Great PGs carried Dirk Nowitzkis career

[nathanjizzle]

steve nash
jason terry
jason kid
monta ellis*
deron williams
jj barea

what do you guys think?

[TripleA]

The only great point guards on that list are Steve Nash and Jason Kidd.
The rest are above average. Jason Terry and Monta Ellis never made an Allstar team and Deron has been average since leaving Utah.

[TomBrady]

No.

[SCdac]

No, point guards didn't "carry" Dirk's career, and engaging in hyperbole is only going to make people counteract and underrate the PG's he played with. For instance, Jason Kidd was an experienced veteran (hungry for a 1st championship like Dirk) who lead the 2011 Mavs handedly in assists in the playoffs. He also lead in steals and three's made and was a solid defender. But because of threads like this people will refer to him simply as "old and slow". Hyperbole met with more hyperbole

[JohnFreeman]

Don't go after Dirk, you know better than this.

[knicksman]

Rose team is no.2 despite him playing garbage. Goes to show that his mvp is because of stacked team

[SouBeachTalents]

Wow, this is the worst and least accurate thread I've seen in a long time

[ScalsFan21]

No, point guards didn't "carry" Dirk's career, and engaging in hyperbole is only going to make people counteract and underrate the PG's he played with. For instance, Jason Kidd was an experienced veteran (hungry for a 1st championship like Dirk) who lead the 2011 Mavs handedly in assists in the playoffs. He also lead in steals and three's made and was a solid defender. But because of threads like this people will refer to him simply as "old and slow". Hyperbole met with more hyperbole

That's a good point. There are gonna be those who try to downplay Kidd's role in Dirk's ring, and those who still call the 2011 version him a "HOF PG". People don't realize that in most (if not all) cases, there's a middle ground.

A legitimate case can be made though that Dirk has been the best Maverick on the court during every minute he has ever played.

[ShawkFactory]

Holy shit what a reach

[Nash]

steve nash
jason terry
jason kid
monta ellis*
deron williams

what do you guys think?
Nash - not great at that point
kidd - old
monta ellis - lol
deron williams - his greatness is a few years behind him

[Cone]

i think youre a ****ing retard.

btw, if he played w d-rose, rose would be rock bottom at this list considering his impact is next to nothing

[Stout]

steve nash
jason terry
jason kid
monta ellis*
deron williams

what do you guys think?
:roll:

[buddha]

just because Karl Malone played with Stockton doesn't mean Malone isn't a great player.

[zizozain]

in b4 dmavs with 50 posts

[oarabbus]

OP wants people to say Rose is better than Dirk :oldlol:

[SCdac]

That's a good point. There are gonna be those who try to downplay Kidd's role in Dirk's ring, and those who still call the 2011 version him a "HOF PG". People don't realize that in most (if not all) cases, there's a middle ground.

A legitimate case can be made though that Dirk has been the best Maverick on the court during every minute he has ever played.

Idk about that one. He wasn't ROTY or anything or an AS his rookie season. Not the MVP Dirk we witnessed. I get your point though. From about 3 seasons in there's probably some truth to that, but I'd be tempted to take prime Mike Finley over rookie year-Dirk. And the "every minute" part of your comment is vague. There's a difference between performing better and being better (but that itself is murky). I know about a year or two ago Monta Ellis looked like their offensive leader at times. But Dirk is in the latter part of his career, so that's going to happen.

[ShawkFactory]

Also, why mention Williams?

Are you so impressed with Dirk's play at such on old age that you feel like they'll make it somewhere this year?

[Goofsta Knicca]

A simple country bumpkin ass fella recollects playing against a young Dirk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnjRSVSRjeE

[dhsilv]

steve nash
jason terry
jason kid
monta ellis*
deron williams

what do you guys think?

Did you just call Jason Terry a point guard....and a great one? You called Monta Ellis a great....sorry point guard? Deron Williams....is good even ok?

I think if you're drunk I want to know what you're having. If you're on drugs, I should tell my friends, you've found something special.

[feyki]

Also Devin Harris , lol :D .

[ScalsFan21]

Idk about that one. He wasn't ROTY or anything or an AS his rookie season. Not the MVP Dirk we witnessed. I get your point though. From about 3 seasons in there's probably some truth to that, but I'd be tempted to take prime Mike Finley over rookie year-Dirk. And the "every minute" part of your comment is vague. There's a difference between performing better and being better (but that itself is murky). I know about a year or two ago Monta Ellis looked like their offensive leader at times. But Dirk is in the latter part of his career, so that's going to happen.

I guess Shawn Bradley could be thrown into that conversation too.

By "better player" though I pretty much just meant being the guy who over long stretches would be the biggest positive impact on the court. There were definitely times when he was either hobbled by injury or deferring to an extent where he wasn't playing like the "best player on the court" but I think he was always the guy capable of the highest level of play. MAYBE even during that rookie year, though I'd agree it's highly debatable. Was probably a bad choice of words.

Still, Dirk > Rose by a Grand Canyon-sized chasm all time which I'm guessing really pisses Nathan off.

[dhsilv]

That's a good point. There are gonna be those who try to downplay Kidd's role in Dirk's ring, and those who still call the 2011 version him a "HOF PG". People don't realize that in most (if not all) cases, there's a middle ground.

A legitimate case can be made though that Dirk has been the best Maverick on the court during every minute he has ever played.

No case can be made that Dirk was better than finley in his rookie year, none zero not even up for debate.

[dhsilv]

Also Devin Harris , lol :D .

at least he's a point guard...

[Smoke117]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AJBx8DUvhHI/UD3wZ7siBDI/AAAAAAAAAGU/Ph7JstFExwE/s1600/The+Wire+-+Bunk+Moreland+Shaking+Head.gif

Nate continues being a retard...

[StephHamann]

steve nash
jason terry
jason kid
monta ellis*
deron williams

what do you guys think?

NIce list of players that are better than Derrick Rose

[Real Men Wear Green]

steve nash
jason terry
jason kid
monta ellis*
deron williams

what do you guys think?
I think it's incredible that anyone could think Kidd carried Nowizki.

[nathanjizzle]

All im saying is that above average to great point guards have been crucial to the mavericks success, in the years they've had success. jason terry averaged 18 points at one point, but hes supposed to be a scrub that dirk carried?

[DMAVS41]

All im saying is that above average to great point guards have been crucial to the mavericks success, in the years they've had success. jason terry averaged 18 points at one point, but hes supposed to be a scrub that dirk carried?

Jason Terry was a sg...that happened to be a good pick and roll player because of his elite jump shooting.

Nash was elite...at least by the 01 season. From 01 to 04...the Mavs had the following offenses in the league:

4th
1st
1st
1st

Jason Kidd was a good, but not great player by the time he joined the Mavs. He actually was old and slow, but also happened to be still very good. Especially in terms of managing the games and defending...two key aspects to winning.

Ellis was good, but not elite...same thing with Deron.

Carried Dirk's career? Certainly pg play next to Dirk is very important. He opens up the game so much and a good pg/guard is very important to getting the most out of the offense in terms of the pick and pop and rim runs from a center.

None of the guys you listed are scrubs, but none of them, outside of Nash...should be considered a "great player" during the time they spent in Dallas.

Dirk just never had great help outside a couple years of his career. I know that reality really hurts your agenda, but it's the truth. Dirk just never got carried like other players with great help did.

Mavs without Dirk for his career? -3.2 points per 100 possessions

Bulls without Rose for his career? +3.5 points per 100 possession

That elite help for Rose....some of the best help any star player has had in terms of on/off rating....which I know you love.

Must really suck to be so beaten down that you have to resort to making random Dirk threads.

[nathanjizzle]

Mavs without Dirk for his career? -3.2 points per 100 possessions

Bulls without Rose for his career? +3.5 points per 100 possession

That elite help for Rose....some of the best help any star player has had in terms of on/off rating....which I know you love.



elite help :roll: so you go from saying the east is completely garbage in those seasons, but if said team without rose goes .50 for the season in the garbage east, they are elite help? :lol that contradiction. Look, carlos boozer was the best help rose had in 2010-11-12. HAHA. and forget your donkey stats, on and off? how about rose going 30-10 in clutch games, was he supposedly off the court in those last 5 minutes.? HAHA IDIOT.

a dirk led team cannot be successful without a good/great PG. give him your run of the mill pg and his team is mediocre. most likely missing the playoffs too.

[DMAVS41]

elite help :roll: so you go from saying the east is completely garbage in those seasons, but if said team without rose goes goes .50 for the season in the garbage east, they are elite help? :lol that contradiction.

Any help that can have that good of a differential without their star in the regular season for a career is elite level bench help.

Has nothing to do with East or West....

There is no other way around it...for winning in the regular season, not necessarily the playoffs, Rose has had elite help overall in his career.

[DMAVS41]

elite help :roll: so you go from saying the east is completely garbage in those seasons, but if said team without rose goes .50 for the season in the garbage east, they are elite help? :lol that contradiction. Look, carlos boozer was the best help rose had in 2010-11-12. HAHA

a dirk led team cannot be successful without a good/great PG. give him your run of the mill pg and his team is mediocre.


Is Barea a good/great PG?

[DMAVS41]

Idk about that one. He wasn't ROTY or anything or an AS his rookie season. Not the MVP Dirk we witnessed. I get your point though. From about 3 seasons in there's probably some truth to that, but I'd be tempted to take prime Mike Finley over rookie year-Dirk. And the "every minute" part of your comment is vague. There's a difference between performing better and being better (but that itself is murky). I know about a year or two ago Monta Ellis looked like their offensive leader at times. But Dirk is in the latter part of his career, so that's going to happen.


Tempted? Finley was easily better than rookie Dirk. Rookie Dirk was not a good player at all.

[nathanjizzle]

[/B]

Is Barea a good/great PG?

as a bench pg hes good/great. hes never really had a consistent starting role.

[DMAVS41]

as a bench pg hes good/great.

Playing next to Dirk? Yep.

Playing on the average team? Nope.

So good he couldn't secure playing time on the Wolves and was waived...that elite pg play carrying Dirk.

I want you to think about this and listen. Since the 2004 season...Dirk has not had a teammate that was as good Jimmy Butler currently is. Think about that...hell, I'm not even sure he's had a teammate as good as Pau currently is.

[nathanjizzle]

Playing next to Dirk? Yep.

Playing on the average team? Nope.

So good he couldn't secure playing time on the Wolves and was waived...that elite pg play carrying Dirk.

I want you to think about this and listen. Since the 2004 season...Dirk has not had a teammate that is as good Jimmy Butler currently is. Think about that...hell, I'm not even sure he's had a teammate as good as Pau currently is.

hes had the same numbers and starting role in minnesota as dallas :confusedshrug: but why would you correlate that to playing with dirk and not being in a new environment? :lol common man. an jj comes of the bench, most of his time played is without dirk. JJ has had some great games this year some of his best and that is with dirk at his worst. so its absurd to say theres a correlation.

[iamgine]

Ehh trolling get this many responses.

Successful troll is successful.

[nathanjizzle]

barea put up 36 points on 65 percent shooting and 11 assists in a game this season. hes a starter on most bad teams. dirk definitely needed great pgs.

[ISHGoat]

Nathan just stop.

[DMAVS41]

hes had the same numbers and starting role in minnesota as dallas :confusedshrug: but why would you correlate that to playing with dirk and not being in a new environment? :lol common man. an jj comes of the bench, most of his time played is without dirk. JJ has had some great games this year some of his best and that is with dirk at his worst. so its absurd to say theres a correlation.

If you can't see the difference in Barea from Minny to Dallas in terms of his impact...you simply don't watch the games at all...or don't know what you are talking about.

His efficiency took a noticeable dip in Minny...

I'm not talking about his numbers though. He's a player that shouldn't be graded harshly on his overall numbers as he's an energy/spurt player. Barea's overall numbers are irrelevant as they are almost assuredly not be great given the role he plays and how he plays.

So i'm confused...how is Barea a great bench pg if you are going by the numbers?

[DMAVS41]

barea put up 36 points on 65 percent shooting and 11 assists in a game this season. hes a starter on most bad teams. dirk definitely needed great pgs.

and if he went to those teams....he wouldn't be good enough to be a starter.

you are making my point for me you clown.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk hasn't had a player as good as Jimmy Butler since the 2004 season...

Those stacked Bulls around Rose...elite help...

[nathanjizzle]

If you can't see the difference in Barea from Minny to Dallas in terms of his impact...you simply don't watch the games at all...or don't know what you are talking about.

His efficiency took a noticeable dip in Minny...

I'm not talking about his numbers though. He's a player that shouldn't be graded harshly on his overall numbers as he's an energy/spurt player. Barea's overall numbers are irrelevant as they are almost assuredly not be great given the role he plays and how he plays.

So i'm confused...how is Barea a great bench pg if you are going by the numbers?

any pg that can come off the bench, give you 10 points and 4 assists in 20 minutes is a good/great pg for that role. its a luxury for dirk to have him on the team.

[DMAVS41]

any pg that can come off the bench, give you 10 points and 4 assists in 20 minutes is a good/great pg for that role

I know, as a Rose fan, you don't value efficiency, but not at 50% or sub 50% TS...while also being poor defender....which is what he was in Minny.

There is no world in which JJ is a good/great pg unless he's playing in a very specific role....and even then I'm being very generous just to appease you because I know something is wrong with you today

If I was being more reality driven and harsh....I'd take a much tougher line about how good Barea actually is

[brain drain]

any pg that can come off the bench, give you 10 points and 4 assists in 20 minutes is a good/great pg for that role. its a luxury for dirk to have him on the team.

Yeah. But the reason Barea works well on the Mavs is because of Dirk's spacing. Because Dirk pulls out bigs from underneath the basket, Barea has open lanes. Without that, he's half the player he is in Dallas.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk hasn't had a player as good as Jimmy Butler since the 2004 season...

Those stacked Bulls around Rose...elite help...


This seems like it's being avoided.

That is obvious, but I guess the interesting question is...was Terry/Howard/Tyson ever better than Pau is right now? It's very close.

[nathanjizzle]

This seems like it's being avoided.

That is obvious, but I guess the interesting question is...was Terry/Howard/Tyson ever better than Pau is right now? It's very close.

what does rose and his help have to do with dirk? and what does butlers emergence as a good player this season and last season have to do with roses entire career with the bulls? bulls have yet to have done anything in the post season with butler so whats the point you are making? does roses success in 2010, 11 and 12 is owed to butler when he was non existent? :lol obviously rose has much help this season, yet the team is as only successful as rose can take them, once again.

[DMAVS41]

what does rose and his help have to do with dirk? and what does butlers emergence as a good player this season and last season have to do with roses entire career with the bulls? bulls have yet to have done anything in the post season with butler so whats the point you are making? does roses success in 2010, 11 and 12 is owed to butler when he was non existent? :lol

you are talking about help....and I think it's interesting...that's all.

we don't need to talk about Rose though...we all know he was carried by an elite defense/rebounding team with an elite bench....hence the insane scoring differentials without Rose playing.

doesn't mean rose wasn't great back then, he was, but he had a great team around him in the regular season

it's old hat at this point...just like you

i used to enjoy destroying you...now I don't feel good about it...i'm worried about you more than usual

[brain drain]

And as for the whole topic: It's rubbish. Dirk has played in a few different systems, and he has played well in all of them.
- At first, Don Nelsons high-tempo run and gun with Steve Nash at point and a lot of 3 pointers.
- Then under braindead Avery Johnson, the Mavs played a slow pace (27th in 2005-06), low-assist pound-it-out ISO game (last in the league IIRC in apg in 05/06 IIRC, Terry had the highest apg on the team with 3.8) - and Dirk was still thriving, a legitimate MVP candidate and the Mavs wer #1 in ORTG.
- Well, and then he won the title in 2011 with Carlisle as coach and Kidd at pg.

So, sure, a good PG hurts no one, Dirk included. But as the 05-07 years proved, Dirk could get along just fine and even play MVP caliber basketball and compete for a title without being set up by a point guard.

[Gileraracer]

discredit Dirk will not make DRose look good out there :lol

[nathanjizzle]

doesn't mean rose wasn't great back then, he was, but he had a great team around him in the regular season



this is the same contradiction ive already pointed out. you say the east was completely garbage, but then how do you claim it was a great team when the team without rose was only winning .54 in this garbage conference without him? in your own words, this .54 team in the east would be .20 in the west and they are still considered a "great team"? are they garbage or are they great and which argument do you want to retract?. donkey. :roll:

[creepingdeath]

Don't forget to add the mighty Derron Collison and Mike James combo to that list.

[DMAVS41]

this is the same contradiction ive already pointed out. you say the east was completely garbage, but then how do you claim it was a great team when the team without rose was only winning .54 in this garbage conference without him? in your own words, this .54 team in the east would be .20 in the west and they are still considered a "great team"? please explain yourself. :roll:

you don't judge a team solely on how well they play without their star, but I think your numbers are off....didn't they go 18-9 without Rose in 2012?

Or are you just talking about the 13 Bulls? I think the 13 Bulls were a worse team than the 11/12 versions. But winning 58% of your games without your star is hardly a sign of a weak supporting cast regardless....neither is winning a playoff series as well.

I mean....you perform like that without your star...and then have differentials of:

+6.1 points per 100 without Rose in 11
+8.7 points per 100 without Rose in 12

Kind of paints an obvious picture....those teams were really freaking good.

Points of reference....best differential Dirk's team has ever had:

+2.2 points per 100 without Dirk in 15

[nathanjizzle]

didn't they go 18-9 without Rose in 2012?


yeah but they went something like 27 -7 with him. :lol destroyed.

[DMAVS41]

yeah but they went something like 27 -7 with him. :lol destroyed.

destroyed? how?

of course they were much better with Rose...he was by far their best player and a great player in 11/12 when he was on the court.

I'd expect him to add roughly 15 to 20 wins to that team.

:confusedshrug:

[nathanjizzle]

destroyed? how?

of course they were much better with Rose...he was by far their best player and a great player in 11/12 when he was on the court.

I'd expect him to add roughly 15 to 20 wins to that team.

:confusedshrug:

tell me this one. this was without rose.
+6.1 points per 100 without Rose in 11
+8.7 points per 100 without Rose in 12

what was the points per 100 with rose? and does it correlate to the record difference with and without rose? i doubt it.

[ISHGoat]

tell me this one. this was without rose.
+6.1 points per 100 without Rose in 11
+8.7 points per 100 without Rose in 12

what was the points per 100 with rose? and does it correlate to the record difference with and without rose? i doubt it.

Look here idiot: points per posession = sample size in the thousands. Win loss record = sample size of 20.

Clearly the PPP differential should be much more telling of a player's impact than w/l. Bulls could have bukakked opponents by 30 points in wins without rose and lose by a posession in games without rose, leading to a seemingly pedestrian w/l record but a beast PPP diffrrential.

[HurricaneKid]

steve nash
jason terry
jason kid
monta ellis*
deron williams
jj barea

what do you guys think?

JJ Barea is a GREAT PG. Now I've heard everything.

DWill is a great PG this year? Because this is their first year together. And DWill isn't a top 25 PG this year.

Kidd was nearly 35 when he joined Dirk's side.

Monta. Great PG. Wow. First off, he isn't a PG. Secondly, since his 21 yr old season Monta has not won a single playoff game EXCEPT with Dirk.

Nash was good, but again, this is pre-Suns Nash.

So he played with one GOOD, not GREAT PG during the entirety of his 18 year career. Worse yet, the one he did play with was gone before his 25th BDay.

This thread is criminally underrated for being a laughingstock.

[nathanjizzle]

Look here idiot: points per posession = sample size in the thousands. Win loss record = sample size of 20.

Clearly the PPP differential should be much more telling of a player's impact than w/l. Bulls could have bukakked opponents by 30 points in wins without rose and lose by a posession in games without rose, leading to a seemingly pedestrian w/l record but a beast PPP diffrrential.

thats idiotic. to suggest a ppp differential is a more telling stat than record differences in terms of overall impact is idiotic and stat donkeyish. you dont understand the other factors that go into ppp, it involves the other 9 players on the court and the other 12 players on the bench

[ISHGoat]

thats idiotic. to suggest a ppp differential is a more telling stat than record differences in terms of overall impact is idiotic and stat donkeyish. you dont understand the other factors that go into ppp, it involves the other 9 players on the court and the other 12 players on the bench

Go look at the point per 100 differential of every team in the league right now. I bet you it has dam near perfect correlation with our perception of those respective teams' strength.

[nathanjizzle]

Go look at the point per 100 differential of every team in the league right now. I bet you it has dam near perfect correlation with our perception of those respective teams' strength.

thats a different dynamic.:biggums: in that case you are comparing a team with a team. in the case i am talking about it is comparing a player to his teammates in terms of impact in wins and loses, which isnt a reliable stat and ive already proven it isnt in terms of record difference with and without player.

[DMAVS41]

tell me this one. this was without rose.
+6.1 points per 100 without Rose in 11
+8.7 points per 100 without Rose in 12

what was the points per 100 with rose? and does it correlate to the record difference with and without rose? i doubt it.

the bulls weren't capable of having those differentials without Rose playing....this should be rather obvious and doesn't need to be explained.

news flash...great star players really are important to teams built around them. they add double digit wins to teams.

like...really?

[AirFederer]

Drizzle is a disgrace to Bulls fans, getting destroyed on a day-lyyyyyyy basis!:lol

[Papaya Petee]

I can't comprehend how Nathan still continues to attack Dmavs when he's shit on him over 100 times already.

[ballup]

Raymond Felton getting snubbed. :kobe:

[kentatm]

But because of threads like this people will refer to him simply as "old and slow". Hyperbole met with more hyperbole

But he was old and slow

That's why when he was in man defense he ended up defending SGs and SFs more often than PGs. If he was on the PG it was usually due to his place within the zone defense. He was pretty solid at help D in the zone which made up for his inability to stay in front of the quicker guards.

On offense he mostly camped out at the 3 point line and directed traffic w/the occasional post up on small guards. He rarely penetrated and got most of his dimes from other players making cuts into the space created by Dirk or from pick and pops w/Dirk and Terry. I would estimate that well over 50% of his points were from wide open jumpers due to teams basically ignoring him on defense.

He wasn't a bad player but he wasn't anywhere close to his former all star form either.

[DMAVS41]

But he was old and slow

That's why when he was in man defense he ended up defending SGs and SFs more often than PGs. If he was on the PG it was usually due to his place within the zone defense. He was pretty solid at help D in the zone which made up for his inability to stay in front of the quicker guards.

On offense he mostly camped out at the 3 point line and directed traffic w/the occasional post up on small guards. He rarely penetrated and got most of his dimes from other players making cuts into the space created by Dirk or from pick and pops w/Dirk and Terry. I would estimate that well over 50% of his points were from wide open jumpers due to teams basically ignoring him on defense.

He wasn't a bad player but he wasn't anywhere close to his former all star form either.

Exactly this.

[AirFederer]

thats idiotic. to suggest a ppp differential is a more telling stat than record differences in terms of overall impact is idiotic and stat donkeyish. you dont understand the other factors that go into ppp, it involves the other 9 players on the court and the other 12 players on the bench

https://media.giphy.com/media/EgkNhBeY289z2/giphy.gif

[TaLvsCuaL]

OP parents are cousins