Current era = selfish bastards

[Straight_Ballin]

Skiles has dished out 30 assists in a single game and the closest we've seen since then was rondo when he dished out 24 assists back in 2010 and Sessions with 24 back in 08. That was 6 fvcking years ago.

Why is this era save for the guys above nothing more than a bunch of selfish pricks that can't dish out anywhere close to 30 assists?

Players in the 90's and 80's like Stockton and Kidd could dish out some serious assists per game.

And don't start your apg bullshit or career assists nonsense. No one cares. This discussion is about most assists in a single game and no player other than rondo and sessions has even come close to 30 assists in one game in this current era.

Selfish bastards....current era is selfish pricks. Pass the fvcking ball and quit worrying about your ppg average dropping!!! There's 24 seconds on the shot clock....not 5. :facepalm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_game.html

[el gringos]

They'll prob use pace of play to argue you, but mostly- you are right. And the NBA wanted it this way. I remember (even stern talking about it and explaining it) the NBA chose to begin marketing the individual over the team as their plan to grow the sport. Look at how good it worked all over te world

[Heavincent]

The two best teams in today's NBA (Warriors and Spurs) run equal opportunity offenses predicated on ball movement, making it hard for one player to rack up a ton of assists. Instead, assists are more evenly distributed.

Ball movement and selfless basketball is promoted more than ever.

[plowking]

Basketball is now more equal opportunity and team based than ever.

The 90's was full of one on one, isolation plays that stemmed from less advanced team defenses, and a reliance on hand checking which was easily negated if the offensive player had a mismatch such as strength or speed.

[Fire Colangelo]

OP, if you knew anything about 90s basketball you'd know that the Scott Skiles 30 assist game was the epitome of statpadding. They were up 30 by the 3rd and Skile just kept playing iirc to pad them assists, not to mention Denver played ZERO defense that game to make everything even easier.

[Smoke117]

...right. Exactly what evidence is this thread founded on? There will always be selfish players...there will also be players who think they are much more than they really are...that's the nature of sports. You're full of shit...that's the only thing I'm taking away from your silly thread.

[TomBrady]

Yeah, single game samples are much more indicative of trends than season or career averages. It's definitely fair to call an entire generation of players selfish because no one in said generation has broken a specific all-time record.

1) single game samples are meaningless. You're just using it to push a silly agenda.
2) equal opportunity offenses.

I have no idea why you mentioned Jason Kidd, he who has exactly two 20+ assist games in his career...compared to Rondo's eight or Nash's nine. I'll add that it's a safe bet that both Rondo and Nash would have more had they played with Karl Malone for 18 years...

[Straight_Ballin]

OP, if you knew anything about 90s basketball you'd know that the Scott Skiles 30 assist game was the epitome of statpadding. They were up 30 by the 3rd and Skile just kept playing iirc to pad them assists, not to mention Denver played ZERO defense that game to make everything even easier.

And how do you explain stockton's 27 and 28 assists in a single game? Were those teams not playing defense either? Look at the link. It's not just Skiles, but a MAJORITY of the guys with the most assists in a single game are 80/90's players.

Good effort, but you just proved that you know nothing about 90s basketball.

[inclinerator]

more like less selfish, one person hogging the ball all the time will rack up assist

[CavaliersFTW]

Has anyone actually ever counted whether or not skiles got 30 assists in that game?

Walt Fraziers "19 assist" Finals game ended up being 9 assists on film.

Shaq's "15 blocks" career high or whatever ended up being like 9 on film.

Some of these epic performances that involve advanced individual statistics can have some home cooking from the statisticians. That could have something to do with it. That'd be a good game to compare official stats with game film stats.

[Heavincent]

Selfish pricks

http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/spurs-ball-movement-perfection1.gif

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/4bYYPLGiZavZr6odQMT2_61HGAc=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3783750/warriorsball.0.gif

[Straight_Ballin]

more like less selfish, one person hogging the ball all the time will rack up assist

So a player having the ball with intent to pass it is selfish because he has the ball in his hands more. It's called being a facilitator and a passer and not being selfish.

I've heard it all now....

Maybe someone will posts some gifs of teams passing the ball a total of 3 times before scoring which is nothing compared to past eras. Oh wait.....

[Straight_Ballin]

Has anyone actually ever counted whether or not skiles got 30 assists in that game?

Walt Fraziers "19 assist" Finals game ended up being 9 assists on film.

Shaq's "15 blocks" career high or whatever ended up being like 9 on film.

Some of these epic performances that involve advanced individual statistics can have some home cooking from the statisticians. That could have something to do with it. That'd be a good game to compare official stats with game film stats.

No, skiles was legit. You must be thinking of wilts 100 points or 55 rebounds as having some home cooking applied.

[warriorfan]

Has anyone actually ever counted whether or not skiles got 30 assists in that game?

Walt Fraziers "19 assist" Finals game ended up being 9 assists on film.

Shaq's "15 blocks" career high or whatever ended up being like 9 on film.

Some of these epic performances that involve advanced individual statistics can have some home cooking from the statisticians. That could have something to do with it. That'd be a good game to compare official stats with game film stats.

I wonder what Wilt's "100 point game" would end up as if we had film.

[1987_Lakers]

Basketball is now more equal opportunity and team based than ever.

The 90's was full of one on one, isolation plays that stemmed from less advanced team defenses, and a reliance on hand checking which was easily negated if the offensive player had a mismatch such as strength or speed.

This

Have you people even been following basketball the last 5 years or so? All the elite teams have had amazing ball movement, the Spurs from 2012-current will go down as one of the greatest passing teams ever. 2011 Mavs, current Warriors, LeBron's Heat all passed the ball beautifully.

With the exception of the 90's Jazz, most of the 90's teams played ISO ball. It was all slow paced, 1 on 1, painful to watch at times. Even in the 00's (excluding early 00's Kings) it was the same. Kobe's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs from '99-'07 all ran predictable offenses.

Offenses today are starting to look more like the 80's Celtics & Lakers the way the ball moves, only difference is teams today shoot the 3 while in the 80's it was mid-range shots.


Learn your damn history folks.

[Straight_Ballin]

I wonder what Wilt's "100 point game" would end up as if we had film.

Back then, you would just write down how many points you thought you scored on a peice of paper so that when the reporter took the picture, it looked legit.

[sdot_thadon]

I find it odd a 90s era fan can't distinguish the differences in today's game and make correct assertions from it. Too common, I think most of the guys from my era think with their hearts and not their brains.

[CavaliersFTW]

No, skiles was legit. You must be thinking of wilts 100 points or 55 rebounds as having some home cooking applied.
Points can't be fudged in a game - as they determine the outcome of a game, a coach or fan or someone is going to challenge any discrepancy in point totals in a game and you don't get point totals accurately without knowing an individuals points accurately. That's the single most important stat in basketball and it will never be tallied incorrectly.

Things that are more pertinent to individuals like like rebounds, assists, etc, yes those all can be fudged with home cooking or just simple statistician error (generally an error rate of about 10 to 30 percent on things like assists is expected anyways).

[Straight_Ballin]

I find it odd a 90s era fan can't distinguish the differences in today's game and make correct assertions from it. Too common, I think most of the guys from my era think with their hearts and not their brains.

I find it odd that you can't just admit that there were more games in the 80s/90s than current era where individual assist totals were higher.

Players were less selfish back then.

We can talk "differences of today's game" all day and try and spin it anyway we want, but facts are facts and the numbers don't lie.

If players of today were not as selfish, we would have more players from this era on the list that I linked in the original post. Since that is NOT the case, players of today are more selfish. It's that simple.

[TomBrady]

OP is an idiot.

The two best teams in today's NBA (Warriors and Spurs) run equal opportunity offenses predicated on ball movement, making it hard for one player to rack up a ton of assists. Instead, assists are more evenly distributed.

Ball movement and selfless basketball is promoted more than ever.

Basketball is now more equal opportunity and team based than ever.

The 90's was full of one on one, isolation plays that stemmed from less advanced team defenses, and a reliance on hand checking which was easily negated if the offensive player had a mismatch such as strength or speed.

Yeah, single game samples are much more indicative of trends than season or career averages. It's definitely fair to call an entire generation of players selfish because no one in said generation has broken a specific all-time record.

1) single game samples are meaningless. You're just using it to push a silly agenda.
2) equal opportunity offenses.

I have no idea why you mentioned Jason Kidd, he who has exactly two 20+ assist games in his career...compared to Rondo's eight or Nash's nine. I'll add that it's a safe bet that both Rondo and Nash would have more had they played with Karl Malone for 18 years...

This

Have you people even been following basketball the last 5 years or so? All the elite teams have had amazing ball movement, the Spurs from 2012-current will go down as one of the greatest passing teams ever. 2011 Mavs, current Warriors, LeBron's Heat all passed the ball beautifully.

With the exception of the 90's Jazz, most of the 90's teams played ISO ball. It was all slow paced, 1 on 1, painful to watch at times. Even in the 00's (excluding early 00's Kings) it was the same. Kobe's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs from '99-'07 all ran predictable offenses.

Offenses today are starting to look more like the 80's Celtics & Lakers the way the ball moves, only difference is teams today shoot the 3 while in the 80's it was mid-range shots.


Learn your damn history folks.
Let's call it a day, job well done guys. We can give ourselves a pat on the back.

[Kblaze8855]

Other facts about the Nuggets team he did it against...

34 year old Bernard King had 50 on them the game before when they gave up 162 points. Game before that. The night before Sheman Douglas had 42. Travis Mays who you have never heard of had 36 the game before. I made a video on them once and in that topic had these additional facts:



They gave up 162ppg in the preseason. Yes...162....with the worst defensive effort in pro basketball history....

In the 1990 preseason the Nuggets allowed the Hawks to score...one hundred...and ninety four...points.

1
9
4

In regulation. Gave up 112 in the second half.

And followed it up by giving up 186 to the Suns!

One game they gave up 173 to the Celtics in that preseason. Larry Bird...this is 1990 Larry Bird...past his prime....had 12 points, 19 rebounds, and 12 assists in 19 minutes. And they played them again in 5 days..Bird had 21/15/13 in one half.

They gave up 154 points per game over their first 7 in the regular season including 160+ 3 times with a high of 173.


You cant really give full credit to any numbers vs that team.

[FrobeShaw]

Go to bed, dad

[nba_55]

OP owned so bad in this thread :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

I find it odd that you can't just admit that there were more games in the 80s/90s than current era where individual assist totals were higher.

Players were less selfish back then.

We can talk "differences of today's game" all day and try and spin it anyway we want, but facts are facts and the numbers don't lie.

If players of today were not as selfish, we would have more players from this era on the list that I linked in the original post. Since that is NOT the case, players of today are more selfish. It's that simple.
Honestly, there's not even much more for me to say here. You've been trampled already, there's nothing to admit and no need to spin anything unless you've got rocks for brains. You fellas need to learn to stop trumpeting subjective thoughts as fact and your topics will go over much easier. Besides aren't you too old for that shit bro?

[Hizack]

There are more assists per game in the 80s and the 90s than today, but pace was higher back then, so the difference might not be that big.


[code]Season Games played Total assists Assist per team per game
------ ------------ ------------- ------------------------
14

[Straight_Ballin]

OP is an idiot.




Let's call it a day, job well done guys. We can give ourselves a pat on the back.

And yet....

If players of today were not as selfish, we would have more players from this era on the list that I linked in the original post. Since that is NOT the case, players of to day are more selfish. It's that simple.

[TomBrady]

And yet....

If players of today were not as selfish, we would have more players from this era on the list that I linked in the original post. Since that is NOT the case, players of to day are more selfish. It's that simple.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone has taken turns shooting down your sad little agenda. It's time to stop posting.

[Straight_Ballin]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone has taken turns shooting down your sad little agenda. It's time to stop posting.

No one can refute the fact that if players of today were not as selfish, we would have more players from this era on the list that I linked in the original post!

Current era is proven to be more selfish!

[TomBrady]

No one can refute the fact that if players of today were not as selfish, we would have more players from this era on the list that I linked in the original post!

Current era is proven to be more selfish!
Your argument has been debunked on several levels, you're just refusing to acknowledge it.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Michael-Scott-Closes-The-Door-Awkwardly-On-The-Office.gif

[Straight_Ballin]

Your argument has been debunked on several levels, you're just refusing to acknowledge it.

Nope... only excuses and poor arguments against it have been made.

90s better era of basketball vs Present day.

:banana:

[Showtime80']

Give me a break with this "equal opportunity" BS!!! Aside from the last 2 years the NBA has been OWNED buy Lebron and Kobe ball!!! And this year even though the Warriors are a good passing team, they still depend on Curry scoring almost 30 a game!!! The Spurs are THE ONLY team that plays with any semblance of equal opportunity offensive distribution and have done it for the last 18 years!

In the 1980's NO championship winning team had a scorer go above 26ppg and the teams had 5 to 7 players in double figures!!! Those were true equal opportunity offense with STARS instead of role players. Where were all the top scorers from the 80's (Jordan, Wilkins, King, Barkley, English, Dantley with Jazz) come May? Out in the first and second rounds!!!

The 80's was the PEAK of team basketball with TRUE PG's leading teams both in fast break and half court situations, looking for the best opportunity for their teammates instead of themselves.

The NBA offenses have gone in the crapper since the death of the low post dominant center and the score first PG's, simple as that. It's 3 pointers or penetration, nothing in between and rare fast break games!

Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis and Baron Davis must be very proud of their bastard children leading the NBA to the present sad state!

[ShawkFactory]

Nope... only excuses and poor arguments against it have been made.

90s better era of basketball vs Present day.

:banana:
This is so confusing because you are literally getting destroyed in this thread.

You just deciding to be like 3ball and refuse to remotely acknowledge good points made against you?

:confusedshrug:

[Showtime80']

Call me when a present day PG can decimate defenses like this ALL in an attempt to get the best shot possible for a teammate. Westbrick, Curry, Rose, Lillard, Wall etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoEl2Oo66IY

The true PG position started dying in the mid to late 90's just like the true dominant center did! Two factors that have contributed to the decay of in the quality of game.

[Straight_Ballin]

This is so confusing because you are literally getting destroyed in this thread.

You just deciding to be like 3ball and refuse to remotely acknowledge good points made against you?

:confusedshrug:

Look at this link and compare games played from 85-99 to games played from 2000 to present day where someone had at least 21 assists. Of the top 61 games in which a player had the most assists, there are only 13 instances where a player from 2000-present made 21 assists or more. Which number is higher? 13 or 48?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_game.html

I also claimed that there are more assists per game in the 80s and the 90s than today which is fact.

So unless you can re-write history and somehow show me that there are more assists today per game than the 80s and 90s or that 48 < 13, then you don't have a leg to stand on. This isn't a debate. You should treat this thread like you do all my other posts where you read what I write, and simply nod your head in agreement instead of making a foolish mistake of trying to reach for the stars in a half-ass attempt to refute sound logic, which ironically, is exactly what has been attempted here.

Yawn..........:sleeping

[Jameerthefear]

Give me a break with this "equal opportunity" BS!!! Aside from the last 2 years the NBA has been OWNED buy Lebron and Kobe ball!!! And this year even though the Warriors are a good passing team, they still depend on Curry scoring almost 30 a game!!! The Spurs are THE ONLY team that plays with any semblance of equal opportunity offensive distribution and have done it for the last 18 years!

In the 1980's NO championship winning team had a scorer go above 26ppg and the teams had 5 to 7 players in double figures!!! Those were true equal opportunity offense with STARS instead of role players. Where were all the top scorers from the 80's (Jordan, Wilkins, King, Barkley, English, Dantley with Jazz) come May? Out in the first and second rounds!!!

The 80's was the PEAK of team basketball with TRUE PG's leading teams both in fast break and half court situations, looking for the best opportunity for their teammates instead of themselves.

The NBA offenses have gone in the crapper since the death of the low post dominant center and the score first PG's, simple as that. It's 3 pointers or penetration, nothing in between and rare fast break games!

Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis and Baron Davis must be very proud of their bastard children leading the NBA to the present sad state!
If you don't think the Heat moved the ball well and the Mavs before that then I'm not sure what to tell you dude.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Nope... only excuses and poor arguments against it have been made.

90s better era of basketball vs Present day.

:banana:

Not really, you weren't even old enough to watch the 90s

The reason is that there are more assists in the past (or even about the same after pace)is because teams shoot more threes now!

Less threes are needed to match the same amount of points from only twos (As in 2 3s for 6 points vs 3 2s for 6 points), so there are naturally less assists

[Straight_Ballin]

Not really, you weren't even old enough to watch the 90s

The reason is that there are more assists in the past (or even about the same after pace)is because teams shoot more threes now!

Less threes are needed to match the same amount of points from only twos (As in 2 3s for 6 points vs 3 2s for 6 points), so there are naturally less assists

:lol stopped reading after bolded part.

[BigMacAttack]

The two best teams in today's NBA (Warriors and Spurs) run equal opportunity offenses predicated on ball movement, making it hard for one player to rack up a ton of assists. Instead, assists are more evenly distributed.

Ball movement and selfless basketball is promoted more than ever.

This. It is pretty obvious if you think about it. One guy dominating the ball enough to dish 30 assists just doesn't happen in todays nba very often.

[Kvnzhangyay]

:lol stopped reading after bolded part.

Because you know it's right and didn't even bother to disagree?

[livinglegend]

:lol stopped reading after bolded part.

Lucky bastard.
The OWNAGE he posted after that would have probably gave your old ass a heart attack.

[BigMacAttack]

Nope... only excuses and poor arguments against it have been made.

90s better era of basketball vs Present day.

:banana:

Your thread sucks stfu and sit down boy.

[ShawkFactory]

Look at this link and compare games played from 85-99 to games played from 2000 to present day where someone had at least 21 assists. Of the top 61 games in which a player had the most assists, there are only 13 instances where a player from 2000-present made 21 assists or more. Which number is higher? 13 or 48?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_game.html

I also claimed that there are more assists per game in the 80s and the 90s than today which is fact.

So unless you can re-write history and somehow show me that there are more assists today per game than the 80s and 90s or that 48 < 13, then you don't have a leg to stand on. This isn't a debate. You should treat this thread like you do all my other posts where you read what I write, and simply nod your head in agreement instead of making a foolish mistake of trying to reach for the stars in a half-ass attempt to refute sound logic, which ironically, is exactly what has been attempted here.

Yawn..........:sleeping
Literally 60% of those 48 instances of 21 or more assists were either Magic or Stockton. The two greatest passing point guards of all time...pretty much unanimously. That has nothing to do with era. They were the outliers then, just as they would be now...or any era.

And once you adjust for pace, particularly in the sped up 80s and early 90s, assists per game is completely negligible. The only really noticeable different from right now is from 85-94, or since the expansion.

The pace has started to climb back up these past three years. So we'll see what happens and how the game evolves.

Plus, the FGA per game in...lets say 1987 when APG was maxed out was 89. This year so far its 84.

[Straight_Ballin]

This. It is pretty obvious if you think about it. One guy dominating the ball enough to dish 30 assists just doesn't happen in todays nba very often.

All this does is further prove my point! :cheers: Not relying on your facilitator to dish out > 21 assists per game and instead needing to have the ball in your hands more often (to feel that you are getting that equal opportunity) is predicated on selfishness. Everyone in today's era needs to feel like they are in position to have the option to shoot first instead of relying on the facilitator to put them in position to shoot. The facilitator being selfish is the most absurd thing I've ever heard, because the objective of the facilitator is to PASS FIRST, whereas in these "equal opportunity offense" scenarios, the objective is to shoot first, pass 2nd. That's why there are more 3's being taken in today's game, because of that shoot first mentality.


Literally 60% of those 48 instances of 21 or more assists were either Magic or Stockton. The two greatest passing point guards of all time...pretty much unanimously. That has nothing to do with era. They were the outliers then, just as they would be now...or any era.

So if they played in present era we would see them doing the same thing by your logic since they are outliers.

And by that logic, all you do is support my argument that the "equal opportunity offense" theory is bullshit, since by your own admittance if stockton or magic were to be inserted into present day "equal opportunity offenses", there would be more instances on that list of them dropping 21 or more assists while playing in 2000 to present day offenses. Of course they would! Guys like Stockton and Magic who played back then aren't selfish players like the players of today! Keep proving my point!

Welcome to ISH. Where the people trying to argue against your points only further solidify them because said logic is too sound to dispute!

Ether

[ShawkFactory]

All this does is further prove my point! :cheers: Not relying on your facilitator to dish out > 21 assists per game and instead needing to have the ball in your hands more often (to feel that you are getting that equal opportunity) is predicated on selfishness. Everyone in today's era needs to feel like they are in position to have the option to shoot first instead of relying on the facilitator to put them in position to shoot. The facilitator being selfish is the most absurd thing I've ever heard, because the objective of the facilitator is to PASS FIRST, whereas in these "equal opportunity offense" scenarios, the objective is to shoot first, pass 2nd. That's why there are more 3's being taken in today's game, because of that shoot first mentality.



So if they played in present era we would see them doing the same thing by your logic since they are outliers.

And by that logic, all you do is support my argument that the "equal opportunity offense" theory is bullshit, since by your own admittance if stockton or magic were to be inserted into present day "equal opportunity offenses", there would be more instances on that list of them dropping 21 or more assists while playing in 2000 to present day offenses. Of course they would! Guys like Stockton and Magic who played back then aren't selfish players like the players of today! Keep proving my point!

Welcome to ISH. Where the people trying to argue against your points only further solidify them because said logic is too sound to dispute!

Ether
Damn, you're good with irony I'll give you that. Such weird connections you make..

I can't tell if you're fvcking with me or not.