Better slasher to the basket--Wade or MJ?

[sportjames23]

Wade is the GOAT slasher


Not the GOAT slasher but he's up there


I'm curious too...tell me someone better at slashing to the basket with more athleticism and skill than he has had? Wade has pretty easily been the best slasher in the league during his era...so who is better before him? There really isn't anyone you can name with his mix of athleticism, talent, and skill that has been better at getting to the basket. And no...this isn't me being "stan"...I'm a fan, not a stan. He's only my 3rd favorite player all time after Pip and Ray. He's just easily the best the off dribbler player the last 20 years, period.


I mean, Pip did play with a guy known for his attacks on the basket. :confusedshrug:

[bdreason]

Wade was a great slasher, but MJ was just a flat-out superior athlete.

[ShawkFactory]

Wade is the best slasher since.

[dubeta]

The guy that didn't go 1-9


And I'm not even a Wade fan

[plowking]

You know what I don't get? Jordan in his prime was averaging around 52% from the field, correct?

We're told he was the best slasher, and best midrange player ever. Yet, it doesn't really add up. How is a guy that is so good at both, rounding out at 52%? We've been told guys like Wade and Lebron aren't as good at either facet, yet during their peaks they were shooting similar, if not better numbers from the field percentage wise (Lebron). So either they are in fact equal or better at one facet, or one part of Jordan's game is greatly overstated.

We've been told on here several times that Jordan is as good a finisher around the ring as Bron for example, yet they both average the same FG% for their careers, and we're told Bron has no midrange game. Well then Bron must be the better at ring finisher. Same thing goes when the midrange game was being discussed, and Dirk was brought up as someone who has a better midrange game. Again we were told MJ was better from midrange, but again, the numbers have to go one way or the other.

[dubeta]

You know what I don't get? Jordan in his prime was averaging around 52% from the field, correct?

We're told he was the best slasher, and best midrange player ever. Yet, it doesn't really add up. How is a guy that is so good at both, rounding out at 52%? We've been told guys like Wade and Lebron aren't as good at either facet, yet during their peaks they were shooting similar, if not better numbers from the field percentage wise (Lebron). So either they are in fact equal or better at one facet, or one part of Jordan's game is greatly overstated.

We've been told on here several times that Jordan is as good a finisher around the ring as Bron for example, yet they both average the same FG% for their careers, and we're told Bron has no midrange game. Well then Bron must be the better at ring finisher. Same thing goes when the midrange game was being discussed, and Dirk was brought up as someone who has a better midrange game. Again we were told MJ was better from midrange, but again, the numbers have to go one way or the other.

And LeBron also averages far more 3 point attempts a game which should in theory reduce his FG%






Peak LeBron was > 60% from 2 point range, while peak MJ was 53-54% from 2 point range

[Young X]

You know what I don't get? Jordan in his prime was averaging around 52% from the field, correct?

We're told he was the best slasher, and best midrange player ever. Yet, it doesn't really add up. How is a guy that is so good at both, rounding out at 52%? We've been told guys like Wade and Lebron aren't as good at either facet, yet during their peaks they were shooting similar, if not better numbers from the field percentage wise (Lebron). So either they are in fact equal or better at one facet, or one part of Jordan's game is greatly overstated.

We've been told on here several times that Jordan is as good a finisher around the ring as Bron for example, yet they both average the same FG% for their careers, and we're told Bron has no midrange game. Well then Bron must be the better at ring finisher. Same thing goes when the midrange game was being discussed, and Dirk was brought up as someone who has a better midrange game. Again we were told MJ was better from midrange, but again, the numbers have to go one way or the other.Transition buckets.

[Young X]

Also, you have to account for volume.

Jordan was shooting 23-24 times per night.

It's harder to maintain a high % while taking 6 more shots per game.

Not to mention not playing with another elite offensive threat who can take defensive attention and pressure away from you.

[plowking]

Also, you have to account for volume.

Jordan was shooting 23-24 times per night.

It's harder to maintain a high % while taking 6 more shots per game.

Not to mention not playing with another elite offensive threat who can take defensive attention and pressure away from you.

I don't agree with your point about transition buckets, since Jordan was the best in the league at that as well, along with Barkley during his time. Much like any of the top scorers, Lebron and Durant have been the runaway fast break kings from what I remember.

Agree with you on the point of higher volumes make the stats less volatile, though Bron himself is shooting 20 shots a game over his prime. Pretty sure Wade was at that too. Nowitzki slightly lower, but there would still be enough room there for it to be noticeable.

Even at 24 shots a game, the difference between making half your shots, and one extra, is more than 4%. That is plenty for it to be visible, and not just down to higher volumes.

EDIT: Just for examples sake, I remember someone found a link that brokedown all the footage available on Jordan in his 96 season I think it was... Came up with something like 48% from midrange, over something like half the games that season. Obviously the footage was from more of his better games if anything, so I suggested that his midrange game would more than likely round off somewhere at 45% when you factor in shockers and less than ideal games. But because ISH is ISH, you get called an idiot for such a suggestion.

[3ball]

You know what I don't get? Jordan in his prime was averaging around 52% from the field, correct?

We're told he was the best slasher, and best midrange player ever. Yet, it doesn't really add up. How is a guy that is so good at both, rounding out at 52%?


His at-rim finishing efficiency wasn't as high as today's player.. No one's was back then.

That's what happens when defenders don't have to guard the 3-point line - they guard 2-pointers and the paint better - a cursory glance at 80's and 90's footage showing 4 and 5 defenders WAITING in the paint (not coming to help from outside the paint) confirms this.

But carry on..

[Young X]

I don't agree with your point about transition buckets, since Jordan was the best in the league at that as well, along with Barkley during his time. Much like any of the top scorers, Lebron and Durant have been the runaway fast break kings from what I remember.

Agree with you on the point of higher volumes make the stats less volatile, though Bron himself is shooting 20 shots a game over his prime. Pretty sure Wade was at that too. Nowitzki slightly lower, but there would still be enough room there for it to be noticeable.

Even at 24 shots a game, the difference between making half your shots, and one extra, is more than 4%. That is plenty for it to be visible, and not just down to higher volumes.Nah, Jordan was great in transition but he wasn't a beast like Lebron is or Magic. Those 2 definitely took advantage more in transition because their combination of size and speed is/was unreal.

Jordan was more of a halfcourt player than both although he was great in the open court as well.

When Bron and Wade were taking 19/20+ shots a night what were they shooting? 48-51%. Right around the same %'s MJ shot at but at even lower volume.

Basically what I'm saying is you can't compare MJ's %'s to Bron and Wade straight up because they put themsleves in better position to have high percentages when they teamed up. MJ carried a much bigger load scoring wise.

[3ball]

His at-rim finishing efficiency wasn't as high as today's player.. No one's was back then.

That's what happens when defenders don't have to guard the 3-point line - they guard 2-pointers and the paint better - a cursory glance at 80's and 90's footage showing 4 and 5 defenders WAITING in the paint (not coming to help from outside the paint) confirms this.



^^^ This isn't the full story - sure, you didn't have guys finishing 75-80% at the rim like in today's wide open paint... But the factor that affects the equation the most, is that the constant glut of defenders always waiting in the paint meant guys simply couldn't get in there as often.

The proportion of at-rim shots was much lower - after all, what is Jordan supposed to do here - run THROUGH defenders that are standing there???... Obviously, he has no choice but to pull-up for midrange, which was a MUCH higher proportion of everyone's shot allocation:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif\


The hand-checking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu59yf3S3s8&t=1m37s) also prevented penetration and forced midrange pull-ups.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nah, Jordan was great in transition but he wasn't a beast like Lebron is or Magic. Those 2 definitely took advantage more in transition because their combination of size and speed is/was unreal.

Jordan was more of a halfcourt player than both although he was great in the open court as well.

When Bron and Wade were taking 19/20+ shots a night what were they shooting? 48-51%. Right around the same %'s MJ shot at but at even lower volume.

Basically what I'm saying is you can't compare MJ's %'s to Bron and Wade straight up because they put themsleves in better position to have high percentages when they teamed up. MJ carried a much bigger load scoring wise.

Too bad rep is no longer available, this is a really astute post.

:applause:

[3ball]

Basically what I'm saying is you can't compare MJ's %'s to Bron and Wade straight up because they put themsleves in better position to have high percentages when they teamed up. MJ carried a much bigger load scoring wise.


Are you saying MJ had lower efficiency than Wade and Lebron?... Jordan had higher efficiency on higher volume - he had higher FG%, TS and ORtg - those are all the efficiency measures.

Wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan DID (see the stats below).

If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:.... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg


What am I missing

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Nah, Jordan was great in transition but he wasn't a beast like Lebron is or Magic. Those 2 definitely took advantage more in transition because their combination of size and speed is/was unreal.



:whatever: Lebron might catch more alley-oops and he gets a lot of assisted dunks in transition, but he can't make any of these unassisted, transition plays:


https://media.giphy.com/media/QTpn98wxMZIhW/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jKb0_s.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/A8fnJo.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/Nbigf7.gif



Here's MJ's versions of Lebron's Damon Jones dunk - MJ takes off from WAY further, gets up higher and his is nastier:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/cWfL-D.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/MQFTyzVMwRvig/giphy.gif



And here's an assisted transition play that only MJ could do:


https://media.giphy.com/media/2zr5sQeFDKFJm/giphy.gif


Do you realize that MJ could jog up to the FT line and double-pump with ease?... How could he not be a beast in transition?.. Btw, imagine if we had these in 1080 HD... Good lord
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[oarabbus]

3ball, is there ANYTHING LeBron does better than Jordan? (besides losing finals)


Also Dr. J has done that play that "only MJ can do" in your last gif. In fact JR Smith did it as well, both as a layup AND as a reverse dunk.

[3ball]

3ball, is there ANYTHING LeBron does better than Jordan? (besides losing finals)


Catch alley-oops in transition... fill the lane





Also Dr. J has done that play that "only MJ can do" in your last gif. In fact JR Smith did it as well, both as a layup AND as a reverse dunk.


Dr. J might've done something similar...

But JR Smith - no way - did you see where MJ takes off from - he takes off from one side and lands on the other side... JR can only dream of doing that - trust me.

[3ball]

you can't compare MJ's %'s to Bron and Wade straight up because they put themsleves in better position to have high percentages when they teamed up.



MJ has higher FG%, TS%, and ORtg than Lebron and Wade in playoffs.. MJ also leads them in all categories for RS, except Lebron has 1.1% higher TS.. Of course, Jordan's superior efficiency came on much higher volume - MJ was the most efficient high volume shooter of all time.



Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG


Regular Season:

Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:...... 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:.... 1975
George Gervin:. 1982
Kobe Bryant:.... 2006
Elgin Baylor:.... 1963
Tiny Archibald:. 1973
Dominique:...... 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan:..... 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:.......... 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:.......... 1974, 1975
George Gervin:....... 1975, 1982
Jerry West:............ 1966
Rick Barry:............ 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:.. 1995
Kobe Bryant:.......... 2007
Dominique:............ 1988
Allen Iverson:......... 2005
Kareem Jabbar:...... 1975


* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career


Notice that Lebron is not on the list - the 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume playoffs and we saw what happened when the high volume (27 fga) forced him to stray from his normal diet of 3-pointers and layups - he shot an abysmal 41%.. Unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume or require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.

In the Finals, he only shot 39% - it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming.. They only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team) (see 3rd paragraph in section on Curry for double-teaming data).. Compare that to MJ, where his efficient high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as a standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too..

But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the efficient high volume must be achieved within the team concept.. Only 2 players have reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25 shot attempts on 45% during a championship playoff run): MJ did it 4 times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.

Now lets look at Lebron - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan DID (see the stats below).

If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:.... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg


Considering the #2 thru #4 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is at 43.3 points, which far above the pack and in another tier - MJ simply did more (higher volume) while still maintaining equal or better efficiency.
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[Smoke117]

1-9...

But who cares? We're arguing over a silly ****ing basketball game that only matters to the life of some silly c@nt like 3ball. I don't have the time or patience for this bullshit. I'm may be a ****ing loser, but I'm not this far gone.

[3ball]

1-9...

But who cares? We're arguing over a silly ****ing basketball game that only matters to the life of some silly c@nt like 3ball. I don't have the time or patience for this bullshit. I'm may be a ****ing loser, but I'm not this far gone.



I just post the facts - the game has gone from assists looking unpredictable in ACTUAL traffic like this:


https://media.giphy.com/media/3YC4o6djpcCXe/giphy.gif



To most assists looking predictable and basic, yet still getting praise like it's a good pass:


https://media.giphy.com/media/cYI3EuB3U9OJW/giphy.gif


Spacing makes passing easier, and also boring.. The focus on 3-point shooting places offensive players behind the 3-point line, so that's where they're assisted, which makes the assists more predictable boring - how many assists does Draymond accumulate just by making basic chest pass to 3-point shooter????

It took me less than 1 minute to find that highlight because most assists in today's game are like that - basic as **** - I just clicked on the first Draymond video I saw... It would take me 30 seconds to find another.. Compare today's basic chest passes to the unpredictable threaded needles of previous eras... :rolleyes:... Night and day.

But to each his own - I can't knock you for liking this kind of pass below - Woohooo, yeah baby - what a pass!!!


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-03-2016/b3uIr6.gif

[Smoke117]

I just post the facts - the game has gone from assists looking unpredictable in ACTUAL traffic like this:


https://media.giphy.com/media/3YC4o6djpcCXe/giphy.gif



To most assists looking predictable and basic, yet still getting praise like it's a good pass:


https://media.giphy.com/media/cYI3EuB3U9OJW/giphy.gif


Spacing makes passing easier, and also boring.. The focus on 3-point shooting places offensive players behind the 3-point line, so that's where they're assisted, which makes the assists more predictable boring - how many assists does Draymond accumulate just by making basic chest pass to 3-point shooter????

It took me less than 1 minute to find that highlight because most assists in today's game are like that - basic as **** - I just clicked on the first Draymond video I saw... It would take me 30 seconds to find another.. Compare today's basic chest passes to the unpredictable threaded needles of previous eras... :rolleyes:... Night and day.

But to each his own - I can't knock you for liking this kind of pass below - Woohooo, yeah baby - what a pass!!!


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-03-2016/b3uIr6.gif


1-9

Curry >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ

He'd never be so pathetic without the best player he ever played with.

[f0und]

jordan is a better slasher. wade is second only to him.

jordan is my alltime favorite player. so its only natural that wade is my second favorite because his play style is the closest thing to jordan.

[Dragonyeuw]

They had different slashing styles. MJ's was driven first and foremost by his incredible first step. Wade moreso by his dribble and may have been a little shiftier footwork-wise with the euro-step and things like that. I think MJ was better able to stop on a dime and consistently shoot mid-range shots, so you were always thinking of that as much as worrying about him getting to the rim. As pure slasher, it's 1 and 1A in my book, slightly in favor of Jordan but you really can't go wrong either way. I think they're easily the two best slashing SGs.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan is the better slasher, with a faster first step. Wade is the better dribbler, who used his crossovers to get by his defenders.


Always loved the Wade Windmill Crossover: https://youtu.be/ZPYVerGacpc
Very unique move.

Jordan's ability to change his shot at the basket is what separates him from everyone ever. His reverse layups are better than most players dunks.


Honorable mention to Allen Iverson too.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan reverse layups (https://youtu.be/7vBc395dSg4) are mesmerizing.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Playoff games with 20+ FTA (free throw attempts)


Jordan - 6 games --- (high's of 28 & 27)

------

Pierce - 3 games --- (high's of 21 & 20)

------

Wade - 2 games --- (high's of 25 & 21)

Lebron - 2 games --- (high's of 24 & 24)

------

Kobe - 1 game
Iverson - 1 game
Rose - 1 game
Magic - 1 game
Harden - 1 game
Melo - 1 game
Kevin Johnson - 1 game

Thats the full list of perimeter guys (left out C's & PF's).

_________________________________


Funny how only Wade got called out for having some big FTA playoff games... double standard.

[Dresta]

I think Wade had the better dribble moves to get there, and they were both amazing at finishing around the rim, but MJ was more athletic and longer.

[catch24]

Probably the same tier, but finishing is another story.

No perimeter player in history finished at the ring like Jordan. LeBron is def up there, but Jordan was more creative with his improvisation.

[Wade's Rings]

Playoff games with 20+ FTA (free throw attempts)


Jordan - 6 games --- (high's of 28 & 27)

------

Pierce - 3 games --- (high's of 21 & 20)

------

Wade - 2 games --- (high's of 25 & 21)

Lebron - 2 games --- (high's of 24 & 24)

------

Kobe - 1 game
Iverson - 1 game
Rose - 1 game
Magic - 1 game
Harden - 1 game
Melo - 1 game
Kevin Johnson - 1 game

Thats the full list of perimeter guys (left out C's & PF's).

_________________________________


Funny how only Wade got called out for having some big FTA playoff games... double standard.


In the 89 playoffs from gm 3 vs the Knicks to gm 6 vs the Pistons Jordan avg 15 FT's per game, including a game where he shot 28 FT's, 6 more than the ENTIRE Knick team :eek:.

The bolded is one of the main arguments I hear as evidence of the 06 Finals gm 5 being rigged.

So was gm 4 of the ECSF rigged also?

They also mention how he shot 97 Free Throws for the whole series but Lebron has a series where he shot 94 Free Throws & Kobe has a series where he shot 96 Free Throws.