-2012-espy-awards-02.jpg

[plowking]

He is as good a point guard as there has been.

Sure, he wasn't great on defense, but even then, he was averaging something like 1 charge drawn a game while on the Suns. He was always top or second in the league in in while at the Suns. Add that onto the 1 steal he averaged a game and he at least wins you the ball back enough.

What makes Stockton and Kidd better players than Nash? Defense at the PG position is probably the least important. Aside from that, Nash possesses all the qualities that make a PG valuable, more so than both these guys.
Even if you consider them equal as passers, Nash was so much more equipped and dangerous on the offensive end than both these guys. Better shooter than both, and unlike Kidd and Stockton, he could take over a game offensively with his scoring.

He is better than Kidd, and on the same level as Stockton.

[Round Mound]

Logo and Oscar are 2s imo, so...

Magic
Stockton
Isiah

are clearly better

Nash is in the next tier with

Payton
Kidd
Frazier
Curry (who should easily eclipse this tier after this season)

so 5-10th

This

[masonanddixon]

He is as good a point guard as there has been.

Sure, he wasn't great on defense, but even then, he was averaging something like 1 charge drawn a game while on the Suns. He was always top or second in the league in in while at the Suns. Add that onto the 1 steal he averaged a game and he at least wins you the ball back enough.

What makes Stockton and Kidd better players than Nash? Defense at the PG position is probably the least important. Aside from that, Nash possesses all the qualities that make a PG valuable, more so than both these guys.
Even if you consider them equal as passers, Nash was so much more equipped and dangerous on the offensive end than both these guys. Better shooter than both, and unlike Kidd and Stockton, he could take over a game offensively with his scoring.



He is better than Kidd, and on the same level as Stockton.

Stockton was definitely better than Nash but Kidd vs Nash just depends on who else you have on your team.

Watch the NBA Finals where Stockton raped Jordan repeatedly.

Also ask the Houston Rockets about Stockton's clutch ability.

[GreatHILL]

Stockton was definitely better than Nash but Kidd vs Nash just depends on who else you have on your team.

Watch the NBA Finals where Stockton raped Jordan repeatedly.

Also ask the Houston Rockets about Stockton's clutch ability.


stockton raped jordan repeatedly??? lmao pass me that weed wigga

[JohnFreeman]

C U C K

love Nash doe

[masonanddixon]

stockton raped jordan repeatedly??? lmao pass me that weed wigga

Watch the series. He repeatedly took Jordan off the dribble at will.

Just because the dood was a pure PG in the purest sense of the term doesn't mean he couldn't score on anybody whenever he wanted.

[StephHamann]

Top 5

Only PGs that are clearly ahead of him are Magic Isiah,Curry and Oscar.

After that you could pick everybody out of Nash,Kidd,Stockton,Payton,Frazier,Cousy. I pick Nash, because his game is the most aesthetically pleasing ever imo.

[Marchesk]

IMO he is the worst MVP winner ever. It's a joke that he has 2.

Proof of strong era. Imagine Cousy winning MVPs in the 60s.

[feyki]

Magic
Oscar
Cousy
Frazier
Isiah
Stockton

And Nash ..

[ninephive]

Probably top 10, right behind Parker. What Tony did to him in the 2008 playoffs was straight embarrassing.

[plowking]

Watch the series. He repeatedly took Jordan off the dribble at will.

Just because the dood was a pure PG in the purest sense of the term doesn't mean he couldn't score on anybody whenever he wanted.

Lol, no he couldn't.

Over the course of his 20 season career, in which he barely missed games, he only scored 30 or more points like 10 times I think. It might even be less, since I can't remember exactly now.

Another reason Nash was probably the better player. If your team was struggling to score, he could do it.

[feyki]

Lol, no he couldn't.

Over the course of his 20 season career, in which he barely missed games, he only scored 30 or more points like 10 times I think. It might even be less, since I can't remember exactly now.

Another reason Nash was probably the better player. If your team was struggling to score, he could do it.


Stockton averaged 16.6 Points with %56.5 TS in between 88 to 95 at playoffs .

Nash averaged 21.2 Points with %60 TS in between 05-07 at playoffs .

Just 5 points and 3.5 TS .

Stockton also had 1.3 more assists , 1.6 more steals and 0.7 less turnovers in their primes(88-95 , 05-07) .

And Stockton has 8 great years , Nash just 3 .

[Dragonyeuw]

stockton raped jordan repeatedly??? lmao pass me that weed wigga

I'd have to watch the series again to see what's being talked about here, but I will say that Stockton was deceptively fast and crafty with his dribble. He came before the and-1 era so he doesn't have that flash, but he got to his spots when he needed/wanted too. Mark Price in the same vein was similarly much quicker than you'd think.

[plowking]

Stockton averaged 16.6 Points with %56.5 TS in between 88 to 95 at playoffs .

Nash averaged 21.2 Points with %60 TS in between 05-07 at playoffs .

Just 5 points and 3.5 TS .

Stockton also had 1.3 more assists , 1.6 more steals and 0.7 less turnovers in their primes(88-95 , 05-07) .

And Stockton has 8 great years , Nash just 3 .

Nash only had 3 great years? Where have you been?
Nash from 03/04 - 11/12 averaged 16/11 on 51/43/91...
Stockton from 87/88 - 95/96 averaged 16/13 on 52/39/83...
Pretty even as far as primes go...

In that same span in the playoffs...
Nash put up 20/11 on 49/39/91...
Stockton put up 15/12 on 46/31/83...

14/9 career averages for Nash and 13/11 for Stockton. Fairly close there as well.

Nash IMO was the better guard at his peak, he is more decorated in terms of individual accolades, and was a far bigger offensive threat than Stockton ever was in terms of scoring. Nash for me was the more diverse passer as well, but I won't get into that, and simply say they were equal.

It isn't all to ridiculous to have Nash>Stockton. The more I think about it, the more I think it is true. Nash never got the respect he deserved, and he doesn't even get it from his peers when you have guys like Shaq talking about being robbed by Nash for an MVP.

[feyki]

Plowking ;

First of all , Nash was the best player of 2005 for me and i think he deserved 2005 mvp , easily .

2006 Mvp is debatable cause Dirk better in that season to me . But Nash had top 2 mvp votes in three consecutive years .


Stockton averaged 21 points , 16 ast , 2.8 stl , 4.5 to on 100 poss in his between 25 to 35 at playoffs .

Nash averaged 25 pts , 13 ast , 0.8 stl , 4.7 to on 100 poss in his between 25 to 35 at playoffs .

They are equal on offence . But Defensive side goes to Stockton with far margin .

[Stout]

In the 9-12 range.

[ClipperRevival]

If I had to pick one, I would take Stockton over Nash. I always want a 2 way guy if possible and Stockton was vastly superior on the D end. Not to mention, Stockton had superior athleticism, which enabled him to generate steals at GOAT level and just more impactful at covering the court.

Nash was the superior offensive player and put up better shooting numbers but it wasn't a landslide. Stockton was also very efficient at .515/.384/.826. Nash was also probably the better passer despite Stockton's superior assist numbers but again, not a landslide.

[plowking]

Plowking ;

First of all , Nash was the best player of 2005 for me and i think he deserved 2005 mvp , easily .

2006 Mvp is debatable cause Dirk better in that season to me . But Nash had top 2 mvp votes in three consecutive years .


Stockton averaged 21 points , 16 ast , 2.8 stl , 4.5 to on 100 poss in his between 25 to 35 at playoffs .

Nash averaged 25 pts , 13 ast , 0.8 stl , 4.7 to on 100 poss in his between 25 to 35 at playoffs .

They are equal on offence . But Defensive side goes to Stockton with far margin .

They aren't really equal offensively though.

They are probably equal as passers, but then Nash has the obvious edge in scoring and shooting. Only ten 30 point games over a career as long as Stockton's speaks for itself. He wasn't someone that could explode for points and carry you when needed like Paul, IT, Payton or Nash.

Nash was the guy putting up historic 48 point games when his team needed him, and without Amare.

I mean the guy had 15 game+ playoff runs where he was averaging 24/11... C'mon man. Go back and look at his series against Dallas in 04-05. That is one of the best series a PG has ever had, and will ever have...

For me, he was better at his peak, has more hardware, is the better offensive player, etc...

[plowking]

If I had to pick one, I would take Stockton over Nash. I always want a 2 way guy if possible and Stockton was vastly superior on the D end. Not to mention, Stockton had superior athleticism, which enabled him to generate steals at GOAT level and just more impactful at covering the court.

Nash was the superior offensive player and put up better shooting numbers but it wasn't a landslide. Stockton was also very efficient at .515/.384/.826. Nash was also probably the better passer despite Stockton's superior assist numbers but again, not a landslide.

Good post. I don't think defense at the PG position is as impactful as everywhere else. At the end of the day the PG will always guard the other PG, and no one else. Isn't like a SG or SF where they guard 1-3, or like a big man where defense is vital.

Nash had better PG skills than both Kidd and Stockton. Like you said, probably the best passer out of the 3, scorer, and far away the better shooter. Those are the 3 most important skills for a PG.

[Stout]

Magic
Oscar
Cousy
Frazier
Isiah
Stockton

And Nash ..
Kidd and Payton were better than Nash. Curry is already better than peak Nash, and has a championship and 1 MVP, which is better than 2 MVPs.

[ClipperRevival]

Good post. I don't think defense at the PG position is as impactful as everywhere else. At the end of the day the PG will always guard the other PG, and no one else. Isn't like a SG or SF where they guard 1-3, or like a big man where defense is vital.

Nash had better PG skills than both Kidd and Stockton. Like you said, probably the best passer out of the 3, scorer, and far away the better shooter. Those are the 3 most important skills for a PG.

Sort of disagree about the part in red. Your strengths or weaknesses as a defender will dictate that. For instance, Kevin Johnson guarded MJ regularly because he had the quickness that Majerle didn't. Ditto for Payton over Hersey Hawkins on MJ. Ditto for CP3, who is a GOAT level defender at the PG position and has guarded 1-3, even Durant at times. On the flip side, if you are a bad defender, you need to be hidden, like Magic at times.

Also, your ability to attract other defenders besides PGs to guard you is also something to consider. A guy like CP3 has regularly attracted the attention of the opposition's best defenders, like Kawai or Klay or Allen, etc over the years because their PG couldn't handle CP3 alone.

[tpols]

What makes Stockton and Kidd better players than Nash? Defense at the PG position is probably the least important. Aside from that, Nash possesses all the qualities that make a PG valuable, more so than both these guys. Even if you consider them equal as passers, Nash was so much more equipped and dangerous on the offensive end than both these guys. .

Bolded is a very ignorant statement, if you can do something unique at your position and greatly impact the game with it, it is somehow still worth less? Nonsense.

Nash is to Dirk as Kidd is to KG.. its a matter of preference and making a definitive statement either way pretty much removes your credibility.

[Stout]

I don't think defense at the PG position is as impactful as everywhere else.

PG is arguably the most important position on offense. So why would it be not impactful to limit the guy running the offense? :hammerhead:

[ClipperRevival]

Another thing about Nash is that you really had to cater your whole offense around him. I don't want to call it a gimmicky type offense but it bordered on that. Stockton was obviously ball dominant too but not to the extent of Nash. Nash did a lot of probing with a live dribble all over the court, including his regular forays on the baseline. With Stockton, you could run a more traditional P&R offense or have him dump it down to the post.

Stockton was clearly the 2nd best player on a team that went to 2 finals and competed very well with MJ's Bull in both finals. Both finals were ultra competitive and a couple missed shots here and there from MJ could've meant a title or two for Stockton. I just think to win, Stockton was better for your team with given the fact that you could run a more traditional offense with him.

[riseagainst]

top 5 imo.

Magic
Oscar
Isaiah
Kidd
Nash

[feyki]

Plowking ;

Yes , I think Nash had better peak too . 2005 was special year , like Curry's last year . But Stockton had better prime and career .

They aren't equal on playmaking , Stockton had 3-4 more assists than Nash in their prime . Nash had shooting and scoring . But Steals also make impact on offence . Stockton had 1.5-2 more steals per game . I can say they are equal on offence when looks the total impacts .

Stout ;

Kidd and Nash are close to me . But Payton isn't on the same level to them .

Curry just played in 3 playoffs .

[FKAri]

It seems Nash's stock has gone up the last couple years on this board. I used to be considered a Nash "apologist" and now I see he's getting more praise than even I would deem worthy. I have him top 10.

[tontoz]

When Nash was in his prime he was an average defender. When he got up in years his D predictably suffered but he wasn't as bad a defender as his reputation suggests.

Personally I would take him over Isiah. Isiah had poor scoring efficiency and wasn't a very motivated defender. He was already in decline when the Pistons won their first title.

Isiah was out of the league at 32. Nash averaged 17/11 with a 50/40/90 season at age 33. Easy call for me.

[tontoz]

PG is arguably the most important position on offense. So why would it be not impactful to limit the guy running the offense? :hammerhead:


Bigs have far more impact defensively than guards because they protect the rim and are involved in more plays defensively.

Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Michael Jordan, and Gary Payton are the only guards to have ever won DPOY.

[TonyMontana]

Steve Nash benefitted greatly from the rule changes in the mid 00s. So did all of the other perimeter stars like Kobe, Iverson, etc.

That's why his stats are better than John Stockton.

But you can't hurt him for the rules he played in.

Nash is one of the very best offensive players of all-time. And his position doesn't call for much defense(PG).

He is DEFINETLY top 5. I would even have him top 3 with Magic, and Stockton.

[greatest-ever]

Generally very underrated. I'd put him 4th behind Magic, Oscar and Stockton. Curry will likely pass Nash within a few years honestly. Paul has a chance to pass Nash as well but i don't see it.

[tpols]

Steve Nash benefitted greatly from the rule changes in the mid 00s. So did all of the other perimeter stars like Kobe, Iverson, etc.

That's why his stats are better than John Stockton.

But you can't hurt him for the rules he played in.

Nash is one of the very best offensive players of all-time. And his position doesn't call for much defense(PG).

He is DEFINETLY top 5. I would even have him top 3 with Magic, and Stockton.

you can a little when comparing him to guys who had to play under tougher conditions..

Nash's peak came when he was already old by nba standards, and it only came once they stopped allowing defenders to hang on people. And it also came when he was given a stacked offensive squad with an offense only approach.

The conditions really couldn't be more tailor made.

If you drop Steve on an average to inept offensive squad in any other time period besides the 80s west, he's probably a poor man's mark price with more injuries.


Where as a guy like Jason Kidd can play on any team in any environment.. slow defensive team in slug it out era? yup. High octane offense in a faster paced less physical era? yup. It doesn't matter where you place Kidd. He is so well rounded and flexible his game can thrive pretty much anywhere. Nash's needs a certain set of requirements, or he isn't going to be steve nash.

[Prime_Shaq]

Definitely Top 7, arguably Top 5

[houston]

Magic
Oscar
Frazier
Zeke
Kidd
Paul
Stockton
Cousy
Nash
Payton

[Cold soul]

Top 10.

[Round Mound]

1-Magic
2-Isiah
3-Stockton
4-Fraizer
5-Payton
6-Kidd
7-Nash

Considering Big O More Of an Off-Guard or SG than Point...

[masonanddixon]

Curry isn't really a point guard/floor general like those other guys, he's only a point guard by virtue of size.

[FKAri]

Magic
Oscar
Frazier
Zeke
Kidd
Paul
Stockton
Cousy
Nash
Payton

That's not in order is it.....right? Please?

[kennethgriffin]

#1 Magic
#2 Oscar
#3 West
#4 Isiah
#5 Stockton
#6 Cousy
#7 Kidd
#8 Payton
#9 Paul
#10 Frazier
#11 Parker
#12 Archibald
#13 Nash/Curry

[PP34Deuce]

I got steve nash in the 7-9 category. I still have stockton over him because of his ability to defend and orchestrate while still shooting good percentages.

[ClipperRevival]

When Nash was in his prime he was an average defender. When he got up in years his D predictably suffered but he wasn't as bad a defender as his reputation suggests.

Personally I would take him over Isiah. Isiah had poor scoring efficiency and wasn't a very motivated defender. He was already in decline when the Pistons won their first title.

Isiah was out of the league at 32. Nash averaged 17/11 with a 50/40/90 season at age 33. Easy call for me.

But Isiah was a natural leader, clutch as hell, a killer and a winner. All those traits matter to me. He was "the man" for those Bad Boy Pistons teams even though Dumars won FMVP in 1989. Numbers don't do Isiah complete justice IMO. He just had all of the intangibles. And he tore his Achillies which almost forced him to retire.

But I must give Nash a ton of credit for being so effective well into his late 30's, which is truly rare for a small PG.

[ClipperRevival]

Bigs have far more impact defensively than guards because they protect the rim and are involved in more plays defensively.

Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Michael Jordan, and Gary Payton are the only guards to have ever won DPOY.

True. But that doesn't mean having a PG who can defend at a high level isn't beneficial to your team. The less holes you have on D, the less you have to cover up for a guy.

[plowking]

Bolded is a very ignorant statement, if you can do something unique at your position and greatly impact the game with it, it is somehow still worth less? Nonsense.

Nash is to Dirk as Kidd is to KG.. its a matter of preference and making a definitive statement either way pretty much removes your credibility.

It isn't though. The PG has the least influence on the game defensively out of any position. In terms of general statements that holds true.

Of course being a good defender at the PG position is valuable, but it isn't the most vital thing needed out of a PG. Nash has all the best qualities needed to be a PG. He does the important things probably better than any PG in history. Him and Chris Paul in particular.

[iamgine]

At his peak he's basically up there with the best.

Yeah he benefited a lot from the rule change.

His stats is very good but his impact went way beyond stats. This guy just singlehandedly wreck defenses all by himself. There's a reason he won those MVPs. I watched him play and it's very clear that he was playing at an all time great level. As great as Steph Curry plays this season, I don't think it eclipses what Nash did.

[tpols]

It isn't though. The PG has the least influence on the game defensively out of any position. In terms of general statements that holds true.

Of course being a good defender at the PG position is valuable, but it isn't the most vital thing needed out of a PG. Nash has all the best qualities needed to be a PG. He does the important things probably better than any PG in history. Him and Chris Paul in particular.

the main duties of a point guard are what though? Facilitation, passing, handling the ball, and being a leader.. it's the glue guy, the set up guy. Only thing Nash is better at there is dribbling, but even then he's an over dribbler which sort of takes away from whole team ball movement anyway.

Everything outside of those attributes, defense, shooting, scoring, rebounding, etc. are primary functions of other positions. Bigs = best for defense and rebounding, SG's and SF's best for scoring (especially clutch where they outperform all other positions).


So if you break it down Kidd's defense and rebounding is no more foreign to his position than scoring is to Nash's.

I'm sure you've heard what the deal is for scoring PG's leading their teams to titles right? It rarely happens.. mainly because there's always an SG or SF out there who can do it better. Even C's have been much more dominant scorers historically than PG's.


So the counter to brushing Kidd aside because his strengths are considered secondary attributes for his position can be done with Steve and his scoring as well by observing that PG's are one of the least impactful positions for scoring.

[Young X]

the main duties of a point guard are what though? Facilitation, passing, handling the ball, and being a leader.. it's the glue guy, the set up guy. Only thing Nash is better at there is dribbling, but even then he's an over dribbler which sort of takes away from whole team ball movement anyway.

Everything outside of those attributes, defense, shooting, scoring, rebounding, etc. are primary functions of other positions. Bigs = best for defense and rebounding, SG's and SF's best for scoring (especially clutch where they outperform all other positions).


So if you break it down Kidd's defense and rebounding is no more foreign to his position than scoring is to Nash's.

I'm sure you've heard what the deal is for scoring PG's leading their teams to titles right? It rarely happens.. mainly because there's always an SG or SF out there who can do it better. Even C's have been much more dominant scorers historically than PG's.


So the counter to brushing Kidd aside because his strengths are considered secondary attributes for his position can be done with Steve and his scoring as well by observing that PG's are one of the least impactful positions for scoring.Shooting/scoring and rebounding/defense don't hold the same weight. Scoring and shooting is more important especially for the guy that is handling the ball the majority of the time and running the offense.

[plowking]

the main duties of a point guard are what though? Facilitation, passing, handling the ball, and being a leader.. it's the glue guy, the set up guy. Only thing Nash is better at there is dribbling, but even then he's an over dribbler which sort of takes away from whole team ball movement anyway.

Everything outside of those attributes, defense, shooting, scoring, rebounding, etc. are primary functions of other positions. Bigs = best for defense and rebounding, SG's and SF's best for scoring (especially clutch where they outperform all other positions).


So if you break it down Kidd's defense and rebounding is no more foreign to his position than scoring is to Nash's.

I'm sure you've heard what the deal is for scoring PG's leading their teams to titles right? It rarely happens.. mainly because there's always an SG or SF out there who can do it better. Even C's have been much more dominant scorers historically than PG's.


So the counter to brushing Kidd aside because his strengths are considered secondary attributes for his position can be done with Steve and his scoring as well by observing that PG's are one of the least impactful positions for scoring.

You're off base.

Scoring is a requirement from your PG. Like YoungX said, the PG has the ball in his hands the majority of the time. It is a requirement if you can't find the right shot, that the PG can bail you out with a decent shot of his own.

Passing and floor general is the main trait you want from your PG. We can all agree on that. Then you want him to be able to shoot and score, since he will be the guy on the outside, the guy with the ball in his hands the most, and one that can bail you out if the offense stagnates.

[kshutts1]

Why are so many people arguing about what makes a PG, when there are, very clearly, multiple types of PGs?

Why can't we just say "Best players to have played primarily at PG"?

In no real order....

Magic and Oscar are the clear top 2, IMO. Then the rest won't be ordered at all...

Paul
Kidd
Stockton
Cousy
Isiah

... are all better than Nash.

I think Nash falls in to a tier with players like...

Payton
Curry
Frazier
Parker

... and probably some older players that I likely forgot, since I'm doing this so quickly.

I won't rank Nash higher than 8. I can see how others may pick and choose attributes with which to rank, and that would understandably differ their opinions from my own. But looking at it as "best player to play PG" this is where I stand.

[tpols]

You're off base.

Scoring is a requirement from your PG. Like YoungX said, the PG has the ball in his hands the majority of the time. It is a requirement if you can't find the right shot, that the PG can bail you out with a decent shot of his own.

Passing and floor general is the main trait you want from your PG. We can all agree on that. Then you want him to be able to shoot and score, since he will be the guy on the outside, the guy with the ball in his hands the most, and one that can bail you out if the offense stagnates.

there's no requirement that the PG has to bail you out.. they should be able to score of course every position has to to some extent. Even Kidd was dropping 20 ppg in his playoff runs as a poorer scorer. Nash though had Dirk, he had Joe Johnson and Amare, at the very end he had Kobe. Why is it on the PG to take the bail out shot?

Nash just happened to be one of the best at them on his teams, but there's no rule that your point guard should be able to fill that role.. that's typically a bigger guard's role. Nash is just somewhat of an exception.. but he still wasn't a dominant enough scorer to compete with the upper echelon of scorers he'd see in the playoffs.


How did Nash's scoring work out for him in 2010 WCF's when he saw a SG who could perform that role much better than himself?


And I do not agree with young X that scoring is for sure more important than defense and rebounding.. they are all very important, fundamental blocks of basketball. Even if you think one is better than the other it isn't going to be by much.

[feyki]

Why are so many people arguing about what makes a PG, when there are, very clearly, multiple types of PGs?

Why can't we just say "Best players to have played primarily at PG"?

In no real order....

Magic and Oscar are the clear top 2, IMO. Then the rest won't be ordered at all...

Paul
Kidd
Stockton
Cousy
Isiah

... are all better than Nash.

I think Nash falls in to a tier with players like...

Payton
Curry
Frazier
Parker

... and probably some older players that I likely forgot, since I'm doing this so quickly.

I won't rank Nash higher than 8. I can see how others may pick and choose attributes with which to rank, and that would understandably differ their opinions from my own. But looking at it as "best player to play PG" this is where I stand.


Frazier is too underrated in your list . You should check the early 70's bro . I think he and Isiah on the same level . Both are great on both ends .

[ImKobe]

Nash is not better than the likes of CP3, Westbrook, Curry etc. so he's maybe top 10 based off accolades but production wise his assists totals were inflated due to the system and he didn't play much defense either. I'd put him behind CP3 and Kidd. Only thing you have to look at are his 2 MVPs but you can make a clear case for Shaq in 05 and Kobe/Bran/Duncan in 06.

[kshutts1]

Frazier is too underrated in your list . You should check the early 70's bro . I think he and Isiah on the same level . Both are great on both ends .

I'll look in to it. Thanks.

[Rocketswin2013]

Above Thomas and ****ing Cousy, lol.

[k0kakw0rld]

Logo and Oscar are 2s imo, so...

Magic
Stockton
Isiah

are clearly better

Nash is in the next tier with

Payton
Kidd
Frazier
Curry (who should easily eclipse this tier after this season)

so 5-10th
Kidd > Payton and Nash

[tontoz]

But Isiah was a natural leader, clutch as hell, a killer and a winner. All those traits matter to me. He was "the man" for those Bad Boy Pistons teams even though Dumars won FMVP in 1989. Numbers don't do Isiah complete justice IMO. He just had all of the intangibles. And he tore his Achillies which almost forced him to retire.

But I must give Nash a ton of credit for being so effective well into his late 30's, which is truly rare for a small PG.


He wasnt leading a bunch of scrubs. He had arguably the strongest supporting cast of any star player over the last 30 years.

The Bad Boys were known for their toughness and defense. Isiah was not a guy anyone feared defensively.

Offensively he was inefficient. He was a career 29% shooter from 3. He had a TS of under 51% for his last 5 seasons. To put that in perspective a TS of 51% wouldn't even rank top 40 among pgs today.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/trueShootingPct

His career high ORTG was 115. Nash's career average ORTG was 118 and he obviously played far longer.

If it wasn't for much better teamates nobody would rank Isiah over Nash.

[tontoz]

True. But that doesn't mean having a PG who can defend at a high level isn't beneficial to your team. The less holes you have on D, the less you have to cover up for a guy.


A good defender at any position helps the team but a pg won't have the same impact as a defensive big.

I lived in Atlanta in the 90s when Dikembe was there. When one of his teamates got beat off the dribble he was there to block/alter their shots.

What is a pg going to do if Malone/Barkley/Hakeem/Drob get past their man? He can't challenge their shots and taking a charge isnt very appealing.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Kidd > Payton and Nash
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/no_michael_bluth.gif

[tpols]

A good defender at any position helps the team but a pg won't have the same impact as a defensive big.

I lived in Atlanta in the 90s when Dikembe was there. When one of his teamates got beat off the dribble he was there to block/alter their shots.

What is a pg going to do if Malone/Barkley/Hakeem/Drob get past their man? He can't challenge their shots and taking a charge isnt very appealing.

Strip them before they even get that far..

[tontoz]

Strip them before they even get that far..

:oldlol:

Kind of hard to strip a guy when you are not guarding him. When someone else gets beat and his man goes to the basket a strip is a long shot, assuming you even get a chance.

[HALLandOATES]

Rationally I think there's only 4 that are flat out better

Isiah
Magic
Cp3
Curry

If we're talking combo then include

Westbrook

Guys that you can't flat out say are better Rationally(and it should be a given people should be rationale,but sadly they're not..)

Payton
Stockton
Kidd
Iverson

So def top 5-10..whoever saying top 10-15 dosent know what they're talking about..

Edit-never seen Frazier/Cousy play

[Bird]

Above Thomas and ****ing Cousy, lol.

Cousy was Nash before Nash was Nash.

I am torn on where exactly to place Thomas though.


http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/no_michael_bluth.gif

I'd taken him over Payton for sure, but there is definitely a debate between Nash and Kidd.


Rationally I think there's only 4 that are flat out better

Isiah
Magic
Cp3
Curry

If we're talking combo then include

Westbrook

Guys that you can't flat out say are better Rationally(and it should be a given people should be rationale,but sadly they're not..)

Payton
Stockton
Kidd
Iverson

So def top 5-10..whoever saying top 10-15 dosent know what they're talking about..

Edit-never seen Frazier/Cousy play

I wouldn't take either of the bolded over Nash, but just because their careers are so young. Curry and Westbrook need more seasons and I could see Curry easily cracking the top 5 if he maintains his pace for another 3, 4 or even 5 years.

Frazier and Cousy should definitely be on your list and above Nash, but I understand not placing them up there because you never saw them play. I did not see them live, but watched plenty of games on ESPN classic and highlights from youtube to get a gauge for how good they were.

Kidd and Stockton can be argued, rationally, as better PG's than Nash because they were the complete package, not 90% offense/10% defense. At the same time, you could argue, rationally, that Nash was better than Kidd, but probably not Stockton.

Personally, I'd have Magic, Big O, Cousy, Frazier, Stockton, Isaiah, Kidd and Paul over Nash, with Payton close behind him. And that's not to take anything away from Nash, but those guys were all amazing (and Paul still is amazing) when they played.

[tpols]

:oldlol:

Kind of hard to strip a guy when you are not guarding him. When someone else gets beat and his man goes to the basket a strip is a long shot, assuming you even get a chance.

You've never seen a guard leave his man to strip a big guy unaware of him :wtf:

[houston]

That's not in order is it.....right? Please?


yea


Magic,Oscar,Frazier,Zeke,Kidd top 5.

[Just2McFly]

Kidd and Payton were better than Nash. Curry is already better than peak Nash, and has a championship and 1 MVP, which is better than 2 MVPs.
Here we go again.

[bizil]

GOAT wise, the big three PG's are Magic, Big O, and Zeke. It's been that way for over 20 years. But from there, u could go any number of ways to fill out 4 to 10. For me, I would go with: (no particular order)

Frazier
Stockton
Kidd
Cousy
Payton
Nash
CP3

I think Nash's career merits being a top 10 PG of all time. When it comes to his actual place, I wouldn't put him in the top five. But AFTER that, u could make a case for him anywhere 6-10. Those two MVPs and that Phoenix system REALLY allowed Nash to make up ground FAST once he left Dallas. With Dallas, he was an All Star PG. But not necessarily on track to be an HOFer.

[tontoz]

You've never seen a guard leave his man to strip a big guy unaware of him :wtf:


Sure when the big man is posting up, dribbling and not going anywhere. But when a big beats his man on a drive to the basket? Pretty rare. At that point the big might take only one more dribble before getting to the rim.

[zeerghit]

Nash is not better than the likes of CP3, Westbrook, Curry etc. so he's maybe top 10 based off accolades but production wise his assists totals were inflated due to the system and he didn't play much defense either. I'd put him behind CP3 and Kidd. Only thing you have to look at are his 2 MVPs but you can make a clear case for Shaq in 05 and Kobe/Bran/Duncan in 06.
same with kobe, kobe doesnt belong in top 20 couse of system, if not shaq or philip..hes in same category like nash, couse the SYSTEM

[ClipperRevival]

He wasnt leading a bunch of scrubs. He had arguably the strongest supporting cast of any star player over the last 30 years.

The Bad Boys were known for their toughness and defense. Isiah was not a guy anyone feared defensively.

Offensively he was inefficient. He was a career 29% shooter from 3. He had a TS of under 51% for his last 5 seasons. To put that in perspective a TS of 51% wouldn't even rank top 40 among pgs today.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/trueShootingPct

His career high ORTG was 115. Nash's career average ORTG was 118 and he obviously played far longer.

If it wasn't for much better teamates nobody would rank Isiah over Nash.

TS% is biased because it naturally favors 3 point shooters. But anyways, Isiah was a natural leader, winner, killer and clutch as hell. I take that over an efficient guy who didn't win (not saying Nash specifically).

Stats mean nothing if they aren't accumulated the right way. Isiah did what he had to do to win. Who can forget his 25 point quarter against the Lakers after twisting his ankle? Or his 16 points in 90 seconds? Ask ANY Pistons player who "the man" and leader was and every single one of them will point to Isiah. He was "the man". That carries weight.

[ClipperRevival]

A good defender at any position helps the team but a pg won't have the same impact as a defensive big.

I lived in Atlanta in the 90s when Dikembe was there. When one of his teamates got beat off the dribble he was there to block/alter their shots.

What is a pg going to do if Malone/Barkley/Hakeem/Drob get past their man? He can't challenge their shots and taking a charge isnt very appealing.

Well, obviously a big is more impactful. But like I said, I like two way players and would prefer them if I had the choice over a one way guy.

[ClipperRevival]

Another thing Isiah had over Nash was take over the game type offensive game. Yes, Nash was more efficient offensively but Isiah had the athleticism and skills to better take over offensively when needed.

1989-90 Finals MVP:

27.6 PPG, .542% FG, 7.0 APG, 5.2 RPG

I already mentioned his 25 point quarter in the finals and the 16 points in 90 seconds.

[tontoz]

TS% is biased because it naturally favors 3 point shooters. But anyways, Isiah was a natural leader, winner, killer and clutch as hell. I take that over an efficient guy who didn't win (not saying Nash specifically).

Stats mean nothing if they aren't accumulated the right way. Isiah did what he had to do to win. Who can forget his 25 point quarter against the Lakers after twisting his ankle? Or his 16 points in 90 seconds? Ask ANY Pistons player who "the man" and leader was and every single one of them will point to Isiah. He was "the man". That carries weight.


Do you remember that the Pistons nearly won the next game (game 7 in the finals) with him scoring only 10 pts on 12 shots?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198806210LAL.html

Being a vocal, emotional leader is just swell but Isiah wasn't even the best guard on their title teams. Dumars was better on both ends. He was the guy MJ said guarded him the best. Dumars could also score on MJ.

Even if we eliminate 3s Isiah shot only 46.8% on 2s compared to 51.8% for Nash. Nash was also a far better foul shooter and playmaker.

Isiah is definitely the most overrated player i have ever seen.

[Fire Colangelo]

I have no problem taking Nash over anyone not named Magic and Stockton maybe.

Nash is in the same tier as Isiah, Kidd, Payton for me.

[ClipperRevival]

Do you remember that the Pistons nearly won the next game (game 7 in the finals) with him scoring only 10 pts on 12 shots?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198806210LAL.html

Being a vocal, emotional leader is just swell but Isiah wasn't even the best guard on their title teams. Dumars was better on both ends. He was the guy MJ said guarded him the best. Dumars could also score on MJ.

Even if we eliminate 3s Isiah shot only 46.8% on 2s compared to 51.8% for Nash. Nash was also a far better foul shooter and playmaker.

Isiah is definitely the most overrated player i have ever seen.

Well, obviously he was ineffective in game 7 as he really had no business even playing. But it's obvious you have a very low opinion of the guy so let's just end this debate.

[uncleduck13]

He's top 5 easily for me after Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Kidd

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Perfect timing

I hear some convo about isiah going. just gonna merge my 3 posts from the earlier threads.

So firstly, Id like to talk about his offense.

So, a point guard is obviously, responsible for directing a team's offense.

so here is the placement of nash lead teams, on offense, from 01 onwards, and his raw net rating beside it. (in offensive rtg)

but first, even though his offensive supporting cast was hardly anywhere near as good, here is Isiah
'82: 17th of 23
'83: 11th of 23
'84: 1st of 23
'85: 9th of 23
'86: 7th of 23
'87: 9th of 23
'88: 6th of 23
'89: 7th of 25
'90: 11th of 29
'91: 12th of 29
'92: 15th of 29
'93: 18th of 29
'94: 23rd of 29

4th, +6.5
1st (a +2.8 lead on second) +2.6
1st (a +1.9 lead on second) +7.4
1st (1.8+ lead on second) +3.7

these are his dallas years.

Now, the low net ratings arent a result of him not being impactful because all of them had the same trend. with him on the court, they were around 111-114 on offense. now, dirk obviously had something to do with it, more than nash probably.

But he wasnt a dominant force yet. his PI (which I will be using) RAPM was solid though, on offense at least. +2.5 was the general average. npi rapm for 2001 had him at +2.12 (no PI data for 2001)

but considering he has a good supporting cast, thats a good rapm

So 2005

keep in mind, in 2004, the suns were a below average offensive team, and had D'antoni for the last 61 games

From here on out I will be posting his offensive RAPM as well

1st (+4.5 lead on second) +17.4 +6
2nd(less than first by 0.3) +8 +6.6 (with an extra 6 at the end) (Seriously lol)
1st (+3.3 lead on second) +13 +7.15 (and he was somewhat of a neutral defender here as well)
2nd (less than first by 0.5) +15.4 +7.26
2nd (less than first by 0.3) +8.1 +7.11
1st (+3.4 lead on first) +6.4 +6.65

Gentry comes (smart dude that cant do rotations. trust me lol)

9th +12 +5.52
9th +7.7 +4.88

So, the offense, with nash, was locked in the top 2 for 7 of his 9 years there.
And his rapm was regularly top of the class level, so most of it was impact. (on-off are low for some years becasue of rotations)

But lets get that straight. and each of the "biggest" gaps between first and second were held by a nash lead team


So what happened those last 2 years? Well, it was rotations. put it this way, with nash on the court, the offense was 114.4 points per 100 possessions. it was lower than years past, but only it was only around 3 points per 100 possessions worse than 2010. where their offense was 1st. (though he was declining a bit by then)

the offense with him off the floor was pathetic, to say the least.


Lakers were 9th as well, but lets look at that, though its probably unnecessary.


obviously he didnt exactly have a bad supporting cast, at all, so that was definately a reason, but even with the lakers, with him as the primary facilitator I would think their offense was top 5 with him on the floor as the facilitator. (why I say I think: contrary to popular belief, Kobe being used a facilitator hurt the offense. when he started scoring more, the offense was better. their offensive rating went to 106.7, from the utah game to the last game in boston. the net rating was low, but their offense was roughly 109 in that stretch, though this is an old nash so I doubt this bit even matters)

nash, whose offense depended on the pick and roll, had dwight as the roll man. while this was said to be like "a match in heaven"
the problem was, that dwight slipped screens without leaving room for nash. While nash can operate under the smallest room, this is a broken back nash, so he cant just drive by and create room by himself at this point.

Note: On second thought, I found an article about that last point.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/2/14/3985078/nba-los-angeles-lakers-analysis-how-steve-nash-and-dwight-howard-run-the-pick-and-roll'

Going back in to his RAPM numbers, let me put this into perspective. (though imo I believe its more of a ballpark estimate)

Lebron in 09 had an offensive rapm of 6.28
in 2010 he had one of 7.09 (its PI rapm, so its the weighted version of 2010 + 2009, which would obviously be monstrous)

in 2013 it was 5.8
in 2014 it was 6.48
(once again, 2014 is basically 2013 and 2014 put together, and while he took a step back in 2014 on defense, his offense was still tremendous)

(note, PI rapm punches curry in teh face in 2015 because, well, he wasnt exactly the mvp guy in 2014. by punch in the face he was 2nd)

So thats my bit on his offensive impact.

Ill continue...

On defense (alot of this is credit to Realgm poster L.A. Bird)
(and no, this isnt a copy and paste lol)

So, Nash wasnt a good defender.

But some say that nash lead teams absolutely cannot be a good defensive team.

But in the first half of the 2006 season, with Kurt thomas starting at center since Amare was out

they were a respectable 5th on offense
and 2nd on defense

then he got injured and marion became center. and defense fell off of a cliff.



Then, is Nash as an individual defender.

is he below average? probably. is he the worst defender of all time? not even close.

(yeah these stats are total copy and paste lol)

Team opponent PG efficiency relative to league average
2001: -0.01
2002: -6.4
2003: -3.2
2004: -0.4
2005: -0.7
2006: -1.0
2007: -1.7
2008: +0.7
2009: +0.7
2010: -0.5
2011: -0.2
2012: +0.3
Source: hoopsstats.com

Individual opponent PER relative to league average
2005: ? (can't find data)
2006: +0.3
2007: +1.2
2008: +2.5
2009: +2.2
2010: +0.7
2011: -0.7
2012: -0.7
Source: 82games.com

Defensive RAPM numbers from J.E.'s most recent data (positive is better)
[note, I found data from before this so im adding it on]:
2002: -0.03
2003: -1.4
2004: -1.49
2005: -1.22
2006: -0.56
2007: -0.12
2008: -0.05
2009: -0.48
2010: -0.42
2011: +0.43
2012: +0.43

as for those talking about him being "infallible" in the playoffs

I'm hardly a fan at looking at single games to say "wow he ain't clutch"

But

In 91 against the Bulls he averaged 16.5ppg on 40% shooting with 6 assists and 3.3 turnovers

In 1999, in the opener against the Bulls he shot 3/12

8-6-6 and 5 turnovers. In a win.

In game 2

2/9

10-6-7 3 turnovers

In a win

In a crucial game 5

3/10

7-10-6 3 turnovers

In a win


Game 7 of the 89 finals

5/9

14-5-3 3 turnovers

Game 1 against Chicago in 89.

3/18

9-10-2 in a close home loss.

Game 3 at Chicago. A great way to get that home loss bacl

5-11-8

2/8

Loss

1988 Game 6 vs Boston

3/11

9-9-5


Game 7 vs the lakers


4/12

10-7-0

1987, game 5 vs Boston.

6/16

17-11-5

1 point loss

Game 7 25-9-4

On 10/28 shooting

1984

Opener against the Knicks. Crucial home game that ended up deciding the series

4/11

10-9-4 5 turnovers

final answer:

Magic, Robertson, Nash, then you have the stocktons and fraziers of the world (I consider West a SG, but id put him above nash if he was a pg.)

But tbh if you consider west a pg nash might be out of the top 5 within 10 years.

also, why exactly are we talking about scoring?

Nash isnt the guy that says "oh, its the 4th quarter, Im gonna reeeevvvvv ittttt upppppp"

he's the type of guy thats gonna say

"oh, its the 4th quarter, Im gonna pass the ball around to look for the best shot"

thats not a good, or a bad thing.

but to say he cant score is ridiculous.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

so, yeah.

since a big part of this thread was Nash vs Isiah from this post.

Im gonna go with Nash.

[ClipperRevival]

Perfect timing

I hear some convo about isiah going. just gonna merge my 3 posts from the earlier threads.

So firstly, Id like to talk about his offense.

So, a point guard is obviously, responsible for directing a team's offense.

so here is the placement of nash lead teams, on offense, from 01 onwards, and his raw net rating beside it. (in offensive rtg)

but first, even though his offensive supporting cast was hardly anywhere near as good, here is Isiah
'82: 17th of 23
'83: 11th of 23
'84: 1st of 23
'85: 9th of 23
'86: 7th of 23
'87: 9th of 23
'88: 6th of 23
'89: 7th of 25
'90: 11th of 29
'91: 12th of 29
'92: 15th of 29
'93: 18th of 29
'94: 23rd of 29

4th, +6.5
1st (a +2.8 lead on second) +2.6
1st (a +1.9 lead on second) +7.4
1st (1.8+ lead on second) +3.7

these are his dallas years.

Now, the low net ratings arent a result of him not being impactful because all of them had the same trend. with him on the court, they were around 111-114 on offense. now, dirk obviously had something to do with it, more than nash probably.

But he wasnt a dominant force yet. his PI (which I will be using) RAPM was solid though, on offense at least. +2.5 was the general average. npi rapm for 2001 had him at +2.12 (no PI data for 2001)

but considering he has a good supporting cast, thats a good rapm

So 2005

keep in mind, in 2004, the suns were a below average offensive team, and had D'antoni for the last 61 games

From here on out I will be posting his offensive RAPM as well

1st (+4.5 lead on second) +17.4 +6
2nd(less than first by 0.3) +8 +6.6 (with an extra 6 at the end) (Seriously lol)
1st (+3.3 lead on second) +13 +7.15 (and he was somewhat of a neutral defender here as well)
2nd (less than first by 0.5) +15.4 +7.26
2nd (less than first by 0.3) +8.1 +7.11
1st (+3.4 lead on first) +6.4 +6.65

Gentry comes (smart dude that cant do rotations. trust me lol)

9th +12 +5.52
9th +7.7 +4.88

So, the offense, with nash, was locked in the top 2 for 7 of his 9 years there.
And his rapm was regularly top of the class level, so most of it was impact. (on-off are low for some years becasue of rotations)

But lets get that straight. and each of the "biggest" gaps between first and second were held by a nash lead team


So what happened those last 2 years? Well, it was rotations. put it this way, with nash on the court, the offense was 114.4 points per 100 possessions. it was lower than years past, but only it was only around 3 points per 100 possessions worse than 2010. where their offense was 1st. (though he was declining a bit by then)

the offense with him off the floor was pathetic, to say the least.


Lakers were 9th as well, but lets look at that, though its probably unnecessary.


obviously he didnt exactly have a bad supporting cast, at all, so that was definately a reason, but even with the lakers, with him as the primary facilitator I would think their offense was top 5 with him on the floor as the facilitator. (why I say I think: contrary to popular belief, Kobe being used a facilitator hurt the offense. when he started scoring more, the offense was better. their offensive rating went to 106.7, from the utah game to the last game in boston. the net rating was low, but their offense was roughly 109 in that stretch, though this is an old nash so I doubt this bit even matters)

nash, whose offense depended on the pick and roll, had dwight as the roll man. while this was said to be like "a match in heaven"
the problem was, that dwight slipped screens without leaving room for nash. While nash can operate under the smallest room, this is a broken back nash, so he cant just drive by and create room by himself at this point.

Note: On second thought, I found an article about that last point.

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/2/14/3985078/nba-los-angeles-lakers-analysis-how-steve-nash-and-dwight-howard-run-the-pick-and-roll'

Going back in to his RAPM numbers, let me put this into perspective. (though imo I believe its more of a ballpark estimate)

Lebron in 09 had an offensive rapm of 6.28
in 2010 he had one of 7.09 (its PI rapm, so its the weighted version of 2010 + 2009, which would obviously be monstrous)

in 2013 it was 5.8
in 2014 it was 6.48
(once again, 2014 is basically 2013 and 2014 put together, and while he took a step back in 2014 on defense, his offense was still tremendous)

(note, PI rapm punches curry in teh face in 2015 because, well, he wasnt exactly the mvp guy in 2014. by punch in the face he was 2nd)

So thats my bit on his offensive impact.

Ill continue...

On defense (alot of this is credit to Realgm poster L.A. Bird)
(and no, this isnt a copy and paste lol)

So, Nash wasnt a good defender.

But some say that nash lead teams absolutely cannot be a good defensive team.

But in the first half of the 2006 season, with Kurt thomas starting at center since Amare was out

they were a respectable 5th on offense
and 2nd on defense

then he got injured and marion became center. and defense fell off of a cliff.



Then, is Nash as an individual defender.

is he below average? probably. is he the worst defender of all time? not even close.

(yeah these stats are total copy and paste lol)

Team opponent PG efficiency relative to league average
2001: -0.01
2002: -6.4
2003: -3.2
2004: -0.4
2005: -0.7
2006: -1.0
2007: -1.7
2008: +0.7
2009: +0.7
2010: -0.5
2011: -0.2
2012: +0.3
Source: hoopsstats.com

Individual opponent PER relative to league average
2005: ? (can't find data)
2006: +0.3
2007: +1.2
2008: +2.5
2009: +2.2
2010: +0.7
2011: -0.7
2012: -0.7
Source: 82games.com

Defensive RAPM numbers from J.E.'s most recent data (positive is better)
[note, I found data from before this so im adding it on]:
2002: -0.03
2003: -1.4
2004: -1.49
2005: -1.22
2006: -0.56
2007: -0.12
2008: -0.05
2009: -0.48
2010: -0.42
2011: +0.43
2012: +0.43

as for those talking about him being "infallible" in the playoffs

I'm hardly a fan at looking at single games to say "wow he ain't clutch"

But

In 91 against the Bulls he averaged 16.5ppg on 40% shooting with 6 assists and 3.3 turnovers

In 1999, in the opener against the Bulls he shot 3/12

8-6-6 and 5 turnovers. In a win.

In game 2

2/9

10-6-7 3 turnovers

In a win

In a crucial game 5

3/10

7-10-6 3 turnovers

In a win


Game 7 of the 89 finals

5/9

14-5-3 3 turnovers

Game 1 against Chicago in 89.

3/18

9-10-2 in a close home loss.

Game 3 at Chicago. A great way to get that home loss bacl

5-11-8

2/8

Loss

1988 Game 6 vs Boston

3/11

9-9-5


Game 7 vs the lakers


4/12

10-7-0

1987, game 5 vs Boston.

6/16

17-11-5

1 point loss

Game 7 25-9-4

On 10/28 shooting

1984

Opener against the Knicks. Crucial home game that ended up deciding the series

4/11

10-9-4 5 turnovers

final answer:

Magic, Robertson, Nash, then you have the stocktons and fraziers of the world (I consider West a SG, but id put him above nash if he was a pg.)

But tbh if you consider west a pg nash might be out of the top 5 within 10 years.

also, why exactly are we talking about scoring?

Nash isnt the guy that says "oh, its the 4th quarter, Im gonna reeeevvvvv ittttt upppppp"

he's the type of guy thats gonna say

"oh, its the 4th quarter, Im gonna pass the ball around to look for the best shot"

thats not a good, or a bad thing.

but to say he cant score is ridiculous.

You can have the stats. I'll take 2 rings and one bad call away from a 3 peat in the most competitive era for top tier teams in history. I take a fearless killer like Isiah on my team any day. How do you measure leadership, clutch play and fearlessness in the clutch? I mean what good are stats if you play well for 3 and a half quarters and choke the last 6 minutes of the game because the moment was too bright? Stats mean nothing without context.

[TheBigVeto]

Number 2.
If he never joined the Lakers, he's the undisputed Number 1, GOAT PG.